Does West Mediterranean ancestry on Gedmatch means European or North African?

[Serbat14]

Does West Mediterranean ancestry on Gedmatch means European or North African ancestry?

[dududud]

Guess?

[Rocinante]

In almost all calculators of Gedmatch, it's a coordinate that means Sardinian. Gedmatch calcs should be seen all components together and not only one.

[Adamastor]

In almost all calculators of Gedmatch, it's a coordinate that means Sardinian. Gedmatch calcs should be seen all components together and not only one.

Yeah, but Sardinians also score a good amount of East_Med.

[Serbat14]

Guess?
Tell me
I'm asking you

[Serbat14]

In almost all calculators of Gedmatch, it's a coordinate that means Sardinian. Gedmatch calcs should be seen all components together and not only one.
So it's European I guess

[Rocinante]

Yeah, but Sardinians also score a good amount of East_Med.

Exactly, that's why it should be seen all components together before make a conclusion. It's a lie that, for example, a Venetian or a Lombard that score 15 or 16 of East Med in EK15 means that he is partly from Cyprus or Lebanon, or if that same person scores 22 of North Sea, that he is partly viking. All components should be seen together.

[gixajo]

As far as I know, European.

" In terms of "west med" component in k13; the proxy seems to be Sardinians that has over 50% "west med" derived dna. Which is understandable because they represent a near perfect, modern sample of European farmer-Neolithic dna without much of a genetic impact in Steppe admixture. Along with other Southern/Southwestern European populations that get a decent chunk of the "west med" component."

[Rocinante]

So it's European I guess

West Med it's like 80% european and East Med like 50%, it depends.

[gixajo]

And.

"The west med component in Eurogenes k13 is related to Early European Farmers and peaks in Sardinians. Everybody in Europe get's at least part of their ancestry from EEFs and it generally increases as you move south on a map of Europe."

[Serbat14]

West Med it's like 80% european and East Med like 50%, it depends.

East Mediterranean ancestry means Greek and rest of southeast Europe?

[Rocinante]

East Mediterranean ancestry means Greek and rest of southeast Europe?

It peeks between South Greece, Cyprus and the Levant, but for example, italians, specially the sicilians, score high in this component. If you have Gedmatch and you post Eurogenes K15 and it's oracles, i can help you better.

[xripkan]

Does West Mediterranean ancestry on Gedmatch means European or North African ancestry?

Neolithic Med. It peaks in Sardinia.

[Serbat14]

It peeks between South Greece, Cyprus and the Levant, but for example, italians, specially the sicilians, score high in this component. If you have Gedmatch and you post Eurogenes K15 and it's oracles, i can help you better.


Neolithic Med. It peaks in Sardinia.

So in conclusion, would it be ok if I'll classify West Mediterranean ancestry as European? Since it's predominantly European genetically from what I understand

[Rocinante]

So in conclusion, would it be ok if I'll classify West Mediterranean ancestry as European? Since it's predominantly European genetically from what I understand

In gedmatch it is a pred. european component, yes. In real life, All West Mediterranean people are europeans.

[xripkan]

So in conclusion, would it be ok if I'll classify West Mediterranean ancestry as European? Since it's predominantly European genetically from what I understand

These components go back to Neolithic era. Mediterranean populations were Neolithic farmers and a little bit West Hunter Gatherers (the western part and maybe Northern Balkans). They had no Steppe ancestry. In Sardinia peaks the west med component that includes West hunter Gatherers.
East Med peaks in Levant, Cyprus and to a lesser extent Greece. An ancient civilization with very high east Med component is Minoans.
We can say that West Med is European ancestry since it does not include an African or Eastern component but you can find this component in non-European populations like North Africans or maybe even Levantine people to a low extent. This happens because it is a Neolithic Med component and it does not mean necessarily any admixture with modern West Med peoples.

[FilhoV]

West Mediterranean is what the name suggests it’s west Mediterranean

Berbers, Iberians, and Several Italian groups score high amounts of it but is common among most of Europe

[FilhoV]

On Gedmatch I’m 28% west med and 16% easy med

[Serbat14]

West Mediterranean is what the name suggests it’s west Mediterranean

Berbers, Iberians, and Several Italian groups score high amounts of it but is common among most of Europe
Yea coz it's European I guess

[Serbat14]

On Gedmatch I’m 28% west med and 16% easy med

Are you Spanish

[gixajo]

On Gedmatch I’m 28% west med and 16% easy med

23,79% Western Mediterranean, 5,03% East Mediterranean in Eurogenes V2 k15

30,06% Western mediterranean , 7,08% East Mediterranean in K13

[Leto]

23,79% Western Mediterranean, 5,03% East Mediterranean in Eurogenes V2 k15

30,06% Western mediterranean , 7,08% East Mediterranean in K13
An Asturian I happen to have (he is also part Canarian, 1/4 or 1/8)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 39.61
2 West_Med 30.5
3 Baltic 10.92
4 East_Med 9.98
5 Northeast_African 3.19
6 West_Asian 2.66
7 Amerindian 1.47
8 Red_Sea 1.44
9 Oceanian 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Cantabria 3.92
2 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 4.33
3 Southwest_French 5.13
4 Spanish_Andalucia 5.45
5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 5.62
6 Spanish_Aragon 5.94
7 Spanish_Valencia 6.1
8 Spanish_Extremadura 6.23
9 Spanish_Galicia 6.26
10 Spanish_Cataluna 6.46
11 Spanish_Murcia 6.48
12 Portuguese 6.67
13 French 12.6
14 North_Italian 12.77
15 French_Basque 14.9
16 South_Dutch 18.02
17 West_German 18.46
18 Tuscan 18.93
19 Southwest_English 21.5
20 Southeast_English 21.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 2.99
2 95% Southwest_French + 5% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 3.14
3 95.7% Southwest_French + 4.3% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 3.16
4 94.8% Southwest_French + 5.2% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 3.16
5 97.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.9% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 3.17
6 97.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.5% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 3.17
7 97.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.9% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 3.22
8 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Somali @ 3.23
9 95% Southwest_French + 5% Somali @ 3.25
10 94.5% Southwest_French + 5.5% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 3.25
11 94.6% Southwest_French + 5.4% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 3.28
12 97.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.4% Hadza @ 3.33
13 97.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.9% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 3.34
14 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 3.35
15 96% Southwest_French + 4% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 3.38
16 97.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.1% Ethiopian_Anuak @ 3.41
17 97.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.3% Maasai @ 3.45
18 93.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 6.3% Sardinian @ 3.45
19 98% Spanish_Cantabria + 2% Sudanese @ 3.49
20 97.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.1% Sandawe @ 3.53

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 29.17
2 West_Med 24.95
3 North_Sea 23.25
4 East_Med 8.75
5 Eastern_Euro 4.1
6 Northeast_African 3.33
7 Baltic 2.77
8 Red_Sea 1.23
9 Amerindian 1.2
10 West_Asian 1.15
11 Oceanian 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Portuguese 5.91
2 Spanish_Cantabria 6.09
3 Spanish_Murcia 6.55
4 Spanish_Extremadura 6.63
5 Spanish_Cataluna 6.72
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 7
7 Spanish_Galicia 7.12
8 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 7.36
9 Spanish_Aragon 8.1
10 Spanish_Valencia 8.18
11 Spanish_Andalucia 8.61
12 Southwest_French 9
13 North_Italian 12.31
14 French 12.33
15 French_Basque 16.3
16 South_Dutch 16.89
17 Tuscan 18.32
18 Southwest_English 18.97
19 West_German 19.05
20 Southeast_English 20.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.6% Portuguese + 47.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.1
2 84% Portuguese + 16% French_Basque @ 5.13
3 62% Spanish_Cantabria + 38% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.37
4 72% Portuguese + 28% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.44
5 77.3% Spanish_Galicia + 22.7% French_Basque @ 5.51
6 71.4% Portuguese + 28.6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.6
7 59% Spanish_Cantabria + 41% Spanish_Murcia @ 5.61
8 57.2% Spanish_Galicia + 42.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.63
9 79.6% Portuguese + 20.4% Southwest_French @ 5.63
10 97.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.4% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 5.65
11 60.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 39.4% Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.66
12 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 5.69
13 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 5.71
14 97% Spanish_Cantabria + 3% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 5.72
15 95% Portuguese + 5% Sardinian @ 5.74
16 97.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.9% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 5.74
17 97.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.6% Somali @ 5.76
18 94.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 5.1% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.76
19 52.2% Spanish_Galicia + 47.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.76
20 97.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.1% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 5.8

[Adamm]

On Gedmatch I score the following:

K13: West_Med 26.44 Pct / East_Med 30.33 Pct

K15: West_Med 23.40 Pct / East_Med 27.87 Pct

So its probably mixed between Africans and Europeans.

[Bred]

It is probably european.. i think it is related to Neothlic farmers which is Common between both population.. but in reality it is ancient near eastern ... so i would say it might be both but its purely Caucasian .

