Ulster-Scots - a people and a language

[British and Proud]

The extracts below have been taken from http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

About Us

"The aim of the Ulster-Scots Agency is to promote the study, conservation, development and use of Ulster-Scots as a living language, to encourage and develop the full range of its attendant culture; and to promote an understanding of the history of the Ulster-Scots."

The Ulster-Scots Agency, or Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch as it is known in Ullans, is a relatively new but important body that aims to promote the Ulster-Scots language and culture within the island of Ireland and beyond.

The Language

Not long ago Ulster's language situation interested few but revivalists and academics. But in the past decade this has completely changed.

Rediscovery and revival of Ulster-Scots culture and language is well in progress. People are embracing the traditions of their forebears and recognising that a form of speech once used in the countryside, and unfortunately more often than not labelled "poor English" in the classroom, is a legitimate and vital part of their heritage.

While English remains the main language used by people living in Northern Ireland and in the South, the language remains as the tongue of heart and home in rural areas of County Antrim, North Down and Ards, Co. Londonderry, parts of Co. Fermanagh and Tyrone and east Donegal.

However a frequently-asked question is: is Ulster-Scots a language or a dialect? This is rather like asking whether a daisy is a flower or a weed.

Ulster-Scots is a West Germainc language, as are Dutch, Frisisan, Scots and English. Coming from the same language family as English, both Scots and Ulster-Scots share with it some vocabulary, idioms and grammar, but Ulster-Scots is now recognised as a European Regional or Minority Language.

Ulster-Scots, or Ullans is technically a variant of the lowland Scots language, or Lallans, but is now recognised separately as a European Regional Language by the UK government for the purposes of the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages.

The move to have the Scots language recognised in Scotland began early this century. Scots has been recognised by The European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages for several years before Ulster-Scots also became recognised in 1993, one year after the Ulster-Scots Language Society and Ulster-Scots Academy were formed.

Most important of all is the Good Friday Agreement of April 1998, the first official document to mention the Ulster-Scots, stating that it represents "part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland".

Culture

American Presidents
Did you know that 16 of the 41 American Presidents were Ulster-Scots or had Ulster-Scots ancestry? They are: Andrew Jackson, James Knox Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnston, Ulysses S.Grant, Chester Alan Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, George Bush and Bill Clinton! George W Bush has become the 17th American President with Ulster-Scots connections. William Jefferson Clinton is a relative of Lucas Cassidy, of Ulster Presbyterian stock, who left Co. Fermanagh for America around 1750.

And George W Bush can trace his ancestral roots back to the 18th century Scots-Irish diaspora form Ulster. Mr Bush's ancestor on his mother's side, William Gault, was a first citizen of Tennessee in 1796 and is believed to have been born somewhere in Co. Antrim.

Ulster-Scots stock
Did you know that writer Mark Twain and Hollywood film actor James Stewart are just some of the American luminaries who are descended from Ulster-Scots stock? Also included are Vice-President John C. Calhoun; poet/playwright Edgar Allen Poe; 19th century farm machine inventor Cyrus McCormick; Pittsburgh banker Andrew Mellon; frontier mountain main Kit Carson; songwriter Stephen Collins Foster, and distinguished American Civil War generals: Ulsysses S Grant, "Stonewall" Jackson: J.E.B.Stuart. Thomas Brinton McClellan, Ambrose Everett Burnside, Irvin McDowell, Daniel Smith Donelson, James Shields, Charles James Halpine and Leonidas Polk.

The Fiddle
Did you know that the fiddle was first introduced into Ireland from Scotland through its use by the Ulster-Scots?

Some more links:

http://www.ulster-scots.co.uk
http://www.ulsternation.org.uk/
http://www.scotchirish.net/

[Gooding]

Awesome post. This looks like a proper nation within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its history should be more widely known.This is particularly true because the ancestry of many Americans from the Southern States who identify as Irish are more accurately Northern Irish, descendants of settlers from western England,Wales and Scotland who developed their own culture and identity before striking out once more to settle the frontier Appalachian Mountains.What touches Ulster touches some of us here.

[British and Proud]

Awesome post. This looks like a proper nation within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and its history should be more widely known.

Indeed it is a proper nation! This is something republicans refuse to accept - their culture and history is distinct - the Siege of Londonderry, the Battle of the Boyne, Orange Walks, Carson, Stormont, the Ulster-Scots language off the top of my head.

[Loki]

The Ulster-Scots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people) are descended from the Lowland Scots, who are in turn largely of Anglo-Saxon derivation. Thus very Germanic to be honest.

[Electronic God-Man]

Did you know that 16 of the 41 American Presidents were Ulster-Scots or had Ulster-Scots ancestry? They are: Andrew Jackson, James Knox Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnston, Ulysses S.Grant, Chester Alan Arthur, Grover Cleveland, Benjamin Harrison, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, George Bush and Bill Clinton! George W Bush has become the 17th American President with Ulster-Scots connections. William Jefferson Clinton is a relative of Lucas Cassidy, of Ulster Presbyterian stock, who left Co. Fermanagh for America around 1750.


I bet even Obama has Ulster-Scots ancestry. ;)

[British and Proud]

I bet even Obama has Ulster-Scots ancestry. ;)

I'm not sure about that! But certainly many US presidents did:


http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/photos/derry/waterside/attitudeartwork/DER05MURwashington1r.jpg

[Gooding]

LOL, even if he doesn't, I'm sure some well paid bullshit artist "genealogist" will invent one for him.

[Galloglaich]

The Ulster-Scots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people) are descended from the Lowland Scots, who are in turn largely of Anglo-Saxon derivation. Thus very Germanic to be honest.

It's not quite that simple. There are plenty of Scots who occupied territories in Ulster that were of Gaelic background. Many of them came in as a result of the Montgomery and Hamilton venture in 1606, just prior to the Plantation proper. Truth be told, Gaelic interaction between Ulster and Scottish Gaels predates the Plantation by centuries. In the 16th century, the Dunnyveg MacDonalds had established themselves in the Glens of Antrim and the Route. A number of these Gaelic Scots (many of whom were Presbyterian), later found themselves a part of the Ulster-Scots identity by reason of religion, even though they didn't share a direct Anglo-Saxon origin (*edit* many of the these Scots did have a Norse Germanic component in them, though...since we're addressing their Germanic-ness).

[Gooding]

LOL, I think I'm going to get reamed for this, but I'll post it anyway.:D I look at the early American colonies as Ulster on a larger scale.Many different types of Europeans settled in Ulster..The Highland and Lowland Scottish Presbyterians, English Anglicans who farmed as well as held government and military posts, Welsh Dissenters,Reformed Germans and maybe a smattering of Dutch ( William of Orange's followers, perhaps?),Ulster Irish who converted or whose grandparents converted to one of the Protestant branches of Christianity(a minority, maybe, but present still),French Huguenots driven with their skills away from France to a country grateful to their contributions.I'm sure BritishandProud could add a couple of ethnicities to the list...

