Not a troll thread, but south Italians are now proven to be closer to middle east?

[Karol Klačansky]

I really don't mean this as a troll thread but I was just in Southern Italy and was reading up on the latest studies on their genetics. It's seems to be a concensus now that South Italians are closer related to Levantine populations than to other western European populations? This is surprising to me

[Armenian Bishop]

Strangely, 23andMe misidentified much of my Armenian DNA Composition as Italian (several years ago). The error was corrected a little over a year ago, but it got me thinking. I mean: What sort of similarities in the DNA sources could've caused them to land 55% of my DNA Composition in Italy? Currently I've still got about 20% in Italy, but the remaining 35% was reclassified as Armenian.

[Lucas]

Strangely, 23andMe misidentified much of my Armenian DNA Composition as Italian (several years ago). The error was corrected a little over a year ago, but it got me thinking. I mean: What sort of similarities in the DNA sources could've caused them to land 55% of my DNA Composition in Italy? Currently I've still got about 20% in Italy, but the remaining 35% was reclassified as Armenian.
What abou your 25% Swiss? It is Italian Swiss maybe?

[MinervaItalica]

Random genetic studies online are bullshits. It's still seems hard for people here to realize it. I would trust original sources from my country studies only.

[Rocinante]

Random genetic studies online are bullshits. It's still seems hard for people here to realize it. I would trust original sources from my country studies only.

Depending on the region, they are some considerable amount of NA/ME ancestry. Western Sicily and Calabria are a good example.

[SUPREEEEEME]

I really don't mean this as a troll thread but I was just in Southern Italy and was reading up on the latest studies on their genetics. It's seems to be a concensus now that South Italians are closer related to Levantine populations than to other western European populations? This is surprising to me

As someone who is roughly half Middle Eastern half European, my closest populations after Ashkenazi Jews are West Sicilians, Maltese etc...

I think they plot half way between Europe and the Middle East, just like Ashkenazi Jews and Greek Islanders.

That's my take, anyway...

[Tauromachos]

What means closer to Middle East?

There is still neighbouring people closer to them than Middle Easterners are,
rest of Italians and Greeks

[Dunai]

I would be curious of these new scientific genetic studies before I believe it. The Mediterranean Sea is a major divide of human ancestry between its Northern and Southern areas. Those in the North (including South Italians) have largely European origin, while those in the South have largely MENA origin.

[Karol Klačansky]

Random genetic studies online are bullshits. It's still seems hard for people here to realize it. I would trust original sources from my country studies only.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492
Italian clusters separated into three main groups: Sardinia, Northern (North/Central-North Italy), and Southern Italy (South/Central-South Italy and Sicily); the first two were close to populations originally from Western Europe, while the last was closer to Middle Eastern groups (Fig. 1, A and B; figs. S1D and S2, A to C; and data file S1).

this is a legit scientific study from 2019, it schocked me as well. I knew southern italians had a lot of east med influence but I still assumed them to be genetically closer to french or austrians for example than to levantine populations, doesnt seem to be the case though.

[Karol Klačansky]

What means closer to Middle East?

There is still neighbouring people closer to them than Middle Easterners are,
rest of Italians and Greeks

the comparison was between southern italians and western europens, obviously they are closer to other italians and greeks. I want southern italians to belong to europe in every sense, but it seems they are something between europeans and middle eastern populations, like everyone has always thought. I used to argue hardcore back in the day that southern italians had less than 3% of their dna from the middle east, scientific studies used to claim that, but it seems the trolls were actually right.

[Loki]

Not rocket science nor surprising, the Levant is adjacent to Europe and many Levantines are indistinguishable from Europeans. There is a racial continuum.

[Karol Klačansky]

What means closer to Middle East?

There is still neighbouring people closer to them than Middle Easterners are,
rest of Italians and Greeks

the comparison was between southern italians and western europens, obviously they are closer to other italians and greeks. I want southern italians to belong to europe in every sense, but it seems they are something between europeans and middle eastern populations, like everyone has always thought. I used to argue hardcore back in the day that southern italians had less than 3% of their dna from the middle east, scientific studies used to claim that, but it seems the trolls were actually right.

[MinervaItalica]

S.Italians are closer to other Italians and Europeans more that to NA or ME, this has already been proven many times, not matter how much trolls will try hard to manipulate results.

There is no need to discuss about this everytime. It's a topic that pretty much become boring by now.

[Samnium]

Depending on the region, they are some considerable amount of NA/ME ancestry. Western Sicily and Calabria are a good example.

Italy is highly variable, as well as Southern Italy.

The model "half European half Levantine" doesn't work for Apulians or Molisans that are Northern shifted and that can cluster in Central Italy too.


S.Italians are closer to other Italians and Europeans more that to NA or ME, this has already been proven many times, not matter how much trolls will try hard to manipulate results.

There is no need to discuss about this everytime. It's a topic that pretty much become boring by now.

Southern Italians are of course closer to Greeks and Central Italians but they are closer to Levantines than to 95% European countries, it's not something "wrong" or whatever, they are still distant to "Levantines".

[Samnium]

double

[Rocinante]

Italy is highly variable, as well as Southern Italy.

The model "half European half Levantine" doesn't work for Apulians or Molisans that are Northern shifted and that can cluster in Central Italy too.



Southern Italians are of course closer to Greeks and Central Italians but they are closer to Levantines than to 95% European countries, it's not something "wrong" or whatever, they are still distant to "Levantines".

I know mate, we discussed this before like a couple of times. Even Western Sicilians or Calabrians are more closer to europeans than the lebaneses or moroccans, but is a reality that they have levantine blood. Nothing wrong with that. Another theory i saw days ago is that they are not actually levantine, just that the levantines have greek and roman blood and that is just common ancestry between both populations.

[Samnium]

I know mate, we discussed this before like a couple of times. Even Western Sicilians or Calabrians are more closer to europeans than the lebaneses or moroccans, but is a reality that they have levantine blood. Nothing wrong with that. Another theory i saw days ago is that they are not actually levantine, just that the levantines have greek and roman blood and that is just common ancestry between both populations.

In reality it's both ways. The closest Levantines to Europe have significant Steppe/EEF admixture that make them cluster closer to Europeans. At the same times Southern Italians, East Med more generally (including most of Central Italians and most of Greeks) show some degree of direct "Levantine" admixture. Also in some regions you can have other exotic sources like arabian/north-african.

Southern Italians as a whole are closer to Levantines than to French/Swiss people and even Spaniards. There are very outlying results also that are closer to Saudis than to Spaniards !

North-Africans can appear sometimes on oracles of Southern Italians if the guy/sample is heavily NA mixed and drifted towards North-African Jewish people.

[Rocinante]

In reality it's both ways. The closest Levantines to Europe have significant Steppe/EEF admixture that make them cluster closer to Europeans. At the same times Southern Italians, East Med more generally (including most of Central Italians and most of Greeks) show some degree of direct "Levantine" admixture. Also in some regions you can have other exotic sources like arabian/north-african.

Southern Italians as a whole are closer to Levantines than to French/Swiss people and even Spaniards. There are very outlying results also that are closer to Saudis than to Spaniards !

North-Africans can appear sometimes on oracles of Southern Italians if the guy/sample is heavily NA mixed and drifted towards North-African Jewish people.

Yes, i always said (and i think that makes sense) that the East Med marker it's just an euro bridge that connect levantines to greeks and italians, made by ancient greek and roman common ancestry. But i could be wrong.

[Kamal900]

Not rocket science nor surprising, the Levant is adjacent to Europe and many Levantines are indistinguishable from Europeans. There is a racial continuum.

I can't really say. I mean, me and my family may look Europeans on the outside, but genetically speaking, we're predominately MENA.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?42706-Members-Pictures-Thread-II&p=6507948&viewfull=1#post6507948

[catgeorge]

What are the point of these threads to troll Italians and South Europeans - do you consider yourself over and above?

Doesn't take a scientist to determine geneflow - look up equidistant in the dictionary it may answer your questions.

[Smeagol]

South Italians are like half way between North Italians and Lebanese. They're closest to Greeks and Jews.

[Benyzero]

They are european but genetically unique, with almost no ancient northern component and usually some NA dna. In this regard, they are similar to levantines

[Armenian Bishop]

What abou your 25% Swiss? It is Italian Swiss maybe?

I tried to reply earlier, but the forum had a glitch.

it's a fair point that my dad's father was Swiss. He came from a German Canton, on the southeastern side of Lake Biel, French Cantons are on the other side of the lake.

My point was that 23andMe botched it up several years ago, and classified more than half of my DNA as an Italian Component (54%); but, a little more than a year ago, they fixed it, and reclassified more than 30% of it as an Armenian Component. Currently, my Italian Component is less than 20% (17.8%); on the other hand, my French and German Component went up (22.5%).

I simply wondered as to why they misidentified so much of it as Italian, regardless of the fact that it was an error, and they botched it up badly.

[Adamastor]

South Italians are closer to Levantines than to many North Italians. Calabrians and Sicilians especially, but not only them.

Look at a Sicilian result:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi 3.27
2 East_Sicilian 6.35
3 South_Italian 6.35
4 Italian_Jewish 6.64
5 Central_Greek 7.31
6 Algerian_Jewish 7.51
7 Sephardic_Jewish 7.53
8 West_Sicilian 8.89
9 Italian_Abruzzo 9.92
10 Tunisian_Jewish 10.55
11 Libyan_Jewish 11.58
12 Greek_Thessaly 12.09
13 Cyprian 13.44
14 Tuscan 15.15
15 Lebanese_Muslim 17.18
16 Syrian 18.61
17 Samaritan 19.46
18 Lebanese_Druze 19.57
19 Bulgarian 20.28
20 Palestinian 20.32

North Italians don't even pop up and closer to Greeks and Cypriots than to Central Italians.

Look at a result from Veneto, North Italy:

1 North_Italian @ 9.179755
2 Romanian @ 11.980413
3 Serbian @ 11.982498
4 Spanish_Galicia @ 12.266570
5 Portuguese @ 12.458252
6 Tuscan @ 12.760246
7 Spanish_Cataluna @ 12.885787
8 French @ 12.887971
9 Bulgarian @ 13.392425
10 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 13.859756
11 Spanish_Extremadura @ 13.946191
12 Spanish_Murcia @ 14.356702
13 Greek_Thessaly @ 15.557526
14 Austrian @ 16.011047
15 Spanish_Andalucia @ 16.109505
16 Spanish_Valencia @ 16.186577
17 South_Dutch @ 16.511347
18 Hungarian @ 16.644129
19 West_German @ 16.808649
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 17.356918

South Italians also don't pop up. And this person is closer to Austrians and Germans than to South Italians.


When people say these things it may sound like ''trolling'' against Italians, but it's really not so and majority of Italians live in Northern and Central Italy, where levantized or greekfied outliers don't exist.

[Karol Klačansky]

What are the point of these threads to troll Italians and South Europeans - do you consider yourself over and above?

Doesn't take a scientist to determine geneflow - look up equidistant in the dictionary it may answer your questions.

Not to troll I just some how didn't realize that Sicilian and other South italians are genetically closer to the levant than even to Spaniards. This amazes me. Nothing wrong with it they still are a European people but I just assumed they were closer to us in blood as a whole than they were to modern Levantines but I just have to change the little boxes in my hear around of how I imagined Europe genetically.

[alpha.ghot]

I really don't mean this as a troll thread but I was just in Southern Italy and was reading up on the latest studies on their genetics. It's seems to be a concensus now that South Italians are closer related to Levantine populations than to other western European populations? This is surprising to me

That is very sad. Poor Italians (the founder of Roman Empire) are closer genetically to middle eastern people than to Europeans.

[Dorian]

I tried to reply earlier, but the forum had a glitch.

it's a fair point that my dad's father was Swiss. He came from a German Canton, on the southeastern side of Lake Biel, French Cantons are on the other side of the lake.

My point was that 23andMe botched it up several years ago, and classified more than half of my DNA as an Italian Component (54%); but, a little more than a year ago, they fixed it, and reclassified more than 30% of it as an Armenian Component. Currently, my Italian Component is less than 20% (17.8%); on the other hand, my French and German Component went up (22.5%).

I simply wondered as to why they misidentified so much of it as Italian, regardless of the fact that it was an error, and they botched it up badly.

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/8wdfza/why_so_much_armenian_became_italian/
https://www.reddit.com/r/armenia/comments/5i4x9w/our_roots_with_23andme/

[Karol Klačansky]

That is very sad. Poor Italians (the founder of Roman Empire) are closer genetically to middle eastern people than to Europeans.

Founders of Rome were genetically most similar to Spaniards.

[ProudBrit]

Founders of Rome were genetically most similar to Spaniards.

Show me in the Roman paper were does it say that until then i'll just assume it's just your anthrotard conclusion .

