Which region has the highest amount of north african admixture between Iberia and Sicily ?

[Samnium]

Why would I have 'Atlantic Facade' agenda? I'm just noting that admixture up to 20-25% generally show up on phenotype. You can have even individual people mixed with Aboriginal, Onge or Central African Pygmies in 75/25 range looking white, but in any population, regardless of the admixture, 1/4 is too much to not show on a collective level.

On a collective range I can assure you that Southern Italians look like a regular southern euro group. Don't exagerate the exoticness of some areas to a very large region.

[Rocinante]

I definitely agree.

And most of the time you don't even see clearly the difference between Medium and Dark Brown.

Only with Light Brown. Light eyes are actually way more common.

I think medium brown (chesnut) can be seen different than regular dark brown. IMO.

[Nassbean]

I think you once said only pockets of Morocco remain unmixed while the largest urban areas are mulattoized.

French football star Mamadou Sakho is married to a Moroccan
https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article21300267.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_Mamadou-Sakho-Instagram-pics.jpg

no I said that in urban areas you will find plenty of haratin (descendent of slaves) but if we have to talk about the whole maghreb then no it didn't change that much

[Samnium]

I think medium brown (chesnut) can be seen different than regular dark brown. IMO.

It's not something very noticeable and anyway it's dark hair like amber eyes are "dark eyes" but at the tail end of the spectrum.

[Samnium]

I think medium brown (chesnut) can be seen different than regular dark brown. IMO.

It's not something very noticeable and anyway it's dark hair like amber eyes are "dark eyes" but at the tail end of the spectrum.

[Duffmannn]

actually some moriscos went there and some moors after the berber revolt of 740 went there too and converted to christianity. There is also the berber soldiers who settled there during the punic and roman era for example if I remember correctly some berber soldiers fought with the romans at the siege of Numantia in 134 BC and in reward they receive some fields in northern iberia

A tiny (and historically doubful) group of berbers still don't explain why it happens in the entire Galicia, Asturias and Cantabria. And why the frequence is way lower in Andalousia that was under islamic influence (but not rule, most times there were independent muslim hispanic states not subjected to foreign rule, something that all people doesn't know or doesn't want to know)

[Nassbean]

A tiny (and historically doubful) group of berbers still don't explain why it happens in the entire Galicia, Asturias and Cantabria. And why the frequence is Way lower in Andalousia that was under islámico influence (but not rule, most times there were independentistas muslim hispanic states not subjected to foreign rule, something that all people doesn't know or doesn't want to know)

First of all I repeated it multiple times before but andalusia has less NA because of the expulsion of moriscos before that andalusians had way more NA than other iberians. Secondly moriscos were not a tiny group at all and thousands of them settled in the north and in Portugal. As for ancient times maybe the berbers who settled there were far more numerous than what we thought or maybe we have to wait for more studies to explain it

[SharpFork]

Because the most "northafrican" regions in Spain are Asturias and Galicia, where there was never any northafrican rule or migration. 0.

There's even one valley in Cantabria, Valle del Pas, where the "northafrican" admixture is atonishing. But there was any northafrican rule there too. You can write in Google images "pasiegos" to know how they look.
At the same time I see that general samples from before the Roman era all generally lack North African admixture, we can explain the North African admixture in Spain by using the Roman era and ultimately there were actual Muslims in Galicia:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270081410_Sarracenos_moros_mudejares_y_moriscos_en _la_Galicia_medieval

On the other hand how do you explain that there is so little NA specific admixture in so many Iron age and Bronze age samples if 75% of it was ancient like that guy claims?

[SharpFork]

So what? I did that on purpose, to show that recent berber admixture is minimal once you take into account the assimilation of christian north africans in the roman era.



i found 3 moroccan regions on the spreadsheet and tried them all at once. this one gave the highest berber.
Christian North Africans were basically genetically Berbers too, what sense does it make to exclude the Punic-Roman effect given the context?
Plus you use Iberia Northeast 8-12 century CE too which has 2% and Southeast 10-16 century which has 9%, at least exclude those.

I would just use all of the 3 or rather use the Iberomaurusian they have as the basis to estimate the overall adxmiture in Iberians, rather than use directly modern samples.

[Duffmannn]

Anyways, moriscos were islamized hispanics (full-hispanics), the genetics have debunked the idea that they were northafrican.

[Duffmannn]

At the same time I see that general samples from before the Roman era all generally lack North African admixture, we can explain the North African admixture in Spain by using the Roman era and ultimately there were actual Muslims in Galicia:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270081410_Sarracenos_moros_mudejares_y_moriscos_en _la_Galicia_medieval

On the other hand how do you explain that there is so little NA specific admixture in so many Iron age and Bronze age samples if 75% of it was ancient like that guy claims?

You are a very intense troll.

[Nassbean]

Anyways, moriscos were islamized hispanics (full-hispanics), the genetics have debunked the idea that they were northafrican.

it depends some of them had a big north african component

[Duffmannn]

it depends some of them had a big north african component

As sicilians or greek islanders.

But they were not northafrican inmigrants as many believe. In this regard they are similar to actual bosnians or albanians: islamized natives.

And they were expelled and do not exist anymore.

[Nassbean]

As sicilians or greek islanders.

But they were not northafrican inmigrants as many believe. In this regard they are similar to actual bosnians or albanians: islamized natives.

And they were expelled and do not exist anymore.

no they had a bigger north african component I will not post the same pic again but check my previous answers. And yes you expelled your own people

[Gota_type_]

I don't see anyone trolling here, it was just a civilized discussion. These Spaniards are the ones who chimped out after facing truth.

The only ones that are capable of "chimping out" are you, africans.

And being civilized does not equal to being correct. You moros should stay in your muslim hellholes instead of destroying Europe.




Okay. I didn't know you were Belgian. I thought you were straight from Morocco.

He is not belgian. He is moroccoan. Would I be moroccoan if I was born in Morocco? Not at all. Just on papers but not in all the rest cathegories. In fact, the moor is defending islam and is attacking Europe whenever he has an opportunity. He says his parents were to live to belgium to have "a better way of life". Right, because muslim countries are shitty places to live, yet he defends islam which is the main reason why their countries are the worst on Earth. Totally ridiculous this people are. And northafricans are the worst people in Western Europe, the most indeserables. Don´t make them think that they are "Europeans". They don´t consider themshelves Europeans and We will never consider them to be Europeans.

[Leto]

He is not belgian. He is moroccoan. Would I be moroccoan if I was born in Morocco? Not at all. Just on papers but not in all the rest cathegories. In fact, the moor is defending islam and is attacking Europe whenever he has an opportunity. He says his parents were to live to belgium to have "a better way of life". Right, because muslim countries are shitty places to live, yet he defends islam which is the main reason why their countries are the worst on Earth. Totally ridiculous this people are. And northafricans are the worst people in Western Europe, the most indeserables. Don´t make them think that they are "Europeans". They don´t consider themshelves Europeans and We will never consider them to be Europeans.
I am very much against Islam myself, just saying. If he does so, I condemn that.
He is not an ethnic Belgian obviously, I don't think he disagrees.

[Gota_type_]

At the same time I see that general samples from before the Roman era all generally lack North African admixture, we can explain the North African admixture in Spain by using the Roman era and ultimately there were actual Muslims in Galicia:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270081410_Sarracenos_moros_mudejares_y_moriscos_en _la_Galicia_medieval

On the other hand how do you explain that there is so little NA specific admixture in so many Iron age and Bronze age samples if 75% of it was ancient like that guy claims?

People get confused about the words: moriscos, mudejares, mozárabes, and so on. Many "muslims" (native Spaniards in the half south) went to live to the half north to escape from the real muslims, and then changed religion. But, they were pure Spaniards to begin with. So, ZERO muslims were in Galicia, or Asturias or in the north.

Just after 1492, some tens of thousands of muslims (moriscos) were allowed to live in the south. After the Revuelta de las Alpujarras they were taken to the half north, but in the end ALL of them were kicked out in 1609 and taken to the port of Valencia. They are contemporary chronicles and paintings that show how all moriscos were kicked out of Spain in 1609.

So, stop selling the idea that there were muslims in the half north of Spain. Even in the worst times of Al-Andalus the only muslims that were in the HALF north of Spain were a few pockets of bereberes in garrisons to alert about when the Christian army was heading south. And they were all killed when Reconquista. Zero muslims inhabited the half north of Spain. The maps that show as if all Spain was under muslims rule are basically fake. It just shows some kind of temporary dominance but they are not demographic maps. As with the maps of the Huns in Europe. They are not demographic maps, they just show their itineraries, and those maps are far from accurate because they paint all the countries as if they were conquered and full of huns, when in reality most of the rural places were totally free of Huns, as in Spain, most of the rural areas of Spain never saw a moor in their lives. So, the maps are made for retardeds.

[Nassbean]

I am very much against Islam myself, just saying. If he does so, I condemn that.
He is not an ethnic Belgian obviously, I don't think he disagrees.

that guy is crazy don't waste your time with him I even said multiple times before that i'm not muslim...he's mentally sick

[SharpFork]

You are a very intense troll.
You didn't answer the question, was this NA-like admixture magically confined to few valleys in Asturia since God knows when and magically spread out during the Roman era and Umayyad era as to simulate an actual North African input?


The only ones that are capable of "chimping out" are you, africans.
Why are you people so insecure? How does having 10% North African admixture in some regions change anything? Nobody which is actually arguing factually is using it as a way to insult you .


And being civilized does not equal to being correct. You moros should stay in your muslim hellholes instead of destroying Europe.
You realize Nassbean is the only North African in the entire thread? You are arguing with Italo-Brazilians, Frenchies and Russians there.

[SharpFork]

People get confused about the words: moriscos, mudejares, mozárabes, and so on. Many "muslims" (native Spaniards in the half south) went to live to the half north to escape from the real muslims, and then changed religion. But, they were pure Spaniards to begin with. So, ZERO muslims were in Galicia, or Asturias or in the north.
How do you know that? It's just an assumption..
Regardless, even with only this south-to-north migration of native Iberians would have increase the NA admixture in the North, or are you arguing that all the NA admixture we see in all those "Southeast" samples from the Roman imperial period to Late Antiquity is irrelevant or disappeared?


Just after 1492, some tens of thousands of muslims (moriscos) were allowed to live in the south. After the Revuelta de las Alpujarras they were taken to the half north, but in the end ALL of them were kicked out in 1609 and taken to the port of Valencia. They are contemporary chronicles and paintings that show how all moriscos were kicked out of Spain in 1609.
Plenty of scholars argued that many remained or returned, otherwise what were those crypto-Muslims or crypto-Jews? New converts? Others(especially middle and upper class ones) mixed with old Christians and simply lost their distinctiveness by the time the expulsions came. Many children of muslim families were separated during the waves of deportations and forced conversions too.



So, stop selling the idea that there were muslims in the half north of Spain. Even in the worst times of Al-Andalus the only muslims that were in the HALF north of Spain were a few pockets of bereberes in garrisons to alert about when the Christian army was heading south. And they were all killed when Reconquista.
So where does all this NA admixure in the West come? It's not there in the pre-Roman metal ages and you said it yourself.

[Samnium]

As sicilians or greek islanders.


Just lol, I think you've never seen greek islander results it's not possible otherwise.

They consistently score 0% North-African but elevated Levantine/Anatolian (Northern West Asian) DNA, I don't know where you read that greek islanders have north-african admixture.

[Leto]

Just lol, I think you've never seen greek islander results it's not possible otherwise.

They consistently score 0% North-African but elevated Levantine/Anatolian (Northern West Asian) DNA, I don't know where you read that greek islanders have north-african admixture.
I think Crete was once overrun by Arabs, wasn't it?

[Kamal900]

I think Crete was once overrun by Arabs, wasn't it?

Yeah, but the rule was only brief.

