Genetic comparison of Macedonia, Thrace and Bulgaria

[Kaspias]

Based on Eurogenes K13.

https://i.ibb.co/ydS8jCY/resim.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/N7TqJq9/clustering.jpg

[Sora]

Nice & very informative :o Thank you

[Leto]

Haskovo oblast is supposedly the most R1a part of Bulgaria (nearly 30%). Is that reflected in the autosomal makeup in any way?

[Lucas]

Based on Eurogenes K13.



https://i.ibb.co/N7TqJq9/clustering.jpg

I have question why Turk_Crete is grouped with northern Greece? It is reflection of his origin of random similarity?

[Kaspias]

I have question why Turk_Crete is grouped with northern Greece? It is reflection of his origin of random similarity?

Turk_Burgas and Greek_Istanbul the populations that carry most East Med except for Crete. There are no Central Greeks, Greek Islanders or Anatolian Turks in this clustering which Turk_Crete could shift so the algorithm prefers the closest one.

*The reason why Turk_Burgas have the highest East Med is Burgas region has huge Greek genetic influence comes from Greek colonies, even Bulgarians from the region carry such East Med.
**Istanbul have Anatolian influence.

[Kaspias]

Haskovo oblast is supposedly the most R1a part of Bulgaria (nearly 30%). Is that reflected in the autosomal makeup in any way?

That sample was actually from Central Bulgaria(Hisarya) I corrected it in the vahaduo spreadsheet but forgot to edit it here.

Haskovo supposed to get 22-22 Baltic/NA considering the results from neighbor cities. But if i remember correctly they have additional Baltic input(24Bal/20NA) for a Thrace region.

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Kaspias; 6440072] Тази извадка всъщност беше от Централна България (Хисаря) Поправих я в електронната таблица vahaduo, но забравих да я редактирам тук.

Хасково трябваше да получи 22-22 Балтика / НС, като се има предвид резултатите от съседни градове. Но ако си спомням правилно, те имат допълнителен балтийски вход (24Bal / 20NA) за регион на Тракия. [/ ЦИТАТ]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Bulgarians

[Kaspias]

[QUOTE = Kaspias; 6440072] Тази извадка всъщност беше от Централна България (Хисаря) Поправих я в електронната таблица vahaduo, но забравих да я редактирам тук.

Хасково трябваше да получи 22-22 Балтика / НС, като се има предвид резултатите от съседни градове. Но ако си спомням правилно, те имат допълнителен балтийски вход (24Bal / 20NA) за регион на Тракия. [/ ЦИТАТ]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Bulgarians

May i ask you if have you ever seen a pure Anatolian Bulgarian result?

[pelikarski]

Turk_Burgas and Greek_Istanbul the populations that carry most East Med except for Crete. There are no Central Greeks, Greek Islanders or Anatolian Turks in this clustering which Turk_Crete could shift so the algorithm prefers the closest one.

*The reason why Turk_Burgas have the highest East Med is Burgas region has huge Greek genetic influence comes from Greek colonies, even Bulgarians from the region carry such East Med.
**Istanbul have Anatolian influence.

Burgas doesn't, but Pomorie and Nesebar do

[Archduke]

*The reason why Turk_Burgas have the highest East Med is Burgas region has huge Greek genetic influence comes from Greek colonies, even Bulgarians from the region carry such East Med.

Burgas region had many Grecomans, who were genetically the same as other Bulgarians. This East Med component comes from the Bulgarian refugees from Eastern Thrace.


Burgas doesn't, but Pomorie and Nesebar do

The current residents of Pomorie are mostly from the Southern parts of Eastern Thrace (like me), there are some mixed Greeks here and there. Nessebar has mixed Eagean Macedonian population and Eastern Thracian. There are no Greeks there, except the dumb Bulgarians who think they have Greek blood because their ancestors come from Eagean Macedonia.

[Kaspias]

Burgas doesn't, but Pomorie and Nesebar do

These regions belong to the Burgas and my sample was from three-person who claimed they are from Burgas. Not only this sample, i remember all of the Burgas results have ever seen was East-Med shifted compared to Bulgarians. Closer to Eastern Thrace Bulgarians than Bulgarian average.


Burgas region had many Grecomans, who were genetically the same as other Bulgarians. This East Med component comes from the Bulgarian refugees from Eastern Thrace.



The current residents of Pomorie are mostly from the Southern parts of Eastern Thrace (like me), there are some mixed Greeks here and there. Nessebar has mixed Eagean Macedonian population and Eastern Thracian. There are no Greeks there, except the dumb Bulgarians who think they have Greek blood because their ancestors come from Eagean Macedonia.

These Greeks don't have the same genetic with Bulgarians. Differ with East Med/West Med ratio and Baltic/NA ratio. Eastern and Western Thrace refugees registered as Bulgarian_Thrace.

[pelikarski]

These regions belong to the Burgas and my sample was from three-person who claimed they are from Burgas. Not only this sample, i remember all of the Burgas results have ever seen was East-Med shifted compared to Bulgarians. Closer to Eastern Thrace Bulgarians than Bulgarian average.



These Greeks don't have the same genetic with Bulgarians. Differ with East Med/West Med ratio and Baltic/NA ratio. Eastern and Western Thrace refugees registered as Bulgarian_Thrace.

What is this sample from Seres?

[Kaspias]

What is this sample from Seres?

Мървашко. From Змийница


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 22.95
2 Baltic 22.58
3 East_Med 19.21
4 West_Med 19.15
5 West_Asian 8.27
6 Red_Sea 5.11
7 South_Asian 1.6
8 Amerindian 0.49
9 Sub-Saharan 0.36
10 Siberian 0.2
11 East_Asian 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 4.99
2 Bulgarian 5.06
3 Serbian 7.64
4 Greek_Thessaly 9.1
5 Tuscan 13.39
6 Moldavian 13.49
7 North_Italian 13.76
8 Italian_Abruzzo 15.47
9 Hungarian 15.53
10 Croatian 16.02
11 West_Sicilian 16.19
12 Central_Greek 16.22
13 East_Sicilian 17.03
14 Austrian 17.67
15 Ashkenazi 18.57
16 Portuguese 19.05
17 Spanish_Galicia 19.46
18 French 19.52
19 East_German 19.57
20 Spanish_Extremadura 19.99

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 64.4% West_Sicilian + 35.6% Estonian_Polish @ 2.43
2 64.1% West_Sicilian + 35.9% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.43
3 58.2% West_Sicilian + 41.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.48
4 68.1% West_Sicilian + 31.9% Lithuanian @ 2.49
5 59.7% West_Sicilian + 40.3% Ukrainian @ 2.68
6 50.3% Croatian + 49.7% West_Sicilian @ 2.71
7 62.4% West_Sicilian + 37.6% Polish @ 2.75
8 64.9% West_Sicilian + 35.1% Belorussian @ 2.85
9 61.2% Croatian + 38.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.89
10 54.8% Moldavian + 45.2% West_Sicilian @ 3.07
11 78.2% Greek_Thessaly + 21.8% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.08
12 62.7% West_Sicilian + 37.3% Southwest_Russian @ 3.09
13 89.2% Romanian + 10.8% Moroccan @ 3.1
14 75.6% Greek_Thessaly + 24.4% Polish @ 3.11
15 61.5% Croatian + 38.5% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.14
16 64.8% Greek_Thessaly + 35.2% Croatian @ 3.14
17 78.2% Serbian + 21.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.17
18 51.6% Croatian + 48.4% East_Sicilian @ 3.18
19 61.4% Croatian + 38.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.19
20 55.1% Serbian + 44.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.19


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_European 38.98
2 Mediterranean 32.99
3 Caucasian 15.4
4 SW_Asian 9.1
5 S_Indian 1.38
6 Horn_Of_Africa 1.09
7 Siberian 0.58
8 W_African 0.38
9 Oceanian 0.04
10 Amerindian 0.03
11 Beringian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Bulgarian 3.84
2 Montenegrin 3.97
3 Romanian 4.12
4 Macedonian 4.85
5 Bosnian 6.5
6 Italian 6.82
7 Greek_Thessaly 9.56
8 Albanian 9.91
9 Serbian 10.04
10 Tuscan 11.74
11 Greek_Central 11.9
12 Spaniard 12.48
13 French 12.71
14 Portuguese 13.65
15 Brazilian 14.27
16 South_German 14.67
17 Croatian 14.81
18 Utahn_White 15.41
19 Hungarian 16.66
20 Austrian 17.41

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.1% Romanian + 4.9% Bedouin_B @ 0.7
2 95.6% Bulgarian + 4.4% Bedouin_B @ 1.32
3 93.6% Romanian + 6.4% Saudi @ 1.38
4 67.6% English + 32.4% Samaritian @ 1.84
5 65.5% Scottish + 34.5% Samaritian @ 1.87
6 67.3% Orcadian + 32.7% Samaritian @ 1.94
7 94.6% Bulgarian + 5.4% Saudi @ 2.07
8 78% French + 22% Bedouin_A @ 2.09
9 94.8% Macedonian + 5.2% Bedouin_B @ 2.23
10 92.9% Macedonian + 7.1% Saudi @ 2.23
11 52.1% Austrian + 47.9% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 2.27
12 63.9% Norwegian + 36.1% Samaritian @ 2.29
13 71.5% Utahn_White + 28.5% Samaritian @ 2.32
14 75.1% French + 24.9% Jordanian @ 2.42
15 93.1% Romanian + 6.9% Bedouin_A @ 2.43
16 92.9% Romanian + 7.1% Yemenese @ 2.44
17 72.5% South_German + 27.5% Samaritian @ 2.49
18 71.2% Utahn_White + 28.8% Jordanian @ 2.55
19 58.5% Ashkenazy_Jew + 41.5% Polish @ 2.6
20 65.7% Ashkenazy_Jew + 34.3% Lithuanian @ 2.63

[bained]

It's actually so funny. I know all my ancestors untill the 1878 were from Central Bulgaria,(fought in April Uprising) but yet I am closer to the Macedonian samples. Unification when?

3.39439704 North_Macedonian
3.48899699 Bulgarian_Southwest
3.62822271 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
3.69859433 Bulgarian_Central
3.76160870 Macedonian_East
5.38296387 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
5.57696154 Bulgarian_Serres
5.70208734 Macedonian_Northwest
5.90185370 Macedonian
6.07454525 Greek_Central-Macedonia
6.14895926 Bulgarian
6.17361320 Romanian_Oltenia
6.32275257 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
6.33091621 Romanian_Muntenia
6.44727850 Vlach_North-Macedonia
6.66528810 Kosovo_Albanian
6.75041480 Greek_Western-Macedonia
6.82836730 Bulgarian_Stara-Zagora
6.83467629 Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
6.93015151 Bulgarian_Gabrovo
7.12012372 Montenegrin
7.19472029 Macedonian_North
7.25481909 Bosniak_Sandzak
7.33406436 Pomak_Nevrokopi
7.49975333 Pomak_Plovdiv

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Kaspias; 6440126] Мога ли да ви попитам дали някога сте виждали чист анатолийски български резултат? [/ QUOTE]
No, I have not seen, because no special study has been done on the different groups of Bulgarians displaced in the late 19th and early 20th century.

[JohnnyP]

94409

[Zzzzz]

It's actually so funny. I know all my ancestors untill the 1878 were from Central Bulgaria,(fought in April Uprising) but yet I am closer to the Macedonian samples. Unification when?

3.39439704 North_Macedonian
3.48899699 Bulgarian_Southwest
3.62822271 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
3.69859433 Bulgarian_Central
3.76160870 Macedonian_East
5.38296387 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
5.57696154 Bulgarian_Serres
5.70208734 Macedonian_Northwest
5.90185370 Macedonian
6.07454525 Greek_Central-Macedonia
6.14895926 Bulgarian
6.17361320 Romanian_Oltenia
6.32275257 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
6.33091621 Romanian_Muntenia
6.44727850 Vlach_North-Macedonia
6.66528810 Kosovo_Albanian
6.75041480 Greek_Western-Macedonia
6.82836730 Bulgarian_Stara-Zagora
6.83467629 Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
6.93015151 Bulgarian_Gabrovo
7.12012372 Montenegrin
7.19472029 Macedonian_North
7.25481909 Bosniak_Sandzak
7.33406436 Pomak_Nevrokopi
7.49975333 Pomak_Plovdiv

There might be some ancestors that came from Macedonia in 17,18 century. For example Rayna Knyaginya had direct descent from Macedonia. 19 century was tough in those places and there were constant waves to the East, people settled in Panagyurishte, Strelcha, Koprivshtitza. Also these settlements had large vlah communities cause sheepherding was one of the main businesses in the region. Also one of the neighborhoods in Koprivshtitza is called Arnaut mahala, after its founder (whether it was Albanian or Bulgarian from that region nobody knows).

Another reason is that the calculator makes us all "Macedonian", I also have Macedonian, Macedonian North West, Pomak Nevrokopi, Macedonian Greece and Turk from N. Macedonia, although I don't have any ancestors from South West BG or Macedonia.

[pulstar]

Where from (which cities or towns) are the sample for North Macedonians by region if you know by any chance?

[Kaspias]

It's actually so funny. I know all my ancestors untill the 1878 were from Central Bulgaria,(fought in April Uprising) but yet I am closer to the Macedonian samples. Unification when?

