PH908 subclades migration

[Jana]

https://southslavsdna.blogspot.com/2019/07/ph908-subclades-migration.html

In the previous and multi-disciplinary post, "South Slavic origin and I2a-Dinaric South (PH908)", it was concluded that the main movement of the Slavs to Southeastern Europe was from an area in Eastern Europe, roughly Eastern Carpathians and Western Ukraine. In regard to genetic studies results that were primarily based on the frequency and variance of contemporary populations, this post will have a different approach. Considering the conclusion that the haplogroup I-PH908 arrived in the Early Middle Ages from the North, it will be a synthesis of the countries of origin of the I-PH908 subclades found at the YFull YTree v7.09.00 and Y-Haplogroup I2a Project (including a post from 14 October 2019) at FTDNA. The information will be used to make a simplified draft tree, approximately visually localize them North of Southeastern Europe, and presume the subclades movement to Southeastern Europe. However, it is emphasized that the information is based on a very limited and biased number of samples who made NGS test and does not necessarily reflect reality.

DYS561=15:

0) I-PH908*: "Czech Republic", "Germany", "Latvia", Poland, Russia etc.

1) A356/Z16983*: "Hungary", "Poland", Albania, Serbia, United States
* Y110105*: Germany
** Y97246: Russian Federation/Finland
*** BY188785: Czech Republic, Poland
* A493*: Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, "Croatia", "Germany", "Greece", "Montenegro", "Serbia", Slovakia, "Ukraine", USA
** Y6651/Y6652: Czech Republic
** BY169115: Italy, Serbia
** A8740/A8741*: Germany, "Poland"
*** Y59865: United States

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jLSiVy1nGlo/XRl8BZIcoMI/AAAAAAAAAJU/pIrbuUKeuUQ9Dyb9XpJKc2Y7ECu4-iZjQCLcBGAs/s640/Z16983.png

2) A5913/A5914*: Croatia, 2x Central or Eastern Europe
* A22312*: Montenegro
** BY154460/BY152858: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro
* A16863: Finland, Russian Federation, Ukraine

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZBUDU2EwZnY/XRl8VhzuQqI/AAAAAAAAAJc/eJY6v_vWOMwdWHREpSjGrLWblf1yxz9WwCLcBGAs/s640/A5913.png

3) Y32084
* Y140541: Bulgaria, Greece
* PH3310/A14301*: Ukraine
** A20333: Kosovo, Ukraine
*** FT14649: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia
** PH1012/PH3314: Serbia

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-93Ts8gu9hVE/XRl8n83d2lI/AAAAAAAAAJk/19ao-B9qIJczKlo54N1W3AMr6LzHhsfJgCLcBGAs/s640/Y32084.png

4) Y84307/BY87256*5+SNPs: Croatia

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QhgsQcsiitg/Xbm3kPRCOZI/AAAAAAAAAMk/8TU0vHVxSys_nRlGizDv_3hhk4FSmvqwACK4BGAYYCw/s640/Y84307.png

5) FT168731*7+SNPs: Kazakhstan

6) BY198275: Poland
* P41.2/M359.2

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EvxH9oVHEhc/XeK4y1FwECI/AAAAAAAAAOE/y67sacxmk24DugXKYSEKhb3Ya4Pkype1ACEwYBhgL/s640/FT168731.png

DYS561=16

0) I-PH908*: Bulgaria, Montenegro, Germany, "Poland", "Ukraine", Serbia etc.