[Samnium]

I think Crete was once overrun by Arabs, wasn't it?

Crete are more Northern West Asian shifted than anything. They don't have generally speaking significant north-african admixture.

[Kamal900]

Crete are more Northern West Asian shifted than anything. They don't have generally speaking significant north-african admixture.

Honestly, they don't have any NA admixture, and I have seen their G25 where they only score Levantine and Caucasian ancestries of their west asian admixture.

[Samnium]

Honestly, they don't have any NA admixture, and I have seen their G25 where they only score Levantine and Caucasian ancestries of their west asian admixture.

Exactly. Like most of Greek Islanders except some exceptions.

[Synapsid]

Culturally? Not sure. On the right for instance the Japanese have a far more favorable reputation than the Eyrabs. Japan is a Western style democracy with safe and prosperous cities, not a barabric war-torn and low IQ hellhole.

Both Europeans and Arab have civilizational roots in Mesopotamia and Egypt. Japanese do not. Their civilization root is sinitic.

[Synapsid]

Which doesn't mean much. Both australoid and mongoloid are considered east Eurasian admixture for example.

Yes. Lazardis and Reich put them in the "Eastern Non Africa" cluster.They also share similar mtDNA and yDNA.
I opened a thread earlier on this topic:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?314731-Origins-of-East-Asians

[Synapsid]

Only on an european scale which is very tiny. See just gedmatch of Asians or Africans... You would see distances over 40.00 in the top 20 populations, something that you don't see in Middle-East or in Europe.

Definitely not three different races.

ENF, EHG/ANE and WHG seperated from each other by 30,000-40,000 years. That not close. And those components are not purely "west eurasia" either. ENF /PGNE has large basal eurasian admixture, which shifts them closer to SSA population compared to European HG and ANE. EHG is 75% ANE and ANE is a quater East Eurasian. Steppe closer affinities to Native Americans compared to ENF and WHG. Only WHG is purely west eurasians.

[Synapsid]

Again why are you lying ? We have the autosomal results of guanches who were isolated from any arab invasions or slave trade and they are similar to modern north africans :

https://i.imgur.com/Kd8A6ks.png

so no we aren't mulattoes and we didn't change that much stop your propaganda you filthy racist.

As a Amazigh do you see guanches as kin?

[Nassbean]

As a Amazigh do you see guanches as kin?

Of course but modern canarians are not guanches or berbers despite some of them claiming the amazigh identity :

https://i.imgur.com/eGBHYHo.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LVw072D.jpg

I've talked with plenty of them and they really feel indigenous to these islands and despise Spain...but they genetically have almost nothing to do with guanches.

[Rocinante]

Of course but modern canarians are not guanches or berbers despite some of them claiming the amazigh identity :

https://i.imgur.com/eGBHYHo.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LVw072D.jpg

I've talked with plenty of them and they really feel indigenous to these islands and despise Spain...but they genetically have almost nothing to do with guanches.

In your opinion, how much guanche blood do canarians need to deserve the label guanche?

[Synapsid]

I think genetics and phenotype generally correlate; average Southern Euro is already a dark phenotype for European standards (most Europeans are not Southern Europeans) and when you add 25%+ of some ''exotic'' admixture it becomes difficult to say there's no correlation to phenotype. Having 5-10% of some stuff is one thing, 20%+ another completely different.

Would you say that the Average Mexican is more turkic than turks.

[Synapsid]

Of course but modern canarians are not guanches or berbers despite some of them claiming the amazigh identity :

https://i.imgur.com/eGBHYHo.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LVw072D.jpg

I've talked with plenty of them and they really feel indigenous to these islands and despise Spain...but they genetically have almost nothing to do with guanches.

Do you wish you could have them conquest?

[Nassbean]

In your opinion, how much guanche blood do canarians need to deserve the label guanche?

45-50%

[Nassbean]

Do you wish you could have them conquest?

Yes I hope those islands will be inhabited by berbers again ...they complain about replacement in europe but they replaced plenty of other populations.

[Synapsid]

Yes I hope those islands will be inhabited by berbers again ...they complain about replacement in europe but they replaced plenty of other populations.

Which berbers are closest to Guanches? Souss? Riffians?

[Nassbean]

Which berbers are closest to Guanches? Souss? Riffians?

it was quite diverse but most of them were close to modern north moroccans

[Synapsid]

it was quite diverse but most of them were close to modern north moroccans

So riffians should migrate to canaria huh ;)

[Nassbean]

So riffians should migrate to canaria huh ;)

Actually a massive migration won't even be a problem because most canarians really view themselves as berbers lol so it's like going back home or something like that

[Synapsid]

Actually a massive migration won't even be a problem because most canarians really view themselves as berbers lol so it's like going back home or something like that

What about their mythology and religion? Is it better preserve than mainland NA?

[Adamm]

Which berbers are closest to Guanches? Souss? Riffians?

I think North Moroccans are the closest to the Guanchez:

https://i.imgur.com/qvoWLGW.png

[Nassbean]

What about their mythology and religion? Is it better preserve than mainland NA?

not really they are christian and their culture has nothing to do with the berber one ...I've seen some of them writing in tifinagh but that's it (they are a minority)

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Actually a massive migration won't even be a problem because most canarians really view themselves as berbers lol so it's like going back home or something like that

Most Canarians do not view themselves as Berbers...

"Según el barómetro del Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas del año 2012, el 24% de la población de las islas se siente más canaria que española, o únicamente canaria 12,1%, frente al 7% que se siente únicamente española. La opción más amplia es la de quienes se sienten tan españoles como canarios, con un 53,9%.12​ Con estos datos Canarias registra uno de los niveles de identificación con la autonomía más altos de España, siendo la cuarta comunidad en este sentido, por detrás de Cataluña, el País Vasco y Galicia."

Basically the majority sees themselves as regular Spanish, with a tiny minority identifying as Canarian over Spanish.

Massive immigration would be problematic for the Canary Islands and I doubt its inhabitants would want to have the same living standards of Morocco.

[Nassbean]

Most Canarians do not view themselves as Berbers...

"Según el barómetro del Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas del año 2012, el 24% de la población de las islas se siente más canaria que española, o únicamente canaria 12,1%, frente al 7% que se siente únicamente española. La opción más amplia es la de quienes se sienten tan españoles como canarios, con un 53,9%.12​ Con estos datos Canarias registra uno de los niveles de identificación con la autonomía más altos de España, siendo la cuarta comunidad en este sentido, por detrás de Cataluña, el País Vasco y Galicia."

Basically the majority sees themselves as regular Spanish, with a tiny minority identifying as Canarian over Spanish.

Massive migration would be problematic for the Canary Islands and I doubt its inhabitants would want to have the same living standards of Morocco.

Unlike you I know plenty of canarians IRL and online (there are plenty of them on our groups) and they all say the same thing about their people so your quote is meaningless to me and I don't care about what they want these islands will be berbers again We will replace the colonisers. Focus on Portugal Mr. Silva

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Unlike you I know plenty of canarians IRL and online (there are plenty of them on our groups) and they all say the same thing about their people so your quote is meaningless to me and I don't care about what they want these islands will be berbers again We will replace the colonisers. Focus on Portugal Mr. Silva

You know the loonies over internet forums that represent an insignificant minority. The majority of Canarian separatist organizations don't even support any Berberist cause or identity, if anything they just want more autonomy or sovereignty for the archipelago.

You have no business over the Canary Islands anymore than I do (actually I have more than you do since the Portuguese were the first to settle on the archipelago and later on the possession was attributed to the kingdom of Castile by Pope Clement VI).

[Nassbean]

You know the loonies over internet forums that represent an insignificant minority. The majority of Canarian separatist organizations don't even support any Berberist cause or identity, if anything they just want more autonomy or sovereignty for the archipelago.

You have no business over the Canary Islands anymore than I do (actually I have more than you do since the Portuguese were the first to settle on the archipelago and later the possession was attributed to the kingdom of Castile by Pope Clement VI).

lol you clearly don't know what you're talking about because most canarians I know are against those separatists/independentists...stop your comedy guanches were berbers and had absolutely nothing to do with you. Go jerk about your past elsewhere.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

lol you clearly don't know what you're talking about because most canarians I know are against those separatists/independentists...stop your comedy guanches were berbers and had absolutely nothing to do with you. Go jerk about your past elsewhere.

Guanches were ethnically and culturally cleansed by Spanish settlers. They are not coming back and there's literately nothing you can do about it.

On a second thought, it would be hilarious and quasi-comical to see Morocco try anything over the archipelago. It can not even control the Western Sahara, let alone engage in an open conflict with Spain.

[Kamal900]

Guanches were ethnically and culturally cleansed by Spanish settlers. They are not coming back and there's literately nothing you can do about it.

On a second thought, it would be hilarious and quasi-comical to see Morocco try anything over the archipelago. It can not even control the Western Sahara, let alone engage in an open conflict with Spain.

Poor Sahrawis. They're the only people that I have sympathy for along with the Copts.

[Nassbean]

Guanches were ethnically and culturally cleansed by Spanish settlers. They are not coming back and there's literately nothing you can do about it.

On a second thought, it would be hilarious and quasi-comical to see Morocco try anything over the archipelago. It can not even control the Western Sahara, let alone engage in an open conflict with Spain.

Who talked about an open conflict ? :rolleyes: We are currently invading spain in front of your eyes same for France, Belgium and italy in 100/200 years these lands will be around 50/75% NA while you're behind your screen jerking about portuguese defeating a bunch of primitive berbers...pathetic.

Also do not even talk about the western sahara it's way more complex than what you think ...moroccan politicians are smart they know that if they enter in an open conflict with the polisario front the UN will give rights to them. That's why they have to play the diplomats and waiting the ennemies to do some mistakes. If morocco wanted to submit the whole area be sure than in 24H it will be ours.

Spain will never engage an open conflict with such a strong army :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4WjY4giPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esGOFriIYtc

It will need the help of the european union. You think war is like in video games ?

[Cristiano viejo]

I personally haven’t seen any Sicilians score that amount, but generally the average for east Sicilians is something like ~5%.
Maybe a little higher in west Sicilians, who also score some minor amount of Bedouin.
Most of the Berber related ancestry probably coming from Carthaginian settlements and not Aghlabid emirate.

In east Iberians it’s also around ~5%. In west Iberians it’s more like ~10% peaking in Galicians. Most of it is from ummayad rule but some I’d imagine came earlier from Roman and Carthaginian settlements as well.

Basques of course only scoring noise level.
Cool story, Muslims never conquered Galicia.

Now post any Galician result where he/she scores 10% NA or did not happen.

[Cristiano viejo]

I've seen a Trapani result reaching 9% North-African on 23andme, never seen that with any other european. So Sicilians can have very outlying people but overall there's more NA admixture in Iberia I would say, and Sicilians have strong influences from East Med/Caucasus region more than North-African or Arabian.
.

Great contradiction :rolleyes:

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Who talked about an open conflict ? :rolleyes: We are currently invading spain in front of your eyes same for France, Belgium and italy in 100/200 years these lands will be around 50/75% NA while you're behind your screen jerking about portuguese defeating a bunch of primitive berbers...pathetic.

Finally you are showing your true colors. The only thing that Moroccans are doing in Spain is helping the ascension of VOX...so thank you for that. Hopefully you keep on having that subhuman "we will replace you" mentality because that is what is empowering currently the Iberian nationalist front. As for the Portuguese, they just settled on the archipelago. Castilians were the ones that subdued and assimilated the Guanche people but as usual you falsely claim to have historical knowledgeable of something you are actually clueless about.

Powerful Moroccan army, lol. Spain has no need to engage in a open conflict with Morocco. You are the ones that have disputed territories with Spain (Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilha) and do nothing about it with your "powerful" army.