3.39439704 North_Macedonian
3.48899699 Bulgarian_Southwest
3.62822271 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
3.69859433 Bulgarian_Central
3.76160870 Macedonian_East
5.38296387 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
5.57696154 Bulgarian_Serres
5.70208734 Macedonian_Northwest
5.90185370 Macedonian
6.07454525 Greek_Central-Macedonia
6.14895926 Bulgarian
6.17361320 Romanian_Oltenia
6.32275257 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
6.33091621 Romanian_Muntenia
6.44727850 Vlach_North-Macedonia
6.66528810 Kosovo_Albanian
6.75041480 Greek_Western-Macedonia
6.82836730 Bulgarian_Stara-Zagora
6.83467629 Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
6.93015151 Bulgarian_Gabrovo
7.12012372 Montenegrin
7.19472029 Macedonian_North
7.25481909 Bosniak_Sandzak
7.33406436 Pomak_Nevrokopi
7.49975333 Pomak_Plovdiv

It may just random. Academic Macedonian samples include Vlachs and an Albanian, too. Take my samples into account.


There might be some ancestors that came from Macedonia in 17,18 century. For example Rayna Knyaginya had direct descent from Macedonia. 19 century was tough in those places and there were constant waves to the East, people settled in Panagyurishte, Strelcha, Koprivshtitza. Also these settlements had large vlah communities cause sheepherding was one of the main businesses in the region. Also one of the neighborhoods in Koprivshtitza is called Arnaut mahala, after its founder (whether it was Albanian or Bulgarian from that region nobody knows).

Another reason is that the calculator makes us all "Macedonian", I also have Macedonian, Macedonian North West, Pomak Nevrokopi, Macedonian Greece and Turk from N. Macedonia, although I don't have any ancestors from South West BG or Macedonia.

I'm sure you realized before, but some regions really have similar genetic makeup and if you score one component it is not necessarily you have ancestry from there. I recommend that if you get a region as your major percent although you don't have an ancestor from there, just come to the source section and delete it. You will see that at the 2nd option which algorithm prefer may be more accurate, even may have a closer distance.

[Kaspias]

Where from (which cities or towns) are the sample for North Macedonians by region if you know by any chance?

North was from Kumanovo, Central was from Toplik, Southwest was from Bitola, Northwest was from Tetovo, Greece was from Western Macedonia, Can't remember the East.

[War Chef]

No Gagauz?

[PAGANE]

Minor Asians, Minor Asians, or more commonly known as Anatolian Bulgarians, are a Bulgarian ethnographic group formed mainly as a result of the displacement of Bulgarians between the ages of 16-19 in Northwest Asia Minor in the region between the cities of Canakkale and Bursa. later, in 1914, they moved entirely to Bulgaria. In the 19th century, the Bulgarian community in Asia Minor (Anatolia) lived in one of the most inaccessible areas of the district, away from major roads, in the former Sanjaks of the Ottoman Empire Balakesir and Kaliye Sultani (Canakkale). There are about thirty Bulgarian villages in the area, most of them preserved until 1914. They fall within the administrative boundaries of the Bala, Banderma, Gönen Kaas, the present-day Balikesir Province and the Lapeseki and Boashehir (Biga) Villages, and the present-day Canakkale Province.
The inhabitants of these villages preserve their Bulgarian national consciousness, way of life, language, Orthodox Christian faith, traditional Bulgarian folk verbal culture and folklore.


Villages in the region of Balakesir
Kojabunar, Mander, Alajabair, Göbel, Killik, Kubash, Novo Selo (Yenkyoy), Syuit, Tashkesi, Töyben, Hadzhipunkyo, Chitak, Simavla, Yuren.
Villages in the Canakkale area
Urumche, Cataltepe, Bairamich, Manata, Novo selo (Chiflik), Chaltak, Stengelköy.
Villages from the region of Bursa
Pamukchuk, Karabunar, Bulgarlar.
Villages in the area of ​​Kocaeli
Casdervant
The information about the time of resettlement and about the Bulgarian regions and settlements they came from are contradictory. The official at the Bulgarian Legation in Constantinople, Zlati Cholakov, who visited the Bulgarian villages in 1914 to organize their expatriation in Bulgaria, said that the inhabitants of the villages in Balikesir Sanjak came 200-300 years ago, and those in Sanjak Sanjak ( Canakkale), 100 years ago. The most reliable are the settlements of the Bulgarian villages in the Lapeski and Biga districts, which happened by 1850 and in 1873. These are the newest Bulgarian villages in Asia Minor. Among their first settlers were children who returned to Bulgaria in 1914 already as adults. Kodzhabunarci are known to be migrants mainly from the Ivaylovgrad villages of Deve Dere (Kamilski Dol), Khuhla and Jubryüren (Gornoseltsi). The people of Mander settled almost simultaneously with those of Koja Bunar. Its founders are Bulgarian immigrants from Chirpansko, Stara Zagora and Yambol. Some also identify the villages in Bulgaria from which the first settlers came: Nova mahala, Medovo and Vinarovo, Chirpansko and Ruzhitsa, Yambol region.
The later migrants in Asia Minor are known to be mainly from Jubryuren (Gornoseltsi), Ivaylovgrad region, but there are reports that there are migrants from other villages in the Eastern Rhodopes, the village of Shiroka laka, Achachelebiysko, and the inhabitants of Stengelköy. Asia from Kostursko. The first Bulgarian village for which there is written information is Kuzdervvent (translated into Bulgarian Momin Pass) in the area of ​​Izmit. Information about it dates back to the early 19th century, but the large Bulgarian community, located far west of Kozdervent, remained unknown until the 1960s. The existence of thirty Bulgarian villages in this region of Asia Minor was little or almost unknown to their countrymen in Bulgaria, as well as to many of the Bulgarian colony in Constantinople. The first of those who returned to Bulgaria after 1878. are a group of families / 40 families. / from the village of Göbel. Some of them are located in the villages of Akchelar (Alekovo) and Alexandrovo, Svishtov. the next group from the village of Bairamich settles in the village of Kozludzha (Suvorovo), Varna. At that time, residents of the village of Hadji Paunkyo settled in the village of Araplar (General Kolevo), Provadia. The next emigration to Bulgaria is from 1884 from separate families from Goebel and Mander. They settled in the villages of Stan, Dobroplodno and Arkovna, Provadiysko, Yankovo ​​and Sechishte, Novopazarsko, Cherkovo, Karnobatsko.

[Kaspias]

No Gagauz?

My next stop will be adding Gagauz and Albanian. If you have Gagauz samples already, i would appreciate your help.

[Kaspias]

Minor Asians, Minor Asians, or more commonly known as Anatolian Bulgarians, are a Bulgarian ethnographic group formed mainly as a result of the displacement of Bulgarians between the ages of 16-19 in Northwest Asia Minor in the region between the cities of Canakkale and Bursa. later, in 1914, they moved entirely to Bulgaria. In the 19th century, the Bulgarian community in Asia Minor (Anatolia) lived in one of the most inaccessible areas of the district, away from major roads, in the former Sanjaks of the Ottoman Empire Balakesir and Kaliye Sultani (Canakkale). There are about thirty Bulgarian villages in the area, most of them preserved until 1914. They fall within the administrative boundaries of the Bala, Banderma, Gönen Kaas, the present-day Balikesir Province and the Lapeseki and Boashehir (Biga) Villages, and the present-day Canakkale Province.
The inhabitants of these villages preserve their Bulgarian national consciousness, way of life, language, Orthodox Christian faith, traditional Bulgarian folk verbal culture and folklore.


Villages in the region of Balakesir
Kojabunar, Mander, Alajabair, Göbel, Killik, Kubash, Novo Selo (Yenkyoy), Syuit, Tashkesi, Töyben, Hadzhipunkyo, Chitak, Simavla, Yuren.
Villages in the Canakkale area
Urumche, Cataltepe, Bairamich, Manata, Novo selo (Chiflik), Chaltak, Stengelköy.
Villages from the region of Bursa
Pamukchuk, Karabunar, Bulgarlar.
Villages in the area of ​​Kocaeli
Casdervant
The information about the time of resettlement and about the Bulgarian regions and settlements they came from are contradictory. The official at the Bulgarian Legation in Constantinople, Zlati Cholakov, who visited the Bulgarian villages in 1914 to organize their expatriation in Bulgaria, said that the inhabitants of the villages in Balikesir Sanjak came 200-300 years ago, and those in Sanjak Sanjak ( Canakkale), 100 years ago. The most reliable are the settlements of the Bulgarian villages in the Lapeski and Biga districts, which happened by 1850 and in 1873. These are the newest Bulgarian villages in Asia Minor. Among their first settlers were children who returned to Bulgaria in 1914 already as adults. Kodzhabunarci are known to be migrants mainly from the Ivaylovgrad villages of Deve Dere (Kamilski Dol), Khuhla and Jubryüren (Gornoseltsi). The people of Mander settled almost simultaneously with those of Koja Bunar. Its founders are Bulgarian immigrants from Chirpansko, Stara Zagora and Yambol. Some also identify the villages in Bulgaria from which the first settlers came: Nova mahala, Medovo and Vinarovo, Chirpansko and Ruzhitsa, Yambol region.
The later migrants in Asia Minor are known to be mainly from Jubryuren (Gornoseltsi), Ivaylovgrad region, but there are reports that there are migrants from other villages in the Eastern Rhodopes, the village of Shiroka laka, Achachelebiysko, and the inhabitants of Stengelköy. Asia from Kostursko. The first Bulgarian village for which there is written information is Kuzdervvent (translated into Bulgarian Momin Pass) in the area of ​​Izmit. Information about it dates back to the early 19th century, but the large Bulgarian community, located far west of Kozdervent, remained unknown until the 1960s. The existence of thirty Bulgarian villages in this region of Asia Minor was little or almost unknown to their countrymen in Bulgaria, as well as to many of the Bulgarian colony in Constantinople. The first of those who returned to Bulgaria after 1878. are a group of families / 40 families. / from the village of Göbel. Some of them are located in the villages of Akchelar (Alekovo) and Alexandrovo, Svishtov. the next group from the village of Bairamich settles in the village of Kozludzha (Suvorovo), Varna. At that time, residents of the village of Hadji Paunkyo settled in the village of Araplar (General Kolevo), Provadia. The next emigration to Bulgaria is from 1884 from separate families from Goebel and Mander. They settled in the villages of Stan, Dobroplodno and Arkovna, Provadiysko, Yankovo ​​and Sechishte, Novopazarsko, Cherkovo, Karnobatsko.

I have some migration records from Ottoman registers:

https://i.ibb.co/t88q0tp/74355916-443271326380856-4984865341545906176-n.jpg

>Biga is in Çanakale
>Yenişehir is in Bursa

[War Chef]

Z148665
Z694632
Z887657
Z375110
Z501418
Z502959
Z374037
Z887011
Z749500
Z573968

Source: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?234346-Gagauz-people-admixture&p=4955149&viewfull=1#post4955149

[Kaspias]

Z148665
Z694632
Z887657
Z375110
Z501418
Z502959
Z374037
Z887011
Z749500
Z573968

Source: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?234346-Gagauz-people-admixture&p=4955149&viewfull=1#post4955149

Thank you.

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Kaspias; 6442663] Имам някои миграционни записи от османските регистри:

https://i.ibb.co/t88q0tp/74355916-443271326380856-4984865341545906176-n.jpg

> Biga е в Çanakale
> Yenişehir е в Бурса [/ QUOTE]
As a guide to which parts of Bulgaria they settled after their resettlement. I think that my father has immigrants from the Anatolian Bulgarians, but I do not have the exact information. I'm in the process of searching and exploring whether it will be confirmed

[bained]

I'm sure you realized before, but some regions really have similar genetic makeup and if you score one component it is not necessarily you have ancestry from there. I recommend that if you get a region as your major percent although you don't have an ancestor from there, just come to the source section and delete it. You will see that at the 2nd option which algorithm prefer may be more accurate, even may have a closer distance.


Distance: 1.9032% / 1.90321464 | ADC: 0.5x
54.2 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
15.4 Bulgarian_Central
15.4 Friuli-VG
15.0 Pomak_Plovdiv

Distance: 1.1463% / 1.14633666 | ADC: 0.25x
54.6 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
23.8 Pomak_Plovdiv
15.4 Swiss_Italian
6.2 Pomak_Central-Macedonia

Yikes.

[Zzzzz]

I removed all the Macedonian, Nevrokopi and Drama. Looks more plausible for me - Plovdiv region + North East BG.

Zzzzz, Distance: 2.2192% / 2.21918860 | ADC: 0.5x
62.2 Bulgarian
17.2 Turk_Razgrad
14.6 Pomak_Plovdiv
5.6 Bulgarian_Ruse
0.4 Greek_Northern-Thrace

Target: Zzzzz
Distance: 1.6517% / 1.65173940 | ADC: 0.25x
28.2 Pomak_Plovdiv
22.4 Bulgarian
16.0 Turk_Razgrad
12.2 Bulgarian_Ruse
11.6 Greek_Northern-Thrace
9.2 Bulgarian_Burgas
0.2 Dai
0.2 Karitiana

Kaspias, how many people did you use for Pomak Plovdiv, you know I live there, I know a lot of Pomaks at work, but they all are from Rodope mountains - 2 from Smolyan, 1 from Zlatograd, 1 from Krumovgrad and others. By the way 2 of them have famous relatives. In my grandparents part of the city there is a Pomak neighborhood, which was established around 1950 -1960.

[Lioncourt]

Kaspias, how many people did you use for Pomak Plovdiv, you know I live there, I know a lot of Pomaks at work, but they all are from Rodope mountains - 2 from Smolyan, 1 from Zlatograd, 1 from Krumovgrad and others. By the way 2 of them have famous relatives. In my grandparents part of the city there is a Pomak neighborhood, which was established around 1950 -1960.

