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British and Proud
03-19-2009, 10:05 PM
The extracts below have been taken from http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

About Us

"The aim of the Ulster-Scots Agency is to promote the study, conservation, development and use of Ulster-Scots as a living language, to encourage and develop the full range of its attendant culture; and to promote an understanding of the history of the Ulster-Scots."

The Ulster-Scots Agency, or Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch as it is known in Ullans, is a relatively new but important body that aims to promote the Ulster-Scots language and culture within the island of Ireland and beyond.

The Language

Not long ago Ulster's language situation interested few but revivalists and academics. But in the past decade this has completely changed.

Rediscovery and revival of Ulster-Scots culture and language is well in progress. People are embracing the traditions of their forebears and recognising that a form of speech once used in the countryside, and unfortunately more often than not labelled "poor English" in the classroom, is a legitimate and vital part of their heritage.

While English remains the main language used by people living in Northern Ireland and in the South, the language remains as the tongue of heart and home in rural areas of County Antrim, North Down and Ards, Co. Londonderry, parts of Co. Fermanagh and Tyrone and east Donegal.

However a frequently-asked question is: is Ulster-Scots a language or a dialect? This is rather like asking whether a daisy is a flower or a weed.

Ulster-Scots is a West Germainc language, as are Dutch, Frisisan, Scots and English. Coming from the same language family as English, both Scots and Ulster-Scots share with it some vocabulary, idioms and grammar, but Ulster-Scots is now recognised as a European Regional or Minority Language.

Ulster-Scots, or Ullans is technically a variant of the lowland Scots language, or Lallans, but is now recognised separately as a European Regional Language by the UK government for the purposes of the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages.

The move to have the Scots language recognised in Scotland began early this century. Scots has been recognised by The European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages for several years before Ulster-Scots also became recognised in 1993, one year after the Ulster-Scots Language Society and Ulster-Scots Academy were formed.

Most important of all is the Good Friday Agreement of April 1998, the first official document to mention the Ulster-Scots, stating that it represents "part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland".

Culture

American Presidents
Did you know that 16 of the 41 American Presidents were Ulster-Scots or had Ulster-Scots ancestry? They are: Andrew Jackson, James Knox Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnston, Ulysses S.Grant, Chester Alan Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, George Bush and Bill Clinton! George W Bush has become the 17th American President with Ulster-Scots connections. William Jefferson Clinton is a relative of Lucas Cassidy, of Ulster Presbyterian stock, who left Co. Fermanagh for America around 1750.

And George W Bush can trace his ancestral roots back to the 18th century Scots-Irish diaspora form Ulster. Mr Bush's ancestor on his mother's side, William Gault, was a first citizen of Tennessee in 1796 and is believed to have been born somewhere in Co. Antrim.

Ulster-Scots stock
Did you know that writer Mark Twain and Hollywood film actor James Stewart are just some of the American luminaries who are descended from Ulster-Scots stock? Also included are Vice-President John C. Calhoun; poet/playwright Edgar Allen Poe; 19th century farm machine inventor Cyrus McCormick; Pittsburgh banker Andrew Mellon; frontier mountain main Kit Carson; songwriter Stephen Collins Foster, and distinguished American Civil War generals: Ulsysses S Grant, "Stonewall" Jackson: J.E.B.Stuart. Thomas Brinton McClellan, Ambrose Everett Burnside, Irvin McDowell, Daniel Smith Donelson, James Shields, Charles James Halpine and Leonidas Polk.

The Fiddle
Did you know that the fiddle was first introduced into Ireland from Scotland through its use by the Ulster-Scots?

Some more links:

http://www.ulster-scots.co.uk
http://www.ulsternation.org.uk/
http://www.scotchirish.net/

Gooding
03-20-2009, 12:36 AM
Awesome post. This looks like a proper nation within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its history should be more widely known.This is particularly true because the ancestry of many Americans from the Southern States who identify as Irish are more accurately Northern Irish, descendants of settlers from western England,Wales and Scotland who developed their own culture and identity before striking out once more to settle the frontier Appalachian Mountains.What touches Ulster touches some of us here.