[Synapsid]

Unlike you I know plenty of canarians IRL and online (there are plenty of them on our groups) and they all say the same thing about their people so your quote is meaningless to me and I don't care about what they want these islands will be berbers again We will replace the colonisers. Focus on Portugal Mr. Silva

So this is your reconqista?

[Kamal900]

Finally you are showing your true colors. The only thing that Moroccans are doing in Spain is helping the ascension of VOX...so thank you for that. Hopefully you keep on having that subhuman "we will replace you" mentality because that is what is empowering currently the Iberian nationalist front. As for the Portuguese, they just settled on the archipelago. Castilians were the ones that subdued and assimilated the Guanche people but as usual you falsely claim to have historical knowledgeable of something you are actually clueless about.

Powerful Moroccan army, lol. Spain has no need to engage in a open conflict with Morocco. You are the ones that have disputed territories with Spain (Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilha) and do nothing about it with your "powerful" army.

I'd really love to see these filthy Berbers and their Arabized kin out of Europe. I really do hate these people with a passion.

[Nassbean]

So this is your reconqista?

hahah no we don't use these cringy terms

[Nassbean]

Finally you are showing your true colors. The only thing that Moroccans are doing in Spain is helping the ascension of VOX...so thank you for that. Hopefully you keep on having that subhuman "we will replace you" mentality because that is what is empowering currently the Iberian nationalist front. As for the Portuguese, they just settled on the archipelago. Castilians were the ones that subdued and assimilated the Guanche people but as usual you falsely claim to have historical knowledgeable of something you are actually clueless about.

Powerful Moroccan army, lol. Spain has no need to engage in a open conflict with Morocco. You are the ones that have disputed territories with Spain (Canary Islands, Ceuta, Melilha) and do nothing about it with your "powerful" army.

yes my true colors I'm a blood thirsty moor :thumb001: Also how naive are you to believe that VOX or any right party will expulsed or stop the migration waves ...no no you should respect the human rights :rolleyes: Yes the portugueses "just" settled and faced no resistance and it's you who have the knowledge apparently lol.

Yes moroccans have almost never been defeated by any iberian power ...moroccans always have the advantages when it comes to combat your men are weak as hell this is the reality.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

yes my true colors I'm a blood thirsty moor :thumb001: Also how naive are you to believe that VOX or any right party will expulsed or stop the migration waves ...no no you should respect the human rights :rolleyes: Yes the portugueses "just" settled and faced no resistance and it's you who have the knowledge apparently lol.

Yes moroccans have almost never been defeated by any iberian power ...moroccans always have the advantages when it comes to combat your men are weak as hell this is the reality.

You don't look like a blood thirsty moor to me. Actually you do not inspire any fear to be honest, you are just a scrawny teenager with too much free time in your hands. If VOX and Chega reach to power things will certainly change when it comes to migration policies, you can be sure of that. There will be no bloodbath because we are not Moroccans (I always find amusing that you adore a country that has always persecuted and treated Berbers as second class citizens while favoring everything Arab) but criminal behavior and ilegal migration will not be tolerated with possible deportations.

Yeah, we never defeated Moroccans. That is probably why you hold no single possession in the Iberian peninsula whereas Spain has control over territories in mainland Morocco.

[Kamal900]

You don't look like a blood thirsty moor to me. Actually you do not inspire any fear to be honest, you are just a scrawny teenager with too much free time in your hands. If VOX and Chega reach to power things will certainly change when it comes to migration policies, you can be sure of that. There will be no bloodbath because we are not Moroccans (I always find amusing that you adore a country that has always persecuted and treated Berbers as second class citizens while favoring everything Arab) but criminal behavior and ilegal migration will not be tolerated with possible deportations.

Yeah, we never defeated Moroccans. That is probably why you hold no single possession in the Iberian peninsula whereas Spain has control over territories in mainland Morocco.

:thumb001:

Viva la portugal and espania!

If you guys need help to fight against these scum then call us, kay?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Yes the portugueses "just" settled and faced no resistance and it's you who have the knowledge apparently lol.

You have very poor knowledge about the Portuguese colonial process. Unlike the Kingdom of Spain the main Portuguese goal was trade, not colonization or conquest. Portuguese colonization efforts only began a couple centuries later in the Americas and Africa. Our explorers would leave behind a series of padrões (stone crosses engraved with the Portuguese coat of arms) marking their claims and build forts and trading posts. So while the Portuguese did claim the archipelago as rightfully theirs as with any other territory they set their foot on, there is no record of Portuguese subjugation of the Guanche people to my knowledge.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

On the topic "Moroccans almost never were defeated by Iberians" here is an interesting map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Algarve_de_Al%C3%A9m-Mar.svg/1280px-Algarve_de_Al%C3%A9m-Mar.svg.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJVbvrFHP30


The day that 800 Portuguese defeated 105.000 Moroccans :rolleyes:

[ÁGUIA]

yes my true colors I'm a blood thirsty moor :thumb001: Also how naive are you to believe that VOX or any right party will expulsed or stop the migration waves ...no no you should respect the human rights :rolleyes: Yes the portugueses "just" settled and faced no resistance and it's you who have the knowledge apparently lol.

Yes moroccans have almost never been defeated by any iberian power ...moroccans always have the advantages when it comes to combat your men are weak as hell this is the reality.

Why is that the majority of people who claim to be so tough or burst to talk about toughness in this forum, aren't tough themselves at all?

[SharpFork]

What's up with ex or supposedly irreligious muslims vindicating the Ghazi mentality and being ultranationalists? Plus the pattern of claiming themselves as victims is hilarious.


yes my true colors I'm a blood thirsty moor :thumb001:
You literally supports foreign Moroccans taking over the Canaries islands through migration, is this going to be peaceful according to you?


Yes moroccans have almost never been defeated by any iberian power ...moroccans always have the advantages when it comes to combat your men are weak as hell this is the reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ourique
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Las_Navas_de_Tolosa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_R%C3%ADo_Salado


Unlike you I know plenty of canarians IRL and online (there are plenty of them on our groups) and they all say the same thing about their people so your quote is meaningless to me and I don't care about what they want these islands will be berbers again We will replace the colonisers. Focus on Portugal Mr. Silva
Again what's up with you switching from actually giving a shit about the truth and representative or scientific studies and polls to basing your opinion of the beliefs of over a million people on anecdotes?

[Nassbean]

It seems people here can't understand the word "almost" it also seems that all these grown and mature men are easily triggered by a teenager....they compare dominating a whole peninsula with two cities and some fortresses on the coast that were taken back by moroccans....

[dududud]

I have been here for a short time but enough to see that you are very worried about the percentage of NA in Iberia

Canary Islands-10.2-Iberomaurissian 0,6-West African- Total-10,8-It is the only Spanish region that has a percentage of WA,but obviously I do not know if it is valid as an example because it is Spanish territory in the African continent

Iberian Peninsula

(0-1%)-Spanish Basque- 0%, Barcelonés-0,8%, Catalunya Central-0,4%, Girona-0,9%, la Rioja-0,9%, LLeida-0,8%, Peri-Barcelona-1%, Penedés-1%, Soria-1%, Terres del Ebre-1%

(1-2%)- Menorca-1.2%, Mallorca-1,8%, Navarra-1.6%, Baleares-1.6%, Tarrragona-1.6%, Cantabria, 1,4%, Castellón-1.2%, Pirineos-1,6%

(2-3%)- Aragón-2%, Alicante-2.8%, Castilla la Mancha-2,4%

(3-5%)-Andalucia-4.4%, Asturias-4.4%, Castilla y León 4,8%, Galicia-4,4%

>5%- Extremadura-5.2%, Portugal-5,2%

Curiously, Galicia and Asturias that were always populated by Christians have the same percentage as Granada that was in the hands of the Moors 700 years- Without a doubt Andalusia was effectively repopulated-North and Eastern Iberia, including Aragon and Castilla la Mancha (Madrid etc.) is practically zero north african

Regarding the Bell Beaker culture samples (2,500-2,000 BC), the percentages of NA was around 1%, which shows ancient contacts between Iberia and North Africa at least since the Neolithic-Iberian migrations to Northern Africa were very intense in the chalcolithic with several Moroccan deposits with many European mitochondrial markers.

Sardinia-1,2%, Calabria-0,2%, French Corsica-0,4%,


Source? I don't see the source = not serious.

Sardinians are a very pure people, specially the Barbagians area.


Target: Sardinian:HGDP00665
Distance: 3.1151% / 0.03115112
81.4Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.2WHG
3.4IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
1.8Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2MAR_Iberomaurusian

Target: Sardinian:HGDP01066
Distance: 4.6842% / 0.04684209
83.4Anatolia_Barcin_N
14.2WHG
2.2IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
0.2MAR_Iberomaurusian

Target: Sardinian:HGDP01073
Distance: 4.6331% / 0.04633107
82.2Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.6WHG
2.6MAR_Iberomaurusian
0.8IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
0.8Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Sardinian:HGDP01075
Distance: 3.7658% / 0.03765772
83.2Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.6WHG
4.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.0MAR_Iberomaurusian

Target: Sardinian:HGDP01078
Distance: 3.9271% / 0.03927069
78.8Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.2WHG
8.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Very pure, very special. Few or zero levant neolithic, caucasus and iran farmer, etc. Look at this barcin percentage.

[Leto]

@Nassbean, can you repost your K13 and K15 here? I think you may have additional Iberian ancestry.

[Nassbean]

@Nassbean, can you repost your K13 and K15 here? I think you may have additional Iberian ancestry.

gedmatch is garbage but ok :

K13

https://i.imgur.com/FyRb72N.png


K15

https://i.imgur.com/MzBqcMh.png

I also have this :

https://i.imgur.com/pa8bOvp.jpg

[Leto]

It's not universally bad. And yes, your Atlantic/North_Atlantic components are very big. Also the West_Med. 13% Red_Sea is lower than in many other North Africans.

[Tooting Carmen]

It's not universally bad. And yes, your Atlantic/North_Atlantic components are very big. Also the West_Med. 13% Red_Sea is lower than in many other North Africans.

He's surely at the more Caucasoid/European-shifted end of the North African spectrum, isn't he?

[Nassbean]

It's not universally bad. And yes, your Atlantic/North_Atlantic components are very big. Also the West Med. 13% Red_Sea is lower than in many other North Africans.

Indeed it's not universally bad but for north africans it is only G25 seems up to date anyway my components are still in the north moroccan spectrum nothing too unusual

[Nassbean]

He's surely at the more Caucasoid/European-shifted end of the North African spectrum, isn't he?

No I've seen north africans with more european components than me

[Rocinante]

Indeed it's not universally bad but for north africans it is only G25 seems up to date anyway my components are still in the north moroccan spectrum nothing too unusual

I agree that G25 it's the only thing up to date, but my friend, you have very high westmed/atlantic in k15, you seem to have a not that distant iberian ancestry. Am i wrong?

[SharpFork]

Source? I don't see the source = not serious.

Sardinians are a very pure people, specially the Barbagians area.


Target: Sardinian:HGDP00665
Distance: 3.1151% / 0.03115112
81.4Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.2WHG
3.4IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
1.8Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2MAR_Iberomaurusian

Target: Sardinian:HGDP01066
Distance: 4.6842% / 0.04684209
83.4Anatolia_Barcin_N
14.2WHG
2.2IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
0.2MAR_Iberomaurusian

Target: Sardinian:HGDP01073
Distance: 4.6331% / 0.04633107
82.2Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.6WHG
2.6MAR_Iberomaurusian
0.8IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
0.8Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Sardinian:HGDP01075
Distance: 3.7658% / 0.03765772
83.2Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.6WHG
4.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.0MAR_Iberomaurusian

Target: Sardinian:HGDP01078
Distance: 3.9271% / 0.03927069
78.8Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.2WHG
8.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Very pure, very special. Few or zero levant neolithic, caucasus and iran farmer, etc. Look at this barcin percentage.
Your 5 samples literally have on average 0.8% Iberomaurusian, what's wrong with the 1.2% figure?