Which part is that? Any Pomak I know is a newcomer - after the 1970s - and lives in Trakia.

[OrhanU]

I am from Biga. My mom's side is immigrant from Bulgaria. Grandpa from Shumen and Targovishte, grandma from Plovdiv and possibly Pomak.

I never heard of this Bulgarians that came around Biga and returned back and it mixed my mind.

Here is my kit number if you want to check further.

[Zzzzz]

Which part is that? Any Pomak I know is a newcomer - after the 1970s - and lives in Trakia.

It is Komatevo. Their houses are East from the church. Actually people dont talk about that. When I was a child and I was with grandma at the cemetery, I ask her why some of the graves are positioned differently. Grandma said: Cause they are Pomaks.

[Zzzzz]

.double post

[Lioncourt]

It is Komatevo. Their houses are East from the church. Actually people dont talk about that. When I was a child and I was with grandma at the cemetery, I ask her why some of the graves are positioned differently. Grandma said: Cause they are Pomaks.

Interesting how did they get there, probably migration from the Rhodopes. Pomaks from Rhodopes migrated to unusual places, such as around Haskovo and Kazanlak.

[Zzzzz]

Interesting how did they get there, probably migration from the Rhodopes. Pomaks from Rhodopes migrated to unusual places, such as around Haskovo and Kazanlak.
I guess so. My grandma has passed away and I cant ask her.

[JohnnyP]

North was from Kumanovo, Central was from Toplik, Southwest was from Bitola, Northwest was from Tetovo, Greece was from Western Macedonia, Can't remember the East.
94462

All Macedonian_North,Macedonian_Central,Macedonian_Gre ece,Macedonian_Southwest samples are dominant with Thraco-Cimmerian , but Macedonian_East and Macedonian_Northwest are dominant DA195 sample on Eurogenes K13 Ancient.
Can you tell me what is DA195 sample?Its paleo-balkan or ?

[pulstar]

94462

All Macedonian_North,Macedonian_Central,Macedonian_Gre ece,Macedonian_Southwest samples are dominant with Thraco-Cimmerian , but Macedonian_East and Macedonian_Northwest are dominant DA195 sample on Eurogenes K13 Ancient.
Can you tell me what is DA195 sample?Its paleo-balkan or ?

I'm more surprised with a lot of Western European in Southwest Macedonian (Iberian + Longobard), nearly 30%, given how Bitola and Ohrid are both seen as hub of early South Slavic culture.

[Crn Volk]

I'm more surprised with a lot of Western European in Southwest Macedonian (Iberian + Longobard), nearly 30%, given how Bitola and Ohrid are both seen as hub of early South Slavic culture.

There was a Celtic presence in the region in the past

https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celts-in-macedonia/

[pulstar]

There was a Celtic presence in the region in the past

https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celts-in-macedonia/

Interesting, I thought its more of a myth.

[JohnnyP]

I'm more surprised with a lot of Western European in Southwest Macedonian (Iberian + Longobard), nearly 30%, given how Bitola and Ohrid are both seen as hub of early South Slavic culture.

But you say it right South Slavic "culture" not genetic...Maybe some of these longobards were Balkans ?Iberia is not suprise its medditeranean dnk...
Also there is few "theories" that ancient macedonians had Celtic admixture.

[pulstar]

But you say it right South Slavic "culture" not genetic...Maybe some of these longobards were Balkans ?Iberia is not suprise its medditeranean dnk...
Also there is few "theories" that ancient macedonians had Celtic admixture.

You'd expect culture to follow genetics. Well, never mind.

[JohnnyP]

You'd expect culture to follow genetics. Well, never mind.

Thats another topic, so do you know what is DA195 sample?In many calculators its marked like Thracian or its speculation?

[pulstar]

Thats another topic, so do you know what is DA195 sample?In many calculators its marked like Thracian or its speculation?

Isn't it written Hungary Scythian? It could an actual Hun being dated to 550 BC.

[JohnnyP]

Isn't it written Hungary Scythian? It could an actual Hun being dated to 550 BC.

Yeah but its not Scythian...Never mind...

[Pubiczar]

I'm more surprised with a lot of Western European in Southwest Macedonian (Iberian + Longobard), nearly 30%, given how Bitola and Ohrid are both seen as hub of early South Slavic culture.

There was never any South Slavic culture. There was a Bulgarian culture, a Cyrillic alphabet made by Bulgarian scholars from Preslav and Ohrid literary schools on the orders of the Bulgarian Tsar or Khan, made in the Bulgarian state for the use of the Bulgarians. That's the real history, everything else is just a pitiful try to cut certain parts of the cultural heritage and people off of the Bulgarism with the idea of stealing it in the feature. It's idea promoted mainly by some neighbours of Bulgaria including my own country. Although the Macedonians are now different ethnicity, that doesn't give us right to make up false history etc.

On more about your question, we don't have samples from the early medieval history of the Macedonian region in order to conclude what was the genetic make up of the people in the region and as the other user already said, culture and language doesn't always follow genetics. However, in this case I am certain that it does because the early medieval Bulgarian culture was highly affected by the Eastern Roman culture and the Bulgarian and Macedonian languages although in their lexicon are overwhelming Slavic languages, in their grammar they're closer to Eastern Romance and Albanian languages than they are to the other Slavic languages. Therefore, there shouldn't be surprise why some Macedonians and Bulgarians might be genetically different than other South Slavic ethnicities.

That west plotting as you say is more like south-west since most samples from Ohrid-Bitola region are plotting towards the direction of South Albania. It's mainly a reflection of medieval assimilations and mixing between Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek and Vlach populations. Nothing to do with any Celts whom we don't know if they even survived the Roman invasion let alone the large scale invasions of the early medieval times.

[JohnnyP]

There was never any South Slavic culture. There was a Bulgarian culture, a Cyrillic alphabet made by Bulgarian scholars from Preslav and Ohrid literary schools on the orders of the Bulgarian Tsar or Khan, made in the Bulgarian state for the use of the Bulgarians. That's the real history, everything else is just a pitiful try to cut certain parts of the cultural heritage and people off of the Bulgarism with the idea of stealing it in the feature. It's idea promoted mainly by some neighbours of Bulgaria including my own country. Although the Macedonians are now different ethnicity, that doesn't give us right to make up false history etc.

On more about your question, we don't have samples from the early medieval history of the Macedonian region in order to conclude what was the genetic make up of the people in the region and as the other user already said, culture and language doesn't always follow genetics. However, in this case I am certain that it does because the early medieval Bulgarian culture was highly affected by the Eastern Roman culture and the Bulgarian and Macedonian languages although in their lexicon are overwhelming Slavic languages, in their grammar they're closer to Eastern Romance and Albanian languages than they are to the other Slavic languages. Therefore, there shouldn't be surprise why some Macedonians and Bulgarians might be genetically different than other South Slavic ethnicities.

That west plotting as you say is more like south-west since most samples from Ohrid-Bitola region are plotting towards the direction of South Albania. It's mainly a reflection of medieval assimilations and mixing between Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek and Vlach populations. Nothing to do with any Celts whom we don't know if they even survived the Roman invasion let alone the large scale invasions of the early medieval times.

Hi , how are you today ? One question for you ,are you historian ?

[Pubiczar]

Hi , how are you today ? One question for you ,are you historian ?

I am fine, thanks.
I am not a professional historian.
Is there any in accuracy of what I said in my post?

[Dick]

Thats another topic, so do you know what is DA195 sample?In many calculators its marked like Thracian or its speculation?

DA195 was uploaded to Mytrueancestry. the distances are not good though



https://i.imgur.com/2S4iPoB.jpg

[JohnnyP]

I am fine, thanks.
I am not a professional historian.
Is there any in accuracy of what I said in my post?

So if you are not please not making conclusions on your own and cut that Bugarofilija...
In official Bulgarian "History" says when They(Bulgars) came on balkan and Khan *****uh created First Bulgarian Empire ,occupied indigenous people, but took their language...
So please cut that bugarofil-like thing, im reading few your comments in past where you make conclusions on your own "knowledge" but are far from REAL PICTURE...
Cheers

[Crn Volk]

So if you are not please not making conclusions on your own and cut that Bugarofilija...
In official Bulgarian "History" says when They(Bulgars) came on balkan and Khan *****uh created First Bulgarian Empire ,occupied indigenous people, but took their language...
So please cut that bugarofil-like thing, im reading few your comments in past where you make conclusions on your own "knowledge" but are far from REAL PICTURE...
Cheers

Ostajtej tije raboti za drugo mesto. Ne ni treba kavga megju sebe. Ajde pozdrav od mene.

[Dick]

So if you are not please not making conclusions on your own and cut that Bugarofilija...
In official Bulgarian "History" says when They(Bulgars) came on balkan and Khan *****uh created First Bulgarian Empire ,occupied indigenous people, but took their language...
So please cut that bugarofil-like thing, im reading few your comments in past where you make conclusions on your own "knowledge" but are far from REAL PICTURE...
Cheers

+1

[JohnnyP]

Ostajtej tije raboti za drugo mesto. Ne ni treba kavga megju sebe. Ajde pozdrav od mene.

Bratski , Jas posledni 10 godini posvetiv na Istorija od koi 4 studiram ,a tuka citam gluposti...Ne se raspravam voopsto...POzdrav

[JohnnyP]

DA195 was uploaded to Mytrueancestry. the distances are not good though



https://i.imgur.com/2S4iPoB.jpg

Bratski , on mine account saying something like this
94463

And also on Eurogenes K13 with modern updated says;

Target: DA195_Hungary_Scythian
Distance: 0.8591% / 0.85907066
43.2 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
24.2 Southeast_English
14.6 Pomak_Plovdiv
6.4 Spanish_Valencia
5.4 Lithuanian
2.4 Sardinian
1.6 South_Polish
1.0 Ethiopian_Gumuz
0.4 French_Basque
0.4 Greek_Northern-Thrace
0.2 Karitiana
0.2 Kol

In fact Torbeshi are Macedonians who accepted Islam...And are purest between us.
Also on Eurogenes K13 Ancient
Target: DA195_Hungary_Scythian
Distance: 1.1088% / 1.10883919 | ADC: 0.25x
53.0 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
15.2 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian
14.6 SZ5.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
9.0 BR1_Hungary_Mako_Culture_2100_BC_2100_BC
4.8 SZ20_szolad_hungary_longobard
1.6 I7426_iberia
1.2 Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a
0.6 Ma’lta_South_Central0Siberia_22.000_BC

[Dick]

Bratski , on mine account saying something like this
94463

And also on Eurogenes K13 with modern updated says;

Target: DA195_Hungary_Scythian
Distance: 0.8591% / 0.85907066
43.2 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
24.2 Southeast_English
14.6 Pomak_Plovdiv
6.4 Spanish_Valencia
5.4 Lithuanian
2.4 Sardinian
1.6 South_Polish
1.0 Ethiopian_Gumuz
0.4 French_Basque
0.4 Greek_Northern-Thrace
0.2 Karitiana
0.2 Kol

In fact Torbeshi are Macedonians who accepted Islam...And are purest between us.
Also on Eurogenes K13 Ancient
Target: DA195_Hungary_Scythian
Distance: 1.1088% / 1.10883919 | ADC: 0.25x
53.0 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
15.2 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian
14.6 SZ5.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
9.0 BR1_Hungary_Mako_Culture_2100_BC_2100_BC
4.8 SZ20_szolad_hungary_longobard
1.6 I7426_iberia
1.2 Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a
0.6 Ma’lta_South_Central0Siberia_22.000_BC

This is DA195 kit number F999944



Kit F999944

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.93
2 North_Atlantic 33.71
3 West_Med 20.35

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Polish 11.16
2 Ukrainian 11.97
3 South_Polish 12.31
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.91
5 Estonian_Polish 13.15
6 Russian_Smolensk 13.4
7 Estonian 13.78
8 Belorussian 13.81
9 Southwest_Finnish 14.17
10 Lithuanian 15.03
11 Southwest_Russian 15.39
12 East_German 15.69
13 Croatian 15.84
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.11
15 Finnish 16.18
16 Kargopol_Russian 16.67
17 East_Finnish 17.51
18 North_Swedish 17.93
19 Hungarian 18.12
20 Austrian 18.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.7% Lithuanian + 24.3% French_Basque @ 7.39
2 70.9% Lithuanian + 29.1% Southwest_French @ 8.08
3 82.7% Estonian + 17.3% Sardinian @ 8.47
4 72.6% Lithuanian + 27.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 8.73
5 80.6% Estonian_Polish + 19.4% French_Basque @ 8.86
6 81.1% Lithuanian + 18.9% Sardinian @ 8.93
7 74.9% Lithuanian + 25.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 8.97
8 79.8% Estonian + 20.2% French_Basque @ 9.27
9 75% Estonian + 25% Southwest_French @ 9.27
10 74.5% Lithuanian + 25.5% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 9.34
11 80% Belorussian + 20% French_Basque @ 9.42
12 80.9% Russian_Smolensk + 19.1% French_Basque @ 9.44
13 87.3% Polish + 12.7% French_Basque @ 9.48
14 74.4% Lithuanian + 25.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 9.54
15 75.5% Lithuanian + 24.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 9.62
16 73% Lithuanian + 27% Spanish_Galicia @ 9.65
17 73.9% Lithuanian + 26.1% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 9.66
18 73.4% Lithuanian + 26.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 9.67
19 77.4% Estonian_Polish + 22.6% Southwest_French @ 9.69
20 76.7% Estonian + 23.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 9.73

[Pubiczar]

So if you are not please not making conclusions on your own and cut that Bugarofilija...
In official Bulgarian "History" says when They(Bulgars) came on balkan and Khan *****uh created First Bulgarian Empire ,occupied indigenous people, but took their language...
So please cut that bugarofil-like thing, im reading few your comments in past where you make conclusions on your own "knowledge" but are far from REAL PICTURE...
Cheers

As you see I am not a nationalist or an 'ancient Macedonian'. I am a Macedonian as my grandparents were. Would I be bigger Macedonian if I say that there wasn't a Bulgarian Empire but a Macedonian one or that Samuel wasn't a Bulgarian Emperor but a Macedonian one? Probably in the eyes of many Macedonians I would be but that would be a deception and lying. You know, long gone is the time when you could literally brainwash whole nation just by killing thousands of scholars and other people from the literate circle as the communists did and making up stories and picking certain parts of the actual history in order to present them in different light than they actually were. Today we have open borders, people travel, learn in different countries, have internet and can read a different literature.
You say 'you make conclusions on your own "knowledge" but are far from REAL PICTURE...', yet you don't make the effort to prove me wrong.

