Upcoming Balkan Roman aDna paper by Reich’s team

[Dick]

Found this on another platform, hopefully this year will come out


~30% of ancient Roman samples (0-400 AD) from Viminacium , and ~25% of Roman/Early Medieval samples (300-700 AD) from Timacum Minus are E-V13.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viminacium

Viminacium or Viminatium was a major city (provincial capital) and military camp of the Roman province of Moesia (today's Serbia), and the capital of Moesia Superior.

The site is located 12 km (7.5 mi) from the modern town of Kostolac in Eastern Serbia. The city dates back to the 1st century AD, and at its peak it is believed to have had 40,000 inhabitants, making it one of the biggest cities of that time. It lies on the Roman road Via Militaris. Viminacium was devastated by Huns in the 5th century, but was later rebuilt by Justinian. It was completely destroyed with the arrival of Slavs in the 6th century.

Viminacium holds a distinction of having the largest number of graves discovered in any Roman archaeological site. As of 2018, 15,000 graves have been discovered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timacum_Minus


This ones for Rex Imperator Bosniensis


75 samples, 52 are from Viminacium (four necropoli: Pirivoj (100-400 AD) - 19; Rit (0-300 AD) - 13; Više Grobalja (0-300 AD) - 10 and Pećine (0-300 AD) - 10) and 17 from Timacum Minus (two necropoli: Slog (300-500 AD) - 11 and Kuline (400-700 AD) - 6). There are also 1 Roman and 1 Late Medieval sample from Lepenski Vir, 2 Gepid samples (300-500 AD) from Mediana (near Niš/Naisos) and 1 Medieval (850-950 AD) sample from Gomolava (this one belongs to I2-Din, so he's most likely Slavic).

[Bosniensis]

Found this on another platform, hopefully this year will come out




This ones for Rex Imperator Bosniensis

Where are other haplogroups?

52 samples from Virminacium, what are their haplogroups.

[Dick]

Where are other haplogroups?

52 samples from Virminacium, what are their haplogroups.

That’s all I found. What will be interesting is finding out the autosomal DNA of the Slav

[ProudBrit]

I've said it 1000 times that E-V13 represents the romanized thracians a.k.a vlachs,it's painfully obvious...it's hotspot in ancient period being in Romania-Serbia-Bulgaria and later it spread with slavo-vlachs(bulgaro-vlach empire).

[CommonSense]

That’s all I found. What will be interesting is finding out the autosomal DNA of the Slav

I am more interested in the autosomal DNA of the natives. This is a real breakthrough if it's true.

[Dick]

I am more interested in the autosomal DNA of the natives. This is a real breakthrough if it's true.

My guess is that it will be similar to the I2 Kievan Rus that we all get on mytrueancestry

[CommonSense]

My guess is that it will be similar to the I2 Kievan Rus that we all get on mytrueancestry

Or the 'Avar' samples, which aren't too far off from that one anyway.

[Bosniensis]

My guess is that it will be similar to the I2 Kievan Rus that we all get on mytrueancestry

Those Roman 0-400 from Virminacium are far more important to see than I2 and their Y-DNA.

[Dick]

Those Roman 0-400 from Virminacium are far more important to see than I2 and their Y-DNA.

You think they will have some Scordisci admixture?

[Bosniensis]

You think they will have some Scordisci admixture?

Yes I expect massive Eastern Celtic and Greek mix, and % of Slavic (Scythian) admixture but can't see the %...

and I expect them to be J2, E1b, G for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they come out as I2a1a and I2a1b.

[Dick]

Yes I expect massive Eastern Celtic and Greek mix, and % of Slavic (Scythian) admixture but can't see the %...

and I expect them to be J2, E1b, G for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they come out as I2a1a and I2a1b.

Scordisci grave from Sremska Mitrovica Was cremated so no DNA available. We’ll see.

[Bosniensis]

Scordisci grave from Sremska Mitrovica Was cremated so no DNA available. We’ll see.

