Are Georgians culturally closer to Armenians or to North Caucasians?

[Rumata]

This thread is about culture. Not about genetics and anthropology.

By "North Caucasians" are meant typical North Caucasians like Circassians, Vaynakhs, Dagestanians and Ossetians too.

Please vote only if you have an idea on the subject.

[PAGANE]

Culture is largely determined by religion. For this reason, they are closer to the Armenians.

[Rumata]

Culture is largely determined by religion. For this reason, they are closer to the Armenians.
Do you know all these peoples well enough to draw this conclusion?

I don't deny the importance of religion but it's limited too. I don't think that for example Orthodox Karelians are closer to Bulgarians than Muslim Pomaks are.

P. S. Don't forget that a part of Ossetians and a small part of Circassians are Christian too.

[Hajimurad]

Georgians akin to Armenians culturally and mentally. They both are civilized compared to other Caucasians and have common history (under domination of Iranian empires and Bagratid united kingdom). Also Armenian and Georgian temples has conical roofs and their church leaders bore title of Catholicos.

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Rumata; 6400477] Знаете ли всички тези хора достатъчно добре, за да направите това заключение?

Не отричам значението на религията, но и тя е ограничена. Не ми се струва, че например православните карели са по-близки до българите, отколкото мюсюлманските помаци.

PS Не забравяйте, че част от осетинците и малка част от черкезите също са християни. [/ ЦИТАТ]


Yes, and in your words there is truth, but still all - Georgians, Armenians, Ossetians, Circassians, Azeri, Balkars, Karelians share one region - the Caucasus. For this reason, there are many similarities in cultural significance that are independent of religion - regional. But for those people who are Christian, closeness increases. Like us on the Balkans - a cultural tradition of the Balkans, with nuances according to religion. My husband is an Armenian

[Rumata]

Yes, and in your words there is truth, but still all - Georgians, Armenians, Ossetians, Circassians, Azeri, Balkars, Karelians share one region - the Caucasus. For this reason, there are many similarities in cultural significance that are independent of religion - regional. But for those people who are Christian, closeness increases. Like us on the Balkans - a cultural tradition of the Balkans, with nuances according to religion. My husband is an Armenian
Karelia is not in Caucasus and Armenia is on Lesser Caucasus separated from the Greater Caucasus. Let's not complicate the subject with Turkic peoples too.

https://d1softball.net/wp-content/uploads/caucasus-mountains-map.jpg

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Rumata; 6400502] Карелия не е в Кавказ, а Армения е на Малък Кавказ, отделен от Големия Кавказ. Нека не усложняваме темата и с тюркските народи.

https://d1softball.net/wp-content/uploads/caucasus-mountains-map.jpg[/ Цитат]

You are asking a question and I have shared my opinion. For more than a millennium, the region has been shaped by the cultural understanding of today's Caucasus. The cultures of the Turkic peoples are also intertwined to a great extent, and it is not right to divide them.

[Babak]

Culture is largely determined by religion. For this reason, they are closer to the Armenians.

By this logic, Pakis are culturally closer to arabs than to indians.

[Ford]

Very difficult question. I'm not an expert in any sense but by impression is that southern Caucasus has a sort of warmer med feel in mentality than north Caucasus. They're closer to northern Caucasus in terms of autochthonous culture; like clothing, dances, style of traditional music. But their mentality and way of life reminds me more of Armenians, maybe it's the shared religious ground.

[Yorgo]

To Armenians obviously, since both are Christians.

[Alenka]

If you ask me, I'd say they are closer to Armenians. This isn't really an informed guess though, just a hunch.
I don't know a whole lot about the Caucasus and it's people.

[Rumata]

To Armenians obviously, since both are Christians.

Are you trying to insult the Hemshin Armenians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemshin_peoples)?

[FinalFlash]

Are you trying to insult the Hemshin Armenians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemshin_peoples)?

Krasnodar Armenians as well as those specifically from Sochi and Abkhazia are largely descended from Hamshenahay and they are Christian. Muslim Hamshenahay were forcefully converted by the sword roughly 3 centuries or so ago.

To answer, the OP's question, Georgians are far closer to Armenians than to North Caucasians not because of religion, but other cultural aspects such as certain overlap in cuisine, architecture, genetics, either side being a part of another throughout various points in history etc.

[Rumata]

Krasnodar Armenians as well as those specifically from Sochi and Abkhazia are largely descended from Hamshenahay and they are Christian. Muslim Hamshenahay were forcefully converted by the sword roughly 3 centuries or so ago.

To answer, the OP's question, Georgians are far closer to Armenians than to North Caucasians not because of religion, but other cultural aspects such as certain overlap in cuisine, architecture, genetics, either side being a part of another throughout various points in history etc.

Thanks for the replying. Indeed the Wikipedia says that a part of Hemshin are Christian now. Strangelly, it doesn't mention the circumstances of the conversions though.


...
The details and the accompanying circumstances for the migrations and the conversions during the Ottoman era are not clearly known or documented.[40][41]

As a result of those developments, distinctive communities with the same generic name have also appeared in the vicinity of Hopa, Turkey as well as in the Caucasus. Those three communities are almost oblivious to one another's existence.[42]

The Hemshinli of Hemshin proper (also designated occasionally as western Hemshinli in publications) are Turkish-speaking Sunni Muslims who mostly live in the counties (ilçe) of Çamlıhemşin, Çayeli, İkizdere, Pazar and Hemşin in Turkey's Rize Province.[43]
The Hopa Hemshinli (also designated occasionally as eastern Hemshinli in publications) are Sunni Muslims and mostly live in the Hopa and Borçka counties of Turkey's Artvin Province. In addition to Turkish, they also speak a dialect of western Armenian they call "Homshetsma" or "Hemşince" in Turkish.[44]
Homshentsik (also designated occasionally as Northern Homshentsik in publications) are Christians who live in Georgia and in Russia's Krasnodar Krai. They speak Homshetsma as well.[45] There are also some Muslim Hamshentsi living in Georgia and Krasnodar[46] and some Hamshentsi elements amongst the Meskhetian Turks.[47]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemshin_peoples

[user_]

Not easy answer. Culture has many aspects. In terms of folklore, Georgians and Armenians are like from different planets despite being neighbors, North Cuacasians are a bit closer to Georgians. But when it comes to lifestyle, mentality etc it's opposite. Georgians are the most liberal and modern nation in Caucasus, Ossetians are next, followed by Armenians. So if we compare the lifestyle i guess Armenians are even closer to patriarchal North Caucasus, than Georgians are.

Also modern North Caucasus and Armenia are dominated by Russian culture, while Georgia has much more influences from the West.

[Rumata]

...
Also modern North Caucasus and Armenia are dominated by Russian culture, while Georgia has much more influences from the West.
Thanks for your opinion. But what is the source of Russian culture in Armenia now that Russians almost don't settle there? Afaik, Russians settle in Georgia more.

[user_]

Thanks for your opinion. But what is the source of Russian culture in Armenia now that Russians almost don't settle there? Afaik, Russians settle in Georgia more.

Armenians migrate to Russia and back, they bring modern Russian culture to Armenia. They have more contacts with north Caucasians, then Georgians have.

[Rumata]

Armenians migrate to Russia and back, they bring modern Russian culture to Armenia. They have more contacts with north Caucasians, then Georgians have.

I see. But I think that they rather stick to their ways regardless of place of residence. Also you should know the joke about Sochi being the capital of Armenia, ha-ha.

[Vožd]

Armenia, imo.

[user_]

I do not find Georgian culture really close neither to Armenian, nor to North Caucasian. It has totally different vibe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLV1nJgtErI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8hW_wBbvNM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBccj1uyGUo


p.s. I voted for Armenia :)

[Root]

native peoples of the North Caucasus have almost identical culture and mindset, extremely strong conservatism and tribalism inside the local societies compared to our lovely, silent and peaceful South Caucasian neighbors who had been ruled by monarchism a few centuries ago..

[klarji]

Mingrelians are closer to Abkhazians, Svans to Kharachay-Balkarians, Lazes to Hemshins.
There is also different aspects of culture and ethnopsychis. South Caucasus is warmer then North. People are more open, friendly, loud speaking and so on. While North Caucasians are like North people with less emotions.
But in majority Kartvelian world is like an island surrounded by non related cultures and peoples.
I don't feel much similarities neither with Armenians nor with Ossetians.
Also I don't see North Caucasus like one undividible region. There are Circassians, who lived in the low lands near Black Sea, had early feudalism. Though they are for me enough cold people and far they have high IQ, less tribal sociaty, like Sea people are ready for new changes and development. They also have a lot of G2 like Kartvelians. I see them closer then peoples of Dagestan and other peoples of the East Caucasus who were under Middle East culture.