It's not really up to what we wright here, there are already tons of historical facts that back me up. I will just mention the Bitola inscription of Ioan Vladislav, nephew of Samuel. Because I have no time to write all night long. And the inscription says clearly about Bulgarians and Bulgaria. Not a single word about Macedonia. In fact, many historical evidences witness about a Macedonian ethnicity start forming as early as the 19th century. Is there a problem with that? Certainly not! Is there a problem with making up a false history? Of course there is.

You say 'In official Bulgarian "History" says when They(Bulgars) came on balkan and Khan *****uh created First Bulgarian Empire ,occupied indigenous people, but took their language...'. Well everybody came from somewhere, even the ancient Macedonians who might have not been originally Greek speaking people, came, enslaved, and embraced the language of the more numerous people. The Germanic speaking Frank's came, enslaved and embraced the language of the more numerous people. It's all about continuinty and there is no continuing ancient Macedonian, or South Slavic identity but there is Bulgarian one even as late as the 20th century with the 19th century being full with people who self diclared as Bulgarians such as Marko Cepenkov, Grigor Prlicev and brothers Miladinovi among the others.

Should we deny that?

[PAGANE]

A documented written monument of South Slavic culture until the mid-9th century?

[catgeorge]

Balkan problems.

Turks has mindfucked the whole region.

I still think building a 60 ft cement wall on our Northern borders is still a good thing and naturally select those with half a brain that missed out migrating from the swamps.

:popcorn:

[War Chef]

Balkan problems.

Turks has mindfucked the whole region.

I still think building a 60 ft cement wall on our Northern borders is still a good thing and naturally select those with half a brain that missed out migrating from the swamps.

:popcorn:

You mean the pripyat marshes

[catgeorge]

You mean the pripyat marshes

Is that what they're called.. well, yeah if thats what they are.

[War Chef]

So much East Med+West Asian in the Balkans, I wonder if it's from the syro-anatolian Byzantines

[Pubiczar]

So much East Med+West Asian in the Balkans, I wonder if it's from the syro-anatolian Byzantines

I am a Mycenaean, no idea for the others...

https://i.postimg.cc/1zvcX6mq/Screenshot-20200106-012246-Samsung-Internet.jpg (https://postimg.cc/DWbbYSbv)

[catgeorge]

So much East Med+West Asian in the Balkans, I wonder if it's from the syro-anatolian Byzantines

There's not really "so much" and whatever it has currently has it's due to being equidistant like the rest of the world. Its a few percentage points from Germany for example but no where near the 60% that Georgia and Armenia have.

Germany has 5-10% - Balkans have 15-20% so it's not much considering where it located geographically

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/West-Asian-admixture.gif

[War Chef]

I am a Mycenaean, no idea for the others...

https://i.postimg.cc/1zvcX6mq/Screenshot-20200106-012246-Samsung-Internet.jpg (https://postimg.cc/DWbbYSbv)

Very strong results

[pulstar]

There was never any South Slavic culture. There was a Bulgarian culture, a Cyrillic alphabet made by Bulgarian scholars from Preslav and Ohrid literary schools on the orders of the Bulgarian Tsar or Khan, made in the Bulgarian state for the use of the Bulgarians. That's the real history, everything else is just a pitiful try to cut certain parts of the cultural heritage and people off of the Bulgarism with the idea of stealing it in the feature. It's idea promoted mainly by some neighbours of Bulgaria including my own country. Although the Macedonians are now different ethnicity, that doesn't give us right to make up false history etc.

On more about your question, we don't have samples from the early medieval history of the Macedonian region in order to conclude what was the genetic make up of the people in the region and as the other user already said, culture and language doesn't always follow genetics. However, in this case I am certain that it does because the early medieval Bulgarian culture was highly affected by the Eastern Roman culture and the Bulgarian and Macedonian languages although in their lexicon are overwhelming Slavic languages, in their grammar they're closer to Eastern Romance and Albanian languages than they are to the other Slavic languages. Therefore, there shouldn't be surprise why some Macedonians and Bulgarians might be genetically different than other South Slavic ethnicities.

That west plotting as you say is more like south-west since most samples from Ohrid-Bitola region are plotting towards the direction of South Albania. It's mainly a reflection of medieval assimilations and mixing between Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek and Vlach populations. Nothing to do with any Celts whom we don't know if they even survived the Roman invasion let alone the large scale invasions of the early medieval times.

Bulgaria is South Slavic. The language and culture wouldn't come out of nowhere and it surely has nothing to do with Albanians or Eastern Romans. Also there are no samples from Medieval Albania and you still jumped to conclusion and tried to connect it. Again, I was talking about populations that don't have any known record to have even been in Balkans.

[ioan assen]

Bulgaria is South Slavic. The language and culture wouldn't come out of nowhere and it surely has nothing to do with Albanians or Eastern Romans. Also there are no samples from Medieval Albania and you still jumped to conclusion and tried to connect it. Again, I was talking about populations that don't have any known record to have even been in Balkans.
Bulgarian medieval culture has a lot to do with Byzantine culture. The Cyrillic alphabet (devised in Pliska) was based on the Greek one which was based on the Phoenician one. The first Bulgarian books were translated Byzantine ones. The architecture, even the titles (especially in the second Bulgarian empire) show huge Byzantine influence. There are lots of Greek words in Bulgarian too. Bulgarians and Greeks (especially the northern ones, which don't have as much catholic influence as the islands) are extremely close culturally to this day.

[Crn Volk]

Bulgarian medieval culture has a lot to do with Byzantine culture. The Cyrillic alphabet (devised in Pliska) was based on the Greek one which was based on the Phoenician one. The first Bulgarian books were translated Byzantine ones. The architecture, even the titles (especially in the second Bulgarian empire) show huge Byzantine influence. There are lots of Greek words in Bulgarian too. Bulgarians and Greeks (especially the northern ones, which don't have as much catholic influence as the islands) are extremely close culturally to this day.

Cyrillic was based on Glagolitic which was created on the basis of the Slavs living in the Salonika region of the Byzantine Empire. And yes, medieval Byzantine, Bulgarian and Serbian cultures were similar, just as they are today.

[Crn Volk]

A documented written monument of South Slavic culture until the mid-9th century?

We can speak of separate Sclavenoi and proto-Bulgar cultures before both were Christenized. They eventually merged into one by about the 9th/10th centuries.

[ioan assen]

Cyrillic was based on Glagolitic which was created on the basis of the Slavs living in the Salonika region of the Byzantine Empire. And yes, medieval Byzantine, Bulgarian and Serbian cultures were similar, just as they are today.
Cyrillic follows the Greek alphabet more closely though and was invented in Northeastern Bulgaria by a Bulgarian (probably Clement of Ohrid). Glagolic was devised by Byzantine Cyril and Methodius, who probably had a Bulgarian mother (unsure).

[ioan assen]

We can speak of separate Sclavenoi and proto-Bulgar cultures before both were Christenized. They eventually merged into one by about the 9th/10th centuries.
The Sclavenoi wasn't written one though. Protobulgar was and it was written in Greek mainly.

[vbnetkhio]

This is DA195 kit number F999944



Kit F999944

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.93
2 North_Atlantic 33.71
3 West_Med 20.35

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Polish 11.16
2 Ukrainian 11.97
3 South_Polish 12.31
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.91
5 Estonian_Polish 13.15
6 Russian_Smolensk 13.4
7 Estonian 13.78
8 Belorussian 13.81
9 Southwest_Finnish 14.17
10 Lithuanian 15.03
11 Southwest_Russian 15.39
12 East_German 15.69
13 Croatian 15.84
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.11
15 Finnish 16.18
16 Kargopol_Russian 16.67
17 East_Finnish 17.51
18 North_Swedish 17.93
19 Hungarian 18.12
20 Austrian 18.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.7% Lithuanian + 24.3% French_Basque @ 7.39
2 70.9% Lithuanian + 29.1% Southwest_French @ 8.08
3 82.7% Estonian + 17.3% Sardinian @ 8.47
4 72.6% Lithuanian + 27.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 8.73
5 80.6% Estonian_Polish + 19.4% French_Basque @ 8.86
6 81.1% Lithuanian + 18.9% Sardinian @ 8.93
7 74.9% Lithuanian + 25.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 8.97
8 79.8% Estonian + 20.2% French_Basque @ 9.27
9 75% Estonian + 25% Southwest_French @ 9.27
10 74.5% Lithuanian + 25.5% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 9.34
11 80% Belorussian + 20% French_Basque @ 9.42
12 80.9% Russian_Smolensk + 19.1% French_Basque @ 9.44
13 87.3% Polish + 12.7% French_Basque @ 9.48
14 74.4% Lithuanian + 25.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 9.54
15 75.5% Lithuanian + 24.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 9.62
16 73% Lithuanian + 27% Spanish_Galicia @ 9.65
17 73.9% Lithuanian + 26.1% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 9.66
18 73.4% Lithuanian + 26.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 9.67
19 77.4% Estonian_Polish + 22.6% Southwest_French @ 9.69
20 76.7% Estonian + 23.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 9.73

that's rise479, not da195

[WeirdLookingFellow]

that's rise479, not da195

Yea, I was thinking that I was just mistaken and that DA195 was a more slavic Scythian sample instead of the one I though.

There's a reason the K13 ancient makes me very close to this sample, we do have very similar results.

Here is the actual DA195 sample:

DA195_Hungary_Scythian,

North Atlantic 30.13,
Baltic 23.19,
West Med 19.07,
West Asian 7.34,
East Med 16.6,
Red Sea 0.22,
South Asian 0.78,
East Asian 0.13,
Siberian 0,
Amerindian 1.01,
Oceanian 0.23,
NorthEast African 1.08,
Subsaharan 0.21

[vbnetkhio]

Yea, I was thinking that I was just mistaken and that DA195 was a more slavic Scythian sample instead of the one I though.

There's a reason the K13 ancient makes me very close to this sample, we do have very similar results.

Here is the actual DA195 sample:

DA195_Hungary_Scythian,

North Atlantic 30.13,
Baltic 23.19,
West Med 19.07,
West Asian 7.34,
East Med 16.6,
Red Sea 0.22,
South Asian 0.78,
East Asian 0.13,
Siberian 0,
Amerindian 1.01,
Oceanian 0.23,
NorthEast African 1.08,
Subsaharan 0.21

very modern results (mixed), unlike rise479

[Pubiczar]

Bulgaria is South Slavic. The language and culture wouldn't come out of nowhere and it surely has nothing to do with Albanians or Eastern Romans. Also there are no samples from Medieval Albania and you still jumped to conclusion and tried to connect it. Again, I was talking about populations that don't have any known record to have even been in Balkans.

You speak like a Communist. Yes, Bulgaria is South Slavic but not everything South Slavic is a Bulgarian...
Or should we start speaking of Vuk Karadzik as a South Slav and his Karadzica as South Slavic instead of Serb?

The Bulgarian language and culture is unique, if it wasn't it wouldn't be recognizable from the other South Slavic cultures and languages.

I am saying all this because I see this tendency everything Bulgarian to be assigned as South Slavic but other South Slavic works and people do not and are assigned to their ethnic affiliation.

As for the linguistic point of view, the Bulgarian language is very similar to the Albanian and the Eastern Latin languages in its grammar. There are quite a lot of words shared between those three languages as well, think of katerica, катерица; karpa, карпа, etc. and even shared with the Greek, haresa, хареса, in some Macedonian dialects - ареса.
And this is only from the standardized Bulgarian language. In many Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects there are even more words and influences.

Therefore, if it has nothing to do with the Albanians and the Eastern Romans then with who it does?

Where those influences come from if they are missing in the other Slavic and even South Slavic languages?

[pelikarski]

Where those influences come from if they are missing in the other Slavic and even South Slavic languages?

What you describe is the modern Bulgarian language and languages constantly evolve. Today Bulgarian is a typical analytic language but in the past, there were cases, which dropped out over time. Cases are archaic and unnecessary complicate the grammary.
Bulgarian of course, was influenced by other Balkan languages, hence the differences, but this influence concerns its development, not origin

[Kaspias]

I removed all the Macedonian, Nevrokopi and Drama. Looks more plausible for me - Plovdiv region + North East BG.