We can always turn to seer and oracle and ask him.

[Faklon]

Awesome, even more proof that I2a came with the Slavic migrations.

Some Bosnietardism may be that Gomolava borders Illyrian culture which may be different from Moesia.

[Dick]

We can always turn to seer and oracle and ask him.

I would be surprised if they don’t find any DNA unrelated to celts. This is not the paper but history of Viminacium from 2010

Territory of Roman Viminacium From Celtic to Slavic Tribes

https://www.academia.edu/2274871/Territory_of_Roman_Viminacium_From_Celtic_to_Slavi c_Tribes

[Pubiczar]

Awesome

[Bosniensis]

I would be surprised if they don’t find any DNA unrelated to celts. This is not the paper but history of Viminacium from 2010

Territory of Roman Viminacium From Celtic to Slavic Tribes

https://www.academia.edu/2274871/Territory_of_Roman_Viminacium_From_Celtic_to_Slavi c_Tribes

You are reading academia.edu as well :) I like it as well.

Honestly, let's remove Baltic admixture from Serbs and proportionally increase other admixture parts and we will have Roman admixture here.

Let's say R1a has been more numerous on Balkans after 6th century but then Illyrian haplogroup I exploded and created "founder effect" from later remenants of 6th century. (a possibility)

I don't really believe that Western Balkans was purely E1b or J2, they were probably just the ruling class or somewhere around 20%

[Dick]

You are reading academia.edu as well :) I like it as well.

Honestly, let's remove Baltic admixture from Serbs and proportionally increase other admixture parts and we will have Roman admixture here.

Let's say R1a has been more numerous on Balkans after 6th century but then Illyrian haplogroup I exploded and created "founder effect" from later remenants of 6th century. (a possibility)

I don't really believe that Western Balkans was purely E1b or J2, they were probably just the ruling class or somewhere around 20%

Yes yes age of I2 coincides with the Illyrian pyramids :rolleyes:

[Bosniensis]

Yes yes age of I2 coincides with the Illyrian pyramids :rolleyes:

But let's be fair here. Technically I people are Anatolian Farmers right?

They had to cross balkans into Baltics or wherever.

There is no doubt that I and J people lived together at some point in time :P

[Dick]

But let's be fair here. Technically I people are Anatolian Farmers right?

They had to cross balkans into Baltics or wherever.

There is no doubt that I and J people lived together at some point in time :P

You are grasping at straws now, Doctor :lol:

[Ford]

Imagine if they're 'northern' as fuck xD

[Insuperable]

Imagine if they're 'northern' as fuck xD

Luckily for us this is The World Coping Community.

[Dick]

Imagine if they're 'northern' as fuck xD

Maybe the Slav but I’m betting some will be western/Iberian- like If they do have some Celtic input

[Dick]

Imagine if they're 'northern' as fuck xD

Oh yes two are Gepids found near Nish but I’d assume they should be considered ostroGoths. Idk if Gepids reached that far south

[Bosniensis]

Oh yes two are Gepids found near Nish but I’d assume they should be considered ostroGoths. Idk if Gepids reached that far south

What if Romans were Southern pricks who ruled over North-Eastern influenced tribal people?

[Skerdilaid]

Besides V13 they also have L283 and CTS9219, basically all the major haplogroups found among Albanians.

Vicinium falls within the former Scordisci territory who were a Celtic and Illyrian hybrid tribe. Definitely these ‘Romans’ are locals that joined their legions, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were actually recruited further south.

[Dick]

Besides V13 they also have L283 and CTS9219, basically all the major haplogroups found among Albanians.

Vicinium falls within the former Scordisci territory who were a Celtic and Illyrian hybrid tribe. Definitely these ‘Romans’ are locals that joined their legions, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were actually recruited further south.

The Romans noted that the Scordisci were of a Celto-Thracian stock when they first began to conquer lands surrounding Singidun(Modern day Belgrade)


Either way, this is great news since we should finally have a Slavic migration sample from the Balkans.