[Adamastor]

That is very sad. Poor Italians (the founder of Roman Empire) are closer genetically to middle eastern people than to Europeans.

Not true, most Italians live in Northern Italy and Central Italy and they are not closer to Middle Easterners than to Europeans. South Italians are actually some kind of Greek-like people with some Levant influences, they were never ''original Roman'' to begin with.

Original Romans are basically an extinct people, they plot with modern North Italians and Iberians by coincidence. They had very low levels of steppe/Indo-European admixture and higher levels of WHG. Modern Basques are probably the closest ones in autosomal profile, but Basques don't descend from Romans, rather preserve a type of autosomal DNA that was common in SW Europe in the past.

[Rocinante]

Founders of Rome were genetically most similar to Spaniards.

False. Founders of Rome are actual Central Italians.

[Adamastor]

False. Founders of Rome are actual Central Italians.

False as well. Founders of Rome don't exist anymore. They were very different from modern Iberians and North Italians (and Central Italians too). They had an archaic SW European profile, with lots of WHG +Neolithic and low steppe.

[Cumansky]

Yes

[Blondie]

False as well. Founders of Rome don't exist anymore. They were very different from modern Iberians and North Italians (and Central Italians too). They had an archaic SW European profile, with lots of WHG +Neolithic and low steppe.

Wrong, modern italians are very close to romans, the foreign genetic influence was not much:

"It is generally agreed that the invasions that followed for centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire did not significantly alter the local gene pool, because of the relatively small number of Germanics, or other migrants, compared to the large population of what constituted Roman Italy.[2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy

[Cumansky]

South Italians can pass in Maghreb and viceversa

[MercifulServant]

They are but who even cares about autosomal dna.

[Cumansky]

They are but who even cares about autosomal dna.

I do nigga

[MercifulServant]

I do nigga

Its really irrelevant when it comes to determining identity. Identity is all about culture/language.

[Cumansky]

Its really irrelevant when it comes to determining identity. Identity is all about culture/language.

Ok so if you speak Turkish then you are Turk I guess? Is that what you are saying idk

[MercifulServant]

Ok so if you speak Turkish then you are Turk I guess? Is that what you are saying idk

I never said that. Turks are people who identify as turk, have a surname that's turk and were born and raised as turk. Sicilians are just as italic as any other group in Italy. some ancient genetics is irrelevant when it comes to that. They were born and raised as Italians and identify with Italians, and their culture is italic.

[Samnium]

South Italians are closer to Levantines than to many North Italians. Calabrians and Sicilians especially, but not only them.

Look at a Sicilian result:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi 3.27
2 East_Sicilian 6.35
3 South_Italian 6.35
4 Italian_Jewish 6.64
5 Central_Greek 7.31
6 Algerian_Jewish 7.51
7 Sephardic_Jewish 7.53
8 West_Sicilian 8.89
9 Italian_Abruzzo 9.92
10 Tunisian_Jewish 10.55
11 Libyan_Jewish 11.58
12 Greek_Thessaly 12.09
13 Cyprian 13.44
14 Tuscan 15.15
15 Lebanese_Muslim 17.18
16 Syrian 18.61
17 Samaritan 19.46
18 Lebanese_Druze 19.57
19 Bulgarian 20.28
20 Palestinian 20.32

North Italians don't even pop up and closer to Greeks and Cypriots than to Central Italians.

Look at a result from Veneto, North Italy:

1 North_Italian @ 9.179755
2 Romanian @ 11.980413
3 Serbian @ 11.982498
4 Spanish_Galicia @ 12.266570
5 Portuguese @ 12.458252
6 Tuscan @ 12.760246
7 Spanish_Cataluna @ 12.885787
8 French @ 12.887971
9 Bulgarian @ 13.392425
10 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 13.859756
11 Spanish_Extremadura @ 13.946191
12 Spanish_Murcia @ 14.356702
13 Greek_Thessaly @ 15.557526
14 Austrian @ 16.011047
15 Spanish_Andalucia @ 16.109505
16 Spanish_Valencia @ 16.186577
17 South_Dutch @ 16.511347
18 Hungarian @ 16.644129
19 West_German @ 16.808649
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 17.356918

South Italians also don't pop up. And this person is closer to Austrians and Germans than to South Italians.


When people say these things it may sound like ''trolling'' against Italians, but it's really not so and majority of Italians live in Northern and Central Italy, where levantized or greekfied outliers don't exist.

1/3 of italian population live in Southern Italy, I'm not even talking about people with partial southern ancestry or that have emigrated up north

And one thing : I've seen outliers from Central Italy so don't think that's only at the south.

And yes the way you put it it sounds very trollish.

[Cumansky]

I never said that. Turks are people who identify as turk, have a surname that's turk and were born and raised as turk. Sicilians are just as italic as any other group in Italy. some ancient genetics is irrelevant when it comes to that. They were born and raised as Italians and identify with Italians, and their culture is italic.

Ok, but to me they (Italian) look Mena because they are

And I related with Turks from Turkey with -ic ending, and Bulgarian ending, Ukrainian ending, Russian ending, Romanian/Moldavian ending, etc. Never any -ski ending for a Turk this is all I know

[Voskos]

Am I white or shittyskin?

Distance to: voskos
2.30423523 R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
2.64312315 R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro
3.36422354 R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
3.47590276 R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.73966576 R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
3.77919304 R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.02430118 R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.14362160 R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.72515608 R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
5.06906303 R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
5.17518116 R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.19632562 R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
5.46508005 R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
5.85532237 R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.98910678 R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.45645414 R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.50131525 R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.65229284 R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.76221857 CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53
6.79740392 R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
6.80252159 R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
7.12657000 R137_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro
7.23680178 R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche
7.31232521 R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
7.40029729 R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

[Adamastor]

Wrong, modern italians are very close to romans, the foreign genetic influence was not much:

"It is generally agreed that the invasions that followed for centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire did not significantly alter the local gene pool, because of the relatively small number of Germanics, or other migrants, compared to the large population of what constituted Roman Italy.[2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy

You're posting a wikipedia article and you don't know shit about genetics. I had to correct you many times before.


This answers the question that people have been asking for decades: are modern Romans descended from the people of Republican Rome or Greeks and Syrians who transformed themselves into Romans? The answer is neither. Modern Romans descend from Italian peasants, who were less impacted by the predations of the Goths and Byzantines, and had higher fertility than urban dwellers even in peaceful times.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/11/07/syrian-orontes-has-long-since-dried-up-to-be-replaced-by-the-tiber-once-more/


If you run Iron Age Romans in G25 you would see they come up mostly as Neolithic + WHG with very little steppe, less than modern Northern and even Central Italians. Then Republican Romans became more Middle Eastern shifted with conquests and lately, after the fall of Rome, the city was repopulated by Italian peasants with smaller levels of Middle Eastern ancestry.

[ProudBrit]

You're posting a wikipedia article and you don't know shit about genetics. I had to correct you many times before.



https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/11/07/syrian-orontes-has-long-since-dried-up-to-be-replaced-by-the-tiber-once-more/


If you run Iron Age Romans in G25 you would see they come up mostly as Neolithic + WHG with very little steppe, less than modern Northern and even Central Italians. Then Republican Romans became more Middle Eastern shifted with conquests and lately, after the fall of Rome, the city was repopulated by Italian peasants with smaller levels of Middle Eastern ancestry.

The reality is that from the Roman paper the republicans were not early romans but just latins( and other italic tribes) whom were assimilated by the romans(who were of classical greek stock).The italic tribes were descendent from the Urnfield culture, they were a bunch of savage subhumans who were assimilated already by the time of the early republic, this is something the roman historians wrote themselves many times over.Here are your superior early "romans" :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Settlement%2C_Urnfield_culture%2C_Untermainbach%2C _model_at_1_to_32_scale_-_Naturhistorisches_Museum_N%C3%BCrnberg_-_Nuremberg%2C_Germany_-DSC04219.jpg/1280px-Settlement%2C_Urnfield_culture%2C_Untermainbach%2C _model_at_1_to_32_scale_-_Naturhistorisches_Museum_N%C3%BCrnberg_-_Nuremberg%2C_Germany_-DSC04219.jpg

Republic Rome
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/86/63/36/8663363ab90edefeed2861b8e9ecf70d.jpg

Ancient Athens
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/47/fc/92/47fc92bb862ee9e025ae3cf8c263fb34.jpg

[Adamastor]

1/3 of italian population live in Southern Italy, I'm not even talking about people with partial southern ancestry or that have emigrated up north

And one thing : I've seen outliers from Central Italy so don't think that's only at the south.

And yes the way you put it it sounds very trollish.

Central Italians who look like South Italians genetically exist only in Southern Lazio, a region that speaks southern dialects. Show me a single Tuscan similar to Sicilians and we can talk.

Well, Italians as a population are 2/3 non-southern, so defining Italian identity based on a southern minority is absurd. But I do agree that many North Italians nowadays have mixed with southern immigrants. Probably we need a new populational explosion in Alpine regions to make North Italy fully North Italian again.

[MinervaItalica]

That is very sad. Poor Italians (the founder of Roman Empire) are closer genetically to middle eastern people than to Europeans.

You wish that troll.


Founders of Rome were genetically most similar to Spaniards.

Mmm sorry but no.

[Cumansky]

You wish that troll.



Mmm sorry but no.

Founders of Rome were similar to Maghrebis

[MinervaItalica]

Founders of Rome were similar to Maghrebis

Do not confuse founders of Rome with your people.

[Cumansky]

Do not confuse founders of Rome with your people.

Shutup Longoboard goof

[Smeagol]

You wish that troll.

How would you know either way, when you have zero knowledge of genetics?

[MinervaItalica]

How would you know either way, when you have zero knowledge of genetics?

Well, most people here have zero knowledge of genetics for that reason.

Ancient Latins have no connections to ME nor "Maghrebis" stop with this blatant trolling just to spend the day.

South Italians are majority R1b like the rest.

[Samnium]

Central Italians who look like South Italians genetically exist only in Southern Lazio, a region that speaks southern dialects. Show me a single Tuscan similar to Sicilians and we can talk.

I've seen Marche results plotting in Southern Italy, and I'm not joking. So it's definitely possible and also you have to remind one thing : regions aren't uniform genetically in Italy, outliers are everywhere, and when I say "outliers" it can be in all the directions.



Well, Italians as a population are 2/3 non-southern, so defining Italian identity based on a southern minority is absurd. But I do agree that many North Italians nowadays have mixed with southern immigrants. Probably we need a new populational explosion in Alpine regions to make North Italy fully North Italian again.

Lol. There are millions of "full" southerners in the North, and I'm not even talking about Central Italy, cities like Rome that are full of Calabrians, Sicilians...

So the number is probably well above 1/3, not even counting those with partial ancestry as I've said.

You said that the majority of people don't live in Southern Italy, well it's true but if southerners have emigrated your statement becomes wrong.

[Smeagol]

Well, most people here have zero knowledge of genetics for that reason.

Ancient Latins have no connections to ME nor "Maghrebis" stop with with blatant trolling just to spend the day.

Most people here know more about genetics than you who just dismisses anything you don't like.

All genetic studies show that South Italians are closer to Levantines than most other Europeans, it's not trolling to point that out.

[MinervaItalica]

All biased genetic studies show that South Italians are closer to Levantines than most other Europeans, it's not trolling to point that out.

Fix'd

Impossible if they are majority R1b like the rest of Italians, again, stop comparing Italians to Levantines you're outdated and you won't convince anyone outside this forum.

[Leto]

Lol. There are millions of "full" southerners in the North, and I'm not even talking about Central Italy, cities like Rome that are full of Calabrians, Sicilians...

So the number is probably well above 1/3, not even counting those with partial ancestry as I've said.

You said that the majority of people don't live in Southern Italy, well it's true but if southerners have emigrated your statement becomes wrong.
That once made me curious as I'm generally interested in demography on a layman level. I did some research and found the following data

Population of Italy in 1961 (long before any mass migration from abroad)

Abruzzo - 1,206,000
Basilicata - 644,000
Calabria - 2,045,000
Campania - 4,761,000
Molise - 358,000
Puglia - 3,421,000
Sicilia - 4,721,000
Total - 17,156,000 (33.9%)

Italia - 50,623,000

Now, 60 years later, things may look somewhat different of course.

By the way, do you consider Abruzzo genetically Southern Italian?

[Samnium]

Fix'd

Impossible if they are majority R1b like the rest of Italians, again, stop comparing Italians to Levantines you're outdated and you won't convince anyone outside this forum.

Southern Italians are around 25/30% R1B whereas Northern Italy can reach up to 55%/60% and Central Italy is generally an intermediate.

After R1b, there is a prevalence of J1 (Arabian origin), J2 (Caucasus), E (related to North-Africans but that came originally from East Africa) and also G haplogroups (Caucasus as well). There are areas that have much more elevated R1B and particuliarly Italo-Celtic Y-DNA (like Cosenza in Calabria, where settled Bruttians that were a mix of Italic tribes).


