Ancient Fennoscandian genomes reveal origin and spread of Siberian ancestry in Europe

[Lemminkäinen]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5

[Voskos]

As expected meds have the lowest siberian admixture.

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-07483-5/MediaObjects/41467_2018_7483_Fig3_HTML.png

[Jana]

As expected meds have the lowest siberian admixture.

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-07483-5/MediaObjects/41467_2018_7483_Fig3_HTML.png

Czechs have almost 0% Siberian, certanly less than Hungarians. I suspect some of sampled ''Czechs'' have some kind of Russian ancestry, otherwise there is no way for them to have more Siberian than Magyars.

[Tong]

I wanna have siberian DNA.

[Leto]

Czechs have almost 0% Siberian, certanly less than Hungarians. I suspect some of sampled ''Czechs'' have some kind of Russian ancestry, otherwise there is no way for them to have more Siberian than Magyars.
Come on, there is no historical Russian community in Czechia, only recent immigrants from the last 1-2 decades.

[Jana]

Come on, there is no historical Russian community in Czechia, only recent immigrants from the last 1-2 decades.

You know how typical Czech score. Almost no Siberian. Hungarians score some.

[Leto]

You know how typical Czech score. Almost no Siberian. Hungarians score some.
I didn't say anything about the accuracy of that data. Oftentimes those samples are kind of fishy.

[Östsvensk]

As expected meds have the lowest siberian admixture.

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-07483-5/MediaObjects/41467_2018_7483_Fig3_HTML.png

Dodecad K7b results from a Finn with roots in Savonia (the average is 8.9 on the spreadsheet):

dmix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 79.29
2 Siberian 10.32
3 West_Asian 7.71
4 South_Asian 1.46


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
7 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 FIN30 @ 3.793527
2 Finnish @ 4.289494
3 Russian @ 5.982052
4 Russian @ 8.313184
5 Russian_B @ 8.814853
6 Mordovians @ 10.117796
7 Belorussian @ 10.368294
8 Lithuanian @ 10.515162
9 Swedish @ 11.070503
10 Norwegian @ 11.779844
11 Polish @ 11.834509
12 Mixed_Slav @ 12.014628
13 Lithuanians @ 12.623351
14 Ukranians @ 13.461567
15 Orkney @ 14.071034
16 Argyll @ 14.151915
17 Orcadian @ 14.587643
18 Irish @ 14.859762
19 British @ 15.177915
20 British_Isles @ 15.214399


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 FIN30 + FIN30 + FIN30 + Russian @ 2.143654

His Dodecad V3:

West_European 47.93%
East_European 31.36%
Mediterranean 8.36%
Northeast_Asian 7.49%
West_Asian 2.41%
Southeast_Asian 2.24%
South_Asian 0.22%
Neo_African -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian -
Northwest_African -
Palaeo_African -


Using 1 population approximation:
1 FIN @ 8.600430
2 Finnish @ 9.969612
3 Polish @ 21.986406
4 Slovenian @ 22.094454
5 Mixed_Slav @ 22.148821
6 German @ 22.322506
7 Hungarians @ 22.859608
8 Russian @ 23.800045
9 Russian @ 24.480520
10 N._European @ 27.532587
11 Swedish @ 27.535694
12 Argyll @ 27.616291
13 Orkney @ 28.667305
14 CEU @ 28.717003
15 Orcadian @ 28.762934
16 Norwegian @ 31.477734
17 Chuvashs_16 @ 31.803366
18 Lithuanians @ 32.532585
19 Belorussian @ 32.596809
20 Mixed_Germanic @ 33.358246

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Chuvashs_16 + FIN + Finnish + Swedish @ 2.663900
2 British_Isles + Chuvashs_16 + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.674455
3 British + Chuvashs_16 + Finnish + Finnish @ 2.696377
4 Chuvashs_16 + FIN + Finnish + Norwegian @ 2.721018
5 Chuvashs_16 + FIN + Finnish + Orkney @ 2.789912

Dodecad K12b:

Gedrosia 3.37%
Siberian 8.33%
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian 0.57%
Atlantic_Med 17.73%
North_European 66.00%
South_Asian 0.52%
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 1.06%
East_Asian 0.94%
Caucasus 1.47%
Sub_Saharan -


--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 FIN30 @ 8.903809
2 Russian @ 9.804201
3 Finnish @ 11.173496
4 Russian @ 12.223836
5 Mordovians @ 13.241546
6 Mixed_Slav @ 14.080208
7 Polish @ 14.461360
8 Belorussian @ 14.970073
9 Russian_B @ 15.120755
10 Lithuanian @ 15.190302
11 Lithuanians @ 16.310833
12 Ukranians @ 17.634661
13 Swedish @ 19.872149
14 Chuvashs @ 22.841408
15 Norwegian @ 23.303078
16 Hungarians @ 25.994831
17 German @ 26.570721
18 Dutch @ 31.584103
19 Mixed_Germanic @ 32.480453
20 Orkney @ 33.297104

