What is your take on the miscegenation in 'Lord of the Rings'?

[Arrow Cross]

Here we go. Even on forums where the posters generally agree on most topics, I like to create polls that will be debated. First in the series, we deal with J.R.R. Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings', a much-popular fantasy setting in which several different species coexist (or don't) with humanity on a continent called 'Middle Earth'. One of these species - inspired from Northen European folklore - called the 'Elves' are slim, agile, long-eared creatures with unlimited natural lifespan - I hardly need to describe them. According to Tolkien, these creatures can succesfully interbreed with Humans, though it only happened 3 times in history, these stories are heavily promoted and popularized in his books(LotR and The Silmarils) in the forms of "heroic" inter-species love stories, e.g.: Aragorn and Arwen.

Now, it is obviously "just fantasy", but so is anything that comes out of Hollywood, regardless of the genre, these stories can have great impact on the targeted audience, especially if it's the youth, as in this case. Peter Jackson's famous and well-made movie of the same title further emphasized and heroized this love story and its meaning: your blood doesn't matter, your culture doesn't matter, your traditions don't matter, only love matters.

The paralels between this and real-life miscegenation are quite obvious, skin colour is meaningless in this context. And so is the agenda which it advances, love without responsibility towards one's own blood. If some people hold such stories in high regard as part of the Aryan culture, then we're rotten and doomed indeed.

What do you think? Elaborate your choices.

[The Dragonslayer]

I had never really thought about that before when watching it. You've got a good point. It could definitely be seen as an "interracial" type of romance. It does seem to say that nothing should stand in the way of love. I'll be interested in seeing what others have to say about this. I've got think more about this before I say much more.

[Stormraaf]

It might be worthwhile to keep in mind that Tolkien did include a problem based on their racial differences in Lord of the Rings - that Arwen will outlive Aragorn and their child, since elves are immortal and humans are not. One of the arguments that pro-miscegenation multi-culturists deny or ignore in real life (IRL) is that there really are problems with mixing.

That Aragorn and Arwen were of different race did irk me, and after reading Arrow Cross's post I do agree that it represents miscegenation, but I'm not so sure it promoted pro-miscegenation concepts IRL. After all, it does seem as if the Elf race in LotR were designed to be liked by Europeans, which you can't say of most other races IRL.

[The Dragonslayer]

I'll be honest that I didn't think about the difference between humans and elves in Lord of the Rings. I guess because they looked the same except for the pointy ears.

[SouthernBoy]

Yes, it is miscegenation, but it is a lovely story and has a good influence. I picked the second choice. I think it's benign. :)

[Arrow Cross]

Many things look similar, but are extremely different at the core. If we look at the issue from an "Elven perspective", it's quite obvious that it's even a worse dysgenical move than a White human miscegenating with a Black one.

Yeah, fantasy...but I don't like sick fairy tales.

[Sigurd]

Tolkien had several counts of Human-Elf relationships, also in the Silmarillion. It should be noted that he included the difficulties faced by either of these groups, and that generally the elvish side of things didn't exactly approve of the coupling. Also note that once the mortal blood gets in there, the kids are no longer immortal. :wink

What may also be noted is that Elrond explicitly stated that he would not give his daughter to no less human, unless he were the King of Arnor and Gondor --- as such, the eventual permission for Aragorn to marry Arwen was given on the basis of his standing and would have been refused if he were merely a human.

One should also bear in mind that Aragorn comes from the line of Numenorian kings, who are directly descended from a human-elf coupling some approx. 6,000 years before the storyline of Lord of the Rings. :p

Whether it should be viewed as miscegenation is a completely different matter. As I stated elsewhere, Tolkien modelled the elven languages on Finnish and Welsh - as such, we are talking about two other people's within the larger Central & Northern European concept.

He should also be seen to have modelled the different types of elves upon them: Only one type of elves have light hair pigment, the other have dark hair pigment, it is stated so explicitly in the Silmarillion.

As such - maybe the "high elven language" of Quenya being descended from these shows that these are the more distant, less seen and more removed Finns. The other groups, who should mainly speak Sindarin as their language of discourse would then be the Celts.

In that way, a human-elf mixing would be not much different than someone of mixed Celto-Germanic heritage, such as a Welsh-English coupling. It should as such me seen as meta-ethnic mixing, and maybe not as miscegenation per se?!

If not, then it could be seen as one of those myths that feature in any type of mythology: Mortal-immortal love. The elves are after all pretty much quasi-divine beings aren't they? It'd even explain other things such as the elven rings being three - and let's face it, Galadriel's mirror is a carbon copy of Mimir's Well - you fall into it for a small sacrifice and you gain wisdom and foresight.

Tolkien had his very subtle ways. He was far from being a racist, but there is some inherently folkish feeling to his books and his characters: For the most part, his main and good characters are pretty much all white men, as should be noticed. On top of that, many folk groups were modelled on the Germanics he so loved: The riders of Rohan are ultimately answering the question of: What would have happened if the Anglo-Saxons had arrived at Hastings on horseback? :D

He also always had his subtle ways about commenting on issues going on in the world in his free time. When they were all conversing about the problems of Africa, he - as a person born in South Africa - would always point out "I was born on that continent, and am of the opinion that ..."

Don't read things into Tolkien that aren't there, because even though he always stated that there is no allegory: He had his influences and ideas, and they are more than just a little evident in his books. And at that, I do not think that he supported miscegenation.

At best, the whole Aragorn-Arwen thing being eventually allowed by Elrond would be something like --- "My girl ain't marrying an African-American, unless he is the President of the United States". If Obama then would have, after attaining presidency-elect opted to go for a white wife, then her father would have had to keep to that promise which was thought to be impossible. :p

And again - look back at the "Once a drop of mortal blood is in there, the immortality fades". It does sort of remind of "Once a drop of foreign-race blood is in there, your kids will always look 'a little exotic'". Get it? :wink

[HvS]

I have to add something to this serious discussion ;).
There is NO kind of propaganda in Tolkien's books, especially about such irrational problem as interracial couples.
You may try to find many plots, that seem to be inspired by history, politics or personal ideological views of Tolkien. But he announced it plenty of times, in different interviews or so, that he wanted to create a brand new world of Middlearth, and he wishes not to compare anything from those tales to our world. Any compartments of the Rohirrim to the Anglo-Saxon, or Sauron to Hitler, or the main conflict to the Great War are just unfounded.

I think we should leave Master Tolkien in peace and let him sleep well ;)

[Arrow Cross]

At best, the whole Aragorn-Arwen thing being eventually allowed by Elrond would be something like --- "My girl ain't marrying an African-American, unless he is the President of the United States". If Obama then would have, after attaining presidency-elect opted to go for a white wife, then her father would have had to keep to that promise which was thought to be impossible. :p

And again - look back at the "Once a drop of mortal blood is in there, the immortality fades". It does sort of remind of "Once a drop of foreign-race blood is in there, your kids will always look 'a little exotic'".
That's true. However, it's still miscegenation by all means, because the word miscegenation refers to biology, not symbolism.

I'm not suggesting Tolkien had quasi-Jewish cosmopolitan intentions, but their agenda was certainly popular after the Nazi defeat in World War Two. I'm merely discussing the story's influence here, which kinda makes me want to vomit.

Also, while you might philosophize on this to such lengths and see symbols into it, the average, young and modern White nerd will most probably notice the free love aspect first...and nothing second.
People are stupid, ignorant sheep.

