The Khazars. A new genetic study

[PAGANE]

Diverse genetic origins of medieval steppe nomad conquerors
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2019.12.15.876912v1.full?fbclid=IwAR3Dc_uMn1E-KKeQFW2KOs45rEAowNJQX6r_p3J7bOgJDQk0EsYyHiKsMrE (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2019.12.15.876912v1.full?fbclid=IwAR3Dc_uMn1E-KKeQFW2KOs45rEAowNJQX6r_p3J7bOgJDQk0EsYyHiKsMrE)

[Annihilus]

Diverse genetic origins of medieval steppe nomad conquerors
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2019.12.15.876912v1.full?fbclid=IwAR3Dc_uMn1E-KKeQFW2KOs45rEAowNJQX6r_p3J7bOgJDQk0EsYyHiKsMrE (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2019.12.15.876912v1.full?fbclid=IwAR3Dc_uMn1E-KKeQFW2KOs45rEAowNJQX6r_p3J7bOgJDQk0EsYyHiKsMrE)

ty, going to read

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Annihilus; 6404003] ty, ще чете [/ QUOTE]
I read somewhere that BAM files are expected to come out of the autosome and then there will probably be a new post

[Annihilus]

[QUOTE = Annihilus; 6404003] ty, ще чете [/ QUOTE]
I read somewhere that BAM files are expected to come out of the autosome and then there will probably be a new post

I just skimmed trough it, was very curious about the y-dna but no (or I missed it).

[Annihilus]

Apparently they used it but it isn't published (yet?)

We found no significant trace of Ashkenazi genetic composition in either nuclear, mitochondrial or Y-chromosome data, strongly indicating that Khazars were generally not related to them.

[Lucas]

Apparently they used it but it isn't published (yet?)

We found no significant trace of Ashkenazi genetic composition in either nuclear, mitochondrial or Y-chromosome data, strongly indicating that Khazars were generally not related to them.

It should be the opposite. Khazar genetic composition among Ashkenazi...

[Annihilus]

It should be the opposite. Khazar genetic composition among Ashkenazi...

Jews want categorically having nothing to do with Khazars. I find that odd, if I was a Jew I would be proud of such an influential empire.

For the best I guess, now we don't have to share them.

[Crn Volk]

Jews want categorically having nothing to do with Khazars. I find that odd, if I was a Jew I would be proud of such an influential empire.

For the best I guess, now we don't have to share them.

Khazars were Jewish converts, not genetically semites.

[Annihilus]

Khazars were Jewish converts, not genetically semites.

so, most ashkenazi aren't either

you also have full ssa and full mongoloid jews

[PAGANE]

They were not Jews, but professed Judaism. However, it is not clear whether only the ruling elite or the people. Changing religion is not such a factor in changing genetics, especially that they were not neighbors with true Jews

[Annihilus]

They were not Jews, but professed Judaism. However, it is not clear whether only the ruling elite or the people. Changing religion is not such a factor in changing genetics, especially that they were not neighbors with true Jews

This makes no sense whatsoever. Judaism is a religion, people adhering to that religion are Jews, it's as simple as that.

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Annihilus; 6404389] Това няма смисъл. Иудаизмът е религия, хората, които се придържат към тази религия, са евреи, това е толкова просто. [/ ЦИТО]
Are all Arabs who profess Islam? Judaism, as a religion, cannot be made Semitic by the Turkic people

[Annihilus]

[QUOTE = Annihilus; 6404389] Това няма смисъл. Иудаизмът е религия, хората, които се придържат към тази религия, са евреи, това е толкова просто. [/ ЦИТО]
Are all Arabs who profess Islam? Judaism, as a religion, cannot be made Semitic by the Turkic people

Do you know that most of the Ashkenazi's today stem from a handful of coverted european women? Their y and mtdna is from all over the place.

chinese jews

https://mk0breakingisralps2c.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Chinese-woman-aliyah.jpg

There was a time in history when judaism grew mostly by way of conversion. A turkic can be a muslim or christian, why not a jew? Makes no sense.