[klarji]

What's about Armenians we have some difference mentality that make us not to love each other.
For example Ossetians are our historical enemies but in other ways we don't care about them. What's about Armenians they lived here for centuries and made a lot of money. They are like Jews, clever and purposeful. While we are more joyful, like singing, dancing. They are high IQ-ied people strong at science. We are strong at poetry and art. They have historically old historical sources while we have old poetry. So we don't like to graze on one pasture. We don't understand each other.

[klarji]

What's about North Caucasian tribalism, anarchism, and conservatism, we are divided for them by the Great Caucasus and have less connections. Think we will not understand each other well. Georgian youth is seeking itself in music, poetry, literature, theatre and a lot of thing. While I see North Caucasian especially it's East part main purpose is to be "like ancestors", marry someone, have children, and dance lezginka in Moscow. We have very different views of life. I think Moscow has such politics not to develop them. That's why there in Russian Federation Caucasian traditions are mythologised. Like ou ye, our tribal culture is specific you don't need any more. Lezginka is cool.

[Rumata]

... I think Moscow has such politics not to develop them. That's why there in Russian Federation Caucasian traditions are mythologised. Like ou ye, our tribal culture is specific you don't need any more. Lezginka is cool.

Thank you very much for your extended and honest reply. The one thing I disagree with I doubt Kremlin has so much influence on North Caucasian societies as to make them care too much about their traditions. I think it's ingrained in them internally. Kremlin could be interested in something opposite: like making them closer to "an average Russian citizen" which is easy to understand.

[Armenian Bishop]

I do not find Georgian culture really close neither to Armenian, nor to North Caucasian. It has totally different vibe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLV1nJgtErI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8hW_wBbvNM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBccj1uyGUo


p.s. I voted for Armenia :)

Regardless of whom overlaps more with Georgians, I have to say that I like Georgian Culture very much, and I'd probably be very happy there. Ideally (for me) it'd be great to have second residences in Georgia, Armenia, and Cyprus.

[klarji]

Thank you very much for your extended and honest reply. The one thing I disagree with I doubd Kremlin has so much influence on North Caucasian societies as to made them care too much about their traditions. I think it's ingrained in them internally. Kremlin could be interested in something opposite: like making them closer to "an average Russian citizen" which is easy to understand.

Their tribalism and conservatism is not more then that fact that they lived in tribal societies or very early feudalism systems until Russians came.
But they have been living in state for more then one century. But they are still living tribal societies live. It's very bad for them. They will not survive in the 21th century and tecnological world.
All metropole try not to develop its colonial lands.

[Armenian Bishop]

Georgia's ethnic population:
86.8 % Georgian
6.3 % Azeri
4.5% Armenian
2.3% Others

Others @2.3% include:
Russians
Ossetians
Yazidis
Ukrainians
Kists
Greeks

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gg.html

*Ethnic Origins can influence temperaments.
Azeris in Georgia probably account
for some hostility against Armenians.

[user_]

If North Caucasians had independent states, they would be more open-minded. Even Azerbaijan has more modern society, than North Caucasus.

One more thing why I find Armenians closer to us than North Caucasus is demography. Population in both countries are aging, like in west, median age for Georgians is 38, for Armenians 35 and for Dagestan 28.

I can imagine a confederation of Georgia with Armenia, but with Dagestan not really.

[klarji]

If North Caucasians had independent states, they would be more open-minded. Even Azerbaijan has more modern society, than North Caucasus.

One more thing why I find Armenians closer to us than North Caucasus is demography. Population in both countries are aging, like in west, median age for Georgians is 38, for Armenians 35 and for Dagestan 28.

I can imagine a confederation of Georgia with Armenia, but with Dagestan not really.

Reason 1)religion 2)socio-political evolution 3)modern political spheres
I know Turkish and Georgian Lazes. Today they are very different though they are one people. But they have lived different lives for centuries. So are Iran Georgians and Georgian Georgians.
Christian Dagestanis like Udi people. Whom they are closer to?
To Lezgins or Armenians with who they have one confession of Christianity? Who is to you closer Russians or Iran Georgians who we have not seen for 400 years?
We have background but we different ways of evolution.
10 years ago Russian movies were translated every New Year as they were too close for Georgian TV viewers. New generation like my nephew who was grown up on West movies watching it does not know any more on which minute he has to laugh or what they are about. Like Persia is a far Near East country for us, with exotic culture while 300 years ago our granpas knew Persian language and literature better then Georgian.

[klarji]

So whom are Georgians closer? Georgians are not closer even to Georgians themselves who have lived in other religions and socio-political societies like Turkey or Iran.
Caucasus is not stable region like Europe. It's under control of different empires and political unions who bought and bring still their religions and ideologies. Here was said Georgians are mostly open minded. Georgians are not open minded. But Georgia is under USA-EU political spheres and they brought here last 15 years Neoliberal ideology. That's all. While Arabs brought in Dagestan and Chechnya salafism after SSSR crushed.

[klarji]

Of course there are some background and mentality that you share with.
Georgians of modern Northern East Turkey live among Turks since 1628 when Ottomans conquered Southern Georgian Principality.
They are Muslims, surrounded now by Turks, Anatolian Turcomans, Kurds who migrated to their lands.
They are strange when you watch them now, their dances, songs etc influenced by for us far Turkish culture.
But when I met them in reality I discovered that they shared still with us specific Georgian behaviour and mentality. They are very open, friendly, like to talk a lot. In five minutes they can become your good friends, tell.everything about themselves and ask about health your parents that they have never seen.
Russian members will understand what I mean under this specific Georgian mentality. Lazes for example don't share such things thing..they much more cold and closed people
They have not that "Georgianism"
But they share some other things with us. I will upload ageing pics about role of Lazes in ethnogeneses of Pontic Greeks and Black Sea Turks where Laz character was good discribed.

[Root]

the NE/Caucasian population in the North East Caucasus and beyond is rapidly growing day by day, its inhabitants move to the north and west regions like Kalmykia, Stavropol krai, Astrakhan oblast and surrounding neighborhood, and populate the local empty places very quickly




https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Northeast_Caucasus_languages_map_en.svg/800px-Northeast_Caucasus_languages_map_en.svg.png






Stavropol krai

https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/acer120/36510962/478106/478106_original.png


Darganti

https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/acer120/36510962/478652/478652_original.png


Maharulal

https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/acer120/36510962/478421/478421_original.png



Nakh peoples are even more in the size of their population than the two above-mentioned indigenous ethnic groups combined

[Rumata]

the NE/Caucasian population in the North East Caucasus and beyond is rapidly growing day by day, its inhabitants move to the north and west regions like Kalmykia, Stavropol krai, Astrakhan oblast and surrounding neighborhood, and populate the local empty places very quickly

Nakh peoples are even more in the size of their population than the two above-mentioned indigenous ethnic groups combined
What a potentional mess in case shit hits the fan (let's hope it won't).

[Root]

What a potentional mess in case shit hits the fan (let's hope it won't).



it would really be fun, no one would feel lonely and no one would die of boredom xd

[klarji]

https://ibb.co/fFCZtSc

https://ibb.co/b63C7qV

Here is about Pontic Greeks and their "Caucasian" features. It must be from Colchian tribes of the region.
Lazes are known to be a bit dumbasses and funny. + The relative language make me to feel them closer then peoples of my religion/ political sphere/ evolution etc

[klarji]

So when I am asked who are closer who are closer Armenians or Ossetians I have no idea. That's no important for me. They are both neighbours. With one we share Southern character, history of antic and medieval Kingdoms, Christianity culture from Byzantium and with other some common in folk dances and songs.
What about common in background and common in "blood" that's is very important for us, I am sure only about people of Lazistan. Even if they have now different religion, ideological, political and cultural stratifications.

[Arsen_]

the NE/Caucasian population in the North East Caucasus and beyond is rapidly growing day by day, its inhabitants move to the north and west regions like Kalmykia, Stavropol krai, Astrakhan oblast and surrounding neighborhood, and populate the local empty places very quickly


These are very good processes and I really enjoy watching them. The more North Caucasians move to these lands, the more local Russians love and appreciate Armenians. :D

[Arsen_]

As for the topic I can say that Armenians from Armenia like Georgians and are almost unaware about existence of North Caucasians. There is only some vague idea about North Caucasians as some wild violent peoples. For example if someone in Armenia has wild character and behave violent and vengeful he may be nicknamed as Chechen or Pushtun. ;)

[Root]

These are very good processes and I really enjoy watching them. The more North Caucasians move to these lands, the more local Russians love and appreciate Armenians. :D





:lol: without these constant incidents occurring randomly life in Russia would totally be a boredom and depression... thats why and how the local peoples find different approaches to entertain themselves

[user_]

Although i have to say, that Chechen minority in Georgia is integrated in Georgian society very well, despite the fact that they live in isolated place Pankisi gorge. When you look at them speaking Georgian, without their religious clothing almost impossible to distinguish them from Georgians, they speak Georgian as native speakers. While Armenians, even from Tbilisi are easily distinguishable.