[Loyalist]

It should be mentioned that English, Welsh, and Huguenot settlers also took up residence in Ulster during the Plantation, and have thus made a contribution to the blood of the modern day Ulster-Scots. From personal experience, tracing Ulster families to Plantation times is terribly difficult, but evidently Lowland Scots are the backbone of the people concerned, with input from the aforementioned Germanic and Celtogermanic peoples.

The disproportionate contribution made to civilization by this comparatively small ethnic group is truly remarkable, and this type of recognition, providing clear distinction from the separate, indigenous Irish people is of great importance to guarding and perpetuating this legacy.

[Electronic God-Man]

I'm not sure about that! But certainly many US presidents did:


http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/photos/derry/waterside/attitudeartwork/DER05MURwashington1r.jpg

Here is the full quote:


"If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger."
George Washington at Valley Forge.

Haha, obviously they left out the "British tyranny" bit. The Scotch-Irish were overwhelmingly for the Revolution, not many were "Loyalist" back in those days.

[Gooding]

The Ulster Scots (Scotch-Irish) were always devoted first and foremost to freedom:freedom to worship as they chose, freedom to choose how they shall be governed, whether it is by Westminster in Ulster or Washington,D.C. in America, freedom to defend their rights and freedom to live their lives as they see fit. I see them as our first and best examples of hard working freedom fighters..

[Creeping Death]

Ulster-Scots is a West Germainc language
Thats it not a Celtic people as the Irish and Highland Scots, the best solution would be for this group of immigrants tom return home to England. This is the evil of multi-cultural British identity introduction of alien practices into a stable homogeneous nation.

[The Lawspeaker]

Thats it not a Celtic people as the Irish and Highland Scots, the best solution would be for this group of immigrants tom return home to England. This is the evil of multi-cultural British identity introduction of alien practices into a stable homogeneous nation.
Perhaps. But it would perhaps be better to arrange their immigration to the United States or Canada. This way they can live in freedom, provide their new American/Canadian hosts with fresh European blood and also make sure that the Irish live in a homogenous nation again.

But this population transfer should only be carried out by their full consent. Their consent.. not of Britain and be organized by the United States and Canada. And everything should be done to make sure that their living conditions on the other side of the Atlantic will comfort their homesickness.

[Creeping Death]

Perhaps. But it would perhaps be better to arrange their immigration to the United States or Canada. This way they can live in freedom, provide their new American/Canadian hosts with fresh European blood and also make sure that the Irish live in a homogenous nation again.

But this population transfer should only be carried out by their full consent. Their consent.. not of Britain and be organized by the United States and Canada. And everything should be done to make sure that their living conditions on the other side of the Atlantic will comfort their homesickness.
That would be the best thing for the British population in Ulster (part of) they would be more at home in North America with their quacky form of religion which is quite normal in America. I think if each family was offered a house in America or Canada with say a $100,000 resettlement fee that would make them all leave. That is what the Israeli goverment paid (our money to begin with) the Jewish squatters in Gaza to leave.

[Loyalist]

That would be the best thing for the British population in Ulster (part of) they would be more at home in North America with their quacky form of religion which is quite normal in America. I think if each family was offered a house in America or Canada with say a $100,000 resettlement fee that would make them all leave. That is what the Israeli goverment paid (our money to begin with) the Jewish squatters in Gaza to leave.

I much prefer the idea of Irish Republicans on coffin ships; give Ireland back to the Protestants. :thumb001:

[Beorn]

Thankfully the Irish have more backbone than the Jews.

[Creeping Death]

I much prefer the idea of Irish Republicans on coffin ships; give Ireland back to the Protestants. :thumb001:Give what back, you admitted here that the Irish were indigenous.

indigenous Irish people is of great importance to guarding and perpetuating this legacyI can now hold you to that because that is the whole basis of my argument for Irish preservation being good for European preservation and the warning of immigrant subcultures being planted inside homogeneous countries.

[Goidelic]

Gaelic Irish Protestants also intermarried into the Ulster Scots gene pool as well, hence some of the native Irish sounding surnames within the lineage.

[Loyalist]

Give what back, you admitted here that the Irish were indigenous.

I'm also a firm believer in the idea that superior peoples have the right to conquer and subjugate lower groups. What better way to put that into action than placing Reformed Anglo-Scots in a leadership roll over an island of classless, violent alcoholics?

[Creeping Death]

The Ulster-Scots Agency, or Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch
"Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch"
Sounds like street Nigger talk 'Da Hood!', typical example of a the damage to a language an immigrant does.

The Fiddle
Did you know that the fiddle was first introduced into Ireland from Scotland through its use by the Ulster-Scots?
What a load grade a Shit the fiddle came into Scotland from Ireland from the Donegal fiddle tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donegal_fiddle_tradition). The fiddle has been part of Donegal hundreds of years before British squatters arrived in either Celtic Ireland and Scotland.

[Skandi]

Any bowed string musical instrument may be informally called a fiddle, regardless of the kind of music being played with it. Violins or other members of the violin family are often affectionately referred to by their players as "my fiddle".

The bowed string instrument first appeared in India circa 3000 BCE,


An excavation below a house in Christchurch Road in Dublin during the 18thC uncovered what is said to be the oldest actual bow known in Europe, dating from the 11thC, along with a medieval fiddle. The bow is of dogwood, and has an animal-head carving at the tip.
By 1674 the fiddle was well established; Richard Head wrote that in Ireland "in every field a fiddle, and the lasses footing it till they were all of a foam " Initially this would have been the medieval fiddle, but eventually the standard violin was introduced, probably via the Ulster Scots.more (http://www.fiddlingaround.co.uk/ireland/irishfiddling.html)

So the modern fiddle probably comes from the scots but the Irish already had their own version before hand. The Scots fiddle seems to have been related to the norse and Icelandic versions.

[Creeping Death]

I'm also a firm believer in the idea that superior peoples have the right to conquer and subjugate lower groups. What better way to put that into action than placing Reformed Anglo-Scots in a leadership roll over an island of classless, violent alcoholics?
You had better find a superior people to conquer Eire as the current crop are nigger like mimics who are attempting to steal the Irish identity as their own. Shit any fool who has seen an Orange parade knows we are dealing with North Europes version of the Albanians.

[The Lawspeaker]

You had better find a superior people to conquer Eire as the current crop are nigger like mimics who are attempting to steal the Irish identity as their own. Shit any fool who has seen an Orange parade knows we are dealing with North Europes version of the Albanians.
Come on, Foley. Don't be too harsh alright. Guess what's keeping Ireland running ? The good old British-influenced judicial system and the British-influenced political system. The best thing the ancient Irish came up with were a bunch of Kings and clans hellbent on slaughtering each other- when there were no English around.

[Creeping Death]

So the modern fiddle probably comes from the scots but the Irish already had their own version before hand.
Scots and the Irish are Gaels the 'Ulster Scots', is a incorrect term as they are a Germanic people Anglo Saxon in origin. The fiddle has always been a part of Irish music no squatter had anything to do with either the Irish or Scottish fiddle.