That once made me curious as I'm generally interested in demography on a layman level. I did some research and found the following data

Population of Italy in 1961 (long before any mass migration from abroad)

Abruzzo - 1,206,000
Basilicata - 644,000
Calabria - 2,045,000
Campania - 4,761,000
Molise - 358,000
Puglia - 3,421,000
Sicilia - 4,721,000
Total - 17,156,000 (33.9%)

Italia - 50,623,000

Now, 60 years later, things may look somewhat different of course.

By the way, do you consider Abruzzo genetically Southern Italian?

Abruzzo is genetically Southern Italian, there are Molisans/Apulians/Sicilians that cluster above the Abruzzo averages. Molise is much more Central Italian shifted and closer to Lazio/Marche people.

[Leto]

Basically only Campania, Sicily and to a lesser extent Apulia are populous regions, the rest are pretty small and insignificant.

[Leto]

Southern Italians are around 25/30% R1B whereas Northern Italy can reach up to 55%/60% and Central Italy is generally an intermediate.

After R1b, there is a prevalence of J1 (Arabian origin), J2 (Caucasus), E (related to North-Africans but that came originally from East Africa) and also G haplogroups (Caucasus as well). There are areas that have much more elevated R1B and particuliarly Italo-Celtic Y-DNA (like Cosenza in Calabria, where settled Bruttians that were a mix of Italic tribes).
Sikeliot's paternal line is from our guys (aR1an) :cool:

[Smeagol]

Fix'd

Impossible if they are majority R1b like the rest of Italians, again, stop comparing Italians to Levantines you're outdated and you won't convince anyone outside this forum.

Just saying a study is biased doesn't make it so. The idea of geneticists conspiring to make South Italians seem more similar to Levantines is pretty funny though.

Bringing up R1b just shows you don't know what you're talking about. Y-DNA makes up only a tiny portion of your ancestry.

[Adamastor]

I've seen Marche results plotting in Southern Italy, and I'm not joking. So it's definitely possible and also you have to remind one thing : regions aren't uniform genetically in Italy, outliers are everywhere, and when I say "outliers" it can be in all the directions.


Well, yeah, but there are tendencies in each region. Most South Italians belong to East Med cluster, with Greeks, Cypriots and Jews. Northern Italians belong to Southwestern European cluster, with Iberians and Southern French. Central Italians, like Albanians, are intermediates.

You cannot see some Venetian scoring like a Sicilian or a Calabrian like a North Italian, it's impossible. Even Tuscans seem to be varied and North Tuscany is rather SW Euro instead of intermediary.

[Leto]

LOL :D
https://i.ibb.co/CJ9hR4M/IMG-20200218-204637.jpg

[Samnium]

Well, yeah, but there are tendencies in each region. Most South Italians belong to East Med cluster, with Greeks, Cypriots and Jews. Northern Italians belong to Southwestern European cluster, with Iberians and Southern French. Central Italians, like Albanians, are intermediates.

Southern French are at the fringe of SW Euro cluster, in that category I would put before anything else Iberians and Northern Italians.

Southern Italians that cluster with Cyprians are outliers, and very outlying results...

You cannot see some Venetian scoring like a Sicilian or a Calabrian like a North Italian, it's impossible.

I haven't said that but Central Italy has also outliers that plot in Southern Italy.

For southern Italians plotting in Northern Italy I think it's very unlikely to find a sample like that one day BUT we can't exclude it, I mean I have discovered a 10% East Anglia calabrian results, retaining Norman ancestry from Middle Ages ! (City at 10km of Mileto, a very important city for the Normans)

Italy has really places very isolated so finding a very archaic profile wouldn't surprise me.


Even Tuscans seem to be varied and North Tuscany is rather SW Euro instead of intermediary.

Northern Tuscans are SW Euros in all regards yes. They are close to Bergamo/Ligurians/Emilians. Also in Tuscany you would have people that would be Sardinian shifted (retaining Neolithic ancestry). I have seen a sample like that. Far from greeks but closer to Iberians.

[MinervaItalica]

LOL :D
https://i.ibb.co/CJ9hR4M/IMG-20200218-204637.jpg

That was pretty obvious.

[Leto]

That was pretty obvious.
Not really since Romanians, Albanians, etc. can also be regarded as white. At least in Italy they can easily pass as locals.

[MinervaItalica]

Not really since Romanians, Albanians, etc. can also be regarded as white. At least in Italy they can easily pass as locals.

Not the Albanians and to a lesser extent neither Romanians who can be very Eastern looking.

[Leto]

Not the Albanians.
Why not? On Gedmatch they come up as Tuscan, so you can flood Tuscany with Albos and still the genetic make-up of the region would remain more or less the same xD
Albanians are one of the closest groups to Italians genetically. Northern and Eastern Europeans and even most Spaniards and Frenchmen are more distant.

[MinervaItalica]

Why not? On Gedmatch they come up as Tuscan, so you can flood Tuscany with Albos and still the genetic make-up of the region would remain more or less the same xD
Albanians are one of the closest groups to Italians genetically. Northern and Eastern Europeans and even most Spaniards and Frenchmen are more distant.

Why everytime i talk about "passing" and phenotypes people bring up genetics? You people are on high or what?

[Leto]

Why everytime i talk about "passing" and phenotypes people bring up genetics? You people are mad or what?
Because your objection is ridiculous. In a country where natives can score 30% East Med and 6-7% Red Sea Albanians cannot pass as white? Give me a break. Maybe in Estonia or Ireland they would be seen as different but in Italy - no way.

[Faklon]

South Italians are Neolithic Anatolians with Mycenean shift, close to Aegean Bronze.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jean-Michel_Guinet/publication/259441354/figure/fig3/AS:271610733133833@1441768453301/Principal-Component-Analysis-PCA-on-all-present-day-west-Eurasians-with-ancient-samples.png

https://i.imgur.com/uKZsfhE.jpg

They are distant from North-Western Europeans but also from Levantine when there is more of a continuum in Europe than there is to the Levant bar the Jews who also have European ancestry, there is also a cline in the Levant. If some Levantines come as pure Anatolian Neolithic means that they lack a fundamental Semitic effect, in Byzantium the name Levantines was used for Europeans that lived in the Middle East rather than Arabs themselves.

Long story short, they fall in the triangle which consists of Anatolian(European) Neolithic, WHG/SHG and Steppe. They are far away from NW Europeans due to their lack of HG ancestry and they are far away from Arabs since the last have fundament Semitic effects. It's not that South Italians are NW European-Semitic hybrids but after the Neolithic revlution, the farmers mixed with gatherers in the North when they remained pure in the South. Iberia for example is a mix of Neolithic Anatolians and some WHG, SE Europe is a mix of Neolithic Europeans and some Steppe (with some HG ancestry in the Northern Balkans) and so on.

[Hajimurad]

Why everytime i talk about "passing" and phenotypes people bring up genetics? You people are on high or what?

It's off-topic question.
Did French (especially Occitan and Arpitan) people settle in Italy (as in Spain)? Which books or articles do you advise? I found information only about Provencal settlement in Lucera but user Peyrol wrote about Burgundians in Piedmont and Savoyards in Apulia.

[Samnium]

It's off-topic question.
Did French (especially Occitan and Arpitan) people settle in Italy (as in Spain)? Which books or articles do you advise? I found information only about Provencal settlement in Lucera but user Peyrol wrote about Burgundians in Piedmont and Savoyards in Apulia.

Some provencals in Calabria also, in Cosenza.

[Hajimurad]

Some provencal in Calabria also, in Cosenza.

Which book or article you advise?
About Cosenza - are they descendants of Waldensians?

[Token]

South Italians can be best approximated by a mixture of Cypriot-like Imperial Romans, plus Italic and North European. Italian genetic history was very messy, with contributions ranging from Scandinavia to Anatolia, which is why it is the most heterogeneous country of Europe. It was the center of antique Europe after all.

[Token]

Why everytime i talk about "passing" and phenotypes people bring up genetics? You people are on high or what?

Piss off, this thread is in the genetics section and you know nothing about genetics.

[MinervaItalica]

Piss off, this thread is in the genetics section and you know nothing about genetics.

I reply in every thread i want everytime i want. Neither you mixed brazillian clown.

[Scipio Africanus]

S.Italians are closer to other Italians and Europeans more that to NA or ME, this has already been proven many times, not matter how much trolls will try hard to manipulate results.

There is no need to discuss about this everytime. It's a topic that pretty much become boring by now.

Yes they are close to other Italians and part of the european group
https://i.postimg.cc/yNJVct3v/x.png

[MinervaItalica]

Yes they are close to other Italians and part of the european group

A sane person in a nest of biased troll rats.

[Adamastor]

These Italians discussing here are like the Italian versions of CV. Extremely illiterate and ignorant of genetics. This kind of low IQ gorilla thinks that geneticists are manipulating data to make South Italians part Levantine or Spaniards part North African...

[Token]

Thanks God TA and Italicroots Italians are just a bunch of lazy bums Neo Nazi outliers. Most Italians are intelligent enough to realize south and north Italians are not the same people.

[Leto]

Yes they are close to other Italians and part of the european group
This would be an average Italian (Corvo). His roots are from Lazio, Abruzzo and Emilia-Romagna

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 31.71
2 Caucasus 31.26
3 North_European 19.91
4 Southwest_Asian 8.2
5 Gedrosia 3.95
6 Northwest_African 3.39
7 East_Asian 1.25
8 Siberian 0.33

# Population (source) Distance
1 C_Italian (Dodecad) 4.39
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 4.84
3 Tuscan (HGDP) 6.85
4 Greek (Dodecad) 7.31
5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 7.63
6 Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.67
7 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 10.07
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 11.97
9 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 12.09
10 N_Italian (Dodecad) 12.72
11 North_Italian (HGDP) 14.28
12 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 15.77
13 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 15.96
14 Romanians (Behar) 16.92
15 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 17.01
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.31
17 Baleares (1000Genomes) 22.87
18 Galicia (1000Genomes) 24.11
19 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 24.57
20 Canarias (1000Genomes) 24.63

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 22.5% Canarias (1000Genomes) @ 1.68
2 78% Greek (Dodecad) + 22% Portuguese (Dodecad) @ 2.09
3 80.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 19.3% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.22
4 80.6% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 19.4% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.29
5 77.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 22.1% Extremadura (1000Genomes) @ 2.29
6 92.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 7.1% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.37
7 81.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 18.1% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.37
8 93.1% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 6.9% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.4
9 92.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 7.1% Chuvashs (Behar) @ 2.41
10 78.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 21.5% Murcia (1000Genomes) @ 2.43
11 93.3% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 6.7% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.45
12 79.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 20.5% Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes) @ 2.46
13 70.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 29.1% French (HGDP) @ 2.47
14 73.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 2.49
15 92.4% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 7.6% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.5
16 74.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 25.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 2.54
17 78% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22% German (Dodecad) @ 2.55
18 92.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 7.1% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.57
19 77.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 22.2% Galicia (1000Genomes) @ 2.59
20 51.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 48.7% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.6


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.23
2 West_Med 24.55
3 North_Atlantic 23.56
4 West_Asian 10.08
5 Baltic 9.2
6 Red_Sea 3.19
7 Siberian 1.6
8 Oceanian 0.48
9 Sub-Saharan 0.1

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 4.36
2 Tuscan 4.48
3 Italian_Abruzzo 6.26
4 Central_Greek 8.51
5 East_Sicilian 8.72
6 Greek_Thessaly 8.76
7 South_Italian 9.3
8 North_Italian 10.47
9 Ashkenazi 11.53
10 Italian_Jewish 14.2
11 Sephardic_Jewish 14.65
12 Algerian_Jewish 14.79
13 Bulgarian 15.95
14 Romanian 17.16
15 Spanish_Extremadura 18.49
16 Portuguese 18.79
17 Spanish_Andalucia 18.91
18 Tunisian_Jewish 19.13
19 Spanish_Murcia 19.42
20 Libyan_Jewish 19.68

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.2% Tuscan + 29.8% South_Italian @ 2.34
2 69.2% North_Italian + 30.8% Cyprian @ 2.39
3 53.2% South_Italian + 46.8% North_Italian @ 2.4
4 86% Tuscan + 14% Cyprian @ 2.5
5 51% West_Sicilian + 49% Tuscan @ 2.62
6 74.6% West_Sicilian + 25.4% North_Italian @ 2.67
7 80.2% Tuscan + 19.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.69
8 69.6% Tuscan + 30.4% Central_Greek @ 2.78
9 68.9% South_Italian + 31.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.81
10 88.1% West_Sicilian + 11.9% Southwest_French @ 2.83
11 73.6% South_Italian + 26.4% Southwest_French @ 2.83
12 70.4% Tuscan + 29.6% East_Sicilian @ 2.84
13 80.1% Tuscan + 19.9% Italian_Jewish @ 2.85
14 90% Tuscan + 10% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.88
15 70.1% South_Italian + 29.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.95
16 75.4% North_Italian + 24.6% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.96
17 86% West_Sicilian + 14% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.96
18 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% Samaritan @ 2.98
19 76.9% Tuscan + 23.1% Ashkenazi @ 2.98
20 51.9% Cyprian + 48.1% Southwest_French @ 3.02