[Coastal Elite]

I'm pumped about this upcoming paper.

https://i.imgur.com/gdV7aRl.gif

[War Chef]

There will only be Scordisci stuff before the Huns destroyed Nis, after that it's a gradual slavization and dilution. Like pouring water into milk.

[War Chef]

What if Romans were Southern pricks who ruled over North-Eastern influenced tribal people?

By all means that's what happened. Though Thraco-Illyrians weren't very North-shifted, more Sardinian shifted.

[Dick]

There will only be Scordisci stuff before the Huns destroyed Nis, after that it's a gradual slavization and dilution. Like pouring water into milk.

Scordisci graves in Serbia from 2nd-1st Century BC were cremated so no DNA available. Typical La Tene style graves.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture


The Two Goths from near Nis could be remains from this battle;


At the Battle of Naissus, Claudius and his legions routed a huge Gothic army.[2] Together with his cavalry commander, the future Emperor Aurelian, the Romans took thousands of prisoners, destroyed the Gothic cavalry as a force, and stormed their laager (a circular alignment of wagons long favored by the Goths).[dubious – discuss] The victory earned Claudius his surname of "Gothicus" (conqueror of the Goths), and that is how he is known to this day. More importantly, the Goths were soon driven back across the Danube River by Aurelian, and nearly a century passed before they again posed a serious threat to the empire.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius_Gothicus

[Bosniensis]

Scordisci graves in Serbia from 2nd-1st Century BC were cremated so no DNA available. Typical La Tene style graves.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture


The Two Goths from near Nis could be remains from this battle;



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius_Gothicus

Claudius Gothicus in Roman style meant something different.

"Gothicus" as well as "Germanicus" were a Roman Generals who killed a lot of Goths or Germans.

Claudius fought Goths a lot, and won. So "Gothicus" i.e. Slayer of Goths.

It's amazing how many people today think that means "being related to goths".

I know you haven't read a lot about Roman traditions which is why I understand (I used to think the same)


Illyrians were also burning their bodies like Celts, do they have any different graves? Could it be even distinguished Illyrian vs Celtic?

[Dick]

From anthrogenica



It's worth mentioning that three yet unpublished Roman samples from Serbia are I1.

The one from Viminacium, dated 0-300 AD, is just I1. The other two, from Mediana (labeled Serbia_Gepid) and Timacum Minus, dated 300-500 AD, are I1a2a1a and I1a2a1a2, respectively. Unfortunately, I don't know which version of ISOGG tree has been used, so they could be Z58>CTS8647>Z140 and Z58>CTS8647>Z140>S2169 (ISOGG 2016) or Z58>CTS8647 and Z58>CTS8647>A11141/S26062 (ISOGG 2017). The former is more probable IMO.

[Ford]

From anthrogenica

oh no no no

https://i.imgur.com/7IwyMAX.gif

[Bosniensis]

From anthrogenica

Haplogrup I ftw xD

[Lucas]

, from Mediana (labeled Serbia_Gepid)

It's not that already published so-called Gepid sample?

[Dick]

It's not that already published so-called Gepid sample?


that one is listed as R1b if that's the one you're talking about. there was also a female Gepid admixed with Hun from an earlier sample afaik.



Of 28 newly reported male samples from Viminacium (excluding VIM_2), only 1 is I1. But that shouldn't come as a surprise since they only sequenced skeletons from earlier Roman necropoli. A shame really, since there are hundreds of excavated Gepid skeletons from Viminacium.

[Lucas]

that one is listed as R1b if that's the one you're talking about. there was also a female Gepid admixed with Hun from an earlier sample afaik.

Yes I thought about this Hun-Gepid sample.

So this new Gepid will be at least mainly Germanic I hope.

[andre]

Someone waiting for movies,videogames,books.. we wainting for Viminacium samples :)

[Dick]

Haplogrup I ftw xD

Jebali smo Ilirima mater jarane

[Bosniensis]

Jebali smo Ilirima mater jarane

Nisu Albanci Iliri, oni su južni Talijani koji su se mješali sa Grcima i koji su se nastanili na Balkan.