[Annihilus]

If they are trying to find a current genetic link between khazars and jews they should not look for it in ashkenazi but the Russian jews. After all they come from the same area.

https://cdni.rbth.com/rbthmedia/images/all/2016/11/08/jewish_museum_and_tolerance_centre_000_dv1505602_b .jpg

My views are not to delegitimize Israel btw. My view is if you can take land and defend it, it is yours.

[Pine]

If they are trying to find a current genetic link between khazars and jews they should not look for it in ashkenazi but the Russian jews. After all they come from the same area.

https://cdni.rbth.com/rbthmedia/images/all/2016/11/08/jewish_museum_and_tolerance_centre_000_dv1505602_b .jpg

My views are not to delegitimize Israel btw. My view is if you can take land and defend it, it is yours.

Almost all Russian Jews are Ashkenazi. And when people say "Russian Jews", the almost always refer to the Ashkenazi ones. If you want to be technical, Mizrachi Jews live in the Northern Caucasus. And now that Crimea has been effectively annexed, Crimean Karaites and Krymchaks (of whom maybe 50 remain) live in Russia.

All the ones in your pic are Ashkenazi.

[Pine]

Do you know that most of the Ashkenazi's today stem from a handful of coverted european women? Their y and mtdna is from all over the place.

chinese jews

https://mk0breakingisralps2c.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Chinese-woman-aliyah.jpg

There was a time in history when judaism grew mostly by way of conversion. A turkic can be a muslim or christian, why not a jew? Makes no sense.

Show me a turkic Druze.

You're also mischaracterizing the haplogroup data. Most of the maternal lineages seems to be European in origin, while Ashkenazi YDNA is overwhelmingly Middle Eastern in origin. And 5 Chinese Jews, who may not even be recognized by many Rabbis, don't change anything. There are also Black Abkhazians. Can anyone be Abkhazian now? This is about as silly as when you deduced Jews descend from vikings because of that counter AIDS mutation.

[Annihilus]

Show me a turkic Druze.

You're also mischaracterizing the haplogroup data. Most of the maternal lineages seems to be European in origin, while Ashkenazi YDNA is overwhelmingly Middle Eastern in origin. And 5 Chinese Jews, who may not even be recognized by many Rabbis, don't change anything. There are also Black Abkhazians. Can anyone be Abkhazian now? This is about as silly as when you deduced Jews descend from vikings because of that counter AIDS mutation.

That is not what I said, what I said was that it was odd that Israel had such a high mutation rate sticking out like a sore thumb compared to neighbouring countries and unless vikings were doing aliyah at that time there had to be another explanation.

There is a history of judaism in China, those ladies aren't recent converts. You just don't want to accept them because it doesn't fit your bill.

Ashkenazim don't plot in Isreal, that's all I need to know.

It's just a religion, get over it

http://images.nymag.com/news/features/blackjews121224_3_560.jpg

[FinalFlash]

That is not what I said, what I said was that it was odd that Israel had such a high mutation rate sticking out like a sore thumb compared to neighbouring countries and unless vikings were doing aliyah at that time there had to be another explanation.

There is a history of judaism in China, those ladies aren't recent converts. You just don't want to accept them because it doesn't fit your bill.

Ashkenazim don't plot in Isreal, that's all I need to know.

It's just a religion, get over it

http://images.nymag.com/news/features/blackjews121224_3_560.jpg

Jews have diverged from their Palestinian-like ancestors over the last couple thousand years. To me, they are simply a religious group now.

[Pine]

That is not what I said, what I said was that it was odd that Israel had such a high mutation rate sticking out like a sore thumb compared to neighbouring countries and unless vikings were doing aliyah at that time there had to be another explanation.

There is a history of judaism in China, those ladies aren't recent converts. You just don't want to accept them because it doesn't fit your bill.

Ashkenazim don't plot in Isreal, that's all I need to know.

It's just a religion, get over it



There are maybe 1k Chinese Jews in total, which are very likely not to be recognized by many Rabbis (not Pine).

By your reasoning, every admixed population is now stripped off their roots: Mexicans from Mexico, African Americans from Africa etc. By your plotting rule, Ashkenazim are now Mediterranean mermaids.

And such mutations aren't indicative of admixture proportions. Even if they were, would that cancel out Ashkenazi medical genetics typical of Middle Easterners?