British and Proud
03-20-2009, 12:40 AM
Awesome post. This looks like a proper nation within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its history should be more widely known.

Indeed it is a proper nation! This is something republicans refuse to accept - their culture and history is distinct - the Siege of Londonderry, the Battle of the Boyne, Orange Walks, Carson, Stormont, the Ulster-Scots language off the top of my head.

Loki
03-20-2009, 01:07 AM
The Ulster-Scots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people) are descended from the Lowland Scots, who are in turn largely of Anglo-Saxon derivation. Thus very Germanic to be honest.

Electronic God-Man
03-20-2009, 01:11 AM
Did you know that 16 of the 41 American Presidents were Ulster-Scots or had Ulster-Scots ancestry? They are: Andrew Jackson, James Knox Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnston, Ulysses S.Grant, Chester Alan Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, George Bush and Bill Clinton! George W Bush has become the 17th American President with Ulster-Scots connections. William Jefferson Clinton is a relative of Lucas Cassidy, of Ulster Presbyterian stock, who left Co. Fermanagh for America around 1750.


I bet even Obama has Ulster-Scots ancestry. ;)

British and Proud
03-20-2009, 01:21 AM
I bet even Obama has Ulster-Scots ancestry. ;)

I'm not sure about that! But certainly many US presidents did:


http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/photos/derry/waterside/attitudeartwork/DER05MURwashington1r.jpg

Gooding
03-20-2009, 01:22 AM
LOL, even if he doesn't, I'm sure some well paid bullshit artist "genealogist" will invent one for him.

Galloglaich
03-20-2009, 01:24 AM
The Ulster-Scots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people) are descended from the Lowland Scots, who are in turn largely of Anglo-Saxon derivation. Thus very Germanic to be honest.

It's not quite that simple. There are plenty of Scots who occupied territories in Ulster that were of Gaelic background. Many of them came in as a result of the Montgomery and Hamilton venture in 1606, just prior to the Plantation proper. Truth be told, Gaelic interaction between Ulster and Scottish Gaels predates the Plantation by centuries. In the 16th century, the Dunnyveg MacDonalds had established themselves in the Glens of Antrim and the Route. A number of these Gaelic Scots (many of whom were Presbyterian), later found themselves a part of the Ulster-Scots identity by reason of religion, even though they didn't share a direct Anglo-Saxon origin (*edit* many of the these Scots did have a Norse Germanic component in them, though...since we're addressing their Germanic-ness).

Gooding
03-20-2009, 02:26 AM
LOL, I think I'm going to get reamed for this, but I'll post it anyway.:D I look at the early American colonies as Ulster on a larger scale.Many different types of Europeans settled in Ulster..The Highland and Lowland Scottish Presbyterians, English Anglicans who farmed as well as held government and military posts, Welsh Dissenters,Reformed Germans and maybe a smattering of Dutch ( William of Orange's followers, perhaps?),Ulster Irish who converted or whose grandparents converted to one of the Protestant branches of Christianity(a minority, maybe, but present still),French Huguenots driven with their skills away from France to a country grateful to their contributions.I'm sure BritishandProud could add a couple of ethnicities to the list...

Loyalist
03-20-2009, 02:34 AM
It should be mentioned that English, Welsh, and Huguenot settlers also took up residence in Ulster during the Plantation, and have thus made a contribution to the blood of the modern day Ulster-Scots. From personal experience, tracing Ulster families to Plantation times is terribly difficult, but evidently Lowland Scots are the backbone of the people concerned, with input from the aforementioned Germanic and Celtogermanic peoples.

The disproportionate contribution made to civilization by this comparatively small ethnic group is truly remarkable, and this type of recognition, providing clear distinction from the separate, indigenous Irish people is of great importance to guarding and perpetuating this legacy.

Electronic God-Man
03-20-2009, 02:35 AM
I'm not sure about that! But certainly many US presidents did:


http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/photos/derry/waterside/attitudeartwork/DER05MURwashington1r.jpg

Here is the full quote:


"If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger."
George Washington at Valley Forge.

Haha, obviously they left out the "British tyranny" bit. The Scotch-Irish were overwhelmingly for the Revolution, not many were "Loyalist" back in those days.

