Origin of R1b in the Bashkir people?

[Illyrius]

Why does it peak among Bashkirs in central Asia
Why do they have r1b instead of the other typical Turkic haplogroups.
Were they once an Indo European people that got turkified?

[Kaspias]

R was part of the Turks since the beginning

[Dick]

R was part of the Turks since the beginning

the first dinosaur was R

[Deniz]

the first dinosaur was R

The dinosaurs were Indoeuropean.Imagine their father Q.

[Kaspias]

Indo European expansion explained

http://favoritememes.com/_nw/10/00184669.jpg

[Illyrius]

Was Jesus R1b or just basal R?

[Kaspias]

Was Jesus R1b or just basal R?

J1

[Leto]

Why does it peak among Bashkirs in central Asia
Why do they have r1b instead of the other typical Turkic haplogroups.
Were they once an Indo European people that got turkified?
They are made of Turkic, Indo-Iranian and Ugric elements. And by the way, that's not Central Asia but the Southern Urals.

[kalach]

Boi

[Illyrius]

Indo European expansion explained

http://favoritememes.com/_nw/10/00184669.jpg

Please send more Indo European memes

[Illyrius]

The dinosaurs were Indoeuropean.Imagine their father Q.

Q isn't the father of R
It's P
Q and R are brothers

[Ymyyakhtakh]

Like Leto said, Bashkirs are European and not Central Asian.

In Triska et al. 2017 (Between Lake Baikal and the Baltic Sea: genomic history of the gateway to Europe) (https://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12863-017-0578-3), Bashkirs had fairly high ancient IBD sharing with Khanty:

https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12863-017-0578-3/MediaObjects/12863_2017_578_Fig3_HTML.gif

The same paper suspected that the ancestors Bashkirs would have shifted their language during the Turkic expansion:


Tatar share moderate amount of IBD (3.55–7.35 cM per pair) with all neighbouring populations, while Bashkir share most of their ancient blocks (on average 8.62 cM per pair) with Khanty, a group of Uralic speakers from Western Siberia. We speculate that this disparity between cultural and genetic affinities of Tatar and Bashkir can be attributed to a phenomenon of cultural dominance: the population ancestral to Bashkir adopted the Turkic language during Turkic expansion from the east (language replacement event).

According to Post et al. 2019 (Y-chromosomal connection between Hungarians and geographically distant populations of the Ural Mountain region and West Siberia) (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44272-6), Bashkirs share N3a4-B539 with Mansi and Khanty:


Hg N3a4-B539 (Fig. 3c), on the other hand, is prevalent among Turkic speaking Bashkirs and also found in Tatars but is entirely missing from other populations of the Volga-Ural region such as Uralic speaking Udmurts, Maris, Komis and Mordvins, and in Northeast Europe, where instead N3a4-B535 lineages are frequent. Besides Bashkirs and Tatars in Volga-Ural region, N3a4-B539 is substantially represented in West Siberia among Ugric speaking Mansis and Khantys.

There are Bashkirs who look very "Uralische":

https://i.imgur.com/lfkWAOn.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/dBYgoiz.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/qnyiexS.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/q9A2yW5.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/gaINMAV.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/yp7YH0L.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/6shjdpO.jpg

[Leto]

I never said they were European. They aren't white by any means unless you consider half East Asian people white (which I don't).
Just to clarify - there is nothing wrong with them, in fact their racial make up reflects their history and geographical location (transcontinental, at the crossroads of Eastern Europe and Central Asia/South Siberia).

[Kaspias]

Like Leto said, Bashkirs are European and not Central Asian.