[Skandi]

Scots and the Irish are Gaels the 'Ulster Scots', is a incorrect term as they are a Germanic people Anglo Saxon in origin. The fiddle has always been a part of Irish music no squatter had anything to do with either the Irish or Scottish fiddle.
There were no bowed instruments before a dubious reference in the 7thC which is thought to be a misstranslation, before that you had Harps and Lyres. It was not until the 17thC that the fiddle became a popular instrument in Ireland.

[Creeping Death]

Come on, Foley. Don't be too harsh alright. Guess what's keeping Ireland running ? The good old British-influenced judicial system and the British-influenced political system.
The Dáil Éireann is elected by a proportional representation system the British in an archaic first past the post system. Ireland has a President not an arcahaic Queen.

The best thing the ancient Irish came up with were a bunch of Kings and clans hellbent on slaughtering each other
How was Ireland different from another European nation at that time then? Besides what is wrong with Clan warfare its a part of Gaelic Irish and Scottish heritage as is whiskey.

when there were no English around.
There were no English around:thumb001:

[Osweo]

I can't believe people are talking about MOVING them. :mad: They should live in the land that has shaped them, where they belong. Those who don't like it should lump it. They won't be moved, simple as that.

Has the Borders ingredient been mentioned yet? I like that term 'God's Frontiersmen' that I've heard attached to this group of people that went from the Cheviots to Ulster and on to America. Having a great deal of Northumberland (in the stricter sense) blood, I feel some kinship myself with this ethnicity. Is the name Lamb common over there, at all?

[Creeping Death]

There were no bowed instruments before a dubious reference in the 7thC which is thought to be a misstranslation, before that you had Harps and Lyres.
That depends on your links.

The History Of The Fiddle (http://fiddlemusic.blogspot.com/2006/07/history-of-fiddle.html)
The earliest examples of a bowed instrument and of a bow itself date from the eleventh century and were excavated in Dublin in the eighteenth century.
Eleventh century thats some 6 centuries before any Squatter landed in Ireland.

It was not until the 17thC that the fiddle became a popular instrument in Ireland.

Almost all European countries claim the invention of the violin, but none can seriously challenge the prominence of Italy in its history. The oldest surviving violin dates back to 1564 and was made by Andrea Amati, whose techniques have become the blueprints for all violin makers since. The accepted modern form of the violin, with the exception of the shape of the neck, was confirmed by 1710 thanks largely to Antonio Stradivari. It was in the early eighteenth century too, that the modern design of violin was firmly established throughout Ireland. In terms of its accepted construction, then, the fiddle is the oldest instrument in Irish traditional music. However, whereas the uilleann pipes have remained almost unchanged since its establishment in the tradition, the fiddle has undergone a process of continual development, particularly in the area of string and bow technologies.
The fiddle developed throughout Irish history.

The afore-mentioned John Neal is the first recorded Irish fiddle maker. Along with his brother, William, he began making fiddles in Dublin in the 1720s. However, there is some debate about how the instrument travelled to Ireland.
Meaning the Squatters cant substantiate any of their bullshit claims, its just their realization of the Anglo-Saxon blandness which they are attempting to distance themselves from and claim some form of racial kinship with the Irish and Scottish.

[Beorn]

"Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch"
Sounds like street Nigger talk 'Da Hood!', typical example of a the damage to a language an immigrant does.


You had better find a superior people to conquer Eire as the current crop are nigger like mimics who are attempting to steal the Irish identity as their own. Shit any fool who has seen an Orange parade knows we are dealing with North Europes version of the Albanians.


Meaning the Squatters cant substantiate any of their bullshit claims, its just their realization of the Anglo-Saxon blandness which they are attempting to distance themselves from and claim some form of racial kinship with the Irish and Scottish.



That's quite enough of all that, thank you, Brian! I would like to refer you to a rule of the forum which you agreed to when you joined up.

[high green] 3. This is a board for people of European heritage. We will not tolerate: pro-multiculturalism, pro-miscegenation, anti-Germanic or anti-Nordic views. Views, ideas, and contributions that are hostile to Europeans or their heritage are not permitted.[/high green]

If you would kindly take it upon yourself to tone down your language towards other members who are European and live and adhere to the culture you so easily deride, then that would be lovely. :)

[Skandi]

Meaning the Squatters cant substantiate any of their bullshit claims, its just their realization of the Anglo-Saxon blandness which they are attempting to distance themselves from and claim some form of racial kinship with the Irish and Scottish.

Find ANY post of mine that says it came from England? Oh and if you read on you will find that the bow was taken up at the SAME time in most of the British isles.

Also if you bothered to read my posts you would find that I had already posted about the find from the 11C.

[Beorn]

Discussion of the rules taken to here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6371).

[RenaRyuguu]

I bet even Obama has Ulster-Scots ancestry. ;)

nope nope nope

[The Lawspeaker]

The Dáil Éireann is elected by a proportional representation system the British in an archaic first past the post system. Ireland has a President not an arcahaic Queen.

How was Ireland different from another European nation at that time then? Besides what is wrong with Clan warfare its a part of Gaelic Irish and Scottish heritage as is whiskey.

There were no English around:thumb001:

In other words: the Irish inherited a functioning system (which is what the British system, for all its ills, is: a functioning system of law, order, a state church (in Ireland's case: Catholicism) and a reasonably ordered democracy) and pissed it up against the wall. Much like the "low taxes so easy money" boom of the 1980s-2000s. PR is a dreadful system that gives far too much power to the cities (a.k.a the Left) which explains why Ireland is going through its transition to multiculti hellhole even faster than a country like such as Sweden where the transition took 40 years - it takes the Irish under 10.

The fact is that England and France were the first organised states in mediaeval Europe and perpetual civil war has never led to anything productive.

[Grace O'Malley]

In other words: the Irish inherited a functioning system (which is what the British system, for all its ills, is: a functioning system of law, order, a state church (in Ireland's case: Catholicism) and a reasonably ordered democracy) and pissed it up against the wall. Much like the "low taxes so easy money" boom of the 1980s-2000s. PR is a dreadful system that gives far too much power to the cities (a.k.a the Left) which explains why Ireland is going through its transition to multiculti hellhole even faster than a country like such as Sweden where the transition took 40 years - it takes the Irish under 10.

The fact is that England and France were the first organised states in mediaeval Europe and perpetual civil war has never led to anything productive.

Ireland had their own ancient system called the Brehon Laws. They would have developed themselves without English interference. If anyone reads Irish history Britain was a hindrance to Ireland and did not help with any development. They put all industry in the north of the country. Even when Ireland left the UK Ireland was forced to pay a portion of British Imperial debt. Ireland didn't benefit from British colonialism and any neutral reading Irish history would have to agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

[Creoda]

In other words: the Irish inherited a functioning system (which is what the British system, for all its ills, is: a functioning system of law, order, a state church (in Ireland's case: Catholicism) and a reasonably ordered democracy) and pissed it up against the wall. Much like the "low taxes so easy money" boom of the 1980s-2000s. PR is a dreadful system that gives far too much power to the cities (a.k.a the Left) which explains why Ireland is going through its transition to multiculti hellhole even faster than a country like such as Sweden where the transition took 40 years - it takes the Irish under 10.