[Turul Karom]

Unfortunately nothing about Hungary or Hungarians is mentioned either. Too bad.

[Leto]

Diverse genetic origins of medieval steppe nomad conquerors
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2019.12.15.876912v1.full?fbclid=IwAR3Dc_uMn1E-KKeQFW2KOs45rEAowNJQX6r_p3J7bOgJDQk0EsYyHiKsMrE (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2019.12.15.876912v1.full?fbclid=IwAR3Dc_uMn1E-KKeQFW2KOs45rEAowNJQX6r_p3J7bOgJDQk0EsYyHiKsMrE)
Interesting! The elite is described as being predominantly Mongoloid in the study. In other words (actually my own) they were basically high IQ Asian supremacists, haha xD :D

[Leto]

That is not what I said, what I said was that it was odd that Israel had such a high mutation rate sticking out like a sore thumb compared to neighbouring countries and unless vikings were doing aliyah at that time there had to be another explanation.

There is a history of judaism in China, those ladies aren't recent converts. You just don't want to accept them because it doesn't fit your bill.

Ashkenazim don't plot in Isreal, that's all I need to know.

It's just a religion, get over it

Those groups are still fairly marginal, some are basically irrelevant. As a whole the Jews are still an ethno-religious group, not merely a religion open for everyone to join. Whether they are predominantly Semitic and identical to the Biblical Hebrews or not is another question which I won't go into because I don't want to be attacked for something someone else wouldn't like to hear. Banning and censorship rarely convince people to change their minds, often quite the opposite. This thread is not about the Jews or Israel anyway.

[Smeagol]

Jews have no homeland.

[archangel]

My kin......

[Kamal900]

Jews have no homeland.

Well, their homeland is in the Levant region where their Y-DNA is very similar to the genetic isolated groups of the Levant like the Christians and the Druze. Of course, western Jews aren't fully Levantine nor Europeans - they're somewhere in between.

[Yaglakar]

Found autosomals in supplementary materials

https://i.imgur.com/wfbnfBR.png

By the looks of it, extremely heterogeneous elite. The way they describe it, mongoloid elite in the process of assimilation. Two of them are almost fully mongoloid.

[Kamal900]

My kin......

Well, they were Turkic afterall, though they're weren't Oghuz Turkic peoples like today's Turks, Azeris, Gagauz and Turkmen.

[Smeagol]

Well, their homeland is in the Levant region where their Y-DNA is very similar to the genetic isolated groups of the Levant like the Christians and the Druze. Of course, western Jews aren't fully Levantine nor Europeans - they're somewhere in between.

Well basically western Jews are as indigenous to Israel as Barack Obama is to Northwest Europe.

[Leto]

Well basically western Jews are as indigenous to Israel as Barack Obama is to Northwest Europe.

https://youtu.be/DerVmiZeUDw

[Annihilus]

Unfortunately nothing about Hungary or Hungarians is mentioned either. Too bad.

Yes very sad, looks like the sole purpose of the paper was to disprove a genetic link between Ashekenazim and Khazars. Not to actually learn more about them.


Those groups are still fairly marginal, some are basically irrelevant. As a whole the Jews are still an ethno-religious group, not merely a religion open for everyone to join. Whether they are predominantly Semitic and identical to the Biblical Hebrews or not is another question which I won't go into because I don't want to be attacked for something someone else wouldn't like to hear. Banning and censorship rarely convince people to change their minds, often quite the opposite. This thread is not about the Jews or Israel anyway.

In a way it is about the Jews, but I am going to stop posting now because I don't want my views to be mistaken for attacking Jews or israel. In fact I have great respect for them especially in the scientific and military field.

I will leave one last comment though, it is true that Judaism is exclusive now, but that wasn't always the case in history. Even the rule that you can only be a Jew if your mom is one is fairly recent.

[FinalFlash]

Well, their homeland is in the Levant region where their Y-DNA is very similar to the genetic isolated groups of the Levant like the Christians and the Druze. Of course, western Jews aren't fully Levantine nor Europeans - they're somewhere in between.

That may be true, but you can't deny the fact that they've transformed into something completely different than what they once were originally.