In Triska et al. 2017 (Between Lake Baikal and the Baltic Sea: genomic history of the gateway to Europe) (https://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12863-017-0578-3), Bashkirs had fairly high ancient IBD sharing with Khanty:

https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12863-017-0578-3/MediaObjects/12863_2017_578_Fig3_HTML.gif

The same paper suspected that the ancestors Bashkirs would have shifted their language during the Turkic expansion:


Tatar share moderate amount of IBD (3.55–7.35 cM per pair) with all neighbouring populations, while Bashkir share most of their ancient blocks (on average 8.62 cM per pair) with Khanty, a group of Uralic speakers from Western Siberia. We speculate that this disparity between cultural and genetic affinities of Tatar and Bashkir can be attributed to a phenomenon of cultural dominance: the population ancestral to Bashkir adopted the Turkic language during Turkic expansion from the east (language replacement event).

According to Post et al. 2019 (Y-chromosomal connection between Hungarians and geographically distant populations of the Ural Mountain region and West Siberia) (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44272-6), Bashkirs share N3a4-B539 with Mansi and Khanty:


Hg N3a4-B539 (Fig. 3c), on the other hand, is prevalent among Turkic speaking Bashkirs and also found in Tatars but is entirely missing from other populations of the Volga-Ural region such as Uralic speaking Udmurts, Maris, Komis and Mordvins, and in Northeast Europe, where instead N3a4-B535 lineages are frequent. Besides Bashkirs and Tatars in Volga-Ural region, N3a4-B539 is substantially represented in West Siberia among Ugric speaking Mansis and Khantys.

There are Bashkirs who look very "Uralische":

https://i.imgur.com/lfkWAOn.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/dBYgoiz.jpg

I think it is not because of simply linguistical change during Turkic expansion, but probably some Uralic population already absorbed in process of the creation of the Turkic ethnicity which brings Turks their Euro-like Steppe admixture. I don't eliminate the first option, but regarding ancient DNA of Turks, some already plot(or get in high amounts) Uralic even Ugric populations.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

I never said they were European. They aren't white by any means unless you consider half East Asian people white (which I don't).
Just to clarify - there is nothing wrong with them, in fact their racial make up reflects their history and geographical location (transcontinental, at the crossroads of Eastern Europe and Central Asia/South Siberia).

Southern Bashkirs have Kalmyk admixture, but northern Bashkirs are far less than half Mongoloid (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/QpAdm-based-admixture-models-for-the-forest-tundra-and-steppe-forest-cline_fig5_332747456):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332747456/figure/fig5/AS:755606516400135@1557162040393/QpAdm-based-admixture-models-for-the-forest-tundra-and-steppe-forest-cline.png

Bashkirs are semi-white in the same way as Southern Europeans. They are just mixed with different kind of Asians (North or Central and not West). Even Greeks are geographically European even though they are racially mostly non-European.

[Leto]

Bashkirs are semi-white in the same way as Southern Europeans. They are just mixed with different kind of Asians (North or Central and not West). Even Greeks are geographically European even though they are racially mostly non-European.
Bullshit. Go troll somewhere else. Southern Europeans are not half East Eurasian, they are nearly entirely West Eurasian/Caucasoid.

Bashkirs are ca. 40% mongoloid on average. The least mong samples I've seen were in the low 30s.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

Bullshit. Go troll somewhere else. Southern Europeans are not half East Eurasian, they are nearly entirely West Eurasian/Caucasoid.

Bashkirs are ca. 40% mongoloid on average. The least mong samples I've seen were in the low 30s.

Please don't use swear words. Maris are about 30% or 35% Mongoloid, and they look way more white than Greeks or Bulgarians.

[Blondie]

Baskhirs have very homogeneous r1b paternal origin and it's not turkic by origin but totally different from other turkic peoples. I don't understand why do turkics claim every single haplogroup as "native turkic" what they have today and why do they deny that they assimilated many other non turkic tribes and peoples during the history. That's why turkics nowadays have different genetic from each toher and totally different paternal origin baskhirs are mostly r1b, yakuts are N, Kazakhs are C Turkmens are Q, turks are J etc etc...

[catgeorge]

Turks have the most colourful YDNA pie chart on the planet

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1db79425748f8fe38af0e137ab4fa294

[catgeorge]

Please don't use swear words. Maris are about 30% or 35% Mongoloid, and they look way more white than Greeks or Bulgarians.