Gooding
03-21-2009, 06:55 PM
The Ulster Scots (Scotch-Irish) were always devoted first and foremost to freedom:freedom to worship as they chose, freedom to choose how they shall be governed, whether it is by Westminster in Ulster or Washington,D.C. in America, freedom to defend their rights and freedom to live their lives as they see fit. I see them as our first and best examples of hard working freedom fighters..

Creeping Death
07-22-2009, 10:40 AM
Ulster-Scots is a West Germainc language
Thats it not a Celtic people as the Irish and Highland Scots, the best solution would be for this group of immigrants tom return home to England. This is the evil of multi-cultural British identity introduction of alien practices into a stable homogeneous nation.

The Lawspeaker
07-22-2009, 10:48 AM
Thats it not a Celtic people as the Irish and Highland Scots, the best solution would be for this group of immigrants tom return home to England. This is the evil of multi-cultural British identity introduction of alien practices into a stable homogeneous nation.
Perhaps. But it would perhaps be better to arrange their immigration to the United States or Canada. This way they can live in freedom, provide their new American/Canadian hosts with fresh European blood and also make sure that the Irish live in a homogenous nation again.

But this population transfer should only be carried out by their full consent. Their consent.. not of Britain and be organized by the United States and Canada. And everything should be done to make sure that their living conditions on the other side of the Atlantic will comfort their homesickness.

Creeping Death
07-22-2009, 11:05 AM
Perhaps. But it would perhaps be better to arrange their immigration to the United States or Canada. This way they can live in freedom, provide their new American/Canadian hosts with fresh European blood and also make sure that the Irish live in a homogenous nation again.

But this population transfer should only be carried out by their full consent. Their consent.. not of Britain and be organized by the United States and Canada. And everything should be done to make sure that their living conditions on the other side of the Atlantic will comfort their homesickness.
That would be the best thing for the British population in Ulster (part of) they would be more at home in North America with their quacky form of religion which is quite normal in America. I think if each family was offered a house in America or Canada with say a $100,000 resettlement fee that would make them all leave. That is what the Israeli goverment paid (our money to begin with) the Jewish squatters in Gaza to leave.

Loyalist
07-22-2009, 01:39 PM
That would be the best thing for the British population in Ulster (part of) they would be more at home in North America with their quacky form of religion which is quite normal in America. I think if each family was offered a house in America or Canada with say a $100,000 resettlement fee that would make them all leave. That is what the Israeli goverment paid (our money to begin with) the Jewish squatters in Gaza to leave.

I much prefer the idea of Irish Republicans on coffin ships; give Ireland back to the Protestants. :thumb001:

Beorn
07-22-2009, 01:39 PM
Thankfully the Irish have more backbone than the Jews.

Creeping Death
07-22-2009, 06:02 PM
I much prefer the idea of Irish Republicans on coffin ships; give Ireland back to the Protestants. :thumb001:Give what back, you admitted here that the Irish were indigenous.

indigenous Irish people is of great importance to guarding and perpetuating this legacyI can now hold you to that because that is the whole basis of my argument for Irish preservation being good for European preservation and the warning of immigrant subcultures being planted inside homogeneous countries.

Goidelic
07-22-2009, 06:10 PM
Gaelic Irish Protestants also intermarried into the Ulster Scots gene pool as well, hence some of the native Irish sounding surnames within the lineage.

Loyalist
07-22-2009, 06:16 PM
Give what back, you admitted here that the Irish were indigenous.

I'm also a firm believer in the idea that superior peoples have the right to conquer and subjugate lower groups. What better way to put that into action than placing Reformed Anglo-Scots in a leadership roll over an island of classless, violent alcoholics?

Creeping Death
07-22-2009, 06:18 PM
The Ulster-Scots Agency, or Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch
"Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch"
Sounds like street Nigger talk 'Da Hood!', typical example of a the damage to a language an immigrant does.

