Turkish+Finnish ancestry results

[Kuningaz]

Hi I'm half Turkish, half Finnish and would like to share my ancestry reports with you:

23andme

95671

Mytrueancestry:

Ancient populations

Scythian + Hungarian Conqueror (10.86)
Scythian + Thuringii (11.64)

Closest archeogenetic match:

1. Visigoth Mixed Slav Girona (550 AD) ..... 9.045 -
Top 98 % match vs all users

Closest modern population:

1. Serbian (7.547)

PCA plot:

95669

Please comment!

[Leto]

Hi,

Are you from Izmir with a Cretan grandfather? I saw that a few years ago on another forum.

[dududud]

Interesting.

[Lemminkäinen]

23andme doesn't work well because it is targeted to US markets.

[Kaspias]

Welcome. Can you post your gedmatch results as well?

[Salonikios]

Gedmatch Eurogenes k13 and k15 would be better. But I can say that your Turkish part had some European ancestry.

[Jana]

Is your Turkish side Balkan Turk?

[Leto]

Please post your HarappaWorld.

[Kuningaz]

Eurogenes K13

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 29.71
2 North_Atlantic 24.04
3 East_Med 14.79
4 West_Asian 11.78
5 West_Med 8.83
6 Siberian 3.70
7 Red_Sea 3.22
8 Amerindian 1.69
9 South_Asian 1.19

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Serbian @ 9.153234

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Erzya +50% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.265337

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Finnish +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Romanian @ 1.559521

Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Finnish + Finnish + Kurdish_Jewish + Romanian @ 1.559521

K15:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 17.52
2 Atlantic 15.78
3 Eastern_Euro 14.26
4 Baltic 13.81
5 East_Med 11.63
6 West_Asian 11.53
7 West_Med 6.47
8 Siberian 3.08
9 Red_Sea 2.81
10 Amerindian 1.54

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Serbian @ 7.540800

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Finnish +50% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.031816

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Austrian +25% East_Finnish +25% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.796643

Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Assyrian + Estonian_Polish + Southeast_English + Tatar @ 2.154504

[Kuningaz]

Is your Turkish side Balkan Turk?

Yes grandparents from Crete and Thessaloniki.

[Leto]

Eurogenes K13

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 29.71
2 North_Atlantic 24.04
3 East_Med 14.79
4 West_Asian 11.78
5 West_Med 8.83
6 Siberian 3.70
7 Red_Sea 3.22
8 Amerindian 1.69
9 South_Asian 1.19

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Serbian @ 9.153234

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Erzya +50% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.265337

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Finnish +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Romanian @ 1.559521

Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Finnish + Finnish + Kurdish_Jewish + Romanian @ 1.559521

K15:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 17.52
2 Atlantic 15.78
3 Eastern_Euro 14.26
4 Baltic 13.81
5 East_Med 11.63
6 West_Asian 11.53
7 West_Med 6.47
8 Siberian 3.08
9 Red_Sea 2.81
10 Amerindian 1.54

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Serbian @ 7.540800

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Finnish +50% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.031816

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Austrian +25% East_Finnish +25% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.796643

Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Assyrian + Estonian_Polish + Southeast_English + Tatar @ 2.154504
Please please use the normal oracle (mixed mode). That one cuts off everything below 1% which I dislike.

[Salonikios]

Yes grandparents from Crete and Thessaloniki.

Do you know exact place in Thessaloniki? Because Thessaloniki is big place. City center, or from village if it is not too personal.

[Leto]

Do you know exact place in Thessaloniki? Because Thessaloniki is big place. City center, or from village if it is not too personal.
You gotta be Turkish. Why are you larping as Russian? I've noticed you always ask questions about Turkey and likewise respond to comments on Turkey.

[Salonikios]

You gotta be Turkish. Why are you larping as Russian? I've noticed you always ask questions about Turkey and likewise responds to comments on Turkey.

Yes from Thessaloniki. Not hard to understand.

[Leto]

Yes from Thessaloniki. Not hard to understand.
Please remove the misleading information. People will attack Russians thinking you are one when in fact you aren't.

[Kamal900]

Yes from Thessaloniki. Not hard to understand.

You're not an ethnic Russian? You really need to change your profile info.

[Leto]

You're not an ethnic Russian? You really need to change your profile info.
He is Turkish.

[Kamal900]

He is Turkish.

Which is even more fucked considering the relationship between Turkey and Russia in recent times.

[Leto]

Which is even more fucked considering the relationship between Turkey and Russia in recent times.
Alright, let's not hijack the thread with that bullshit.

[Kuningaz]

Please post your HarappaWorld.

95701

[Thracian]

95701

Can you also post your Eurogenes K13 and K15 and PuntDNAL K15 like this?

[Kaspias]

95701

What about PuntDNAL k15, Dodecad K12b and MDLP K23b? Please with mixed oracles.

[Leto]

Nice results, you are European basically.

[Kuningaz]

Can you also post your Eurogenes K13 and K15 and PuntDNAL K15 like this?

Eurogenes K13 + 15

95702

95703

PuntDNAL K15

95704

[Cumansky]

What an interesting result lol

[Maintenance]

Vad är 3 sista bokstäverna i ditt efternamn?