Sure, but in Greece they're Mongols.

[Illyrius]

Baskhirs have very homogeneous r1b paternal origin and it's not turkic by origin but totally different from other turkic peoples. I don't understand why do turkics claim every single haplogroup as "native turkic" what they have today and why do they deny that they assimilated many other non turkic tribes and peoples during the history. That's why turkics nowadays have different genetic from each toher and totally different paternal origin baskhirs are mostly r1b, yakuts are N, Kazakhs are C Turkmens are Q, turks are J etc etc...

Fair point.
They have assimilated many haplogroups and then they try to claim them as theirs
I think Q is the true native Turkic haplogroup.

[Blondie]

Fair point.
They have assimilated many haplogroups and then they try to claim them as theirs
I think Q is the true native Turkic haplogroup.

Yes, but the proto-turkics had other haplogroups not just Q, but nowadays most these r1a, r1b markers are result of assimilation and don't connected to protot-turkics.

[porpozontokonto]

I think Q is the true native Turkic haplogroup.
No. That would be N.
Q is Paleosiberian

And what the fuck is "true native Turkic haplogroup" anyways?

[Illyrius]

No. That would be N.
Q is Paleosiberian

And what the fuck is "true native Turkic haplogroup" anyways?

What I mean by that?
Quit playing dumb
You have assimilated and "stolen" many other y haplogroups that aren't yours.

[Illyrius]

Yes, but the proto-turkics had other haplogroups not just Q, but nowadays most these r1a, r1b markers are result of assimilation and don't connected to protot-turkics.

Fair point @Blondie.

You ever see those angsty and mad R1a turkics suffering from their identity crisis.
They go to such great lengths and put lots of effort to make up lies and misinformation regarding R1a-Z93 claiming it to be of Turkic origin which clearly isn't. But no one believes their lies anyway
It's hilarious how bad they fail at what they're trying to do.
They are so entitled and Aryan or White wannabes

[porpozontokonto]

What I mean by that?
Quit playing dumb
You have assimilated and "stolen" many other y haplogroups that aren't yours.

If you're talking about the speakers of Proto Turkic language, they were mostly N. Q was pushed back to west and to the Americas and was largely replaced in Siberia expect in small enclaves.

Turks were predominantly R1a when the Turkic identity was born.

[Chelubey]

If you're talking about the speakers of Proto Turkic language, they were mostly N. Q was pushed back to west and to the Americas and was largely replaced in Siberia expect in small enclaves.

Turks were predominantly R1a when the Turkic identity was born.

I agree with you.
I like the idea of ​​the proto-Turkic Hg Q, but this idea is not consistent with the recent expansion of Turkic tribes.
Archaeologists and geneticist have not recorded the migration of Q- rich tribes from Asia to Europe In 1 millennium.. It is present in ancient samples of Eurasia, but as a minor haplogroup in combination with hg R. Separate subclades of hg Q found in Europe and the Kazakh steppes as early as 5-6 thousand years ago in combination with hg R- this also does not agree with the recent expansion of the Turkic peoples. Cimmerians were Q-rich , but this is the beginning of the 1 millennium BC and they are not considered Turkic. In addition, I noticed that people who do not have basic knowledge about the Turkic peoples and their history like to talk about Turkic ethnogenesis. They think that Turkic ethnogenesis is a completely unknown page of history and that there is a lot of space for their speculative theories.

[Pine]

Which subclade of R1b? Why are you all obsessed with broad haplogroups from the time of fucking dinosaurs? There is no ethnic claim to R1b. All you can say that is that it's foreign to East Asians and Australian natives.

[Rocinante]

Seems to be that the major clade on bashkirs are U152.