[Rocinante]

Who talked about an open conflict ? :rolleyes: We are currently invading spain in front of your eyes same for France, Belgium and italy in 100/200 years these lands will be around 50/75% NA while you're behind your screen jerking about portuguese defeating a bunch of primitive berbers...pathetic.

Also do not even talk about the western sahara it's way more complex than what you think ...moroccan politicians are smart they know that if they enter in an open conflict with the polisario front the UN will give rights to them. That's why they have to play the diplomats and waiting the ennemies to do some mistakes. If morocco wanted to submit the whole area be sure than in 24H it will be ours.

Spain will never engage an open conflict with such a strong army :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4WjY4giPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esGOFriIYtc

It will need the help of the european union. You think war is like in video games ?

Dude wtf... What a nasty way of thinking is that? How can you say there will be a replacement of the european populations by the moroccans and joy like that? I'm not racist but people from your country are cowardly invading by collecting subsidies from the government doing a shit, while other migrate and work like bastards to assimilate and for not be considered social thrashes like many moroccans. I have nothing against you but what you said is delicate.

[SharpFork]

Great contradiction :rolleyes:

It's not contradictory, Sicily is highly heterogeneous, so a single result from one single city is not going to make the whole of Sicily more North African than Iberia.

[MinervaItalica]

It's not contradictory, Sicily is highly heterogeneous, so a single result from one single city is not going to make the whole of Sicily more North African than Iberia.

Hahahaha

:rotfl:

[SharpFork]

Hahahaha

:rotfl:
What's your problem?

[MinervaItalica]

What's your problem?

You're too funny. You would deserve a prize.

[SharpFork]

You're too funny. You would deserve a prize.
How exactly did I trigger you?

[Samnium]

It's not contradictory, Sicily is highly heterogeneous, so a single result from one single city is not going to make the whole of Sicily more North African than Iberia.

Exactly, Sicily is an island where it's very difficult to make "global" models, everything varies.

Same as Southern Italy, there's a genetic diversity that you can't imagine unless you see dozens and dozens of results from there.

It goes from Central Italy to Cyprus. Many times the largest genetical distance between two spaniards from the mainland (I exclude Canarias, they are an outlier).

There are people who match Jews because having an hidden converso background, others that will be more northern shifted because of some recent greek ancestor...

[Nassbean]

I agree that G25 it's the only thing up to date, but my friend, you have very high westmed/atlantic in k15, you seem to have a not that distant iberian ancestry. Am i wrong?

Gedmatch tend to overestimate the ssa of north africans because of the iberomaurusian component who is partially labelled as ssa G25 is up to date concerning this problem and My west med is normal for a moroccan but yes my atlantic is quite high and I've never heard of a recent iberian ancestor but in north morocco there are plenty of descendent of moriscos so maybe one of them was part of my family idk

[Nassbean]

Dude wtf... What a nasty way of thinking is that? How can you say there will be a replacement of the european populations by the moroccans and joy like that? I'm not racist but people from your country are cowardly invading by collecting subsidies from the government doing a shit, while other migrate and work like bastards to assimilate and for not be considered social thrashes like many moroccans. I have nothing against you but what you said is delicate.

and what he said isn't delicate ? I will not tolerate any disrespectful comments from these arrogant racist member They need to be put at their place

[Rocinante]

and what he said isn't delicate ? I will not tolerate any disrespectful comments from these arrogant racist member They need to be put at their place

I agree with you on this.

[Rocinante]

Gedmatch tend to overestimate the ssa of north africans because of the iberomaurusian component who is partially labelled as ssa G25 is up to date concerning this problem and My west med is normal for a moroccan but yes my atlantic is quite high and I've never heard of a recent iberian ancestor but in north morocco there are plenty of descendent of moriscos so maybe one of them was part of my family idk

You are partly morisco, i bet that.

[Nassbean]

You are partly morisco, i bet that.

Do italians also score high on atlantic because i know that on my father's side I have a recent italian ancestor

[Rocinante]

Do italians also score high on atlantic because i know that on my father's side I have a recent italian ancestor

Yes, but it depends. Would make sense that your father has tuscan/northern italian because that north sea is kind of high too. I don't know about moroccan DNA, but I don't see the reason why an average moroccan could score more than 5% noth sea, so there you go. Or is a galician/Portuguese morisco or is the tuscan/northen italian. Use G25 to solve that doubt bro.

[Nassbean]

Yes, but it depends. Would make sense that your father has tuscan/northern italian because that north sea is kind of high too. I don't know about moroccan DNA, but I don't see the reason why an average moroccan could score more than 5% noth sea, so there you go. Or is a galician/Portuguese morisco or is the tuscan/northen italian. Use G25 to solve that doubt bro.

it's quite complex actually but yes I should get my G25 coordinates anyway thanks

[Leto]

Do italians also score high on atlantic because i know that on my father's side I have a recent italian ancestor
Do you score any North_European on Dodecad K12b?

[Nassbean]

Do you score any North_European on Dodecad K12b?

yes 5.42

[Leto]

yes 5.42
Then almost definitely some more recent European admix. Most North Africans are zero or maybe 1% at most.

[Nassbean]

Then almost definitely some more recent European admix. Most North Africans are zero or maybe 1% at most.

how recent ? Like a great grandfather or older than this ? On my mother's side they are rural people who probably didn't mix with foreigners recently and on my father's side his mother is from a rural background too only his father is from a big city but his family name is moroccan

[Leto]

how recent ? Like a great grandfather or older than this ? On my mother's side they are rural people who probably didn't mix with foreigners recently and on my father's side his mother is from a rural background too only his father is from a big city but his family name is moroccan
I don't know then.
I know some Spaniards brag about Spanish soldiers who had bastard children during the Riffian war or something.

[Adamastor]

This shit still going on?

The problem with this thread (and other similar ones) is that most users here either have no knowledge about genetics (like most Spanish and Italian members) and take the discussion to a nationalistic agenda or have weird agendas like Nassbean. His latest comment about North Africans invading Europe showed his true colors. He is a MENA/brown nationalist living in Europe who wants to destroy Europeans through mass migration and these threads he open are not motivated by mere curiosity, but by vicious malice.

If his people substitute Spaniards, Belgians or French people in their countries, the migration itself will be useless because they will become Morocco 2.0 instead of developed countries. He should be a bit smarter and know he needs whites/Europeans to have a good standard of living.

[Leto]

This shit still going on?

The problem with this thread (and other similar ones) is that most users here either have no knowledge about genetics (like most Spanish and Italian members) and take the discussion to a nationalistic agenda or have weird agendas like Nassbean. His latest comment about North Africans invading Europe showed his true colors. He is a MENA/brown nationalist living in Europe who wants to destroy Europeans through mass migration and these threads he open are not motivated by mere curiosity, but by vicious malice.

If his people substitute Spaniards, Belgians or French people in their countries, the migration itself will be useless because they will become Morocco 2.0 instead of developed countries. He should be a bit smarter and know he needs whites/Europeans to have a good standard of living.
Somebody close this fucking thread!

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It seems people here can't understand the word "almost" it also seems that all these grown and mature men are easily triggered by a teenager....they compare dominating a whole peninsula with two cities and some fortresses on the coast that were taken back by moroccans....

Do not twist historical facts. Morocco never had any possession in the Peninsula. It was the Umayyad Caliphate that invaded and settled the peninsula which by the way, also conquered the entire region where Morocco is nowadays geographically located. The difference is that we fought back whereas people like you take immense pride in having been assimilated and used as canon folder by the Arabs.

Portugal and Spain since their foundation as independent sovereign nations never had their domains under the control of any Morocco Kingdom but Morocco can not say the same about Iberians which still hold possessions until this day.

[Nassbean]

This shit still going on?

The problem with this thread (and other similar ones) is that most users here either have no knowledge about genetics (like most Spanish and Italian members) and take the discussion to a nationalistic agenda or have weird agendas like Nassbean. His latest comment about North Africans invading Europe showed his true colors. He is a MENA/brown nationalist living in Europe who wants to destroy Europeans through mass migration and these threads he open are not motivated by mere curiosity, but by vicious malice.

If his people substitute Spaniards, Belgians or French people in their countries, the migration itself will be useless because they will become Morocco 2.0 instead of developed countries. He should be a bit smarter and know he needs whites/Europeans to have a good standard of living.

lol you really took my statements seriously ...technically that's not even possible but ok I'm the new brown scapegoat

[Kamal900]

Do not twist historical facts. Morocco never had any possession in the Peninsula. It was the Umayyad Caliphate that invaded and settled the peninsula which by the way, also conquered the entire region where Morocco is nowadays geographically located. The difference is that we fought back whereas people like you take immense pride in having been assimilated and used as canon folder by the Arabs.

Portugal and Spain since their foundation as independent sovereign nations never had their domains under the control of any Morocco Kingdom but Morocco can not say the same about Iberians which still hold possessions until this day.

Not exactly. The general who lead the conquest of Iberia was a Berber Muslims, and really, the Arabian genetic contribution among the Maghrebis is weak in contrast to the Levant and Egypt(Palestinian Muslims get around 10% Arabian on average while 20% Egyptian). Even Coptic Christians and the Nubians also have Arabian admixture as well, and they're not Arabs as well. You can also find some Berbers who have some Arabian admixture as well which tells us that it's not a one way streak since there had been Arabian tribes that had mixed and assimilated to the non-Arab natives of North Africa. In other words, everything that you see that were built by the Muslims of Iberia were mostly Berbers and the native Iberian Muslims, not Arabians really.

[Nassbean]

Do not twist historical facts. Morocco never had any possession in the Peninsula. It was the Umayyad Caliphate that invaded and settled the peninsula which by the way, also conquered the entire region where Morocco is nowadays geographically located. The difference is that we fought back whereas people like you take immense pride in having been assimilated and used as canon folder by the Arabs.

Portugal and Spain since their foundation as independent sovereign nations never had their domains under the control of any Morocco Kingdom but Morocco can not say the same about Iberians which still hold possessions until this day.

Again you show your ignorance here because Tariq ibn ziyad was not arab but berber and his soldiers were berbers from north Morocco so no umayyads didn't defeat anyone. Also the first umayyad ruler of Al andalus was half berber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Rahman_I).

"we fought back" berbers did it way before you : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Revolt and no arabs ever ruled Morocco after this (except some dynasties who will claim arab/sharif origin but we all know these are fairytales to legitimate their religious power).

Portugal and spain are both recent creations and iberians have been submitted by an enormous amount of foreigners. Morocco is one of the oldest monarchy in the world and exist since 789 : https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/rulers-of-morocco-789-present

You also forget that during the period of taifas most of them were under moroccan control and were later united by two berber/moroccan dynasties the almohads and almoravids :

https://i.imgur.com/FBhVjFr.png
https://i.imgur.com/0mk98UL.jpg

Plenty of berber tribes settled there (I don't see any arab one) :

https://i.imgur.com/jSSrOZY.jpg

Btw your capitale city was not even liberated by portugueses but mainly by french ,english and german soldiers ...lol

[Kamal900]

Again you show your ignorance here because Tariq ibn ziyad was not arab but berber and his soldiers were berbers from north Morocco so no umayyads didn't defeat anyone. Also the first umayyad ruler of Al andalus was half berber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Rahman_I).

"we fought back" berbers did it way before you : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Revolt and no arabs ever ruled Morocco after this (except some dynasties who will claim arab/sharif origin but we all know these are fairytales to legitimate their religious power).