Chechens from Pankisi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iPth8bGNxA&t=82s

[user_]

But Georgia is under USA-EU political spheres and they brought here last 15 years Neoliberal ideology. That's all. While Arabs brought in Dagestan and Chechnya salafism after SSSR crushed.

There was no EU and USA influence in 1918-1921, but read Georgian constitution, Georgia was one of the first countries that gave to women rights to participate in elections.
First Georgian feminists: Barbara Jorjadze (1838-1895) Kato Mikeladze (1872-1942), Ekatherine Gabashvili (1851-1938), Christine Sharashidze( 1887-1937) and many others, were they influenced by Euroepan Union in 19-th century? :D Very important that most of Georgian women public figures in 19-th century came not from Tbilisi which was the most cosmopolitan city in Caucasus/Southern Russia, but from very central Georgia, Kutaisi with almost 100% Georgian population.

Georgian renaissance period and humanism ideas started in XI-XII centuries, long before Europe, and if not Mongols the whole Region of Caucasus would be different today.

[klarji]

As for the topic I can say that Armenians from Armenia like Georgians and are almost unaware about existence of North Caucasians. There is only some vague idea about North Caucasians as some wild violent peoples. For example if someone in Armenia has wild character and behave violent and vengeful he may be nicknamed as Chechen or Pushtun. ;)

We Georgians had our own tribes that lived in high mountains in tribal unions or early feudalism. We laugh at them though like their archaic things like pagan mythology, tribal organization with their bosses and so on. See in them our common precivilized past.
But on other side Armenians were the most developed nation in the Caucasus as after Turcomans migrated to their lands their nomad aristocrats took from local feudals their lands and settled there their nomad Turcoman peasants. So Armenians had since early time 15-16th century live modern capitalist live. They like Jews had no lands and their elite was or rich merchants or the Armenian Church and intelectuals from these classes.
While untill Russians came even the most developed Georgian tribes who had historically Kingdoms lived medivial feudalism life. For example, these Kingdoms had not professional army even in the 18th century. Local feudal lords during wars brought their subordinate noblemen and peasants of course if they accepted the main Lord - King as their sovereign. The whole economics and production (there were no factories) were in hands of Armenian diaspora. The first reason why Georgians and Armenians still did not like each other. Feudal and bourgeois classes nowhere loved each other but in Georgian Kindgoms it was also ethnic opposition.

[klarji]

There was no EU and USA influence in 1918-1921, but read Georgian constitution, Georgia was one of the first countries that gave to women rights to participate in elections.
First Georgian feminists: Barbara Jorjadze (1838-1895) Kato Mikeladze (1872-1942), Ekatherine Gabashvili (1851-1938), Christine Sharashidze( 1887-1937) and many others, were they influenced by Euroepan Union in 19-th century? :D Very important that most of Georgian women public figures in 19-th century came not from Tbilisi which was the most cosmopolitan city in Caucasus/Southern Russia, but from very central Georgia, Kutaisi with almost 100% Georgian population.

Georgian renaissance period and humanism ideas started in XI-XII centuries, long before Europe, and if not Mongols the whole Region of Caucasus would be different today.

Germany + communism ideas. Of course the mentality played their role. Black Sea Georgians liked the most the communist ideology and they even formed the socialist Guria Republic in 1905. While mountain Georgians were always true to national ideas and had partizan movements against Soviet occupation.

[klarji]

There was no EU and USA influence in 1918-1921, but read Georgian constitution, Georgia was one of the first countries that gave to women rights to participate in elections.
First Georgian feminists: Barbara Jorjadze (1838-1895) Kato Mikeladze (1872-1942), Ekatherine Gabashvili (1851-1938), Christine Sharashidze( 1887-1937) and many others, were they influenced by Euroepan Union in 19-th century? :D Very important that most of Georgian women public figures in 19-th century came not from Tbilisi which was the most cosmopolitan city in Caucasus/Southern Russia, but from very central Georgia, Kutaisi with almost 100% Georgian population.

Georgian renaissance period and humanism ideas started in XI-XII centuries, long before Europe, and if not Mongols the whole Region of Caucasus would be different today.

Germany + communism ideas. Of course the mentality played their role. Black Sea Georgians liked the most the communist ideology and they even formed the socialist Guria Republic in 1905. While mountain Georgians were always true to national ideas and had partizan movements against Soviet occupation.

[Root]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Thargamosids.JPG

Thargamos and his sons.
The order of the figures from left to right is: Movakan, Bardos, Kartlos, Haos, Lekos, Thargamos, Caucas, Egros. An opening folio of the Georgian Chronicles (Vakhtangiseuli redaction), 1700s.

[klarji]

As for the topic I can say that Armenians from Armenia like Georgians and are almost unaware about existence of North Caucasians. There is only some vague idea about North Caucasians as some wild violent peoples. For example if someone in Armenia has wild character and behave violent and vengeful he may be nicknamed as Chechen or Pushtun. ;)

Russian strategists know very well ethno mentality and.social situation in colonial peoples.
During Soviet era potency of Georgian youth was directed into criminal and drug addiction
As they knew that ethnomentality of Georgians had base and potention to be directed to. Abkhazians being inluenced by Georgians still live such live.
Whats about Eastern Muslim NCaucasians their youth potential is directed into religion fanatism and everyday conflicts. Of course Georgians had historical past and ethnomentality to make them criminals and druggers but it needed political support to make all nation live this life.

[user_]

Germany + communism ideas. Of course the mentality played their role. Black Sea Georgians liked the most the communist ideology and they even formed the socialist Guria Republic in 1905. While mountain Georgians were always true to national ideas and had partizan movements against Soviet occupation.

Telling this: "Georgians are not open minded. But Georgia is under USA-EU political spheres and they brought here last 15 years Neoliberal ideology" is not true and one to one with Russian antieuroepan propaganda. So western ideas came to Georgia not 15, but at least 150 years ago.
In XII century Georgia was a place where this "western ideas" were generated. Rustaveli wrote this words "Lion's whelps are equally lions, though female or male they be".

[klarji]

Telling this: "Georgians are not open minded. But Georgia is under USA-EU political spheres and they brought here last 15 years Neoliberal ideology" is not true and one to one with Russian antieuroepan propaganda. So western ideas came to Georgia not 15, but at least 150 years ago.
In XII century Georgia was a place where this "western ideas" were generated. Rustaveli wrote this words "Lion's whelps are equally lions, though female or male they be".

Byzantium, Christianity + high social role of woman in the West Caucasus, especially in the Kartvelo-Caucasian world.
Ok. You are right. Ethnomentality is formed also by geography and surrounded nature - sea, mountains, temperature, apple trees so on. But religion, historical evolution, political sphere stratificated it.

[Ford]

This turned out to be a very interesting thread.

We need more Kavkaz members here :)

[user_]

Byzantium, Christianity + high social role of woman in the West Caucasus, especially in the Kartvelo-Caucasian world.
Ok. You are right. Ethnomentality is formed also by geography and surrounded nature - sea, mountains, temperature, apple trees so on. But religion, historical evolution, political sphere stratificated it.

Agree about nature. West Caucasus is very green, with mild climate and people live in contact with forests. People are less aggressive, more open minded and women are emancipated. While Eastern Caucasus has dry climate, less forests and more conservative society.

When i say Georgians have liberal and open minded society, i can prove it with demographic statistic. Georgian demographic pyramid is almost identical with the pyramids of developed countries and it is in European spectrum, with low birth rates and aging population. Conservative society can't have low birth rates.

Lets take a look to demographic pyramids of Estonia, Georgia, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. All of them where in Soviet union but they have different demographic behavior.
Estonia and Georgia being on upper step of demographic transition

https://i.ibb.co/5jG9vrz/estonia.jpg (https://ibb.co/3F4sWp8)

https://i.ibb.co/yF3mVNc/georgia.jpg (https://ibb.co/SwLDJ64)

and Tajikistan with Uzbekistan on lower step.
https://i.ibb.co/rypbnz5/tajikistan.jpg (https://ibb.co/q1g0bcm)

https://i.ibb.co/4MpdbkP/uzbekistan.jpg (https://ibb.co/FJzVQpg)

[Root]

Agree about nature. West Caucasus is very green, with mild climate and people live in contact with forests. People are less aggressive, more open minded and women are emancipated. While Eastern Caucasus has dry climate, less forests and more conservative society.

When i say Georgians have liberal and open minded society, i can prove it with demographic statistic. Georgian demographic pyramid is almost identical with the pyramids of developed countries and it is in European spectrum, with low birth rates and aging population. Conservative society can't have low birth rates.