[Givec]

Southern Bashkirs have Kalmyk admixture, but northern Bashkirs are far less than half Mongoloid (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/QpAdm-based-admixture-models-for-the-forest-tundra-and-steppe-forest-cline_fig5_332747456):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332747456/figure/fig5/AS:755606516400135@1557162040393/QpAdm-based-admixture-models-for-the-forest-tundra-and-steppe-forest-cline.png

Bashkirs are semi-white in the same way as Southern Europeans. They are just mixed with different kind of Asians (North or Central and not West). Even Greeks are geographically European even though they are racially mostly non-European.

Obviously this little Finnish Asian still can’t understand who gave him culture and IE language.
Blond and pinky piggy white has nothing to do with Old Europeans and PIE.

Your color is a pure degeneration of genes and a lack of melanin because of the inhuman environment where you live. You just need to lose color to adapt, the opposite what negroes have again because of the peculiarities of the environment.

[Givec]

Sure, but in Greece they're Mongols.

We call you Gypsies but unlike your baseless claims, ours lie on written history and facts.
Titus Livius,
History of Rome, 36.17 -the hostile army was more numerous and made up of far better soldiery; there were in that army Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians, all very warlike tribes; here there are Syrians and Asiatic Greeks, the meanest of mankind, and born only for slavery ”. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/livy/livy36.html

[sailormoon]

The Bashkir population has a high percentage of R1b-M73 or R1b1a1a1 at 23.4%. One Sintashta_MLBA sample carried R1b1a1a1 that was dated 1878-1664 calBCE. The Sintashta culture prospered in the region that is now called Chelyabinsk Oblast, Russia, where some of the Bashkirs still live today. Their remote ancestors who were responsible for the late Middle Bronze Age archaeological culture may have resembled the Bashkirs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5JFTZITrxA




Russia (R1a portion) Srubnaya, Sintashta
I0419 U2e1 R1a1a1b2a2a Potapovka 2200-1900 BCE Russia
I0246 C R1 Potapovka 2469-1928 calBCE (3760±100 BP, AA-12568) Russia
I0422 T1a1 .. Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia
I0232 U5a1f2 R1a1a1b2 Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia
I0430 H3g R1a1a1b2a2a Srubnaya 1850-1600 BCE Russia
I0431 H2b .. Srubnaya 1850-1600 BCE Russia
I0361 H5b R1a1a Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia
I0358 H6a1a .. Srubnaya 1906-1631 calBCE (3455±56 BP, AA-47808) Russia
I0359 U5a2a1 .. Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia
I0424 T2b4 R1a1a1b2a Srubnaya 1850-1600 BCE Russia
I0360 U5a1 R1a1 Srubnaya_1d.rel.I0354 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0421 H3g .. Srubnaya_1d.rel.I0430 1850-1600 BCE Russia
I0354 U5a1 .. Srubnaya_o 2014-1692 calBCE (3517±56 BP, AA-47809) Russia