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Chuvashs + Finnish + Finnish + Norwegian @ 2.383602
2 Chuvashs + Finnish + Finnish + Swedish @ 2.611957
3 Chuvashs + FIN30 + Finnish + Norwegian @ 2.678406
4 Chuvashs + FIN30 + Finnish + Swedish @ 2.741190
5 Chuvashs + FIN30 + FIN30 + Swedish @ 2.964833


The Chuvash, who are Tatarized Finns, include both partially mongoloid forms, as shown on Plate 3, and also Nordics and Nordic-Ladogan hybrids. The Chuvash shown here is a Nordic of a long-faced, narrow-nosed type, and his Nordic character may be either ancestrally Finnish or else derived from the Iranian and Turkish-speaking Nordics of central Asia, brought in both by Scytho-Sarmatians and by Turkish invaders.
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/index2.htm

[Östsvensk]

Genes reveal traces of common recent demographic history for most of the Uralic-speaking populations (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1522-1)

PCA plot of Finno-Ugric populations where Siberians are used:

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs13059-018-1522-1/MediaObjects/13059_2018_1522_Fig2_HTML.png?as=webp

Further:

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs13059-018-1522-1/MediaObjects/13059_2018_1522_Fig6_HTML.png?as=webp

https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs13059-018-1522-1/MediaObjects/13059_2018_1522_Fig1_HTML.png?as=webp

[Lemminkäinen]

Double post removed.

[Lemminkäinen]

@östsvensk

I can't use Dodecad, because I am a part of his reference data and the result would be distorted by the "calculator effect".

"Here's the good news: the Eurogenes calculators don't suffer from the calculator effect. That's because the reference samples are treated in the same way as the test samples, so there's only one variable: ancestry. What this means is that when you run a modern or ancient genome with a Eurogenes calculator you can confidently compare the result to those of the reference samples (provided enough SNPs are used), and then be able to make sensible inferences about its genetic origins."

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search?q=Calculator+effect

Eurogenes EUTEST

Population
SOUTH_BALTIC 23.82 Pct
EAST_EURO 25.18 Pct
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.12 Pct
ATLANTIC 15.63 Pct
WEST_MED 3.80 Pct
EAST_MED 0.05 Pct
WEST_ASIAN 1.84 Pct
MIDDLE_EASTERN -
SOUTH_ASIAN 1.39 Pct
EAST_AFRICAN -
EAST_ASIAN 0.25 Pct
SIBERIAN 3.92 Pct
WEST_AFRICAN -

MDLP K16 Modern

Population
Amerindian 1.34 Pct
Ancestor -
Steppe 22.50 Pct
Indian 0.36 Pct
Arctic 0.48 Pct
Australian -
Caucasian 14.71 Pct
EastAfrican -
NorthEastEuropean 33.56 Pct
NearEast -
Neolithic 22.87 Pct
NorthAfrican -
Oceanic 0.71 Pct
Siberian 3.46 Pct
SouthEastAsian -
Subsaharian -


MDLP gives a bit misleading results, because Northeast European already includes Steppe and Neolithic proportions.

[Leto]

@Lemminkäinen
Do you think the Indo-Europeans (Fatyanovo-Balanovo) in Central Russia were later Uralicized by Uralic speakers coming from the East? How would the alleged FU-speaking tribes around Moscow be otherwise explained?

The pink area
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Fatyanovo-culture.jpg/547px-Fatyanovo-culture.jpg

[Östsvensk]

@östsvesk

I can't use Dodecad, because I am a part of his reference data and the result would be distorted by the "calculator effect".

"Here's the good news: the Eurogenes calculators don't suffer from the calculator effect. That's because the reference samples are treated in the same way as the test samples, so there's only one variable: ancestry. What this means is that when you run a modern or ancient genome with a Eurogenes calculator you can confidently compare the result to those of the reference samples (provided enough SNPs are used), and then be able to make sensible inferences about its genetic origins."

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search?q=Calculator+effect

Eurogenes EUTEST

Population
SOUTH_BALTIC 23.82 Pct
EAST_EURO 25.18 Pct
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.12 Pct
ATLANTIC 15.63 Pct
WEST_MED 3.80 Pct
EAST_MED 0.05 Pct
WEST_ASIAN 1.84 Pct
MIDDLE_EASTERN -
SOUTH_ASIAN 1.39 Pct
EAST_AFRICAN -
EAST_ASIAN 0.25 Pct
SIBERIAN 3.92 Pct
WEST_AFRICAN -

MDLP K16 Modern

Population
Amerindian 1.34 Pct
Ancestor -
Steppe 22.50 Pct
Indian 0.36 Pct
Arctic 0.48 Pct
Australian -
Caucasian 14.71 Pct
EastAfrican -
NorthEastEuropean 33.56 Pct
NearEast -
Neolithic 22.87 Pct
NorthAfrican -
Oceanic 0.71 Pct
Siberian 3.46 Pct
SouthEastAsian -
Subsaharian -


MDLP gives a bit misleading results, because Northeast European already includes Steppe and Neolithic proportions.

