Why some North Italians shift near Tuscan averages?

[Adamastor]

I have many kits of North Italians and people with proved fully North Italian ancestry and I noticed many are north-shifted but some are extremely southern-shifted and approach Tuscans rather than populations up north.

This seems to be common even in Veneto/Friuli/Trentino. So what's the explanation? Imperial Roman influence? A pre-Roman genetic structure?


So you can find results from this:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 25.52
2 Atlantic 21.02
3 West_Med 16.12
4 East_Med 9.91
5 Eastern_Euro 9.01
6 Baltic 8.6
7 West_Asian 6.25
8 Red_Sea 3.01
9 Oceanian 0.55

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French 6.27
2 Spanish_Galicia 9.02
3 South_Dutch 9.28
4 West_German 9.53
5 Portuguese 10.07
6 Serbian 10.45
7 Spanish_Cataluna 10.55
8 North_Italian 11.32
9 Spanish_Extremadura 11.63
10 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.88
11 East_German 12.31
12 Spanish_Murcia 12.36
13 Austrian 12.58


To this:

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 25.66
2 West_Med 19.48
3 East_Med 18.42
4 North_Sea 14.93
5 Baltic 6.63
6 West_Asian 5.83
7 Eastern_Euro 4.63
8 Red_Sea 3.45
9 Southeast_Asian 0.60
10 Oceanian 0.45

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 5.22
2 Tuscan 7.8
3 Spanish_Andalucia 8.01
4 Spanish_Murcia 8.03
5 Spanish_Valencia 8.34
6 Spanish_Extremadura 8.44
7 Spanish_Cataluna 9.18
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.19
9 Portuguese 9.41
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 9.68
11 Spanish_Galicia 11.08
12 West_Sicilian 11.26
13 Spanish_Cantabria 11.94

The first person is from a German speaking minority, but there are some Romance dialect speakers approaching these results, the second guy is a Venetian speaker. This second guy is an extreme example (a North Italian having West Sicilian that close is extremely rare...), could be Jewish or South Italian admixed who knows, but there are some people approaching results as extreme as him.

[dududud]

I have many kits of North Italians and people with proved fully North Italian ancestry and I noticed many are north-shifted but some are extremely southern-shifted and approach Tuscans rather than populations up north.

This seems to be common even in Veneto/Friuli/Trentino. So what's the explanation? Imperial Roman influence? A pre-Roman genetic structure?


So you can find results from this:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 25.52
2 Atlantic 21.02
3 West_Med 16.12
4 East_Med 9.91
5 Eastern_Euro 9.01
6 Baltic 8.6
7 West_Asian 6.25
8 Red_Sea 3.01
9 Oceanian 0.55

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French 6.27
2 Spanish_Galicia 9.02
3 South_Dutch 9.28
4 West_German 9.53
5 Portuguese 10.07
6 Serbian 10.45
7 Spanish_Cataluna 10.55
8 North_Italian 11.32
9 Spanish_Extremadura 11.63
10 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.88
11 East_German 12.31
12 Spanish_Murcia 12.36
13 Austrian 12.58


To this:

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 25.66
2 West_Med 19.48
3 East_Med 18.42
4 North_Sea 14.93
5 Baltic 6.63
6 West_Asian 5.83
7 Eastern_Euro 4.63
8 Red_Sea 3.45
9 Southeast_Asian 0.60
10 Oceanian 0.45

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 5.22
2 Tuscan 7.8
3 Spanish_Andalucia 8.01
4 Spanish_Murcia 8.03
5 Spanish_Valencia 8.34
6 Spanish_Extremadura 8.44
7 Spanish_Cataluna 9.18
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.19
9 Portuguese 9.41
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 9.68
11 Spanish_Galicia 11.08
12 West_Sicilian 11.26
13 Spanish_Cantabria 11.94

The first person is from a German speaking minority, but there are some Romance dialect speakers approaching these results, the second guy is a Venetian speaker. This second guy is an extreme example (a North Italian having West Sicilian that close is extremely rare...), could be Jewish or South Italian admixed who knows, but there are some people approaching results as extreme as him.