I0233 U5a1 R1 Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia

I1019 W1c R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I1003 U4b1a1a1 I2a1a1a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0942 H2b R1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0986 H1 R1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0989 H1 R1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1006 U5a1c R1a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1082 U5b2a1a2 R1a1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1084 U2e1'2 R1a1a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1008 T1a1 R1a1a1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1086 T1a1 R1a1a1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1065 H6a1a R1a1a1b Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1018 T2e2 R1a1a1b2a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1055 U2e1 R1a1a1b2a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1011 U5a2+16294 R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I1012 U2e1h R1b1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0937 U5a1b1f .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0938 H2a1a .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0939 T2e2 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0943 J1b1a1 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1013 K1a+195 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1022 U5a1a2a .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1024 H2b .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1060 T2b .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1061 H5a1 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1062 K1a26 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1063 U4a .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1088 J1c2 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1089 U5b2a1a2 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1090 T1a1 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0982 J2b1d .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I7480 K2a5b .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1064 H6a1a R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 1879-1694 calBCE (3460±20 BP, PSUAMS-2102) Russia
I1053 H2b R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 1922-1763 calBCE (3520±25 BP, PSUAMS-2064) Russia
I1027 T1a1 R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 1962-1775 calBCE (3550±25 BP, PSUAMS-1954) Russia
I1029 J1c5a .. Sintashta_MLBA 1973-1772 calBCE Russia
I0984 T2e2 R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 2023-1782 calBCE Russia
I7670 J1c1b1a R1b1a1a2 Sintashta_MLBA 2200-1800 BCE Russia
I1010 T1a1 P1 Sintashta_MLBA_1d.rel.I1086 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0940 U2e1h .. Sintashta_MLBA_1st.degree.rel.I1055 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0985 U2e2a .. Sintashta_MLBA_1st.degree.rel.I1084 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I1054 H2b R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA_brother.of.I1053 1891-1746 calBCE Russia
I1007 U2e1'2'3 Q1a Sintashta_MLBA_o1 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0980 H13a1a R1b1a1a2 Sintashta_MLBA_o1 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0983 J1b1a3 .. Sintashta_MLBA_o1 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1017 H6b Q1a2 Sintashta_MLBA_o1 1929-1753 calBCE (3520±30 BP, Beta-436294) Russia
I1057 U5a1 R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA_o2 1949-1772 calBCE (3540±25 BP, PSUAMS-1953) Russia
I1020 J2b1 R1b1a1a2a2 Sintashta_MLBA_o2 2012-1774 calBCE (3555±31 BP, OxA-12533) Russia
I1056 U5a1 R1a1a1b Sintashta_MLBA_o2_brother.of.I1057 1886-1695 calBCE Russia
I1058 U5a1 R1a1a Sintashta_MLBA_o2_brother.of.I1057 1906-1743 calBCE Russia
[B]I0941 U5a1 R1b1a1a Sintashta_MLBA_o3 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1028 U2e1'2 R1b1a1a1 Sintashta_MLBA_o3 1878-1664 calBCE (3440±30 BP, Beta-436293) Russia

[eatensemn]

r1a, r1b markers are result of assimilation and don't connected to protot-turkics.

Knock knock,


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078v1

Celestial Türks:

NOM001 M U7a3a R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93)
TSB001 M H14b J1a (J-CTS5368)
UGU001 M D2 J2a (J-L559; J-M410)
ULI002 M B4c1a2a J2a (J-L559; J-M410)
ZAA002 M C4a2a1 C2b1a1b1 (C-F3830)
ZAA004 M D4b1a2a1 C2b1a1b1 (C-F3830)
ZAA007 F D4l2 -

Orkhon Uighurs:

OLN001.A F D4 -
OLN001.B M B5b1a Q1a1 (Q-F1215; Q-F1096)
OLN002 F T1a1 -
OLN003 M T1a1 R1b1a2 (R-PF6505; R-M269)
OLN004 F H4a1a1a -
OLN005 M H6b R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN007 M D4 C2e1a1a (C-F3864; C-M407)
OLN008 F D4i -
OLN009 F J1b1b1 -
OLN010 M G3a3 R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN011 M B5b2a R1b1a2a2 (R-CTS1078)
OLN012 F D4j10 -
ZAA001 F A24 -

Xiongnu:

SKT007 M C4 Q1a2a1c (Q-L334; Q-L330) early Xiongnu

JAG001 M F1b1f - earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT002 M G2a1e R1b (R-M343) earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT004 F U2e1a1 - earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT005 M F1b1f R1b1 (R-M415; R-P25_1) earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT006 M G2a1e R1 (R-P236; R-M173) earlyXiongnu_rest

AST001 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT001 F U5a1i - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT003 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT008 M H Q1a2a1c (Q-L334; Q-L330) earlyXiongnu_west
SKT009 M I1a R1a1a1b (R-Z647; R-Z645) earlyXiongnu_west
SKT010 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT012 M C4a1a4a J2a1h2 (J-L25) earlyXiongnu_west