The fact is that England and France were the first organised states in mediaeval Europe and perpetual civil war has never led to anything productive.
Feels good to correct a 10 year old post from a banned member :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

Feels good to correct a 10 year old post from a banned member :thumb001:
I only now noticed his stupid post.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ireland had their own ancient system called the Brehon Laws. They would have developed themselves without English interference. If anyone reads Irish history Britain was a hindrance to Ireland and did not help with any development. They put all industry in the north of the country. Even when Ireland left the UK Ireland was forced to pay a portion of British Imperial debt. Ireland didn't benefit from British colonialism and any neutral reading Irish history would have to agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

They may have but they didn't. Even today, Ireland inherits British law and British governmental structures.

[Grace O'Malley]

They may have but they didn't. Even today, Ireland inherits British law and British governmental structures.

Well of course they didn't because they haven't had control of their country. If Ireland didn't have British interference they would have developed their own law and structures obviously. The Brehon laws were quite advanced for their time and Ireland was going along nicely pre-Viking years but it was not to be. They were invaded and treated as a colony by Britain and ended up losing a significant amount of their population. I think even British acknowledge the damage they did to Ireland. The Irish population was completely shanked by the British and this is being kind. Flight of the Earls, Penal Laws, removing food during the Famine etc. Not sure what favours they did the Irish?

How would Ireland have their own laws after been governed by Britain for centuries?

I don't hate Britain at all and history is history and one can't live in the past but I don't know how anyone can look at this and can say Ireland benefited from being part of the British Empire? You would really have to be one-eyed to say otherwise.

[TheOldNorth]

I have some ulster-scots heritage

[The Lawspeaker]

Well of course they didn't because they haven't had control of their country. If Ireland didn't have British interference they would have developed their own law and structures obviously. The Brehon laws were quite advanced for their time and Ireland was going along nicely pre-Viking years but it was not to be. They were invaded and treated as a colony by Britain and ended up losing a significant amount of their population. I think even British acknowledge the damage they did to Ireland. The Irish population was completely shanked by the British and this is being kind. Flight of the Earls, Penal Laws, removing food during the Famine etc. Not sure what favours they did the Irish?

How would Ireland have their own laws after been governed by Britain for centuries?

I don't hate Britain at all and history is history and one can't live in the past but I don't know how anyone can look at this and can say Ireland benefited from being part of the British Empire? You would really have to be one-eyed to say otherwise.
What may have been is not what is now. Ireland doesn't operate on the Brehon laws but on British-inherited common law. Its system of government is a modified version of the Westminster system - not some tribal chieftains. Britain may have done a lot of bad things in Ireland, the system they introduced and which, up to a degree, still serves the Irish state today is not one of them.

[Grace O'Malley]

What may have been is not what is now. Ireland doesn't operate on the Brehon laws but on British-inherited common law. Its system of government is a modified version of the Westminster system - not some tribal chieftains. Britain may have done a lot of bad things in Ireland, the system they introduced and which, up to a degree, still serves the Irish state today is not one of them.

It still doesn't change the fact that it was introduced due to colonialism and that the Irish would have done better without Britain. I'm sure you wouldn't have wished for the Netherlands to have been colonised by Spain for centuries? Of course this thread wouldn't exist if Ireland wasn't colonised as there would be no Ulster Scots.

[The Lawspeaker]

It still doesn't change the fact that it was introduced due to colonialism and that the Irish would have done better without Britain. I'm sure you wouldn't have wished for the Netherlands to have been colonised by Spain for centuries? Of course this thread wouldn't exist if Ireland wasn't colonised as there would be no Ulster Scots.

Thankfully we weren't so they didn't leave much of an imprint but the French were here for 20 years - we now use a modified form of the Code Napoleon. Our Parliament is one of the continental model instead one based on mediaeval councils. Ireland was taken over by the British and this shows itself in the structures of their society. It is what it is and it's a very workable system.

[TheOldNorth]

Ireland had their own ancient system called the Brehon Laws. They would have developed themselves without English interference. If anyone reads Irish history Britain was a hindrance to Ireland and did not help with any development. They put all industry in the north of the country. Even when Ireland left the UK Ireland was forced to pay a portion of British Imperial debt. Ireland didn't benefit from British colonialism and any neutral reading Irish history would have to agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

yeah during the dark ages, those early years between the fall of western Rome and the rise of the vikings, the Irish where western europes greatest scholars, who christianized the scottish and english, as well as writing great works such as the Brehon laws and Lebor na Gabala Erinn. In fact many Carolingian and anglo-saxon priest went to Ireland to study.

[Mingle]

The Ulster-Scots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people) are descended from the Lowland Scots, who are in turn largely of Anglo-Saxon derivation. Thus very Germanic to be honest.

I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.

[TheOldNorth]

I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.

they may have some germanic, but I'd say they're mostly Pictish and Cumbric in DNA, which would explain the north irish connections too, as the Picts invaded part of northern ireland and set up there own kingdom there once, and they both have at least some Gaelic, also north irish slavers likely took a lot of cumbric women as concubines

[Loki]

I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.

Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.

[TheOldNorth]

Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.

just because a people speak a language does not make them automatically related to people who speak sister languages. As I'm sure you know many African and native american tribes have completely shifted to speaking one European language or another. The Scots have a similar predicament, they speak Germanic for the same reason modern Irish do, because it was and is a highly influential language family. The Scots themselves are more Celtic in blood then Anglo-Saxon even if you account for the Celtic admixture in Anglo-Saxons, I believe it is likely the case that Scots spread as a sort of trade language, and Gaelic remained relevant in the highlands till recently do to their isolation in the highlands

[PaleoEuropean]

Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.

Also from Frisians and Welsh

[Anglo-Celtic]

I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.

This is an old comment, but it deserves recognition. Mingle is absolutely right about the western Scottish Lowlands, which have both Briton input and Gaelic input, a double dose of Celtic. The eastern Scottish Lowlands have more Anglo-Saxon input.

My "anthropological pet peeve" is when perfect strangers, from foreign countries, tell people with Appalachian roots that they're really Scottish instead of Irish as if that common knowledge and conventional wisdom holds true for all people in that region. I descend from Native Irish (not just Ulster Scottish), and I'm talking about people with stereotypical Irish surnames from the South. My last immigrant ancestor was an Irishman who came here in 1825(?). None of my great-grandparents were 100% Scots-Irish, so there's a bit of false romanticism in much of this.

[Grace O'Malley]

This is an old comment, but it deserves recognition. Mingle is absolutely right about the western Scottish Lowlands, which have both Briton input and Gaelic input, a double dose of Celtic. The eastern Scottish Lowlands have more Anglo-Saxon input.