I believe that the average in east-med in northern Italy is 18 on the Eurogene K13 from gedmatch.


My mother have 17 and she has no southern Italian ancestors. I think it's just a joint contribution, but nothing more. Maybe due to modeling.

1 West_Med 32.83
2 North_Atlantic 30.87
3 East_Med 17.88
4 Baltic 13.3
5 West_Asian 3.47
6 East_Asian 1.23
7 Red_Sea 0.19
8 Amerindian 0.15
9 Oceanian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 7.79
2 Spanish_Andalucia 9.99
3 Spanish_Valencia 10.47
4 Spanish_Extremadura 10.67
5 Portuguese 11.07
6 Spanish_Galicia 11.44
7 Spanish_Murcia 11.56
8 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 11.75
9 Spanish_Cataluna 12.03
10 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.27
11 Spanish_Cantabria 12.47
12 Tuscan 12.51
13 Southwest_French 13.05
14 Spanish_Aragon 13.71
15 French 17.72
16 West_Sicilian 18.17
17 Greek_Thessaly 18.47
18 Romanian 19.57
19 Italian_Abruzzo 19.7
20 Bulgarian 19.88

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51% Sardinian + 49% West_German @ 3.66
2 52.8% Sardinian + 47.2% Austrian @ 3.81
3 58.3% Sardinian + 41.7% North_German @ 4.33
4 51.3% Sardinian + 48.7% South_Dutch @ 4.45
5 54.6% Sardinian + 45.4% East_German @ 4.58
6 54% Sardinian + 46% Hungarian @ 4.6
7 55.7% French + 44.3% Sardinian @ 4.95
8 61% Sardinian + 39% Swedish @ 4.97
9 59.2% Sardinian + 40.8% Danish @ 5.02
10 78.2% North_Italian + 21.8% Sardinian @ 5.04
11 62.6% Sardinian + 37.4% North_Swedish @ 5.06
12 59.1% Sardinian + 40.9% North_Dutch @ 5.31
13 60.8% Sardinian + 39.2% Norwegian @ 5.34
14 56.4% Sardinian + 43.6% Southeast_English @ 5.78
15 51.3% Serbian + 48.7% Sardinian @ 6.03
16 58.5% Sardinian + 41.5% Orcadian @ 6.09
17 67.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 32.8% Sardinian @ 6.34
18 69.8% Portuguese + 30.2% Sardinian @ 6.35
19 70.4% Southwest_French + 29.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 6.37
20 59.4% Sardinian + 40.6% Irish @ 6.45

[Adamastor]

I believe that the average in east-med in northern Italy is 18 on the Eurogene K13 from gedmatch.


My mother have 17 and she has no southern Italian ancestors. I think it's just a joint contribution, but nothing more. Maybe due to modeling.



The average is 19.58, what is quite high... Not that I take GEDmatch very seriously, but I'm still trying to figure what exactly is ''East Med'', ''West Med'' and things like that. West Med is supposed to be Sardinian, but Sardinians also score a good chunk of East Med...

[Adamastor]

bump

[Samnium]

Southern immigration in the north of Italy.

If you make a model something like 70% a point slightly above N.Italian reference + 30% Southern you would end up near Tuscan averages.

[Token]

North Italians from the Po Plain are more south shifted but most have a Lombardy/Bergamo-like profile while those from the mountainous regions are more north shifted. This is the tendency i see in northern Italy, but there are exceptions.

[Token]

Southern immigration in the north of Italy.

If you make a model something like 70% a point slightly above N.Italian reference + 30% Southern you would end up near Tuscan averages.

I agree.

[Adamastor]

Southern immigration in the north of Italy.

If you make a model something like 70% a point slightly above N.Italian reference + 30% Southern you would end up near Tuscan averages.