The Fiddle
Did you know that the fiddle was first introduced into Ireland from Scotland through its use by the Ulster-Scots?
What a load grade a Shit the fiddle came into Scotland from Ireland from the Donegal fiddle tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donegal_fiddle_tradition). The fiddle has been part of Donegal hundreds of years before British squatters arrived in either Celtic Ireland and Scotland.

Skandi
07-22-2009, 06:31 PM
Any bowed string musical instrument may be informally called a fiddle, regardless of the kind of music being played with it. Violins or other members of the violin family are often affectionately referred to by their players as "my fiddle".

The bowed string instrument first appeared in India circa 3000 BCE,


An excavation below a house in Christchurch Road in Dublin during the 18thC uncovered what is said to be the oldest actual bow known in Europe, dating from the 11thC, along with a medieval fiddle. The bow is of dogwood, and has an animal-head carving at the tip.
By 1674 the fiddle was well established; Richard Head wrote that in Ireland "in every field a fiddle, and the lasses footing it till they were all of a foam " Initially this would have been the medieval fiddle, but eventually the standard violin was introduced, probably via the Ulster Scots.more (http://www.fiddlingaround.co.uk/ireland/irishfiddling.html)

So the modern fiddle probably comes from the scots but the Irish already had their own version before hand. The Scots fiddle seems to have been related to the norse and Icelandic versions.

Creeping Death
07-22-2009, 06:45 PM
I'm also a firm believer in the idea that superior peoples have the right to conquer and subjugate lower groups. What better way to put that into action than placing Reformed Anglo-Scots in a leadership roll over an island of classless, violent alcoholics?
You had better find a superior people to conquer Eire as the current crop are nigger like mimics who are attempting to steal the Irish identity as their own. Shit any fool who has seen an Orange parade knows we are dealing with North Europes version of the Albanians.

The Lawspeaker
07-22-2009, 06:48 PM
You had better find a superior people to conquer Eire as the current crop are nigger like mimics who are attempting to steal the Irish identity as their own. Shit any fool who has seen an Orange parade knows we are dealing with North Europes version of the Albanians.
Come on, Foley. Don't be too harsh alright. Guess what's keeping Ireland running ? The good old British-influenced judicial system and the British-influenced political system. The best thing the ancient Irish came up with were a bunch of Kings and clans hellbent on slaughtering each other- when there were no English around.

Creeping Death
07-22-2009, 06:57 PM
So the modern fiddle probably comes from the scots but the Irish already had their own version before hand.
Scots and the Irish are Gaels the 'Ulster Scots', is a incorrect term as they are a Germanic people Anglo Saxon in origin. The fiddle has always been a part of Irish music no squatter had anything to do with either the Irish or Scottish fiddle.

Skandi
07-22-2009, 07:03 PM
Scots and the Irish are Gaels the 'Ulster Scots', is a incorrect term as they are a Germanic people Anglo Saxon in origin. The fiddle has always been a part of Irish music no squatter had anything to do with either the Irish or Scottish fiddle.
There were no bowed instruments before a dubious reference in the 7thC which is thought to be a misstranslation, before that you had Harps and Lyres. It was not until the 17thC that the fiddle became a popular instrument in Ireland.

Creeping Death
07-22-2009, 07:10 PM
Come on, Foley. Don't be too harsh alright. Guess what's keeping Ireland running ? The good old British-influenced judicial system and the British-influenced political system.
The Dáil Éireann is elected by a proportional representation system the British in an archaic first past the post system. Ireland has a President not an arcahaic Queen.

The best thing the ancient Irish came up with were a bunch of Kings and clans hellbent on slaughtering each other
How was Ireland different from another European nation at that time then? Besides what is wrong with Clan warfare its a part of Gaelic Irish and Scottish heritage as is whiskey.

when there were no English around.
There were no English around:thumb001:

Osweo
07-22-2009, 07:13 PM
I can't believe people are talking about MOVING them. :mad: They should live in the land that has shaped them, where they belong. Those who don't like it should lump it. They won't be moved, simple as that.

Has the Borders ingredient been mentioned yet? I like that term 'God's Frontiersmen' that I've heard attached to this group of people that went from the Cheviots to Ulster and on to America. Having a great deal of Northumberland (in the stricter sense) blood, I feel some kinship myself with this ethnicity. Is the name Lamb common over there, at all?