[Arrow Cross]

I have to add something to this serious discussion ;).
There is NO kind of propaganda in Tolkien's books, especially about such irrational problem as interracial couples.
You may try to find many plots, that seem to be inspired by history, politics or personal ideological views of Tolkien. But he announced it plenty of times, in different interviews or so, that he wanted to create a brand new world of Middlearth, and he wishes not to compare anything from those tales to our world. Any compartments of the Rohirrim to the Anglo-Saxon, or Sauron to Hitler, or the main conflict to the Great War are just unfounded.

I think we should leave Master Tolkien in peace and let him sleep well ;)
Yeah, that's what he said. It certainly takes a great deal of naivity to believe it though.

[Beorn]

I'm not suggesting Tolkien had quasi-Jewish cosmopolitan intentions, but their agenda was certainly popular after the Nazi defeat in World War Two.


The German publishing firm of Rutten & Loening contacted Allen & Unwin in 1938 (the publishers of The Hobbit) and wanted to negotiate with them for a German translation of the book. But first and foremost, they wanted to know if Tolkien was of "arisch" origin. (Aryan) Tolkien wrote a brief note to Stanley Unwin, saying that he wanted to refuse to give them an answer - He didn't want to add to "the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine" by comfirming or denying. However - he didn't want to ruin his chances of The Hobbit being read in Germany. He submitted to Mr. Unwin two drafts of letters to the German publishers, and left it up to Unwin to decide.

Here is one of the drafts:

25 July 1938
To Rutten & Loening Verlag
Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter ... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware noone of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject - which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and remain yours faithfully

J.R.R. Tolkien

http://www.sheilaomalley.com/archives/000720.html

[Arrow Cross]

Yupp, he was a well-known philo-Semite, thanks for posting that. A Churchill in literature, as I like to say.

[Sigurd]

Dear comrade Arrow Cross, I believe you fail to see tha value of subtle humour. He may have well disagreed with the National Socialist teachings, but I see no Semitophilia in what he says. In fact, if somebody asked me such a question, I would probably be sarcastic enough to start out on a "I regret to inform you..." note, too. It's more of a subtle mocking of what he perceived an over-the-top view on the whole race/subrace matter than any real statement of quality of the Jewish folk, I am lead to think upon reading this. :wink


Also, while you might philosophize on this to such lengths and see symbols into it, the average, young and modern White nerd will most probably notice the free love aspect first...and nothing second.
People are stupid, ignorant sheep.

Such may well be, but we need not concern ourselves overly with actively converting those that are just ignorant sheep. As the wind begins to turn, these sheeple will follow anything that we might preach just as readily as they follow the current zeitgeist. Whilst thre revolution probably has to come from below, but He who does not have the intellectual spirit to grasp it but prefers to follow those who lead will eventually follow our lead. ;)

[Arrow Cross]

But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
Well, this is quite consistent with his later opinions and writings - including the poison of a literature that is Lord of the Rings -, I do think he tried to be polite and formal, but no sign of cynism, at least not towards the Jewish people.
However, his referation to the Aryans as Hinuds really is. He surely knew what the Germans were talking about.

[Nastrander]

What people seem to forget here is that Elrond's full name is Elrond Half-elven, he is in fact the result of a union between man and elf.

Now if we assume that elves are the superior race, then by any standards used by anyone concerned with miscegenation today, Elrond would be assigned to the inferior race, ie he would be considered a man. He of course married an elf, but by using the one drop rule, his daughter and sons would also be be considered human.

I don't think any of you would consider it miscegenation if a member of the "inferior" race married a mixed race person, so whats the problem here?

I suggest that, in fact there was no miscegenation in the Lord of The Rings at all, since the (racially defined) human Arwen married the human Aragorn.

Next? :D

[Nastrander]

"But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people."

don't you people understand he's having the Germans on? Tolkien was simply a genius, he shows it in every word he writes :D

[Nastrander]

Well, this is quite consistent with his later opinions and writings - including the poison of a literature that is Lord of the Rings -, I do think he tried to be polite and formal, but no sign of cynism, at least not towards the Jewish people.
However, his referation to the Aryans as Hinuds really is. He surely knew what the Germans were talking about.

I'm sure you know that Aryan originally referred to a language group and the people that spoke those languages. Tolkein was simply using the "proper" definition of the word. Of course he knew the National Socialist definition, but once again he was having them on, making fun of them so to speak.

:D

[Arrow Cross]

Of course he was "making fun of them", Tolkien was an intellectual antifa. However, your association with the swastika and National Socialism makes your fascination towards him a little bit discredited. Or is it the other way around? ;)

It's saddening how the filth of miscegenation has to taint even supposedly "beautiful" fairy-tales.

[Nastrander]

Of course he was "making fun of them", Tolkien was an intellectual antifa. However, your association with the swastika and National Socialism makes your fascination towards him a little bit discredited. Or is it the other way around? ;)

I not sure where the validity of your claim that I have an association with National Socialism comes from, but I've love to hear about it :D

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[Arrow Cross]

I not sure where the validity of your claim that I have an association with National Socialism comes from, but I've love to hear about it :D
Oh, so you're a swastika-mystique, eh? Very well then. Go ahead and "distance yourself" from those evil Nazis. That won't stop your enemies from calling you one.

[Nastrander]

Oh, so you're a swastika-mystique, eh? Very well then. Go ahead and "distance yourself" from those evil Nazis. That won't stop your enemies from calling you one.

LOL, I don't know how many times I've been called a Nazi. Of course leftists call anyone that disagrees with them a Nazi.

You can check out an assortment of other names I've been called here:

very amusing ;)

Commie Complaint Form (http://www.geocities.com/freedom_web/complain.htm)

By the way, I try to conduct myself by the following maxim: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I would guess that you and I have many common enemies :D

[Aemma]

Sorry AC, but I had to vote "C" on this one. If you take me as an example of the typical person who has never read these books (:eek:) and has only seen the movies (double :eek:) I think the issue of miscegenation being a theme in either rendition would have sailed clear above most people's heads. It did mine until you pointed this out in this thread as a potential theme, either deliberately offered or not by the author and then picked up again by the films' director. And note, I consider myself a fairly well educated and intelligent person too.

If anything, the love story as portrayed in the films at any rate should perhaps be viewed more so than not as a bit of romantic eye candy for your *average* woman who would have seen this at the movies with either hubby, boyfriend, or son. (Hollywood being replete with astute businessmen of course would have thought of such a thing--why deliberatly exclude half of the population? That's hardly good for the financial bottom line after all. ;)) And I am quick to state *average* woman here. I don't doubt for a minute that there are many women who have loved reading LoTR and have equally enjoyed the theatrical renderings and have made thematic connections such as that which you've presented. But I would hazard perhaps not most. Perhaps not even most men, I would dare say. So all of this is to say that if a reasonably well educated and intelligent person who's been around a block or two failed to make such a connection, I doubt very much that *most* of our youth would have as well.

But I do appreciate the sense of your enquiry as to how deeply embedded such a theme can be found in our pop culture. Your message is not lost on me by any stretch and if anything you've given me a bit more of an eye opener.

Cheers!...Aemma

[Arrow Cross]

LMAO. I think I'm going to make a romantic movie about a human woman falling in love with a talking, well-shaved and heroic chimpanzee gentleman. They'll also have lovely kids in the sequels. I think it'd be a blockbuster, even among pro-White folks. After all, both their skins will be white, so who could possibly object to it?

Whadoyathink?

[GUSTAVUS ADOLPHUS]

As Elves are supernatural, we can view them as equal to Norse gods in theory. As Norse gods sometimes mated with humans, I don't view this as particularly bad, seeing as the Gods were reflections of humans.

All in all, LotR is okay.

[Aemma]

LMAO. I think I'm going to make a romantic movie about a human woman falling in love with a talking, well-shaved and heroic chimpanzee gentleman. They'll also have lovely kids in the sequels. I think it'd be a blockbuster, even among pro-White folks. After all, both their skins will be white, so who could possibly object to it?