I'm talking only about people with 4 grandparents originally from Northern Italy.

[Samnium]

I'm talking only about people with 4 grandparents originally from Northern Italy.

You have to go further to see if there's possibly southern ancestry.

Otherwise the same reason as Token, a "Bergamo-like" profile, with strong EEF and a bit of East Med that would shift more Eastern.

[Token]

Can someone model Lombardy with North Italian Beakers, Hallstatt, ITA_Collegno_MA and Imperial Romans? I don't have access to my PC atm.

[Adamastor]

You have to go further to see if there's possibly southern ancestry.

Otherwise the same reason as Token, a "Bergamo-like" profile, with strong EEF and a bit of East Med that would shift more Eastern.

Well, I've seen even some people from Trentino/North Veneto scoring things like 19% East_Med and 20-25% West_Med, so I wonder if it's a sign of an older genetic pattern or Imperial Roman influence.

[Samnium]

Well, I've seen even some people from Trentino/North Veneto scoring things like 19% East_Med and 20-25% West_Med, so I wonder if it's a sign of an older genetic pattern or Imperial Roman influence.

There's surely some "roman influence", but N.Italians have very high Neolithic ancestry though, Alps have always been a barrier, that's explain the gap between N.Italy and neighbor countries.

[Token]

There's surely some "roman influence", but N.Italians have very high Neolithic ancestry though, Alps have always been a barrier, that's explain the gap between N.Italy and neighbor countries.

The Alps was only a good barrier against Germanic geneflow. There was no huge gap between Central Europe and Northern Italy before Germanic movements, see Lech_MBA.

[Genetic]

Southern immigration in the north of Italy.

If you make a model something like 70% a point slightly above N.Italian reference + 30% Southern you would end up near Tuscan averages.

I don't think that's the case. He's clearly talking about pure Northern Italians from small cities. For example, there's people from the New World with Northern Italian heritage (immigrants arrived in 1875) scoring like this. And the Southern Italian immigration boom to North Italy only started in 1950/1960.

[Rocinante]

IMO, east_med it's a 1/2 southeast euro 1/2 levantine coord in k15 and k13.

[Samnium]

I don't think that's the case. He's clearly talking about pure Northern Italians from small cities. For example, there's people from the New World with Northern Italian heritage (immigrants arrived in 1875) scoring like this. And the Southern Italian immigration boom to North Italy only started in 1950/1960.

Not true. The immigration in Northern Italy started right after the Risorgimento, in 1861.


The Alps was only a good barrier against Germanic geneflow. There was no huge gap between Central Europe and Northern Italy before Germanic movements, see Lech_MBA.

That's what I was saying, Alps prevented "Germanic geneflow", Central Europe had a typical SW profile before that.

[Hajimurad]

According to Strabo, after expulsion of Gauls (they remained only in Lombardy), Po river valley (Emilia-Romagna) and parts of Veneto (Aquilea) were repopulated by Roman and Latin colonists. Etruscans and Umbrians also participate in this colonization. Gauls of Lombardy, Ligurians and Venetians were assimilated by them.

[Genetic]

Can someone model Lombardy with North Italian Beakers, Hallstatt, ITA_Collegno_MA and Imperial Romans? I don't have access to my PC atm.

"sample": "Italian_Lombardy:Average",
"fit": 0.9509,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 54.17,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 21.67,
"Bell_Beaker_ITA": 20,
"CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany": 4.17

[Genetic]

Not true. The immigration in Northern Italy started right after the Risorgimento, in 1861.



That's what I was saying, Alps prevented "Germanic geneflow", Central Europe had a typical SW profile before that.

That's why I said the immigration boom started in 1950, before it was much smaller, and even today it's quite rare in small cities. Anyway, I understand your point, and I think it's the case in some results, but not always.