My "anthropological pet peeve" is when perfect strangers, from foreign countries, tell people with Appalachian roots that they're really Scottish instead of Irish as if that common knowledge and conventional wisdom holds true for all people in that region. I descend from Native Irish (not just Ulster Scottish), and I'm talking about people with stereotypical Irish surnames from the South. My last immigrant ancestor was an Irishman who came here in 1825(?). None of my great-grandparents were 100% Scots-Irish, so there's a bit of false romanticism in much of this.

I did read something about this a few months ago. Would have to research more but there were Irish Catholics that changed religion in the US as well. It was something about most of the Americans that claim Irish descent were in fact Protestants and not Catholic. I will look into it more when I have time.

One of the Genetic Groups from My Heritage was from the US South. See below.

Ireland
Ireland (Tipperary, Limerick and Dublin) and England
Ireland and Northern Ireland
USA (New York City, Philadelphia, Boston and Chicago) and Australia
England
UK and Ireland
Eastern and Midwestern USA
Southern USA

It is my only low confidence GG however.

About this Genetic Group:
British and some Irish and German settlers in Southern United States
DNA kits used to form this group: 75,156
DNA kits linked to family trees: 31,353
Confidence level: Low

[Grace O'Malley]

Forum posted twice.

Another interesting thing is that whether people are Ulster Scots or Native Irish they are very similar genetically. That might cause some conniptions for some of the earlier posters but hopefully they have mellowed with knowledge and time. :)

[Ayetooey]

I did read something about this a few months ago. Would have to research more but there were Irish Catholics that changed religion in the US as well. It was something about most of the Americans that claim Irish descent were in fact Protestants and not Catholic. I will look into it more when I have time.

One of the Genetic Groups from My Heritage was from the US South. See below.

Ireland
Ireland (Tipperary, Limerick and Dublin) and England
Ireland and Northern Ireland
USA (New York City, Philadelphia, Boston and Chicago) and Australia
England
UK and Ireland
Eastern and Midwestern USA
Southern USA
Probably a lot of the Protestant Irish Americans are 75% British or some other Protestant group from the colonial era, but have an Irish grandparent or something which is a more recent migrant so put themselves down as Irish. Seems a common occurrence with German Americans, almost every German American result I've seen is heavily or even majority British. There is only 4 million Irish in Ireland but over 30 million supposed Irish Americans, doesn't really add up mathematically for them to all be pure bred.

[Grace O'Malley]

Probably a lot of the Protestant Irish Americans are 75% British or some other Protestant group from the colonial era, but have an Irish grandparent or something which is a more recent migrant so put themselves down as Irish. Seems a common occurrence with German Americans, almost every German American result I've seen is heavily or even majority British. There is only 4 million Irish in Ireland but over 30 million supposed Irish Americans, doesn't really add up mathematically for them to all be pure bred.

Possibly. I'll have to look again but it did mention about Irish changing their religion as well. This also happened in Ulster which is why you have Protestant O'Neill's and Catholic Adams.

[JamesBond007]

Probably a lot of the Protestant Irish Americans are 75% British or some other Protestant group from the colonial era, but have an Irish grandparent or something which is a more recent migrant so put themselves down as Irish. Seems a common occurrence with German Americans, almost every German American result I've seen is heavily or even majority British. There is only 4 million Irish in Ireland but over 30 million supposed Irish Americans, doesn't really add up mathematically for them to all be pure bred.

Very true I am Protestant but I was born in New York USA. I used to think I was Ulster Irish. I have an Irish hiberno-norman name.

Apparently, I am Ulster-Scots, English, German and Irish but the German, English, and Norse blood (from the Scots) was so strong my autosomal DNA is more English/Dutch.

[Anglo-Celtic]

I did read something about this a few months ago. Would have to research more but there were Irish Catholics that changed religion in the US as well. It was something about most of the Americans that claim Irish descent were in fact Protestants and not Catholic. I will look into it more when I have time.

One of the Genetic Groups from My Heritage was from the US South. See below.

Ireland
Ireland (Tipperary, Limerick and Dublin) and England
Ireland and Northern Ireland
USA (New York City, Philadelphia, Boston and Chicago) and Australia
England
UK and Ireland
Eastern and Midwestern USA
Southern USA

I looked at various genetic tests, and they're quite different from one another. You'll see one person with a relatively high amount of Irish blood, and you'll then see a second person with a relatively low amount of Irish blood. It's almost like there are peculiar marriage patterns within certain lines. You might see a German version of this too.

Whether or not Appalachians are of Ulster-Scottish or Native Irish descent, they tend to hold the Irish people in high regard. They definitely want no part of sectarian problems, and some people try to hijack them in this regard. They obviously forget that their forebears were instrumental in gaining independence from the British. I've heard some of them wish for a united Ireland too.

[Grace O'Malley]

I looked at various genetic tests, and they're quite different from one another. You'll see one person with a relatively high amount of Irish blood, and you'll then see a second person with a relatively low amount of Irish blood. It's almost like there are peculiar marriage patterns within certain lines. You might see a German version of this too.

Whether or not Appalachians are of Ulster-Scottish or Native Irish descent, they tend to hold the Irish people in high regard. They definitely want no part of sectarian problems, and some people try to hijack them in this regard. They obviously forget that their forebears were instrumental in gaining independence from the British. I've heard some of them wish for a united Ireland too.

Yes I know Appalachians have a lot of respect for the Irish and many claim Irish ancestry. I loved this from Dolly Parton when she was in Co Kerry. She is so down to earth and natural and I think the Irish would love her even more for this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ardckySYY

[Anglo-Celtic]

Probably a lot of the Protestant Irish Americans are 75% British or some other Protestant group from the colonial era, but have an Irish grandparent or something which is a more recent migrant so put themselves down as Irish. Seems a common occurrence with German Americans, almost every German American result I've seen is heavily or even majority British. There is only 4 million Irish in Ireland but over 30 million supposed Irish Americans, doesn't really add up mathematically for them to all be pure bred.

That could be true in many cases. My forebear, from County Tipperary, became a Baptist preacher. He was more Protestant than the Presbyterians. I have two or more ancestors who converted from Catholicism to Protestantism when they still were in Ireland.

One was a gallowglass who moved to Delaware. A second was a man, from County Laois, who was estranged from his father because he left the Church. A third came from a line that was evidently forced to County Mayo by Cromwell. He and others started one of the first Churches of Christ.

[JamesBond007]

That could be true in many cases. My forebear, from County Tipperary, became a Baptist preacher. He was more Protestant than the Presbyterians. I have two or more ancestors who converted from Catholicism to Protestantism when they still were in Ireland.

One was a gallowglass who moved to Delaware. A second was a man, from County Laois, who was estranged from his father because he left the Church. A third came from a line that was evidently forced to County Mayo by Cromwell. He and others started one of the first Churches of Christ.

Alot Americans are German/Irish or neo-Anglo-Saxon e.g. Irish/German/English etc... only a minority of Americans are Catholic mixes like Irish/Italian (pseudo-french) and they are concentrated in places like New York.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Forum posted twice.