According to results that Feiichy ran and posted in another thread, the Komi were 11% Nganasan and they pull nearer to Siberians (but much closer to Europeans) on that PCA that I posted. Finnish-speaking populations are still with the Europeans. Komi are exotic whites, basically. :p

[Lemminkäinen]

According to results that Feiichy ran and posted in another thread, the Komi were 11% Nganasan and they pull nearer to Siberians (but much closer to Europeans) on that PCA that I posted. Finnish-speaking populations are still with the Europeans. Komi are exotic whites, basically. :p

Yeah, Komis are a weird group including western and Siberian admixtures. I have a feeling that they are not a homogeneous group and consist of two of more genetic profiles speaking same native language. So the sample group gives in some tests results difficult to explain.

You another question about Volga people. I have no idea how for instance Mordvas can be where they are nowadays. Did they come from east of west? They speak FU language, but are genetically very close Russians. In my opinion people shouldn't link together ethnic groups only by some minor admixture, like Siberian. North Russian have Siberian admixture regardless of the language they speak, as well as many other people around Siberia. Is it so that people speaking FU languages have Siberian admixture because they speak FU language or is the Siberian admixture common everywhere near Siberia? The answer is either one, depending on where you place your attention.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

@Lemminkäinen What's your take on Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov being Uralic?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-boo-people-earliest-uralic-speakers.html

[Östsvensk]

Yeah, Komis are a weird group including western and Siberian admixtures. I have a feeling that they are not a homogeneous group and consist of two of more genetic profiles speaking same native language. So the sample group gives in some tests results difficult to explain.

You another question about Volga people. I have no idea how for instance Mordvas can be where they are nowadays. Did they come from east of west? They speak FU language, but are genetically very close Russians. In my opinion people shouldn't link together ethnic groups only by some minor admixture, like Siberian. North Russian have Siberian admixture regardless of the language they speak, as well as many other people around Siberia. Is it so that people speaking FU languages have Siberian admixture because they speak FU language or is the Siberian admixture common everywhere near Siberia? The answer is either one, depending on where you place your attention.

On the MDLP K23b spreadsheet, Mordovians seem pretty similar to a distinct group of (Northern?) Russians, yes. Very little European early farmer and very high European Hunter-Gatherer. They both have 5% East Siberian, although most Russians lack this. Apart from that, quite similar.

[Lemminkäinen]

@Lemminkäinen What's your take on Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov being Uralic?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-boo-people-earliest-uralic-speakers.html

That's interesting. Two of Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov samples belong to N1c1 and are straight ancestral for all N1c1 around the Baltic Sea region. We have no other ancient samples in this category, but linguists obviously deny this possibility and suggest that we will sooner or later find ancient ancestral samples for Baltic N1c1 somewhere near Volga. We really need now those Volga samples, otherwise linguists and also many geneticists will have hard times. Everyone now waits for those finds, because Volga has been a winning horse for many of us.

[Leto]

According to results that Feiichy ran and posted in another thread, the Komi were 11% Nganasan and they pull nearer to Siberians (but much closer to Europeans) on that PCA that I posted. Finnish-speaking populations are still with the Europeans. Komi are exotic whites, basically. :p
The dozen of academic samples I have range from 15% to 21% Mongoloid with an average of ~18%. So yeah, borderline white if you want to use the term.

In terms of linguistics the Komi and Udmurts are believed to have split sometime after 800 AD. The former would have migrated northwards to what is now the Rep of Komi and the latter would have remained in the Volga Bulgar sphere of influence.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Permic_languages.png

[Harkonnen]

On the MDLP K23b spreadsheet, Mordovians seem pretty similar to a distinct group of (Northern?) Russians, yes. Very little European early farmer and very high European Hunter-Gatherer. They both have 5% East Siberian, although most Russians lack this. Apart from that, quite similar.

That is absolutely false statement. Mordovians have Turkic Mongolian ancestry.

[Harkonnen]

The dozen of academic samples I have range from 15% to 21% Mongoloid with an average of ~18%. So yeah, borderline white if you want to use the term.

In terms of linguistics the Komi and Udmurts are believed to have split sometime after 800 AD. The former would have migrated northwards to what is now the Rep of Komi and the latter would have remained in the Volga Bulgar sphere of influence.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Permic_languages.png

In reality they have much more Mongolian ancestry. Also Komi's are in big Picture same as Finns genetically. So if Komi's are not white. Neither are Finns.

[Östsvensk]

That is absolutely false statement. Mordovians have Turkic Mongolian ancestry.

I said that they appeared to be more like Russians who spoke a Finnic language, and not genetically like Finns.

[Harkonnen]

I said that they appeared to be more like Russians who spoke a Finnic language, and not genetically like Finns.

That is also absolutely false statement.

[Harkonnen]

That's interesting. Two of Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov samples belong to N1c1 and are straight ancestral for all N1c1 around the Baltic Sea region. We have no other ancient samples in this category, but linguists obviously deny this possibility and suggest that we will sooner or later find ancient ancestral samples for Baltic N1c1 somewhere near Volga. We really need now those Volga samples, otherwise linguists and also many geneticists will have hard times. Everyone now waits for those finds, because Volga has been a winning horse for many of us.