[Cumansky]

Mother

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.95
2 North_Atlantic 24.29
3 East_Med 11.25
4 West_Med 10.66
5 Sub-Saharan 3.08
6 West_Asian 1.7
7 Siberian 1.67
8 Red_Sea 0.72
9 Northeast_African 0.6
10 Oceanian 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_Russian 7.64
2 Ukrainian 8.21
3 Estonian_Polish 8.47
4 Belorussian 9.04
5 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.11
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.22
7 Russian_Smolensk 9.39
8 South_Polish 9.55
9 Polish 9.7
10 Kargopol_Russian 11.8
11 Croatian 11.88
12 Lithuanian 12.74
13 Erzya 12.89
14 Estonian 13.73
15 Moldavian 14.05
16 East_Finnish 14.99
17 Finnish 15.08
18 Hungarian 15.87
19 Southwest_Finnish 16.28
20 East_German 18.34

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.4% Estonian_Polish + 11.6% Tunisian @ 5.43
2 87.4% Belorussian + 12.6% Tunisian @ 5.56
3 81.2% Lithuanian + 18.8% Tunisian @ 5.63
4 80.4% Lithuanian + 19.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.67
5 88.7% Estonian_Polish + 11.3% Algerian @ 5.68
6 88.9% Estonian_Polish + 11.1% Mozabite_Berber @ 5.7
7 88.2% Estonian_Polish + 11.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.71
8 89.8% Estonian_Polish + 10.2% Egyptian @ 5.71
9 86.5% Estonian_Polish + 13.5% Ashkenazi @ 5.77
10 77.7% Lithuanian + 22.3% Ashkenazi @ 5.78
11 87.8% Belorussian + 12.2% Mozabite_Berber @ 5.8
12 87.7% Belorussian + 12.3% Algerian @ 5.83
13 89.2% Estonian_Polish + 10.8% Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.9
14 88.6% Estonian_Polish + 11.4% Italian_Jewish @ 5.91
15 89.2% Estonian_Polish + 10.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.92
16 87.3% Belorussian + 12.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.92
17 90.4% Estonian_Polish + 9.6% Samaritan @ 5.96
18 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Moroccan @ 5.98
19 90.6% Estonian_Polish + 9.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 5.99
20 80.8% Lithuanian + 19.2% Italian_Jewish @ 6

[gixajo]

An Asturian I happen to have (he is also part Canarian, 1/4 or 1/8)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 39.61
2 West_Med 30.5
3 Baltic 10.92
4 East_Med 9.98
5 Northeast_African 3.19
6 West_Asian 2.66
7 Amerindian 1.47
8 Red_Sea 1.44
9 Oceanian 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Cantabria 3.92
2 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 4.33
3 Southwest_French 5.13
4 Spanish_Andalucia 5.45
5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 5.62
6 Spanish_Aragon 5.94
7 Spanish_Valencia 6.1
8 Spanish_Extremadura 6.23
9 Spanish_Galicia 6.26
10 Spanish_Cataluna 6.46
11 Spanish_Murcia 6.48
12 Portuguese 6.67
13 French 12.6
14 North_Italian 12.77
15 French_Basque 14.9
16 South_Dutch 18.02
17 West_German 18.46
18 Tuscan 18.93
19 Southwest_English 21.5
20 Southeast_English 21.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 2.99
2 95% Southwest_French + 5% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 3.14
3 95.7% Southwest_French + 4.3% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 3.16
4 94.8% Southwest_French + 5.2% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 3.16
5 97.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.9% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 3.17
6 97.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.5% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 3.17
7 97.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.9% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 3.22
8 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Somali @ 3.23
9 95% Southwest_French + 5% Somali @ 3.25
10 94.5% Southwest_French + 5.5% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 3.25
11 94.6% Southwest_French + 5.4% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 3.28
12 97.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.4% Hadza @ 3.33
13 97.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.9% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 3.34
14 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 3.35
15 96% Southwest_French + 4% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 3.38
16 97.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.1% Ethiopian_Anuak @ 3.41
17 97.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.3% Maasai @ 3.45
18 93.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 6.3% Sardinian @ 3.45
19 98% Spanish_Cantabria + 2% Sudanese @ 3.49
20 97.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.1% Sandawe @ 3.53

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 29.17
2 West_Med 24.95
3 North_Sea 23.25
4 East_Med 8.75
5 Eastern_Euro 4.1
6 Northeast_African 3.33
7 Baltic 2.77
8 Red_Sea 1.23
9 Amerindian 1.2
10 West_Asian 1.15
11 Oceanian 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Portuguese 5.91
2 Spanish_Cantabria 6.09
3 Spanish_Murcia 6.55
4 Spanish_Extremadura 6.63
5 Spanish_Cataluna 6.72
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 7
7 Spanish_Galicia 7.12
8 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 7.36
9 Spanish_Aragon 8.1
10 Spanish_Valencia 8.18
11 Spanish_Andalucia 8.61
12 Southwest_French 9
13 North_Italian 12.31
14 French 12.33
15 French_Basque 16.3
16 South_Dutch 16.89
17 Tuscan 18.32
18 Southwest_English 18.97
19 West_German 19.05
20 Southeast_English 20.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.6% Portuguese + 47.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.1
2 84% Portuguese + 16% French_Basque @ 5.13
3 62% Spanish_Cantabria + 38% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.37
4 72% Portuguese + 28% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.44
5 77.3% Spanish_Galicia + 22.7% French_Basque @ 5.51
6 71.4% Portuguese + 28.6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.6
7 59% Spanish_Cantabria + 41% Spanish_Murcia @ 5.61
8 57.2% Spanish_Galicia + 42.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.63
9 79.6% Portuguese + 20.4% Southwest_French @ 5.63
10 97.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.4% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 5.65
11 60.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 39.4% Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.66
12 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 5.69
13 97.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.8% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 5.71
14 97% Spanish_Cantabria + 3% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 5.72
15 95% Portuguese + 5% Sardinian @ 5.74
16 97.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.9% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 5.74
17 97.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.6% Somali @ 5.76
18 94.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 5.1% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.76
19 52.2% Spanish_Galicia + 47.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.76
20 97.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 2.1% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 5.8

Are you collecting are Spanish data?

[Bosniensis]

West Med means only Anatolian of course.

Western Mediterranean people originate from Anatolia.

[Leto]

Are you collecting are Spanish data?
No.

[gixajo]

No.

It´ s a pitty, I would like have those data , but I too lazy to collecting it looking post by post.

[gixajo]

West Med means only Anatolian of course.

Western Mediterranean people originate from Anatolia.

Maybe you meant East Mediterranean, and no Western Mediterranean.

[PaleoEuropean]

From Spain to the Balkans.

[happycow]

European

[J. Ketch]

The correct answer is that it means neither. It is pure Med.

[Synapsid]

Its Anatolian_N + WHG, so European. North Africa faced a replacement event in the Neolithic, when Iberian farmers migrated across the straits and mixed Taforalt like populations (that were 55% Anatolian Hunter gatherer like and 45% Ancestral North Africans)

[dududud]

The correct answer is that it means neither. It is pure Med.

No, Europeans. Med doesn't exist en genetic, we talk about cluster, not vague term.

[Synapsid]

And.

"The west med component in Eurogenes k13 is related to Early European Farmers and peaks in Sardinians. Everybody in Europe get's at least part of their ancestry from EEFs and it generally increases as you move south on a map of Europe."

Not really. More like SW Europe where old stock European ancestry is high. Eastern Mediterraneans are different (they have more post neolithic MENA ancestry like East med, West Asian, CHG).

[Bosniensis]

Maybe you meant East Mediterranean, and no Western Mediterranean.

Western and Eastern Mediterranean split in Anatolia.

Ancient Anatolian Farmers were basically 50%/50% (according to samples)

[Synapsid]

No, Europeans. Med doesn't exist en genetic, we talk about cluster, not vague term.

I would say any population that is West Eurasian, but has a high level of Anatolian_N ancestry is med. Neolithic Anatolians became extinct by the Bronze age unfortunately.

[PaleoEuropean]

You can look up each calculators definition of areas. Each one is different.

[Synapsid]

Western and Eastern Mediterranean split in Anatolia.

Ancient Anatolian Farmers were basically 50%/50% (according to samples)

No, don't use Gedmatch to model populations, use formal statistics. Anatolian farmers were only 14% Natufians/Levant_N related, they were hunter gatherers who locally developed Agriculture. They are actually more North Shifted than many S. European population once you factor out steppe ancestry. They are over-overwhelmingly closer to West Med, but you need WHG to be actually be West Med.

[J. Ketch]

No, Europeans. Med doesn't exist en genetic, we talk about cluster, not vague term.
ENF and Sardinians are not part of the modern European cluster. They are an ancient Med race that once formed their own cluster, Sardinians are the last remnants.

[Nomansman]

Sardinians are the true chads/bros

These guys used to be around Europe, before indo-european bastards came and fucked it up.
Havent it been for invader steppe assholes, Europe would be most superior continent in entire galaxies. Same case with central asia and south asia

#farmerpeopleunite #indo-europeansaretheenemy

[Leto]

ENF and Sardinians are not part of the modern European cluster. They are an ancient Med race that once formed their own cluster, Sardinians are the last remnants.
Sardinians are Italians. Giorgia Meloni is half Sardinian half Sicilian. Looks white to me
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/CD563-owv8SB0fxj_YCuzrbE3h1WAXejVTeYe_NXXYe9KzReXelFf8G0 Wn2Wym7dyxZ7Az3Nvt1_b4DMspZzvPVrICieVNya3By2u49-8XrfIGATDJt_Wjy3lkIx7JNJp_TAN7DExU776jdrzWwrT2-QFlxMVsN4l7VH2ttZ6OYyI8ZVzwxXAPx5fc3lJSuV0R7btHNNq QBi7XWa9RIWb5If2hBLOJLN765k

[Synapsid]

ENF and Sardinians are not part of the modern European cluster. They are an ancient Med race that once formed their own cluster, Sardinians are the last remnants.

Sardinians are not ENF. The term is outdated, the correct term is Post Glacial Near Easterners (PGNE) and there are 4 types of PGNEs and all are easily distinguishable from each other. Anatolian Hunter Gathers (AHG) were the PGNE that was the most WHG like and closest to Native Europeans (with only 20-27% basal, the rest is crown WHG like ancestry), the Natufians had 14% Iberomasurian ancestry probably from the Mushabian culture, which is non existent in AHG and made the natufians more divergent from native Europeans. And then you have the Iranian_N/Mesolithic Iranians who were more Basal and had a shit ton of ANE that AHG lacked. But Iran_N also had weird East Eurasian affinity. CHG was similar to Iran_N but had more (a lot more) ANE. EEF is not PGNE rather its more accurate to say that EEF has PGNE admixture. EEF are Anatolian Farmers and Native WHG, which exists in all Europeans. Sardinia are outliers not due to non-European ancestry but the lack of Steppe.