Whadoyathink?

No, and I dearly hope I'm not being misinterpreted AC for this is not what I said either. All I said was that I don't think that the issue of miscegenation would have been at the forefront of your *average* viewer of *these films*, or of the reader of the book either for that matter. That's all that I wanted to make as a point.

My original post was going to be more along the lines of what Gustavus Adolphus has written actually, since in my faith, we also recognise the very heathen elements that are prevalent in LoTR. Tolkien did indeed rely heavily upon the pre-Christian Germanic traditions found in our lore and folklore when it comes to this work in particular. And I'm very much in agreement with what Gustavus has written from a more heathen spiritual standpoint.


Anyway, thems my two cents...Aemma

[Sigurd]

Thanks for pointing these matters out, anyhow. That is a very fair point, actually. Upon reading the "Gods & Humans" analogy, I remembered a point I'd recently not touched upon sufficiently - in fact, a central character in my own novel (well, the one I am working on) is partially of "mixed heritage", but it was about giving him some heritage of divine creatures as it were rather than making him a descendant of miscegenation. :D

Hel, otherwise I'm taking my user name from a known "miscegenator of the heart". It's well known that folk hero Sigurd, if going by Volsunga Saga, had the hots for a valkyrie, 't being Brynhild. :wink

[Revenant]

I think there are some undertones of miscegination here but not really major ones compared to what we see in mainstream slop culture.

As I read LOTR when I was a child and then saw the movie I will admit it wasn't how I imagined it as a youngster with a vivid imagination. Most movies don't compare to the books though.

The main issue I will take with you here AC is in your original post you say that this sort of stuff has a influence. I question the extent of it. People who want to racemix are always looking for excuses to do so, these movies I don't think would make much of a difference to them either way, they are just perverted. For example someone like you or I, it doesn't matter how many times we see racemixing we are revolted by it.

[Eldritch]

Tolkien was dead set against anyone interpreting LotR as an allegory of sny real-life events, like WW2 or whatever. And the elves who lived in Middle Earth weren't immortal; their lifespans were immensely long, but not endless. I'd say it was unadvisable for Arwen to marry Aragorn, but I wouldn't condemn it outright.

[HawkR]

Didn't the fact be that Arwen would loose here long lifespan if she married Aragorn?

[Absinthe]

Didn't the fact be that Arwen would loose here long lifespan if she married Aragorn?
Yes :D

So there you have it, it's actually condemnation of miscegenation: marry outside your race, die sooner :lol:

[Inese]

The relationship between Aragorn and Arwen is okay because Elves are the prototype of European beauty (pale, slander, noble - Am I an elf! :cool: ) and Elves are born and a part of Nordish mythology!

A big problem would it be if Elves mix with Orcs or Humans mix with Orcs in the story!! :mad: But this is not the case.

[Groenewolf]

Humans mix with Orcs in the story!! :mad: But this is not the case.

You mean the Urukai'sx, or what those shocktroops of Sauruman where called right?

[Psychonaut]

It's as much miscegenation as Sigurðr's relationship with Brynhildr was, which is to say not really at all. I mean come on, the elves are clearly more than just another race. They're the earthly manifestations of the Gods. They're effectively immortal. They're "the shining ones." Miscegenation would be if Theoden took a filthy Southron woman for a wife. :D

[Arrow Cross]

I'd say humans too are immortal, shining gods to many animals. These so-called "elves" could be killed just as easily, had their old, short-sighted feuds, while walking down a path of liberal degeneracy, e.g.: letting Isildur keep the Ring after they died by the thousands to defeat Sauron for the first time("we cannot force him to anything, even if it takes an apocalypse"-style), letting mixbloods take leading positions of power, and being completely cool with producing more, 'cause they were sailing west to disappear forever anyways.

If you want an archeotype for a dying race, here it is, perfectly depicted. Tolkien also adds in his third book that with time, they went completely extinct. Who the hell could these be appealing to? Yet, the focus is still not on this factor, but on the "romantic" love story. Not everyone can spot what you did, Absinthe, in fact, the moronic masses would only focus on the main theme, which I elaborated in the first post. ;)

I don't think the Valkyrie thing would be in the same category, after all, they're normal human beings lifted by Odin and granted special powers, aren't they? :coffee:

[Aemma]

Yet, the focus is still not on this factor, but on the "romantic" love story. Not everyone can spot what you did, Absinthe, in fact, the moronic masses would only focus on the main theme, which I elaborated in the first post. ;)

And so you are addressing me as well then AC, calling me a member of the 'moronic masses' then since I gave you an honest answer in terms of what I thought? Romance and action sell movies AC, plain and simple. And that's all I was alluding to. Yet you've not even been able to give me credit for at least having been honest and admitting that the theme of miscegenation never even once entered my mind when I saw these movies. Nor credit for even thanking you for having opened my eyes a bit more to such themes that are deeply embedded in pop culture.

I think your assessment is harsh AC. Just because I didn't see it as you do doesn't make me a moron. It just makes me a human being with a different lense, one that is getting a major readjustment as time goes on, not a moron.

:(...Aemma

[Oresai]

I think Tolkien simply wrote a damn fine story, without wondering if folks would dissect it for undercurrent meanings and the like. ;)
I watched, and enjoyed, the movies (and read the books when quite young) simply to enjoy the spectacle and atmosphere of it all. Movies for me are simply entertainment and I don`t take my morals or ethics from those or even great literary works, though they may influence me by lodging in my mind and giving me food for thought.
The movies looked pretty (or heroic, depending on your viewpoint, personally I thought both :D) and the music was beautiful, the fantasy of them all allowed me to immerse myself in worlds which contained an element of mythic familiarity, both through Norse and other imagery, which is what I was raised with, so to sink into the movies was like curling up with a good book, an old friend. :)
Though there`s little doubt that films, music, literature etc DO affect young and growing minds, I believe that if those minds are well grounded in the literary and artistic heritage of their own cultures, they will see such things for the enriching experiences they can be, whilst retaining the common sense to see that such things are man-created and so, tainted to a greater or lesser extent by the originator`s viewpoint and mindset.
When it comes to romance, sadly the appeal of the vastly different, the exotic, the `unknown`, will always be there for young people that are frankly, hormone driven at certain stages of life. ;) There comes a time in many peoples development when they feel the desire to rebel against and reject their own culture and heritage, simply because familiarity breeds contempt.
But I do believe a healthy, strong and stable education in the value of their own kind helps them re evaluate that leaning and with luck, come back `home`. :)
I like Absinthe`s point about the miscegenation in the movie being seen as a bad thing...Aragorn dies, Arwen is shown mourning by his grave, and coupled with Arrow Cross` point about the apathy of the elvish race, well, personally speaking, I wouldn`t find an elvish man attractive ;)
In fact I`ve noticed that theme in many books...the `higher` race being one that barely deigns to notice humans or that is disdainful of human life, human ambition and emotion. Most portray the more advanced races as being too proud or uncaring, of viewing others as beneath them in many ways.
Such with Arwen`s father.
Such happens too, within human society, for aren`t there many races we none of us would wish our own children to wed? ;)
A common theme throughout life.

[Arrow Cross]

And so you are addressing me as well then AC, calling me a member of the 'moronic masses' then since I gave you an honest answer in terms of what I thought? Romance and action sell movies AC, plain and simple. And that's all I was alluding to. Yet you've not even been able to give me credit for at least having been honest and admitting that the theme of miscegenation never even once entered my mind when I saw these movies. Nor credit for even thanking you for having opened my eyes a bit more to such themes that are deeply embedded in pop culture.