Problematic for your phantasies is that you can't really construct Tarandians (Iron Age Estonians, in other words Proto-Finnic) on the basis of BOO.

[Östsvensk]

That is also absolutely false statement.

That was my original statement, as far as I know. On the MDLP K27 spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sF-FvAXaUM3VeMSJpL6Ysr-53TjfkHZcywyE8wwNHJ8/edit#gid=0), they seem to be fairly close to North Russians. But yeah, turn it around and North Russians become Mordovians who speak Russian. Does that sound better?

Russian North-Russian Estonian Finland Finn South_Finn North_Finn Mordovian

North-European Baltic 66,10 51,47 60,98 24,63 28,73 26,66 10,72 55,75
Baltic-Finnic 5,76 14,38 17,15 58,08 52,64 54,38 79,77 6,16
Uralic 1,48 9,04 1,19 2,21 1,75 2,27 0,54 7,04

[Not a Cop]

That was my original statement, as far as I know. On the MDLP K27 spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sF-FvAXaUM3VeMSJpL6Ysr-53TjfkHZcywyE8wwNHJ8/edit#gid=0), they seem to be fairly close to North Russians. But yeah, turn it around and North Russians become Mordovians who speak Russian. Does that sound better?

Russian North-Russian Estonian Finland Finn South_Finn North_Finn Mordovian

North-European Baltic 66,10 51,47 60,98 24,63 28,73 26,66 10,72 55,75
Baltic-Finnic 5,76 14,38 17,15 58,08 52,64 54,38 79,77 6,16
Uralic 1,48 9,04 1,19 2,21 1,75 2,27 0,54 7,04

That's a strange North-Russian, here is my grandmother:

0.00% Nilotic-Omotic
1.25% Ancestral-South-Ind.
47.21% North-European-Balt.
3.76% Uralic
0.35% Australo-Melanesian
0.91% East-Siberian
0.39% Ancestral-Yayoi
6.43% Caucasian-Near-East.
0.00% Tibeto-Burman
0.16% Austronesian
0.01% Central-African-Pygm
0.00% Central-African-HG
0.00% Nilo-Saharian
0.52% North-African
3.43% Gedrosia-Caucasian
1.29% Cushitic
0.32% Congo-Pygmean
0.00% Bushmen
0.45% South-Meso-Amerind.
8.97% South-West-European
0.00% North-Amerindian
0.01% Arabic
0.81% North-Circumpolar
1.70% Kalash
0.00% Papuan-Australian
22.02% Baltic-Finnic
0.00% Bantu

[Harkonnen]

That was my original statement, as far as I know. On the MDLP K27 spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sF-FvAXaUM3VeMSJpL6Ysr-53TjfkHZcywyE8wwNHJ8/edit#gid=0), they seem to be fairly close to North Russians. But yeah, turn it around and North Russians become Mordovians who speak Russian. Does that sound better?

Russian North-Russian Estonian Finland Finn South_Finn North_Finn Mordovian

North-European Baltic 66,10 51,47 60,98 24,63 28,73 26,66 10,72 55,75
Baltic-Finnic 5,76 14,38 17,15 58,08 52,64 54,38 79,77 6,16
Uralic 1,48 9,04 1,19 2,21 1,75 2,27 0,54 7,04

Yes in that run Mordovians do indeed get very little of that Finnish component, which in my view, after careful examination of several different types of methods of ancestry estimation, does reflect some sort of racial reality. In other words it does not seem likely that the majority North European ancestry in Mordovians is closely related to Finnish type of North European ancestry.

[Lemminkäinen]

That is absolutely false statement. Mordovians have Turkic Mongolian ancestry.

The Asian part can be Mongolian, but around 90% of their ancestry is very similar with Northern Russians.

[Lemminkäinen]

Problematic for your phantasies is that you can't really construct Tarandians (Iron Age Estonians, in other words Proto-Finnic) on the basis of BOO.


I neither need to do it, because I don't know who are Tarandians. I know an Iron Age burial custom named Tarand graves though (In Estonia, Finland and Sweden. The fact is that BOO samples are ancestral for all Baltic N1c1. Samples from Tarand graves hold only downstream mutation of BOO samples. I can wait until Volga Kama genes are connected to Estonians and before that I need to say really nothing.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

In Jeong et al. 2019 (The genetic history of admixture across inner Eurasia) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332747456_The_genetic_history_of_admixture_across_ inner_Eurasia), the Mongoloid ancestry of Tatars (other than Zabolotniye Tatars (http://alexanderaksakov.com/stories/zabolotie/zabolotie.html), who are Tatarified Khanty/Mansi/Nenets) was modeled as Ulchi (Tungusic), but Mordvins and other Uralics were modeled as Nganasan.