[Synapsid]

Sardinians are Italians. Giorgia Meloni is half Sardinian half Sicilian. Looks white to me
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/CD563-owv8SB0fxj_YCuzrbE3h1WAXejVTeYe_NXXYe9KzReXelFf8G0 Wn2Wym7dyxZ7Az3Nvt1_b4DMspZzvPVrICieVNya3By2u49-8XrfIGATDJt_Wjy3lkIx7JNJp_TAN7DExU776jdrzWwrT2-QFlxMVsN4l7VH2ttZ6OYyI8ZVzwxXAPx5fc3lJSuV0R7btHNNq QBi7XWa9RIWb5If2hBLOJLN765k

What is 'white' to you? Its a subjective term tbh. Laag and Ymyyakhtakh has very different opinions for example.

[J. Ketch]

Sardinians are Italians. Giorgia Meloni is half Sardinian half Sicilian. Looks white to me
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/CD563-owv8SB0fxj_YCuzrbE3h1WAXejVTeYe_NXXYe9KzReXelFf8G0 Wn2Wym7dyxZ7Az3Nvt1_b4DMspZzvPVrICieVNya3By2u49-8XrfIGATDJt_Wjy3lkIx7JNJp_TAN7DExU776jdrzWwrT2-QFlxMVsN4l7VH2ttZ6OYyI8ZVzwxXAPx5fc3lJSuV0R7btHNNq QBi7XWa9RIWb5If2hBLOJLN765k
You're in the wrong section.

[Leto]

What is 'white' to you? Its a subjective term tbh. Laag and Ymyyakhtakh has very different opinions for example.
Who the fuck is Laag and what does he know about genetics? The Ymy guy seems to be from Russia pretending to be Finnish. Both are probably outside of the mainstream Euro clusters :D
White means European, especially Western and Northern Euro. As if you didn't know that.

[Leto]

You're in the wrong section.
Okay, so you as a white supremacist don't accept Giorgia Meloni as white. xD She is a far-right politician by the way

[J. Ketch]

Sardinians are not ENF. The term is outdated, the correct term is Post Glacial Near Easterners (PGNE) and there are 4 types of PGNEs and all are easily distinguishable from each other. Anatolian Hunter Gathers (AHG) were the PGNE that was the most WHG like and closest to Native Europeans (with only 20-27% basal, the rest is crown WHG like ancestry), the Natufians had 14% Iberomasurian ancestry probably from the Mushabian culture, which is non existent in AHG and made the natufians more divergent from native Europeans. And then you have the Iranian_N/Mesolithic Iranians who were more Basal and had a shit ton of ANE that AHG lacked. But Iran_N also had weird East Eurasian affinity. CHG was similar to Iran_N but had more (a lot more) ANE. EEF is not PGNE rather its more accurate to say that EEF has PGNE admixture. EEF are Anatolian Farmers and Native WHG, which exists in all Europeans. Sardinia are outliers not due to non-European ancestry but the lack of Steppe.
I know they're not ENF. The fact that they have airports, cars, televisions, gives it away. I would argue they are outliers due to non-European ancestry though, their Mesolithic European ancestry is surely much less than mainstream Europeans.

[J. Ketch]

Okay, so you as a white supremacist don't accept Giorgia Meloni as white. xD She is a far-right politician by the way
STFU. This thread is about genetics, take your 'looks white' and Italian on paper arguments to another section.

[Token]

ENF and Sardinians are not part of the modern European cluster. They are an ancient Med race that once formed their own cluster, Sardinians are the last remnants.

ENF and Sardinians are clearly part of the European cluster. They are closest to Europeans and would join Europeans in any clustering algorithm.

[Adamastor]

ENF and Sardinians are clearly part of the European cluster. They are closest to Europeans and would join Europeans in any clustering algorithm.

Yeah, Creoda has a Nordicist agenda. But Sardinians are Europeans genetically and North Africans are part-Sardinian farmer, not that Sardinians are part African.

[Token]

West Med component is nothing. It is a made-up reference which peaks in SW Europeans.

[J. Ketch]

ENF and Sardinians are clearly part of the European cluster. They are closest to Europeans and would join Europeans in any clustering algorithm.
Literally because no one else is more related to them than modern Europeans, who have 25-60% of their DNA. They don't overlap with mainstream Europeans ergo they are not part of the European cluster. We're closer to some West Asians than to them.

[Token]

Literally because no one else is more related to them than modern Europeans, who have 25-60% of their DNA. They don't overlap with mainstream Europeans ergo they are not part of the European cluster. We're closer to some West Asians than to them.
Using this logic we could say Yamnaya and WHG were not European either. Then i'd agree with you.

[Synapsid]

I know they're not ENF. The fact that they have airports, cars, televisions, gives it away. I would argue they are outliers due to non-European ancestry though, their Mesolithic European ancestry is surely much less than mainstream Europeans.

True. The average Anglo is much more mesolithic than pretty much all med (and have higher EHG ancestry which none existant or low in Sardina). But remember there are differences in EEF populations in Europe. The EEF in the British and all other north western European's is Globular Amphora/TRB related, which has a higher mesolithic ancestry than Atlantic and Med farmers. even Britain native EEF are more med like than TRB/GA culture, they were wiped out by beaker folks. Strangely they never toke the women, hence high rate of U5b in the island.

[J. Ketch]

Using this logic we could say Yamnaya and WHG were not European either. Then i'd agree with you.
Well they weren't the same race as modern Europeans, and if they existed today isolated from the rest of us I wouldn't consider them as such. If you want to call them equally European fine but it just makes the term meaningless.

[Synapsid]

West Med component is nothing. It is a made-up reference which peaks in SW Europeans.

True. It's peaks in Sardinia and then Iberia. BTW if iberian s are half bell beaker half Native farmer then what happened to the native French farmers? There seem to be no dilution with them considering how Dutch like the beaker folks were.

[Token]

True. It's peaks in Sardinia and then Iberia. BTW if iberian s are half bell beaker half Native farmer then what happened to the native French farmers? There seem to be no dilution with them considering how Dutch like the beaker folks were.

These French Beakers were too early. They were probably recent migrants from around the North Sea.

[Synapsid]

Well they weren't the same race as modern Europeans, and if they existed today isolated from the rest of us I wouldn't consider them as such. If you want to call them equally European fine but it just makes the term meaningless.
WHG is such an old and divergent population but if they existed today they can pass virtually no where else but nothern Europe.

[Samnium]

Yeah, Creoda has a Nordicist agenda. But Sardinians are Europeans genetically and North Africans are part-Sardinian farmer, not that Sardinians are part African.

Having no Steppe = not being European :laugh:

Whereas Steppe were pretty much invaders.

[Synapsid]

These French Beakers were too early. They were probably recent migrants from around the North Sea.

I wonder what their interaction were with the local French farmers.

[Synapsid]

Having no Steppe = not being European :laugh:

Whereas Steppe were pretty much invaders.

Steppe had stronger genetic relations with European hunter gatherer s than the Anatolian farmers. Both Steppe and anatolian neolithic are mixed components but a half french half swede is closer to a Swede than a half Libyan and half Swede for example.

[Samnium]

Literally because no one else is more related to them than modern Europeans, who have 25-60% of their DNA. They don't overlap with mainstream Europeans ergo they are not part of the European cluster. We're closer to some West Asians than to them.

Do you think that Sardinians care one second about not being on the "european mainstream cluster" ? Antrotardism at his finest.

People here have to understand that nobody in real life would ever bat an eye about that. Not even professionnal geneticists that will laugh hearing your definition of what an european is or isn't.

By the way for you "european mainstream" = northern Europe.

[Token]

WHG is such an old and divergent population but if they existed today they can pass virtually no where else but nothern Europe.
Without light skin they surely wouldn't. I don't buy the 'unknown depigmentation genes' narrative.

[Token]

I wonder what their interaction were with the local French farmers.

Considering how the French look like they probably mixed a lot, but i am sure modern Frenchmen also have a lot of Celtic and Germanic admixture.

[Token]

Having no Steppe = not being European :laugh:

Whereas Steppe were pretty much invaders.

You can't deny that most Europeans are mostly descended these steppe invaders though. In that sense, they are the most European of all groups.

[Samnium]

Considering how the French look like they probably mixed a lot, but i am sure modern Frenchmen also have a lot of Celtic and Germanic admixture.

That's true. Gallic people were very numerous in Roman era and there were also Franks, Burgunds, Visigoths and several other Germanic tribes that came here.


You can't deny that most Europeans are mostly descended these steppe invaders though. In that sense, they are the most European of all groups.

One could make an argument by saying that true "indigenous" were WHGs and local Farmers.

I don't see European genetics only as a "mainstream", it's ridiculous.

By modeling, even up Northern Euros reach 50/55% Steppe no more, Central Euros lies around 38/45% so it's not "most" but a significant part.

Only outlying parts are East Meds, Sardinia and very northern or eastern populations that are "Uralic" shifted.

[Token]

That's true. Gallic people were very numerous in Roman era and there were also Franks, Burgunds, Visigoths and several other Germanic tribes that came here.

Imo Gaulish people = Bronze Age French + La Tené Celts.

[Token]

One could make an argument by saying that true "indigenous" were WHGs and local Farmers.

I don't see European genetics only as a "mainstream", it's ridiculous.

By modeling, even up Northern Euros reach 50/55% Steppe no more, Central Euros lies around 38/45% so it's not "most" but a significant part.

Only outlying parts are East Meds, Sardinia and very northern or eastern populations that are "Uralic" shifted.
That is only when you assume that Yamnaya were the original steppe invaders. The ones who expanded were Sredny Stog II and R1b-L51 found there will be published in a new paper soon. That will imply Europeans are more descended from steppe people than it was previously thought.