Zzzzz, Distance: 2.2192% / 2.21918860 | ADC: 0.5x
62.2 Bulgarian
17.2 Turk_Razgrad
14.6 Pomak_Plovdiv
5.6 Bulgarian_Ruse
0.4 Greek_Northern-Thrace

Target: Zzzzz
Distance: 1.6517% / 1.65173940 | ADC: 0.25x
28.2 Pomak_Plovdiv
22.4 Bulgarian
16.0 Turk_Razgrad
12.2 Bulgarian_Ruse
11.6 Greek_Northern-Thrace
9.2 Bulgarian_Burgas
0.2 Dai
0.2 Karitiana

Kaspias, how many people did you use for Pomak Plovdiv, you know I live there, I know a lot of Pomaks at work, but they all are from Rodope mountains - 2 from Smolyan, 1 from Zlatograd, 1 from Krumovgrad and others. By the way 2 of them have famous relatives. In my grandparents part of the city there is a Pomak neighborhood, which was established around 1950 -1960.

9 samples, 4 of them from Kochan, Blagoevgrad, 5 of them from different villages of Smolyan.

[Kaspias]

94462

All Macedonian_North,Macedonian_Central,Macedonian_Gre ece,Macedonian_Southwest samples are dominant with Thraco-Cimmerian , but Macedonian_East and Macedonian_Northwest are dominant DA195 sample on Eurogenes K13 Ancient.
Can you tell me what is DA195 sample?Its paleo-balkan or ?

Good prediction. It supposed to be close to the Dacians.

I always used Scythian_Moldova samples as Thracian proxy. So you can guess about Hungary.

[Kaspias]

This is DA195 kit number F999944



Kit F999944

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.93
2 North_Atlantic 33.71
3 West_Med 20.35

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Polish 11.16
2 Ukrainian 11.97
3 South_Polish 12.31
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.91
5 Estonian_Polish 13.15
6 Russian_Smolensk 13.4
7 Estonian 13.78
8 Belorussian 13.81
9 Southwest_Finnish 14.17
10 Lithuanian 15.03
11 Southwest_Russian 15.39
12 East_German 15.69
13 Croatian 15.84
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.11
15 Finnish 16.18
16 Kargopol_Russian 16.67
17 East_Finnish 17.51
18 North_Swedish 17.93
19 Hungarian 18.12
20 Austrian 18.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.7% Lithuanian + 24.3% French_Basque @ 7.39
2 70.9% Lithuanian + 29.1% Southwest_French @ 8.08
3 82.7% Estonian + 17.3% Sardinian @ 8.47
4 72.6% Lithuanian + 27.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 8.73
5 80.6% Estonian_Polish + 19.4% French_Basque @ 8.86
6 81.1% Lithuanian + 18.9% Sardinian @ 8.93
7 74.9% Lithuanian + 25.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 8.97
8 79.8% Estonian + 20.2% French_Basque @ 9.27
9 75% Estonian + 25% Southwest_French @ 9.27
10 74.5% Lithuanian + 25.5% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 9.34
11 80% Belorussian + 20% French_Basque @ 9.42
12 80.9% Russian_Smolensk + 19.1% French_Basque @ 9.44
13 87.3% Polish + 12.7% French_Basque @ 9.48
14 74.4% Lithuanian + 25.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 9.54
15 75.5% Lithuanian + 24.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 9.62
16 73% Lithuanian + 27% Spanish_Galicia @ 9.65
17 73.9% Lithuanian + 26.1% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 9.66
18 73.4% Lithuanian + 26.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 9.67
19 77.4% Estonian_Polish + 22.6% Southwest_French @ 9.69
20 76.7% Estonian + 23.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 9.73

Are we sure that Vatya and Scythian_Hungary are the same samples?

Edit: just saw vbnetkhio mentioned it

[Kaspias]

I am from Biga. My mom's side is immigrant from Bulgaria. Grandpa from Shumen and Targovishte, grandma from Plovdiv and possibly Pomak.

I never heard of this Bulgarians that came around Biga and returned back and it mixed my mind.

Here is my kit number if you want to check further.

Hi,

I know most of Pomaks who came with Russo-Turkish war migrated to Biga-Gönen line. But i really don't think it is about the Bulgarians who live in the region before Pomaks. The government most probably directed them there since the Bulgarian population left the villages, Pomaks settled after.

[ioan assen]

What you describe is the modern Bulgarian language and languages constantly evolve. Today Bulgarian is a typical analytic language but in the past, there were cases, which dropped out over time. Cases are archaic and unnecessary complicate the grammary.
Bulgarian of course, was influenced by other Balkan languages, hence the differences, but this influence concerns its development, not origin
There is hypothesis though that the "Balkan grammar" (too many features shared with Romanian, Albanian and Greek that even German linguists put those languages and Bulgarian into the so called "Balkan linguist union") is inherited from the Thracians. I tend to believe this hypothesis more, especially having in mind how similar Romanians and Bulgarians are.

[Zzzzz]

9 samples, 4 of them from Kochan, Blagoevgrad, 5 of them from different villages of Smolyan.
Thank you once again for your time and efforts to share data here. I was just curious cause you used another sample called North Rodopes, so I guessed that it was more geographically specific.

[Kaspias]

Thank you once again for your time and efforts to share data here. I was just curious cause you used another sample called North Rodopes, so I guessed that it was more geographically specific.

You are welcome :) I tried to make it regionally specific but then saw that all Bulgarian Pomaks have similar results unlike Greece ones. So i put all together and named it as Plovdiv. I'm going to improve it with time though.

[bained]

Thank you once again for your time and efforts to share data here. I was just curious cause you used another sample called North Rodopes, so I guessed that it was more geographically specific.
Hes a friend of mine. He is from the villages above Perushtica and I dont want to go into more detail.

[JohnnyP]

As you see I am not a nationalist or an 'ancient Macedonian'. I am a Macedonian as my grandparents were. Would I be bigger Macedonian if I say that there wasn't a Bulgarian Empire but a Macedonian one or that Samuel wasn't a Bulgarian Emperor but a Macedonian one? Probably in the eyes of many Macedonians I would be but that would be a deception and lying. You know, long gone is the time when you could literally brainwash whole nation just by killing thousands of scholars and other people from the literate circle as the communists did and making up stories and picking certain parts of the actual history in order to present them in different light than they actually were. Today we have open borders, people travel, learn in different countries, have internet and can read a different literature.
You say 'you make conclusions on your own "knowledge" but are far from REAL PICTURE...', yet you don't make the effort to prove me wrong.

It's not really up to what we wright here, there are already tons of historical facts that back me up. I will just mention the Bitola inscription of Ioan Vladislav, nephew of Samuel. Because I have no time to write all night long. And the inscription says clearly about Bulgarians and Bulgaria. Not a single word about Macedonia. In fact, many historical evidences witness about a Macedonian ethnicity start forming as early as the 19th century. Is there a problem with that? Certainly not! Is there a problem with making up a false history? Of course there is.

You say 'In official Bulgarian "History" says when They(Bulgars) came on balkan and Khan *****uh created First Bulgarian Empire ,occupied indigenous people, but took their language...'. Well everybody came from somewhere, even the ancient Macedonians who might have not been originally Greek speaking people, came, enslaved, and embraced the language of the more numerous people. The Germanic speaking Frank's came, enslaved and embraced the language of the more numerous people. It's all about continuinty and there is no continuing ancient Macedonian, or South Slavic identity but there is Bulgarian one even as late as the 20th century with the 19th century being full with people who self diclared as Bulgarians such as Marko Cepenkov, Grigor Prlicev and brothers Miladinovi among the others.

Should we deny that?

Do you even listen yourself ?
People like you are reason i dont visiting this type of forums more often, idk why admins not reacting...Oh yeah you are Veteran Member and can speaks everything you want...
F*cking Historians from Ali Express...

[JohnnyP]

I am a Mycenaean, no idea for the others...

https://i.postimg.cc/1zvcX6mq/Screenshot-20200106-012246-Samsung-Internet.jpg (https://postimg.cc/DWbbYSbv)

Of course you are Mycenaean i bet you are...
Facial reconstruction of Mycenaean
94471


I bet they have connection with Aryan race...

[War Chef]

Very impressive.
Interesting how similar Greeks are to Balkan Slavs.

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Военен вожд; 6445160] Много впечатляващ.
Интересно доколко гърците са подобни на балканските славяни. [/ QUOTE]
Because they too, the modern Greeks have a very Slavic component, especially the northern ones. As much as they deny this fact and they don't like it

[Pubiczar]

Do you even listen yourself ?
People like you are reason i dont visiting this type of forums more often, idk why admins not reacting...Oh yeah you are Veteran Member and can speaks everything you want...
F*cking Historians from Ali Express...

Chill out dude, you are taking this way too seriously. Neither me nor you gonna change the past, the present nor the future of the Macedonian people.

You were asking me for calcutor stuff not long ago or you already forgot about it. Well I am also into historical stuff and I don't care whether you or anybody else like or don't like the real facts.

Professional historian?

So why don't you tell us something about the historical facts about the Macedonians and their history?

Why is it so disturbing and painful for some of you if part of our history is connected with the Bulgarians?

What do you think about Krali Marko? Is it also a disturbing fact for you if I say that he was a Serb feudal ruler of Prilep and the surrounding?

What history do you learn in the university?

[War Chef]

[QUOTE = Военен вожд; 6445160] Много впечатляващ.
Интересно доколко гърците са подобни на балканските славяни. [/ QUOTE]
Because they too, the modern Greeks have a very Slavic component, especially the northern ones. As much as they deny this fact and they don't like it

I wonder if it's just Slavic or shared Mycenaean ancestry. The Greeks were speaking non-European "Pelasgian" before being Hellenized from some group in the north....

[Lioncourt]

Very impressive.
Interesting how similar Greeks are to Balkan Slavs.

Greece and Balkan Slavic countries both have wide genetic spectrum. While Northern Greeks aren't far from Bulgarians and people from North Macedonia, Greeks from islands and Asia Minor are distant.

[Kaspias]

I wonder if it's just Slavic or shared Mycenaean ancestry. The Greeks were speaking non-European "Pelasgian" before being Hellenized from some group in the north....

Balkan Slavs didn't mix with Greeks directly but have native Balkan admix(Thracian, Illyrian.) Thracians were mixed with Greeks and Levants who came with expansion to some degree which bring Mycenaean ancestry to today's South Slavs.

On the other hand, Northern Greece had Slavic influence as much as Bulgaria or North Macedonia while Slavic raiding were occuring. Except that, look at the native population of Macedonia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g/780px-Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g


This case is the same in Western Thrace, too. But Eastern Thrace Greeks show more actual Greek ancestry compared to Northern Greek average.


So a combination of sharing Mycenaen and Slavic components made these populations closer.

[War Chef]

Balkan Slavs didn't mix with Greeks directly but have native Balkan admix(Thracian, Illyrian.) Thracians were mixed with Greeks and Levants who came with expansion to some degree which bring Mycenaean ancestry to today's South Slavs.

On the other hand, Northern Greece had Slavic influence as much as Bulgaria or North Macedonia while Slavic raiding were occuring. Except that, look at the native population of Macedonia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g/780px-Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g


This case is the same in Western Thrace, too. But Eastern Thrace Greeks show more actual Greek ancestry compared to Northern Greek average.


So a combination of sharing Mycenaen and Slavic components made these populations closer.

They (Greeks and Bulgarians) also acquired a pretty sizeable chunk of west-Asian genes from syro-anatolian Byzantines a.k.a. east Romans. I'm convinced that without this, they would be closer to west Balkaners a.k.a Yugoslavs.

[Bosniensis]

***** is Mycenaean

You're old bro

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/016/729/large.jpg

[Kaspias]

They (Greeks and Bulgarians) also acquired a pretty sizeable chunk of west-Asian genes from syro-anatolian Byzantines a.k.a. east Romans. I'm convinced that without this, they would be closer to west Balkaners a.k.a Yugoslavs.

Well, i agree about Greeks but i don't agree with Bulgarians. I don't think Bulgarians and Greek speakers mixed in such a degree to get West Asian from Anatolian Greeks.

Proto-Bulgars supposed to carry huge West Asian/CHG since they settled in North Caucasia for years. Just a reminder

[catgeorge]

Balkan Slavs didn't mix with Greeks directly but have native Balkan admix(Thracian, Illyrian.) Thracians were mixed with Greeks and Levants who came with expansion to some degree which bring Mycenaean ancestry to today's South Slavs.

On the other hand, Northern Greece had Slavic influence as much as Bulgaria or North Macedonia while Slavic raiding were occuring. Except that, look at the native population of Macedonia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g/780px-Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g


This case is the same in Western Thrace, too. But Eastern Thrace Greeks show more actual Greek ancestry compared to Northern Greek average.


So a combination of sharing Mycenaen and Slavic components made these populations closer.

San Stefano propaganda maps only if I could borrow your brain :clap:

Do you have a map from 1821 and 1850?

[Leto]

Proto-Bulgars supposed to carry huge West Asian/CHG since they settled in North Caucasia for years. Just a reminder
Volga Tatar K13 average is 11.66, Chuvash - 8.74. But of course we don't know how much Old Bulgar blood these modern ethnic groups have.

[bained]

San Stefano propaganda maps only if I could borrow your brain :clap:

Do you have a map from 1821 and 1850?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia Pick your poison.

[catgeorge]

Turks and Bulgars backslapping each other like the good days.

:whoo:

Can you name the Slavs in North Greece that partook in the revolution against Turks in 1821?

[War Chef]

Well, i agree about Greeks but i don't agree with Bulgarians. I don't think Bulgarians and Greek speakers mixed in such a degree to get West Asian from Anatolian Greeks.