For the forest-tundra population to the west of the Urals, Nganasan + Srubnaya + WHG + LBK_EN and its submodel provide a good fit, while additional ANE-related contribution (AG3) is required for those to the east of the Urals (Enets, Selkups, Kets and Mansi). For the steppe-forest populations, Srubnaya + Ulchi, Srubnaya + Ulchi + AG3 and Srubnaya + Nganasan provide a good fit. For each target population, we present the simplest best fitting model, that is, the one with the smallest number of references and with the biggest P value. The 5 cM jackknifing standard errors are marked by horizontal bars. Details of the model information are presented in Supplementary Tables 5 and 8. *P = 0.01–0.05; **P < 0.01.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332747456/figure/fig5/AS:755606516400135@1557162040393/QpAdm-based-admixture-models-for-the-forest-tundra-and-steppe-forest-cline.png

[Lemminkäinen]

That's a strange North-Russian, here is my grandmother:

0.00% Nilotic-Omotic
1.25% Ancestral-South-Ind.
47.21% North-European-Balt.
3.76% Uralic
0.35% Australo-Melanesian
0.91% East-Siberian
0.39% Ancestral-Yayoi
6.43% Caucasian-Near-East.
0.00% Tibeto-Burman
0.16% Austronesian
0.01% Central-African-Pygm
0.00% Central-African-HG
0.00% Nilo-Saharian
0.52% North-African
3.43% Gedrosia-Caucasian
1.29% Cushitic
0.32% Congo-Pygmean
0.00% Bushmen
0.45% South-Meso-Amerind.
8.97% South-West-European
0.00% North-Amerindian
0.01% Arabic
0.81% North-Circumpolar
1.70% Kalash
0.00% Papuan-Australian
22.02% Baltic-Finnic
0.00% Bantu

Mordvas have only 15% N1 and 36% R1a and 11% R1b, North Russians are very similar. These numbers are based on academic samples. Karelian, Vepsian and Ingrian ancestries are common in Northwest Russia, from St Petersnurg to Lake Onega, but North Russian academic samples are near Vologda and from other areas where people have not spoken Finnic language during known history.

[Lemminkäinen]

In Jeong et al. 2019 (The genetic history of admixture across inner Eurasia) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332747456_The_genetic_history_of_admixture_across_ inner_Eurasia), the Mongoloid ancestry of Tatars (other than Zabolotniye Tatars (http://alexanderaksakov.com/stories/zabolotie/zabolotie.html), who are Tatarified Khanty/Mansi/Nenets) was modeled as Ulchi (Tungusic), but Mordvins and other Uralics were modeled as Nganasan.


]

It is only a decision of testers. We can use Naganasans, Mongols or whatever references in our tests. A Chinese study tested Finns using Mongolians and the results was that they have Mongolian admixture. Only way to see the difference is to sort Asian admixtures in the same test.

[Leto]

In Jeong et al. 2019 (The genetic history of admixture across inner Eurasia) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332747456_The_genetic_history_of_admixture_across_ inner_Eurasia), the Mongoloid ancestry of Tatars (other than Zabolotniye Tatars (http://alexanderaksakov.com/stories/zabolotie/zabolotie.html), who are Tatarified Khanty/Mansi/Nenets) was modeled as Ulchi (Tungusic), but Mordvins and other Uralics were modeled as Nganasan.

Pretty sure Volga Tatars and Chuvash also have a lot of Uralic ancestry, not to mention they are 75-80% West Eurasian (Mishar Tatars can reach 85% West Eurasian).
Pre-Turkic Scythian samples from the Volga region were over 10% East Eurasian.

[Harkonnen]

I neither need to do it, because I don't know who are Tarandians. I know an Iron Age burial custom named Tarand graves though (In Estonia, Finland and Sweden. The fact is that BOO samples are ancestral for all Baltic N1c1. Samples from Tarand graves hold only downstream mutation of BOO samples. I can wait until Volga Kama genes are connected to Estonians and before that I need to say really nothing.

So what, Oase is ancestral to all N1c1, means Finnic origin is in Romania :rolleyes: Dude. You are getting up there in age, and it's starting to show in your thinking. Sorry, has to be said. My steak (point in halla-ahoian lingua) is this: The Tarand graves hold people who are recent newcomers from East. Now, can the early Tarand graves individuals be modelled with BOO?
Nope. Now, if it was exactly Volga where Tarand men is besides the point. Could very likely be that there's something wrong with Jaakko's et al, Volga calcs. In fact I'm starting to lean in this thinking. But somewhere from east it is. And it does not either look these men popped from Kola.

[Harkonnen]

Pretty sure Volga Tatars and Chuvash also have a lot of Uralic ancestry, not to mention they are 75-80% West Eurasian (Mishar Tatars can reach 85% West Eurasian).
Pre-Turkic Scythian samples from the Volga region were over 10% East Eurasian.

I am so fucking fed up with your Lukashenka propaganda. Goddamn Lukashenka agent.

Let me fucking remind you that Pre-Turkic Tarand men were less East Eurasian than modern Estonians. The Tarand men were de facto Uralians who brought Finnic language to Estonia. How much do Volga Tatars and Chuvashes score Tarand??

[Lemminkäinen]

So what, Oase is ancestral to all N1c1, means Finnic origin is in Romania :rolleyes: Dude. You are getting up there in age, and it's starting to show in your thinking. Sorry, has to be said. My steak (point in halla-ahoian lingua) is this: The Tarand graves hold people who are recent newcomers from East. Now, can the early Tarand graves individuals be modelled with BOO?
Nope. Now, if it was exactly Volga where Tarand men is besides the point. Could very likely be that there's something wrong with Jaakko's et al, Volga calcs. In fact I'm starting to lean in this thinking. But somewhere from east it is. And it does not either look these men popped from Kola.