Creeping Death
07-22-2009, 07:27 PM
There were no bowed instruments before a dubious reference in the 7thC which is thought to be a misstranslation, before that you had Harps and Lyres.
That depends on your links.

The History Of The Fiddle (http://fiddlemusic.blogspot.com/2006/07/history-of-fiddle.html)
The earliest examples of a bowed instrument and of a bow itself date from the eleventh century and were excavated in Dublin in the eighteenth century.
Eleventh century thats some 6 centuries before any Squatter landed in Ireland.

It was not until the 17thC that the fiddle became a popular instrument in Ireland.

Almost all European countries claim the invention of the violin, but none can seriously challenge the prominence of Italy in its history. The oldest surviving violin dates back to 1564 and was made by Andrea Amati, whose techniques have become the blueprints for all violin makers since. The accepted modern form of the violin, with the exception of the shape of the neck, was confirmed by 1710 thanks largely to Antonio Stradivari. It was in the early eighteenth century too, that the modern design of violin was firmly established throughout Ireland. In terms of its accepted construction, then, the fiddle is the oldest instrument in Irish traditional music. However, whereas the uilleann pipes have remained almost unchanged since its establishment in the tradition, the fiddle has undergone a process of continual development, particularly in the area of string and bow technologies.
The fiddle developed throughout Irish history.

The afore-mentioned John Neal is the first recorded Irish fiddle maker. Along with his brother, William, he began making fiddles in Dublin in the 1720s. However, there is some debate about how the instrument travelled to Ireland.
Meaning the Squatters cant substantiate any of their bullshit claims, its just their realization of the Anglo-Saxon blandness which they are attempting to distance themselves from and claim some form of racial kinship with the Irish and Scottish.

Beorn
07-22-2009, 07:42 PM
"Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch"
Sounds like street Nigger talk 'Da Hood!', typical example of a the damage to a language an immigrant does.


You had better find a superior people to conquer Eire as the current crop are nigger like mimics who are attempting to steal the Irish identity as their own. Shit any fool who has seen an Orange parade knows we are dealing with North Europes version of the Albanians.


Meaning the Squatters cant substantiate any of their bullshit claims, its just their realization of the Anglo-Saxon blandness which they are attempting to distance themselves from and claim some form of racial kinship with the Irish and Scottish.



That's quite enough of all that, thank you, Brian! I would like to refer you to a rule of the forum which you agreed to when you joined up.

[high green] 3. This is a board for people of European heritage. We will not tolerate: pro-multiculturalism, pro-miscegenation, anti-Germanic or anti-Nordic views. Views, ideas, and contributions that are hostile to Europeans or their heritage are not permitted.[/high green]

If you would kindly take it upon yourself to tone down your language towards other members who are European and live and adhere to the culture you so easily deride, then that would be lovely. :)

Skandi
07-22-2009, 09:01 PM
Meaning the Squatters cant substantiate any of their bullshit claims, its just their realization of the Anglo-Saxon blandness which they are attempting to distance themselves from and claim some form of racial kinship with the Irish and Scottish.

Find ANY post of mine that says it came from England? Oh and if you read on you will find that the bow was taken up at the SAME time in most of the British isles.

Also if you bothered to read my posts you would find that I had already posted about the find from the 11C.

Beorn
07-23-2009, 01:26 PM
Discussion of the rules taken to here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6371).

UltimatePagan
09-26-2019, 02:55 PM
I bet even Obama has Ulster-Scots ancestry. ;)

nope nope nope

The Lawspeaker
09-30-2019, 11:07 AM
The Dáil Éireann is elected by a proportional representation system the British in an archaic first past the post system. Ireland has a President not an arcahaic Queen.

How was Ireland different from another European nation at that time then? Besides what is wrong with Clan warfare its a part of Gaelic Irish and Scottish heritage as is whiskey.