[Leto]

What about PuntDNAL k15, Dodecad K12b and MDLP K23b? Please with mixed oracles.
Yes, Dod K12b would be interesting too.

[Kuningaz]

What about PuntDNAL k15, Dodecad K12b and MDLP K23b? Please with mixed oracles.

MDLP k23b

95706

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 35.02
2 Caucasian 27.87
3 European_Early_Farmers 10.39
4 South_Central_Asian 7.59
5 Near_East 6.56
6 North_African 3.47
7 Ancestral_Altaic 3.42
8 South_East_Asian 2.04
9 East_Siberian 1.40

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarian_Budapest_ @ 11.821769
2 Bosnian_ @ 11.952256
3 Serb_BH_ @ 12.157659
4 Croat_ @ 12.475676
5 Montenegrian_ @ 12.510095
6 Serb_Serbia_ @ 12.562160
7 Tatar-Mishar_ @ 12.621222
8 Tatar-Kazan_ @ 12.822130
9 Croat_BH_ @ 12.994770
10 Czech_ @ 13.077118
11 Hungarian_ @ 13.338969
12 Tatar-Lithuanian_ @ 13.422843
13 Macedonian_ @ 13.445909
14 German_East_ @ 13.574080
15 Moksha_ @ 13.614877
16 Austrian_ @ 13.666592
17 Slovenian_ @ 13.760746
18 Bulgarian_ @ 13.830756
19 Slovak_ @ 14.765352
20 Swede_Saami_ @ 15.357983

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cretan_ +50% Karelian_ @ 4.740278

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% German_ +25% Iraqi_Mandean_ +25% Tatar_Mishar_ @ 2.879764

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Icelandic_ + Iranian_Jew_ + Kuban_cossack_ + Tatar-Mishar_ @

Dodecad k12b

95707

# Population Percent
1 North_European 40.95
2 Atlantic_Med 19.63
3 Caucasus 17.56
4 Gedrosia 7.63
5 Southwest_Asian 7.21
6 Siberian 3.88
7 Northwest_African 1.95

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarians_Behar @ 12.500645
2 Romanians_Behar @ 14.463479
3 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 15.706192
4 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 17.051180
5 German_Dodecad @ 18.478268
6 Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 23.358961
7 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad @ 23.726341
8 Polish_Dodecad @ 24.951452
9 Dutch_Dodecad @ 25.136045
10 Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 25.593485
11 Mordovians_Yunusbayev @ 26.300737
12 Chuvashs_Behar @ 26.301884
13 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 26.434521
14 French_Dodecad @ 27.083487
15 Swedish_Dodecad @ 27.407007
16 French_HGDP @ 27.567627
17 CEU30_1000Genomes @ 27.777878
18 Kent_1000Genomes @ 27.826305
19 English_Dodecad @ 27.983131
20 Russian_Dodecad @ 28.088158

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% FIN30_1000Genomes +50% Sephardic_Jews_Behar @ 5.586982

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Russian_HGDP +25% Spanish_Dodecad +25% Uzbekistan_Jews_Behar @ 2.512860

Using 4 populations approximation:

Extremadura_1000Genomes + Finnish_Dodecad + Iranian_Jews_Behar + Russian_HGDP @ 1.274753

[Lemminkäinen]

Funny that you, being only half Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% Turkish an I, being fully Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% German. Something really sucks.

[Jana]

Double.

[Jana]

Funny that you, being only half Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% Turkish an I, being fully Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% German. Something really sucks.

Are you from western Finland? Maybe he is half Eastern Finnish. From what I understand, Eastern Finns are very distinctive Finnish and SW Finns are mixed with Scandinavians (Swedes). Correct me if wrong.

[Samnium]

Funny that you, being only half Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% Turkish an I, being fully Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% German. Something really sucks.

It seems that you can be half/half and "inherit" more from one side on calculators.

[Lemminkäinen]

Are you from western Finland? Maybe he is half Eastern Finnish. From what I understand, Eastern Finns are very distinctive Finnish and SW Finns are mixed with Scandinavians (Swedes). Correct me if wrong.

Although I can understand your opinion, I disagree with you. All what you wrote is only a delusion created by a common ignorance of the Finnish history and problems of these admixture arithmetics. There are heaps of history books written in Finnish.

[Lemminkäinen]

It seems that you can be half/half and "inherit" more from one side on calculators.

Yeah, but the reality and history is another question.

[Jana]

Although I can understand your opinion, I disagree with you. All what you wrote is only a delusion created by a common ignorance of the Finnish history and problems of these admixture arithmetics. There are heaps of history books written in Finnish.

Genetic difference between eastern and SW Finns is huge, at least on gedmatch.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Eurogenes K13

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 29.71
2 North_Atlantic 24.04
3 East_Med 14.79
4 West_Asian 11.78
5 West_Med 8.83
6 Siberian 3.70
7 Red_Sea 3.22
8 Amerindian 1.69
9 South_Asian 1.19

Using 1 population approximation:
1

Swap the West Med with the East Med and you'd be just a Serb/Bosniak/NE Romanian with a somewhat higher Siberian + Amerindian and barely higher Red Sea.