Portugal and spain are both recent creations and iberians have been submitted by an enormous amount of foreigners. Morocco is one of the oldest monarchy in the world and exist since 789 : https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/rulers-of-morocco-789-present

You also forget that during the period of taifas most of them were under moroccan control and were later united by two berber/moroccan dynasties the almohads and almoravids :

https://i.imgur.com/FBhVjFr.png
https://i.imgur.com/0mk98UL.jpg

Plenty of berber tribes settled there (I don't see any arab one) :

https://i.imgur.com/jSSrOZY.jpg

Btw your capitale city was not even liberated by portugueses but mainly by french ,english and german soldiers ...lol

Not to mention on the fact that the ones who supported the Arab nationalists against the Berbers and vice versa was the French to divide and conquer the region for their own benefit. They did the same thing with the Kurds of Syria and Iraq too. The Christians and the Druze of the Levant and so on. The French were masters of using such strategy during the colonial period of France and Europe.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Not exactly. The general who lead the conquest of Iberia was a Berber Muslims, and really, the Arabian genetic contribution among the Maghrebis is weak in contrast to the Levant and Egypt(Palestinian Muslims get around 10% Arabian on average while 20% Egyptian). Even Coptic Christians and the Nubians also have Arabian admixture as well, and they're not Arabs as well. You can also find some Berbers who have some Arabian admixture as well which tells us that it's not a one way streak since there had been Arabian tribes that had mixed and assimilated to the non-Arab natives of North Africa. In other words, everything that you see that were built by the Muslims of Iberia were mostly Berbers and the native Iberian Muslims, not Arabians really.

The ruling elite was Arab. Berbers were for the most part just canon folder. My point is, it is immensely retard to take pride over Umayyad conquest of the Iberian peninsula when you are a Berber yourself. Berbers were conquered as well they had to adopted Islam and paid taxes and tribute to the new administration. As a result, five hundred years later you have ignorant Berber immigrants in Belgium rejoicing over Umayyad achievement while being incapable of speaking any Berber language (but seemingly fluent in some form of Arab dialect). As for the Arab impact in the region it is underestimated in my opinion. Nassbean himself descends from a non-Berber paternal lineage.

[Nassbean]

The ruling elite was Arab. Berbers were for the most part just canon folder. My point is, it is immensely retard to take pride over Umayyad conquest of the Iberian peninsula when you are a Berber yourself. Berbers were conquered as well they had to adopted Islam and paid taxes and tribute to the new administration. As a result, five hundred years later you have ignorant Berber immigrants in Belgium rejoicing over Umayyad achievement while being incapable of speaking any Berber language (but seemingly fluent in some form of Arab dialect). As for the Arab impact in the region it is underestimated in my opinion. Nassbean himself descends from a non-Berber paternal lineage.

hahaha :picard1: I think we should remind you that even during the conquest of north africa Arab soldiers were a minority their armies were composed of freshly converted berbers from libya and these berbers conquered North Africa you also forget that unlike egyptians or persians berbers were not one monolithic and homogenous entity a riffian probably didn't see a kabyle or tunisian as his people/brother they were a tribal society and that's what facilited the foreign invasions.

[Kamal900]

The ruling elite was Arab. Berbers were for the most part just canon folder. My point is, it is immensely retard to take pride over Umayyad conquest of the Iberian peninsula when you are a Berber yourself. Berbers were conquered as well they had to adopted Islam and paid taxes and tribute to the new administration. As a result, five hundred years later you have ignorant Berber immigrants in Belgium rejoicing over Umayyad achievement while being incapable of speaking any Berber language (but seemingly fluent in some form of Arab dialect). As for the Arab impact in the region it is underestimated in my opinion. Nassbean himself descends from a non-Berber paternal lineage.

Sure, but the general was a Berber, not an Arabian, and they did revolted against the Ummuyad caliphate which lasted for only 83 years in it's existence. After that, Arabians had no relations with the Maghreb world whatsoever. The funny thing is that Arabization was initiated by non-Arab Muslim groups like the Kipchack Turks AKA the Mamlukis and etc. Well, 95% of all the J1 carriers in North Africa is indeed of Arabian ancestry, but in terms of autosomal DNA, it's not strong at all really. Well, Islam is a universal religion like Christianity, and both of these religions originated in the Levant and Arabia. While Islam is embedded with certain Arabian elements, Christianity was embedded with greco-roman elements when it got split from Judaism as a Jewish sect. I mean, Iberians are largely catholic Christians due to the Roman rule of Iberia that lasted for over 600 years until the Goths took over the peninsula in the 5th century AD. I mean, one can use that against your people since Iberia wasn't a Romance speaking people before the Romans invaded since it was inhabited by a diversity of different peoples like the Celticiberians and etc. In fact, the Italian members here like to brag about this fact against the Spaniards here.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Sure, but the general was a Berber, not an Arabian, and they did revolted against the Ummuyad caliphate which lasted for only 83 years in it's existence. After that, Arabians had no relations with the Maghreb world whatsoever. The funny thing is that Arabization was initiated by non-Arab Muslim groups like the Kipchack Turks AKA the Mamlukis and etc. Well, 95% of all the J1 carriers in North Africa is indeed of Arabian ancestry, but in terms of autosomal DNA, it's not strong at all really. Well, Islam is a universal religion like Christianity, and both of these religions originated in the Levant and Arabia. While Islam is embedded with certain Arabian elements, Christianity was embedded with greco-roman elements when it got split from Judaism as a Jewish sect. I mean, Iberians are largely catholic Christians due to the Roman rule of Iberia that lasted for over 600 years until the Goths took over the peninsula in the 5th century AD. I mean, one can use that against your people since Iberia wasn't a Romance speaking people before the Romans invaded since it was inhabited by a diversity of different peoples like the Celticiberians and etc. In fact, the Italian members here like to brag about this fact against the Spaniards here.

So you are telling me that it only took them 83 years to completely replace the language, culture and costumes of the Berber tribes until this day where everything Arab is still favored over Berber in Morocco? Impressive. Let us be reminded that Amazigh languages were only recognized a few years ago.

[Duffmannn]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Mapa_del_Magreb_%281956%29.svg/1200px-Mapa_del_Magreb_%281956%29.svg.png

[Nassbean]

So you are telling me that it only took them 83 years to completely replace the language, culture and costumes of the Berber tribes until this day where everything Arab is still favored over Berber in Morocco? Impressive. Let us be reminded that Amazigh languages were only recognized a few years ago.

You talk as if your language was indigenous...you should thank italians for it. At least we still have our languages while you lost everything. Moreover no the arabization process is more complex than this but it really started during the XIth century with the hilalian invasions ( French also favorized arabisation in some areas)

[ÁGUIA]

Let's not pretend here, obviously that the main reason why Berbers invaded to conquer the Peninsula was because they were included in a Caliphate stretching till Damasco, ready to back them up, otherwise it wouldn't happen. They were quasi invited by the Visigoths to help them in an internal scuffle, later Berbers were smart and just seized the opportunity they faced at hand. A diminished/fractioned opponent army (even some Visigoths sided with moors), and an unarmed population (only Visigoths held arms and were trained in battle). Not taking away their merit, but it was almost a stroll for them given the specific circumstances they encountered. Once you manage to convert the population you have a massive stronghold in the Peninsula which was the reason why later on again with Caliphates/dynasties behind Almohads and Almoravids benefited from as well.
Reconquista started in 722 in Covadonga Battle by a small insurgence group in the north of the Peninsula, and against majority of the odds (Moors had superior advantages), with advances and some setbacks, Christians managed to reconquer all the territory back.

[Aldaris]

Gettting bored again, Naz? Open a textbook.

[Nassbean]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Mapa_del_Magreb_%281956%29.svg/1200px-Mapa_del_Magreb_%281956%29.svg.png

controlling sand and a small coast in the north ...what's even more funny is that in both region Spain needed the help of France because the berber tribes there were too powerful for them :


The result of that tension was a series of guerrilla attacks by Abd el-Krim’s forces on Spain’s advanced fortifications in June–July 1921, which culminated in Fernández Silvestre’s ill-considered decision to abandon the frontline post of Annual (Anwal) on July 22, 1921. That hasty evacuation panicked the Spanish troops, who fled Annual and subsequent fall-back positions in general disorder. That retreat empowered the Rif who were behind the Spanish lines, and Abd el-Krim and his followers pushed the Spanish forces back to Melilla. In a matter of weeks, Spain had lost all of the territory it had occupied since 1909 and suffered anywhere from 8,000 to 10,000 deaths, including that of Fernández Silvestre. This was undoubtedly the worst military disaster suffered by a colonial power since the Italian debacle at Adwa in Ethiopia in 1896.


The coordination of French and Spanish forces during the late summer of 1925 led to an amphibious landing of over 18,000 Spanish troops to the west of Alhucemas Bay on September 8, 1925, and a concomitant push of perhaps as many as 20,000 French troops north from their protectorate. Abd el-Krim’s forces, which may have numbered anywhere from 9,000 to 13,000 men, were no match for the combined strength of those two European powers. On October 2, 1925, the Spanish occupied Abd el-Krim’s home base of Ajdir, and between October 1925 and March 1926, they gained control of most of the territories in their protectorate.


The Rif War balance sheet was striking. Official Spanish casualty figures published in the late 1920s put losses at approximately 43,500 troops killed, missing, or wounded. Moreover, estimates put Spanish war-related expenses at 3.2 billion pesetas (more than $540 million), an astronomical figure given the size of Spain’s economy at the time. French casualties were fewer but still notable, with as many as 18,000 killed, missing, or wounded.


Spaniards lost against these kind of sheperds :

https://i.imgur.com/GjwLEhs.jpg

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Every historical evidence points out for a small Arab ruling elite. It doesn't really mater if the general was Berber or not. All of the architecture and science left behind in Andaluzia is an Arab sub-product. Berbers were nomadic tribes not much different from gypsies and had no possession over such technology so obviously the Arabs taught them (and if not they learned it from Byzantines prior to the invasion). Even nowadays after so many centuries Berber nomadic tribes still live in tents in the middle of the dessert with camels.

[Nassbean]

Let's not joke here, obviously that the main reason why Berbers invaded to conquer the Peninsula was because they were included in a Caliphate stretching till Damasco, ready to back them up, otherwise it wouldn't happen. They were quasi invited by the Visigoths to help them in an internal scuffle, later Berbers were smart and just seized the opportunity they face at hand. A diminished/fractioned opponent army (even some Visigoths sided with moors), and an unarmed population (only Visigoths held arms and were trained in battle). Not taking away their merit, but it was almost a stroll for them given the specific circumstances they encountered. Once you manage to convert the population you have a massive stronghold in the Peninsula which was the reason why later on again with Caliphates/dynasties behind Almohads and Almoravids benefited from as well.
Reconquista started in 722 in Covadonga Battle by a small insurgence group in the north of the Peninsula, and against majority of the odds (Moors had superior advantages), with advances and some setbacks, we managed to reconquer all the territory back.

"Reconquista" is an anachronism and a made up term created during the XIXth century it has no reality what we see is mainly border and religious conflicts that's it. Also you're portuguese why do you talk about some asturians as your ancestors ?? there is no "we" here your ancestors were probably from al andalus too.

[Nassbean]

Gettting bored again, Naz? Open a textbook.

You know how your fellow countrymen are sometimes...they need a good moroccan correction.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

You talk as if your language was indigenous...you should thank italians for it. At least we still have our languages while you lost everything. Moreover no the arabization process is more complex than this but it really started during the XIth century with the hilalian invasions ( French also favorized arabisation in some areas)

My language is absolutely indigenous to the foundation of this country. It is the language of the people that created my nation. Meanwhile in Morocco Berbers have always been marginalized indigenous people since the arrival of Islam and have to be fighting until this day for greater recognition for their ancient ethnic group, their culture and language. Moroccan authorities go as far as refusing to register Berber names on the official registry. Wouldn't surprise me if you are a Berber internet warrior named Muhammad or Ali, lol.