Another interesting thing is that whether people are Ulster Scots or Native Irish they are very similar genetically. That might cause some conniptions for some of the earlier posters but hopefully they have mellowed with knowledge and time. :)

That's a great point. One of the most absurd and bizarre comments, that I've ever read, came from a man who bragged that he didn't have a drop of Gaelic blood, and he had a Gaelic surname that started with "Mc". This was hundreds of years ago, but it speaks to your observation. "I'm proud to say that I don't have a drop of German hun blood." - Hans Schmidt 1850

It stands to reason that they share genes with each other. Just look at how close they are to each other. It's just common sense that there was trade and travel for years before even Dalriada came to be. That makes the former troubles even that much more tragic.

[Graham]

Probably a lot of the Protestant Irish Americans are 75% British or some other Protestant group from the colonial era, but have an Irish grandparent or something which is a more recent migrant so put themselves down as Irish. Seems a common occurrence with German Americans, almost every German American result I've seen is heavily or even majority British. There is only 4 million Irish in Ireland but over 30 million supposed Irish Americans, doesn't really add up mathematically for them to all be pure bred.

Not debating your point about the pure bred thing( which is correct) but the population of Ireland was closer to 8 million, 200 years ago. The ratio between the nations was smaller at the point of migrations.

https://i.redditmedia.com/AtkyVmB1-Xe_2HEiVNzLyZoIme7Y5xAUgNGAeUrJdP8.png?w=650&

[Anglo-Celtic]

Possibly. I'll have to look again but it did mention about Irish changing their religion as well. This also happened in Ulster which is why you have Protestant O'Neill's and Catholic Adams.

Gerry Adams comes to mind. I just read an article on a horrible Protestant terrorist in the UVF, and I know that you're familiar with him. His surname is "Murphy"! I saw two or more Native Irish names in their roster.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Yes I know Appalachians have a lot of respect for the Irish and many claim Irish ancestry. I loved this from Dolly Parton when she was in Co Kerry. She is so down to earth and natural and I think the Irish would love her even more for this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ardckySYY

That's a really cool clip. She has some Gaels in her family tree too. There's a clip in which Chet Atkins and Ricky Skaggs play with the Chieftains. I love to see those positive vibes!

[Anglo-Celtic]

Alot Americans are German/Irish or neo-Anglo-Saxon e.g. Irish/German/English etc... only a minority of Americans are Catholic mixes like Irish/Italian (pseudo-french) and they are concentrated in places like New York.

That first mix is fairly common in the Midwest. Regis Philbin and Joe Rogan (just a quarter Irish, though) exemplify that last one. You also see a fair amount of celebrities who have British Isles genes mixed with Jewish genes. I've never seen an ugly one.

[Grace O'Malley]

Gerry Adams comes to mind. I just read an article on a horrible Protestant terrorist in the UVF, and I know that you're familiar with him. His surname is "Murphy"! I saw two or more Native Irish names in their roster.

Both Bobby Sands and Gerry Adams came from Planter families that obviously married into Catholics and changed their religion. There are many "mixed" :) families in Northern Ireland and by that I mean with Protestant and Catholic heritage. Also there was many Catholic Scottish highlanders and islanders that also came to Ulster pre and during the Plantations like Sorley Boy MacDonnell. All the history is really interesting.

Yes Murphy was one of the Shankill Butchers.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Both Bobby Sands and Gerry Adams came from Planter families that obviously married into Catholics and changed their religion. There are many "mixed" :) families in Northern Ireland and by that I mean with Protestant and Catholic heritage. Also there was many Catholic Scottish highlanders and islanders that also came to Ulster pre and during the Plantations like Sorley Boy MacDonnell. All the history is really interesting.

Yes Murphy was one of the Shankill Butchers.

You know those Highlanders. They went back and forth in so many ways. My McDonnell, who was from a generational gallowglass family, converted from Catholicism to Protestantism. He was from County Wicklow, not Ulster, though.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Both Bobby Sands and Gerry Adams came from Planter families that obviously married into Catholics and changed their religion. There are many "mixed" :) families in Northern Ireland and by that I mean with Protestant and Catholic heritage. Also there was many Catholic Scottish highlanders and islanders that also came to Ulster pre and during the Plantations like Sorley Boy MacDonnell. All the history is really interesting.

Yes Murphy was one of the Shankill Butchers.

Please excuse my double post. Clan McGremlin is here!

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's an article about Irish-Americans being more Protestant than Catholic.


In the American imagination, to be Irish is to be Catholic. The data, however, is clear: most Irish-Americans are not Catholic, and Irish-Americans make up a minority of Catholics in America. Nearly half of Irish-Americans are Protestant; a third are Catholic. The proportions are more equal (roughly 40 percent each) between those that were raised Catholic or Protestant.

https://religionnews.com/2014/03/17/irish-americans-religion-politics/

I'll look into it more later.

[Grace O'Malley]

You know those Highlanders. They went back and forth in so many ways. My McDonnell, who was from a generational gallowglass family, converted from Catholicism to Protestantism. He was from County Wicklow, not Ulster, though.

There are some McDonalds around that area as well from memory. The McDonalds and McDonnells are all the same though? I think they came to Ireland as Gallowglass. Something else to check on? :)

[Grace O'Malley]

There are actually 3 distinct branches of the name McDonnell in Ireland.


The first statement must be that there are three distinct origins for this name in Ireland: 1) a branch of the Scottish clan MacDonnell/MacDonald; 2) MacDonnell of Thomond, a branch of the O'Briens; 3) MacDonnell of Clan-Kelly in present Co Fermanagh.Of course, lexically, the names are cognate, from the Gaelic name, but there is no genealogical connection between these three families.

Incidentally, the Scottish clan is of remote Irish origin, having come to Scotland with the 'Scoti' (latin word for the Dark Age Irish colonists of Caledonia, such as the tribe of the Dál Riada et. al.)

https://www.ireland101.com/tribe/mcdonnell

[Anglo-Celtic]

Here's an article about Irish-Americans being more Protestant than Catholic.


https://religionnews.com/2014/03/17/irish-americans-religion-politics/

I'll look into it more later.

I tend to think that most individuals, who have roots in the Republic of Ireland, come from Catholic families. Also, as we both know, many Irish Americans have more of an Ulster Scottish background than a Native Irish one, and this likely skews the numbers. Then, some individuals are atheist or non-Christian, and a lot of them come from Catholic families. Some people come from "mixed" backgrounds, and they might identify more with just one parent's church.

All of that said, there are many Baptist and Pentecostal Americans who have Native Irish forebears and surnames. It's not all down to their ancestors' conversions from Catholicism to Protestantism. Some of them convert in the present day, or their great-grandparents might have done so, and that's especially true if they're "hybrids". You know more about this than I do, but I noticed that Irish people can be quite fervent in their beliefs, no matter what church they attend.

My (insert central casting Irish surname here) grandma and great aunt had feuds over whether Baptists or Church of Christ members were right. I found a descendant of my last immigrant Irishman ancestor, and he seemingly wrote "praise the Lord" every other word when we communicated. My "most Irish" forebear, from County Tipperary, became a Baptist preacher! I think that they're exceptions to the Catholic rule, but they're a part of the religious equation.