[Synapsid]

Without light skin they surely wouldn't. I don't buy the 'unknown depigmentation genes' narrative.
IRF4 genes peaks in the Irish and Orkney Islanders, one most palest people on this planet. It also frequent in WHG samples. IRF4 is linked to freckles and skin pigmentation. A population that survive low uv radiation and the last glacial maximum is darker than the Basal admired anatolian farmers, does that make sense to you? Populations with the highest WHG are often the lightest people on earth (finds, balts, Sandos etc)

[Samnium]

That is only when you assume that Yamnaya were the original steppe invaders. The ones who expanded were Sredny Stog II and R1b-P312 found there will be published in a new paper soon. That will imply Europeans are more descended from steppe people than it was previously thought.

I will be ready to read it then. So you think that levels of "Steppe ancestry" are probably even higher than the numbers that I have mentionned ?

[J. Ketch]

WHG is such an old and divergent population but if they existed today they can pass virtually no where else but nothern Europe.
Northern Europe and Sub-Saharan Africa.

[Token]

I will be ready to read it then. So you think that levels of "Steppe ancestry" are probably even higher than the numbers that I have mentionned ?

Yes, much higher, because Sredny_Stog II (Ukraine_Eneolithic in G25) had around 30% farmer admixture.

[Synapsid]

That is only when you assume that Yamnaya were the original steppe invaders. The ones who expanded were Sredny Stog II and R1b-L51 found there will be published in a new paper soon. That will imply Europeans are more descended from steppe people than it was previously thought.

Yamnaya also seemed fishy to me. Too west asian. It's EHG+CHG+further low level CHG.

[Samnium]

Yes, much higher, because Sredny_Stog II (Ukraine_Eneolithic in G25) had around 30% farmer admixture.

Ok, yes with 30% farmer admixture it will increase really the closeness to Europeans.

[Dna8]

I would prefer science to be less mysterious.

[Synapsid]

Northern Europe and Sub-Saharan Africa.
No. At most the darkest they get is north American native level (who and evolved in similar cold ice age climates).

[Token]

Yamnaya also seemed fishy to me. Too west asian. It's EHG+CHG+further low level CHG.

Do you think Sredny Stog II came from the steppes further east? Sredny Stog I (Ukrainian HG) was pretty much pure EHG.

[Synapsid]

Do you think Sredny Stog II came from the steppes further east? Sredny Stog I (Ukrainian HG) was pretty much pure EHG.

Yes and they also likely mixed narva like Hunter gatherers which increased in corded ware. Many brits or Irish like Grace O'molly can be modelled as part Narva.

[J. Ketch]

Do you think that Sardinians care one second about not being on the "european mainstream cluster" ? Antrotardism at his finest.

People here have to understand that nobody in real life would ever bat an eye about that. Not even professionnal geneticists that will laugh hearing your definition of what an european is or isn't.

By the way for you "european mainstream" = northern Europe.
I don't care what they care about. 'Professional geneticists' can laugh all they want, they use the same nomenclature to identify genetic profiles as I do. Personally I don't care what's called 'European', just in separating the wheat from the chaff.

The European mainstream covers most of Europe, otherwise I wouldn't call it that. You don't like it because half your kin isn't included.

[Coastal Elite]

What exactly constitutes "Mainstream Europe"? Open question

[Token]

Yes and they also likely mixed narva like Hunter gatherers which increased in corded ware. Many brits or Irish like Grace O'molly can be modelled as part Narva.

Maybe Narva-like was Volosovo. R1b-L51 will be there too.
IMO it was always obvious Yamnaya wasn't PIE. These guys only built some Kurgan in the Carpathian basin and that's it. CWC was always thought to be SS II expanding west (battle axes, corded pottery, etc)

[Synapsid]

Maybe Narva-like was Volosovo. R1b-L51 will be there too.
IMO it was always obvious Yamnaya wasn't PIE. These guys only built some Kurgan in the Carpathian basin and that's it. CWC was always thought to be SS II expanding west (battle axes, corded pottery, etc)

Yes I made post about this in this forum a month or two ago. The phenotypic SNP and very affinity to CHG that raised my eyes brows in suspicion

[J. Ketch]

What exactly constitutes "Mainstream Europe"? Open question
Put it this way, if you're closer to West Asians or MENA than you are to Central Europeans, you're not part of the European mainstream.

[marco]

No, don't use Gedmatch to model populations, use formal statistics. Anatolian farmers were only 14% Natufians/Levant_N related, they were hunter gatherers who locally developed Agriculture. They are actually more North Shifted than many S. European population once you factor out steppe ancestry. They are over-overwhelmingly closer to West Med, but you need WHG to be actually be West Med.


Put it this way, if you're closer to West Asians or MENA than you are to Central Europeans, you're not part of the European mainstream.

You’re the reason a lot of these Europeans that you don’t consider mainstream are having fits of anger and outbursts, because they’re trying to prove themselves to you

[Coastal Elite]

Put it this way, if you're closer to West Asians or MENA than you are to Central Europeans, you're not part of the European mainstream.

Yeah, I think the extreme fringes are objectivity outside of the mainstream, whether it be Sicilians and Cypriots or Finns and Balts. I guess you could also say places like France are Germany are the most middle of the road. It's everything else that is dicey and debatable in terms of mainstream IMO.

[Token]

Yeah, I think the extreme fringes are objectivity outside of the mainstream, whether it be Sicilians and Cypriots or Finns and Balts. I guess you could also say places like France are Germany are the most middle of the road. It's everything else that is dicey and debatable in terms of mainstream IMO.

How are Balts not mainstream European? They are just very drifted due to endogamy.

[Coastal Elite]

How are Balts not mainstream European? They are just very drifted due to endogamy.

Ok, lets forget the Balts and use Finns instead. It gets back to my original question of what exactly is mainstream Europe.

[kleenex]

East Mediterranean ancestry means Greek and rest of southeast Europe?

No East Med (I'm Greek mainlander and score 25% East Med) is a proxy for Aegean Island Greeks or those from East Med contingent which would include Cyprus on the periphery.

[Bred]

YOU guys have to realise that European are partly near eastern Farmers ! especially South European who are closer to west Asian than North euros
Average euro is 1/3 Near eastern farmers , 1/3 WHG and 1/3 Yamanya , now that varies depending on the region in Europe .. and about skin color it is obviously has to do with pegimtation and adaptation that needs Thouands of years to change and adapt to weather !

[Cumansky]

West Med= Black

[catgeorge]

Sardinians and Greeks have the oldest Ydna in Europe.

[kleenex]

West Med= Black


How do you come to that conclusion boy?

[Cumansky]

How do you come to that conclusion boy?

I use my brain, my nigga

[kleenex]

I use my brain, my nigga

So you're way off and goes to show that this forum is a drunken squirt fest.Here's my outlandish claim for the day; Slavs are non European.

[Cumansky]

So you're way off and goes to show that this forum is a drunken squirt fest.Here's my outlandish claim for the day; Slavs are non European.

So what we are nomads, what is the insult? Lol. Go pick those Turkish dates before *****ukh roll thru

[kleenex]

So what we are nomads, what is the insult? Lol. Go pick those Turkish dates before *****ukh roll thru

Dude I'm an American and my grandparents arrived her in the 1890s. The Greeks (and Italians) arrived in the US before the Slavs and had to essentially protect Slavs (Serbs/Croatians) from the KKK. So stop with the Med insults.

[Cumansky]

Dude I'm an American and my grandparents arrived her in the 1890s. The Greeks (and Italians) arrived in the US before the Slavs and had to essentially protect Slavs (Serbs/Croatians) from the KKK. So stop with the Med insults.

So pick those Turkish dates until 1890 Ellis Island sellout

[Synapsid]

YOU guys have to realise that European are partly near eastern Farmers ! especially South European who are closer to west Asian than North euros
Average euro is 1/3 Near eastern farmers , 1/3 WHG and 1/3 Yamanya , now that varies depending on the region in Europe .. and about skin color it is obviously has to do with pegimtation and adaptation that needs Thouands of years to change and adapt to weather !

You are stuck with 2016 genetics. Europeans are not part West Asian (which means Iran_N related by the way). The Anatolian farmers were extremely Sardinia like. Don't look at current Anatolian or modern Middle Easterners to see what the pre-cursors to EEF looked like. They were more north shifted than modern Sicilians!

[Leto]

The European mainstream covers most of Europe, otherwise I wouldn't call it that. You don't like it because half your kin isn't included.
Do you think Iberians are mainstream? I think Samnium would still end up plotting around Northern Italy or maybe Catalonia.

[marco]

Do you think Iberians are mainstream? I think Samnium would still end up plotting around Northern Italy or maybe Catalonia.
Lol you are evil you are know they are insecure

[Rocinante]

YOU guys have to realise that European are partly near eastern Farmers ! especially South European who are closer to west Asian than North euros
Average euro is 1/3 Near eastern farmers , 1/3 WHG and 1/3 Yamanya , now that varies depending on the region in Europe .. and about skin color it is obviously has to do with pegimtation and adaptation that needs Thouands of years to change and adapt to weather !

Southwestern europeans genetically are more close than northern europeans than west asians, though southeastern europeans (including western sicilians and calabrians) are closer to west asians.

[Rocinante]

No East Med (I'm Greek mainlander and score 25% East Med) is a proxy for Aegean Island Greeks or those from East Med contingent which would include Cyprus on the periphery.

Exactly, making it a half european component.

[Leto]

Lol you are evil you are know they are insecure
What are you trying to say?

You are thousands of miles away from any European anyway, dude.

[marco]

What are you trying to say?

You are thousands of miles away from any European anyway, dude.

I never claimed to be european. But for me mainstream European is silly anyone that’s within Europe is european there is no difference you are all the same race. Prior to you delusions not everyone wants to be european

[marco]

What are you trying to say?