[Duffmannn]

Every historical evidence points out for a small Arab ruling elite. It doesn't really mater if the general was Berber or not. All of the architecture and science left behind in Andaluzia is an Arab sub-product. Berbers were nomadic tribes not much different from gypsies and had no possession over such technology so obviously the Arabs taught them (and if not they learned it from Byzantines prior to the invasion). Even nowadays after so many centuries Berber nomadic tribes still live in tents in the middle of the dessert with camels.

Well, no, all the sciencie, architecture and advances in Al-Andalus were made by andalousians themselves (thus, islamized hispanics). The foreign rule over Al-Andalus barely lasted 40 years, and almohad-almoravid caliphates were destructive and provoked a massive fled of intellectuals (Maimonides, Averroes). The Islam was so lenient in Al-Andalus that until the almoravid arrival the consumption of wine was common, and one of the first things they did is to cutt off the wineyards.

But this was something common to all the so-called muslim world, all the science and advances were made by persians, copts, jews, christians of different denominations.... when the islamic fanatism and demography eroded this genetical base, the Islamic World stagnated, and then began its decay until today.

The Islam is guilty of provoking the decay of the MENA world forever. Even the poorest countries and regions of Europe are majority muslim or have been until recently under muslim control.

[Nassbean]

Every historical evidence points out for a small Arab ruling elite. It doesn't really mater if the general was Berber or not. All of the architecture and science left behind in Andaluzia is an Arab sub-product. Berbers were nomadic tribes not much different from gypsies and had no possession over such technology so obviously the Arabs taught them (and if not they learned it from Byzantines prior to the invasion). Even nowadays after so many centuries Berber nomadic tribes still live in tents in the middle of the dessert with camels.

the other day you were saying we were 40% ssa and now you're simply lying again because you think it will enrage me but i'm calm don't worry.

Anyway good luck to find any moorish architecture in the middle east ...you also forget that arabs were primarly nomadic tribes only the south-western part (Himyar --> even though they weren't arabs culturally but sabeans) and the northern one were urbanized. The majority of berbers were sendentarized since the neolithic :

https://i.imgur.com/wyE1tef.jpg

[SharpFork]

lol you really took my statements seriously ...technically that's not even possible but ok I'm the new brown scapegoat
"Ahah I was just pretending to be retard" doesn't work in this forum, you should know that seeing people continuously spouting BS over any giving topic.

[Nassbean]

My language is absolutely indigenous to the foundation of this country. It is the language of the people that created my nation. Meanwhile in Morocco Berbers have always been marginalized indigenous people since the arrival of Islam and have to be fighting until this day for greater recognition for their ancient ethnic group, their culture and language. Moroccan authorities go as far as refusing to register Berber names on the official registry. Wouldn't surprise me if you are a Berber internet warrior named Muhammad or Ali, lol.

Foundation or not your language is still not the language of your lusitanian ancestors who fought romans ...these indigenous people were totally submitted and went through a latinization process while even after 7000 years there are still millions of people who speak berber dialects in North Africa (marginalized or not) so where is your total arabization ? We even kept the tifinagh alphabet.

You should also know that the darija isn't understood by arabs/middle easterners it's way too different :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6x_6K0OR3w

[Nassbean]

"Ahah I was just pretending to be retard" doesn't work in this forum, you should know that seeing people continuously spouting BS over any giving topic.

I wasn't pretending to be retard I wanted to make these racists angry that's it people who know me well here already know I wasn't serious at all

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

the other day you were saying we were 40% ssa and now you're simply lying again because you think it will enrage me but i'm calm don't worry.

Anyway good luck to find any moorish architecture in the middle east ...you also forget that arabs were primarly nomadic tribes only the south-western part (Himyar --> even though they weren't arabs culturally but sabeans) and the northern one were urbanized. The majority of berbers were sendentarized since the neolithic :


Majority of Morocco is indeed at least 50% SSA. Another great achievement brought by Islam to the Magrebh. Trans-Saharan slave trade and inbreeding (a tradition that Morocco adopted with open arms being one of the nations with highest levels of inbred people until this day).

You can not find Moorish architecture in the Middle-East but you can find Portuguese architecture in the Middle-East. If you google for Berber architecture you will find amazing "Berber architecture" you will find houses made of mudbricks. They even used that architecture in Star Wars movies to represent desert desolated planets, lol.

[Nassbean]

Majority of Morocco is indeed at least 50% SSA. Another great achievement brought by Islam to the Magrebh. Trans-Saharan slave trade and inbreeding (a tradition that Morocco adopted with open arms being one of the nations with highest levels of inbred people until this day).

You can not find Moorish architecture in the Middle-East but you can find Portuguese architecture in the Middle-East. If you google for Berber architecture you will find amazing "Berber architecture" you will find houses made of mudbricks. They even used that architecture in Star Wars movies to represent desert desolated planets, lol.

You talk as if your architecture wasn't influenced by other european nations ...:rotfl: It's nice seeing you reacting like this it means I did my work you're now enraged :devil:

[SharpFork]

I wasn't pretending to be retard I wanted to make these racists angry that's it people who know me well here already know I wasn't serious at all
I mean honestly I don't see the point, they were already triggered by people posting studies.

[Nassbean]

I mean honestly I don't see the point, they were already triggered by people posting studies.

Yes but I start to be really fed up of this people online and IRL they keep harassing us I can't even open a thread about south europe without them coming like a bunch of uncivilized people and destroying it. It's my nature I cannot stay calm with those kind of people I need to put them down that's how I work even though I know it's sometimes a bit childish and useless. I always respected the members who respected me in return that's it

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

You talk as if your architecture wasn't influenced by other european nations ...:rotfl: It's nice seeing you reacting like this it means I did my work you're now enraged :devil:

Iberian architecture can not be find anywhere else in Europe to be honest. It is easily identifiable as being from either Portugal or Spain. Manueline architecture is specifically Portuguese, to state an example or Catalan Modernisme.

[ÁGUIA]

"Reconquista" is an anachronism and a made up term created during the XIXth century it has no reality what we see is mainly border and religious conflicts that's it. Also you're portuguese why do you talk about some asturians as your ancestors ?? there is no "we" here your ancestors were probably from al andalus too.

I guess truth, doesn't set well with deluded chauvinists (you ain't no different than the ones you critic here). ;)
All terms are made up, do you think they just happen by some sort of miraculous event?
I have no quarrel if my ancestors were from the Al Andalus (some moor garrisons were there indeed for some 30 years or so), Roman empire, Suebis, Visigoths etc, same as yours were probably under the protectorates of Spain and France, so what? ultimately I am just Portuguese.

But is Portugal under the Al Andalus domain still, and no one told me?
WHY? why not tell to Águia, come on!!

[Samnium]

Moorish architecture isn't that great, I mean Alhambra is far from being sophisticated and beautiful as Gothic Cathedrals in France.

You will say that I'm biased but I'm judging with technical and artistic criterions.

[SharpFork]

Moorish architecture isn't that great, I mean Alhambra is far from being sophisticated and beautiful as Gothic Cathedrals in France.

You will say that I'm biased but I'm judging with technical and artistic criterions.

Gothic is simply superior in form but Islamic wall motifs and colors are quite good.

Edit:My opinion of course

[ÁGUIA]

Moorish architecture isn't that great, I mean Alhambra is far from being sophisticated and beautiful as Gothic Cathedrals in France.

You will say that I'm biased but I'm judging with technical and artistic criterions.

Actually Moorish architecture is quite aesthetically pleasant in my opinion. I like it, but I guess it is up to personal interpretation.

[Samnium]

Actually Moorish architecture is quite aesthetic pleasant in my opinion. I like it, but I guess it is up to personal interpretation.

I'm judging by "objective" standards like : harmony of the buildings, lightness, technical capacities (building a 100 meters tall Cathedral is a tough challenge), roofs....

In that regard, la Sainte Chapelle is a pretty good example :

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/AGw4-X3SbFYUgKugDvXIMp-tvLF2yxjcn1jXjkMn8pQGEsYaLDNr3CCn8nUd_SyfyqwV06Wvn Uzz_Qib9dQGpe6_w4vodFFzG0TYg498XJGIrHtiYldOP47kbQC pZBgbocfjdoBY4TUndyZgT8ngixE6vrw-DYOfNMk
https://www.discoverwalks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/640px-sainte-chapelle_gnosne.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/3280/2666648827_d01e1de522_b.jpg
https://arttrip.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/sainte-chapelle-parigi-8.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/6e/ef/686eefcbd1b6f64a178955c22fb07caa.jpg

Not even one building from Moor era come close to the Sainte Chapelle, technically and artistically.

[Nassbean]

Iberian architecture can not be find anywhere else in Europe to be honest. It is easily identifiable as being from either Portugal or Spain. Manueline architecture is specifically Portuguese, to state an example or Catalan Modernisme.

lol I simply check and it says that it was influenced by the roman , gothic and moorish movements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manueline) ...

[Nassbean]

I guess truth, doesn't set well with deluded chauvinists (you ain't no different than the ones you critic here). ;)
All terms are made up, do you think they just happen by some sort of miraculous event?
I have no quarrel if my ancestors were from the Al Andalus (some moor garrisons were there indeed for some 30 years or so), Roman empire, Suebis, Visigoths etc, same as yours were probably under the protectorates of Spain and France, so what? ultimately I am just Portuguese.

But is Portugal under the Al Andalus domain still, and no one told me?
WHY? why not tell to Águia, come on!!

I was just talking about the real nature of these conquests I didn't say they never happened

[Nassbean]

Moorish architecture isn't that great, I mean Alhambra is far from being sophisticated and beautiful as Gothic Cathedrals in France.

You will say that I'm biased but I'm judging with technical and artistic criterions.

So you reduce the moorish architecture to one monument :picard1: here in this wiki article you have a decent list for Morocco and algeria : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_mauresque aesthetically speaking gothic cathedrals are ugly as hell I seriously don't understand how you can be amazed by it we clearly see a regression after the fall of the roman empire...

[Samnium]

So you reduce the moorish architecture to one monument :picard1: here in this wiki article you have a decent list for Morocco and algeria : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_mauresque aesthetically speaking gothic cathedrals are ugly as hell I seriously don't understand how you can be amazed by it we clearly see a regression after the fall of the roman empire...

"Ugly as hell" :laugh:

Gothic Cathedrals are the highest buildings built during European Middle Ages, and probably the most beautiful . Saying that they are "ugly" is just laughable, it's not even a question of "cultural bias" or whatever.

And think that the cathedrals were all painted, like roman temples, so you would see a book of images painted that stood in the middle of the city.

Mosques interior are usually dark, look like a cave seriously :

https://www.mariankrausphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/The-Grande-Mosque-by-Marian-Kraus-Photography-0317.jpg

https://owaytours.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/mezquita-cordoba-free-tour.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Al-Aqsa_Mosque%2C_Jerusalem_-_Interior_-_panoramio.jpg
A clear regression whereas Gothic builders used lot of "antic" elements especially for columns and chapiteaux :

Chartres

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/da/95/44da95e51b3322d581e1f3b7db407aa6.jpg

Strasbourg

https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/rose-window-strasbourg-cathedral-strasbourg-france-jon-berghoff.jpg

Duomo di Milano

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/9e/ce/ec9ecef29eec2f612b80e7313da423b4.jpg

[Duffmannn]

https://owaytours.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/mezquita-cordoba-free-tour.jpg


Those arches of Cordoba´s Mosque are not a good example of Islamic Architecture, are of roman and visigothic origin, are a product of the vandalisation of older buildings and churches.

[Samnium]

Those arches of Cordoba´s Mosque are not a good example of Islamic Architecture, are of roman and visigothic origin, are a product of the vandalisation of older buildings and churches.

That wasn't the point, I wanted only to show how dark a mosque interior can be as opposed to the lightness of Gothic churches.