1) FT16449*: "Bosnia and Herzegovina", Bulgaria, Montenegro, Russian Federation
* Y126296: Bosnia and Herzegovina
** Y81557: Serbia
*** Y99196: Croatia
* BY173308: Bosnia and Herzegovina
* FT138628: Bulgaria, Serbia
* Y99608: Germany, Poland
* Y151633
** FT33812: United States (Croatia)
** BY169079: Bosnia and Herzegovina
*** Y144303
**** Y144305: Austria, Croatia
**** A22770/BY170155: Croatia

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GJsRZRslgls/XRl8z14JXaI/AAAAAAAAAJo/AgWLVT8BdYU72cklP_6A-v_15jpfSnBfwCLcBGAs/s640/FT16449.png

2) BY97555/Y51673*3+SNPs: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovakia

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M93phIYk2wc/XRl9DKzFdKI/AAAAAAAAAJw/o8_WzFlhTOkubP-o2YuZhjQpUsYKy0ZaQCLcBGAs/s640/BY97555.png

3) FT14506*: Hungary, Bosnia and Herzegovina
* A13912*: Bulgaria
** A13907*/Y30729*/BY37511*: Croatia, "Hungary"
*** BY106777: Croatia
* BY135769/BY14506: Poland (Galicia), Russian Federation
* FT41224
** Y52621: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Moldova, Serbia
** BY191170/BY191770: Croatia
*** BY189804: Bulgaria
* Y56203*: Poland (Galicia), Montenegro
** Y134603/Y134578: Montenegro, Serbia

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z51xciTSmY4/XRl9cP42keI/AAAAAAAAAKI/5n_NsmIrKygxwuv2P2lcumQeH9Y4CVq3ACEwYBhgL/s640/FT14506.png

When all the maps are merged it indicates that there's a higher variance of I-PH908 subclades in Eastern Europe than in Central Europe and that from Eastern Europe migrated in the direction of West and South. The most if not all subclades arrived in Southeastern Europe from Eastern Europe, roughly along the area of Eastern Carpathian Mountains and through Carpathian Basin, most probably during the period of Pannonian Avars and revolts against them by Slavs and Bulgars by the mid-7th century. It is not excluded a possibility of a very limited Polabian Slavic contribution (only for subclades Z16983 and FT16449). The samples belonging to currently unknown subclades are also largely from the countries in Eastern Europe, while in Southeastern Europe particularly Bulgaria, which also indicates the movement's direction. The result supports the conclusions from the previous post.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ny44OykoO0w/XRmDzSm2WqI/AAAAAAAAAKU/BkY0WI-HX2wcTz4hGlhDn5P8ZtTcowSwQCEwYBhgL/s640/All%2Bmerged%2Bwith%2Barrows%2Band%2Bsubclades.png
A merged map with arrows of migration and subclades list

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8S9qoHXeDDc/XRnzcy_mivI/AAAAAAAAAKc/TbjHdhCwS8MgMgdlZPuDgL6K-JT092GmgCLcBGAs/s640/All%2Bmerged%2Bwith%2Barrows%2Bconsidering%2Bgeogr aphy.png
Presumed movement of the Slavs along the edges of Carpathians, and through Moravian Gate in the West, considering geographical relief but assuming it was only through lowlands and excluding all mountain passes (e.g. Verecke Pass)

[Cumansky]

Throw this thread in the garbage lol

[Jana]

Throw this thread in the garbage lol

Your input isn't needed, imbecile. You have absolutely nothing to do with PH908.

[Cumansky]

Your input isn't needed, imbecile. You have absolutely nothing to do with PH908.

Fuckoff you don't have any Y-DNA

[Jana]

Fuckoff you don't have any Y-DNA

My father is PH908. Fuck off from my thread ugly Goblin.

[Cumansky]

My father is PH908. Fuck off from my thread ugly Goblin.

Your Father look like birthdefect Austrian same as you

[Jana]

Your Father look like birthdefect Austrian same as you

You look like British working class with 80 IQ and pig face. Ugly as hell.

[Cumansky]

You look like British working class with 80 IQ and pig face. Ugly as hell.

Ok you got me

I2 is Vlach

[Jana]

I am currently in process of determining PH908 subclade for my paternal side, if there is any. So far, they are negative for A356/Z16983 SNP. I ordered DYS561 from yseq for 9 USD, and when I get value for that STR marker we will see what is next. Serbian member of Croatian forum is helping me with that matter. He seems quite knowledgable on this.