You are thousands of miles away from any European anyway, dude.
Anyway stop trying to start race wars with each other

[Leto]

Anyway stop trying to start race wars with each other
Lol, you quoted my question that had not been addressed to you in the first place.

[Leto]

I never claimed to be european. But for me mainstream European is silly anyone that’s within Europe is european there is no difference you are all the same race. Prior to you delusions not everyone wants to be european
Yes but a few peripheral groups are indeed very unrepresenative of most Europeans.

[gixajo]

What would mean if you score very low in Metal Age Invaders in the ancient origins estimation of FTDNA?

Which European populations use to score low in this issue?

[FilhoV]

On ancient origins

I’m 62% Farmer
28% Hunter Gatherer
3% Non Euro
6% Metal Age Invader

[gixajo]

On ancient origins

I’m 62% Farmer
28% Hunter Gatherer
3% Non Euro
6% Metal Age Invader

Me:

3% metal Age Invader
54% Farmer
42% Hunter Gatherer
0% non-European

[mitalit]

Me:

3% metal Age Invader
54% Farmer
42% Hunter Gatherer
0% non-European

have you bought the FTDNA too?

[gixajo]

have you bought the FTDNA too?

No exactly, I export MyHeritage raw data to FTDNA , I didn´t buy the kit and didn´t make their DNA test.

What do you think about their estimations?

[Serbat14]

No East Med (I'm Greek mainlander and score 25% East Med) is a proxy for Aegean Island Greeks or those from East Med contingent which would include Cyprus on the periphery.
Is East Med a predominantly European or MENA ancestry?

[Bred]

You are stuck with 2016 genetics. Europeans are not part West Asian (which means Iran_N related by the way). The Anatolian farmers were extremely Sardinia like. Don't look at current Anatolian or modern Middle Easterners to see what the pre-cursors to EEF looked like. They were more north shifted than modern Sicilians!

I know that , modern anatolian and middle eastern do not look like Ancient anatolian farmers .. there is different between natufians farmers in the middle east and anatolian farmers .. beside I think that anatolian received alot of migration and genetics input from Iran and the middle east and central Asia but still anatolian farmers originated in the near east .

[Bred]

On ancient origins

I’m 62% Farmer
28% Hunter Gatherer
3% Non Euro
6% Metal Age Invader

Where are you from ?
if you are Spanish that non euro must be from ibero maurisian input .

[Bred]

Is East Med a predominantly European or MENA ancestry?

Its actually both .. East med share common ancestry between Levant and Greeks .. I think it has to do with the Neolithic farmers

[Bred]

have you bought the FTDNA too?

Weird I'm Algerian and I have higher metal age invader ( Yamanya ) than you .. I wonder why

[Synapsid]

I know that , modern anatolian and middle eastern do not look like Ancient anatolian farmers .. there is different between natufians farmers in the middle east and anatolian farmers .. beside I think that anatolian received alot of migration and genetics input from Iran and the middle east and central Asia but still anatolian farmers originated in the near east .

I would not see Neolithic Anatolians as near eastern at that point in history. Anatolia faced a population replacement in the chacolithic period where there was a influx in Iranian farmer related groups, CHG, Levantine farmers into Anatolia proper and by the end of the bronze age, and by then Anatolia was genetically near eastern/MENA, and that is when the Indo-Europeans migrated into Anatolia, creating the Hittites. Modern Sardinians and even Iberians/N. Italians are more Anatolian native than modern Turks. Two modern Groups are closests to Anatolian farmers, Europeans and NW Africans like Kabyles and riffians.

[Bred]

I would not see Neolithic Anatolians as near eastern at that point in history. Anatolia faced a population replacement in the chacolithic period where there was a influx in Iranian farmer related groups, CHG, Levantine farmers into Anatolia proper and by the end of the bronze age, and by then Anatolia was genetically near eastern/MENA, and that is when the Indo-Europeans migrated into Anatolia, creating the Hittites. Modern Sardinians and even Iberians/N. Italians are more Anatolian native than modern Turks. Two modern Groups are closests to Anatolian farmers, Europeans and NW Africans like Kabyles and riffians.

We have to do G25 to know that.. somehow i agree.. modern anatolian are not so close to anatolian farmers... you know even average north african is 45% anatolian farmers ... I would rather see it as Mediterranean common anecerty . but still originated in the near east .. during paloaithic times Sardinians had nothing to do with Neothlic farmers .. maybe phonetically they were Med with light olive skin and brown hair.. but they were still Caucasian .I think they had genes connected with high hairyness that's why most of med people are somehow more hairy than other population..
ps : I don't perceive turk as Anatolian even .. they are quite mixed

[Synapsid]

We have to do G25 to know that.. somehow i agree.. modern anatolian are not so close to anatolian farmers... you know even average north african is 45% anatolian farmers ... I would rather see it as Mediterranean common anecerty . but still originated in the near east .. during paloaithic times Sardinians had nothing to do with Neothlic farmers .. maybe phonetically they were Med with light olive skin and brown hair.. but they were still Caucasian .I think they had genes connected with high hairyness that's why most of med people are somehow more hairy than other population..
ps : I don't perceive turk as Anatolian even .. they are quite mixed

delete

[Synapsid]

We have to do G25 to know that.. somehow i agree.. modern anatolian are not so close to anatolian farmers... you know even average north african is 45% anatolian farmers ... I would rather see it as Mediterranean common anecerty . but still originated in the near east .. during paloaithic times Sardinians had nothing to do with Neothlic farmers .. maybe phonetically they were Med with light olive skin and brown hair.. but they were still Caucasian .I think they had genes connected with high hairyness that's why most of med people are somehow more hairy than other population..
ps : I don't perceive turk as Anatolian even .. they are quite mixed

Also Iberomasurians were 50% Anatolian Hunter Gatherer like. And no, I think hairiness in MENA comes with West Asian/Iranian farmer/CHG ancestry, as well as the big crooked nose and unibrows lol. Pure meds are less hairier than Armeriods. The neolithic Anatolians would have normal straight and sharp celestial noses. NW Africans for examples don't have big nasal projections like Middle Eastern Arabs, kurds, Iranians etc. Berber noses are more like SW Europeans.

[Samnium]

I don't care what they care about. 'Professional geneticists' can laugh all they want, they use the same nomenclature to identify genetic profiles as I do. Personally I don't care what's called 'European', just in separating the wheat from the chaff.

The European mainstream covers most of Europe, otherwise I wouldn't call it that. You don't like it because half your kin isn't included.

Personal argument that has nothing to do here.

I don't care about "mainstream Europe" or not, still only retarded would say that Sardinians aren't europeans because not in the so-called "mainstream european cluster".

Europe is firstly an identitarian, geographical and cultural "idea", the genetic aspect exist, sure, and I talk about it here regularly, but you shouldn't forget that Europe have his roots in Ancient Greece.

And Ancient greeks weren't in the "mainstream". You've surely seen Minoan or Mycenean results. They are far from being "european" according to your standards. And yet it would mean that almost all the occidental civilization was built upon the achievements of non-europeans.


Do you think Iberians are mainstream? I think Samnium would still end up plotting around Northern Italy or maybe Catalonia.

I'm probably outside of the "mainstream" because not clustering in Scandinavia. :laugh:

[Leto]

Personal argument that has nothing to do here.

I don't care about "mainstream Europe" or not, still only retarded would say that Sardinians aren't europeans because not in the so-called "mainstream european cluster".

Europe is firstly an identitarian, geographical and cultural "idea", the genetic aspect exist, sure, and I talk about it here regularly, but you shouldn't forget that Europe have his roots in Ancient Greece.

And Ancient greeks weren't in the "mainstream". You've surely seen Minoan or Mycenean results. They are far from being "european" according to your standards. And yet it would mean that almost all the occidental civilization was built upon the achievements of non-europeans.
He is an Anglo supremacist or Northwerstern European. I thought he was a white nationalist but then I realized he didn't care for many European countries. That is his right of course. And by the way, you do realize there is a number of most populous European countries/regions that make up the bulk of the so called white race. Germany, France, the British Isles, Benelux, Scandinavia, Iberia etc. North America and Australia are dominated by those peoples (except for Iberia).

[FilhoV]

Me:

3% metal Age Invader
54% Farmer
42% Hunter Gatherer
0% non-European

High hunter gatherer I’m assuming basque or Navarre

[gixajo]

High hunter gatherer I’m assuming basque or Navarre

Basque, but not all my ancestors are from here.

[J. Ketch]

I don't care about "mainstream Europe" or not, still only retarded would say that Sardinians aren't europeans because not in the so-called "mainstream european cluster".
You do care otherwise you wouldn't be always protesting. Genetically they are not in the European cluster (anymore than Turks are) and that's a fact.



Europe is firstly an identitarian, geographical and cultural "idea",
Then it means very little, and the blacks in France who adopt French culture are as European as you, and you shouldn't complain.



the genetic aspect exist, sure, and I talk about it here regularly, but you shouldn't forget that Europe have his roots in Ancient Greece.

And Ancient greeks weren't in the "mainstream". You've surely seen Minoan or Mycenean results. They are far from being "european" according to your standards. And yet it would mean that almost all the occidental civilization was built upon the achievements of non-europeans.
Once again you're bringing culture and your emotion into a discussion about genetics, and I don't accept your premise. Modern Europeans have their cultural and genetic roots in the Eastern European Steppes above everything else.

[Coastal Elite]

You do care otherwise you wouldn't be always protesting. Genetically they are not in the European cluster (anymore than Turks are) and that's a fact.



It's a matter of perspective. The fact that Sardinians plot outside this supposed mainstream may actually be testament to how unmixed they are (mostly EEF) compared to other Europeans.

[Samnium]

You do care otherwise you wouldn't be always protesting. Genetically they are not in the European cluster (anymore than Turks are) and that's a fact.

"You wouldn't be always protesting", I'm always here to reply to trolls and to people that want to make either Greeks/Italians/Sardinians as "not Europeans" or Middle-Easterners living in Europe.