I noticed the same pattern with kids in school. They were from Appalachian regions, but they had Native Irish surnames. One good childhood friend of mine was almost like an evangelist, but he never forced or pushed his beliefs on people. I bet that their ancestors were equally devoted Catholics in Ireland, so it seems like Gaels might have a genetic(?) predisposition that makes them more fervently religious.

[Anglo-Celtic]

There are some McDonalds around that area as well from memory. The McDonalds and McDonnells are all the same though? I think they came to Ireland as Gallowglass. Something else to check on? :)

You're right about many of them. They were the first ones to be called "Scots-Irish". I can't find out whether or not two forebears were murdered at Glencoe. Some records claim that they were in County Wicklow at the time, but a Bible entry supports the Glencoe claim.

[JamesBond007]

I tend to think that most individuals, who have roots in the Republic of Ireland, come from Catholic families. Also, as we both know, many Irish Americans have more of an Ulster Scottish background than a Native Irish one, and this likely skews the numbers. Then, some individuals are atheist or non-Christian, and a lot of them come from Catholic families. Some people come from "mixed" backgrounds, and they might identify more with just one parent's church.

All of that said, there are many Baptist and Pentecostal Americans who have Native Irish forebears and surnames. It's not all down to their ancestors' conversions from Catholicism to Protestantism. Some of them convert in the present day, or their great-grandparents might have done so, and that's especially true if they're "hybrids". You know more about this than I do, but I noticed that Irish people can be quite fervent in their beliefs, no matter what church they attend.

My (insert central casting Irish surname here) grandma and great aunt had feuds over whether Baptists or Church of Christ members were right. I found a descendant of my last immigrant Irishman ancestor, and he seemingly wrote "praise the Lord" every other word when we communicated. My "most Irish" forebear, from County Tipperary, became a Baptist preacher! I think that they're exceptions to the Catholic rule, but they're a part of the religious equation.

I noticed the same pattern with kids in school. They were from Appalachian regions, but they had Native Irish surnames. One good childhood friend of mine was almost like an evangelist, but he never forced or pushed his beliefs on people. I bet that their ancestors were equally devoted Catholics in Ireland, so it seems like Gaels might have a genetic(?) predisposition that makes them more fervently religious.

I have an Irish hiberno-norman name and was raised Catholic but that is because New York is Catholic and Jewish on an old Dutch root. I was born in New York. One of my grandmothers was Anglican, though, and once I found out my autosomal DNA is English/Dutch I converted to Protestantism (Anglicanism).

[Anglo-Celtic]

I have an Irish hiberno-norman name and was raised Catholic but that is because New York is Catholic and Jewish on an old Dutch root. I was born in New York. One of my grandmothers was Anglican, though, and once I found out my autosomal DNA is English/Dutch I converted to Protestantism (Anglicanism).

I thought that you lived in England! I separate genetics from religion in 2021. For example, there are tons of Catholic Mexicans and tons of Evangelical Mexicans. The old rules don't apply as much these days.

[Daco Celtic]

https://youtu.be/r10CfVIxBmg

[JamesBond007]

I thought that you lived in England! I separate genetics from religion in 2021. For example, there are tons of Catholic Mexicans and tons of Evangelical Mexicans. The old rules don't apply as much these days.

Is there some law that says I can't live in England currently if I was born in New York? LOL

[JamesBond007]

I thought that you lived in England! I separate genetics from religion in 2021. For example, there are tons of Catholic Mexicans and tons of Evangelical Mexicans. The old rules don't apply as much these days.

Evangelicals are not elite WASPs like Espiscopalians, methodists and presbyterians.

Brace yourself it is the G25 religion calculator :

http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/Religion_G25_calculator.htm

Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 2.3643% / 0.02364331 | ADC: 0.25x RC
81.0 Protestant_Christianity
16.6 Catholic_Christianity
2.4 Sunni_Islam


Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 2.5583% / 0.02558347 | ADC: 0.5x RC
60.4 Protestant_Christianity
39.6 Catholic_Christianity


^Protestant a bit of Catholicism = Anglican/Episcopalian.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Is there some law that says I can't live in England currently if I was born in New York? LOL

There is. There are too many Plastic Limeys there.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Evangelicals are not elite WASPs like Espiscopalians, methodists and presbyterians.

Brace yourself it is the G25 religion calculator :

http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/Religion_G25_calculator.htm

Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 2.3643% / 0.02364331 | ADC: 0.25x RC
81.0 Protestant_Christianity
16.6 Catholic_Christianity
2.4 Sunni_Islam


Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 2.5583% / 0.02558347 | ADC: 0.5x RC
60.4 Protestant_Christianity
39.6 Catholic_Christianity


^Protestant a bit of Catholicism = Anglican/Episcopalian.

That's really something. I bet that Bishop Ussher used the same kind of calculators.

[Anglo-Celtic]

https://youtu.be/r10CfVIxBmg

That's a good documentary. It's a bit romanticized, though. They now romanticize the Ulster Scottish like they do with the Highland Scottish and the Native Irish. It's "Braveheart Syndrome".

[Creoda]

Always been ironic that the Scots-Irish/Ulster Scots in America were the most anti-British and resolute in the War of Independence, while Ulster Scots back home have been the most fervent British Nationalists.

[JamesBond007]

There is. There are too many Plastic Limeys there.

I postulate English culture is an extended phenotype of the underlying genotype :


Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02772056 West_European:England_Saxon_I0777
0.02932190 West_European:England_Saxon_I0769
0.02996588 West_European:England_Saxon_I0161
0.03050188 West_European:England_Saxon_I0159
0.03401761 West_European:England_Saxon_I0774
0.03412486 West_European:DEU_MA_ALH_1
0.03689108 West_European:England_Saxon_I0157
0.03882568 West_European:England_Saxon_I0773

The stiff upper lip, individualism, moderation, common sense, not showing off, minding your own business, being a good sport, having a religious streak, a puritan streak and a practical streak etc..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkF_XpA5P48

[JamesBond007]

There is. There are too many Plastic Limeys there.

There is no such thing as an 'American' I was always English. An Italian in the USA is Italian, a Scot in America is a Scot , an Englishman in America is an Englishman etc...

America is not a real country it is just a business :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V6GHnxEJjg

[Graham]

Always been ironic that the Scots-Irish/Ulster Scots in America were the most anti-British and resolute in the War of Independence, while Ulster Scots back home have been the most fervent British Nationalists.


America gave them more hope of land and a future. Ulster Scots were mostly the displaced and had fled famines. The Border Scots(large part of original plantation) were constantly on the front line of Scottish-English wars and lawless clan wars. The original plantation cleared the population in the Scottish-English border that could have distablised the idea of a future United Kingdom.



Take away the land from the Gaelic O'Neils and stick in tribal fighting non-Gaelic lowland scots, what's the worst that can happen?