Proto-Bulgars supposed to carry huge West Asian/CHG since they settled in North Caucasia for years. Just a reminder

Most of modern Bulgaria was under Byzantine east-Roman administrative rule. Those were big cities (adrianople, marcianoplis etc.)....... Byzantine empire had lots of Syriacs and Armenians involved, not just Anatolian Greeks.

[Lioncourt]

San Stefano propaganda maps only if I could borrow your brain :clap:

Do you have a map from 1821 and 1850?

Greeks are people of the sea, there is no business for you in cold mountains. Inland Macedonia have been majority Slavic.


Most of modern Bulgaria was under Byzantine east-Roman administrative rule. Those were big cities (adrianople, marcianoplis etc.)....... Byzantine empire had lots of Syriacs and Armenians involved, not just Anatolian Greeks.

Still not enough to impact the population significantly, administrative rule = administrative relations. Like Brits in India and Pakistan.

[Kaspias]

San Stefano propaganda maps only if I could borrow your brain :clap:

Do you have a map from 1821 and 1850?

This map is not propaganda whatsoever. I have enough knowledge to determine which map is propaganda or which one is not.





I can post here real propaganda maps if you want.

[catgeorge]

Greeks are people of the sea, there is no business for you in cold mountains. Inland Macedonia have been majority Slavic.

Sure, so you can name the Slavs that partook in the Revolution against Turks in 1821 in Macedonia...based on your own admission it should'nt be that hard.

[catgeorge]

This map is not propaganda whatsoever. I have enough knowledge to determine which map is propaganda or which one is not.





I can post here real propaganda maps if you want.

The only knowledge you have is when you forget to clean yourself after taking a dump.

[bained]

Turks and Bulgars backslapping each other like the good days.

:whoo:

Can you name the Slavs in North Greece that partook in the revolution against Turks in 1821?

Angelis Gatsos (Greek: Αγγελής Γάτσος; Bulgarian: Ангел Гацов)[1][2][3] (1771–1839) was a Slavophone Greek military commander during the Greek War of Independence. He was born in the village of Sarakinovo, today known as Sarakinoi (Almopia municipality, Pella regional unit).
Here.

[Lioncourt]

Sure, so you can name the Slavs that partook in the Revolution against Turks in 1821...based on your own admission it should'nt be that hard.

There is no reason for a Slav in Greece not to fight against the Ottomans.

[War Chef]

Volga Tatar K13 average is 11.66, Chuvash - 8.74. But of course we don't know how much Old Bulgar blood these modern ethnic groups have.

Old Bulgarians were just Huns who were expelled from Hungary and tossed back into the steppes. I also don't think they had time or ability to mix with north Caucasians, as north Caucasian Vainakhs were very hostile to everyone.

[catgeorge]

There is no reason for a Slav in Greece not to fight against the Ottomans.

Agree - but there is no record of it.

[catgeorge]

Angelis Gatsos (Greek: Αγγελής Γάτσος; Bulgarian: Ангел Гацов)[1][2][3] (1771–1839) was a Slavophone Greek military commander during the Greek War of Independence. He was born in the village of Sarakinovo, today known as Sarakinoi (Almopia municipality, Pella regional unit).
Here.

Gatsos wasn't a Slav. Try again.

[War Chef]

Still not enough to impact the population significantly, administrative rule = administrative relations. Like Brits in India and Pakistan.

Then explain why Thracians were Sardinian-like genetically, and modern Bulgarians pull east with higher west Asian/Caucasus component? The only thing that was in between Thracians and modern Bulgarians was the Byzantine empire and Bulgar empire.

[Kaspias]

Volga Tatar K13 average is 11.66, Chuvash - 8.74. But of course we don't know how much Old Bulgar blood these modern ethnic groups have.

I sent a pm

[bained]

Gatsos wasn't a Slav. Try again.

Agree, he wasn't a slav. He was Bulgarian.

Plus your question is flawed, you can also ask how many Greeks fought for the Bulgarian Independence?

[Pubiczar]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g/780px-Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g


This is one of the best maps I have seen for the ethnic structure of the population in Macedonia during 19-th century unlike others which present the region as overwhelmingly Bulgarian but just looking at some people's faces you know that's not true.
Blaze Koneski is a real proof for that. He looked like a Serb, Dacic type. It's a myth that Serbs like to spread about them being long face Dinarics. Actually good portion of them are small flashy face with Baltid or Neo-Danubian tendencies, Ivica Dacic type.
Furthermore, the region of Serb presence also follow some interesting characteristics in the local dialects which are largely because of Serbian influences me thinks, along with some very specific customs like Slava.
Unlike this region, the South-East(Strumica-Gevgeli), along with the Central Aegean part of Macedonia shows some of the greatest similarities with the Bulgarian standard language, having preserved (голем ер - ъ, Ъ), lot more similar vocabulary, along with many similar customs such as 'Kolede', 'Surva', 'Imenden' and on and on.
I wouldn't agree just for Debar-Gostivar-Tetovo region which is shown as a pure Serb region but should be mixed Bulgarian-Serb.

[pulstar]

You speak like a Communist. Yes, Bulgaria is South Slavic but not everything South Slavic is a Bulgarian...
Or should we start speaking of Vuk Karadzik as a South Slav and his Karadzica as South Slavic instead of Serb?

The Bulgarian language and culture is unique, if it wasn't it wouldn't be recognizable from the other South Slavic cultures and languages.

I am saying all this because I see this tendency everything Bulgarian to be assigned as South Slavic but other South Slavic works and people do not and are assigned to their ethnic affiliation.

As for the linguistic point of view, the Bulgarian language is very similar to the Albanian and the Eastern Latin languages in its grammar. There are quite a lot of words shared between those three languages as well, think of katerica, катерица; karpa, карпа, etc. and even shared with the Greek, haresa, хареса, in some Macedonian dialects - ареса.
And this is only from the standardized Bulgarian language. In many Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects there are even more words and influences.

Therefore, if it has nothing to do with the Albanians and the Eastern Romans then with who it does?

Where those influences come from if they are missing in the other Slavic and even South Slavic languages?

I didn't started the question to argue whether or not Macedonians are related to Bulgarians or Greeks, nor did I wanted to belittle early Bulgarian accomplishments. I know they are up to a point related to Bulgarians and Greeks from Macedonia, although I'm not very interested in it. The real question is why Macedonia Greek has no Iberia if the Iberian part came from the Byzantines as according to this map it seems like its central point is in Southwest Macedonia with the highest frequency among all the groups here. Also I was thinking why does Northern Greece and Southwest Macedonia has so high Longobard sample as its known Longobards never entered Balkans. There were periods when Byzantines were on its knees in the Balkans and there were this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Norman_wars) and this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankokratia), so I was wondering if it can be related.

[catgeorge]

Agree, he wasn't a slav. He was Bulgarian.

Plus your question is flawed, you can also ask how many Greeks fought for the Bulgarian Independence?

He wasn't Bulgarian either, he was a Vlach from Moschopolis originally after Albanian Brigands destroyed it in the late 1770s. You know very little about him and can sense your excitable disposition when you erroneously found Gatsos.

I'm talking about the Slavs whose surname end with -ov -ev etc....Can you find any?

[Pubiczar]

Turks and Bulgars backslapping each other like the good days.

:whoo:

Can you name the Slavs in North Greece that partook in the revolution against Turks in 1821?

No doubt the most famous of theBulgarianswho fought forGreecein 1821-1832 was Hajji Hristo “theBulgarian”. Hijji Hristo had a rather exciting fate. ... He was welcomed to theGreekrebel army by the leaders of theGreek revolution, Theodoros Kolokotronis and Alexander Ypsilantis.

This guy wasn't from North Greece however but from Bulgaria proper. Angel Gatzo was however from North Greece, a slavophone speaker from Sarakinovo.

[Kaspias]

This is one of the best maps I have seen for the ethnic structure of the population in Macedonia during 19-th century unlike others which present the region as overwhelmingly Bulgarian but just looking at some people's faces you know that's not true.
Blaze Koneski is a real proof for that. He looked like a Serb, Dacic type. It's a myth that Serbs like to spread about them being long face Dinarics. Actually good portion of them are small flashy face with Baltid or Neo-Danubian tendencies, Ivica Dacic type.
Furthermore, the region of Serb presence also follow some interesting characteristics in the local dialects which are largely because of Serbian influences me thinks, along with some very specific customs like Slava.
Unlike this region, the South-East(Strumica-Gevgeli), along with the Central Aegean part of Macedonia shows some of the greatest similarities with the Bulgarian standard language, having preserved (голем ер - ъ, Ъ), lot more similar vocabulary, along with many similar customs such as 'Kolede', 'Surva', 'Imenden' and on and on.
I wouldn't agree just for Debar-Gostivar-Tetovo region which is shown as a pure Serb region but should be mixed Bulgarian-Serb.

Totally agreed. Even points out Muslim Vlachs accurately, it is fantastic.

[bained]

Guys, we devolved into politics again. Let's get back into the genetics topic. I will sacrifice a greek from Patras in show of good will.

Greek_Patras,18.58,15.11,21.99,9.03,29.75,3.24,1.2 9,0,0,0.10,0.56,0.35,0

[Lioncourt]

Then explain why Thracians were Sardinian-like genetically, and modern Bulgarians pull east with higher west Asian/Caucasus component? The only thing that was in between Thracians and modern Bulgarians was the Byzantine empire and Bulgar empire.

West Asian component is mostly of Neolithic origin. All Europeans have it in different percentage. It's not exclusive to the Balkans.

Thracians being like Sardinians, I have never heard about that. What is this study? Did they have enough samples and is it about autosomal DNA?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

West Asian component is mostly of Neolithic origin. All Europeans have it in different percentage. It's not exclusive to the Balkans.

Thracians being like Sardinians, I have never heard about that. What is this study? Did they have enough samples and is it about autosomal DNA?

Euro neolithics had no westasian

[Kaspias]

Then explain why Thracians were Sardinian-like genetically, and modern Bulgarians pull east with higher west Asian/Caucasus component? The only thing that was in between Thracians and modern Bulgarians was the Byzantine empire and Bulgar empire.

Those Sardinian like samples were Neolithic remnants, not Thracians.

It is simply not possible Thracians were Sardinian-like since they have Steppe origin, and Scythian_Moldova samples are a good proxy for Thracians because they are a mix of those Scythians and natives.

[War Chef]

Those Sardinian like samples were Neolithic remnants, not Thracians.

It is simply not possible Thracians were Sardinian-like since they have Steppe origin, and Scythian_Moldova samples are a good proxy for Thracians because they are a mix of those Scythians and natives.

One must ask what you mean by Thracian? I mean these people:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
Neolithic remnants (Starcevo, Cucuteni-Tryptillian, etc.) ARE the ancestors of daco-thracians. Even with massive plague/disease, there was too many of them number-wise to change the genetic landscape of the Balkans. Yamnaya conquered them by elite dominance, and their original steppe genes were diluted very fast. Thracians were more similar to Otzi than they were to pure bred Yamnaya/kurgan/steppe.

[Thracian]

One must ask what you mean by Thracian? I mean these people:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
Neolithic remnants (Starcevo, Cucuteni-Tryptillian, etc.) ARE the ancestors of daco-thracians. Even with massive plague/disease, there was too many of them number-wise to change the genetic landscape of the Balkans. Yamnaya conquered them by elite dominance, and their original steppe genes were diluted very fast. Thracians were more similar to Otzi than they were to pure bred Yamnaya/kurgan/steppe.

I am highly doubt it. Herodotus says there are two types of Thracian, one looks Med and other looks light skinned with light hair/eyes. Some Scythian samples from Moldova are most likely Getaes a Northern Thracian tribe. They plot with Northern Greeks on Global 25 and they are more Northern shifted than BGR_IA AKA Thracian sample.

[War Chef]

I am highly doubt it. Herodotus says there are two types of Thracian, one looks Med and other looks light skinned with light hair/eyes. Some Scythian samples from Moldova are most likely Getaes a Northern Thracian tribe. They plot with Northern Greeks on Global 25 and they are more Northern shifted than BGR_IA AKA Thracian sample.

"Scythian_MD" are everything from celto-germanic people, daco-thracians and in some cases proto-slavs. Yeah, maybe Thessalonian Greeks are a good proxy for Thracians...... I was thinking more like Albanians though, as Albanians have a Italian Tuscan thing about them.

[kefalonitis]

I'm more surprised with a lot of Western European in Southwest Macedonian (Iberian + Longobard), nearly 30%, given how Bitola and Ohrid are both seen as hub of early South Slavic culture.

The Iberian probably comes from the Sephardi Jews.


Eastern Sephardim comprise the descendants of the expellees from Spain who left as Jews in 1492 or prior. This sub-group of Sephardim settled mostly in various parts of the Ottoman Empire, which included areas in the Near East (West Asia's Middle East such as Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt), the Balkans in Southeastern Europe. They settled particularly in European cities ruled by the Ottoman Empire including Salonica in what is today Greece, Constantinople which today is known as Istanbul on the European portion of modern Turkey, and Sarajevo in what is today Bosnia and Herzegovina. Sephardic Jews also lived in Bulgaria, where they incorporated into their community the Romaniote Jews they found already living there.

[Kaspias]

I am highly doubt it. Herodotus says there are two types of Thracian, one looks Med and other looks light skinned with light hair/eyes. Some Scythian samples from Moldova are most likely Getaes a Northern Thracian tribe. They plot with Northern Greeks on Global 25 and they are more Northern shifted than BGR_IA AKA Thracian sample.