[PAGANE]

WHAT IT WAS, THE FACE OF THE "KHAZAR NATIONALITY"
The fact that such a powerful state entity as the Khazar Kaganate was inhabited by people of all kinds of nationalities has long been known from historical sources and according to anthropologists. But now this fact has been confirmed by Rostov geneticists. The author of these lines talked about this with Olga Aramova, a postgraduate student of the SFedU, a research engineer at the Southern Scientific Center of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
History of Khazaria
In the 7th - 8th centuries, in the space between the Volga and Don, a powerful state of the Middle Ages, the Khazar Kaganate, was formed from semi-nomadic peoples. The united peoples managed to create a single bright and distinctive culture. The Byzantine emperor Theophilus, at the request of the Khazar Kagan, sent the architect Petrona Kamatir to the Don, who in 837 completed the construction of the main western outpost of the Kaganate, the powerful fortress Sarkel, in the Don bend. Today it is located at the bottom of the Tsimlyansk Sea, before it was studied, as far as possible, by archaeologists.


Khazars fought constantly - both on the battlefields and on diplomatic fields. By the end of the 11th century, references to the empire, weakened by the raids of both Russian princes and the nomadic hordes of the Pechenegs, disappear from historical sources.


However, the scientist-historian Lev Gumilyov substantiates the disappearance of the Khazar Kaganate with objective factors. By the end of the 11th century, the level of the Volga rose by 22 meters and Khazaria, located mainly on the islands and along the shores of the Volga delta, like Atlantis, went under water. Today, the level of the great river is falling, and some islands are exposed, giving archaeologists hope for interesting finds.


The inhabitants of the kaganate did not wait for the river to flood their houses with gardens and numerous vineyards, and emigrated, including to the Volga steppes, and to the territory of the Lower and Middle Don and beyond, where Khazar burials are still found.


What archaeologists and anthropologists say
The graves of the inhabitants of the kaganate are relatively easy to date, since they find objects that allow them to do this - the same Byzantine coins, bits and stirrups (there are numerous tables of their typology in time), luxury items in the form of silver and gilded vessels. Stuffed horses are also found in elite military graves.


Studies of skulls from the 7th-11th century burial mounds from the Lower Don and Lower Volga regions, carried out by anthropologists, revealed that their owners had a mixed Mongoloid-Caucasian type.


Thus, Elena Batieva, Candidate of Biological Sciences, Senior Researcher of the Azov Historical, Archaeological and Paleontological Museum-Reserve, studying the remains of 86 adults and four children, found that men, like women, had a great similarity with the Huns of Transbaikalia and the Turkic-speaking nomads of the South Siberia, Altai and Kazakhstan. And the existing Caucasian component in the male remains had, in the opinion of the anthropologist, similarities with representatives of the Saltov-Mayatsk culture, which preceded the Sarmatian culture of the Lower Don and Lower Volga region in time.


A word to geneticists
Olga Aramova's work is connected with the molecular genetic study of the ancient population of the South of Russia - in particular, the Khazar Kaganate of the late 7th and early 9th centuries. She studied the remains from rich burials of the Khazar time, found on the territory of the modern Rostov region.


Nine skeletons of the Khazar time were examined, which was confirmed by radiocarbon analysis. These were burials in rich sarcophagi. These materials were kindly provided to geneticists by the Azov Museum-Reserve.


Olga Aramova investigated haplogroups in the DNA taken from the remains proposed for study (haplogroups are those DNA markers that determine a person's belonging to a particular type). And it turned out that all of them found in the eastern part of the Rostov region belong to the Asian group.


- The sample is still small, - explains Olga Yurievna. - But the data of our research differ slightly from the anthropological data. According to anthropologists, their analysis rather spoke of the Eastern European type of remains. And our data speaks of a mixed genetic origin of the Khazars, among them there are both representatives of West Eurasian and East Asian origin. At the same time, not a single owner of the studied skeletons has 100% Western European genetic origin, as was previously assumed by archaeologists.


And most importantly, they showed great heterogeneity, which speaks of the Khazar Kaganate as a unique place with more than diverse peoples living in it. And the blood of the inhabitants of Khazaria was mixed for many generations. So it is impossible to say what the "face of the Khazar nationality" looked like.