Ja sam čitao šta je jedan senator iz Rima napisao kako se "Iliri mješaju sa Skitima" ...

Grčki pisci kažu: "Iliri i Kelti su jedno te isto" .. kakve veze Albanci imaju sa Keltima? Nemaju ništa, ali mi imamo.

Znači mi smo Iliri a ne Albanci,jer oni nemaju Slavenske DNA, nisu povezani ni sa keltima, a to što su oni bliži paleo-balkanskim vrijednostima to ih približava Grcima a ne Ilirima.

Albanci su uzeli Ilirski identitet jer ih Grci ne prihvataju pod svoje, ali ne može to tako da se radi...

Ima vremena još će se mnogo toga otkriti narednih godina vidjećeš.

[MagnusDark]

Nisu Albanci Iliri, oni su južni Talijani koji su se mješali sa Grcima i koji su se nastanili na Balkan.

Ja sam čitao šta je jedan senator iz Rima napisao kako se "Iliri mješaju sa Skitima" ...

Grčki pisci kažu: "Iliri i Kelti su jedno te isto" .. kakve veze Albanci imaju sa Keltima? Nemaju ništa, ali mi imamo.

Znači mi smo Iliri a ne Albanci,jer oni nemaju Slavenske DNA, nisu povezani ni sa keltima, a to što su oni bliži paleo-balkanskim vrijednostima to ih približava Grcima a ne Ilirima.

Albanci su uzeli Ilirski identitet jer ih Grci ne prihvataju pod svoje, ali ne može to tako da se radi...

Ima vremena još će se mnogo toga otkriti narednih godina vidjećeš.

You're such a short bus it is not even funny. Go get a brain MRI Mr. Budalovic.

[Bosniensis]

You're such a short bus it is not even funny. Go get a brain MRI Mr. Budalovic.

You were already perma-banned once for insults.

Do you wanna become the first person who was perma-banned twice?

[MagnusDark]

You were already perma-banned once for insults.

Do you wanna become the first person who was perma-banned twice?

People should be perma-banned for spreading lies and calling it truth by ignoring scientific evidence. No one should show any patience with a clown such as yourself.

[Dick]

Nisu Albanci Iliri, oni su južni Talijani koji su se mješali sa Grcima i koji su se nastanili na Balkan.

Ja sam čitao šta je jedan senator iz Rima napisao kako se "Iliri mješaju sa Skitima" ...

Grčki pisci kažu: "Iliri i Kelti su jedno te isto" .. kakve veze Albanci imaju sa Keltima? Nemaju ništa, ali mi imamo.

Znači mi smo Iliri a ne Albanci,jer oni nemaju Slavenske DNA, nisu povezani ni sa keltima, a to što su oni bliži paleo-balkanskim vrijednostima to ih približava Grcima a ne Ilirima.

Albanci su uzeli Ilirski identitet jer ih Grci ne prihvataju pod svoje, ali ne može to tako da se radi...

Ima vremena još će se mnogo toga otkriti narednih godina vidjećeš.

Mogu oni bit plavi zecevi ne zanima me. Cacino selo je uglavnom i2,I1 i mozda 2 x r1a porodica. Dje su tih J i E ilira? Nidje. Prc milojko

[Bosniensis]

People should be perma-banned for spreading lies and calling it truth by ignoring scientific evidence. No one should show any patience with a clown such as yourself.

Nobody here is concerned about your blind religion regarding your identity.

We disagree with your fairytale.

[MagnusDark]

Nobody here is concerned about your blind religion regarding your identity.

We disagree with your fairytale.