BRL002 F HV6 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR001 F T2b - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR002 M U2e1 E1b1b1a1b2 (E-V22; E-L677) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR003 M J2b1a2a R1a1a1b (R-Z647; R-Z645) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR004 F G2a5 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
DUU001 F D4b1a2a1 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
HUD001 F K1a19 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
NAI001 M K1a12a1a J2a1h2 (J-L25) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
NAI002 / NAI003 M C4a2c1 R1a1a1b1 (R-Z283) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
TMI001 F J2b1a2a - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU005 M U4a1 R1a1a1b2a2a (R-Z2123) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU006 M Z1a J1 (J-M267) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU010 M - R1a1a1b2a2a (R-Z2123) lateXiongnu_sarmatian

ATS001 F C4a1a - lateXiongnu_han
BAM001 F D4j3 - lateXiongnu_han
BRU001 M D5b1b2 J1a2b (J-P58) lateXiongnu_han
EME002 F B5a2a1b - lateXiongnu_han
SON001 M D4 NO (NO-M2308; NO-M2313) lateXiongnu_han
TUH001 M B5a2a1a C2b1b1 (C-M86) lateXiongnu_han
TUH002 M B5a2a1a J2a (J-M410) lateXiongnu_han
YUR001 M D5a2a1 N1 (N-L735) lateXiongnu_han

Khitans:

ULA001 M Y1a J2a2 (J-L581) Khitan
ZAA003 F F2a - Khitan
ZAA005 M D4c1b1 J2a (J-L212; J-M410) Khitan

[Blondie]

Knock knock,


lateXiongnu_sarmatian

Thanks to prove what i said.

[eatensemn]

Thanks to prove what i said.


The Sarmatians were eventually decisively assimilated (e.g. Slavicisation) and absorbed by the Proto-Slavic population of Eastern Europe.

So slavs have also stolen (?) sarmatians. Or they can't steal, because they are "white" but dirty turks of couse steal noble people.

Sorry for low quality logic but i'm trying to deal with german logic here.

Orkhon Uighurs:

OLN001.A F D4 -
OLN001.B M B5b1a Q1a1 (Q-F1215; Q-F1096)
OLN002 F T1a1 -
OLN003 M T1a1 R1b1a2 (R-PF6505; R-M269)
OLN004 F H4a1a1a -
OLN005 M H6b R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN007 M D4 C2e1a1a (C-F3864; C-M407)
OLN008 F D4i -
OLN009 F J1b1b1 -
OLN010 M G3a3 R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN011 M B5b2a R1b1a2a2 (R-CTS1078)
OLN012 F D4j10 -
ZAA001 F A24 -

[Blondie]

So slavs have also stolen (?) sarmatians. Or they can't steal, because they are "white" but dirty turks of couse steal noble people.

Sorry for low quality logic but i'm trying to deal with german logic here.

Orkhon Uighurs:

OLN001.A F D4 -
OLN001.B M B5b1a Q1a1 (Q-F1215; Q-F1096)
OLN002 F T1a1 -
OLN003 M T1a1 R1b1a2 (R-PF6505; R-M269)
OLN004 F H4a1a1a -
OLN005 M H6b R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN007 M D4 C2e1a1a (C-F3864; C-M407)
OLN008 F D4i -
OLN009 F J1b1b1 -
OLN010 M G3a3 R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN011 M B5b2a R1b1a2a2 (R-CTS1078)
OLN012 F D4j10 -
ZAA001 F A24 -

Iranic tribes lived in the southern part of East Europe before the slavic and turkic expansion happened, later they were assimilated into turkics and slavs.

[eatensemn]

Iranic tribes lived in the southern part of East Europe before the slavic and turkic expansion happened, later they were assimilated into turkics and slavs.

So sarmatians were, even tho they badly predate them, very different than early turkics, like "day and night" and they got unfortunately assimalited into an alien horde.

[Immanenz]

So sarmatians were, even tho they badly predate them, very different than early turkics, like "day and night" and they got unfortunately assimalited into an alien horde.

Sarmatians were IndoEuropeans, they spoke an Iranian language, so yes- they were pretty different to Proto- Turkic people, not just in language but also looks.