“Representatives of the Kaganate population have dissolved among the inhabitants of more powerful powers,” says Olga Aramova, “and now we do not have their direct descendants.


It is too early to draw any conclusions, but Olga plans to investigate more than a hundred skeletons from the burials of the Khazar time.
On the purity of the experiment
The Paleogenetics Laboratory of the SSC RAS ​​is developing new methods for working with such complex genetic material. So, in 2020, Olga Aramova won the UMNIK competition, where she presented a method for removing DNA and DNA-containing materials in laboratories from the samples under study. The developed complex of solutions will allow working with ancient samples that can be contaminated with modern DNA of the same archaeologists. As it turns out, this is a big problem: one eminent scientist talked about how he singled out - and it seemed carefully! - DNA from the remains of dinosaurs, and then it turned out to be his own DNA.


And if we return to those mixed human types that have been observed since the early Iron Age in eastern Eurasia, then today there are enough of them. This is evidenced by large-scale genetic studies of modern Tatars.


Original article on Russian http://werawolw.ru/?p=23210&fbclid=IwAR2PvuRahFkSTVK1q2IN54rSuYoHfjsdSEC4jz-8WN5E3tv7KypAI2wX4Dc

[Beers]

This paper is flawed and nothing more than junk science in regard to the subject of Ashkenazim and their possible Khazar admixture.
Click this link below and read this response to this paper by Dr. Eran Elhaik, and put some balance into this thread.

Diverse genetic origins of medieval steppe nomad conquerors – a response to Mikheyev et al. (2019)
Dr. Eran Elhaik
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.06.885103v1



Abstract

Recently, Mikheyev et al. (2019) have produced a preprint study describing the genomes of nine Khazars archeologically dated from the 7th to the 9th centuries found in the Rostov county in modern-day Russia. Skull morphology indicated a mix of “Caucasoid” and “Mongoloid” shapes. The authors compared the samples to ancient and contemporary samples to study the genetic makeup of the Khazars and their genetic legacy and addressed the question of the relationships between the Khazar and Ashkenazic Jews. A careful examination reveals grave concerns regarding all the aspects of the study from the identification of the “Khazar” samples, the choice of environment for ancient DNA sequencing, and the analyses. The authors did not disclose the data used in their study, and their methodology is incoherent. We demonstrate that their analyses yield nonsensical results and argue that none of the claims made in this study are supported by the data unequivocally. Provided the destruction of the bone samples and the irreproducibility of the analyses, even by the forgivable standards of the field, this study is irreplicable, wasteful, and misleading.

[Pine]

This paper is flawed and nothing more than junk science in regard to the subject of Ashkenazim and their possible Khazar admixture.
Click this link below and read this response to this paper by Dr. Eran Elhaik, and put some balance into this thread.

Diverse genetic origins of medieval steppe nomad conquerors – a response to Mikheyev et al. (2019)
Dr. Eran Elhaik
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.06.885103v1

Elhaik is a joke. He argued that Azerbaijani Jews and Armenians are a Khazar proxy and because Ashkenazim show affinity to them, they're Khazars.

[Beers]

Elhaik is a joke. He argued that Azerbaijani Jews and Armenians are a Khazar proxy and because Ashkenazim show affinity to them, they're Khazars.
I would just read his criticism of this particular paper, and make a decision based off of that, if I was you.
To call him a "joke," and not even read his criticism of this paper in question, kind of makes you look like a joke...
Instead of you criticizing his use of genetic proxies of Khazars in a previous paper (which he took heavy fire for), how about reading his response to Mikheyev et al. (2019), ***this paper*** and opine on the facts in discussion?

[Beers]

Elhaik is a joke. He argued that Azerbaijani Jews and Armenians are a Khazar proxy and because Ashkenazim show affinity to them, they're Khazars.
I would say you calling yourself "100% Judean" is a joke and delusional.
You can't substantiate that claim scientifically, not a shred of proof for that.
And of course your ancestry, like all modern Jews, is very admixed and hardly one monolithic ancestry.
Where is your Judean DNA data set?