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.33
2 Atlantic 19.45
3 West_Med 19.32
4 North_Sea 12.72
5 West_Asian 12.71
6 Baltic 7.1
7 Red_Sea 3.32
8 Siberian 1.44
9 Oceanian 0.58

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 4.79
2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.82
3 West_Sicilian 6.46
4 Central_Greek 8.23
5 East_Sicilian 8.33
6 Greek 8.93
7 South_Italian 8.95
8 Greek_Thessaly 9.42
9 North_Italian 10.36
10 Ashkenazi 11.46
11 Italian_Jewish 13.37
12 Bulgarian 14.24
13 Sephardic_Jewish 14.46
14 Algerian_Jewish 14.87
15 Romanian 15.91
16 Spanish_Andalucia 17.16
17 Spanish_Extremadura 17.39
18 Spanish_Murcia 17.53
19 Portuguese 17.73
20 Spanish_Valencia 18.63

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.6% South_Italian + 31.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.91
2 68.6% South_Italian + 31.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.09
3 54.1% South_Italian + 45.9% North_Italian @ 3.12
4 72.8% South_Italian + 27.2% Southwest_French @ 3.18
5 68.7% South_Italian + 31.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.22
6 71.9% South_Italian + 28.1% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.24
7 71.7% South_Italian + 28.3% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.33
8 70.8% Tuscan + 29.2% South_Italian @ 3.34
9 67.5% South_Italian + 32.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.37
10 67% South_Italian + 33% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.39
11 69.9% South_Italian + 30.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.42
12 67.9% South_Italian + 32.1% Portuguese @ 3.57
13 78.9% South_Italian + 21.1% French_Basque @ 3.64
14 69.5% Central_Greek + 30.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.65
15 74% Central_Greek + 26% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.66
16 67.5% South_Italian + 32.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.66
17 80.6% Central_Greek + 19.4% French_Basque @ 3.68
18 90.9% Tuscan + 9.1% Armenian @ 3.7
19 71.3% Central_Greek + 28.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.73
20 90.9% Tuscan + 9.1% Assyrian @ 3.74

[MinervaItalica]

Most Italians are intelligent enough to realize south and north Italians are not the same people.

You never seen an Italian in your life Brazillian, this is the point. Only old people in bars, supporters of the defunct Northern League would think that and also mixed white/black complexed Latin Americans like you.

[Scipio Africanus]

You never seen an Italian in your life Brazillian, this is the point. Only old people in bars, supporters of the defunct Northern League would think that and also white/black complexed Latin Americans like you.


He talk nosense,he just wants some attention.


Edit: about the neo-nazi thing etc too.

[Leto]

You never seen an Italian in your life Brazillian, this is the point. Only old people in bars, supporters of the defunct Northern League would think that and also mixed white/black complexed Latin Americans like you.
Isn't he fully Germanic?

[Samnium]

Which book or article you advise?
About Cosenza - are they descendants of Waldensians?

I don't have a book about that particular even though.

And yes Waldensians but they have been mostly massacrated so I don't think that you will find true descendant of them there.

[Token]

You never seen an Italian in your life Brazillian, this is the point. Only old people in bars, supporters of the defunct Northern League would think that and also mixed white/black complexed Latin Americans like you.

Putting together some fallacious sentences is the only thing your gorilla brain is capable of.

[Samnium]

South Italians can be best approximated by a mixture of Cypriot-like Imperial Romans, plus Italic and North European. Italian genetic history was very messy, with contributions ranging from Scandinavia to Anatolia, which is why it is the most heterogeneous country of Europe. It was the center of antique Europe after all.

The famous models with Imperial Romans + DEU Ma + Latin sample, work quite well but it's not true historically. The better would be a mixture of Italic, Levantine, Greek and some Northern Euro. Models with Myceneans and Minoans would make sense.

Otherwise yes Italy is by far the most heterogeneous country in Europe, everything varies, I think to have the exact genetical profile of Italy you would have to sample everyone basically. (excluded recent mixes)

Italian cluster would be all over the place between Iberia, Central Europe, Balkans and Levant.

[Token]

The famous models with Imperial Romans + DEU Ma + Latin sample, work quite well but it's not true historically. The better would be a mixture of Sardinian, Levantine, Greek and some Northern Euro.

Otherwise yes Italy is by far the most heterogeneous country in Europe, everything varies, I think to have the exact genetical profile of Italy you would have to sample everyone basically. (excluded recent mixes)

It makes sense historically because South Italy was once mostly Greek-speaking and it received lots of migrants from Hellenistic Anatolia. I believe people are overestimating the Levantine admixture in Italy, Anatolian Greek admixture is enough to account for the West Asian.

[Voskos]

Listen to your heart
When R1b U106 is calling for you.
Listen to your heart
There's nothing else you can do.
I don't know where you're going
And I don't know why,
But listen to your heart
Before you tell Sicily/Calabria goodbye.

https://snipboard.io/Na4qGb.jpg

[Samnium]

It makes sense historically because South Italy was once mostly Greek-speaking and it received lots of migrants from Hellenistic Anatolia. I believe people are overestimating the Levantine admixture in Italy, Anatolian Greek admixture is enough to account for the West Asian.

Well when I was talking about Greek it's not only Mycenean, Minoans, but also Anatolian Greeks indeed.

On some models made on professional studies you get a good fit with 10/20% ancient Canaanite source (like Levant_BA).

Indeed most of the WANA scored by Southern Italians on 23andme is Northern West Asian, not really "Levantine" but on Gedmatch and G25 you model well Southern Italians with Levantine sources. "Caucasus shifted" Italian samples aren't really really the norm in Southern Italy.

[MinervaItalica]

Isn't he fully Germanic?

In his wet nordicists dreams.

[savvas]

Forget Levantines, some southern Italians like neapolshitstains (napoleCANI) are literally intermediate between Scandinavians and bloody Egyptians:

https://i.imgur.com/oAQ3UWW.png

Just a quick rundown of N*ples and its inhabitants:

https://i.imgur.com/TpHypE8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1me7zjZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/SrKaLOe.jpg

Macerata (Marche, central Italy, ed) Neapolitan defendants do not understand Italian and ask for a translator.
Under indictment for drug dealing: they said they didn't understand the language and Judge Francesca Preziosi decided to appoint an interpreter for them. He will be the first to translate into Neapolitan the proceedings of a trial held in an Italian court.

https://i.imgur.com/gcey8mg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zDbknpz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/50N3oPt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WVWbNNJ.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4MQh1QaT2g

Also fuck genetics, can we turn this into a terrone hate thread please? I'll start:

https://i.imgur.com/v3tld2e.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4c5epkf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ygUlWoF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pw6iNYZ.jpg

"You're such a terrone, you suck": kindergarten teacher suspended for abuse in Varese.
The kindergarten teacher of Coquio Trevisago (Varese) has abused children since 2017, on twenty occasions

[Samnium]

Listen to your heart
When R1b U106 is calling for you.
Listen to your heart
There's nothing else you can do.
I don't know where you're going
And I don't know why,
But listen to your heart
Before you tell Sicily/Calabria goodbye.

https://snipboard.io/Na4qGb.jpg

I had noticed also a hotspot of I1 in some parts of Sicily and in Cosenza (6%).

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632943678658183219/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632944290938617897/unknown.png

Bruttians (Bruzi) inhabited this area as well with Samnite tribes.

https://www.famedisud.it/wp-content/uploads/166_sila_greca_calabria_sud_italia-1-di-1.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/ruins-of-fortifications-archaeological-site-of-castiglione-di-paludi-picture-id479647691?s=2048x2048


A bruttian warrior :

https://i0.wp.com/www.orsomarsoblues.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/pan-guerriero-brettio.jpg?resize=228%2C400
https://turningpointsoftheancientworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Tarentine2-809x1024.jpg

It's amazing how Y-DNA can be influenced by ancient civilizations.

[Leto]

In his wet nordicists dreams.
Why not? Have you ever heard the meme "I am Southern Brazilian, therefore Germanic"?
Also, Brazil probably has more full Italians than a few italian provinces combined.

[MinervaItalica]

Why not? Have you ever heard the meme "I am Southern Brazilian, therefore Germanic"?
Also, Brazil probably has more full Italians than a few italian provinces combined.

I don't get his obsession of dividing "North" and "South" Italians when Brazil is problaby the most mixed country in the world alongside US, who the hell knows what kind of mutt he is (not that i care). He would find more interesting to study his own kin genetics.

[Samnium]

...

Welcome back Dante Sabbatino, you have enough of Quora ?

[MinervaItalica]

Welcome back Dante Sabbatino, you have enough of Quora ?

Leave him, he's a well known rat who always needs his few seconds of attention.

These kind of entraces (bite and run) are part of his style.

[Samnium]

Leave him, he's a well known rat who always needs his few seconds of attention.

These kind of entraces (bite and run) are part of his style.

On Quora he's quite active. :laugh:

[savvas]

Welcome back Dante Sabbatino, you have enough of Quora ?

The fuck is a Dante Sabatino? Shit sounds like the most terronic name one could think of. Call me a nigger if you want, but a terrone? Hell no.

https://i.imgur.com/EIUZkYD.jpg

[samario]

South Italians and Greeks have some Levantine ancestry. They were the centre of Ancient Europe and were in much contact with Egypt, the Levant, Germania, etc.

[Samnium]

The fuck is a Dante Sabatino? Shit sounds like the most terronic name one could think of. Call me a nigger if you want, but a terrone? Hell no.

https://i.imgur.com/EIUZkYD.jpg

Sorry I thought that it was you...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669965869107118085/669968996480712714/unknown.png

https://i.imgur.com/ZE4frtf.png

https://i.imgur.com/Pi2ZOcb.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669965869107118085/669970721245495296/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669965869107118085/669978660371169280/unknown.png


https://www.quora.com/What-are-Itali...-of-explaining (https://www.quora.com/What-are-Italians-tired-of-explaining)
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-find-m...-John-Turturro (https://www.quora.com/Can-you-find-many-Italians-that-look-Tunisian-like-John-Turturro)
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Italian...ern-than-Turks (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Italians-look-more-Asian-and-Middle-Eastern-than-Turks)
https://www.quora.com/Which-European...-lightest-skin (https://www.quora.com/Which-Europeans-have-the-Darkest-skin-and-the-lightest-skin)
https://www.quora.com/Which-European...-lightest-skin (https://www.quora.com/Which-Europeans-have-the-Darkest-skin-and-the-lightest-skin)
https://www.quora.com/What-facial-fe...Italian-person (https://www.quora.com/What-facial-features-are-different-between-a-Greek-person-and-an-Italian-person)
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-south-...eyre-in-Europe (https://www.quora.com/Why-are-south-Europeans-not-including-Italians-considered-white-when-most-of-them-have-dark-features-and-look-much-different-from-typical-white-people-just-because-theyre-in-Europe)
https://www.quora.com/What-facial-fe...Italian-person (https://www.quora.com/What-facial-features-are-different-between-a-Greek-person-and-an-Italian-person)
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-tha...tral-Europeans (https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-you-can-t-distinguish-Northern-Central-Italians-from-French-and-other-Central-Europeans)
https://www.quora.com/Do-Italians-Gr...have-big-noses (https://www.quora.com/Do-Italians-Greeks-and-Arabs-have-big-noses)
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Holly...los-barbarians (https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Hollywood-place-British-actors-as-Greeks-and-Romans-being-that-real-Greeks-and-Romans-were-Mediterranean-and-considered-Anglos-barbarians)

[Smeagol]

Yes they are close to other Italians and part of the european group
https://i.postimg.cc/yNJVct3v/x.png

Lol, you actually took the time to edit Jews out of the chart. Too close to Sicilians/South Italians for you?
https://i.imgur.com/ANILbO7.png

And anyway this chart just confirms what everyone else is saying. Nobody is claiming that south Italians cluster with Levantines, but as you can see from the plot you posted, they're closer to them than to most other Europeans.

[Kamal900]

Lol, you actually took the time to edit Jews out of the chart. Too close to Sicilians/South Italians for you?
https://i.imgur.com/ANILbO7.png

And anyway this chart just confirms what everyone else is saying. Nobody is claiming that south Italians cluster with Levantines, but as you can see from the plot you posted, they're closer to them than to most other Europeans.