Lets take a look to demographic pyramids of Estonia, Georgia, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. All of them where in Soviet union but they have different demographic behavior.
Estonia and Georgia being on upper step of demographic transition

https://i.ibb.co/5jG9vrz/estonia.jpg (https://ibb.co/3F4sWp8)

https://i.ibb.co/yF3mVNc/georgia.jpg (https://ibb.co/SwLDJ64)

and Tajikistan with Uzbekistan on lower step.
https://i.ibb.co/rypbnz5/tajikistan.jpg (https://ibb.co/q1g0bcm)

https://i.ibb.co/4MpdbkP/uzbekistan.jpg (https://ibb.co/FJzVQpg)





we have lots of woods and valleys where the grass grows green, eastern parts are full of great wildlife diversity, amazing nature, unique landscapes and the climatic variations from dry to humid

[klarji]

All industrial societies have low demographic pyramids
High birth level have agricultural societies.
Here green high trees don't play great role.

[klarji]

In Victorian England there was very high birth level.
Charles Dickens had 10 children
Don't see any connection between demography and open mindness

[klarji]

we have lots of woods and valleys where the grass grows green, eastern parts are full of great wildlife diversity, amazing nature, unique landscapes and the climatic variations from dry to humid

I think the user ment subtropic climate in the Black Sea Caucasus
What's about liberalism the user is a liberalism supporter. Such kind of locals don't like local Christian, pro nationalistic Georgians. All conservative ultra religious societies of course are not liked, more are hated by them.
We had such situation in the 20th century - struggling between cosmopolitan, atheist communists and local Georgian nationalists. The story repeats. But you non Georgians who don't know the situation in Georgia will not understand.
The user wants to show that Georgian society is very liberal and "open minded". But more then half of population christens in front of churches. Though they are oppressed not like in SSSR but indirectly. They control massive media, the liberal centers have founded here a lot of "civil organization". They don't ban Christianity like it was done in Soviet Union directly but by propaganda they try to laugh at it, insult the religion and national values like it's in E Union . All attempts of defending they suppressed cruelly. As Christian Georgian I can advice not to pay great attention at liberals from any country including Georgia.

[Root]

I think the user ment subtropic climate in the Black Sea Caucasus





well, such subtropic climate and unique ecosystem you could find in the NE Caucasus if he meant it

[klarji]

well, such subtropic climate and unique ecosystem you could find in the NE Caucasus if he meant it

Subtropic climate is only in the Western Caucasus
I am from E Georgia that's central Caucasus like Ingushetis and Chechenya. We have just one climate but our is 10° warmer as it's on the South Slopes of the Caucasus
Of course W Georgia climate and nature is much more green just like jungles.
It's seem you have not been in the W Caucasus low lands. Central Caucasus is green and rich in difference of E Caucasus but W Caucasus is just like half jungles. Their air is very hard to breath. You will guess this air just you pass through that mountain system that divided W and E Georgias

[Root]

Subtropic climate is only in the Western Caucasus
I am from E Georgia that's central Caucasus like Ingushetis and Chechenya. We have just one climate but our is 10° warmer as it's on the South Slopes of the Caucasus
Of course W Georgia climate and nature is much more green just like jungles.
It's seem you have not been in the W Caucasus low lands. Central Caucasus is green and rich in difference of E Caucasus but W Caucasus is just like half jungles. Their air is very hard to breath. You will guess this air just you pass through that mountain system that divided W and E Georgias




have you ever heard about the subtropical forests in Dagestan?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwEpoJBqX0Q

[klarji]

have you ever heard about the subtropical forests in Dagestan?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwEpoJBqX0Q

Had no idea
I know climate zones in the Caucasus in general and don't know in details.
It's seems it's a little zone in Dagestan
What I know about the NE Caucasus that's it's dry and hot just like NS Caucasus (Azerbaijan).

[Root]

Had no idea
I know climate zones in the Caucasus in general and don't know in details.
It's seems it's a little zone in Dagestan
What I know about the NE Caucasus that's it's dry and hot just like NS Caucasus (Azerbaijan).



sound like myths.. I strongly recommend you to visit and explore the entire places in NE Caucasus. Very soon I'll post lots of photos in here

[klarji]

Shortly I don't care about climate zones of the Caucasus much
But I don't want here dividing the peoples into so called open minded and wild idiots. I close the theme and don't want one user to continue this dividing.

[user_]

we have lots of woods and valleys where the grass grows green, eastern parts are full of great wildlife diversity, amazing nature, unique landscapes and the climatic variations from dry to humid

I'm sure Eastern part is as beautiful as Western, whole Caucasus has amazing landscapes, with or without forests.
But obviously western Caucasus is much more forested than eastern part. Black sea facade of Caucasus gets a lot of rainfall. By eastern Caucasus i meant mostly Dagestan and Azerbaijan where climate is really dry.
https://i.ibb.co/hZxgMjW/Untitled.jpg (https://ibb.co/BrHfPxZ)

[user_]

The user wants to show that Georgian society is very liberal and "open minded". But more then half of population christens in front of churches. Though they are oppressed not like in SSSR but indirectly. They control massive media, the liberal centers have founded here a lot of "civil organization". They don't ban Christianity like it was done in Soviet Union directly but by propaganda they try to laugh at it, insult the religion and national values like it's in E Union . All attempts of defending they suppressed cruelly. As Christian Georgian I can advice not to pay great attention at liberals from any country including Georgia.

You can christen in front of churches, you can tell great toasts how you love god, but you cant's trick demography. And the demography says that Georgia has a post industrial society.

[Root]

I'm sure Eastern part is as beautiful as Western, whole Caucasus has amazing landscapes, with or without forests.
But obviously western Caucasus is much more forested than eastern part. Black sea facade of Caucasus gets a lot of rainfall. By eastern Caucasus i meant mostly Dagestan and Azerbaijan where climate is really dry.
https://i.ibb.co/hZxgMjW/Untitled.jpg (https://ibb.co/BrHfPxZ)




speaking of nature and landscapes, west Caucasian Adygea looks like the states of USA like Maine, Massachusetts or New Hampshire when east Caucasian Dagestan reminds a lot of the states of USA like Arizona, Texas or New Mexico


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/USA_map_of_K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification.svg/704px-USA_map_of_K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification.svg. png


https://newengland.com/wp-content/uploads/most-beautiful-places-in-maine-og.jpg

http://t.wallpaperweb.org/wallpaper/nature/1600x1200/On_the_Road_Again_Monument_Valley_Arizona.jpg

[klarji]

You can christen in front of churches, you can tell great toasts how you love god, but you cant's trick demography. And the demography says that Georgia has a post industrial society.

Yes, just like we are industrial society and not open minded
When they become industrial their demography will become also industrial and also so called open minded. Open mindness or individualism is part of industrial societies. While agricultural societies control much their members. How I see you tell that some people are genetically dumbasses. They are not dumbasses genetically. Just their societies are still agricultural.

[klarji]

What's about the God in agricultural societies God is everywhere. In normal industrial societies is just private choice of human beings. But only leftist clowns ban it or try to abolish it at all.
You in agricultural society you have to say toasts. While in industrial you can say or not. It's your choice. The society does not control you any more. But economical or socio-cultutal leftists want to take control over societies. Make them do what the ideology wants from them. These ideologies are much more then agricultural societies. For example, Communists want people to live in communas like tribal societies, be all one. There is no choice you believe in God or not as in preindustrial societies. But you have another choice. You have not to be believe in it while in preindustrial societies you have one choice to believe.

[The Lawspeaker]

They are probably closest to other hillbillies, yokels and rednecks. Ooh wait... wrong Georgia !

[user_]

How I see you tell that some people are genetically dumbasses. They are not dumbasses genetically. Just their societies are still agricultural.
Nope, i'm saying that different societies are on different levels of demographic transition and you feel closer to the ones that have same demographic behavior, that means you share the values with them.

[klarji]

Nope, i'm saying that different societies are on different levels of demographic transition and you feel closer to the ones that have same demographic behavior, that means you share the values with them.

We are on different levels of evolution and not demographic transition )
Of course Azerbaijanies Armenians and even Chinese and Brazilian are closer then.

[klarji]

In a result Georgians are closer neither to Armenians nor to North Caucasians.
Georgians are poetic artistic people. Armenians clever and pragmatic. N Caucasians self-controlled and much more cold. Imho
Of course in folk culture Georgians are closer to North Caucasians then to Armenians and Azerbaijanians.
But ethomentalitily Georgians are far from them too.
Georgians

Georgians

https://youtu.be/geG-xdP-WQg

N Caucasians

https://youtu.be/-U334OrtmoI

Armenians
https://youtu.be/4xt11pOA-dg

[user_]

In a result Georgians are closer neither to Armenians nor to North Caucasians.
Georgians are poetic artistic people. Armenians clever and pragmatic. N Caucasians self-controlled and much more cold. Imho
Of course in folk culture Georgians are closer to North Caucasians then to Armenians and Azerbaijanians.
But ethomentalitily Georgians are far from them too.

You mean Georgians and North Caucasian are not clever? :D
I agree that Armenians have that jewish kind of skills in business and trading.