[Rocinante]

The common clade in bashkirs is U152, they are italians.

[eatensemn]

they were pretty different to Proto- Turkic people

So what is "proto-turkic" people in your mind?

I have always been thinking of steppe indo-europeans migrating to east asia and forming a nomadic confederation with devil's gate people, founding the turkic identity.

[Immanenz]

So what is "proto-turkic" people in your mind?

I have always been thinking of steppe indo-europeans migrating to east asia and forming a nomadic confederation with devil's gate people, founding the turkic identity.

well, proto- Turkic were close to Mongolic and some Northeast Chinese tribe, but its true, they intermixed pretty early with other tribes including Sarmatians etc.

But why do you see them as devil´s gate people?

[eatensemn]

well, proto- Turkic were close to Mongolic and some Northeast Chinese tribe, but its true, they intermixed pretty early with other tribes including Sarmatians etc.

But why do you see them as devil´s gate people?

My idea is proto-turks were a bunch of steppe aryan tribes migrated into tungusic (devil's gate-like) people and formed a new nation. I don't really think turkic were mongolic-chinese like. But (later) mongolic admixture added.

[Rocinante]

It's really curious about these ethnic group have U152, We don't know how They can get that haplogroup, if Celtic and Roman people don't traveled there... We don't know any migration toward there..
Probably they've got U152 cause Eastern Celts that they traveled to there, Idk, but... could be..

It's strange actually, because they are really isolated and U152, from where it originated, it's too far away.

[Immanenz]

My idea is proto-turks were a bunch of steppe aryan tribes migrated into tungusic (devil's gate-like) people and formed a new nation. I don't really think turkic were mongolic-chinese like. But (later) mongolic admixture added.

This is certainly not the common theory as the "proto-turkic" homeland is Central- Asia but also from a language standpoint it does not make much sense. Kurds are more Aryan since they speak an Indo-Aryan language .

[Immanenz]

My idea is proto-turks were a bunch of steppe aryan tribes migrated into tungusic (devil's gate-like) people and formed a new nation. I don't really think turkic were mongolic-chinese like. But (later) mongolic admixture added.

This is certainly not the common theory as the "proto-turkic" homeland is Central- Asia but also from a language standpoint it does not make much sense. Kurds are more Aryan since they speak an Indo-Aryan language .

[eatensemn]

This is certainly not the common theory as the "proto-turkic" homeland is Central- Asia but also from a language standpoint it does not make much sense. Kurds are more Aryan since they speak an Indo-Aryan language .

Yes but kurds still live in the place where they originated. But aryan ancestors of turks "migrated" to east asia and they shifted to local language of course. From y-dna lineages it's very clear i think.

[Immanenz]

Yes but kurds still live in the place where they originated. But aryan ancestors of turks "migrated" to east asia and they shifted to local language of course. From y-dna lineages it's very clear i think.

Proto Turks are closest to Proto-Mongolic people, so this makes not sense. but of course mixing with some IndoIranian/Sarmatian people was very early.

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/pzmI3vAIhbE

[eatensemn]

Proto Turks are closest to Proto-Mongolic people

A clear no. I think proto-turks were a confederation of steppe people and east asians. We have mixed caucasoid and mongoloid individuals in all early turkic burials if i'm not mistaken. Also we have non-iranic y-dna lineages in turks and nothing explains this except "very early" aryan migration into east asia. As we see here r1b clade in bashkir people.

Kapsias may comment on this better.

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/pzmI3vAIhbE

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?188824-Genghis-Khan-was-R1b-M343

[Immanenz]

A clear no. I think proto-turks were a confederation of steppe people and east asians. We have mixed caucasoid and mongoloid individuals in all early turkic burials if i'm not mistaken. Also we have non-iranic y-dna lineages in turks and nothing explains this except "very early" aryan migration into east asia. As we see here r1b clade in bashkir people.

Kapsias may comment on this better.