[MoroLP]

Thank you for sharing, will need to make an update soon. Y84307 has six other defining SNPs to test BY87256, Y93273, Y101738, Y106341, Y107377, Y112550. Six out of 7 can be ordered at YSeq Shop (https://www.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Y93273+or+Y101 738+or+Y106341+or+Y107377+or+Y112550+or+Y84307+or+ BY87256).

[Jana]

^^^^Welcome to the forum, Moro! Glad to have blog creator here :)
Looking forward to learn from you.

[MoroLP]

^^^^Welcome to the forum, Moro! Glad to have blog creator here :)
Looking forward to learn from you.

Thank you. Well, knowledge without sharing is useless. According to the blog data it is shared extensively on the web, in the end, it was useful for making it.

[Jana]

Thank you. Well, knowledge without sharing is useless. According to the blog data it is shared extensively on the web, in the end, it was useful for making it.

Do you know to which subclade you belong?

[MoroLP]

Do you know to which subclade you belong?

Yes, https://southslavsdna.blogspot.com/2019/10/ (I-Y84307).

[MoroLP]

I wasn't up to date for few months, according to Y-STR results, a Croat whose most distant paternal ancestors are from village Zmijavci in Southern Croatia is possibly a match for I-FT168415 subclade cluster which is in Tatarstan (previously was considered from Kazakhstan). It could be related to Hunnic, Avar, Cuman, Tatar etc. or more recent activity. Hopefully they will make a WGS test.

[Jana]

So, I just got my dad STR results. His value for DSY561 is 15.

What SNPs should I test next? He is negative for Z16983 so far. Thank you.

[MoroLP]

Well, it depends if any subclade can be predicted from haplotype results you have. If you want you can PM the haplotype (marker=result) and maybe could find you the subclade.

The largest subclade I-Z16983 is out, five known subclades and another five out of ten PH908* DYS561=15 subclades remain.

If is DYS438=9 probably is subclade I-Y84307.

If is DYS389I=14, DYS389II=33, and DYS456=16 probably is subclade I-FT168415.

[Ion Basescul]

So, I just got my dad STR results. His value for DSY561 is 15.

What SNPs should I test next? He is negative for Z16983 so far. Thank you.

Welcome to the DYS561=15 club.

[Bosniensis]

#MakePH908EuroAsianAgain aka #MPHEAA

[Jana]

Well, it depends if any subclade can be predicted from haplotype results you have. If you want you can PM the haplotype (marker=result) and maybe could find you the subclade.

The largest subclade I-Z16983 is out, five known subclades and another five out of ten PH908* DYS561=15 subclades remain.

If is DYS438=9 probably is subclade I-Y84307.

If is DYS389I=14, DYS389II=33, and DYS456=16 probably is subclade I-FT168415.

He has nothing distinctive sadly.

Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 ** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II ***
Value 13 24 16 11 14-15 11 13 14 13 11 31
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 17 8-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 12-14-15-15
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 10 10 21-21 15 12 18 18 34-37 11 10

I ordered A5913 SNP for a start :)

[Jana]

Great news, I finally found my dad din south subclade!

He is A5913 positive!!

current A5913 tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A5913/

Probably I will test even deeper, but not right now, already spent lot of money.

I was so excited to get email from yseq saying he is finally positive for one branch! <3

[Lucas]

Great news, I finally found my dad din south subclade!

He is A5913 positive!!

current A5913 tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A5913/

Probably I will test even deeper, but not right now, already spent lot of money.

I was so excited to get email from yseq saying he is finally positive for one branch! <3

You bought Big_Y for him?

[Jana]

You bought Big_Y for him?

Hey! Sorry for such late reply. I missed this post.
No, he tested 37 markers at FTDNA, than did specific STR and SNP testing at yseq. Lot cheaper that way and I was lucky because he was positive at second single SNP I ordered.