[klarji]

You mean Georgians and North Caucasian are not clever? :D
I agree that Armenians have that jewish kind of skills in business and trading.

Of course Georgians are not clever
To have high IQ and understand physics does not mean to be clever.

[Arsen_]

In a result Georgians are closer neither to Armenians nor to North Caucasians.
Georgians are poetic artistic people. Armenians clever and pragmatic. N Caucasians self-controlled and much more cold. Imho
Of course in folk culture Georgians are closer to North Caucasians then to Armenians and Azerbaijanians.
But ethomentalitily Georgians are far from them too.


I wonder if you would get in some hypothetical situation where there were no Georgians around and you had to choose either Armenian or North Caucasian to marry, who would you choose? :)

[user_]

Of course Georgians are not clever
To have high IQ and understand physics does not mean to be clever.

Both Armenian and Georgian population have IQ higher than average in the world ))

[klarji]

Both Armenian and Georgian population have IQ higher than average in the world ))

To have high IQ and understand algebra formulas well does not mean to be clever. Armenians made the world to recognize their genocide just after 100 years while Russians ethnic cleansed and annihilated Georgian population just 30 and 10 years ago but Russian propaganda machine made Georgians aggressors and fascists. And Georgians can not defend themselves.
When Russia attacked Ukraine and tried to tell the same fairy tales about Ukrainian aggressors and fascists Ukrainian side just mixed Russians and their propaganda with shit.
Georgians are not clever. Their are dumbasses. Ossetians used Russians and to broaden Ossetia, take Georgian villages and towns with Russian tanks, their historical.towers and churches for 100 years. Read Javakhiahvili and his novel written 100 years ago. There is well shown how clever Georgians are. Especially compared with their neighbours. We are dumbass people that is tricked by every neighbour. Our future is to dissapear and not because Russians or Ossetians are bad. Just because nation that can not defend itself will disappear.

[klarji]

Ossetians, Armenians, Russians, Abkhazians etc they all have their own strategy for 100 years what to do, what is their next tactical step. Only Georgians have no idea what to do or what is national strategy in general. The only thing they can do is to scream and be sure that "they (Christian brothers, European brothers, American brothers and so on brothers) will help.

[Reis-i Cumhur]

Armenians made the world to recognize their genocide just after 100 years
It's not genocide btw.Who said that ?
The only recognized genocide is Jewish genocide the rest of fairytales mean nothing

[klarji]

It's not genocide btw.Who said that ?
The only recognized genocide is Jewish genocide the rest of fairytales mean nothing

If the made many states and their provinces to recognize non genocide as genocide it just make them more clever.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_recognition

[Ford]

Ossetians, Armenians, Russians, Abkhazians etc they all have their own strategy for 100 years what to do, what is their next tactical step. Only Georgians have no idea what to do or what is national strategy in general. The only thing they can do is to scream and be sure that "they (Christian brothers, European brothers, American brothers and so on brothers) will help.

Have you watched this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjF4jiOOdPY

[PaleoEuropean]

I would say Georgia is like Azer, it's more of a third party.

[Rumata]

I really hope this thread will remain predominantly about culture and mentality rather than about politics and political smartassness.

[Ford]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCIRhY0tljc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-NNZDkLIcM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63XcX1SuBPI

[klarji]

I really hope this thread will remain predominantly about culture and mentality rather than about politics and political smartassness.

It's not only political smartness. Russian sources of the 19th century that describe Caucasian peoples about Georgian write that they are very silly and naive.

"Г. отличаются веселым, общительным и симпатичным характером; они привязаны к отечеству и привержены к старине, к древним преданиям и обычаям; доверчивы и откровенны; легковерны иногда до легкомыслия; добродушны, впечатлительны, гостеприимны; любят песни, пляску и зрелища (борьба) и с удовольствием веселятся в кругу знакомых. К отрицательным чертам характера Г. относятся недостаток энергии и предприимчивости, леность и отчасти косность, чем в значительной степени объясняется их экономическая зависимость от армян, более решительных и предприимчивых."

https://ru.m.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D0%A1%D0%91%D0%95/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B

[Rumata]

It's not only political smartness. Russian sources of the 19th century that describe Caucasian peoples about Georgian write that they are very silly and naive.

"Г. отличаются веселым, общительным и симпатичным характером; они привязаны к отечеству и привержены к старине, к древним преданиям и обычаям; доверчивы и откровенны; легковерны иногда до легкомыслия; добродушны, впечатлительны, гостеприимны; любят песни, пляску и зрелища (борьба) и с удовольствием веселятся в кругу знакомых. К отрицательным чертам характера Г. относятся недостаток энергии и предприимчивости, леность и отчасти косность, чем в значительной степени объясняется их экономическая зависимость от армян, более решительных и предприимчивых."

https://ru.m.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D0%A1%D0%91%D0%95/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B
It doesn't say about silliness. It says about laziness and shortness of initiative instead.

[Armenian Bishop]

I really hope this thread will remain predominantly about culture and mentality rather than about politics and political smartassness.

Nope, as far as I'm concerned, a genuine understanding of politics and history can give us a healthy awareness about ourselves. So, I completely disagree about that -- anyway, cheers and happy holidays.

[Rumata]

Nope, as far as I'm concerned, a genuine understanding of politics and history can give us a healthy awareness about ourselves. So, I completely disagree about that -- anyway, cheers and happy holidays.
I'm sure that you know what "off-topic" is. So thanks again for proving not to be "silly and naive" (joke) and let's stay on topic here.

[Armenian Bishop]

I'm sure that you know what "off-topic" is. So thanks again for proving not to be "silly and naive" (joke) and let's stay on topic here.

I was simply responding to your comment. You said that you want to stay away from politics, and I said that politics can be a good thing to discuss. Having said that, I don't recall that I discussed politics in this thread. So, why do you accuse me of being off topic?!?

[Rumata]

I was simply responding to your comment. You said that you want to stay away from politics, and I said that politics can be a good thing to discuss. Having said that, I don't recall that I discussed politics in this thread. So, why do you accuse me of being off topic?!?
It all went differently :)
1. I said I hoped the thread will remain predominantly about culture and mentality because such is its subject. And I said it because of the posts by klarji, not yours.
2. Then you said this:

Nope, as far as I'm concerned, a genuine understanding of politics and history can give us a healthy awareness about ourselves. So, I completely disagree about that -- anyway, cheers and happy holidays.

But to discuss politics there's enough room on this forum. It's better to do it in a separate thread rather than here unless the idea is closely interwoven with culture and mentality.

[Armenian Bishop]

Misread the Post, so I deleted my reply. :ranger

[klarji]

It doesn't say about silliness. It says about laziness and shortness of initiative instead.

I know Russian enough well to understand that you translated only the second part

[hotrod]

they would be culturally incompatible with islamic nations

[Rumata]

I know Russian enough well to understand that you translated only the second part
Again, there's no word about being "silly". The most close word by meaning is cheatable. So don't try to cheat :thumb001:



they would be culturally incompatible with islamic nations
Just don't forget a part of Georgians are still Muslim.

[hotrod]

Mashallah

[klarji]

Again, there's no word about being "silly". The most close word by meaning is cheatable. So don't try to cheat :thumb001:


trustful, frank, cheatable, thoughtless, good-natured

[klarji]

here are also characteristics of Armenians and Georgians written by Russian primeminister in Russian empire Sergei Witte born and grown up in the Caucasus, Tiflis

"Вообще говоря между офицерами-туземцами, конечно, существует различие. Между армянами было очень много храбрых военных: Бебутов - был армянин, Лазарев был также армянин; между ними люди очень умные, хотя все военные туземцы были люди почти что необразованные или полуобразованные. Грузины же по своей натуре, очень не умные и тупые, но зато недостаток ума у них сравнительно с армянами вознаграждается особою рыцарскою честью. Все грузины также, как и имеретины, отличались громадною храбростью."

http://az.lib.ru/w/witte_s_j/text_0010.shtml


so there is a great difference between Armenians and Georgians, and more they are not only different but they make great contrast to each other because of it they never loved each other.

[klarji]

that was well described by French jeweller and traveller of the 17th century Jean Chardin.

'You shall meet here in this country (Kartli Kingdom) with Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Turks, Persians, Indians, Tartars, Muscovites and Europeans. The Armenians are so numerous that they exceed the Georgians. They are also wealthier and for the most part supply all the small offices and mean employments. But the Georgians are far stronger, naughtier, more vain and more pompous. The difference between their spirits, manners and beliefs has caused a very great enmity between them. They mutually hate one another, and never marry into one another families. The Georgians are particularly disdainful towards the Armenians who are looked upon much about the same way as the Jews are in Europe.’

I dont write about thoughless, careless, naive and even stupid (according to Witte), also vain, haughty theatralic Georgians and on other purposeful hardworking money loving and thrifty Armenians. And you just ask who are Georgians closer to Armenians or somebody else? Georgians just will hand themselves not to be like Armenians, they are for centuries like cat and mouse hating each other for their contrastive habits and characters.