[Token]

"sample": "Italian_Lombardy:Average",
"fit": 0.9509,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 54.17,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 21.67,
"Bell_Beaker_ITA": 20,
"CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany": 4.17

Thank you. Which modern populations is Collegno_MA closest to? I remember it looked like a mixture of locals and Longobards.

[Samnium]

That's why I said the immigration boom started in 1950, before it was much smaller, and even today it's quite rare in small cities. Anyway, I understand your point, and I think it's the case in some results, but not always.

If you see the G25 of Swiss Italian and Piedmont, they are quite southern shifted (plotting a bit northern of Tuscan reference but still close), so it might be that "process" as well.

[dududud]

I believe that the eef contribution includes an east-med contribution too. I do not know what it is worth on gedmatch, but on vahaduo the northern italians are modeled as mainly without too much levant neolithic, caucasus and iran farmer (which could be an "east-med" in addition), same for sardinians.

My mother is half sardinian and she don't have or have few levant neolithic/caucasus/iran farmer.

[dududud]

Venetian results :

1 North_Atlantic 31.41
2 West_Med 23.71
3 Baltic 18.61
4 East_Med 18.32
5 West_Asian 5.33
6 Red_Sea 1.38
7 South_Asian 0.72
8 Oceanian 0.24
9 East_Asian 0.22
10 Siberian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.57
2 Portuguese 10.49
3 Tuscan 10.82
4 Spanish_Galicia 11.25
5 Romanian 11.32
6 Spanish_Cataluna 11.65
7 Spanish_Extremadura 11.66
8 Serbian 11.97
9 Spanish_Valencia 12.02
10 Spanish_Murcia 12.41
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.44
12 Bulgarian 12.51
13 French 12.59
14 Spanish_Andalucia 13.04
15 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.83
16 Greek_Thessaly 14.14
17 Spanish_Cantabria 14.36
18 Southwest_French 15.04
19 West_German 15.91
20 Austrian 16.43

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.1% North_Italian + 15.9% Belorussian @ 2.01
2 83.9% North_Italian + 16.1% Estonian_Polish @ 2.02
3 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Lithuanian @ 2.03
4 81.3% North_Italian + 18.7% Ukrainian @ 2.15
5 80.7% North_Italian + 19.3% South_Polish @ 2.22
6 83.9% North_Italian + 16.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.24
7 82.6% North_Italian + 17.4% Polish @ 2.24
8 85.3% North_Italian + 14.7% Estonian @ 2.25
9 51% Spanish_Valencia + 49% Bulgarian @ 2.26
10 83.5% North_Italian + 16.5% Southwest_Russian @ 2.27
11 76.2% North_Italian + 23.8% Croatian @ 2.46
12 83.8% North_Italian + 16.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.47
13 81% North_Italian + 19% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.5
14 85.2% North_Italian + 14.8% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.66
15 86.1% North_Italian + 13.9% East_Finnish @ 2.68
16 85.5% North_Italian + 14.5% Finnish @ 2.7
17 51.6% Romanian + 48.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.75
18 73.7% North_Italian + 26.3% Hungarian @ 2.77
19 86.1% North_Italian + 13.9% Erzya @ 2.83
20 57.1% Bulgarian + 42.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.87

[Adamastor]

Venetian results :

1 North_Atlantic 31.41
2 West_Med 23.71
3 Baltic 18.61
4 East_Med 18.32
5 West_Asian 5.33
6 Red_Sea 1.38
7 South_Asian 0.72
8 Oceanian 0.24
9 East_Asian 0.22
10 Siberian 0.06



Looks Slavic admixed.

[dududud]

Looks Slavic admixed.

Has a distant Rudolf ancestor (could be austrian), the other are venetians, according the genealogy.

The sample comes from the brother of my friend's paternal grandmother with a documented genealogy.

Rudolf ancestor = paternal great grandmother.

Don't quote:
https://ton.twitter.com/i/ton/data/dm/1223012950937608198/1223012928468766720/NwB8dgX5.jpg:large