You can hate facts, I can live with them.

Here is the N1c1 tree from what we now know based on know samples. BOO samples are L392 without known downstream mutations:

N-L1026/L392 formed 6400 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
- N-VL29 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybp
-- N-BY33087 formed 1750 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp
id:YF11696FIN [FI-ES]
--- N-BY33088 formed 950 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp
id:YF14404RUS [RU-NGR]
id:YF11830FIN [FI-IS]

And the official tree made by scientists, where Z1936 is a downstream mutation of L392/L1026:

N-Z1936 formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp

-- N-Z1934 formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp
id:YF15740RUS [RU-MOW]

--- N-Z1928 formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp


---- N-Z1925 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp

----- N-Y29767 formed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybp
id:YF08170SWE [SE-BD]
id:YF04765SWE [SE-BD]
----- N-Y62904 formed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp
id:YF12523FIN [FI-LS]
id:YF06892FIN [FI-OL]

If something new becomes apparent, I'll take it into account.

[Harkonnen]

It is only a decision of testers. We can use Naganasans, Mongols or whatever references in our tests. A Chinese study tested Finns using Mongolians and the results was that they have Mongolian admixture. Only way to see the difference is to sort Asian admixtures in the same test.

I believe these images should look familiar to you:

https://i.ibb.co/GFvzZFx/ingrianmordva.png (https://ibb.co/stv8Ttm)
https://i.ibb.co/1RdcW3H/saamibashkir.png (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/z54Hhhr/altaiansaami.png (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/zV1VG0y/estoniamordva.png (https://ibb.co/chPhD7G)

Sorry about bad pic quality :D

[Lemminkäinen]

I recall those pictures, but what is your point here? Rare alleles show that there is a strong Saami-like ancestry in Fennoscandia extending somewhat wider and for example Eskimos and Mongols don't share it. But Eskimos and Mongols have very little common with BOO samples. Asia is a big place and has large diversity. Only fools ( and proud Chinese scientists) think that Asia, being many times bigger than Europe, is something homologous.

[Harkonnen]

You can hate facts, I can live with them.

Here is the N1c1 tree from what we now know based on know samples. BOO samples are L392 without known downstream mutations:

N-L1026/L392 formed 6400 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
- N-VL29 formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybp
-- N-BY33087 formed 1750 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp
id:YF11696FIN [FI-ES]
--- N-BY33088 formed 950 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp
id:YF14404RUS [RU-NGR]
id:YF11830FIN [FI-IS]

And the official tree made by scientists, where Z1936 is a downstream mutation of L392/L1026:

N-Z1936 formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp

-- N-Z1934 formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp
id:YF15740RUS [RU-MOW]

--- N-Z1928 formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp


---- N-Z1925 formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp

----- N-Y29767 formed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybp
id:YF08170SWE [SE-BD]
id:YF04765SWE [SE-BD]
----- N-Y62904 formed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp
id:YF12523FIN [FI-LS]
id:YF06892FIN [FI-OL]

If something new becomes apparent, I'll take it into account.

The thing is, it is likely you have narrow skull, which makes you suspect to narrow view of World and existence. It is as if, you are a sitting at the bottom of a well, looking at the World through that narrow opening above you. I urge you to climb up that well, and see the World as it is.

What you are essentially suggesting here is that not only all Baltic-Finnic N1c1 etc, but also N1c1 in East Siberian populations like Nanai and Tsukti (because tadaa East Siberians hold only downstream mutations of BOO), has it's origin in Bronze Age North Scandinavia, because of that one-time occurrence found in archaelogical record.

Try to see, that there is no need to presume that this upstream mutation existed only in one Place inside time. For reasons I explained before, I'm going to presume it's rather unlikely Finnish N1c1 comes from that Kola sample.

[Harkonnen]

It has to be said, BOO was very broadskulled, so they are family indeed ;)

[Lemminkäinen]

The thing is, it is likely you have narrow skull, which makes you suspect to narrow view of World and existence. It is as if, you are a sitting at the bottom of a well, looking at the World through that narrow opening above you. I urge you to climb up that well, and see the World as it is.



Haha, you logic sounds superior.




What you are essentially suggesting here is that not only all Baltic-Finnic N1c1 etc, but also N1c1 in East Siberian populations like Nanai and Tsukti (because tadaa East Siberians hold only downstream mutations of BOO), has it's origin in Bronze Age North Scandinavia, because of that one-time occurrence found in archaelogical record.



Why people from Kola Peninsula should have gone several thousands kilometers to Chukchi Peninsula? It would have been much easier to travel only 300 km to Finland.




Try to see, that there is no need to presume that this upstream mutation existed only in one Place inside time. For reasons I explained before, I'm going to presume it's rather unlikely Finnish N1c1 comes from that Kola sample.

I understand it very well, but I am keen to stick to the facts. That's why we think in different ways.