Exactly, yeah. Southern Italians are more closer to the Levant than to most European countries and peoples. I don't understand this..uh, the hate to be associated to the region really since the Levant is one of the earliest known civilizations which many of the oldest cities in the world are located in contrast to Northern and Eastern Europe.

[Smeagol]

Exactly, yeah. Southern Italians are more closer to the Levant than to most European countries and peoples. I don't understand this..uh, the hate to be associated to the region really since the Levant is one of the earliest known civilizations which many of the oldest cities in the world is located in contrast to Northern and Eastern Europe.

True, I don't think it's a negative thing.

[Kamal900]

True, I don't think it's a negative thing.

It's not really. If anything, it gives them more greater pride in who they are, and that they shouldn't feel lesser beings that say those from Northern and Eastern Europe due to their own racial phenotypes and so on. I'm not saying that they're not Europeans at all, but at the same time, there's nothing wrong on the fact that they're more closer to the Levant than to other Europeans.

[Samnium]

True, I don't think it's a negative thing.

Neither me.


Exactly, yeah. Southern Italians are more closer to the Levant than to most European countries and peoples. I don't understand this..uh, the hate to be associated to the region really since the Levant is one of the earliest known civilizations which many of the oldest cities in the world are located in contrast to Northern and Eastern Europe.

People don't understand that Druze/Lebanese are already 40/50% "european".

By the way Southern Italians match well Myceneans and Minoans who were two of the earliest civilizations in Europe. Imperial Romans as well. Sicilians have traces of Egyptian DNA, and well Ancient Egypt...

This "hate" and "butthurt" come people that think that being european = being scandinavian.

[Kamal900]

Neither me.



People don't understand that Druze/Lebanese are already 40/50% "european".

By the way Southern Italians match well Myceneans and Minoans who were two of the earliest civilizations in Europe. Imperial Romans as well. Sicilians have traces of Egyptian DNA, and well Ancient Egypt...

This "hate" and "butthurt" come people that think that being european = being scandinavian.

Well, yeah. I had showed you my genetic results putting me very close to Syrians and other Levantines. Nothing wrong with it really.

[Cristiano viejo]

True, I don't think it's a negative thing.

In Spain it is, same than being more closer to North Africa than to other European countries.
And given the seen, in Italy too.

Why? easy. Current Levantines (and NAs) are primitive, uncivilized and very poor people, plus brown. Their culture is alien for us. We see them as invaders and dont want to be related with them :noidea:

But you already knew all this.

[Kamal900]

In Spain it is, same than being more closer to North Africa than to other European countries.
And given the seen, in Italy too.

Why? easy. Current Levantines (and NAs) are primitive, uncivilized and very poor people, plus brown. Their culture is alien for us. We see them as invaders and dont want to be related with them :noidea:

But you already knew all this.

:rolleyes:

Who's "we" btw? We're talking about Southern Italians not Spaniards.

[Samnium]

In Spain it is, same than being more closer to North Africa than to other European countries.
And given the seen, in Italy too.

Why? easy. Current Levantines (and NAs) are primitive, uncivilized and very poor people, plus brown. Their culture is alien for us. We see them as invaders and dont want to be related with them :noidea:

But you already knew all this.

Levantines are usually different from Iraqis, Saudis...

Honestly I barely seen a news with a Lebanese killing someone even though there are plenty Lebanese people in France and I used to know some people that were from this diaspora. I say the same thing for Armenians. The two don't belong to Europe but you have to be honest.

NAs are by far more aggressive and dangerous.

It's true that Italians don't want to be associated with Levantines in general even though there some kind of "Med kinship" felt by many people.

[Smeagol]

In Spain it is, same than being more closer to North Africa than to other European countries.
And given the seen, in Italy too.

Why? easy. Current Levantines (and NAs) are primitive, uncivilized and very poor people, plus brown. Their culture is alien for us. We see them as invaders and dont want to be related with them :noidea:

But you already knew all this.

Well Spanish are very far from any MENA people genetically anyway.

[Cristiano viejo]

:rolleyes:

Who's "we" btw? We're talking about Southern Italians not Spaniards.
Any European.


Levantines are different from Iraqis, Saudis...

Honestly I barely seen a news with a Lebanese killing someone even though there are plent Lebanese people in France and I used to know some people that were from this diaspora.
Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Palestine are seen as terrorists, killers etc by regular people. They dont want to be near them, at least here. In Australia Lebanese are famous for being criminals, for example.
No comment about Syrians (rapefugees).
Palestinians are portrayed as absolute terrorists.

[Cristiano viejo]

Well Spanish are very far from any MENA people genetically anyway.

That is not thee point. I understand why Italians dont want to be related with Levantines, that is what I am saying.

[Kamal900]

Any European.


Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Palestine are seen as terrorists, killers etc by regular people. They dont want to be near them, at least here. In Australia Lebanese are famous for being criminals, for example.
No comment about Syrians (rapefugees).
Palestinians are portrayed as absolute terrorists.

Which includes Southern Italians? We're talking about genetics here, not politics. Yeah? I mean, Vox is very Zionist to the core, and they're very pro-US and Israel regardless of their party being portrayed as nationalists or whatever. Yeah, because the Lebanese in Australia are mostly Muslims from slums and etc in contrast to the Christians of the Americas who are doing pretty well for themselves.

[Samnium]

Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Palestine are seen as terrorists, killers etc by regular people. They dont want to be near them, at least here. In Australia Lebanese are famous for being criminals, for example.
No comment about Syrians (rapefugees).
Palestinians are portrayed as absolute terrorists.

Jordanians are more arabian than anything else honestly.


Lebanese are famous for having people that were intermediates between people for exchanging money, diamonds etc. (illegal of course) Lebanon is the Swiss of the Middle-East, financiary place.

Syrians can be pretty cancerous I agree, same as Palestinians, for sure I wouldn't accept many of them here (actually near 0). But they are still less harmful than NAs I would say.

[Kamal900]

Jordanians are more arabian than anything else honestly.


Lebanese are famous for having people that were intermediates between people for exchanging money, diamonds etc. Lebanon is the Swiss of the Middle-East, financiary place.

Syrians can be pretty cancerous I agree, same as Palestinians, for sure I wouldn't accept many of them here. But they are still less harmful than NAs I would say.

Jordanian bedouins are Arabians really. The rest are Levantines. Well, there aren't many Palestinians living in Europe, and the country that has the largest Palestinian diaspora outside the Arab world is Chile.

[Smeagol]

That is not thee point. I understand why Italians dont want to be related with Levantines, that is what I am saying.

I can understand, but Levantines in America are mostly Christian and don't have the same type of reputation here.

[Cristiano viejo]

Which includes Southern Italians? We're talking about genetics here, not politics. Yeah? I mean, Vox is very Zionist to the core, and they're very pro-US and Israel regardless of their party being portrayed as nationalists or whatever. Yeah, because the Lebanese in Australia are mostly Muslims from slums and etc in contrast to the Christians of the Americas who are doing pretty well for themselves.

Man, forget VOX...
levantines live to hundreds or thousands of kms of Europe. They have nothing to do with us, it is logical that (in this case) Italians dislike to be associated with someone with who dont share anything with them (except genetic, and I guess 99,99% of Italians dont know anything about this).
People only see:
Syrians: in war, rapefugees invading Europe.
Lebanese: Hezbollah.
Palestinians: Hamas.

and everybody thinking all of them are muslims.

What do you expect????

[Cristiano viejo]

Jordanians are more arabian than anything else honestly.


Lebanese are famous for having people that were intermediates between people for exchanging money, diamonds etc. (illegal of course) Lebanon is the Swiss of the Middle-East, financiary place.

Syrians can be pretty cancerous I agree, same as Palestinians, for sure I wouldn't accept many of them here (actually near 0). But they are still less harmful than NAs I would say.
99% of Europeans think all the Levantines are Muslims.

[Kamal900]

Man, forget VOX...
levantines live to hundreds or thousands of kms of Europe. They have nothing to do with us, it is logical that (in this case) Italians dislike to be associated with someone with who dont share anything with them (except genetic, and I guess 99,99% of Italians dont know anything about this).
People only see:
Syrians: in war, rapefugees invading Europe.
Lebanese: Hezbollah.
Palestinians: Hamas.

and everybody thinking all of them are muslims.

What do you expect????

That's not the point. We're talking about genetics here, not politics or their sense of affiliation with us and so on. I brought up Vox since it's the party that you voted for and so on, and really, how us Palestinians are portrayed really is due to the media and it's link to the government and politicians. The same with the US, though the average American is less cynical and more open minded than most Europeans really thanks to the internet and so on. Well, do you think Italians themselves are fond with all Europeans because of genetics? Come on. Most European peoples only care about their own respective nations, and rarely you find them having this sense of pan-Europeanism in real life. Same here too.

[Karol Klačansky]

Lol, you actually took the time to edit Jews out of the chart. Too close to Sicilians/South Italians for you?
https://i.imgur.com/ANILbO7.png

And anyway this chart just confirms what everyone else is saying. Nobody is claiming that south Italians cluster with Levantines, but as you can see from the plot you posted, they're closer to them than to most other Europeans.

Why are Cypriots green and considered middle eastern but European Jewish populations considered "European". Greek Cypriots belong to Europe culturally. Also there is nothing wrong at all with having a big east med influence. They are still genetically their own thing and quite distant to Levantines. Its just a bit mind blowing how east med they actually are. Also who ever on this thread claimed modern Italians are nothing like ancient Romans...youre an idiot. Modern Italians are direct descendants of Romans and have massive Roman ancestry of Romans from every time period. Also, it's no coincidence that North Italians and republic Roman's plot close together just that modern North Italians have more central European input than non imperial Roman's but that's about the only difference some retard on here claimed ancient Romans were more similar to Basques in reality. Well then why don't they plot close together?? Italian genetics are a perfect reflection of the history of the Roman empire and the totality of its history. They are Roman in every way.

[Kamal900]

Why are Cypriots green and considered middle eastern but European Jewish populations considered "European". Greek Cypriots belong to Europe culturally. Also there is nothing wrong at all with having a big east med influence. They are still genetically their own thing and quite distant to Levantines. Its just a bit mind blowing how east med they actually are. Also who ever on this thread claimed modern Italians are nothing like ancient Romans...youre an idiot. Modern Italians are direct descendants of Romans and have massive Roman ancestry of Romans from every time period. Also, it's no coincidence that North Italians and republic Roman's plot close together just that modern North Italians have more central European input than non imperial Roman's but that's about the only difference some retard on here claimed ancient Romans were more similar to Basques in reality. Well then why don't they plot close together?? Italian genetics are a perfect reflection of the history of the Roman empire and the totality of its history. They are Roman in every way.

They are, and we have genetic results of the ancient Romans confirming that their genetic affiliation to the MENA world isn't something that was very old but rather recent which started during the period of late republic/early empire of the Roman civilization. As far as Cypriots are concerned, they're genetically more closer to the Levant while Jews are more closer to Southern Italians and the Aegean Greek islanders which both groups are considered as outlying European groups genetically.
(Eurogenes K13 updated)
Distance to: Moody
4.29901151 Syrian
4.50604039 Lebanese_Muslim
5.53729176 Nusayri
7.69408214 Jordanian
9.23794349 Palestinian
10.09898015 Turk_Cypriot
11.03945651 Samaritan
11.04414324 Cyprian
11.04414324 Greek_Cypriot
11.72857621 Lebanese_Christian
11.76604437 Kurdish_Jewish
11.84487653 Lebanese_Druze
11.91170853 Iranian_Jewish
12.82243737 Greek_Cappadocian
12.99205526 Assyrian
13.47356300 Bedouin
13.72782940 Tunisian_Jewish
13.99333055 Libyan_Jewish
14.77822469 Greek_Dodecanese
15.84495188 Greek_Symi_Island
15.96328600 Greek_Chios
16.03095443 Sephardic_Jewish
16.06729909 Turkish_mixed
16.57383178 Armenian_West
16.69012283 Turk_Central_East

Ancient:
Target: Moody_scaled
Distance: 1.4252% / 0.01425223
71.6 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
19.4 TKM_IA
7.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
1.6 TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP

[Smeagol]

Why are Cypriots green and considered middle eastern but European Jewish populations considered "European". Greek Cypriots belong to Europe culturally. Also there is nothing wrong at all with having a big east med influence. They are still genetically their own thing and quite distant to Levantines. Its just a bit mind blowing how east med they actually are. Also who ever on this thread claimed modern Italians are nothing like ancient Romans...youre an idiot. Modern Italians are direct descendants of Romans and have massive Roman ancestry of Romans from every time period. Also, it's no coincidence that North Italians and republic Roman's plot close together just that modern North Italians have more central European input than non imperial Roman's but that's about the only difference some retard on here claimed ancient Romans were more similar to Basques in reality. Well then why don't they plot close together?? Italian genetics are a perfect reflection of the history of the Roman empire and the totality of its history. They are Roman in every way.