[Nakhchi]

Id say they are closer to Armenians than North Caucasians due to the religion since most North Caucasians are Muslim.

[klarji]

Id say they are closer to Armenians than North Caucasians due to the religion since most North Caucasians are Muslim.


Ossetians and Abkhazians are then closer to Armenians then to Muslim N Caucasians
I dont think Georgians are close to N Caucasians, They are from distinctive language families but for me it's strange that Abkhazians could be closer to Armenians then to Kabardas because of religion or Svans closer to Armenians then to Lazes because of religion. I don't mean ultra salafit societies who deny national traditions and characteristics and try to live only Muslim life or shortly are just like Arabs. Such salafit societies are more in Chechenya and Dagestan then in Circassia or Lazistan..I knew only one salafa Laz. And know somes in Adjara. They are just like Arabs though look like Georgians. They are Georgians of course but by the way they live they are closer to Arabs and the most part of Georgians are closer to Armenians.

Anyway I don't see this question right. It's look for me like whom are Georgians closer culturally to Japanese or Mongolians? Just three different cultures of different origin.

[Nakhchi]

Ossetians and Abkhazians are then closer to Armenians then to Muslim N Caucasians
I dont think Georgians are close to N Caucasians, They are from distinctive language families but for me it's strange that Abkhazians could be closer to Armenians then to Kabardas because of religion or Svans closer to Armenians then to Lazes because of religion. I don't mean ultra salafit societies who deny national traditions and characteristics and try to live only Muslim life or shortly are just like Arabs. Such salafit societies are more in Chechenya and Dagestan then in Circassia or Lazistan..I knew only one salafa Laz. And know somes in Adjara. They are just like Arabs though look like Georgians. They are Georgians of course but by the way they live they are closer to Arabs and the most part of Georgians are closer to Armenians.

Anyway I don't see this question right. It's look for me like whom are Georgians closer culturally to Japanese or Mongolians? Just three different cultures of different origin.

Abkhazians are technically South Caucasians geographically and yeah i believe North Ossetians would be closer to Armenians than Chechens. I can see Armenians, Georgians, Ossetians sitting down and drinking in a bar or having similar celebrations while Chechens and Dags are much more conservative. There are a lot of traditions that would seem weird to Georgians in the North Caucasus than in Armenia for example. I think a Georgian would feel "More at home" in Armenia than Chechnya.

[Rumata]

Anyway I don't see this question right. It's look for me like whom are Georgians closer culturally to Japanese or Mongolians? Just three different cultures of different origin.
Unlike Mongolians, Circassians share some dances and clothing with Georgians. It seems to me that their mentality isn't so much different either.
On the other hand, Armenians have been most close neighbours of Georgians for a long time.

[klarji]

Abkhazians are technically South Caucasians geographically and yeah i believe North Ossetians would be closer to Armenians than Chechens. I can see Armenians, Georgians, Ossetians sitting down and drinking in a bar or having similar celebrations while Chechens and Dags are much more conservative. There are a lot of traditions that would seem weird to Georgians in the North Caucasus than in Armenia for example. I think a Georgian would feel "More at home" in Armenia than Chechnya.

Ok. I understand. I ment folk culture, ethnomentality, people appearance. Armenians are quite far from us. I see them like other ethnic minorities in Georgia - like Greeks, Kurds, Yezidis, Russians etc.
But I understand now what you mean. You are right in that way that I would not feel very comfortable in the ultra Muslim society + N Caucasian rules.

There are some Chechens who like Georgian mountain archaic tribes like Khevsurs, Tushi, Mtiulians even Svans and like to prove that they are Georginized Nakhes though knowing Nakhes and their self-controlled style of life with rules and etc and noisy and ��-may-care neglect style of their life (Georgian mountain peoples) they are very typical Georgians. The only thing they are similar to Nakhes is that fact that in the high mountains Georgians also lived in tribal communities and had no Kingdoms.

[klarji]

Ok. I understand. I ment folk culture, ethnomentality, people appearance. Armenians are quite far from us. I see them like other ethnic minorities in Georgia - like Greeks, Kurds, Yezidis, Russians etc.
But I understand now what you mean. You are right in that way that I would not feel very comfortable in the ultra Muslim society + N Caucasian rules.

There are some Chechens who like Georgian mountain archaic tribes like Khevsurs, Tushi, Mtiulians even Svans and like to prove that they are Georginized Nakhes though knowing Nakhes and their self-controlled style of life with rules and etc and noisy and ��-may-care neglect style of their life their are very typical Georgians. The only thing they are similar to Nakhes is that fact that in the high mountains Georgians also lived in tribal communities and had no Kingdoms.

Zisserman who described Khevsurians tells us that there smoke everybody even children and women. 12 year old boy can call his father by his name standing in the center of the village surrounded by other men and say:"Give me tobacco." It was surprising even for Russian such behaviour. I say nothing about N Caucasians who have rules like wife has no right to call her husband by his name or talk to his parents.

[FinalFlash]

Abkhazians are very close to Svanetians, Megrelians, and Imeretians. They're virtually of the same stock. Other subgroups of Georgians do have some genetic discrepancies to the aformentioned.

[Nakhchi]

Ok. I understand. I ment folk culture, ethnomentality, people appearance. Armenians are quite far from us. I see them like other ethnic minorities in Georgia - like Greeks, Kurds, Yezidis, Russians etc.
But I understand now what you mean. You are right in that way that I would not feel very comfortable in the ultra Muslim society + N Caucasian rules.

There are some Chechens who like Georgian mountain archaic tribes like Khevsurs, Tushi, Mtiulians even Svans and like to prove that they are Georginized Nakhes though knowing Nakhes and their self-controlled style of life with rules and etc and noisy and ��-may-care neglect style of their life (Georgian mountain peoples) they are very typical Georgians. The only thing they are similar to Nakhes is that fact that in the high mountains Georgians also lived in tribal communities and had no Kingdoms.

Yeah in many ways Georgians are closer to Nakhs like in appearance and we were once probably closer than today. Many Southern Chechen tribes like M'aisti, Melhi and Hildeha had closer connections to North Georgians and were very similar in culture and religion but that died down after we accepted Islam. Some Chechen tribes call areas in Northern Georgia their ancestral home like Chantio in Tusheti or Chartali and i think many north Georgians share genetically similarities to Chechens since even Kartlis Tskhoverba mentions that half of the Chechen population (presumabely in 200BC) settled from Tusheti all the way to Svaneti.

[Rumata]

Abkhazians are very close to Svanetians, Megrelians, and Imeretians. They're virtually of the same stock. Other subgroups of Georgians do have some genetic discrepancies to the aformentioned.

Stop genetics in this thread.


This thread is about culture. Not about genetics and anthropology.

[Nakhchi]

Zisserman who described Khevsurians tells us that there smoke everybody even children and women. 12 year old boy can call his father by his name standing in the center of the village surrounded by other men and say:"Give me tobacco." It was surprising even for Russian such behaviour. I say nothing about N Caucasians who have rules like wife has no right to call her husband by his name or talk to his parents.

Yeah i have heard of many weird traditions of Khevsurs :,) interesting subgroup of Georgians. Wife is allowed to talk to the husbands parents but is not allowed to mention the name of the parents, husband or family members (same as husband is not allowed to mention the name of the wife publicly).

[FinalFlash]

Stop genetics in this thread.

I'm simply stating that Colchians probably do have cultural dissimilarity to Iberians on top of genetics.

[Rumata]

I'm simply stating that Colchians probably do have cultural dissimilarity to Iberians on top of genetics.

It's indeed interesting if Colchians are different from other Georgians mentally and culturally and how exactly.

[klarji]

Yeah i have heard of many weird traditions of Khevsurs :,) interesting subgroup of Georgians. Wife is allowed to talk to the husbands parents but is not allowed to mention the name of the parents, husband or family members (same as husband is not allowed to mention the name of the wife publicly).
At first parents have "to open her tongue."
Ps Khevsurs were just very wild. They had shamans, pagan priests and mythology much more free relations between genders.
But were also very interesting in other ways. They have for example very philosophical poetry and their dialect itself is very poetic and powerful.

[klarji]

It's indeed interesting if Colchians are different from other Georgians mentally and culturally and how exactly.
They are enoigh different. They are very clever, sly, active, like money but not like Armenians but in their way. Armenians like to work hard and like to keep their money while Colchians like to make money more creatively, criminal is not excluded. To keep them? Of course no. They are too haughty and respect aesthetics. They are very emotional and temperamental but less stubborns then Georgians. Good diplomats. Like each other and are very solid. (In difference of Georgians). Women played great role and often ruled their families.

[klarji]

Culturally not very much - same pholiphony Music and dances . I don't mean Lazes. They are much influenced by Greeks. But mentally they Mingrelians and Lazes are very similar. Lazes are just mountain variation of Mingrelians.