I think your assessment is harsh AC. Just because I didn't see it as you do doesn't make me a moron. It just makes me a human being with a different lense, one that is getting a major readjustment as time goes on, not a moron.

:(...Aemma
Oh dear, it haven't even crossed my mind, I'm terribly sorry if you interprented my post that way. I was referring to the average, the massperson, the consumer idiot of 90 IQ Shopping Maul Planet™. I also wrote it in the context of my first post, where I highlighted that the target audience for this propaganda would be the sentimental teenager. You don't fit either categories.

It is true that you said you weren't thinking about it(just like many others here), but why the hell would that make you one of the "moronic masses", when the very fact that you post on this forum denies that? In fact, that's the very reason I started this thread for, I like barely explored and / or debated topics. And I haven't called the masses that way because they are not thinking about such things, but because they're so deep in degeneracy that they deserve it by default. Sorry, it's my bitter look on life.

No... I was of course glad that it made you think about the issue, but at the end of the day, it's still just a silly fantasy story worthy of little in-depth effort on our parts. So don't worry, it wasn't the least addressed to you, or any other person here, even the fact that you caught my point and message indicates otherwise.

I, however, will still continue to despise the average human sheep for being so eager and ready to turn against his very nature by propaganda a lot less subtle and hidden than LotR.
Thus, Apricity members are de facto super-humans in my book... "Elves" if you prefer the usage of interprentation. ;)

[Aemma]

Understood and thank you Arrow Cross.

:)...Aemma


Oh dear, it haven't even crossed my mind, I'm terribly sorry if you interprented my post that way. I was referring to the average, the massperson, the consumer idiot of 90 IQ Shopping Maul Planet™. I also wrote it in the context of my first post, where I highlighted that the target audience for this propaganda would be the sentimental teenager. You don't fit either categories.

It is true that you said you weren't thinking about it(just like many others here), but why the hell would that make you one of the "moronic masses", when the very fact that you post on this forum denies that? In fact, that's the very reason I started this thread for, I like barely explored and / or debated topics. And I haven't called the masses that way because they are not thinking about such things, but because they're so deep in degeneracy that they deserve it by default. Sorry, it's my bitter look on life.

No... I was of course glad that it made you think about the issue, but at the end of the day, it's still just a silly fantasy story worthy of little in-depth effort on our parts. So don't worry, it wasn't the least addressed to you, or any other person here, even the fact that you caught my point and message indicates otherwise.

I, however, will still continue to despise the average human sheep for being so eager and ready to turn against his very nature by propaganda a lot less subtle and hidden than LotR.
Thus, Apricity members are de facto super-humans in my book... "Elves" if you prefer the usage of interprentation. ;)

[Brynhild]

I voted no. I don't remember seeing in anyone's post that Aragorn also descended from a line of Elves, and that's why he lived longer than the average mortal. It is for this reason, really, that Aragorn and Arwen would be much of the same kin and I don't see it as miscegenation - however, everyone has a differing perception on what that is. In the real world, a European mixing with an African or Asian would definitely fall into that category, whereas the various strains of the European races would make it more of a complex issue.

I think Tolkien was a very clever man in that the way he wrote allowed him to keep his own views impartial and neutral.

[Frigga]

There's also more to the story of Elrond Half-Elven, and his ancestors.

There's a poem that is referred to in the books, and partially quoted. It is only alluded to in the movies. The Lay of Beren and Luthien is one of the most important stories that Tolkien wrote.

In it, Sauron's master, Morgoth, had stolen three precious jewels, the Silmarils, (hence the name of the book, The Silmarillion) which were the most precious jewels in all of the world, since they carried the light of the Two Trees, which were killed by Morgoth, and Ungoliant, the ancestor of Shelob, (who was a Maia, who took the form of a giant spider) when the jewels were stolen. The whole reason that the Elves who were in the Undying Lands went back to Middle Earth, was to take by force the Silmarils. There were many wars fought in that quest, and the battle lasted for thousands of years. Luthien, was an Elf princess, who was half Elf, half Maia. Melian was her mother, and she was a Maia, which are under the Vala. For comparision: Morgoth was a Vala, Sauron was a Maia. Gandalf, and Saruman were also Maia. There were a group of Elves, called the Unwilling, who stayed in Middle Earth, and Melian was the Queen, and her husband was Thingol, and their kingdom was Menegroth. Morgoth never was able to penetrate that kingdom, because of Melian's power. Beren was of men, and when he came upon Luthien, he fell in love with her. But her father said that he couldn't marry her unless he was able to provide one of the Silmarils, stolen from Morgoth's crown. Pretty much impossible! But, he did it. It would take a whole chapter of a book to tell it all, but he needed Luthien to do it. Thingol had to then honor his word. But, the point is, that even though Beren was of an inferior race, he was a great individual. Basically, an superman. They were able to marry, but Luthien died when he did. They only had one child. From that child, the hope of Middle Earth sprung forth. The journey of Earendil, was done by their grandson, and without that journey, Middle Earth would have fallen to Morgoth forever, for he came to Valinor, and begged for help from the Vala. After that, the children from Beren and Luthien's union had to choose their fate. Elrond chose the Elves. His brother (I don't remember his name) chose the fate of Men. As a gift, the Vala bestowed on them longer life then normal Men. If you read the Appendixes of the Return of the King, you'll find out that Aragorn was over 80 years old when the LOTR took place. Looked pretty good didn't he? ;)

My point is, that extraordinary men were worthy enough to love those better then themselves racially. Elrond Half-Elven is of three races. But he is such a trustworthy character that he has one of the three rings of power. Not always, but, sometimes something good can come of something that we would normally frown on.

[Arrow Cross]

I prefer Half-Elven or Half-Elf:)
Which incidentally brings us back here, Mr. "Racial Preservationist". :cool:

[Pallantides]

I'd be more worried if Arwen Married a Uruk Hai.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/03/africa_enl_1063967571/img/1.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Here we go. Even on forums where the posters generally agree on most topics, I like to create polls that will be debated. First in the series, we deal with J.R.R. Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings', a much-popular fantasy setting in which several different species coexist (or don't) with humanity on a continent called 'Middle Earth'. One of these species - inspired from Northen European folklore - called the 'Elves' are slim, agile, long-eared creatures with unlimited natural lifespan - I hardly need to describe them. According to Tolkien, these creatures can succesfully interbreed with Humans, though it only happened 3 times in history, these stories are heavily promoted and popularized in his books(LotR and The Silmarils) in the forms of "heroic" inter-species love stories, e.g.: Aragorn and Arwen.

Now, it is obviously "just fantasy", but so is anything that comes out of Hollywood, regardless of the genre, these stories can have great impact on the targeted audience, especially if it's the youth, as in this case. Peter Jackson's famous and well-made movie of the same title further emphasized and heroized this love story and its meaning: your blood doesn't matter, your culture doesn't matter, your traditions don't matter, only love matters.

The paralels between this and real-life miscegenation are quite obvious, skin colour is meaningless in this context. And so is the agenda which it advances, love without responsibility towards one's own blood. If some people hold such stories in high regard as part of the Aryan culture, then we're rotten and doomed indeed.

What do you think? Elaborate your choices.

There have always been Half-Elves in the whole history of the fantasy genre so it's not really surprising to see the Aragorn-Elf Chick (can't remember her name) become a big part of the story.