I never said it was a bad thing to have so much East med influence or that they weren't descended from Romans too.

[Karol Klačansky]

They are, and we have genetic results of the ancient Romans confirming that their genetic affiliation to the MENA world isn't something that was very old but rather recent which started during the period of late republic/early empire of the Roman civilization. As far as Cypriots are concerned, they're genetically more closer to the Levant while Jews are more closer to Southern Italians and the Aegean Greek islanders which both groups are considered as outlying European groups genetically.
(Eurogenes K13 updated)
Distance to: Moody
4.29901151 Syrian
4.50604039 Lebanese_Muslim
5.53729176 Nusayri
7.69408214 Jordanian
9.23794349 Palestinian
10.09898015 Turk_Cypriot
11.03945651 Samaritan
11.04414324 Cyprian
11.04414324 Greek_Cypriot
11.72857621 Lebanese_Christian
11.76604437 Kurdish_Jewish
11.84487653 Lebanese_Druze
11.91170853 Iranian_Jewish
12.82243737 Greek_Cappadocian
12.99205526 Assyrian
13.47356300 Bedouin
13.72782940 Tunisian_Jewish
13.99333055 Libyan_Jewish
14.77822469 Greek_Dodecanese
15.84495188 Greek_Symi_Island
15.96328600 Greek_Chios
16.03095443 Sephardic_Jewish
16.06729909 Turkish_mixed
16.57383178 Armenian_West
16.69012283 Turk_Central_East

Ancient:
Target: Moody_scaled
Distance: 1.4252% / 0.01425223
71.6 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
19.4 TKM_IA
7.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
1.6 TZA_Zanzibar_1300BP

Cypriots are obviously genetically more similar to Levantine people but Greek Cypriots are culturally connected to Europe even more so than many European Jewish populations in my opinion. They should be blue. Also, imperial Roman time is recent for you? Imperial Roman's were full fledged Roman's and Italians are obviously descended from them plus native Roman italic ancestry. Modern Italians are genetically very Roman as they represent Rome the entirity of Rome historically in their genetics. This makes them Roman in a way even Spaniards can't dream of. Also republican éra Roman's were don't cluster with Basques they cluster with North Italians and Spaniards. They just hide higher WHG ancestry like Spaniards compared to modern Noth Italians who have more step ancestry due to germanic invasions. However overall North Italians have massive italic republican Era type ancestry.

[MinervaItalica]

Exactly, yeah. Southern Italians are more closer to the Levant than to most European countries and peoples. I don't understand this..uh, the hate to be associated to the region really since the Levant is one of the earliest known civilizations which many of the oldest cities in the world are located in contrast to Northern and Eastern Europe.

The point is not about civilization (which Italy has nothing to envy from Levant) but simply Italians have nothing to do with ME both in genetics, phenotypes and especially culturally. No one IRL feel related to you and you will most likely get a punch in the face if you try to say to an Italian that he/she pass or is related to ME.

I think the feeling is pretty much mutual for Levantines IRL.

If you're proud of your so called civilization you should be happy of what you're without being obsessed to be related to Europeans.

[Kamal900]

The point is not about civilization (which Italy has nothing to envy from Levant) but simply Italians have nothing to do with ME both in genetics, phenotypes and especially culturally. No one irl feel related to you and you will most likely get a punch in the face if you try to say to an Italian that he/she pass or is related to ME.

That's not the point. Whether they feel related to me or not is irrelevant when it comes to genetics. Southern Italians are genetically very close to western Jewish peoples who are a mixture between European and Levantine. Whether you believe or not is irrelevant since people who have political biases don't care about things like truth or facts if it doesn't fit his/her dogma.

[Kamal900]

Cypriots are obviously genetically more similar to Levantine people but Greek Cypriots are culturally connected to Europe even more so than many European Jewish populations in my opinion. They should be blue. Also, imperial Roman time is recent for you? Imperial Roman's were full fledged Roman's and Italians are obviously descended from them plus native Roman italic ancestry. Modern Italians are genetically very Roman as they represent Rome the entirity of Rome historically in their genetics. This makes them Roman in a way even Spaniards can't dream of. Also republican éra Roman's were don't cluster with Basques they cluster with North Italians and Spaniards. They just hide higher WHG ancestry like Spaniards compared to modern Noth Italians who have more step ancestry due to germanic invasions. However overall North Italians have massive italic republican Era type ancestry.

*sigh* By recent I meant that the MENA ancestry came into the Italian genepool more recently than say from the neolithic or bronze age periods as previously thought.

[MinervaItalica]

That's not the point. Whether they feel related to me or not is irrelevant when it comes to genetics. Southern Italians are genetically very close to western Jewish peoples who are a mixture between European and Levantine. Whether you believe or not is irrelevant since people who have political biases don't care about things like truth or facts if it doesn't fit his/her dogma.

No there are no official worldwide shared and recognized sources that say that Italians (the ones who live in the South) are "closer" to ME (they are majority R1b). It's a bullshit spread on these anthrotard forums. Most important there are no official Italian sources.

[Kamal900]

No there are no official worldwide shared and recognized sources that say that Italians (the ones who live in the South) are "closer" to ME. It's a bullshit spread on these anthrotard forums. Most of all there are no Italian sources.

Whatever dude. If you don't like this idea then that's your right. I don't want to pick a fight with you on this.

[Smeagol]

No there are no official worldwide shared and recognized sources that say that Italians (the ones who live in the South) are "closer" to ME (they are majority R1b). It's a bullshit spread on these anthrotard forums. Most important there are no official Italian sources.

And the groups in Central Africa with a majority of R1b are closest to Western Europeans too.

[MinervaItalica]

Whatever dude. If you don't like this idea then that's your right. I don't want to pick a fight with you on this.

I need reliable sources both officially from my country studies and internationally shared not these random maps or scores you pick from the hell who knows where online (all manipulable) if you guys want to convince me, otherwise, like we say in Italy: it is all smoke and no roast (tutto fumo e niente arrosto).

[Kamal900]

I need reliable sources both officially from my country studies and internationally shared if you guys want to convince me, otherwise, like we say in Italy: it is all smoke and no roast (tutto fumo e niente arrosto).

Even If I did it wouldn't matter(I have several sources from last years and etc), and I really don't want to start a fight.

[Cristiano viejo]

That's not the point. We're talking about genetics here, not politics or their sense of affiliation with us and so on. .

I just pointed that most of people dont know about genetic. People in Europe feel European and dont see genetic conexion with foreigners, even if it exists.
Spaniards have a bit of NA blood but I can sure you 99% of Spaniards dont know about this and they dont feel any conexion with NAs, the contrary, most of Spaniards dislike them.
The same with the rest of Europeans (not sure really about Russians, Finns etc, maybe they do feel something about Asians but I doubt).

[Samnium]

No there are no official worldwide shared and recognized sources that say that Italians (the ones who live in the South) are "closer" to ME (they are majority R1b). It's a bullshit spread on these anthrotard forums. Most important there are no official Italian sources.

Southern Italians aren't in majority R1b, no way. Northern Italians reach as high as 55%, no more.

There are dozens of studies about genetics of Southern Italians, of course international studies are not that well because you can't see the regional substructure and diversity of Southern Italy (averages are a mix of lot of different people).

[MinervaItalica]

Southern Italians aren't in majority R1b, no way.

It's useless we can go on for days about this shit. You foreigners keep thinking whatever makes you sleep well. I'm off from this thread.

[Jana]

Southern Italians are mostly J2a, as far as I know. It's Greco-Roman clades though, nothing to do with Levant.

[Rocinante]

No there are no official worldwide shared and recognized sources that say that Italians (the ones who live in the South) are "closer" to ME (they are majority R1b). It's a bullshit spread on these anthrotard forums. Most important there are no official Italian sources.

Southern italians aren't in majority R1b, not even centrals, but they are in majority european per se haplogroups (R1b, R1a, J2, I2, I1, EV-13 and G). You don't have to lie to defend the europeaness of southern italians, just use the real facts to fight against anti-southerneuros trolls.

[MinervaItalica]

Here pagliacci. R1b is the major compared to the others. Even a random map took online claim that. I don't even need to use my sources.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/d/da/R1bItalia.png

[Samnium]

It's useless we can go on for days about this shit. You foreigners keep thinking whatever makes you sleep well. I'm off from this thread.

Well I'm not saying that to troll Southern Italians or whatever, I'm myself half Southern Italian and I've been the first to reply to Savvas and other trolls like Cumansky.

[Scipio Africanus]

Lol, you actually took the time to edit Jews out of the chart. Too close to Sicilians/South Italians for you?

I didn't edit it, but I chose it, because Askenazi and Sephardity jewish were almost a semi-nomadic population. They have abandoned their native land, the Middle East, and have lived and mix for centuries in Southern Europe in Central and Eastern Europe.

[Rocinante]

Here pagliacci. R1b is the major compared to the others. Even a random map took online claim that. I don't even need to use my sources.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/d/da/R1bItalia.png

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

There you go, this proof that southern italians are mainly of european ancestry. I'm a 1/4 southern italian and it's a R1b line too.

[MinervaItalica]

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

There you go, this proof that southern italians are mainly of european ancestry. I'm a 1/4 southern italian and it's a R1b line too.

I don't want to see Eupedia. It gives me nerves.

[Karol Klačansky]

I need reliable sources both officially from my country studies and internationally shared not these random maps or scores you pick from the hell who knows where online (all manipulable) if you guys want to convince me, otherwise, like we say in Italy: it is all smoke and no roast (tutto fumo e niente arrosto).

bro I shared a peer reviewed study with you from 2019 stating southern italians are geneticaly closer to the levant than to the rest of europe (besides greeks)

[Rocinante]

I don't want to see Eupedia. It gives me nerves.

Dude, compared to that nasty wikipedia map you shared... I think it's better Eupedia.

[Karol Klačansky]

can someone share some southern italian eurogenes k13 and k15 oracles?

[Rocinante]

can someone share some southern italian eurogenes k13 and k15 oracles?

Better using G25, this a calabrian example:

Italian:Italian_Calabria,0.1028203,0.1462363,-0.011942,-0.0466197,0.0125147,-0.0117133,-0.0024283,-0.0031537,0.0044993,0.0215037,0.000433,0.0027977,-0.0055003,-0.000963,-0.009636,-0.0052593,0.0068237,0.0009713,0.0051537,-0.003043,-0.0026203,-0.0023907,-0.0001643,0.0037753,0.00012

K50:
Target: Italian:Italian_Calabria
Distance: 1.3525% / 0.01352457
47.4 European_Jewish
39.8 Greek_Albanian
8.8 Armenian_Assyrian
2.6 Iberian
1.4 Abkhasian_Georgian

World25 Nicola:

Target: Italian:Italian_Calabria
Distance: 1.4353% / 0.01435256
38.4 SoutheastEuropean
33.8 SouthEuropean
24.8 Levantine
3.0 NorthAfricanBerberWest

K11 10 kybp WHG-EHG:

Target: Italian:Italian_Calabria
Distance: 3.0174% / 0.03017385
56.2 ENF=Anatolia_Barcin_N
21.4 CHG=GEO_CHG
11.8 EHG=RUS_Karelia_HG
10.4 Natufian=Levant_Natufian
0.2 SSA=Yoruba

[Rocinante]

He's a rat lurking on Quora.

What is his username in Quora? I want to laugh a bit.

I feel so sorry for him, but this flag is sacred from Lombardia to Sicilia.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c1/43/ee/c143ee39bf902e66490f789f9767b0f6.jpg

[MinervaItalica]

What is his username in Quora? I want to laugh a bit.

I feel so sorry for him, but this flag is sacred from Lombardia to Sicilia.

Dante Sabatino but most likely he's not even fully Italian.

[savvas]

Are you Padanian or anti-south?

Both obviously:

https://i.imgur.com/vRV4CCa.jpg

[Samnium]

What is his username in Quora? I want to laugh a bit.