[Graham]

The South is still empty if some want to come back.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R95a5e12a263431a1d5ace4d7d64f9439?rik=Yo8zRo8RjSBp sQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fupload.wikimedia.org%2fwikipedia% 2fcommons%2fthumb%2f5%2f5c%2fBritish_Isles_populat ion_density_2011_NUTS3.svg%2f1000px-British_Isles_population_density_2011_NUTS3.svg.pn g&ehk=HoXKWX19uofMDCiLdjFZIYslEziJ65OGofbHuW2pa%2f8% 3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw

[Anglo-Celtic]

Always been ironic that the Scots-Irish/Ulster Scots in America were the most anti-British and resolute in the War of Independence, while Ulster Scots back home have been the most fervent British Nationalists.

I noticed that for years. That's why loyalist rhetoric falls on deaf ears here, and loyalist extremists should stop exploiting our history for their own gain.

[Anglo-Celtic]

I postulate English culture is an extended phenotype of the underlying genotype :


Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02772056 West_European:England_Saxon_I0777
0.02932190 West_European:England_Saxon_I0769
0.02996588 West_European:England_Saxon_I0161
0.03050188 West_European:England_Saxon_I0159
0.03401761 West_European:England_Saxon_I0774
0.03412486 West_European:DEU_MA_ALH_1
0.03689108 West_European:England_Saxon_I0157
0.03882568 West_European:England_Saxon_I0773

The stiff upper lip, individualism, moderation, common sense, not showing off, minding your own business, being a good sport, having a religious streak, a puritan streak and a practical streak etc..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkF_XpA5P48

That raises a question. Where's *your* religious streak?

[Anglo-Celtic]

There is no such thing as an 'American' I was always English. An Italian in the USA is Italian, a Scot in America is a Scot , an Englishman in America is an Englishman etc...

America is not a real country it is just a business :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V6GHnxEJjg

Admit it. You're really a South Boston Irish-American kid who's larping as a WASP.

[Anglo-Celtic]

America gave them more hope of land and a future. Ulster Scots were mostly the displaced and had fled famines. The Border Scots(large part of original plantation) were constantly on the front line of Scottish-English wars and lawless clan wars. The original plantation cleared the population in the Scottish-English border that could have distablised the idea of a future United Kingdom.



Take away the land from the Gaelic O'Neils and stick in tribal fighting non-Gaelic lowland scots, what's the worst that can happen?

It's a recipe for disaster. Don't forget the *Gaelic* Western Lowlands ingredients.

[Daco Celtic]

Here's an article about Irish-Americans being more Protestant than Catholic.


https://religionnews.com/2014/03/17/irish-americans-religion-politics/

I'll look into it more later.

Lots of confused Scots-Irish (as we Americans like to call them) believing they are Irish.

[Anglo-Celtic]

The South is still empty if some want to come back.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R95a5e12a263431a1d5ace4d7d64f9439?rik=Yo8zRo8RjSBp sQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fupload.wikimedia.org%2fwikipedia% 2fcommons%2fthumb%2f5%2f5c%2fBritish_Isles_populat ion_density_2011_NUTS3.svg%2f1000px-British_Isles_population_density_2011_NUTS3.svg.pn g&ehk=HoXKWX19uofMDCiLdjFZIYslEziJ65OGofbHuW2pa%2f8% 3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw

I don't know. Some of them were coming home in the 1600s.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Lots of confused Scots-Irish (as we Americans like to call them) believing they are Irish.

I know. My Brennan great-great-grandpa, from County Laois, definitely was an undercover Scotsman.

[Ayetooey]

Admit it. You're really a South Boston Irish-American kid who's larping as a WASP.

He is 75% Irish 25% German from Alsace but 100% honorary Anglo.

[Daco Celtic]

I know. My Brennan great-great-grandpa, from County Laois, definitely was an undercover Scotsman.

I want Americans to appreciate their Scottish heritage that they mistake for being Irish heritage.

[Anglo-Celtic]

He is 75% Irish 25% German from Alsace but 100% honorary Anglo.

It's all good; I'm really a gender-fluid strong woman of color with GAD. That makes me a candidate for the CIA (check out the news).

[Anglo-Celtic]

I want Americans to appreciate their Scottish heritage that they mistake for being Irish heritage.

There's nothing wrong with that. Many of us have roots in both countries, though, and that's even true in "Ulster-Scottish regions".

[Universe]

He is 75% Irish 25% German from Alsace but 100% honorary Anglo.
He isn't 75% Irish, he's 75% mix of Irish and various British ethnicities, he just happens to carry an Irish surname. Yeah, he's 25% French/German from Alsace. So he's more or less avarage White American by ancestry.

[Creoda]

He isn't 75% Irish, he's 75% mix of Irish and various British ethnicities, he just happens to carry an Irish surname. Yeah, he's 25% French/German from Alsace. So he's more or less avarage White American by ancestry.
Half Irish, 1/4 British (mostly Scottish/Ulster Protestant from the looks of his results, so could be nearly 75% 'Irish' in a way), 1/4 Alsatian.

[Ayetooey]

He isn't 75% Irish, he's 75% mix of Irish and various British ethnicities, he just happens to carry an Irish surname. Yeah, he's 25% French/German from Alsace. So he's more or less avarage White American by ancestry.
No he isn’t. He posted his ancestrydna on this forum and scored full on 75% Irish 25% German, back when ancestry dna was Uber accurate for the British isles with Irish scoring 100% Irish and English scoring 100% English. He’s Irish/German a typical New York mix. He only scores 7% English with the newest update with 0 regions, and the new update in general is considered very garbage. He changes his identity literally every week so I don’t know why you’d believe his profile information.

[Universe]

No he isn’t. He posted his ancestrydna on this forum and scored full on 75% Irish 25% German, back when ancestry dna was Uber accurate for the British isles with Irish scoring 100% Irish and English scoring 100% English. He’s Irish/German a typical New York mix. He only scores 7% English with the newest update with 0 regions, and the new update in general is considered very garbage. He changes his identity literally every week so I don’t know why you’d believe his profile information.
I thought he had British blood because he consistently claimed that and identified as such, not because I saw that displayed on his profile.

[Ayetooey]

I thought he had British blood because he consistently claimed that and identified as such, not because I saw that displayed on his profile.
He’s an ex drug user with a few screws missing. He’s also claimed to be French, and for a while Dutch because a g25 calc made him score Netherlands first. He is a funny character anyway.

[Creoda]

His Living DNA & Ancestry results:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?321829-My-LivingDNA-results
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?332382-AncestryDNA-vs-G25-genoplot

Actually doesn't get much continental in these tests but he says his grandparent is from Alsace, so I don't doubt that.

[Ayetooey]

His Living DNA & Ancestry results:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?321829-My-LivingDNA-results
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?332382-AncestryDNA-vs-G25-genoplot

Actually doesn't get much continental in these tests but he says his grandparent is from Alsace, so I don't doubt that.

I remember him scoring more German and more Irish on his original ancestrydna results (which are on the forum somewhere but I cannot find them). Those ones are post 2020 update where everyone received gazillion Scottish.