There were no English around:thumb001:

In other words: the Irish inherited a functioning system (which is what the British system, for all its ills, is: a functioning system of law, order, a state church (in Ireland's case: Catholicism) and a reasonably ordered democracy) and pissed it up against the wall. Much like the "low taxes so easy money" boom of the 1980s-2000s. PR is a dreadful system that gives far too much power to the cities (a.k.a the Left) which explains why Ireland is going through its transition to multiculti hellhole even faster than a country like such as Sweden where the transition took 40 years - it takes the Irish under 10.

The fact is that England and France were the first organised states in mediaeval Europe and perpetual civil war has never led to anything productive.

Grace O'Malley
09-30-2019, 11:45 AM
In other words: the Irish inherited a functioning system (which is what the British system, for all its ills, is: a functioning system of law, order, a state church (in Ireland's case: Catholicism) and a reasonably ordered democracy) and pissed it up against the wall. Much like the "low taxes so easy money" boom of the 1980s-2000s. PR is a dreadful system that gives far too much power to the cities (a.k.a the Left) which explains why Ireland is going through its transition to multiculti hellhole even faster than a country like such as Sweden where the transition took 40 years - it takes the Irish under 10.

The fact is that England and France were the first organised states in mediaeval Europe and perpetual civil war has never led to anything productive.

Ireland had their own ancient system called the Brehon Laws. They would have developed themselves without English interference. If anyone reads Irish history Britain was a hindrance to Ireland and did not help with any development. They put all industry in the north of the country. Even when Ireland left the UK Ireland was forced to pay a portion of British Imperial debt. Ireland didn't benefit from British colonialism and any neutral reading Irish history would have to agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

Creoda
09-30-2019, 11:48 AM
In other words: the Irish inherited a functioning system (which is what the British system, for all its ills, is: a functioning system of law, order, a state church (in Ireland's case: Catholicism) and a reasonably ordered democracy) and pissed it up against the wall. Much like the "low taxes so easy money" boom of the 1980s-2000s. PR is a dreadful system that gives far too much power to the cities (a.k.a the Left) which explains why Ireland is going through its transition to multiculti hellhole even faster than a country like such as Sweden where the transition took 40 years - it takes the Irish under 10.

The fact is that England and France were the first organised states in mediaeval Europe and perpetual civil war has never led to anything productive.
Feels good to correct a 10 year old post from a banned member :thumb001:

The Lawspeaker
09-30-2019, 01:40 PM
Feels good to correct a 10 year old post from a banned member :thumb001:
I only now noticed his stupid post.

The Lawspeaker
09-30-2019, 01:41 PM
Ireland had their own ancient system called the Brehon Laws. They would have developed themselves without English interference. If anyone reads Irish history Britain was a hindrance to Ireland and did not help with any development. They put all industry in the north of the country. Even when Ireland left the UK Ireland was forced to pay a portion of British Imperial debt. Ireland didn't benefit from British colonialism and any neutral reading Irish history would have to agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

They may have but they didn't. Even today, Ireland inherits British law and British governmental structures.

Grace O'Malley
09-30-2019, 02:58 PM
They may have but they didn't. Even today, Ireland inherits British law and British governmental structures.

Well of course they didn't because they haven't had control of their country. If Ireland didn't have British interference they would have developed their own law and structures obviously. The Brehon laws were quite advanced for their time and Ireland was going along nicely pre-Viking years but it was not to be. They were invaded and treated as a colony by Britain and ended up losing a significant amount of their population. I think even British acknowledge the damage they did to Ireland. The Irish population was completely shanked by the British and this is being kind. Flight of the Earls, Penal Laws, removing food during the Famine etc. Not sure what favours they did the Irish?

How would Ireland have their own laws after been governed by Britain for centuries?

I don't hate Britain at all and history is history and one can't live in the past but I don't know how anyone can look at this and can say Ireland benefited from being part of the British Empire? You would really have to be one-eyed to say otherwise.

TheOldNorth
09-30-2019, 03:54 PM
I have some ulster-scots heritage

The Lawspeaker
09-30-2019, 06:59 PM
Well of course they didn't because they haven't had control of their country. If Ireland didn't have British interference they would have developed their own law and structures obviously. The Brehon laws were quite advanced for their time and Ireland was going along nicely pre-Viking years but it was not to be. They were invaded and treated as a colony by Britain and ended up losing a significant amount of their population. I think even British acknowledge the damage they did to Ireland. The Irish population was completely shanked by the British and this is being kind. Flight of the Earls, Penal Laws, removing food during the Famine etc. Not sure what favours they did the Irish?