[Pallantides]

I think Grisnakh has Nordid influences.
http://lotr.fantasy-web.net/minion/grisnakh.jpg

[Tabiti]

Misgeneration can occur only between real species :D

[Pallantides]

Misgeneration can occur only between real species :D

Elves are not real? :eek:

[Tabiti]

Elves are not real? :eek:
Sorry you should hear that bitter truth in such a painful way:(

[poiuytrewq0987]

Sorry you should hear that bitter truth in such a painful way:(

No wai, they're real as they can get. (http://portal.gmx.net/images/818/3902818,pd=1,w=533,mxw=600,mxh=400,h=400.jpg)Thoug h I don't really recommend clicking on the link if you're not into chicks. :D
(http://portal.gmx.net/images/818/3902818,pd=1,w=533,mxw=600,mxh=400,h=400.jpg)

[Pallantides]

There is miscegenation in Norse mythology aswell, then again the Norse were notorious for their miscegenating ways, so it's not really that odd.

I wonder how many Lappish, Finnic, Slavic and Celtic women were shagged by horny vikings.


Sorry you should hear that bitter truth in such a painful way:(

:(

[Tabiti]

No wai, they're real as they can get. (http://portal.gmx.net/images/818/3902818,pd=1,w=533,mxw=600,mxh=400,h=400.jpg)Thoug h I don't really recommend clicking on the link if you're not into chicks. :D
(http://portal.gmx.net/images/818/3902818,pd=1,w=533,mxw=600,mxh=400,h=400.jpg)
That one looks an offspring of human and goat, so could be real:rolleyes:

[poiuytrewq0987]

That one looks an offspring of human and goat, so could be real:rolleyes:

Just a little make up and we've got an elf running around. :D

[Tabiti]

Miscegenation is found in many mythologies - when gods and god-liked mixed with the wild people and create nowadays humans;)

[Absinthe]

According to Greek Mythology, "my son" Perseus is also a product of miscegenation between a human and a God.
So I guess that makes me a r@c3 tr8tor by default :D

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Tabiti
Miscegenation is found in many mythologies - when gods and god-liked mixed with the wild people and create nowadays humans

Your comment comes close to how Tolkien perceived the question of intermarriage between Elves and men (as an aside only a homo wouldn’t want to father hordes of pointy eared bastards with Liv Tyler).

From The Letters of J. R. R Tolkien

The contact of Men and Elves already foreshadows the history of the later Ages, and a recurrent theme is the idea that in Men (as they now are) there is a strand of “blood” and inheritance, derived from the Elves, and that the art and poetry of Men is largely dependent on it, or modified by it.

The Elder children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men), and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, amongst whom it was the only real claim to “nobility”.

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring…..Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this “history”, because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them…..

The Elves seemingly display the superhuman/divine quality of Homeric Gods, although somewhat nicer. We could argue that the Elves represent the higher qualities of Man, Aragorn’s marriage to Arwen is his union with the higher self, in the same way that the God-Men hero’s of ancient myth display both the quality of divinity and of mortality.

[Bloodeagle]

According to Greek Mythology, "my son" Perseus is also a product of miscegenation between a human and a God.
So I guess that makes me a r@c3 tr8tor by default :D

As were the Nephilim!
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of
God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became
mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and
we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4632/nephilim2cw4.jpg

[Baron Samedi]

Hey guys!

It's a fucking fantasy story!

Just in case you didn't know.....

[Grey]

She loses her immortality and hence her status as an elf and joins him in his lower caste. That simple. The elves aren't "defiled" and the humans gain a bit of better blood.

[Sol Invictus]

Hey guys!

It's a fucking fantasy story!

Just in case you didn't know.....

BvTNyKIGXiI

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Ares
It's a fucking fantasy story!

Technically it’s classed as mythopoeia.:D

Mythopoeia is created mythology, Tolkien invented the term (Middle Earth is our earth but several thousands years before recorded history) but there are earlier examples, William Blake is one, Battlestar Galactica is a recent example. Some people class Star Wars but I’m not sure if it is given that it has no connection (that I am aware of) with real earth history.

[Baron Samedi]

Technically it’s classed as mythopoeia.:D

Mythopoeia is created mythology, Tolkien invented the term (Middle Earth is our earth but several thousands years before recorded history) but there are earlier examples, William Blake is one, Battlestar Galactica is a recent example. Some people class Star Wars but I’m not sure if it is given that it has no connection (that I am aware of) with real earth history.

It's still bullshit to bitch over race-mixing concerning it.

Are there elves in real life? If so, let me know so I can race-mix with them!

[Psychonaut]

Are there elves in real life?

Yes (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14784&highlight=classify)


If so, let me know so I can race-mix with them!

Good luck, brah! :D

[Beorn]

(Is Ares aware this is a discussion forum?)

[Arrow Cross]

Ah yes... nice results. The cute-yet-stinky flower of hypocrisy. "Preservationists" and "anti-miscegenators" (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/group.php?groupid=88). :lmao

[Puddle of Mudd]

I would be embarrassed to have a thread like this under my username.

[Matritensis]

Tolkien was an intellectual antifa

Tolkien lived in a world that doesn't exist anymore,so putting him in the context of modern culture and society really doesn't work...maybe you should read the books first.As a Catholic though,of course he was anti fascist.Anti communist too,i'd guess.

[Arrow Cross]

It'd also seem most people around here are readily shocked and horrified by the concept of an inferior jungle negro taking their women and contaminating their gene pool, but in a hypothetical scenario, would have no problem at all doing the same with beings of similarly superior gene stock.

Dontcha hurl stones at the Seals and Tigers, pharisees! :cool:

[Pallantides]

It'd also seem most people around here are readily shocked and horrified by the concept of an inferior jungle negro taking their women and contaminating their gene pool


In that context I think it would make more sense discussing the 'Half-Orcs' or the dwindling of Numenorean blood by mixing with the lesser races of man.


Corsair of Umbar
http://www.middleearth.me.uk/usability/pics/LOTRPhotos/CorsiarsUmbar.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsairs_of_Umbar

Gondor later conquered Umbar, but lost it to the Haradrim soon after. By the time of the War of the Ring, the Corsairs had mixed with the Haradrim, becoming a mixed people whose Númenórean blood was mostly gone.

[Murphy]

Don't fuck with Tolkien.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Matritensis
Tolkien lived in a world that doesn't exist anymore,so putting him in the context of modern culture and society really doesn't work...maybe you should read the books first.As a Catholic though,of course he was anti fascist.Anti communist too,i'd guess.

Tolkien had a deep love for England and dedicated his life to the study, preservation and advancement of its culture, and, quite rightly, had no time for the idiocy of National Socialism, Communism or any other two bit statist philosophy based on half arsed theories and dubious ideologies (he also detested the emerging globalism of his time). From his letters I find a deep love for his people, country and its heritage. Personally I would imagine Tolkien would have been disgusted by anything that smacked of "multiculturalism" or the "equality" i.e. conformism to the lowest denominator, in that he was quintessentially English.

[The Ripper]

I highly doubt it was Tolkien's aim to promote large-scale miscegenation. In fact I know it was not his intention. I have no political stand on the miscenegation that goes on in Middle Earth. :cool:

[Óttar]

They're all white elves and dwarves. One group is Finnish, the other is Welsh. And they don't pork the Nazgul or the Orcr.

[Pallantides]

They're all white elves and dwarves. One group is Finnish, the other is Welsh. And they don't pork the Nazgul or the Orcr.

I thought Dwarves were Hebrew atleast their language sounds that way.:p

The Elvish langauages are based on Finnish and Welsh correct?

[Don]

Without any shadow of doubt, Pallantides is one of those multicultural mixes as I said in his "classify me".

Dwarves have some jewish personality traits, as the gold greed, but in general they are related better to slavic cultures in my opinion, as Warhammer seems to point.

Anyway, he insisted that his hobbits where based in the humans of modern ages, including himself, who preffer their current comfortable and sure lives than deeds and adventures.