[Lucas]

Hey! Sorry for such late reply. I missed this post.
No, he tested 37 markers at FTDNA, than did specific STR and SNP testing at yseq. Lot cheaper that way and I was lucky because he was positive at second single SNP I ordered.

Yes, when you are lucky it is certainly the best option. Slavic Italian recently also bought single correct STR(?) in FTDNA and got correct subclade (the same like mine). Before I predicted he could have the same (knowledge from my ass only) and maybe why he bought it but anyway was strangely correct...

[Ion Basescul]

Thank you for sharing, will need to make an update soon. Y84307 has six other defining SNPs to test BY87256, Y93273, Y101738, Y106341, Y107377, Y112550. Six out of 7 can be ordered at YSeq Shop (https://www.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Y93273+or+Y101 738+or+Y106341+or+Y107377+or+Y112550+or+Y84307+or+ BY87256).

Is there any point in checking the rest of the shared/defining SNPs from a branch, if you don't match the "main" one?

If you take the PH908 tree from the I2a project (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jhmOTVCO7Nh-PQ0sMwT-QhUEYS9cBvH-/view), considering that I'm DYS561=15, I've tested negatively for those in red:

I-Z16983 Y4790/A356/Z16983-
I-A5913 A5913- A5914($) Y113524(?)
I-BY198275 BY198275-
I-Y32084 Y32084-
I-Y84307 BY87256(?) Y101738($) Y106341($) Y107377($) Y112550($) Y84307- Y93273($)

The only branch that's untested so far is FT168415, the one with two Volga Tatars.
But on YSEQ, you can't test for FT168415 directly (only for FT168731($) FT169314($)), so I am not sure what to do next.

I-FT169314 FT168203(?) FT168415(?) FT168731($) FT169314($) FT169458(?) FT171101(?) FT191197/Y182924(?) FT191199/Y182925(?)

I've asked Zdenko from the I2a project, but I am wondering what's your opinion on this as well.

[MoroLP]

Is there any point in checking the rest of the shared/defining SNPs from a branch, if you don't match the "main" one?

If you take the PH908 tree from the I2a project (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jhmOTVCO7Nh-PQ0sMwT-QhUEYS9cBvH-/view), considering that I'm DYS561=15, I've tested negatively for those in red:

I-Z16983 Y4790/A356/Z16983-
I-A5913 A5913- A5914($) Y113524(?)
I-BY198275 BY198275-
I-Y32084 Y32084-
I-Y84307 BY87256(?) Y101738($) Y106341($) Y107377($) Y112550($) Y84307- Y93273($)

The only branch that's untested so far is FT168415, the one with two Volga Tatars.
But on YSEQ, you can't test for FT168415 directly (only for FT168731($) FT169314($)), so I am not sure what to do next.

I-FT169314 FT168203(?) FT168415(?) FT168731($) FT169314($) FT169458(?) FT171101(?) FT191197/Y182924(?) FT191199/Y182925(?)

I've asked Zdenko from the I2a project, but I am wondering what's your opinion on this as well.

Of course, it is best to check all the SNPs defining the branch, especially if SNPs are not on an equal level.

Considering the amount of money you would spend I would rather advise you to think long-term. Spare some money over the year or two and then order an NGS test like Big-Y700 or better or a WGS test like Dante Labs, Nebula, at YSEQ perhaps are going to have a new product as well, etc. because you already know to be negative to the most if not all of the subclades. Before testing for FT168415, seemingly this subclade has some specific Y-STR mutations which were also found in a Croatian sample, so before order, do you have Y-STR marker results to compare the haplotypes (including with those in FTDNA database or trying to find it at 17 markers (Yfiler) at YHRD but beware to add +1 at marker Y-GATA-H4)? The same goes for other untested I-Y84307 and I-A5913 SNPs, as well we now have 7 defined DYS561=15 subclades. It wouldn't be surprising that you belong to one of the undefined I-PH908 subclades.