How would Ireland have their own laws after been governed by Britain for centuries?

I don't hate Britain at all and history is history and one can't live in the past but I don't know how anyone can look at this and can say Ireland benefited from being part of the British Empire? You would really have to be one-eyed to say otherwise.
What may have been is not what is now. Ireland doesn't operate on the Brehon laws but on British-inherited common law. Its system of government is a modified version of the Westminster system - not some tribal chieftains. Britain may have done a lot of bad things in Ireland, the system they introduced and which, up to a degree, still serves the Irish state today is not one of them.

Grace O'Malley
10-01-2019, 06:51 AM
What may have been is not what is now. Ireland doesn't operate on the Brehon laws but on British-inherited common law. Its system of government is a modified version of the Westminster system - not some tribal chieftains. Britain may have done a lot of bad things in Ireland, the system they introduced and which, up to a degree, still serves the Irish state today is not one of them.

It still doesn't change the fact that it was introduced due to colonialism and that the Irish would have done better without Britain. I'm sure you wouldn't have wished for the Netherlands to have been colonised by Spain for centuries? Of course this thread wouldn't exist if Ireland wasn't colonised as there would be no Ulster Scots.

The Lawspeaker
10-01-2019, 01:22 PM
It still doesn't change the fact that it was introduced due to colonialism and that the Irish would have done better without Britain. I'm sure you wouldn't have wished for the Netherlands to have been colonised by Spain for centuries? Of course this thread wouldn't exist if Ireland wasn't colonised as there would be no Ulster Scots.

Thankfully we weren't so they didn't leave much of an imprint but the French were here for 20 years - we now use a modified form of the Code Napoleon. Our Parliament is one of the continental model instead one based on mediaeval councils. Ireland was taken over by the British and this shows itself in the structures of their society. It is what it is and it's a very workable system.

TheOldNorth
10-02-2019, 06:16 AM
Ireland had their own ancient system called the Brehon Laws. They would have developed themselves without English interference. If anyone reads Irish history Britain was a hindrance to Ireland and did not help with any development. They put all industry in the north of the country. Even when Ireland left the UK Ireland was forced to pay a portion of British Imperial debt. Ireland didn't benefit from British colonialism and any neutral reading Irish history would have to agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

yeah during the dark ages, those early years between the fall of western Rome and the rise of the vikings, the Irish where western europes greatest scholars, who christianized the scottish and english, as well as writing great works such as the Brehon laws and Lebor na Gabala Erinn. In fact many Carolingian and anglo-saxon priest went to Ireland to study.

Mingle
10-02-2019, 06:25 AM
The Ulster-Scots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people) are descended from the Lowland Scots, who are in turn largely of Anglo-Saxon derivation. Thus very Germanic to be honest.

I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.

TheOldNorth
10-02-2019, 06:37 AM
I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.

they may have some germanic, but I'd say they're mostly Pictish and Cumbric in DNA, which would explain the north irish connections too, as the Picts invaded part of northern ireland and set up there own kingdom there once, and they both have at least some Gaelic, also north irish slavers likely took a lot of cumbric women as concubines

Loki
10-02-2019, 12:47 PM
I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.

Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.

TheOldNorth
10-02-2019, 09:35 PM
Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.

just because a people speak a language does not make them automatically related to people who speak sister languages. As I'm sure you know many African and native american tribes have completely shifted to speaking one European language or another. The Scots have a similar predicament, they speak Germanic for the same reason modern Irish do, because it was and is a highly influential language family. The Scots themselves are more Celtic in blood then Anglo-Saxon even if you account for the Celtic admixture in Anglo-Saxons, I believe it is likely the case that Scots spread as a sort of trade language, and Gaelic remained relevant in the highlands till recently do to their isolation in the highlands

PaleoEuropean
10-02-2019, 09:40 PM
Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.

Also from Frisians and Welsh