No doubt you like many others glom on to the "Judean" label to justify the Zionist state in the Levant?
Well if you want scientific backed facts these are them:
The vast majority of world Jewry are Ashkenazim, by autosomal genetics one can make a rock solid case that they belong in their ancestral homelands of Sicily, Crete, South Italy and the Greek Peloponnesus.
Can you or anyone else make such a case about the Levant?
You can make NO genetic case tying Ashkenazim to the Levant on an Autosomal level, 44 out of 46 chromosomes.
Uniparental sex chromosomes are not an accurate way to trace the ancestral origins of a group like Ashkenazim who have suffered severe genetic drift/bottleneck.
And even Uniparental sex chromosome studies by the most shady Zionism obsessed, hack researchers, can't help but show large maternal European lines in Ashkenazim, and much if not nearly all of the Y-dna attributed to them from the Levant could easily be explained by the fact that Ashkenazim are fundamentally a Greco-Roman population, and guess what?
Greco-Romans have a large amount of Levantine ancestry.
VERY dicey and shady determining the exact time-frame of this introgression, and it was likely in many, many, waves and far from one event.


You call scientists a "joke," but make-up a mythical ancestry for yourself out of whole cloth...
Judean my ass....
You have mental hospitals filled with people who claim to be the "Queen of England" too.

[Beers]

Well, their homeland is in the Levant region where their Y-DNA is very similar to the genetic isolated groups of the Levant like the Christians and the Druze. Of course, western Jews aren't fully Levantine nor Europeans - they're somewhere in between.
Try replacing your post with this and it will highlight your logical fallacy:


"Of course, South Italians and Sicilians aren't fully Levantine nor Europeans - they're somewhere in between."
Now tell Italy to redraw maps and make South Italy and Sicily a neutral zone between the Levant and Europe...
Send that message to Crete and mainland Southern Greece, too.
Make sure to tell all of them that they aren't Europeans, as well.
Be consistent, or be a hypocrite and reveal your double standards.

BTW, your ignorant post has a bar of "fully Levantine nor Europeans," so you basically just excluded all of Southern Europe entirely, even as you go up to Northern Italy they have substantial MENA admixture.
Sure it gets higher on a cline as you go further south, but it's at noteworthy numbers in all of Southern Europe.
Including in Slavs like Bulgarians.
Southern Albania has high MENA.
Macedonians...
Blah, blah, blah.


Well, their homeland is in the Levant region where their Y-DNA is very similar to the genetic isolated groups of the Levant like the Christians and the Druze.
I will quote Dr. Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin about this subject of uni parental markers in regard to the genetics of Ashkenazim:

A single uni parental marker that does not represent the whole history of the population, but also because its smaller effective population size makes it much more vulnerable to severe genetic drift caused by demographic bottlenecks.
This lends further support to the notion that because of the unique demographic history of EEJ, their uniparental markers were subjected to stronger genetic drift than the biparental markers and thus should not be used to trace their origin.
The autosomal genetic distance matrix has a very high correlation (0.789) with geography, whereas the X-chromosomal, Y-chromosomal and mtDNA matrices have a lower correlation (0.540, 0.395 and 0.641 respectively).
https://biologydirect.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6150-5-57


I feel dumber just replying to you.
No doubt you have been on anthro forums for years and have learned zilch.
Blocked.

[Kamal900]

Try replacing your post with this and it will highlight your logical fallacy:


Now tell Italy to redraw maps and make South Italy and Sicily a neutral zone between the Levant and Europe...
Send that message to Crete and mainland Southern Greece, too.

BTW, your ignorant post has a bar of "fully Levantine nor Europeans," so you basically just excluded all of Southern Europe entirely, even as you go up to Northern Italy they have substantial MENA admixture.
Sure it gets higher on a cline as you go further south, but it's at noteworthy numbers in all of Southern Europe.
Including in Slavs like Bulgarians.
Southern Albania has high MENA.
Macedonians...
Blah, blah, blah.
I feel dumber just replying to you.
No doubt you have been on anthro forums for years and have learned zilch.
Blocked.