I feel so sorry for him, but this flag is sacred from Lombardia to Sicilia.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c1/43/ee/c143ee39bf902e66490f789f9767b0f6.jpg

https://www.quora.com/What-are-Itali...-of-explaining (https://www.quora.com/What-are-Italians-tired-of-explaining)
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-find-m...-John-Turturro (https://www.quora.com/Can-you-find-many-Italians-that-look-Tunisian-like-John-Turturro)
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Italian...ern-than-Turks (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Italians-look-more-Asian-and-Middle-Eastern-than-Turks)
https://www.quora.com/Which-European...-lightest-skin (https://www.quora.com/Which-Europeans-have-the-Darkest-skin-and-the-lightest-skin)
https://www.quora.com/Which-European...-lightest-skin (https://www.quora.com/Which-Europeans-have-the-Darkest-skin-and-the-lightest-skin)
https://www.quora.com/What-facial-fe...Italian-person (https://www.quora.com/What-facial-features-are-different-between-a-Greek-person-and-an-Italian-person)
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-south-...eyre-in-Europe (https://www.quora.com/Why-are-south-Europeans-not-including-Italians-considered-white-when-most-of-them-have-dark-features-and-look-much-different-from-typical-white-people-just-because-theyre-in-Europe)
https://www.quora.com/What-facial-fe...Italian-person (https://www.quora.com/What-facial-features-are-different-between-a-Greek-person-and-an-Italian-person)
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-tha...tral-Europeans (https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-you-can-t-distinguish-Northern-Central-Italians-from-French-and-other-Central-Europeans)
https://www.quora.com/Do-Italians-Gr...have-big-noses (https://www.quora.com/Do-Italians-Greeks-and-Arabs-have-big-noses)
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Holly...los-barbarians (https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Hollywood-place-British-actors-as-Greeks-and-Romans-being-that-real-Greeks-and-Romans-were-Mediterranean-and-considered-Anglos-barbarians)

[savvas]

What is his username in Quora? I want to laugh a bit.

I feel so sorry for him, but this flag is sacred from Lombardia to Sicilia.


I'm not that terrone, don't listen to these schizos. Anyway fell free to annex Sicily and Naples to Spain if you like them that much.
The result will be pic related plus a bill of 100 billion euros per year to pay in gibsmethat. Good luck:

https://i.imgur.com/JG67o3K.png

[Rocinante]

Both obviously:

https://i.imgur.com/vRV4CCa.jpg

Well, if spaniards have their retard member in this forum, italians must had one too i guess.


https://www.quora.com/What-are-Itali...-of-explaining (https://www.quora.com/What-are-Italians-tired-of-explaining)
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-find-m...-John-Turturro (https://www.quora.com/Can-you-find-many-Italians-that-look-Tunisian-like-John-Turturro)
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Italian...ern-than-Turks (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Italians-look-more-Asian-and-Middle-Eastern-than-Turks)
https://www.quora.com/Which-European...-lightest-skin (https://www.quora.com/Which-Europeans-have-the-Darkest-skin-and-the-lightest-skin)
https://www.quora.com/Which-European...-lightest-skin (https://www.quora.com/Which-Europeans-have-the-Darkest-skin-and-the-lightest-skin)
https://www.quora.com/What-facial-fe...Italian-person (https://www.quora.com/What-facial-features-are-different-between-a-Greek-person-and-an-Italian-person)
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-south-...eyre-in-Europe (https://www.quora.com/Why-are-south-Europeans-not-including-Italians-considered-white-when-most-of-them-have-dark-features-and-look-much-different-from-typical-white-people-just-because-theyre-in-Europe)
https://www.quora.com/What-facial-fe...Italian-person (https://www.quora.com/What-facial-features-are-different-between-a-Greek-person-and-an-Italian-person)
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-tha...tral-Europeans (https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-you-can-t-distinguish-Northern-Central-Italians-from-French-and-other-Central-Europeans)
https://www.quora.com/Do-Italians-Gr...have-big-noses (https://www.quora.com/Do-Italians-Greeks-and-Arabs-have-big-noses)
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Holly...los-barbarians (https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Hollywood-place-British-actors-as-Greeks-and-Romans-being-that-real-Greeks-and-Romans-were-Mediterranean-and-considered-Anglos-barbarians)

LOL...

[MinervaItalica]

Well, if spaniards have their retard member in this forum, italians must had one too i guess.

Unfortunately, we have two, the other is renaissance12. Sane Italians members are all gone since years.

[Leto]

Why divide Italy in 2020? I mean the country was unified like 160 years ago and I don't think any separation is likely to take place in the near future either.

[Rocinante]

I'm not that terrone, don't listen to these schizos. Anyway fell free to annex Sicily and Naples to Spain if you like them that much.
The result will be pic related plus a bill of 100 billion euros per year to pay in gibsmethat. Good luck:

https://i.imgur.com/JG67o3K.png

I can't make decisions in the name of Spain, also, i'm 1/4 southern italian, and i'm proud of it, Italy is a country that has to be admired from north to south, like Spain. Don't you think italians must be together in their problems? There is a lot of southerns italians working in Milan, Turin, Genova, Veneto, and other northern cities and towns making their good places, thanks for their work along with native northeners. Is like andalusians in Barcelona, making that city great caused of their work.

[MinervaItalica]

Why divide Italy in 2020? I mean the country was unified like 160 years ago and I don't think any separation is likely to take place in the near future either.

In fact only a mentally retarded would want that.

[Gaska]

I'm not that terrone, don't listen to these schizos. Anyway fell free to annex Sicily and Naples to Spain if you like them that much.
The result will be pic related plus a bill of 100 billion euros per year to pay in gibsmethat. Good luck:

https://i.imgur.com/JG67o3K.png


No one defends the Neapolitans and Sicilians? I've always found them nice and friendly. Genetics doesn't matter, I prefer the Calabrians to the English

[Rocinante]

Unfortunately, we have two, the other is renaissance12. Sane Italians members are all gone since years.

Well, i hate padanism, for real. I can't make decisions for italians, but i feel close to your people and the Old Country must not be divided by nordicist retards.

Is there any thread of "ask italians something"? I want to ask somethings.

[Rocinante]

Unfortunately, we have two, the other is renaissance12. Sane Italians members are all gone since years.

Well, i hate padanism, for real. I can't make decisions for italians, but i feel close to your people and the Old Country must not be divided by nordicist retards.

Is there any thread of "ask italians something"? I want to ask somethings.

[savvas]

Why divide Italy in 2020? I mean the country was unified like 160 years ago and I don't think any separation is likely to take place in the near future either.

Why on earth shall we be bound to an ethnicity that represents the exact opposite of what we are? Is it a sort of biblical plague or something? Is there really nothing we can do other than waiting to be completely replaced by this scourge of a people and the other invaders that they keep throwing into our land?

The hell with this Siculo-N*apolitan 'italy'.

https://i.imgur.com/oOmP8Yu.jpg

[MinervaItalica]

Well, i hate padanism, for real. I can't make decisions for italians, but i feel close to your people and the Old Country must not be divided by nordicist retards.

"Padanism" is most likely dead by now. Even the League now has bases in the South and become a national party.


Is there any thread of "ask italians something"? I want to ask somethings.

No but you can use this thread https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?192887-Foro-Italico

However there are not active Italians left on this forum except me or Scipio Africanus.

EDIT: actually there is one: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?257129-quot-Ask-italian-users-stuff-about-Italy-and-Italians-quot-thread

[Rocinante]

"Padanism" is most likely dead by now. Even the League now has bases in the South and become a national party.



No but you can use this thread https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?192887-Foro-Italico

However there are not active Italians left on this forum except me or Scipio Africanus.

Grazie.

I'm going to ask some questions to all active italians.

[Dorian]

Why the fuck give Magna Graecia to Spain?If you don't want them ,we'd gladly unite..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVC-XVdTPlI

[Adamastor]

The true immortal flag in Italy:

https://previews.123rf.com/images/dique/dique1612/dique161202206/66778175-flag-of-venice-is-a-city-in-northeastern-italy-and-the-capital-of-the-veneto-region-3d-illustration.jpg

Italian state is less than 200 years old, La Serenissima endured for 1000 years.

[MinervaItalica]

Italian state is less than 200 years old

The modern yes but not if we count the Medieval kingdom. Most modern states in EU are recent.

[Samnium]

No one defends the Neapolitans and Sicilians? I've always found them nice and friendly. Genetics doesn't matter, I prefer the Calabrians to the English

Sicilian are good people, traditionalists and welcoming.

Calabrians as well but they are a bit less "extraverted".

[Samnium]

The true immortal flag in Italy:

https://previews.123rf.com/images/dique/dique1612/dique161202206/66778175-flag-of-venice-is-a-city-in-northeastern-italy-and-the-capital-of-the-veneto-region-3d-illustration.jpg

Italian state is less than 200 years old, La Serenissima endured for 1000 years.

Why not then the flag of Papal States that encompassed most of actual Central Italy.

[Gaska]

Why the fuck give Magna Graecia to Spain?If you don't want them ,we'd gladly unite..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVC-XVdTPlI


They didn't give it to us. We had to kill thousands of French to keep southern Italy.
We also took a walk through Greece and controlled the Duchy of Athens

[Dorian]

They didn't give it to us. We had to kill thousands of French to keep southern Italy.
We also took a walk through Greece and controlled the Duchy of Athens

Calm your tits controller ,I'm referring to savva's comment "Anyway fell free to annex Sicily and Naples to Spain if you like them that much."
Do I need to explain why "Magna Graecia" united with Greece makes more sense?

[Leto]

A stereotypical Southern Italian is played by French Jewish actor Dany Brillant

https://youtu.be/NOzZ1zBBw2A

[MinervaItalica]

They didn't give it to us. We had to kill thousands of French to keep southern Italy.

Tbh Sicilians killed them only to end up to another foreigner rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Vespers

[Samnium]

A stereotypical Southern Italian is played by French Jewish actor Dany Brillant

https://youtu.be/NOzZ1zBBw2A

Yes I had heard this video before.

Brillant sings well.

[Gaska]

Calm your tits controller ,I'm referring to savva's comment "Anyway fell free to annex Sicily and Naples to Spain if you like them that much."
Do I need to explain why "Magna Graecia" united with Greece makes more sense?

No, it is evident that genetically they are very similar to you, which I cannot explain because Sicily was linked to the Spanish Monarchy hundreds of years. A Sicilian friend has told me that there are still 17,000 people in Sicily with Spanish surnames, but it certainly wasn't a colonization like the Greek. The Sicilians as well as the Sardinians gave great moments of glory to the Spanish Empire, they were good at killing heretics in Flanders-The "Tercio Viejo of Sicily" (1,534) still exists in our army. If Northern Italians no longer want to be with them, it seems good to me that the Sicilians will be Spanish again (if they want to)

[Gaska]

Tbh Sicilians killed them only to end up to another foreigner rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Vespers


foreign government? Sicilians have been Spanish for 600 years and Italians 150

[Dorian]

If Northern Italians no longer want to be with them, it seems good to me that the Sicilians will be Spanish again (if they want to)

Whatever they "want" then...
I think it's a sure thing that they feel closer to Greece but they could choose Spain for economy&being closer to the west.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts0cZxPcpKE

[catgeorge]

Our Hellenic bros


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI54dg9vL4c

[Kamal900]

I just pointed that most of people dont know about genetic. People in Europe feel European and dont see genetic conexion with foreigners, even if it exists.
Spaniards have a bit of NA blood but I can sure you 99% of Spaniards dont know about this and they dont feel any conexion with NAs, the contrary, most of Spaniards dislike them.
The same with the rest of Europeans (not sure really about Russians, Finns etc, maybe they do feel something about Asians but I doubt).

It's irrelevant to the topic that we were discussing and all that. Whether Minerva likes it or not, Southern Italians are genetically far more closer to western Jewish peoples than to 95% to other Europeans which includes Spaniards. Yes, we already had pointed it out that the Berber ancestry for most Iberians goes between 4 to 9% while the Basques pretty much don't have any.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, we already had pointed it out that the Berber ancestry for most Iberians goes between 4 to 9% while the Basques pretty much don't have any.

It is not Berber but much ancient, as proven. 4000 years ago populations around current Córdoba in Andalusia already presented North African genes, as this study said recently, and discarded any relation with the Muslim presence in Iberia
https://noticiasdelaciencia.com/art/31742/los-cordobeses-de-hace-4000-anos-tenian-genes-africanos

4 to 9% is pure bullshit. Still I am waiting some post a single Spanish dna test with these figures. Recently some Spaniards have posted here their results. You can check it.

[Kamal900]

It is not Berber but much ancient, as proven. 4000 years ago populations around current Córdoba in Andalusia already presented North African genes, as this study said recently, and discarded any relation with the Muslim presence in Iberia
https://noticiasdelaciencia.com/art/31742/los-cordobeses-de-hace-4000-anos-tenian-genes-africanos

4 to 9% is pure bullshit. Still I am waiting some post a single Spanish dna test with these figures. Recently some Spaniards have posted here their results. You can check it.

I have, and there are those who posted G25 results which shows that they have around 4% genetic affinity to modern day Berbers and around 8% to the ancient Guanches. You can experiment with the G25 spreadsheets and see for yourself. When did this genetic admixture came to Iberians is irrelevant really since neither the Spaniards nor the Berbers had existed at that time.

[Cristiano viejo]

I have, and there are those who posted G25 results which shows that they have around 4% genetic affinity to modern day Berbers and around 8% to the ancient Guanches. You can experiment with the G25 spreadsheets and see for yourself. When did this genetic admixture came to Iberians is irrelevant really since neither the Spaniards nor the Berbers had existed at that time.
Whatever makes you happy.