[Pallantides]

Without any shadow of doubt, Pallantides is one of those multicultural mixes as I said in his "classify me".



Excuse me?

A quick look on my Genetic profile proves you wrong. :rolleyes2:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12177


These are indicative of all-Euro ancestry. As explained above, the S. Asian numbers refer to long-ago mixing, not anything recent. The negative Mideast number is significant: it seems to be indicative of people living near the shores of the Baltic.

You seem to think I am mixed with Asians or other non-Europeas, wich I have proven have no basis in reality, so I'm sorry but I don't take this as a joke.

[Don]

http://warexparty.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/chinito.jpg
OK!

My words:

Pallantides is one of those multicultural mixes

Whatever, you have -reading in context- problems.

Try harder, champion of (eastern) lothlorien.

I will give you a tip:
Take a look at the tittles of the thread, it helps to find the context. ;)

In our case: "Do you perceive the love story between Aragorn and Arwen(...)"

Clearer now?

Now look at my words again...
... Yes, good boy.
:)

[Eldritch]

The Elvish langauages are based on Finnish and Welsh correct?

Sindarin is based on Welsh, Old Norse and Old English, Quenya on Finnish, Greek and Latin.

[Magister Eckhart]

Technically it would be inter-species breeding, not interracial breeding.

At any rate, the Elves are god-men, and Aragorn is a man. If anything the figure we are supposed to identify as one of us (human Aragorn) is breeding upwards with supernatural beings and creating god-like offspring. It's very much like the stories of the angelic and heavenly creatures taking human wives in Hebrew myths.

I don't see anything negative in this at all, far less some sort of pro-miscegenation propaganda. Indeed, if it is miscegenation, it is of a sort that many devotees of the Aryan cult would approve and have approved whole-heartedly (e.g. Liebenfels theozoa).

[Psychonaut]

It's very much like the stories of the angelic and heavenly creatures taking human wives in Hebrew myths.

Hebrew myths... :tsk:

The closer analog, given Tolkien's souces would likely be the archetypal European story of the Fae Wife (e.g. Brynhild/Sigurd, Tamlin, etc.).

[Joe McCarthy]

In reading the books some years ago I noticed anti-miscegenation themes, if anything. But with Tolkien it's always tempting to read things into the story.

[Magister Eckhart]

Hebrew myths... :tsk:

The closer analog, given Tolkien's souces would likely be the archetypal European story of the Fae Wife (e.g. Brynhild/Sigurd, Tamlin, etc.).

I don't see what there is to shake one's head about. "It's rather like" is not "He got the idea from" - I merely thought of that analogy because I had been re-reading my work on Liebenfels.

Besides, as a Christian and a well-read man Tolkien no doubt would have been informed by the Hebrew myths. The fact is that the inter-breeding of god-like beings or gods with humans to create god-men is a common theme in the mythos of ancient people. Indeed, it's a theme that, one could argue, carries over into the mystical understanding of female religious life in Christianity ("bride of Christ").

[Psychonaut]

The fact is that the inter-breeding of god-like beings or gods with humans to create god-men is a common theme in the mythos of ancient people. Indeed, it's a theme that, one could argue, carries over into the mystical understanding of female religious life in Christianity ("bride of Christ").

Nah, the dynamic of the [divine female + human male] and [divine male + human female] stories is completely different. In the latter, the conclusion is usually the birth of a culture-hero. In the former, the conclusion is usually tragedy for both parties.

[Humanophage]

No, because Tolkien's elves are white, and here is why.

It makes as much sense to speak of elves in Middle-Earth as a separate biological racial group or a species as to call gods a race or a species. Humans and elves supposedly do not share a common biological history, yet half-elves remain fertile. But it is silly to directly apply biology to myth, as it takes no note of biologal laws and contradicts them.

If we are to draw parallels with real myth, then one can say that gods do have a race, and their race depends entirely on their phenotype. To determine their race, one reduces the humanoid mythological creature to a human and considers the features relevant to race (i.e., not unnatural features like pointy ears or animal parts, but skin colour, nose and lip shape, etc.) For instance, Thor is described as a Nordid or a Dalo-Faelid, and so he is white. He is, so to say, a white god - likewise, the features of Tolkien's elves identify them as white.

Not all gods and creatures in a European culture are white - for example, dragons in human shape in Slavic cultures are usually Turanid. Polytheism is often henotheist, and accepted gods of other cultures are seen as racially foreign. So with the elves, they can be of different races. There is a recent malicious trend in fantasy illustrations to depict them as exotic, but in a realistic way, which is a promotion of multiracialism.

Here is an illustration. First the white (Tolkien's), then the non-white* elf.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Humanophage/galadriel.jpg http://www.elainecunningham.com/DotD%20cover.jpg

* In the past, dark elves used to be depicted as whites with an unnatural skin colour that could be ignored.

[Pallantides]

Drow:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070618035637/forgottenrealms/images/0/06/Drizzt_Do%27Urden_-_Brom.jpg
http://dinjagames.com/images/drow%20ranger.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/forgottenrealms/images/6/64/Valsharess.jpg
Drow are evil Elves with blackish blue or purple skin from D&D, but their features are closest 'European' or 'Eurasian'.



Besides Drow are just the Dark Elves in the D&D setting, other fantasy settings have different looking Dark Elves:
http://www.tvkon.com/images/gaming/08/01/Warhammer-Online_Dark-Elf-Disciple.wmv/00000003.jpg
http://www.oblivion.gr/forums/tp_articlesimg/Races/darkelf.gif

[Humanophage]

Pre-D&D3E drow used to be depicted as European, now they are often depicted as Eurasian. It applies to all elves in AD&D/D&D: sun elves, wood elves, moon elves, etc. E.g., AD&D (http://www.o-love.net/realms/covers_large/pic_oth3.jpg), but D&D (http://www.elf-life.narod.ru/dndgallery.htm). The elf I used in the sample is merely very blatantly non-white, frankly Amerindian, because of her features. It does not matter what sub-race of elves she is. If Tolkien's elves were like this, then Aragon-Arwen would be miscegenation.

[Beorn]

I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.Tolkien.

Tolkien would be slightly amused that my children now associate the flag of Rohan with Anglo-Saxons. With that said, my children also call security guards in shops 'Daleks'.

Oh, the perils of having a sci-fi loving father :P

[Cato]

Aragorn had elvish ancestors to begin with. And it's also a blasted fantasy series.

[Pallantides]

Pre-D&D3E drow used to be depicted as European, now they are often depicted as Eurasian. It applies to all elves in AD&D/D&D: sun elves, wood elves, moon elves, etc. E.g., AD&D (http://www.o-love.net/realms/covers_large/pic_oth3.jpg), but D&D (http://www.elf-life.narod.ru/dndgallery.htm). The elf I used in the sample is merely very blatantly non-white, frankly Amerindian, because of her features. It does not matter what sub-race of elves she is. If Tolkien's elves were like this, then Aragon-Arwen would be miscegenation.


Negro elves look silly... like that one portrait in Neverwinter Nights.



But majority of modern illustrations of Elves to my eyes look more European than anything else though.

[Magister Eckhart]

Pre-D&D3E drow used to be depicted as European, now they are often depicted as Eurasian. It applies to all elves in AD&D/D&D: sun elves, wood elves, moon elves, etc. E.g., AD&D (http://www.o-love.net/realms/covers_large/pic_oth3.jpg), but D&D (http://www.elf-life.narod.ru/dndgallery.htm). The elf I used in the sample is merely very blatantly non-white, frankly Amerindian, because of her features. It does not matter what sub-race of elves she is. If Tolkien's elves were like this, then Aragon-Arwen would be miscegenation.