Your "facts" are nothing more than biased ideas and a preconceived ideology.



Then it means very little, and the blacks in France who adopt French culture are as European as you, and you shouldn't complain.

Their ancestors didn't lived in France. + I've never said that genetics doesn't count, I only say that taking genetics as a rule to exclude some populations that live in geographical Europe because outside of a so-called "mainstream cluster" is ridiculous.

Nobody in real life would care about that. It's pointless, you're making "divisions" inside Europe while the greatest ennemies are those from other continents that come here.



Once again you're bringing culture and your emotion into a discussion about genetics, and I don't accept your premise.

It's funny that you say that because it's you that have brought my personal roots in this thread and that have tried visibly to accuse me of "bias" because being half southern italian.



Modern Europeans have their cultural and genetic roots in the Eastern European Steppes above everything else.

Thanks I didn't know that Greeks, Romans and Etruscans were Eastern European Steppe people. Don't try to be fool. There's maybe a bit of a "common" indo-european culture, but it's limited to some very peculiar examples, and actually civilizations like Minoans had much more contacts with Middle-East than with Eastern "Steppes". Yet the craddle of European civilization lies in the Med area whether you like or not.

[J. Ketch]

It's a matter of perspective. The fact that Sardinians plot outside this supposed mainstream may actually be testament to how unmixed they are (mostly EEF) compared to other Europeans.
They are relatively pure Anatolians/Meds.

[Samnium]

It's a matter of perspective. The fact that Sardinians plot outside this supposed mainstream may actually be testament to how unmixed they are (mostly EEF) compared to other Europeans.

Exactly, I wanted to make this point as well, if the whole continent diverges, it means that you remained isolated.

And he's clearly trolling about comparing Turkey and Sardinia !

A country that received lot of Central Asian/Levant/Iran-Neo input with an "unmixed" EEF place with some WHG, East Med and even Steppe.

:laugh:

[Scipio Africanus]

It's a matter of perspective. The fact that Sardinians plot outside this supposed mainstream.

They plot with others
https://i.postimg.cc/0N7tkrzL/x.png

[Leto]

Thanks I didn't know that Greeks, Romans and Etruscans were Eastern European Steppe people. Don't try to be fool. There's maybe a bit of a "common" indo-european culture, but it's limited to some very peculiar examples, and actually civilizations like Minoans had much more contacts with Middle-East than with Eastern "Steppes". Yet the craddle of European civilization lies in the Med area whether you like or not.
Yes, that's a ludicrous post-modern idea, usually pushed by New Worlders who lack a genuine ethnocultural identity due to globalization and liberal propaganda. In post-Soviet states it happens too. And don't get me started about religion, specifically one that starts with a C (which he hates).

[Samnium]

Yes, that's a ludicrous post-modern idea, usually pushed by New Worlders who lack a genuine ethnocultural identity due to globalization and liberal propaganda. In post-Soviet states it happens too. And don't get me started about religion, specifically one that starts with a C (which he hates).

As you said. This is most an american thing than anything else. Europeans from Europe (not those that lived all their life abroad and that don't have a clue about what Europe is) don't care about that.

Ethno-cultural identity is well above "genetics" for all european people. That doesn't means that "genetic" isn't important but really, I don't know if he really thinks that the collar worker would do researchs to know if he plot in Northern Europe or in Southern. :laugh:

This is anthrotardism to his maximum level. You can't be more pointless than that. Justifying his definition of Europe by a position in a PCA. Knowing by the way that population genetics and PCA aren't "absolute" and rather prone to be criticized often for their inacurracy.

[J. Ketch]

Nobody in real life would care about that. It's pointless, you're making "divisions" inside Europe while the greatest ennemies are those from other continents that come here.

I'm not making any divisions, you're getting mad because I describe the divisions that already exist. You have an ideological desire to pretend Europeans are the same, probably because of your mixed ancestry.



It's funny that you say that because it's you that have brought my personal roots in this thread and that have tried visibly to accuse me of "bias" because being half southern italian.

That's cause you are biased. You won't accept the basic fact that Southern Italians and now Sardinians are not like other Europeans.



Thanks I didn't know that Greeks, Romans and Etruscans were Eastern European Steppe people. Don't try to be fool. There's maybe a bit of a "common" indo-european culture, but it's limited to some very peculiar examples, and actually civilizations like Minoans had much more contacts with Middle-East than with Eastern "Steppes". Yet the craddle of European civilization lies in the Med area whether you like or not.
Greeks, Romans, Etruscans are a small minority of Europeans, and the first two spoke Indo-European, and were heavily influenced by Indo-European culture originating on the Steppe.

[J. Ketch]

Exactly, I wanted to make this point as well, if the whole continent diverges, it means that you remained isolated.

And he's clearly trolling about comparing Turkey and Sardinia !

A country that received lot of Central Asian/Levant/Iran-Neo input with an "unmixed" EEF place with some WHG, East Med and even Steppe.

:laugh:
Your famiglia are way closer to Turks and other MENAs than to Sardinians.

Distance to: Italian_Calabria
0.01354232 Italian_Campania
0.01555327 Italian_Naples
0.01724353 Italian_Basilica
0.01976880 Italian_Apulia
0.02034209 Sicilian_East
0.02058503 Italian_South
0.02191867 Greek_Crete
0.02270001 Greek_Kos
0.02302648 Italian_Jew
0.02338329 Maltese
0.02454775 Italian_Piedmont_o
0.02472809 Ashkenazi_Jew
0.02519537 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02761719 Sicilian_West
0.02777960 Italian_Molise
0.02817072 Greek_Smyrna
0.02849132 Sephardic_Jew
0.02993424 Romaniote_Jew
0.03353266 Italian_Lazio
0.03493389 Greek_Phokaia
0.03729847 Italian_Umbria
0.03795070 Italian_Marche
0.04324800 Cypriot
0.04502659 Moroccan_Jew
0.04615626 Greek
0.04723661 Italian_Tuscany
0.04736634 Syrian_Jew
0.04991180 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.05310539 Albanian
0.05373394 Libyan_Jew
0.05428950 Tunisian_Jew
0.05540773 French_Corsica
0.05773435 Italian_Piedmont
0.05937751 French_Corsica_o
0.05942075 Druze
0.05978502 Swiss_Italian
0.06200730 Lebanese_Druze
0.06319477 Karaite_Egypt
0.06339371 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06369932 Lebanese_Christian
0.06547120 Italian_Liguria
0.06749401 Italian_Lombardy
0.06884583 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06979413 Italian_Bergamo
0.07087306 Gagauz
0.07146036 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.07235221 Italian_Veneto
0.07365152 Syrian
0.07388201 Moldavian
0.07513935 Turkish_Kayseri
0.07728122 Turkish_Trabzon
0.07743102 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07843889 Georgian_Jew
0.07846909 Bulgarian
0.07893582 Armenian
0.07915240 Turkish_Adana
0.07961292 Turkish_Balkans
0.07989171 Spanish_Andalucia
0.08079500 Spanish_Menorca
0.08105028 Spanish_Extremadura
0.08105506 Italian_Northeast
0.08134530 Greek_Trabzon
0.08174697 Spanish_Eivissa
0.08183658 Spanish_Canarias
0.08207540 Portuguese
0.08208325 Spanish_Murcia
0.08249094 Turkish_Central
0.08253534 Iraqi_Jew
0.08320107 Assyrian
0.08337588 Spanish_Baleares
0.08368804 Macedonian
0.08369115 Iranian_Jew
0.08391293 Samaritan
0.08435410 Spanish_Mallorca
0.08512234 French_Prov_Marseille
0.08590756 Spanish_Alacant
0.08645388 Spanish_Galicia
0.08670091 Romanian
0.08696018 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08865523 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.08879304 French_Provence
0.08915952 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.08982092 Palestinian
0.09009791 Spanish_Valencia
0.09013343 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.09013385 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.09052526 Spanish_Girona
0.09067554 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.09114281 Spanish_Penedes
0.09240251 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.09242616 Spanish_Lleida
0.09292176 Spanish_Castello
0.09344936 Spanish_Aragon
0.09381578 Spanish_Pirineu
0.09393419 Spanish_Navarra
0.09401456 Serbian
0.09406725 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.09407566 Spanish_Cataluna
0.09414150 Turkish_Azer
0.09541360 Ezid
0.09580949 Spanish_Barcelones
0.09593087 Turkish_Northwest
0.09595291 Swiss_French
0.09615830 Georgian_Laz
0.09630207 Montenegrin
0.09685280 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.09708567 Spanish_Cantabria
0.09760746 Turkish_Aydin
0.09841138 Azeri
0.09937094 Turkish_Balikesir
0.09937494 Kurdish
0.09974746 Spanish_Asturias
0.10060871 Turkish_Southwest
0.10122976 French_Auvergne
0.10356812 Azeri_Dagestan
0.10395180 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.10462448 Sardinian

[Samnium]

Your famiglia are way closer to Turks and other MENAs than to Sardinians.