The only one that disagrees is you and some Serbs with an identity crisis. Literally NO ancient Illyrian found so far was I2a1b. Every paleo-balkan remain from Bronze and Iron Age Thraco-Illyrian territories found so far belonged to the same exact haplos(J2b-L283/E-V13/R1b-L23 among others) that Albanians, Greeks, and even some Bulgarians, Macedonians, Southern Serbs, and Montenegrins belong. Albanians also have nothing to do with Southern Italian who mostly share ancestry with Greek colonies. You're just a sad person who has a problem with being Slavic and trying to hijack the actual ancestors of people that preceded you.

You don't deal in evidence. You deal in fanciful guesswork and literal mythological fairytales that can never be substantiated. Why did you even bother DNA testing and checking your Y-DNA when your going to be an anti-scientific baby about it?

Keep thumbing me down and you will be reported. Point blank.

[Dick]

Update


The earliest I2-Din sample so far, albeit still medieval, has been found in Serbia. It's from the medieval layer of the Gomolava necropolis (most famous for it's Vinča culture layers), dated to the second half of 9th century. Technically, he's I2-CTS4002 from his ISOGG assignment, but I have no doubt he'll turn out to be below I2-Y3120, given the period and location.

[Bosniensis]

Update

Evidence?

We need undisputed evidence.

Evidence that can't be judged or misinterpreted

[Dick]

I'm a Serb

The sample is from Gomolava in the upcoming paper.

[Bosniensis]

The sample is from Gomolava in the upcoming paper.

do you know the age of sample? aprox~

[Dick]

do you know the age of sample? aprox~

from the medieval layer of the Gomolava necropolis dated to the second half of 9th century

[Kamal900]

I always knew Albanians and the ancient Paleo-Balkanic natives were closely connected. In other words, the I Y-DNA haplogroup that is commonly found among Southern Slavic peoples is indeed not native to the Balkans but rather came with the early Slavic migrants to the region.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9d/c0/ca/9dc0caa5fcba8b77ad9797c759f8108b.jpg

Not saying that Southern Slavic peoples aren't genetically natives, but not fully, especially not the Croats, Bosniaks and the Slovenians who are genetically more Slavic than Balkan. Bulgarians and Northern Macedonians seem to be more Balkan than Slavic genetically while Serbs sit in between the two clusters.

[Bosniensis]

I always knew Albanians and the ancient Paleo-Balkanic natives were closely connected. In other words, the I Y-DNA haplogroup that is commonly found among Southern Slavic peoples is indeed not native to the Balkans but rather came with the early Slavic migrants to the region.
[img]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9d/c0/ca/9dc0caa5fcba8b77ad9797c759f8108b.jpg[/ig]

Not saying that Southern Slavic peoples aren't genetically natives, but not fully, especially not the Croats, Bosniaks and the Slovenians who are genetically more Slavic than Balkan. Bulgarians and Northern Macedonians seem to be more Balkan than Slavic genetically while Serbs sit in between the two clusters.


We are all eagerly are waiting for Arab commission to explain us our identity.

Please continue.

[Kamal900]

We are all eagerly are waiting for Arab commission to explain us our identity.

Please continue.

You're Slavic, plain and simple. Next.

[Bosniensis]

from the medieval layer of the Gomolava necropolis dated to the second half of 9th century

We have a Cyrillic Ring from 8th century already of knez Strojimir.

So that sample won't prove anything.

We have Slavic Military Corpus from 6th century within the Byzantine Army regiments, still doesn't prove anything.

We need I2 from 2nd, 1st, 3rd century if it has ever been here. If not... we don't need to look further, we already have Slavic evidences.

[vbnetkhio]

You're Slavic, plain and simple. Next.

nobody identifies as a Slav nowadays, in Bosnia or elsewhere.
Most Bosniaks identify as Bosniaks, Muslims and allies of Turkey.

[Kamal900]

nobody identifies as a Slav nowadays, in Bosnia or elsewhere.
Most Bosniaks identify as Bosniaks, Muslims and allies of Turkey.

Well, I don't know about that, but in a ethno-lingusitic sense, they are Southern Slavic people.

[safinator]

Any new samples?