One must ask what you mean by Thracian? I mean these people:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
Neolithic remnants (Starcevo, Cucuteni-Tryptillian, etc.) ARE the ancestors of daco-thracians. Even with massive plague/disease, there was too many of them number-wise to change the genetic landscape of the Balkans. Yamnaya conquered them by elite dominance, and their original steppe genes were diluted very fast. Thracians were more similar to Otzi than they were to pure bred Yamnaya/kurgan/steppe.

This is what i meant.

Srubnaya for Steppe proxy.

Target: Scythian_MDA
Distance: 1.6554% / 0.01655368
30.2 BGR_IA
30.2 GRC_Mycenaean
26.2 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
13.4 MDA_Cimmerian

By thinking chronological view:

Farmers mixed with Mycaeaens
Cimmerians mixed with Steppe
Steppe mixed with Farmer+Mycaeaen mix

Now(+Slav, + Turkmen for Balkan Turks)

https://i.ibb.co/PY1fw5W/Ads-z.png


"Scythian_MD" are everything from celto-germanic people, daco-thracians and in some cases proto-slavs. Yeah, maybe Thessalonian Greeks are a good proxy for Thracians...... I was thinking more like Albanians though, as Albanians have a Italian Tuscan thing about them.

Thessalonian Greeks don't have more Thracian admixture than the Greek average

[Crn Volk]

This is one of the best maps I have seen for the ethnic structure of the population in Macedonia during 19-th century unlike others which present the region as overwhelmingly Bulgarian but just looking at some people's faces you know that's not true.
Blaze Koneski is a real proof for that. He looked like a Serb, Dacic type. It's a myth that Serbs like to spread about them being long face Dinarics. Actually good portion of them are small flashy face with Baltid or Neo-Danubian tendencies, Ivica Dacic type.
Furthermore, the region of Serb presence also follow some interesting characteristics in the local dialects which are largely because of Serbian influences me thinks, along with some very specific customs like Slava.
Unlike this region, the South-East(Strumica-Gevgeli), along with the Central Aegean part of Macedonia shows some of the greatest similarities with the Bulgarian standard language, having preserved (голем ер - ъ, Ъ), lot more similar vocabulary, along with many similar customs such as 'Kolede', 'Surva', 'Imenden' and on and on.
I wouldn't agree just for Debar-Gostivar-Tetovo region which is shown as a pure Serb region but should be mixed Bulgarian-Serb.

Serb presence is pretty substantial in Vardar Macedonia according to this map.

[Pubiczar]

Serb presence is pretty substantial in Vardar Macedonia according to this map.

I don't know under which criteria was this map made but looks solid. We know that many Serbs of Macedonia came from Porece, Kicevo and Prilep region. We can call them Srbomani but that doesn't change my perception that the Serb influences in those regions are huge, phenotypes and customs above all.

One of the typical Serb look I find among some people in those Northern and Western regions is the face of the former basketball player Dejan Jovanovski

https://i.postimg.cc/wB9vkGbR/dejan-jovanovski.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

To me he looks very Serb and this look is very rare in the Eastern and the Southern regions.

What's your opinion on this map?

Do you think that the Serb presence is exaggerated?

[Crn Volk]

I don't know under which criteria was this map made but looks solid. We know that many Serbs of Macedonia came from Porece, Kicevo and Prilep region. We can call them Srbomani but that doesn't change my perception that the Serb influences in those regions are huge, phenotypes and customs above all.

One of the typical Serb look I find among some people in those Northern and Western regions is the face of the former basketball player Dejan Jovanovski

https://i.postimg.cc/wB9vkGbR/dejan-jovanovski.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

To me he looks very Serb and this look is very rare in the Eastern and the Southern regions.

What's your opinion on this map?

Do you think that the Serb presence is exaggerated?

Yeah I'd like to know the criteria too. Linguistic? Church affiliation? Only Serb presence in Bitolsko was post WW1 Serb settlers. Prilep and north was a hot bed of Chetnik activity, not to mention capital of Marko's medieval state.

[Bosniensis]

Makedonskata genetikata će dokazata da aleksandrata na velikata nije grkata im ebem majkata ta ta t at atat at at

[Pribislav]

Yeah I'd like to know the criteria too. Linguistic? Church affiliation? Only Serb presence in Bitolsko was post WW1 Serb settlers. Prilep and north was a hot bed of Chetnik activity, not to mention capital of Marko's medieval state.

On Skopian Crna Gora and around Kumanovo exist Serbs who are linguistically same as Kosovo Serbs.

[Pribislav]

Makedonskata genetikata će dokazata da aleksandrata na velikata nije grkata im ebem majkata ta ta t at atat at at

Море, добро зборуваш братко. Ко ги ебе Грците, Александар беше чистокрвен Македонец! :lol:

[Thracian]

"Scythian_MD" are everything from celto-germanic people, daco-thracians and in some cases proto-slavs. Yeah, maybe Thessalonian Greeks are a good proxy for Thracians...... I was thinking more like Albanians though, as Albanians have a Italian Tuscan thing about them.

As a group, yes. I guess, maybe I am wrong but some of them are only Balkan remnants. You can also run a few model with them,

Scythian_MDA:scy192,0.124067,0.137096,0.015462,-0.020026,0.015695,-0.012829,0.00235,0.000692,0.001023,0.025878,0.0094 19,-0.000599,-0.006987,-0.008945,-0.013301,-0.009679,0.012908,0.004307,-0.000377,0.003502,-0.011729,0.009892,-0.004314,-0.004338,0.001796
Scythian_MDA:scy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
Scythian_MDA:scy300,0.1161,0.140143,0.025644,-0.031331,0.016618,-0.005299,-0.001645,-0.007384,0.007772,0.033531,0.006983,0.006744,-0.00446,-0.000963,-0.0095,0.002254,-0.000782,0.004561,0.012318,-0.006503,-0.004118,0.012489,-0.00037,-0.000723,0.010298

I also agree with you about Albanians. They also closer to Albanians, yet the distance is relatively higher (around 0.3).

[Thracian]

This is what i meant.

Srubnaya for Steppe proxy.

Target: Scythian_MDA
Distance: 1.6554% / 0.01655368
30.2 BGR_IA
30.2 GRC_Mycenaean
26.2 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
13.4 MDA_Cimmerian

By thinking chronological view:

Farmers mixed with Mycaeaens
Cimmerians mixed with Steppe
Steppe mixed with Farmer+Mycaeaen mix

Now(+Slav, + Turkmen for Balkan Turks)

https://i.ibb.co/PY1fw5W/Ads-z.png



Thessalonian Greeks don't have more Thracian admixture than the Greek average

The scores are slightly changing if you run three of them that I posted below,

Scythian_MDA:scy192,0.124067,0.137096,0.015462,-0.020026,0.015695,-0.012829,0.00235,0.000692,0.001023,0.025878,0.0094 19,-0.000599,-0.006987,-0.008945,-0.013301,-0.009679,0.012908,0.004307,-0.000377,0.003502,-0.011729,0.009892,-0.004314,-0.004338,0.001796
Scythian_MDA:scy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
Scythian_MDA:scy300,0.1161,0.140143,0.025644,-0.031331,0.016618,-0.005299,-0.001645,-0.007384,0.007772,0.033531,0.006983,0.006744,-0.00446,-0.000963,-0.0095,0.002254,-0.000782,0.004561,0.012318,-0.006503,-0.004118,0.012489,-0.00037,-0.000723,0.010298

BGR_IA and Mycenaean go up and Srubnaya goes down.

[Bosniensis]

Some Macedonain-Bulgarian WE WUZ KANGZ video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UscSukfeRSk

[andre]

This is what i meant.

Srubnaya for Steppe proxy.

Target: Scythian_MDA
Distance: 1.6554% / 0.01655368
30.2 BGR_IA
30.2 GRC_Mycenaean
26.2 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
13.4 MDA_Cimmerian

By thinking chronological view:

Farmers mixed with Mycaeaens
Cimmerians mixed with Steppe
Steppe mixed with Farmer+Mycaeaen mix

Now(+Slav, + Turkmen for Balkan Turks)

https://i.ibb.co/PY1fw5W/Ads-z.png



Thessalonian Greeks don't have more Thracian admixture than the Greek average

Which sample do you use for “proto-bulgar”?

[Pubiczar]

Yeah I'd like to know the criteria too. Linguistic? Church affiliation? Only Serb presence in Bitolsko was post WW1 Serb settlers. Prilep and north was a hot bed of Chetnik activity, not to mention capital of Marko's medieval state.

I will cite the book "History of Macedonia" by the Greek Vacalopoulos. Although a Greek and sometimes biased, he gives and cites historical accounts about the inhabitants of Macedonia during the late 17th century from various travelers like Evliya Çelebi and Kâtip Çelebi, known also as Hadji Kalfa, and supplemented by the accounts of the French priest, Robert de Dreux, and of the Englishmen Brown, Covel, and others like Lucas, who come a little later.

Strummica


With its pentagonal castle, Strumica was a town of some significance to the east of the region. In the time of Murad I, Evliya Çelebi tells us, Gazi Evrenos marched against it and captured it from Greek hands[1]. Its castle, built atop an artificial mound, was once high and strong, but in Çelebi's time it was almost in ruins. Hence it had neither a garrison-commander nor any soidiers, but lay untenanted. On winter days it provided shelter for Christian shepherds and their flocks of sheep and goats

This account doesn't tell us about the ethnic make up of Strummica concretely but it tells us that the Turks have taken the town from Greeks and that in the vicinity lives Christian shepherds which might be both Bulgarians or Vlachs since both of those people were involved in those activities however the Vlachs more profoundly.

Independent of this account I will mention the medieval ruler of Strummica Dobromir Chrisos who has been described as a Vlach which might indicate about a Vlach population around Strumica.

The author also mentions Alexander the Great



We find it intruding into the pages of Evliya Çelebi, as when, for instance, he speaks of the castles of Strumica. Clearly, the recollection of Alexander the Great was particularly vivid in these parts.

Skopje


The religious foundations and mosques that the city could boast were numerous, numbering some 120 or so. Particularly famous was the mosque of the 'Hünkâr' (Sultan Murad I). Each mosque had its school nearly. Of the city's 20tekkes(Moslem monasteries) the richest was the house of theMevlevis(Dervishes). There were also Armenian, Bulgarian and Serbian churches, and Jewish synagogues. 'Franks', Hungarians and Austrians were also to be found living in the city, though they did not have their own churches and therefore attended the services in the Serbian churches.

From this account of Evliya Çelebi we learn that Skopje was inhabited by Muslims, Bulgarians and Serbs mainly but also Jews, Armenians, Austrians and Hungarians.

Štip and Tikves


About Štip (see fig. 70) we have but a few insignificant details from Hadji Kalfa. It had quite a respectable castle on a high eminence[5]. The inhabitants of the sixty productive villages of Štip were Bulgarians according to Evliya Çelebi[6], as were likewise the inhabitants of the nahiye(sub-district) of Tikves, which belonged to thesancakof Kyustendil[1].

Tikves and Shtip were inhabited by Bulgarians according to this account.

Prilep


Prilep (Prilapon) had been captured by Timurtash Pasha in the time of Gazi Hüdaveadigâr, that is, Murad I (1362-1389). It was the seat of avoyvodaand belonged to theeyalet(province) of Rumeli. We read that it was a prosperous city, divided into 10 districts, with 1.000 stone-built houses and wide, shady streets. On a precipitous cliff some distance from the city stood a hexagonal stone castle with strong towers. But when Evliya Çelebi was in those parts, he found only three houses and the garrison-commander within the castle[2].

Unfortunately there is no description about the ethnic structure of the people living in Prilep.

Villages between Elbasan and Ohrid


On his way from Elbasan to Ohrid, Evliya Çelebi passed by the village of Bania. At this point he tells us that the task of ensuring the security of the passes of Djalender had been assigned to various Albanian, Greek and Bulgarian villages.

We find Bulgarians here. There are Greeks and Albanians as well.

Struga


The township of Struga was divided into three districts of 300 houses each. It had a good many Greek and Bulgar inhabitants. There were 40 shops and business premises, 5 inns, a poor-house, a seminary, and other amenities. Α ten-day trade-fair took place every year outside the town, and they used to erect a number of temporary booths[2.

Struga had Greek and Bulgarian inhabitants.

Ohrid


Within the enceinte of the castle were 160 well-built and attractive houses with red-tiled roofs belonging to Infidels [non-Turks]; and down below, by the lake-side, there were more than 300 mansions and a handsome palace of thePaşa[1]. Most of the larger houses were situated on the very edge of the Lake. Of the 17 districts composing the town, 10 were inhabited by Moslems and 7 by Greeks, Bulgars and Latins [Vlachs]. The inhabitants generally spoke Bulgarian and Greek (though not Albanian); and they also knew Turkish[2].

Northwards, be-yond the present-day Greek frontier, lay Ohrid, inhabited (Hadji Kalfa tells us[1]) by Bulgarians.


Ohrid was inhabited by Muslims, Greeks, Bulgarians and Vlachs.

Drama


Its inhab-tants were engaged in trade and industry, and spoke both Greek and Bulgarian[8]. The Greeks had a church and an archbishop.

The inhabitants of Drama spoke both Greek and Bulgarian.

Serres


With its Byzantine castle[3], Sérres was certainly a city of note, long famous for its heroic stand against the Turks in 1383. The greater part of the walls had been pulled down by the conquerors to prevent the fortress serving as a focus of Greek resistance in the event of an uprising (as happened in fact with other castles within the Ottoman empire[4]). At this period Sérres was inhabited mainly by Turks (30 out of its 40 districts were Moslem), together with Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Bulgars and Serbs.