They've gone nuts with the types of elves they have now - probably to pander to the "your game racis'" crowd, just like they pandered to the feminists and created strong-minded, frankly lesbian at times, female protagonists instead of the original damsel-in-distress trope that was far closer to the Medieval European roots of the genre.

If I weren't so invested in the 3.5 system, I'd probably be a 1.0 purist like several of my friends who introduced me to the game were.

[BeerBaron]

I suppose it is, but the elves were a superior race so the humans should see it as a step up

[Magister Eckhart]

I suppose it is, but the elves were a superior race so the humans should see it as a step up

When I DMed for the RPG club at my undergrad, I designed a campaign setting in which the Elves were essentially the Aryans of Nordicist myths. I even called the Capital "Oultim Tyl" (after ultima Thule). The language I designed for them was a form of quasi-Greek in which they referred to themselves as the Hyperboroi. It seemed to me the logical place to take the notion of the Elves being a "superior race".

[Osprey]

Here we go. Even on forums where the posters generally agree on most topics, I like to create polls that will be debated. First in the series, we deal with J.R.R. Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings', a much-popular fantasy setting in which several different species coexist (or don't) with humanity on a continent called 'Middle Earth'. One of these species - inspired from Northen European folklore - called the 'Elves' are slim, agile, long-eared creatures with unlimited natural lifespan - I hardly need to describe them. According to Tolkien, these creatures can succesfully interbreed with Humans, though it only happened 3 times in history, these stories are heavily promoted and popularized in his books(LotR and The Silmarils) in the forms of "heroic" inter-species love stories, e.g.: Aragorn and Arwen.

Now, it is obviously "just fantasy", but so is anything that comes out of Hollywood, regardless of the genre, these stories can have great impact on the targeted audience, especially if it's the youth, as in this case. Peter Jackson's famous and well-made movie of the same title further emphasized and heroized this love story and its meaning: your blood doesn't matter, your culture doesn't matter, your traditions don't matter, only love matters.

The paralels between this and real-life miscegenation are quite obvious, skin colour is meaningless in this context. And so is the agenda which it advances, love without responsibility towards one's own blood. If some people hold such stories in high regard as part of the Aryan culture, then we're rotten and doomed indeed.

What do you think? Elaborate your choices.

[Supreme American]

Such scenes are intentionally made to promote race mixing and should be banned. Media always demand corporations be regulated because of their abuses, and that should also apply to media.

Bring back obscenity laws.

[Osprey]

Here we go. Even on forums where the posters generally agree on most topics, I like to create polls that will be debated. First in the series, we deal with J.R.R. Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings', a much-popular fantasy setting in which several different species coexist (or don't) with humanity on a continent called 'Middle Earth'. One of these species - inspired from Northen European folklore - called the 'Elves' are slim, agile, long-eared creatures with unlimited natural lifespan - I hardly need to describe them. According to Tolkien, these creatures can succesfully interbreed with Humans, though it only happened 3 times in history, these stories are heavily promoted and popularized in his books(LotR and The Silmarils) in the forms of "heroic" inter-species love stories, e.g.: Aragorn and Arwen.
What do you think? Elaborate your choices.

Elves generally were superior looking and more intelligent than humans. But a blond blue eyed Human Prince with an IQ of 140 could take a 'normal' elven woman as his wife.

[The Ripper]

Tolkien, the traditional catholic, an "intellectual antifa"? A bit over the top. :D

lvZtoVIECuo

2:02. ;)

[Arrow Cross]

Elves generally were superior looking and more intelligent than humans. But a blond blue eyed Human Prince with an IQ of 140 could take a 'normal' elven woman as his wife.
Oh, that's cool, so all Average Joe's fair little daughter has to find is a nigger with a university degree. Love and brains are the only things that matter. How romantic!

Also:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g109/lecokev/ThreadNecro.gif

[Mary]

Reading this... makes me feel like a man.

[Osprey]

Oh, that's cool, so all Average Joe's fair little daughter has to find is a nigger with a university degree. Love and brains are the only things that matter. How romantic!

Also:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g109/lecokev/ThreadNecro.gif
Think of
Niggers as Orcs.
Whites as Humans.
Elves as Halstatt Nordics.

[morski]

I didn't bother to read the whole thread, but as someone else elaborated in the begining both Aragorn and Arwen have Elven and Human blood, so they are already a product of miscagenation.

[Flintlocke]

I'd totally sex Arwen like crazy but she has two kids and might be a little "loose" xD

[CelticViking]

The Elves are like Nymphs in Greek Mythology and other god like creatures.
Arwen has Man ancestors and Aragorn was not a normal Man, he was a Tall Númenórean/Elendili. In European Mythology: Nymphs, Valkyrie, and Gods have children with Humans.
In the Lord of the Rings, the Elf languages are based on Celtic or Finnish.
Quenya, was inspired by Finnish and Sindarin based on Welsh.
The Men were inspired by Vikings and Anglo Saxon and Germanic tribes.
The Wood elves are blonde and the other elves have brown hair.
So it isn't really race mixing.

[Onur]

I didn't read the whole 11 pages either but i wonder if someone said something about the mix of orcs and humans, the Uruk-Hai :)

If elves represents scandinavians and if humans are central Europeans, then who are orcs and who is the Uruk-Hai? !!!

[Benacer]

I really don't think miscegenation is normally a big deal, as the foreign element will merely fade and be absorbed throughout the generations. It surely wasn't a big issue in the time of Tolkien. The problem arises when it becomes the norm, which summed up with a high influx of immigrants has the potential effect of replacing a population.

[Jon Snow]

Ye gods, threads like this make me realize how awesome this forum used to be. Sigurd, Don, Liffrea, Psychonaut, and Magister Eckhart seem like they were absolutely superb posters. Where'd they all go? :icon_neutral:

[Arrow Cross]

The Elves are like Nymphs in Greek Mythology and other god like creatures.
Arwen has Man ancestors and Aragorn was not a normal Man, he was a Tall Númenórean/Elendili. In European Mythology: Nymphs, Valkyrie, and Gods have children with Humans.
In the Lord of the Rings, the Elf languages are based on Celtic or Finnish.
Quenya, was inspired by Finnish and Sindarin based on Welsh.
The Men were inspired by Vikings and Anglo Saxon and Germanic tribes.
The Wood elves are blonde and the other elves have brown hair.
So it isn't really race mixing.
Colours, pigments are nothing. Genes are everything.

http://www.slightlywarped.com/crapfactory/curiosities/images/albino5.jpg

As hard as you people try to euphemize this with "symbolism", in the story's universe, such unions boil down to the mixing of extremely different genes. Though I'm sure they'd love to, Nordics hardly live thousands of years, or see in the dark, etc.

If a movie character's head is blown off by a shotgun, it's not a "symbol for the expression of the gunman's autism", it's a character's head getting fuckin' blown off. :D

Additionally, the female's longevity is sacrificed by the act of her staying, further making this "heroic", pedestal pidgeon miscegenation story suicidal. Part of a superior species, who willingly lowers herself and her offspring to mundanity, discarding her very birthrights, dying liked a tamed, mortal wretch while the rest of her kind sails off to a higher civilization and immortality.

There certainly are vibes and parallels in this, with, or without intention. As somebody else said, the movies only increased the emphasis on this "forbidden love" cliché. My point is simply that it fits right in the line of multiculturalist propaganda, because by finding two good-looking characters both played by established White actors, it manages to convey the message that you can throw blood, heritage and responsibility aside for the sake of sentimental emotions without having to be as blatant as to pair the female with a Negro.

The subtle message to the youth gets through just fine. They don't even have to think about it.