Never said that, you ass. I only stated the truth here in their genome. Never called on redrawing the map of Europe or whatever. Albanians don't even have a small percentage of west asian genes even let alone MENA in contrast to Aegean Greeks and Southern Italians who cluster the closest to Western Jewry due to sharing similar admixtures despite not having anything in common beyond that.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture/page1055&p=729520#post729520

I don't know who you are, but it's pretty clear that you're a sockpuppet account of some banned member. Then why did you talked to me then?

[Pine]

I would say you calling yourself "100% Judean" is a joke and delusional.
You can't substantiate that claim scientifically, not a shred of proof for that.
And of course your ancestry, like all modern Jews, is very admixed and hardly one monolithic ancestry.
Where is your Judean DNA data set?

I'm actually 500% Judean and just very humble


No doubt you like many others glom on to the "Judean" label to justify the Zionist state in the Levant?
Well if you want scientific backed facts these are them:
The vast majority of world Jewry are Ashkenazim, by autosomal genetics one can make a rock solid case that they belong in their ancestral homelands of Sicily, Crete, South Italy and the Greek Peloponnesus.

You don't mean autosomal here, but simply autosomal plotting. There is no such thing as a "rock solid case" with autosomal plotting. Mixed people plot in locations they have 0 ancestry from.




[b]Can you or anyone else make such a case about the Levant? You can make NO genetic case tying Ashkenazim to the Levant on an Autosomal level, 44 out of 46 chromosomes.



Yes, when you combine autosomal plotting with the amount of north European segments Ashkenazim have, and drift from other Western Jewish groups, it's clear that the Levant has to be a substantial component, or else Romaniotes are also a bunch of converts.




Uniparental sex chromosomes are not an accurate way to trace the ancestral origins of a group like Ashkenazim who have suffered severe genetic drift/bottleneck.
And even Uniparental sex chromosome studies by the most shady Zionism obsessed, hack researchers, can't help but show large Maternal European lines in Ashkenazim, and much if not nearly all of the Y-dna attributed to them from the Levant could easily be explained by the fact that Ashkenazim are fundamentally a Greco-Roman population, and guess what?
Greco-Romans have a large amount of Levantine ancestry.
VERY dicey and shady determining the exact time-frame of this introgression, and it was likely in many, many, waves and far from one event.



Levantine Y-DNA is a fluke of the bottleneck, but European MTDNA isn't? Amazing.



You call scientists a "joke," but make-up a mythical ancestry for yourself out of whole cloth...
Judean my ass....
You have mental hospitals filled with people who claim to be the "Queen of England" too.

No one takes Elhaik seriously.

[Pine]

[QUOTE]I will quote Dr. Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin about this subject of uni parental markers in regard to the genetics of Ashkenazim:


A single uni parental marker that does not represent the whole history of the population, but also because its smaller effective population size makes it much more vulnerable to severe genetic drift caused by demographic bottlenecks.
This lends further support to the notion that because of the unique demographic history of EEJ, their uniparental markers were subjected to stronger genetic drift than the biparental markers and thus should not be used to trace their origin.
The autosomal genetic distance matrix has a very high correlation (0.789) with geography, whereas the X-chromosomal, Y-chromosomal and mtDNA matrices have a lower correlation (0.540, 0.395 and 0.641 respectively).
https://biologydirect.biomedcentral....1745-6150-5-57

This paper hasn't aged well. What he's saying may be true for unmixed populations, which Ashkenazim clearly aren't. He also has Ashkenazi MTDNA plotting beside Palestinians. You sure you want to use him?

[Pine]

I would just read his criticism of this particular paper, and make a decision based off of that, if I was you.
To call him a "joke," and not even read his criticism of this paper in question, kind of makes you look like a joke...
Instead of you criticizing his use of genetic proxies of Khazars in a previous paper (which he took heavy fire for), how about reading his response to Mikheyev et al. (2019), ***this paper*** and opine on the facts in discussion?

You can't assume I haven't read it. It's him throwing everything he can, hoping something sticks. His ex co-author is in the paper, btw.

[ModernMaskil]

Try replacing your post with this and it will highlight your logical fallacy:

Now tell Italy to redraw maps and make South Italy and Sicily a neutral zone between the Levant and Europe...
Send that message to Crete and mainland Southern Greece, too.


So, peripheral Southern Europeans can't be described as "somewhere in between" because they're geographically and culturally European? Try applying the same method to Jewish geographic and cultural origin.