Serres was inhabited by Turks (30 out of its 40 districts were Moslem), together with Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Bulgars and Serbs.

Petrich, not to be confused with Petrich in South-Western Bulgaria but it's a town in Greek Macedonia near Greek-Bulgarian border


West of Siderókastro was the small township of Vétrina (modern Néo Petrítsi), which had avali, a kadı, avoyvoda, a deputy-kâhyaof thesipahis, aserdarof janissaries, etc. Forty-eight villages belonged to the prefecture. Vétrina's beautiful stone houses were two storeyed with balustrades, sun-roofs and high terraces, and were embellished with rose-gardens. The various districts of the town were inhabited some by Moslems, and others by Bulgars, Greeks or Serbs.

Inhabited by Muslims, Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs. Interesting that we find many Serbs in the region of Serres.

Doksan-Buz


Following now the road from Sérres to Thessalonica, we come to Doksan-Buz, which constituted the property of whoever happened to be the Grand Vizir at the time, and was administered by him through his representative, anağa. Thanks to the proximity of the garrisons stationed in the cities mentioned above, Doksan-Buz had no need of a garrison of its own and had no commander of Janissaries. It was, however, the seat of an Islamic court. The village was inhabited by Greeks and Bulgarians, who gained a livelihood from fishing

In this village there are Greeks and Bulgarians.

Sveta Gora, Mounth Athos


The monks of the monasteries of Ayiou Pavlou, Chilandariou and Xenophontos came from Serbia and Bulgaria, and it was difficult to find in them anyone who knew Greek. As one can see, with the steadily growing resistance on the part of the Greek monks (a subject already discussed in the previous chapter), the Slav monks were by now limited to three monasteries only. The Greeks were obviously recovering the ground they had lost during the first two centuries of Turkish rule.

Not much surprise here, the monks are primarily Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs.

Langada and Galatista


Α little to the north is Langadá, while some 25 kilometres to the south-east is Galátista, both of these being townships still well-known today. At the beginning of the 18thcentury, Braconnier tells us that Galátista was inhabited by Greeks, with a well organized and self-governing community. He also mentions the activities of the Jesuits in the town[2]. At Langadá, on the other hand, according to Hadji Kalfa, the population was made up of Greeks, Serbs and Moldavians[3]. There can be no doubt that by 'Moldavians' he means Vlachs; in fact Vlachs are specifically mentioned by Evliya Çelebi[4]. It is worth noting, too, that speaking of Langadá, Evliya Çelebi writes Bulgars instead of Serbs. This confusion as to the distinction between Serbs and Bulgars (and we find numerous other instances) demonstrates the fact that in these districts a dialect was spoken which had much in common with the two respective Slav languages — the result of a mixture of Slavs which varied from place to place, sometimes the Bulgarian influence predominating and sometimes the Serbian. It is a striking fact that all the travellers who visited Macedonia during this obscure period (including the fanciful Evliya Çelebi) distinguished the inhabitants according to nationalities, i.e. Greeks, Jews, Bulgars, Serbs, etc; and they did not discern a single οverriding nationality which could be termed 'Macedonian', as the present scholars of Skopje are wont to do.

Here we find Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians and Serbs. It seems that here the travelers had problems to distinguish between a Serb and a Bulgar. An already started process of amalgamation between the two ethnicities?

Villages north of Langada


The inhabitants of the villages to the north of the lake of Langadá — Greeks, Vlachs and Bulgarians — had abandoned their villages and become bandits (hayduks), and for that reason their houses had crumbled into ruins[2]. It is not difficult to surmise the identity of those Turks who had so harassed the Christian villagers, if we remember that the Turks who inhabited the surrounding villages were the Yürüks — descendants of the first Ottoman conquerors.

Greeks, Bulgarians and Vlachs.

Solun


The largest city in the region, and by and large the capital of Macedonia, was Thessalonica.Thessalonica had 48 Moslem districts, 56 Jewish and 16 inhabited by Greeks, Armenians and others.

Yaydjilar


At one day's march north of Thessalonica stood the village of Yaydjilar, near the lake of the same name [2]. It contained 500 houses, half of which belonged to Greeks and Bulgarians and the other half to Moslems [3].

Muslims, Greeks and Bulgarians here.

Zensko


Further north lay Avret Hisar (modern Gynaikókastro), inhabited by Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs, who were engaged in trade and industry.

In this village south-east of Doiran lake we find Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs.

Doiran


Further north still lay Doiráni, which constituted the seat of akâhya yeri, a deputy-chief of Janissaries, a produce-superintendant and avoyvoda. It had houses of two storeys, various educational and religious establishments, orchards, vineyards, market-gardens, and on the neighbouring mountains grazed flocks of sheep. Doïráni was inhabited mainly by Greeks and Bulgars, the Moslems being in a decided minority. However, in the rural areas it was Vlachs who predominated; they were a free people and good farmers[6].

In Doiran lived Greeks, Bulgarians and Muslims in small numbers. However in it's rural vicinity the Vlachs were dominant. The only Vlachs I can think of are the Meglen Vlachs who live west of Doiran in the foothills of Paiak mountain. However it seems that the Vlachs here were much stronger element according to this account and probably were Bulgarised over time.

Enidze Vardar


West of Doïráni lay the famous Moslem township of Yenidje Vardar or Yenitsá (it did, however, have a few Greek inhabitants)[1].

Enidze Vardar was inhabited by Muslims and Greeks.

Ber, Negus and Vodena


In the Vermion region we find the three major cities Véroia, Náousâ and Édessa.

Véroia (or Karaferya, as the Turks called it) constituted akazaof 300akçes, and belonged to thesancakof Thessalonica. The Turkish authorities based in the city were composed, among others, of theşeyh-ül-islam, thenakib-ül eşraf, thekâhyaof thesipahis, theserdarof Janissaries, and thekâhyaof the city. It contained about 4.000 houses, divided amongst the 16 Moslem districts and the 15 Infidel [i.e. non-Moslem]—Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, Latin [meaning Vlach] and Jewish.


Muslims, Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Vlachs and Jews in Ber.


Náousa (Ágoustos) was at this period a large Christian village[1], and awakfof Gazi Evrenos; hence it was administered by hismütevelli(bailiff). It was the headquarters of thenaipof thekazaof Véroia, and belonged to thesancakof Thessalonica. The village contained 1.000 houses, a market and a bazaar, and was inhabited by Greeks[2].


Only Greeks in Negus.


, and was certainly existent in the time of Çelebi. Édessa, he goes on to say, was a small town constituting akazathat belonged to thesancakof Thessalonica and had various administrative officers: thekâhyaof the town, theserdarof Janissaries, theağaand thesubaşı.]

Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians in Vodena.

Lerin


West of Édessa stood the small township of Flórina, which was divided into six 'districts' containing 1.500 houses in all, spaced widely apart. It had 14 mosques, 3medreses, atekkeof dervishes, 7 elementary schools and 2 bath-houses. For the convenience of travellers there were two large inns. The town did not possess a covered market, but had , about a hundred business-premises. Its government officials were composed of thekâhyaof the town, theserdarof Janissaries, etc.[1]. Flórina was full of gardens, watered by a tributary of the River Erigon (of Monastir)[2].



The majority of the villages around Flórina, like Egri Budjak, Ostrovo and Langa, were inhabited by Turks[3]. Evliya Çelebi relates that he found in the district of Egri Budjak avilayetof Yürüks.

Unfortunately we don't have much info about the Christian inhabitants of Lerin and it's surrounding.

Bitola


We now come to Monastir, a large city, full of greenery and built on the lower slopes of a mountain above the River Erigon (Crna). In fact, the vegetation of those parts was so dense that the city could not be seen from a distance because of all the trees that surrounded it. It was divided into 21 'districts'. Its 3.000 or so houses were large, two-storeyed and roofed with tiles. It, too, constituted a hass belonging to Fatimá, and was administrated by hervoivoda.
Of the 900 business-establishments in the city, those of the turners and the taillors were particularly outstanding. Monastir was famous for its flax, which was finer than that from Egypt[3]. Hadji Kalfa, wrongly informed, states that its inhabitants were Bulgarians[4]. It is known for certain that the tailors and their families were Vlachs (as we shall see later).

Hadzi Kalfa gives us account that Bitola was inhabited by Bulgarians only but the Greek author thinks that that's not true and that there were Vlachs as well. Is this a bias from the Greek author or is he right?

Kostur


Kastoriá was yet anotherhasof the Sultana, constituting akazaof 150akçeswith 110 villages within its jurisdiction. Α garrison-commander with a force of 50 soldiers was based in its imposing castle, which was built on the western edge of the Lake of Kastoriá, up on a steep cliff, with lofty walls and two iron gates. In its bailey there was accommodation for 200 soldiers, as well as store-rooms for grain and a powder-magazine. No Greek dwelt within the castle, though outside it were 20 'districts' of which 16 were Greek and one Jewish.

Evliya gives us a vivid description of the picturesque lake of Kastoriá and the methods of fishing on it, and tells of the fish-paste that was made there and sold to foreign merchants, who conveyed it to the neighbouring districts. Later on, he goes on to talk about the surrounding villages, the greater number of which were Turkish. The reign of terror inflicted by the klepht Pano was felt throughout the whole district[3].

On the opposite shore of the lake was a large Greek village called Léhtsista[4]. The mountains surrounding Kastoriá were inhabited by a stock of people derived from the mixture of Serbs and Vlachs[5], while Hrupista (Árgos Orestikón) was inhabited by Bulgars[6]. Northwards, be-yond the present-day Greek frontier, lay Ohrid, inhabited (Hadji Kalfa tells us[1]) by Bulgarians.


This account says that Kastoria was inhabited by Greeks and Jews while it's surrounding was inhabited by Greeks, Turks, Bulgarians, Vlachs and Serbs. Also Hadzi Kalfa says something about Ohrid and that's inhabited by Bulgarians only.

Further the author goes on to say:


As far as I know, Evliya and Hadji Kalfa are the last foreign travellers to mention Serbs along with the other nationalities in 'Greater Macedonia'. Later on, that is to say, from the beginning of the 18thcentury, there is mention only of Bulgarians, afact which show sthat the Bulgars — through the steady descent of farmers andlabourers — formed the largest Slav group and gradually absorbed the sparse Serbian element. Did any separate remnant of the Serbs survive? Cvijić affirms that this mixture of Bulgars and Serbs created an "amorphous mass, which preserved here and there elements of Serbian traditions, but by and large the region constituted a land devoid of ethnic consciousness"[2]. This groups of Slavs was to remain 'amorphous' during the 18thand the beginning of the 19thcentury; but after the turn of the century these people, already Bulgar in name, began to acquire a Bulgarian national consciousness.



Cvijić admits that Bulgarian propaganda had contributed in a general way to this orientation. But as a fervent nationalist devoted to the idea of a greater Serbia, re-created with the proportions of the old Serb empire, and relying on the 'amorphous' nature of the Slav feeling of nationality, Cvijić had hopes that if Serbia annexed 'Greater Macedonia' she would, within a short time, be able to re-convert the cities into Serbian ones, just as they had become in the past Bulgarian within some twenty or thirty years[3].



But when Cvijić talks about 'Bulgarian' cities (in quite general and unspecified terms), he means the cities of Northern Macedonia, situated mainly in what is nowadays Yugoslavia. About the presence of Greeks in these cities (a subject we shall be treating at greater lenght presently) Cvijić displays complete—though doubtless studied—ignorance. He does, however, recognise the Bulgarian character of the present Bulgarian Macedonia, where in 1878 there had taken place a number of uprisings, having a distinctly Bulgarian character[4].


In short, the author is not agreeing with Cvijic who talks about a Bulgarian-Serb amalgamation and thus forming of a amorphous mass of people avoided of any national conciseness and thinks that the Greek element was also significant here.

As far as I know, Cvijic in his works did say something about the Slavic speaking inhabitants of Vardar Macedonia that by their nature and mentality they do resemble Greeks in some way rather than any kind of Serbs or Bulgarians.

[Kaspias]

The scores are slightly changing if you run three of them that I posted below,

Scythian_MDA:scy192,0.124067,0.137096,0.015462,-0.020026,0.015695,-0.012829,0.00235,0.000692,0.001023,0.025878,0.0094 19,-0.000599,-0.006987,-0.008945,-0.013301,-0.009679,0.012908,0.004307,-0.000377,0.003502,-0.011729,0.009892,-0.004314,-0.004338,0.001796
Scythian_MDA:scy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
Scythian_MDA:scy300,0.1161,0.140143,0.025644,-0.031331,0.016618,-0.005299,-0.001645,-0.007384,0.007772,0.033531,0.006983,0.006744,-0.00446,-0.000963,-0.0095,0.002254,-0.000782,0.004561,0.012318,-0.006503,-0.004118,0.012489,-0.00037,-0.000723,0.010298

BGR_IA and Mycenaean go up and Srubnaya goes down.

What was the percentage? It makes sense though


Which sample do you use for “proto-bulgar”?

I made it myself by subtracting Balkan admixture from Bulgarians

[bained]

"The Karos samples’ STR data are 1 genetic distance on 17 loci in the Balkans to a Bulgarian from Montana and 2 mutation steps to a Bulgarian from Sofia, a Bulgarian from Plovdiv, and a Tuscan Albanian".

I wanna share the good news from the new magyar paper. My WE WUZ is complete.

[JohnnyP]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g/780px-Ethnographische_Karte_von_Makedonien_%281899%29.jp g

Thats all where said Bulgarians were Macedonians...
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Changing from Macedonians to Bulgarians , this is original documents.


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