[Kamal900]

Whatever makes you happy.

Same for you too :)

[Adamastor]

I have, and there are those who posted G25 results which shows that they have around 4% genetic affinity to modern day Berbers and around 8% to the ancient Guanches. You can experiment with the G25 spreadsheets and see for yourself. When did this genetic admixture came to Iberians is irrelevant really since neither the Spaniards nor the Berbers had existed at that time.

Guanches were the same as modern northern Berbers and not all Spanish have more than 5% NA. Only Galicians, Asturians, West Andalusians, Castillans. West Iberians basically (the only exception is Murcia, with ~7%). Catalonians, Aragonese, Cantabrians have less than 5%.

[Cristiano viejo]

Guanches were the same as modern northern Berbers
Guanches were not 20% SSA.

[Kamal900]

Guanches were the same as modern northern Berbers and not all Spanish have more than 5% NA. Only Galicians, Asturians, West Andalusians, Castillans. West Iberians basically (the only exception is Murcia, with ~7%). Catalonians, Aragonese, Cantabrians have less than 5%.

Indeed, yeah. Christiano refuses to acknowledge that though.

[Kamal900]

Guanches were not 20% SSA.

Northern Moroccans are less than 8% SSA, and they're the people that the Guanches cluster the closest to.

[Samnium]

On T-SNE charts, every italian is closer to any other italian(from south to north). That means that italians are all tied together despite having very sharp variations in ancestry.

[Adamastor]

Guanches were not 20% SSA.

North Africans are not really 20% SSA, these GEDmatch calculators are seriously outdated. Guanche samples there also score 20% SSA, but now we know they are not due to better calculators and academic studies.

[Cristiano viejo]

Northern Moroccans are less than 8% SSA, and they're the people that the Guanches cluster the closest to.

I dont care if Guanches cluster with them, that does not mean anything for me. Spaniards cluster with French, so what? means nothing.

8%. No problem. Guanches were not 8% neither.

[MinervaItalica]

foreign government? Sicilians have been Spanish for 600 years and Italians 150

Why not 1000? :picard1:

Dude Spanish direct rule in Sicily started somewhat around 1500 until early 1700 not exactly 600 years...

During late middle ages it was ruled indipentently by Aragonese when "Spain" didn't exist yet. Kingdom of Sicily is older than Spain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon#Composition

[Kamal900]

I dont care if Guanches cluster with them, that does not mean anything for me. Spaniards cluster with French, so what? means nothing.

8%. No problem. Guanches were not 8% neither.

Lol, Gedmatch is seriously outdated. The SSA admixture is less than 8% for both Northern Moroccans and Guanches, and the latter cluster the closest to the former. Well, since you're not least knowledgeable on genetics it's pretty obvious that you don't care about these important things since the French don't have any NA admixture in contrast to most Iberians who do.

[Cristiano viejo]

Why not 1000? :picard1:

Dude Spanish direct rule in Sicily started somewhat around 1500 until early 1700 not exactly 600 years...

During late middle ages it was ruled indipentently by Aragonese rulers when "Spain" didn't exist yet. Kingdom of Sicily is older than Spain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon#Composition
Last time I looked for, Aragonese were still Spaniards.
Sicily started to be ruled by Spain in 1282 (oh, wait, that we were being ruled by Moors :rolleyes:).

[marco]

Lol, Gedmatch is seriously outdated. The SSA admixture is less than 8% for both Northern Moroccans and Guanches, and the latter cluster the closest to the former. Well, since you're not least knowledgeable on genetics it's pretty obvious that you don't care about these important things since the French don't have any NA admixture in contrast to most Iberians who do.
South Moroccan Berbers are pure and score less 3 percent ssa if even that some score 0 percent and they score higher iberomaurusian then gaunches and north Moroccans. No levant component either

[Cristiano viejo]

Lol, Gedmatch is seriously outdated. The SSA admixture is less than 8% for both Northern Moroccans and Guanches, and the latter cluster the closest to the former. Well, since you're not least knowledgeable on genetics it's pretty obvious that you don't care about these important things since the French don't have any NA admixture in contrast to most Iberians who do.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?270173-French-Bretons-on-Gedmatch

[marco]

West Iberians can score up to 20 percent North African it depends on what area you’re talking about. Is not important anyway Spain is Spain and North Africa is North Africa

[MinervaItalica]

Last time I looked for, Aragonese were still Spaniards.
Sicily started to be ruled by Spain in 1282 (oh, wait, that we were being ruled by Moors :rolleyes:).

Kingdom of Aragon wasnt "Spain" though. No read again it says ruled indipendently by cadet branch, it is different from direct rule also because Spain didn't exist as a nation when you were still under moors rule. The Aragonese in Sicily formed a own branch.

[Kamal900]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?270173-French-Bretons-on-Gedmatch

Uh, what does that prove exactly? The spreadsheets that are used in most Gedmatch calculators are outdated, and only some got updated like Eurogenes K13.

[Cristiano viejo]

Kingdom of Aragon wasnt "Spain" though. No read again it says ruled indipendently, it is different from direct rule also because Spain didn't exist as a nation when you were still under moors rule.

Nomenclature is your excuse?

[Cristiano viejo]

Uh, what does that prove exactly? The spreadsheets that are used in most Gedmatch calculators are outdated, and only some got updated like Eurogenes K13.

It proves that French also score NA admixture, of course.

[Kamal900]

It proves that French also score NA admixture, of course.

Exactly that. It's better to use the recently updated gedmatch calculators like K13 and so on, or using the G25 spreadsheets instead.

[Cristiano viejo]

Exactly that. It's better to use the recently updated gedmatch calculators like K13 and so on, or using the G25 spreadsheets instead.
In any Eurogenes table they have posted about all the Euro (and non Euro) populations, France and many more European countries (Italy and even UK and Germany) scored a bit of NA admixture.

[Kamal900]

In any Eurogenes table they have posted about all the Euro (and non Euro) populations, France and many more European countries (Italy and even UK and Germany) scored a bit of NA admixture.

A bit is mostly likely noise, not that is in significant numbers like in the case with Iberians. Seriously, just experiments with G25 spreadsheets.

[Cristiano viejo]

A bit is mostly likely noise, not that is in significant numbers like in the case with Iberians. Seriously, just experiments with G25 spreadsheets.

Noise... of course, of course :rolleyes:

[Rocinante]

Northern Moroccans are less than 8% SSA, and they're the people that the Guanches cluster the closest to.

True, even less than 8% SSA, this because canarians doesn't score SSA actually, i did a thread of this yesterday.

[Rocinante]

North Africans are not really 20% SSA, these GEDmatch calculators are seriously outdated. Guanche samples there also score 20% SSA, but now we know they are not due to better calculators and academic studies.

Target: Northeast_African
Distance: 0.7164% / 0.00716383
45.4 Levant
24.8 Yemenite_Arab
17.8 Northwest_African
9.8 Amharic
1.8 West_African
0.2 Amerindian
0.2 Uralic

(Without Northwest_African)
Target: Northeast_African
Distance: 1.4687% / 0.01468664
33.2 Yemenite_Arab
32.2 European_Jewish
17.6 Levant
12.8 Amharic
4.0 West_African
0.2 Eskimo

Target: Northwest_African
Distance: 8.1322% / 0.08132213
50.6 Northeast_African
23.6 Iberian
17.4 Amharic
8.4 West_African

(Without Northeast_African)
Target: Northwest_African
Distance: 8.4736% / 0.08473576
26.4 Amharic
24.4 European_Jewish
24.0 Iberian
15.6 Yemenite_Arab
9.6 West_African

[Karol Klačansky]

West Iberians can score up to 20 percent North African it depends on what area you’re talking about. Is not important anyway Spain is Spain and North Africa is North Africa

West Iberian can be up to 20 percent north African?? Can you share an Iberian with such results and what does this guy look like?

[Gaska]

West Iberian can be up to 20 percent north African?? Can you share an Iberian with such results and what does this guy look like?


Don't listen to them, just try to provoke

[Rocinante]

West Iberians can score up to 20 percent North African it depends on what area you’re talking about. Is not important anyway Spain is Spain and North Africa is North Africa

Show me a peninsular iberian that scores that, you are saying things just for trolling. Excluding canarians, the only result i ever saw with a "considerable amount" of NA was a portuguese with 12% NA. 20% must mean recent ancestry for sure.

[Adamm]

Lol, Gedmatch is seriously outdated. The SSA admixture is less than 8% for both Northern Moroccans and Guanches, and the latter cluster the closest to the former. Well, since you're not least knowledgeable on genetics it's pretty obvious that you don't care about these important things since the French don't have any NA admixture in contrast to most Iberians who do.

I compared myself with Guanches, some have more SSA than me.

https://i.imgur.com/qvoWLGW.png

[Duffmannn]

It's off-topic question.
Did French (especially Occitan and Arpitan) people settle in Italy (as in Spain)? Which books or articles do you advise? I found information only about Provencal settlement in Lucera but user Peyrol wrote about Burgundians in Piedmont and Savoyards in Apulia.

In Spain was very common, all the Santiago´s way during the Central Middle Ages (1000-1200) was a route for the colonization of "francos" (thus, french), as the Reconquista went further south and people was needed. Due to this romanic and gothic was introduced all along the north of Spain and Castille.

Basically all the villages called "Villafranca..." mean "French village". For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villafranca_del_Bierzo

Catalonia was largely repopulated by occitans too, here there´s even a overlap in surnames, between catalonian-occitanian ones. In fact catalonian lenguage is a dialect of the occitanian macrolenguage. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Bec_supradialectal.jpg

In the XVI-XVII there was a big migration to Aragón and mainly Zaragoza, 1/3 of the city population was of occitanian extraction (and paradoxically was largelly massacred during the french military sieges during Independance War of 1808-1809)

Until the 1920´s gascon dialect (another dialect of the occitanian macrolanguage) was still spoken on San Sebastian.

Then since the end of the IWW the population change was the opposite, France needed young men to substitute the deaths of the war, and many spaniards migrated there. Nowadays spanish surnames are common there.

There has been large cultural and genetic interchange between both parts of the Pyrinees since a long time (there are bullfights in southern France, for example), I could informate about this even better, there´s much information, but it´s mainly in spanish and french, I don´t know if you could understand it.

[Dimitri159]

Random genetic studies online are bullshits. It's still seems hard for people here to realize it. I would trust original sources from my country studies only.

Could you show some?

[Karol Klačansky]

I just pointed that most of people dont know about genetic. People in Europe feel European and dont see genetic conexion with foreigners, even if it exists.
Spaniards have a bit of NA blood but I can sure you 99% of Spaniards dont know about this and they dont feel any conexion with NAs, the contrary, most of Spaniards dislike them.
The same with the rest of Europeans (not sure really about Russians, Finns etc, maybe they do feel something about Asians but I doubt).

Im my opinion most spaniards that ive met overestimate their connection to north africa. Ive met plenty of spaniards who say we are a mix between europeans and arabs and im like yea thats totally inaccurate.

[Cristiano viejo]

Im my opinion most spaniards that ive met overestimate their connection to north africa. Ive met plenty of spaniards who say we are a mix between europeans and arabs and im like yea thats totally inaccurate.

Arabs are not not even from North Africa.

I barely have seen a Spaniard saying such thing, a random Andalusian lefty politician aside.

[Karol Klačansky]

Arabs are not not even from North Africa.

I barely have seen a Spaniard saying such thing, a random Andalusian lefty politician aside.

Of course they aren’t and it’s total BS. Every time I’ve spoken to a Spaniard about genetics though here in Vienna every single one of them believed they had a lot of moorish blood and many of them were kind of proud of that.

[Cristiano viejo]

Of course they aren’t and it’s total BS. Every time I’ve spoken to a Spaniard about genetics though here in Vienna every single one of them believed they had a lot of moorish blood and many of them were kind of proud of that.

:lol: ok.

[Kenshiro]

Southern Italians are around 25/30% R1B whereas Northern Italy can reach up to 55%/60% and Central Italy is generally an intermediate.

After R1b, there is a prevalence of J1 (Arabian origin), J2 (Caucasus), E (related to North-Africans but that came originally from East Africa) and also G haplogroups (Caucasus as well). There are areas that have much more elevated R1B and particuliarly Italo-Celtic Y-DNA (like Cosenza in Calabria, where settled Bruttians that were a mix of Italic tribes).



Abruzzo is genetically Southern Italian, there are Molisans/Apulians/Sicilians that cluster above the Abruzzo averages. Molise is much more Central Italian shifted and closer to Lazio/Marche people.

i think J1 is of neolithic origin, i myself am J1 and i am 0% red sea which makes a truly semitic origin almost impossible in my case, what really matters is autosomal