Distance to: Italian_Calabria
0.01354232 Italian_Campania
0.01555327 Italian_Naples
0.01724353 Italian_Basilica
0.01976880 Italian_Apulia
0.02034209 Sicilian_East
0.02058503 Italian_South
0.02191867 Greek_Crete
0.02270001 Greek_Kos
0.02302648 Italian_Jew
0.02338329 Maltese
0.02454775 Italian_Piedmont_o
0.02472809 Ashkenazi_Jew
0.02519537 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02761719 Sicilian_West
0.02777960 Italian_Molise
0.02817072 Greek_Smyrna
0.02849132 Sephardic_Jew
0.02993424 Romaniote_Jew
0.03353266 Italian_Lazio
0.03493389 Greek_Phokaia
0.03729847 Italian_Umbria
0.03795070 Italian_Marche
0.04324800 Cypriot
0.04502659 Moroccan_Jew
0.04615626 Greek
0.04723661 Italian_Tuscany
0.04736634 Syrian_Jew
0.04991180 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.05310539 Albanian
0.05373394 Libyan_Jew
0.05428950 Tunisian_Jew
0.05540773 French_Corsica
0.05773435 Italian_Piedmont
0.05937751 French_Corsica_o
0.05942075 Druze
0.05978502 Swiss_Italian
0.06200730 Lebanese_Druze
0.06319477 Karaite_Egypt
0.06339371 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06369932 Lebanese_Christian
0.06547120 Italian_Liguria
0.06749401 Italian_Lombardy
0.06884583 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06979413 Italian_Bergamo
0.07087306 Gagauz
0.07146036 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.07235221 Italian_Veneto
0.07365152 Syrian
0.07388201 Moldavian
0.07513935 Turkish_Kayseri
0.07728122 Turkish_Trabzon
0.07743102 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07843889 Georgian_Jew
0.07846909 Bulgarian
0.07893582 Armenian
0.07915240 Turkish_Adana
0.07961292 Turkish_Balkans
0.07989171 Spanish_Andalucia
0.08079500 Spanish_Menorca
0.08105028 Spanish_Extremadura
0.08105506 Italian_Northeast
0.08134530 Greek_Trabzon
0.08174697 Spanish_Eivissa
0.08183658 Spanish_Canarias
0.08207540 Portuguese
0.08208325 Spanish_Murcia
0.08249094 Turkish_Central
0.08253534 Iraqi_Jew
0.08320107 Assyrian
0.08337588 Spanish_Baleares
0.08368804 Macedonian
0.08369115 Iranian_Jew
0.08391293 Samaritan
0.08435410 Spanish_Mallorca
0.08512234 French_Prov_Marseille
0.08590756 Spanish_Alacant
0.08645388 Spanish_Galicia
0.08670091 Romanian
0.08696018 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08865523 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.08879304 French_Provence
0.08915952 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.08982092 Palestinian
0.09009791 Spanish_Valencia
0.09013343 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.09013385 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.09052526 Spanish_Girona
0.09067554 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.09114281 Spanish_Penedes
0.09240251 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.09242616 Spanish_Lleida
0.09292176 Spanish_Castello
0.09344936 Spanish_Aragon
0.09381578 Spanish_Pirineu
0.09393419 Spanish_Navarra
0.09401456 Serbian
0.09406725 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.09407566 Spanish_Cataluna
0.09414150 Turkish_Azer
0.09541360 Ezid
0.09580949 Spanish_Barcelones
0.09593087 Turkish_Northwest
0.09595291 Swiss_French
0.09615830 Georgian_Laz
0.09630207 Montenegrin
0.09685280 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.09708567 Spanish_Cantabria
0.09760746 Turkish_Aydin
0.09841138 Azeri
0.09937094 Turkish_Balikesir
0.09937494 Kurdish
0.09974746 Spanish_Asturias
0.10060871 Turkish_Southwest
0.10122976 French_Auvergne
0.10356812 Azeri_Dagestan
0.10395180 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.10462448 Sardinian

I don't care, and btw I'm 1/8 apulian + the "calabrian" sample of G25 isn't really representative and not average at all (2 people make this average :laugh: minimal number to call this an average :laugh:).



I'm not making any divisions, you're getting mad because I describe the divisions that already exist. You have an ideological desire to pretend Europeans are the same, probably because of your mixed ancestry.

I'm not saying that all Europeans are the same, you again miss the point. I only say that your whole rant about "mainstream cluster", as I've said is ridiculous.

You don't even live in Europe. Yes I'm a "euro-mutt" but I've lived since my birth in Europe and I know that people don't care about your "genetical" fantasies.


That's cause you are biased. You won't accept the basic fact that Southern Italians and now Sardinians are not like other Europeans.

They are what they are, they don't need a nordicist in a forum to come and saying that they are not european because they have minimal "Steppe".


Greeks, Romans, Etruscans are a small minority of Europeans, and the first two spoke Indo-European, and were heavily influenced by Indo-European culture originating on the Steppe.

Thanks but they did originated european civilization. As I've said "indo-european" influence in greek culture is minimal, and you need really to study how much Orient and Near Eastern influenced Greeks. Med area was connected in a cultural and commercial sense.

Same for Etruscans, you would hardly thing something "Indo-European" in the Orientalizing period.

Romans largely took Etruscans and Greek influences, together with some Italic/Proto-Italic (that weren't Indo-Europeans genetically by the way).

[gixajo]

Your famiglia are way closer to Turks and other MENAs than to Sardinians.

Distance to: Italian_Calabria
0.01354232 Italian_Campania
0.01555327 Italian_Naples
0.01724353 Italian_Basilica
0.01976880 Italian_Apulia
0.02034209 Sicilian_East
0.02058503 Italian_South
0.02191867 Greek_Crete
0.02270001 Greek_Kos
0.02302648 Italian_Jew
0.02338329 Maltese
0.02454775 Italian_Piedmont_o
0.02472809 Ashkenazi_Jew
0.02519537 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02761719 Sicilian_West
0.02777960 Italian_Molise
0.02817072 Greek_Smyrna
0.02849132 Sephardic_Jew
0.02993424 Romaniote_Jew
0.03353266 Italian_Lazio
0.03493389 Greek_Phokaia
0.03729847 Italian_Umbria
0.03795070 Italian_Marche
0.04324800 Cypriot
0.04502659 Moroccan_Jew
0.04615626 Greek
0.04723661 Italian_Tuscany
0.04736634 Syrian_Jew
0.04991180 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.05310539 Albanian
0.05373394 Libyan_Jew
0.05428950 Tunisian_Jew
0.05540773 French_Corsica
0.05773435 Italian_Piedmont
0.05937751 French_Corsica_o
0.05942075 Druze
0.05978502 Swiss_Italian
0.06200730 Lebanese_Druze
0.06319477 Karaite_Egypt
0.06339371 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06369932 Lebanese_Christian
0.06547120 Italian_Liguria
0.06749401 Italian_Lombardy
0.06884583 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06979413 Italian_Bergamo
0.07087306 Gagauz
0.07146036 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.07235221 Italian_Veneto
0.07365152 Syrian
0.07388201 Moldavian
0.07513935 Turkish_Kayseri
0.07728122 Turkish_Trabzon
0.07743102 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07843889 Georgian_Jew
0.07846909 Bulgarian
0.07893582 Armenian
0.07915240 Turkish_Adana
0.07961292 Turkish_Balkans
0.07989171 Spanish_Andalucia
0.08079500 Spanish_Menorca
0.08105028 Spanish_Extremadura
0.08105506 Italian_Northeast
0.08134530 Greek_Trabzon
0.08174697 Spanish_Eivissa
0.08183658 Spanish_Canarias
0.08207540 Portuguese
0.08208325 Spanish_Murcia
0.08249094 Turkish_Central
0.08253534 Iraqi_Jew
0.08320107 Assyrian
0.08337588 Spanish_Baleares
0.08368804 Macedonian
0.08369115 Iranian_Jew
0.08391293 Samaritan
0.08435410 Spanish_Mallorca
0.08512234 French_Prov_Marseille
0.08590756 Spanish_Alacant
0.08645388 Spanish_Galicia
0.08670091 Romanian
0.08696018 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08865523 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.08879304 French_Provence
0.08915952 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.08982092 Palestinian
0.09009791 Spanish_Valencia
0.09013343 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.09013385 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.09052526 Spanish_Girona
0.09067554 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.09114281 Spanish_Penedes
0.09240251 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.09242616 Spanish_Lleida
0.09292176 Spanish_Castello
0.09344936 Spanish_Aragon
0.09381578 Spanish_Pirineu
0.09393419 Spanish_Navarra
0.09401456 Serbian
0.09406725 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.09407566 Spanish_Cataluna
0.09414150 Turkish_Azer
0.09541360 Ezid
0.09580949 Spanish_Barcelones
0.09593087 Turkish_Northwest
0.09595291 Swiss_French
0.09615830 Georgian_Laz
0.09630207 Montenegrin
0.09685280 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.09708567 Spanish_Cantabria
0.09760746 Turkish_Aydin
0.09841138 Azeri
0.09937094 Turkish_Balikesir
0.09937494 Kurdish
0.09974746 Spanish_Asturias
0.10060871 Turkish_Southwest
0.10122976 French_Auvergne
0.10356812 Azeri_Dagestan
0.10395180 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.10462448 Sardinian

Where did those data obtain from?

Could you please post now the same data but now with your famiglia?

[Token]

Romans and Etruscans were mostly descended from Eastern European steppe people tho. Etruscans arrived in Italy from the Carpathian basin and what distinguishes them from Italic-speakers is Balkan Vucedol + Yamnaya admixture. Proto-Villanova and Etruscans were probably the actual descendants of Yamnaya culture.

[Leto]

Alright, they were all proto-Russians. Explains why the West has hated Russia for centuries xD
Even the Native Americans originated in what is now Russia :cool:

[Token]

Alright, they were all proto-Russians. Explains why the West has hated Russia for centuries xD
Even the Native Americans originated in what is now Russia :cool:

Bronze Age Russians were not like present-day Russians tho. People from the Atlantic coast all the way to the Ural mountains were most similar to Northwestern Europeans during the Bronze Age. Russians are mainly descended from migrants from around the Baltic.

[Samnium]

Romans and Etruscans were mostly descended from Eastern European steppe people tho. Etruscans arrived in Italy from the Carpathian basin and what distinguishes them from Italic-speakers is Balkan Vucedol + Yamnaya admixture. Proto-Villanova and Etruscans were probably the actual descendants of Yamnaya culture.

In Moots paper Italics were mostly EEF + some Iran. Etruscans show as well a strong sardinian drift from what I've seen (excluding outliers).


https://i.imgur.com/4XSywLa.jpg

Etruscans were likely autochtonous people, it's something well accepted by most of recent etruscologists.