Be consistent, or be a hypocrite and reveal your double standards.

[Beers]

So, peripheral Southern Europeans can't be described as "somewhere in between" because they're geographically and culturally European? Try applying the same method to Jewish geographic and cultural origin.
Might be an apt post if we were discussing culture/geography, unfortunately for you we were discussing POPULATION GENETICS.
Did you miss that part?
Nice way to ignore the OP and move the goal post...
Obfuscate about the nebulous and completely opinion based realm of being "culturally European," add "geography" for some baffling reason, and ignore the science of population genetics which the OP was discussing.
Yes Ashkenazim are at home like two peas in their pod in the middle of the Arab/Iranian/Turkish, Middle East, their culture fits in so well with the natives.:lightbul:
Sarcasm off...
Population genetics/autosomal DNA does give a geographical location to the origins of Ashkenazim, squarely in Greco-Roman Southern Europe, and well outside the Eastern Mediterranean (to be specific Israel).
Hey you got a pity up-vote, so in 2020 that is all that matters, popularity,YEA!
Integrity and honest debate not so much....
Good for you Jake Tapper!:picard2:
P.S. "Veteran Judean," take your juice-box and swallow your meds now.

[ModernMaskil]

Might be an apt post if we were discussing culture/geography, unfortunately for you we were discussing POPULATION GENETICS.
Did you miss that part?
Nice way to ignore the OP and move the goal post...
Hey you got a pity up-vote, so in 2020 that is all that matters, popularity,YEA!
Integrity and honest debate not so much....
Good for you Jake Tapper!:picard2:
P.S. "Veteran Judean," take your juice-box and swallow your meds now.




Now tell Italy to redraw maps and make South Italy and Sicily a neutral zone between the Levant and Europe...
Send that message to Crete and mainland Southern Greece, too.
Make sure to tell all of them that they aren't Europeans, as well.

I don't know chief, this sounds a hell of a lot like geography and not much like population genetics to me.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I've ranted about this shit before and I'll rant about it again and again, let's first of all look at the facts. First of all it's impossible for Ashkenazi to be Khazar converts, mainly because of the historical geographic placement for Levantine Jews, many of them were in Southern Europe, which makes sense given the plotted points on their closest Genetic details. 50% of the Ashkenazi genepool is Southern Italian and Greek Islander, 35% is West Asian (Levantine), 10% Slavic and 10% North African, this has made Ashkenazi Jews some of the most phenotypically diverse people in Europe, but all Jews have a "Specific" look for a reason, whether it be the "Armenoid or Assyroid" features that many Jews have been historically stereotyped with or the fact how most Jews have Dark hair and eyes would also add to this logic. Jews do NOT descend from Khazars...

Genetic Cluster of European Jews, specifically Ashkenazi (The ethnic group accused of being Khazars)
104874
104875
104876

What "Khazars" were noted by Ancient Arab Sources to have looked like
104877

What most Ashkenazi Jews look like, here are some celebrities and various Ashkenazi Jews:
104878
104879
104880
104881
104882
104883
104884
104885
104886
104887
104888
And I'm really only scraping the surface here, if you google "Are there any Ashkenazi jews who are typical levant looking" you will find tons of them

"BUT BUT MANY ASHKENAZIS HAVE RED HAIR ....."

Lmfao many people in the Levant have Redhair, in fact it's actually native to the region. Moses was described by early biblical sources as being Ginger and many Levantine people today like many Ashkenazi can have Redhair. It literally means nothing

Ashkenazi Jews with Redhair

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

104889

Looking no different to Syrians/Lebanese with Redhair
104890
104891

[SUPREEEEEME]

This paper is flawed and nothing more than junk science in regard to the subject of Ashkenazim and their possible Khazar admixture.
Click this link below and read this response to this paper by Dr. Eran Elhaik, and put some balance into this thread.

Diverse genetic origins of medieval steppe nomad conquerors – a response to Mikheyev et al. (2019)
Dr. Eran Elhaik
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.06.885103v1

Elhaik is a joke.

[Kamal900]

Elhaik is a joke.

Yes which we talked about this in Anthrogenica.