Only stained glass gives away the debate.

[Kamal900]

Well, no, all the sciencie, architecture and advances in Al-Andalus were made by andalousians themselves (thus, islamized hispanics). The foreign rule over Al-Andalus barely lasted 40 years, and almohad-almoravid caliphates were destructive and provoked a massive fled of intellectuals (Maimonides, Averroes). The Islam was so lenient in Al-Andalus that until the almoravid arrival the consumption of wine was common, and one of the first things they did is to cutt off the wineyards.

But this was something common to all the so-called muslim world, all the science and advances were made by persians, copts, jews, christians of different denominations.... when the islamic fanatism and demography eroded this genetical base, the Islamic World stagnated, and then began its decay until today.

The Islam is guilty of provoking the decay of the MENA world forever. Even the poorest countries and regions of Europe are majority muslim or have been until recently under muslim control.

Moldova is the poorest country in Europe, and it's not a Muslim nation at all. No, most of the scientific contributions during the Abassid period in the middle east were made by either Arabs or Persians with some native Iranic Muslims of Central Asia. If by Copts you mean ethnic Egyptians then no.

[Kamal900]

That wasn't the point, I wanted only to show how dark a mosque interior can be as opposed to the lightness of Gothic churches.

Only stained glass gives away the debate.

You should see the mosques in Iran, lol. They're very colorful in the inside. As for Gothic, well, I like the Romanesque ones better.

[Samnium]

You should see the mosques in Iran, lol. They're very colorful in the inside. As for Gothic, well, I like the Romanesque ones better.

I've said "usually" not that all the Mosques were dark inside, but Nassbean saying that Gothic Architecture is ugly whereas the average mosque look nothing more than an hangar with a tower and some oriental decorations is quite laughable.

[Duffmannn]

Samniun is not speaking about the beauty of the islamic or the gothic architecture, but about its technical difficulty, the mathematical and technical development that a build needs, how complex it is to build.

It´s like comparing a skyscraper with a pyramid, you can prefer the pyramid, but the skyscraper is much more complex.

Anyways, the islamic architecture stagned in the mosque (and many of the architectural solutions used on them come from the previous churches) and didn´t evolutioned nothing in maybe 1000 years.

[Kamal900]

I've said "usually" not that all the Mosques were dark inside, but Nassbean saying that Gothic Architecture is ugly whereas the average mosque look nothing more than an hangar with a tower and some oriental decorations is quite laughable.

That's the point. The mosque is not a place of arts and etc but rather a place for worship only. It has to be simple and so on since the idea of materialism and etc is frowned upon in Islam. Even the Churches in the Levant isn't grandeur either like in Europe which were built at the time where the Roman Catholic church had complete control over people's lives.

[Samnium]

Samniun is not speaking about the beauty of the islamic or the gothic architecture, but about its technical difficulty, the mathematical and technical development that a build needs, how complex it is to build.

It´s like comparing a skyscraper with a pyramid, you can prefer the pyramid, but the skyscraper is much more complex.

Anyways, the islamic architecture stagned in the mosque (and many of the architectural solutions used on them come from the previous churches) and didn´t evolutioned nothing in maybe 1000 years.

Yes of course but I've talked also about some artistic elements, fact is that I've never seen a mooresque building with windows like you can see in Notre Dame de Paris or la Sainte Chapelle. There's objectively no comparison. Even on the "floor", in the Siena Cathedral you see beautiful works of marble marquetry, in the average mosque it's a carpet.

And I've could even talked about Italian churches, there are plenty of things to say about it,

[Samnium]

That's the point. The mosque is not a place of arts and etc but rather a place for worship only. It has to be simple and so on since the idea of materialism and etc is frowned upon in Islam. Even the Churches in the Levant isn't grandeur either like in Europe which were built at the time where the Roman Catholic church had complete control over people's lives.

Even "modest" byzantine churches are much more elaborated and pleasant to the eyes than most of the mosques :

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0c/29/38/0c2938ca442b3c184065927ad511dd48.jpg

I know that they are primarily a place of worship but actually this whole reply was about Mooresque architecture being so "beautiful" and all the Al-Andalus bragging, I've answered with Gothic art.

[Kamal900]

Even "modest" byzantine churches are much more elaborated and pleasant to the eyes than most of the mosques :

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0c/29/38/0c2938ca442b3c184065927ad511dd48.jpg

I know that they are primarily a place of worship but actually this whole reply was about Mooresque architecture being so "beautiful" and all the Al-Andalus bragging, I've answered with Gothic art.

Well, beauty is up to the eyes of the beholder really. Again, icons is forbidden in Islam which is why you find mosques tend to resemble more closer to synagogues than to churches really.

[Duffmannn]

Yes of course but I've talked also about some artistic elements, fact is that I've never seen a mooresque building with windows like you can see in Notre Dame de Paris or la Sainte Chapelle. There's objectively no comparison. Even on the "floor", in the Siena Cathedral you see beautiful works of marble marquetry, in the average mosque it's a carpet.

And I've could even talked about Italian churches, there are plenty of things to say about it,

In the islamic world the beauty or the richness can not be shown in public (this applies even to women), to do not provoke jealousy in people.

Their houses and buildings (not always, peripherical or less radical zones do not make this many times: Persia-Central Asia, Turkey, nowadays in Dubai skyscrapers) must be modest outside, even poorish. That´s the reason why most islamic old buildings resemble anodinous outside (for example la Alhambra, or Cordoba mosque), but they reserve the beauty for the inner. This applies also to the homes where they live.

But this beauty, this progress, stagned around the year 1000, no new architectural, technical or organizative invention was made in this regard until the XX century. The styles remained unalterated during time, and excepting peripherical regions (Turkey and Persia again), no major building was build in all the Arab World from 1400 (even a bit before) until the XX century, most islamic architectural buildings of the "core region" were build before this date. While in Europe succeed romanesque, gothic, renascimental, baroque, rococó, neoclassical, decimononic and contemporary architecture styles.

[Ethel]

This thread's gone from "less-moor" cringe competition to people disregarding other's architecture in favor of their own as a symbol of superiority. It's incredible how low and shallow you guys can be.

[Duffmannn]

This thread's gone from "less-moor" cringe competition to people disregarding other's architecture in favor of their own as a symbol of superiority. It's incredible how low and shallow you guys can be.

But you are reading it...

[Nassbean]

Even "modest" byzantine churches are much more elaborated and pleasant to the eyes than most of the mosques :

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0c/29/38/0c2938ca442b3c184065927ad511dd48.jpg

I know that they are primarily a place of worship but actually this whole reply was about Mooresque architecture being so "beautiful" and all the Al-Andalus bragging, I've answered with Gothic art.

so this :

https://i.imgur.com/UGcVWgd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ElXDelG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/X4AJGbK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Dcn5FGv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DZ7UK6U.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vg7Yb3p.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fKLfEBr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/llK3DZK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jmwnCTE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/94eeKCG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KYK79Gi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WllYIuC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/umOvVmf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JX6kIcd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5xGDD3t.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8r1mw73.jpg




is uglier than this :

https://i.imgur.com/4yc0VmZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ozSOigc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/daYl1HV.jpg

no sorry I can't accept this it's depressing, without any color or detail it's way too sober and simple nothing impressive here except the height. I have the right to have my opinion about it your criterias are totally subjective

[Urbanuss]

Academic papers >>> Your opinion. And no, it is not common caucasoid ancestry, otherwise all Europeans would score it but they don't.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Map_of_African_admixture_in_European_populations.p ng

do you have the courage to show some map of non-white mixture in other Europeans instead of Iberians? Do you think other Europeans are pure? lel xd

[Urbanuss]

Why is it relevant from who it is? Never understood that part. And I don't get the fuss about minor North African admixture, either. Iberians have more northern European admixture than average Italians and Greeks.

Not from islamic invasions = non-moorish

Do you understand now, troll?

[Urbanuss]

You attacked my people for no reason using Putin, lol. I'm against Putin actually but that doesn't mean he is genetically Mongolian or anything. Again, 20% East Asian is better than 10% Moor in my opinion because the former at least create sophisticated cultures.

Nah, the """""moor""""" is better than mongol or hun, since thats a predominantly caucasoid component, troll!

[Urbanuss]

Try better next time.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/81/09/ae810906a5e455b7a6d9a9488be13b95.gif

LMMMMAAAAOOO!!
https://i.imgur.com/HS6QtDS.jpeg

These hunnish mongol rapebabies are so crazzzzyyy!!
https://i.imgur.com/UmcCbI4.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/UJuq0Ev.jpeg

[Urbanuss]

lol show me these 10 000 samples and show me one portuguese member here with 5% NA or less good luck. Now some facts :



some individuals clearly had more than 1% lol.



source : https://ellipse.prbb.org/reconstructing-the-genetic-map-of-the-last-8000-years-in-the-iberian-peninsula/

We keep finding north african individuals even before the roman era ...Let's wait for more samples.






between 4% and 20% ! not 4% and 20% but between 4% and 20% !



way before Rome...

source : https://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11791#sec-9

Also yes the average for the whole country is 5% but that's because the basque region has none NA admixture but there is a lot of variations between regions : In the peninsula overall, admixture from an African-type parental population appears to be 10·6%, but this varies widely; there is none in the Basque zones, but 21·6% in Castile, i. e. twice as much as elsewhere.

https://i.imgur.com/ZaszKvk.jpg

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Iberian-North-African-and-Sephardic-Jewish-Admixture-Proportions-among-Iberian_fig4_23629037

the highest amount of NA is found in Iberia :

https://i.imgur.com/xgIPlHl.png

Also how do you explain that 42% of the paternal haplogroups of Pasiegos are from NA :

https://i.imgur.com/BTLMDBV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NpxREpG.jpg

Moreover I don't really care about your feelings and how spaniards perceive us most north africans don't really care about you but let's go back to my question galicia in average has 10% what about sicily ?


Asturians are 50% sephardic piggies? LOOL XD.

extremely comical coming from a subhuman sandnigger like Nassbean

[Jana]

Not from islamic invasions = non-moorish

Do you understand now, troll?

I clearly don't retard. Weather it's from Moors or before that, it is exact same type of Ancestry.

[Urbanuss]

I personally haven’t seen any Sicilians score that amount, but generally the average for east Sicilians is something like ~5%.
Maybe a little higher in west Sicilians, who also score some minor amount of Bedouin.
Most of the Berber related ancestry probably coming from Carthaginian settlements and not Aghlabid emirate.

In east Iberians it’s also around ~5%. In west Iberians it’s more like ~10% peaking in Galicians. Most of it is from ummayad rule but some I’d imagine came earlier from Roman and Carthaginian settlements as well.

Basques of course only scoring noise level.

Are you a retard?
https://i.imgur.com/Mkxyblr.jpeg

Galicia never had a moorish settlement/umayyad

[Urbanuss]

I clearly don't retard. Weather it's from Moors or before that, it is exact same type of Ancestry.

So we call germans "Huns" because of some ancient east eurasian ancestry?

if the NA of the Iberians does not come from the Muslim invasions, they should not be called "Moors".

otherwise, other Europeans would be called Arabs, Turks, Mongols, or Iranians for some reasons.

[Jana]

So we call germans "Huns" because of some ancient east eurasian ancestry?

if the NA of the Iberians does not come from the Muslim invasions, they should not be called "Moors".

otherwise, other Europeans would be called Arabs, Turks, Mongols, or Iranians for some reasons.

Germans don't score any east Asian, so your point is null and void.

I never called Iberian Moors so you don't need to discuss that with me.

[Urbanuss]

I never called Iberian Moors so you don't need to discuss that with me.

so why did you spend so much time on this thread? to be honest, if you don't give a fuck about iberians, you wouldn't waste time on this topic and others like it.