[Leto]

Bronze Age Russians were not like present-day Russians tho. People from the Atlantic coast all the way to the Ural mountains were most similar to Northwestern Europeans during the Bronze Age. Russians are mainly descended from migrants from around the Baltic.
Well, the early Slavs are thought to have lived around Kiev and Southern Belarus, I believe. Not exactly Baltic.

[Token]

In Moots paper Italics were mostly EEF + some Iran. Etruscans show as well a strong sardinian drift from what I've seen (excluding outliers).


https://i.imgur.com/4XSywLa.jpg

Etruscans were likely autochtonous people, it's something well accepted by most of recent etruscologists.

I don't have my computer with me right now but try modelling Latins with Ukraine_Eneolithic, Anatolian and WHG. My guess is that steppe and Anatolian will be at almost the same level.

[Samnium]

I don't have my computer with me right now but try modelling Latins with Ukraine_Eneolithic, Anatolian and WHG. My guess is that steppe and Anatolian will be at almost the same level.

Good I can do that if you want.

What sample for Ukraine_Eneolithic ?

[Lucazk9]

West European is European.Although Neolithic europeans came from Anatolia..North africans and some levantines do score West Mediterranean but its probably due to some ancestors from Europe or ancient neolithic expansion.And keep in mind that no actual population is born in Europe.

[Token]

Good I can do that if you want.

What sample for Ukraine_Eneolithic ?

Isn't it Ukraine_En?

[Cristiano viejo]

From Spain to the Balkans.
Portugal exists! :yippee


The correct answer is that it means neither. It is pure Med.
So a pure Med is not an European, neither a North African...
Interesting...

[Samnium]

Isn't it Ukraine_En?

I haven't found it on the list on the eurogenes blog.


Portugal exists! :yippee


So a pure Med is not an European, neither a North African...
Interesting...

Africa starts at Calais. :laugh:

[Token]

I haven't found it on the list on the eurogenes blog.
Africa starts at Calais. :laugh:

Ok, i found something interesting. Etruscans had a lot more steppe than Romans, and it seems Romans looked nothing like present-day North Italians. They had a lot of WHG and low steppe. Now i'm sure Italians aren't just Iron Age Italic + Imperial Romans.

Target: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
Distance: 3.7882% / 0.03788158
56.4Anatolia_Neolithic
30.8UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En
9.8WHG
3.0Anatolia_Isparta_EBA

Target: ITA_Etruscan
Distance: 2.7073% / 0.02707299
52.8Anatolia_Neolithic
41.2UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En
6.0WHG

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 2.7655% / 0.02765516
46.2Anatolia_Neolithic
45.8UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En
4.6Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
3.4WHG

[SharpFork]

Ok, i found something interesting. Etruscans had a lot more steppe than Romans, and it seems Romans looked nothing like present-day North Italians. They had a lot of WHG and low steppe. Now i'm sure Italians aren't just Iron Age Italic + Imperial Romans.

Target: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
Distance: 3.7882% / 0.03788158
56.4Anatolia_Neolithic
30.8UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En
9.8WHG
3.0Anatolia_Isparta_EBA

Target: ITA_Etruscan
Distance: 2.7073% / 0.02707299
52.8Anatolia_Neolithic
41.2UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En
6.0WHG

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 2.7655% / 0.02765516
46.2Anatolia_Neolithic
45.8UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En
4.6Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
3.4WHG
You are right in saying they are not the same as Northern Italians but at the same time Northern Italians would have had more Steppe compared to Romans from the get go by virtue of having more Celtic genes, so if we account for the genetic difference existing in Iron Age Italy, account for different amount of East Med DNA and on top of that account for some Germanic and some North-to-South medieval movements we should be able to explain Italian genetics.

But honestly I don't see enough evidence for your 20% Germanic Italy theory, not before accounting for Celts.

[Token]

You are right in saying they are not the same as Northern Italians but at the same time Northern Italians would have had more Steppe compared to Romans from the get go by virtue of having more Celtic genes, so if we account for the genetic difference existing in Iron Age Italy, account for different amount of East Med DNA and on top of that account for some Germanic and some North-to-South medieval movements we should be able to explain Italian genetics.

But honestly I don't see enough evidence for your 20% Germanic Italy theory, not before accounting for Celts.

North-south movements inside Italy are exaggerated by Sikeliot and the like, IBD and rare haplotype sharing shows otherwise. And i'm not sure Celts were as steppe as you think they were, take a look at the Hallstatt and MBA Lech genomes. They were rather South French-like.

Central Italians are 10-15% Germanic when you account for Iron Age ancestry ressurgence after the fall of Rome, so North Italians must have more because they also have more Germanic uniparentals.

[SharpFork]

North-south movements inside Italy are exaggerated by Sikeliot and the like, IBD and rare haplotype sharing shows otherwise. And i'm not sure Celts were as steppe as you think they were, take a look at the Hallstatt and MBA Lech genomes. They were rather South French-like.

Central Italians are 10-15% Germanic when you account for Iron Age ancestry ressurgence after the fall of Rome, so North Italians must have more because they also have more Germanic uniparentals.
First you say North-South movement were rare but then you say Central Italians are 10-15% Germanic, how does that work? Somehow Germanic people expanded into Italy without ever mixing with the locals while they were moving as far south as Basilicata? Also Northern dialects existing in the south already show a sizeable movement must have happened after the Lombard assimilated into the population:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Basilicata

The Lech valley early and middle bronze age samples are about 60-42.5% Steppe and 12-10% WHG respectively, on top of that Hallstatt Bylany is 52.5% Steppe and 16% WHG.

Southern French samples from Provence have similar Steppe dna(52%) but less WHG(7%), in terms of WHG using the 4 reference groups you used it seems Central French samples fit better(Auvergne, Alsace, even French_Nord whatever that means) and their Steppe is also close to either of the Lech samples.

Altogether I don't see how Celts would seem this much southern given all the samples we have, believing they were so southern would imply a ridiculously big Germanic input all over Romance Europe that somehow left minor linguistic influence on said Romance speakers.

At the very least you cannot assume that Celts in Italy were exactly the same as Etruscans and one needs to account for potential Celtic influence to explain the North-South difference and considering the Normans and the expansion of Gallo-Italian speaking Lombards one needs also to account that the Germanic input was diluted in the south, like always happens with such generation-long migrations.

Edit: Also the urban vs rural dynamic is obviously also important, like Peterski theorized when the study was first published.

[Samnium]

North-south movements inside Italy are exaggerated by Sikeliot and the like, IBD and rare haplotype sharing shows otherwise. And i'm not sure Celts were as steppe as you think they were, take a look at the Hallstatt and MBA Lech genomes. They were rather South French-like.

Central Italians are 10-15% Germanic when you account for Iron Age ancestry ressurgence after the fall of Rome, so North Italians must have more because they also have more Germanic uniparentals.

Celts were probably kind like Republican Romans, lot of EEF and WHG, and almost inexistent Steppe.

And there was never a "North to South" movement in Italy like you said, except in Sicily where repopulation in Norman era involved Northern Italians and brought likely some Northern Euro "admixture".

Southern Italy has areas that have been untouched nearly for hundreds and hundreds of years, see just how visitors described tiny calabrians villages in the inland, they were at the periphery of everything. And they didn't go out of their "area of confidence" (i.e an area of 5km of radius).


Central French samples fit better(Auvergne, Alsace, even French_Nord whatever that means)

Alsace is northern France, as well as the reference "French_Nord" nothing to do with Central France.


Somehow Germanic people expanded into Italy without ever mixing with the locals while they were moving as far south as Basilicata? Also Northern dialects existing in the south already show a sizeable movement must have happened after the Lombard assimilated into the population

Lombards, Normans and several other tribes certainly played a role because most of southern Italians can be modeled with a small amount of Germanic. But it's very slight.

And for Central Italy I would buy more the theory of local resurgence rather than a shift in Middle Ages.

[Token]

First you say North-South movement were rare but then you say Central Italians are 10-15% Germanic, how does that work? Somehow Germanic people expanded into Italy without ever mixing with the locals while they were moving as far south as Basilicata? Also Northern dialects existing in the south already show a sizeable movement must have happened after the Lombard assimilated into the population:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Basilicata

The Lech valley early and middle bronze age samples are about 60-42.5% Steppe and 12-10% WHG respectively, on top of that Hallstatt Bylany is 52.5% Steppe and 16% WHG.

Southern French samples from Provence have similar Steppe dna(52%) but less WHG(7%), in terms of WHG using the 4 reference groups you used it seems Central French samples fit better(Auvergne, Alsace, even French_Nord whatever that means) and their Steppe is also close to either of the Lech samples.

Altogether I don't see how Celts would seem this much southern given all the samples we have, believing they were so southern would imply a ridiculously big Germanic input all over Romance Europe that somehow left minor linguistic influence on said Romance speakers.

At the very least you cannot assume that Celts in Italy were exactly the same as Etruscans and one needs to account for potential Celtic influence to explain the North-South difference and considering the Normans and the expansion of Gallo-Italian speaking Lombards one needs also to account that the Germanic input was diluted in the south, like always happens with such generation-long migrations.

Edit: Also the urban vs rural dynamic is obviously also important, like Peterski theorized when the study was first published.

The French regions you cited have far more steppe than those potential Celtic samples. The Lombards who got to Central Italy looked like Collegno_MA and Szolad_MA like the Lombardic sample from Crypta Balbini shows.

Celts being South French-like would only imply a fair amount of Germanic admixture in Central and North French, which is not absurd. North Italians look quite similar to Etruscans, and Gauls not being blatantly different from Iron Age Italians would explain it.

Keep in mind that the 10-15% Germanic into Central Italians scenario already takes into account the potential ressurgence of Iron Age ancestry. The relevant qpAdm model with Iron Age Romans, Imperial Romans and Germanic is feasible (posted in the Roman paper thread) and you can replicate it with Global25.