[Tropico]

I think that in the long run culture and blood don't matter. Humans have been mating with each mother for centuries. The modern day Iberians aren't culturally the same as the prehistoric Iberians, Puerto Rican culture isn't the same as it was 200 years ago. No culture was the same now as it was a century ago, or 2 centuries ago, etc. Culture is ever changing. "Blood responsibility" is a useless notion that has no real meaning in genetics. As a species humans are doing more than fine. Traditions are just traditions, they are material, culture is material. Love is a real biological response. From a scientific perspective all nature cares about is replacing and enhancing the population, creating mutations and mixes in the genetic code to ensure survival, which miscegenation does, to an extent.

[sean]

Lord of the Rings is actually the future of Earth where there is war between those who segregated and kept their culture versus mongrels who don't have heritage/history, are stupid and easily manipulated and used by liberal elite to gain power. When I was a child, I always thought that the elves in Lord of the Rings were retarded pussy babies when they decided to say "Fuck Middle Earth, it's time to get off this wild ride."

But as an adult, I get it now. They created a culture and a civilisation and tried to progress with rationality but then they splintered into groups like liberals, and fell victim to greed. Soon, race-mixing occured, and then they were getting outbred by orcs and and other shit races. Finally, the other races starting screeching about elvish responsibilities and demanding they help them because they were owed.


One of these species - inspired from Northen European folklore - called the 'Elves' are slim, agile, long-eared creatures with unlimited natural lifespan - I hardly need to describe them. According to Tolkien, these creatures can succesfully interbreed with Humans, though it only happened 3 times in history, these stories are heavily promoted and popularized in his books(LotR and The Silmarils) in the forms of "heroic" inter-species love stories, e.g.: Aragorn and Arwen. What do you think?

Actually Tolkien understood miscegenation. If the elves had the liberal mind, and interbred with lesser races en masse, their beauty and grace would be robbed from Middle Earth. The only way it could be closer to reality is if Sauron encouraged race-mixing between the orcs and elves.

The movie-series had some unintentional anti-globalist messages for instance (orcs and goblins are basically negroes and latinos, haradrim are Muslims, foul orcs and uruk-hai are created by breeding men and other creatures together, it warns against the evils of mass media/propaganda (palantír), mordor is basically the archetypal evil communist state, female characters are traditional and honourable, Éowyn bravely rides to battle because of her love for Aragorn and Théoden etc.)

Also, the elves only interbred 3 times. Once to a demi-god (breeding up), once to an epic hero of men who's pedigree had proven value as well as the hero's individual achievements, and lastly was Aragorn and Arwen, Aragorn being a descendant of the elf-demi god hybrid and Arwen technically being half-elven.

The elves were truly wise. This is why Aragorn was required to become both King of Arnor and Gondor.

[PaleoEuropean]

They are two different species not two different races.

[PaleoEuropean]

^^^

Also the Elves call the humans afterborn, because they were created separately long after the Elves. Elves and Wizards are quasi angelic figures.

[TheOldNorth]

they are fantasy races people, the mixing of elf and man is practically the same as god and man in mythology. Is Herakles miscegenation? Is Achilles? Is Sigurd or CuChulainn? The answer is no. If you guys knew the story you would know that in the end Arwen chooses to become human, because she is descended of Beren and Luthien, the man prince, and elven princess, who's offspring could choose which they wanted to be, hell Elrond's brother (or was it uncle? I can't remember) is Aragorn's distant ancestor who chose to be mortal and became the first king of the Numenorians (the predecessors to the Gondorians)...

[Voskos]

Shit's too old. I don't even remember the plot.

[PaleoEuropean]

they are fantasy races people, the mixing of elf and man is practically the same as god and man in mythology. Is Herakles miscegenation? Is Achilles? Is Sigurd or CuChulainn? The answer is no. If you guys knew the story you would know that in the end Arwen chooses to become human, because she is descended of Beren and Luthien, the man prince, and elven princess, who's offspring could choose which they wanted to be, hell Elrond's brother (or was it uncle? I can't remember) is Aragorn's distant ancestor who chose to be mortal and became the first king of the Numenorians (the predecessors to the Gondorians)...

If I remember correctly Tolkein or his son stated that the series was not based off any real world events or ideology. The great thing about a piece of literature is that the reader can fill in the blanks or take a completely different message than the other person. Which is why there was Soviet prints of his books. A good example is how 90% of action movies can be seen as derivatives of the Odyssey or the Odyssey can be argued a derivative of the story of Jonah etc. A good trope leaves things to the imagination and follows an interesting and relatable narrative.

Reminds me of a post where someone made the argument that nobody is creative because it has all been done before and originality is the sinew of creativity which is absurd. Creativity 90% of the time is taking something old and turning it into something fresh. A small change in detail and perspective can change the entire meaning of it. The movies Star Wars was inspired by and essentially copied story wise and even to some extent aesthetically didn't change its magnanimous creativity and re visioning. You can't look at true art through a single lens.

One final example of my opinion is how the series can be looked at from a communist perspective, the weak, drunken bottom class hobbit rises through his chains of oppression to save the world from the oppressive fascist Sauran (upper class) and the greedy, glutenous, indifferent and often traitorous men (Middle Class). The narrative is written in the mind of the reader for the series.

[TheOldNorth]

If I remember correctly Tolkein or his son stated that the series was not based off any real world events or ideology. The great thing about a piece of literature is that the reader can fill in the blanks or take a completely different message than the other person. Which is why there was Soviet prints of his books. A good example is how 90% of action movies can be seen as derivatives of the Odyssey or the Odyssey can be argued a derivative of the story of Jonah etc. A good trope leaves things to the imagination and follows an interesting and relatable narrative.

Reminds me of a post where someone made the argument that nobody is creative because it has all been done before and originality is the sinew of creativity which is absurd. Creativity 90% of the time is taking something old and turning it into something fresh. A small change in detail and perspective can change the entire meaning of it. The movies Star Wars was inspired by and essentially copied story wise and even to some extent aesthetically didn't change its magnanimous creativity and re visioning. You can't look at true art through a single lens.

One final example of my opinion is how the series can be looked at from a communist perspective, the weak, drunken bottom class hobbit rises through his chains of oppression to save the world from the oppressive fascist Sauran (upper class) and the greedy, glutenous, indifferent and often traitorous men (Middle Class). The narrative is written in the mind of the reader for the series.

interesting, makes me wonder if the modern russian copies are different to the old ones.
Though JRR Tolkien and his son says there is no outside influences, this is unlikely to me, I think they just didn't want people comparing it to what came before and to see it as its own thing. For example the elves remind me of Irish or Welsh Tuatha De Danann / Tylwyth teg. The dwarves and elves as a concept however come from Norse myth, and the hierarchy of the world with the Valar and Eru on top remind me of the the order of Catholicism mixed with paganism.

[PaleoEuropean]

interesting, makes me wonder if the modern russian copies are different to the old ones

I am not sure, maybe one of the Russian members knows or can find out. The Soviet version had illustrations and stuff, pretty neat.

[PaleoEuropean]

interesting, makes me wonder if the modern russian copies are different to the old ones

They made a movie too, gonna get really baked and watch it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekbJdOGAxPQ

[TheOldNorth]

I am not sure, maybe one of the Russian members knows or can find out. The Soviet version had illustrations and stuff, pretty neat.

my dad has an old copy with some neat illustrations (obviously in English)

[Videx]

I haven't read it yet, only watched. But as far as I know Elrond is already only half-elf. So Arwen is not pure elf by any means, also Aragorn has a prominent human bloodline. And their children would not look too exotic to either of them. Therefore I would say no problem here :D

Interesting, that some might focus on this part of the story. I only heard that lefties accused Lotr of racism.