Proto-Turks did not speak an IndoEuropean language, that means this Aryan people were integrated in Turkic people. If we are only talking about a "Proto Turkic" aka first speakers of Turkic language, this can only be logically not Aryan-speakers.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4405460/

[eatensemn]

If we are only talking about a "Proto Turkic" aka first speakers of Turkic language, this can only be logically not Aryan-speakers.

Ok i need to explain better, my idea is aryans migrated into a transeurasian-language area and formed turkic languages jointly with locals, leaving their own language. This also explains some very early proto-ie loans in the turkic languages.

Martine Robbeets's latest transeurasian study.

https://www.shh.mpg.de/1025930/original-1533812636.png?t=eyJ3aWR0aCI6ODQ4LCJvYmpfaWQiOjEwM jU5MzB9--98d4ad1a83d45d16c1cae1634182af0794914b76

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/macro-altaic-japanese.jpg

[Immanenz]

Ok i need to explain better, my idea is aryans migrated into a transeurasian-langua area and formed turkic languages jointly with locals, leaving their own language. This also explain some very early proto-ie loans in the turkic languages.


This makes no sense because those locals they "joined" spoke a Proto- Turkic language, therefor those were the Proto Turks.

[eatensemn]

This makes no sense because those locals they "joined" spoke a Proto- Turkic language, therefor those were the Proto Turks.

My idea is the locals were some sort of transeurasian-language speakers and turkic languages were formed by the contributions of migrants.

[Immanenz]

My idea is the locals were some sort of transeurasian-language speakers and turkic languages were formed by the contributions of migrants.

well, got it but nope, this is not what "Proto-Turkic" is.

[Shubotai]

Celestial Celts

There is a theory about a Roman legion that made it there, but it is hard to accept. More likely R1b-U152 that initially stayed behind.

Bashkir is also one the most pure forms of Turkic language out there along with Turkmen -minus Persian influence- preserving certain sounds (https://64.media.tumblr.com/11937d6a758bdcf8ebf84c78c0f6d294/tumblr_osqd3gQfub1uuqf4fo1_r2_1280.png) and that maybe relates to the the fact that they are a QR group mostly Q-M25 and R-M343.

I also understand there is a lot of N in various Turkic peoples but it belongs to downstream Uralic subclades like N-TAT>P43 that doesn't make original Turks N but makes modern Turkic peoples like Turkish Uralic in origin.

And for adherents of the altaic mongoloid origin of Turks I would suggest C-F1756>F3830 mentioned in an earlier post as well as in here (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?260780-Haplogroup-C-F1756-among-Turkic-peoples).

[Illyrius]

Celestial Celts

There is a theory about a Roman legion that made it there, but it is hard to accept. More likely R1b-U152 that initially stayed behind.

Bashkir is also one the most pure forms of Turkic language out there along with Turkmen -minus Persian influence- preserving certain sounds (https://64.media.tumblr.com/11937d6a758bdcf8ebf84c78c0f6d294/tumblr_osqd3gQfub1uuqf4fo1_r2_1280.png) and that maybe relates to the the fact that they are a QR group mostly Q-M25 and R-M343.

I also understand there is a lot of N in various Turkic peoples but it belongs to downstream Uralic subclades like N-TAT>P43 that doesn't make original Turks N but makes modern Turkic peoples like Turkish Uralic in origin.

And for adherents of the altaic mongoloid origin of Turks I would suggest C-F1756>F3830 mentioned in an earlier post as well as in here (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?260780-Haplogroup-C-F1756-among-Turkic-peoples).

I see i see. Makes sense

About the R1b U152. That's Indeed as odd.

How did a subclade of R1b show up amongst them?
Do you have any more data on this?

[Shubotai]

n* M73 M269(xL23) L23(xM412) U152

South-East Bashkirs 329 77 8 106 2

West Bashkirs 54 0 0 0 0

South Bashkirs 79 0 2 9 1

North Bashkirs 70 1 0 2 50

South-West Bashkirs 51 1 0 0 0

Total 586 79 10 126 53

* number of Bashkir samples

A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/)