[Frowning Man]

I think the Georgians are no closer to either the Armenians or the North Caucasians. Completely different people.

[brennus dux gallorum]

By this logic, Pakis are culturally closer to arabs than to indians.

Believe it or not, to an extent they are.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Culturally not very much - same pholiphony Music and dances . I don't mean Lazes. They are much influenced by Greeks. But mentally they Mingrelians and Lazes are very similar. Lazes are just mountain variation of Mingrelians.

By Greeks you likely mean the Greeks of Caucasus, what we call here "rossopontioi" these Greeks have little to do with Greeks proper and even though they emigrated to Greece in 90s they're still not more assimilated into society than Nigerians are

So technically they don't have Greek influence :D

[Rabbit Hole]

On PCA charts I believe that Armenians group together with Georgians and Azeribaijanis I would of thought apart from the Armenoid and Mongoloid traits that those ethnic groups can have obviously.

[Babak]

Believe it or not, to an extent they are.

Yea i understand but they're still culturally much closer to indians tbh. I myself feel much closer to turks, azerbaijanis and afghans than to any arab population

[Armenian Bishop]

I do not find Georgian culture really close neither to Armenian, nor to North Caucasian. It has totally different vibe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLV1nJgtErI

p.s. I voted for Armenia :)

It makes me sad to think of how happy I could be singing over a cup of tea or coffee with folks like that. I love Georgians.

[klarji]

I think the Georgians are no closer to either the Armenians or the North Caucasians. Completely different people.

My opinion changded
Modern Chechens are much influenced by Islam. They are now like Saudi Arabia Arabians.
Georgians of Georgia are much closer to Armenians of course. They are like Southern European peoples.
Of course they are not identical to them but Christianity makes them closer to Europeans with local cultural originalities.
While Muslim Caucasus is more cultural part of Muslim Near East

[Root]

My opinion changded
Modern Chechens are much influenced by Islam. They are now like Saudi Arabia Arabians.
Georgians of Georgia are much closer to Armenians of course. They are like Southern European peoples.
Of course they are not identical to them but Christianity makes them closer to Europeans with local cultural originalities.
While Muslim Caucasus is more cultural part of Muslim Near East




yow genatsvale, my dear Christian near easterner, what about that we're gonna start to say you are like now turks, jews and assyrians?

[klarji]

yow genatsvale, my dear Christian near easterner, what about that we're gonna start to say you are like now turks, jews and assyrians?

I would have no problem my dear
Georgians from Tbilisi and Turks from big Turkish cities will have much in common living half secular lives.
Same about not deep religious Jews and Assyrians are Christians

[Frowning Man]

yow genatsvale, my dear Christian near easterner, what about that we're gonna start to say you are like now turks, jews and assyrians?


Do I look like Jews, Turks and Assyrians too?

[Root]

Do I look like Jews, Turks and Assyrians too?




I could classify you if you would like to in the taxonomy section

[klarji]

Here in Georgia live Kists (Georgian Chechens). They were traditional Muslims and we were much closer then to Armenians. Their older generation and ours are still closer. But now salafism spread among them. And they live very severe Islam. Their youth leave for Saudi Arabia and are taught there. Then they come back and are much influenced by Arabian culture.

[Frowning Man]

I could classify you if you would like to in the taxonomy section


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?319671-Classify-this-guy-please

If not difficult to classify me. I already created a topic and asked me to classify. The opinion of a person from the Caucasus is interesting.

[Root]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?319671-Classify-this-guy-please

If not difficult to classify me. I already created a topic and asked me to classify. The opinion of a person from the Caucasus is interesting.





a typical example of Mtebid/CM

[klarji]

a typical example of Mtebid/CM

What is CM?
Frowning Man does not look like Georgian or looks like Georgian mixed with Northern.

@Frowning Man do you have Slavic/Germanic so on ancestors?

[Frowning Man]

a typical example of Mtebid/CM


I do not understand the classification. Mtebid = cromanid? Or do I have Mtebid + Cromanoid?

[Root]

What is CM?
Frowning Man does not look like Georgian or looks like Georgian mixed with Northern.

@Frowning Man do you have Slavic/Germanic so on ancestors?



he's just an average looking mountain inhabitant from Georgia





I do not understand the classification. Mtebid = cromanid? Or do I have Mtebid + Cromanoid?



other definition of Mtebid is Kavkasioni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northcaucasian_race and CM means CroMagnoid

you're Mtebid with CM influence

[Frowning Man]

What is CM?
Frowning Man does not look like Georgian or looks like Georgian mixed with Northern.

@Frowning Man do you have Slavic/Germanic so on ancestors?

I do not look like a Georgian? It's a shame. I am a purebred Georgian from western Georgia. Megrell. Strange I live in Russia, all Russians (Slavs) say that I look like a typical Caucasian (Georgian, Chechen, Dagestan, Ossetian, Turkish, Iranian. They told me that I do not look like Europeans. It's funny.

[klarji]

I do not look like a Georgian? It's a shame. I am a purebred Georgian from western Georgia. Megrell. Strange I live in Russia, all Russians (Slavs) say that I look like a typical Caucasian (Georgian, Chechen, Dagestan, Ossetian, Turkish, Iranian. They told me that I do not look like Europeans. It's funny.

You have salafi beard. I notice it now..fuu. hating it :bored:
Because you look strange
Make normal Georgian beard

[Frowning Man]

You have salafi beard. I notice it now..fuu. hating it :bored:
Because you look strange
Make normal Georgian beard

I don’t have such a thick beard. I can’t make a normal Georgian beard.

[klarji]

he's just an average looking mountain inhabitant from Georgia








other definition of Mtebid is Kavkasioni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northcaucasian_race and CM means CroMagnoid

you're Mtebid with CM influence

Mtebid and NorthCaucasian types are not same
They are types from different antropology theories.
First type is known in Western antropology school while NorthCaucasion / Kavkasionski type is known in Russian/Soviet antropology school.

[klarji]

On Western forums is not known "Kavkasionski tip" as it's Soviet school typology
https://antropology.academic.ru/621/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4

[Arsen_]

It makes me sad to think of how happy I could be singing over a cup of tea or coffee with folks like that. I love Georgians.

You could be singing over a cup of tea with Armenians as well! :)

Look how Armenians at a regular tea party do even better - not only sing but also dance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7249U3Y7Wc

[Root]

Mtebid and NorthCaucasian types are not same
They are types from different antropology theories.
First type is known in Western antropology school while NorthCaucasion / Kavkasionski type is known in Russian/Soviet antropology school.



Source? As far as I know Caucasid(Kavkasioni) is equivalent to Mtebid, and also Mtebid was invented by Agrippa, a known user among anthrocommunities

[klarji]

Source? As far as I know Caucasid(Kavkasioni) is equivalent to Mtebid, and also Mtebid was invented by Agrippa, a known user among anthrocommunities
No
By Russian classification we Georgians belong to different or mixed types. While by Europeans we are mostly Mtebids.
And Mtebids are mountain Caucasian
Taurids.
https://antropology.academic.ru/621/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4

[klarji]

There are different classification and what I see in modern Europe and Russian forums are used different types.
Russians don't know Taurids at all.

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D 0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0% B5_%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BF%D1%8B_%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%80%D0% BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9 _%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8B

[klarji]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2890963784325441&id=100002355423786

We Georgians are cooler in singing
Don't compare :p

[Arsen_]

We Georgians are cooler in singing
Don't compare :p

I agree, Georgians are brilliant in singing. :)

But honestly I personally like the most this type of Georgian songs that I never get tired of to listen to.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwgSC4ELRVU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXcQc6c40zc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1-TsU-eFY4

[Root]

No
By Russian classification we Georgians belong to different or mixed types. While by Europeans we are mostly Mtebids.
And Mtebids are mountain Caucasian
Taurids.
https://antropology.academic.ru/621/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4





an average modern European, American and Russian(exception those adults who were born and grown up in USSR) is almost completely ignorant about phenotypic diversity in Georgia. In general, Georgians are Pontids, Alpinids and Mtebids

[Frowning Man]

an average modern European, American and Russian(exception those adults who were born and grown up in USSR) is almost completely ignorant about phenotypic diversity in Georgia. In general, Georgians are Pontids, Alpinids and Mtebids

Are cromanide, dinaride, norid, or nordid common among Georgians?

[Root]

Are cromanide, dinaride, norid, or nordid common among Georgians?