Now about the germans:

None?
Eurogenes K13:

Population
North_Atlantic 49.07 Pct
Baltic 28.38 Pct
West_Med 11.07 Pct
West_Asian 7.85 Pct
East_Med 0.64 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.71 Pct
East_Asian 1.56 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.69 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Well, i wasnt talking exclusively about East Asian, but the entire non-western eurasia, ok.

[Jana]

so why did you spend so much time on this thread? to be honest, if you don't give a fuck about iberians, you wouldn't waste time on this topic and others like it.

I am interested in genetics. And I couldn't care less that NA admix in Iberia makes you triggered, that is none of my business.


Now about the germans:

None?
Eurogenes K13:

Population
North_Atlantic 49.07 Pct
Baltic 28.38 Pct
West_Med 11.07 Pct
West_Asian 7.85 Pct
East_Med 0.64 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.71 Pct
East_Asian 1.56 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.69 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Well, i wasnt talking exclusively about East Asian, but the entire non-western eurasia, ok.

That's one example and on average and group level they score none. So completely outlandish, false and uncomparable claim.

[Urbanuss]

I am interested in genetics. And I couldn't care less that NA admix in Iberia makes you triggered, that is none of my business.

That's one example and on average and group level they score none. So completely outlandish, false and uncomparable claim.

False? LOLOLOLOL :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Cope!

Let's be fair, are you also interested in non-Euro admixes of Northern Europeans?

prove they're not pure, let's see if you're a crypto-nordicist hoe or a simple genetics enthusiast.

[Urbanuss]

That's one example and on average and group level they score none. So completely outlandish, false and uncomparable claim.

Some of they do, not just one, lel.

At least we can call them "Kebabs" because of high WA that peaks in Caucasus, Turkey, Iraq and Iran.

[Urbanuss]

The cheap hooker Feiichy and other TA members be like:

https://i.imgur.com/K52kUJm.png

[gixajo]

So we call germans "Huns" because of some ancient east eurasian ancestry?

if the NA of the Iberians does not come from the Muslim invasions, they should not be called "Moors".

otherwise, other Europeans would be called Arabs, Turks, Mongols, or Iranians for some reasons.

The thread is about NA admixture not about anyone calling Moors to Iberians.

Anyway, a good chunk of those % must be actually from the muslim rule of the peninsula, and probably including Galician or Asturian.

We have discussed the matter many times, I am not going to repost the reasons why such an admixture possibly came to an area where there is supposed to have been no continuous Muslim control for a considerable time.

[Urbanuss]

Anyway, a good chunk of those % must be actually from the muslim rule of the peninsula, and probably including Galician or Asturian.

These percentages of NA are much more likely to come from historical events prior to the Muslim invasions, considering that Galicia and Asturias scores more than Andalusia. There must be one or another Galician/Asturian with true Moorish ancestry, but it must be isolated cases, considering that these regions never had moorish settlements (see my map in a previous reply) and Asturias was never conquered by kebabs.

I never denied the non-euro admix in Iberians, I just can't stand trolls emphasizing it and treating my ancestors like extra-european bastards, as if other Europeans didn't have non-euro admix (ancient or recent).

[gixajo]

Double.

[gixajo]

These percentages of NA are much more likely to come from historical events prior to the Muslim invasions, considering that Galicia and Asturias scores more than Andalusia. There must be one or another Galician/Asturian with true Moorish ancestry, but it must be isolated cases, considering that these regions never had moorish settlements (see my map in a previous reply) and Asturias was never conquered by kebabs.

I never denied the non-euro admix in Iberians, I just can't stand trolls emphasizing it and treating my ancestors like extra-european bastards, as if other Europeans didn't have non-euro admix (ancient or recent).

Your map proves nothing, it just shows known moriscos settlements from the late 16th century.

The NA and African admixture has been present in the Iberian Peninsula in small amounts since ancient times, but until we can see results of a good number of individuals from the peninsular northwest that show respectable amounts of NA admixture in times prior to the Muslim invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, I believe that the most likely option is that of internal population movements and resettlements, forced or not, during the reconquest and after it, to areas far away first from the border areas with the Muslims, and later to coastal areas or major cities to avoid large population centers of dubious fidelity.

We have talked a lot about this, here and in different forums, and we have shown things that are much more founded and interesting than your map.

If you are being trolled it is because you can be easily trolled, you have exaggerated reactions until shameful extremes to the proven fact of the NA admixture in Spanish and Portuguese.

Even I am tempted to troll you.:rolleyes:

The "extra-European bastards" thing is ridiculous apart from a lack of respect for your ancestors, keep in mind that the NA component is extra-European, whether it is ancient or from the time of Muslim control of the peninsula.

In any case, Spain and Portugal reached the peak of their heyday being extra-European bastards, apart from that, North Africans are as respectable people or more than North Europeans, I don't understand that phobia that some of you have with them.

[Urbanuss]

Even I am tempted to troll you.:rolleyes:

obviously i've noticed that lol




Your map proves nothing

Sure?



I don't understand that phobia that some of you have with them.

For the same reason that other europeans have "phobia" with mongols, turks, arabs, gypsies or every other shit

[Urbanuss]

The "extra-European bastards" thing is ridiculous apart from a lack of respect for your ancestors, keep in mind that the NA component is extra-European, whether it is ancient or from the time of Muslim control of the peninsula.
.

If doesnt matter if are ancient or no, so this rule applies to non-euro components among other europeans?

Well, If really doesnt matter when It comes, we can say that every european is "Kebab", "Ching Chong", Sandnigger" or "South Asian Kebab Niggers" (Gedrosia) admixed.

[Urbanuss]

The NA and African admixture has been present in the Iberian Peninsula in small amounts since ancient times, but until we can see results of a good number of individuals from the peninsular northwest that show respectable amounts of NA admixture in times prior to the Muslim invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, I believe that the most likely option is that of internal population movements and resettlements, forced or not, during the reconquest and after it, to areas far away first from the border areas with the Muslims, and later to coastal areas or major cities to avoid large population centers of dubious fidelity

But weren't most of muslims just islamized Iberians? lel

Nah, i prefer to believe that ancient immigrations and historical events during Roman Empire times brought these amount of NA in NW iberia, the Reconquista was efficient.

[gixajo]

But weren't most of muslims just islamized Iberians? lel

Nah, i prefer to believe that ancient immigrations and historical events during Roman Empire times brought these amount of NA in NW iberia, the Reconquista was efficient.

The truth must be seen from the front and accepted.

It's not about believing it or not, it's how it is, and not accepting it puts you at a level of vulnerability, and that's what trolls take advantage of to provoke you.

And no, you map don´t prove anything, just iself.

I am not saying that it is not as you say, I am saying that up to now, it is not sufficient or incontestable to explain reality.

[gixajo]

We can summarize all this issue with what Feiichy said here:


Weather it's from Moors or before that, it is exact same type of Ancestry.

From there, discriminate what percentage of that admixture comes from one or another time falls within the category of hypothetical speculations.

But I believe that the reality of Muslim rule over a large part of the Iberian Peninsula and its genetic influence over modern Iberian populations is indisputable, so denying that obvious influence, try to minimize it or treat it as something negative seems pathetic to me.

And don't worry, genes don't profess any religion.

[Urbanuss]

We can summarize all this issue with what Feiichy said here:

We can include other euros in the same situation:

Weather it's from Huns and Mongols (East/North Eurasian), Ottomans (West Asian/Southwest Asian) or Gedrosia (South/Southeast Asian)or before that, it is exact same type of Ancestry.

Thats to make it clear that no European is 100%, I mean the trolls who call the Iberians "mongrels".

So every euro is mongrel lol, since we shouldn't care about when these extra-euro components became part of the European DNA.

The creator of one-drop-rule should be crying xd


But I believe that the reality of Muslim rule over a large part of the Iberian Peninsula and its genetic influence over modern Iberian populations is indisputable, so denying that obvious influence, try to minimize it or treat it as something negative seems pathetic to me.

Lel

[Urbanuss]

The truth must be seen from the front and accepted.

It's not about believing it or not, it's how it is, and not accepting it puts you at a level of vulnerability, and that's what trolls take advantage of to provoke you.

And no, you map don´t prove anything, just iself.

I am not saying that it is not as you say, I am saying that up to now, it is not sufficient or incontestable to explain reality.

Nah, i've seen a source mentioning a book saying that the supposed Moors, mostly, were native iberians converted to Islam, regarding the insignificant phenotype difference between them, i'll try to look for that source, if I find it, I'll post it here.

[gixajo]

We can include other euros in the same situation:

Weather it's from Huns and Mongols (East/North Eurasian), Ottomans (West Asian/Southwest Asian) or Gedrosia (South/Southeast Asian)or before that, it is exact same type of Ancestry.

Thats to make it clear that no European is 100%, I mean the trolls who call the Iberians "mongrels".

So every euro is mongrel lol, since we shouldn't care about when these extra-euro components became part of the European DNA.




Lel

We are talking about Iberians, no about other Europeans.

I don't see the need to dirty others to feel cleaner yourself.

Let's leave the subject now, if you want to neutralize the trolls, regardless of whether our opinions differ on this matter, change your strategy, with your attitude the only thing you do is cause more troll threads.

I have no intention of arguing with you, that would also bring pleasure to the trolls.

Try to see things as they are rather than how you would like them to be.

The things of the past are not in our hands to change them, but we do have a certain capacity to influence the future, and for this we must be faithful to reality, so that the foundations of that future are solid.

And with these ridiculously bombastic master Yoda-type phrases, I leave the subject. If you don't mind, stop quoting me, I don't want to say anything again in this thread.:)

[Urbanuss]

I don't see the need to dirty others to feel cleaner yourself.

Because the others say they are super clean without any dirt, thats comic.

Nobody comments about Balochistan (Gedrosia) admix on europeans because everyone has, thats what i think


And with these ridiculously bombastic master Yoda-type phrases, I leave the subject. If you don't mind, stop quoting me, I don't want to say anything again in this thread.:)

Sorry, but english isnt my native language comrade, so sometimes some words can be confuse.

Loki must kill this thread

[Cristiano viejo]

see my map in a previous reply
Gixajo is right, that map just shows the presence of Moors after the war of the Alpujarras, when the Moors of Eastern Andalusia were defeated and relocated during 30 years until their definitive expulsion.


North Africans are as respectable people or more than North Europeans

You know same than me that the regular Spanish dislike North Africans and does not think they are respectable people, rather the opposite.

[Urbanuss]

Nah, i've seen a source mentioning a book saying that the supposed Moors, mostly, were native iberians converted to Islam, regarding the insignificant phenotype difference between them, i'll try to look for that source, if I find it, I'll post it here.

La Espana Mora (The Moor Spain) - Richard Fletcher

[Blazhe]

Both Iberia and Sicily have a complex genetic history, with significant North African admixture in some regions and populations. However, it is difficult to make direct comparisons between the two regions, as the amount and distribution of North African admixture can vary widely within and between populations.

In general, studies have found that populations in southern Iberia, particularly in Andalusia and the Balearic Islands, have relatively high levels of North African admixture, reflecting the historical connections and cultural exchanges between North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula over many centuries.

Similarly, some regions of Sicily, particularly in the western part of the island, also have high levels of North African admixture, reflecting the historical connections and cultural exchanges between North Africa and Sicily over many centuries.

[Jingle Bell]

Western Iberia have more North African blood. (8 - 12% in W. Iberia) vs (4% - 8% in Sicily)
- In Iberia was from North Africans from Neolthic - Copper Age, Punics and in minor extend Moors, while in Sicily was mainly from Moors, Migrants from Roman Era and Punics.

Sicily have more West Asian blood. (35% - 45% in Sicily) vs (6% - 12% in Iberia)
- In Iberia was mainly from Imperial Romans, prob Greeks also, while in Sicily from the Greeks colonies and migrants from Roman Era.