[Lemminkäinen]

It has to be said, BOO was very broadskulled, so they are family indeed ;)

Not yours my friend, if you avatar resembles you ;)

[Harkonnen]

Not yours my friend, if you avatar resembles you ;)

Right now I'm tasting rust and ink mixed with metallic chalk. It must be that bitter taste of deceit you are trying to feed me ;) Unless it is your perception of reality which deceives you? As you can see my friend, which ever way we turn this table, yours remains the losing team ;)

Avatar is indeed me, and as I have declared before, I so belong to that notorious race of BROADSKULLS. You see metrics is a reality like no other. It removes all lenses between the subject and the object, really any imaginable party taking part in this shared (?) existence. I hope we can share this realization. No, that's not the right word even; lets call it revelation. Sounds fancy and meaningful, and likely, in the end, means absolutely nothing. Just hollow words in a hollow World. So fitting to the overall tone of this discussion.

How to question who we fundamentally are? When we observe the reality around us, we always do it through a lens. Now understand, that lens is not your friend, that lens infact keeps you away from the truth. It narrows in too close, so that you fail to see the big picture. Like in that well-metaphor I gave you. The doors of perception zoom in from far out. It is of course a paradox like everything else.

Your eyes fail you. See, the real world is not hiding inside your head. The real World is calipers and metrics. That is who we are.

Inside your head, to infinity, exists only reflections of symmetry, solely depending on the terrifying chaos of perspective, that illusive tyrant, capable of changing even the impossible into possible, thus completely eliminating any structure and order from both universes; the one on the outside looking in, and the one in the inside looking out.

But like I said , that is only illusion. Real World exists only in metrics.

[Östsvensk]

The thing is, it is likely you have narrow skull, which makes you suspect to narrow view of World and existence. It is as if, you are a sitting at the bottom of a well, looking at the World through that narrow opening above you. I urge you to climb up that well, and see the World as it is.

What you are essentially suggesting here is that not only all Baltic-Finnic N1c1 etc, but also N1c1 in East Siberian populations like Nanai and Tsukti (because tadaa East Siberians hold only downstream mutations of BOO), has it's origin in Bronze Age North Scandinavia, because of that one-time occurrence found in archaelogical record.

Try to see, that there is no need to presume that this upstream mutation existed only in one Place inside time. For reasons I explained before, I'm going to presume it's rather unlikely Finnish N1c1 comes from that Kola sample.

He is I1 and mtDNA H with a narrow skull. I wonder if he is more "Swedish" than the Finland-Swedish couple from Finland Proper/Nyland who I had dinner with last night that mentioned that they were both blood group B. My mother always said that belonging to B indicated Finnish ancestry. :thumb001:

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/rastyper-karta07.jpg

[Harkonnen]

He is I1 and mtDNA H with a narrow skull. I wonder if he is more "Swedish" than the Finland-Swedish couple from Finland Proper/Nyland who I had dinner with last night that mentioned that they were both blood group B. My mother always said that belonging to B indicated Finnish ancestry. :thumb001:

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/rastyper-karta07.jpg

My maternal I1 grandfather had massively broad skull. My paternal N1c1 grandadd was actually very longfaced. Very suspicious looking.

[Östsvensk]

My maternal I1 grandfather had massively broad skull. My paternal N1c1 grandadd was actually very longfaced. Very suspicious looking.

Is there big segregation going on between the broad-skulled and narrow-skulled in Finland? Imagine Lemminkäinen with his SW Finnish metrics in Savonia. :D

[Lemminkäinen]

Is there big segregation going on between the broad-skulled and narrow-skulled in Finland? Imagine Lemminkäinen with his SW Finnish metrics in Savonia. :D

Actually my wife is from Karelia and her father belonged to N1c1. I can easily tolerate it and I hope that my friend Broadskull could also love all kind of skulls :lightbul: And I am a grandfather of half-jews. So my grandchildren are real mongrels :eek:

[Leto]

And I am a grandfather of half-jews. So my grandchildren are real mongrels :eek:
Eastern European Ashkenazi? I wonder where they would plot, never seen such DNA results. Two very distant genetic groups.

[Lemminkäinen]

Eastern European Ashkenazi? I wonder where they would plot, never seen such DNA results. Two very distant genetic groups.

Yes, immigrants who fled after the Russian revolution. 23andme says that 99% Ashkenazi, but I have not children's DNA.

[Leto]

Yes, immigrants who fled after the Russian revolution. 23andme says that 99% Ashkenazi, but I have not children's DNA.
Sorry for asking this kind of questions but do they look Finnish or not?

[Harkonnen]

Is there big segregation going on between the broad-skulled and narrow-skulled in Finland? Imagine Lemminkäinen with his SW Finnish metrics in Savonia. :D

Actually, if skull measurements are to be trusted, Southwest Finns belong safely to broadskull race in absolute sense. In fact the average skull breadth is exactly the same in Southwest Finland and Savo, and average Karelia is actually millimeter narrower than Southwest Finland. The difference is bigger in skull length, SW Finland has 5-10 mm longer skulls. Peculiar thing about these numbers though, is that Savonia, and especially Karelia, has much higher variation in metrics than SW Finland.