I have seen tons of published pics of ethnic Georgians in another thread, among the crowd mostly Pontids, Alpinids and Mtebids.. blue eyes and blonde hair won't turn you into Nordid or Norid, it's just called depigmentation

[klarji]

an average modern European, American and Russian(exception those adults who were born and grown up in USSR) is almost completely ignorant about phenotypic diversity in Georgia. In general, Georgians are Pontids, Alpinids and Mtebids

Lol I don't mean average European or Russian
But those who are interested in antropology

[klarji]

I agree, Georgians are brilliant in singing. :)

But honestly I personally like the most this type of Georgian songs that I never get tired of to listen to.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwgSC4ELRVU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXcQc6c40zc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1-TsU-eFY4

That's Tbilisi folk
Tbilisi was populated mostly by Armenians in the 19th century
It's their heritage Tbilisian Armenians
There are also.Armenian.churches old houses and so on I. Tbilisi of Armenian origin
Also Tbilisian Georgian dialect was much influenced by Armenian

[klarji]

The second one that I posted is influenced by Italian opera an d music
When the first opera was opened in Tbilisi in the 19th century Georgian aristocracy liked it very much and parallels of Armenian duduk there was created Europeanised Georgian music
Classical Georgian folk is like this https://youtu.be/gnkXkWNhayM

[Root]

Lol I don't mean average European or Russian
But those who are interested in antropology



in this particular case many people around this board could easily answer a certain question regarding phenotype/anthropology without making a mistake, but they have to visit at least once the country and tell others based on their real experience how different they look than viewing the images through the pixels and dots on the computer screen

[Frowning Man]

I have seen tons of published pics of ethnic Georgians in another thread, among the crowd mostly Pontids, Alpinids and Mtebids.. blue eyes and blonde hair won't turn you into Nordid or Norid, it's just called depigmentation

I did not say and did not mean that the Georgians are Nordids or Norids. I just asked, because I was interested. Are there such types not typical for the Caucasus in Georgia.

[Aileron]

Armenians imho
North Caucasians are mostly muslims and have their own culture

[Root]

I did not say and did not mean that the Georgians are Nordids or Norids. I just asked, because I was interested. Are there such types not typical for the Caucasus in Georgia.



Norids and Nordids are atypical and foreign in the Caucasus as whole

[klarji]

Norids and Nordids are atypical and foreign in the Caucasus as whole

Heil Hitlerashvili
Are you sure?

[Root]

Heil Hitlerashvili
Are you sure?


Sieg Heilidze

Certainly

[klarji]

Sieg Heilidze

Certainly

Ч1ара ч1ога мерза бу :rolleyes:;)

[klarji]

Sieg Heilidze

Certainly

Ч1ара ч1ога мерза бу :rolleyes:;)

[klarji]

Also, the South Caucasus is region were states were founded in very ancient times since Colchis.
While in the North Caucasus there were no states but tibal unions even till Russian came
So Georgians Armenians and Azerbaijanians have much more common as national ethnoses.
As Christians Georgians and Armenians are closer. Also Ossetians Abkhazians.
What's about folk culture Ossetians and Abkahzians are closer to Muslim North Caucasians.
Georgians are much more isolated but their folk culture is more close to NCaucasians then to Armenians or Azerbaijanis.

[Rumata]

While in the North Caucasus there were no states but tibal unions even till Russian came


At least there was Alanian kingdom in North Caucasus:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Alania_10_12.png

[klarji]

At least there was Alanian kingdom in North Caucasus:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Alania_10_12.png

Good work in "paint"
Alans were ar this time halfly nomad
Their Kingdom was more then tribe but not Kingdom in modern meaning.
When Mongols defeated then they migrated to Europe and Caucasus mountains
It was like Hun or Khazar Kingdoms. They were united for little time. But did not have historical traditions of being state.

[JiaTheResearcher]

Never met North Caucasians personally.
During my trip to Armenia I witnessed a really mutual animosity between Armenians and Georgians, although I don't know where it originates from. In case of cultural Armenian and Georgian similarity that weird phenomenon would not be existent. I may be mistaken though.

[Scarface F]

Armenians. Animosity is irrelevant, lot of similar people have great animosity between themselfves.

South Caucasians are closer to each other than to North Caucasians overall.

[Frowning Man]

Armenians. Animosity is irrelevant, lot of similar people have great animosity between themselfves.

South Caucasians are closer to each other than to North Caucasians overall.

Armenians are as far from Georgians in terms of traditions, culture and mentality as the North Caucasians. It’s just that here on the forum they like to talk about some great similarity between Armenians and Georgians (I don’t know where this came from), but this is not true at all. Even one Russian traveler of the 19th century, who was in Georgia, wrote about the complete dissimilarity and differences between Georgians and Armenians. This difference between Georgians and Armenians is even more visible in the west of Georgia (where Georgians make up 100% of the population), in the mountains in the northeast and in the villages of Kakheti, where only Georgians live and the old customs and traditions are still alive. I myself have never noticed any particular similarity. It’s the same with the Azerbaijanis.

[user_]

Armenians. Animosity is irrelevant, lot of similar people have great animosity between themselfves.

South Caucasians are closer to each other than to North Caucasians overall.


I would say that even Balkans dance and music have more similarities with Armenia, than Georgians have.
This is Macedonian music, this kind of sounds in Georgia would be recognized as something Armenian, Azeri or Kurdish.

https://youtu.be/3KgLRTLZqa4?si=rfGAAKhrTPzZA3bN

And this is Georgian sounds, if anything in this world can be called Caucasian, this is Georgia :)


https://youtu.be/fgdHh2aIFXE?si=6FQI1BP2zZY0siDk

[Scarface F]

Armenians are as far from Georgians in terms of traditions, culture and mentality as the North Caucasians. It’s just that here on the forum they like to talk about some great similarity between Armenians and Georgians (I don’t know where this came from), but this is not true at all. Even one Russian traveler of the 19th century, who was in Georgia, wrote about the complete dissimilarity and differences between Georgians and Armenians. This difference between Georgians and Armenians is even more visible in the west of Georgia (where Georgians make up 100% of the population), in the mountains in the northeast and in the villages of Kakheti, where only Georgians live and the old customs and traditions are still alive. I myself have never noticed any particular similarity. It’s the same with the Azerbaijanis.

Both being Christian and having own countries will make them automatically closer than with muslim North Caucasians.

[Scarface F]

I would say that even Balkans dance and music have more similarities with Armenia, than Georgians have.
This is Macedonian music, this kind of sounds in Georgia would be recognized as something Armenian, Azeri or Kurdish.

https://youtu.be/3KgLRTLZqa4?si=rfGAAKhrTPzZA3bN

And this is Georgian sounds, if anything in this world can be called Caucasian, this is Georgia :)


https://youtu.be/fgdHh2aIFXE?si=6FQI1BP2zZY0siDk

You posted atypical muslim song from Macedonia. Ethnic Macedonians aren't muslim.

This is typical Macedonian song:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lUwRxN59djU&pp=ygUSTWFrZWRvbnNrbyBkZHZvamNl

[Frowning Man]

Both being Christian and having own countries will make them automatically closer than with muslim North Caucasians.

I don’t think that Georgians are closer to the North Caucasus than to Armenia. The original Georgians are equally far from both Armenia and the North Caucasus. I don’t see any resemblance to either one or the other at all. And I don’t think that Christianity makes Armenians and Georgians close to each other. If yes, then what exactly are our similarities and similarities?

1) Mentality? It is worth visiting the regions of Georgia (West of Georgia, the mountains of the northeast or even the villages of Kakheti), where Georgians have always lived mono-ethnically, people there are very different from the Armenians. I remember one traveler, when describing the ethnopsychology of the region, wrote that Western Georgians, living monoethnically and far from the Armenians, are very different from the southern ones from Tbilisi, living side by side with them.

Comparison of Western Georgians (real Georgians) with South-Eastern ones living together with Armenians.
“The Imeretians, Mingrelians and Gurians of the Kutaisi province, who are close to Georgians by blood, have a lot in common with them in their historical past and temperament. In expressing their pleasure, delight and cheerful mood of spirit, they are generally more restrained, not so submissive to fate, not so carefree and kind.”
(Sources: Doctor of Medicine E.V. Erickson. “News of Psychology, Criminal Anthropology and Hypnotism.” 1906.)

2) Folklore, style and motives of old songs and dances? Absolutely different and not similar. The original Georgian dances and song motifs are generally different, different from the Armenian ones.

3) The style of old folk clothes that people wore before? Again, completely different. The same dissimilarity is with the northern Caucasus. The only similarity can be found with the Abkhazians, and only because the territory was originally Georgian and 2/3 of modern Abkhazians are assimilated Georgians.

[Frowning Man]

I would say that even Balkans dance and music have more similarities with Armenia, than Georgians have.
This is Macedonian music, this kind of sounds in Georgia would be recognized as something Armenian, Azeri or Kurdish.

https://youtu.be/3KgLRTLZqa4?si=rfGAAKhrTPzZA3bN

And this is Georgian sounds, if anything in this world can be called Caucasian, this is Georgia :)


https://youtu.be/fgdHh2aIFXE?si=6FQI1BP2zZY0siDk


https://youtu.be/hCDBeKenL94?si=PkYK7rbfGlkCho8vThis one is more suitable.