I've no clue where these extremely narrow Savo and Karelia skulls could come, but in any case, they can't come from Saami because average Saami is even broader. But the absolute broadness king comes from the Karelian sample with whopping 185mm. Also the broadest Savo skull is broader than the broadest Saami skull.


narrowest Karelian skull is 124mm, and broadest Karelian skull is 185mm
narrowest SW Finnish skull is 141mm, and broadest SW Finnish skull is 168mm
narrowest Savo skull is 137mm, and broadest Savo skull is 174mm

Longest Karelian skull is 208mm, shortest Karelian skull is 154mm
Longest SW Finnish skull is 209mm, shortest SW Finnish skull is 177mm
Longest Savo skull is 214mm, shortest Savo skull is 166mm

*Varsinais-Suomi (male)
A.O. Arho - Anthropologische Untersuchungen in den Landschaften Åland und Varsinais-Suomi (Helsinki, 1934)
Head lenght 194.18 (177-209)
Head breadth 153.46 (141-168)

*Savo - male*
Niilo Pesonen, Anthropologische Untersuchungen an Bewohnern der Landschaft Savo (Helsinki, 1937)
Head lenght 189.41 (166-214)
Head breadth 153.49 (137-174)

*Average Carelian - male*
T.Y.Roschier - Anthropologische Untersuchungen an Bewohnern der Landschaft Karjala (Helsinki, 1931)
Head lenght 186.28 (154-208)
Head breadth 152.36 (124-185)

*Sami (male)*
Esko K. Näätänen - Über die anthropologie der Lappen in Suomi (Helsinki 1936)
Head lenght 185.6 (167-198)
Head breadth 156.2 (137-171)

[Lemminkäinen]

Sorry for asking this kind of questions but do they look Finnish or not?

Seeing pictures would be only way to estimate it, but I have no right to show them. It is not easy to answer, because children's appearance changes when they grow up and I don't know how do Finns look like :rolleyes:

[Harkonnen]

Actually my wife is from Karelia and her father belonged to N1c1. I can easily tolerate it and I hope that my friend Broadskull could also love all kind of skulls :lightbul: And I am a grandfather of half-jews. So my grandchildren are real mongrels :eek:

https://i.ibb.co/4STf77K/11253499575-5213f16de8-b.jpg (https://ibb.co/7pWzXXj)

:lightbul: Guy in bottom left row (from viewers pov) has cephalic index of 84, so he is in fact hyper-brachycephalic. It is also obvious by just looking at his skull that he has massive absolute measurements in both skull height, and skull breadth categories :lightbul: Surely this BROADSKULL specimen is superior humanoid to the dolicocephalic australoid neanderthals to his right and above :lightbul:

[Lemminkäinen]

@Broadskull,

it could be hard to believe, but I have very little interest in skulls and my pet topic is history. It is also true that even counting all on forums like this I can't find enough knowledge about Finns to have fruitful discussion on this theme. Just google in English and come to reality. So, you are free to make your skull demonstrations and if someone loves to share with you, I am happy for you, but let me make it clear, this someone is not me.

[Arhat]

@Lemminkäinen
Do you think the Indo-Europeans (Fatyanovo-Balanovo) in Central Russia were later Uralicized by Uralic speakers coming from the East? How would the alleged FU-speaking tribes around Moscow be otherwise explained?

The pink area
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Fatyanovo-culture.jpg/547px-Fatyanovo-culture.jpg

The history of this region is poorly understood and some new archaelogical and genetic studies should give a much better picture. As far as i know Volosovo (Sakhtysh site in the Ivanovo oblast ) prior to Fatyanovo was R1b-M269, R1a, I2a and Q. It seems that HGs there also had links to Narva HGs who were also mostly R1b but with a lot of WHG so Volosovo could actually be quite a western HG group.

Later Fatyanovo pushed from the southwest into the region and rumours talk about R1b-P312 there which actually is today mostly present in West Europe. I also heard about R1a-Z80 in late Volosovo/early Fatyanovo. Anyways Fatyanovo groups were pushed away by Abashevo groups which according to rumours were R1a this already happend prior to Finno-Ugrian migrations into this region. Also Para-Balto-Slavs pushed probably from the west also into this region. So genuine Fatyanovo ancestry was already low when Finno-Ugrians arrived. Finno-Ugrians also lack R1b-P312 which Fatyanovo seemed to have but this are rumours so maybe this will turn out not correct

[Gota_type_]

As expected meds have the lowest siberian admixture.

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-07483-5/MediaObjects/41467_2018_7483_Fig3_HTML.png

In what Eurogenes we Spaniards don´t have Siberian? Most of the Spaniard I have seen on Eurogenes have Siberian. I even score a good amount.

By the way, a finnish looking Spaniard with broad skull.
http://www.quadandjet.com/elementosWeb/gestionCajas/QAJ/Image/Dani_vila_quad_03.jpg
http://www.quadandjet.com/elementosWeb/gestionCajas/QAJ/Image/Dani_vila_quad_09.jpg