Or lie a Moldovan with rather distant Tatar ancestry.

[Lemminkäinen]

Genetic difference between eastern and SW Finns is huge, at least on gedmatch.

And the reason is the known genetic drift in the east. For that reason the west Finns are closer even those Uralic groups in Russia, actually all people outside Finland.

[Methuselah]

Funny that you, being only half Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% Turkish an I, being fully Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% German. Something really sucks.

Do you know if there is any Swedish ancestry in your family?

[Lemminkäinen]

Do you know if there is any Swedish ancestry in your family?

I know my paternal ancestry (ydna line) to the beginning of the 16 century and my maternal one (mtdna) to the beginning of the 17th century. In general the genealogical history to the same depth. My only Swedish ancestry is from the late 1500s and from Northern Sweden and there was only one person, likely partly Finnish. I do have Baltic German, Scottish and German ancestors from the same Swedish heyday era, but only a few individuals. The discussion on internet is pretty much way off and follows old trolling logic. Scientific research is absolutely another thing, but who reads Finnish history. Almost no one. Seriously, there are hundreds books written by historians and studies, but none in internet. The fascinating Finnish story in internet has been build up of trolls' opinions, but it has very little to do with facts. Honestly, how many Finnish history books you have read? Tell me book names.

[Leto]

Genetic difference between eastern and SW Finns is huge, at least on gedmatch.
It's the same people.
I'm getting sick of expert opinions on every single nation and tribe.

[Jana]

It's the same people.
I'm getting sick of expert opinions on every single nation and tribe.

Same by identity and culture, not by genetics. You sound like SJW sometimes. There is nothing wrong in not being uniform.

[Kuningaz]

Funny that you, being only half Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% Turkish an I, being fully Finnish, get 60% Finnish and 40% German. Something really sucks.

On 23andme I get some Eastern European ancestry. I wonder where it comes from. I think I have some Slavic ancestry on my Turkish side, that maybe gets compressed into additional Finnish?

My haplogroup is I-m438, which seems to be a very old and basal haplogroup (older than the most common Slavic I2a's).


Are you from western Finland? Maybe he is half Eastern Finnish. From what I understand, Eastern Finns are very distinctive Finnish and SW Finns are mixed with Scandinavians (Swedes). Correct me if wrong.

Finns are not mixed with Scandinavians, it's the other way around. My Finnish parent is from southwestern Finland and is probably more or less identical to a Finland-Swede. Finland has only been sparsely populated by Swedes.


Swap the West Med with the East Med and you'd be just a Serb/Bosniak/NE Romanian with a somewhat higher Siberian + Amerindian and barely higher Red Sea.
Or lie a Moldovan with rather distant Tatar ancestry.

Interesting. Makes me wonder where the West Med comes from. Is that Iberian? Is it common in Greeks?

[Lemminkäinen]

Same by identity and culture, not by genetics. You sound like SJW sometimes. There is nothing wrong in not being uniform.

Untrue. The question is not about feelings, but facts.

[Roy]

You are an interesting genetic combination, sorry if it comes off as awkward :)

I assumed you would score some Central Asian / East Asian but you don't. But Turks and Finns are diverse in this aspect. You score just 3%+ of Siberian.

[Lemminkäinen]

@Kuningaz, 23andme gives a very reliable result of our genealogical ancestry, because their goal has been to serve US citizens and their ancestry covers only a genealogical time frame. What they miss is all before Columbus, also on our side of the Atlantic Ocean.

[Kuningaz]

Do you know exact place in Thessaloniki? Because Thessaloniki is big place. City center, or from village if it is not too personal.

I wouldn't have any idea. The only reason I know this is because the Turkish state released its genealogy records back in 2018: https://www.google.com/amp/s/ahvalnews.com/society/turkeys-population-register-made-public-consolidate-muslim-nationalist-identity-columnist%3famp


Vad är 3 sista bokstäverna i ditt efternamn?

PMa mig om du har personliga frågor.

[Dick]

It seems that you can be half/half and "inherit" more from one side on calculators.

I can’t see how it’s plausible for him to get 10% more from another parent. Here’s what I share with my father


Shared DNA 49.3% (3,497.0‎ cM)
Shared segments
25
Largest segment
284.3 cM

[JosephK]

It seems that you can be half/half and "inherit" more from one side on calculators.

Yeah, but it's true, the randomness of genetic recombination can cause one to inherit much more of one parent, even one grandparent's DNA (I seem to be about 35% my mother's father).
But also, the DNA testing process will also, I'm sure, interpret things unequally. That's why so many people can get such different results from different testing companies.

[Lemminkäinen]

I wouldn't have any idea. The only reason I know this is because the Turkish state released its genealogy records back in 2018: https://www.google.com/amp/s/ahvalnews.com/society/turkeys-population-register-made-public-consolidate-muslim-nationalist-identity-columnist%3famp



PMa mig om du har personliga frågor.

This is also a trollish idea. In many cases ending "nen" don't mean East Finnish ancestry, neither *sson Swedish ancestry.

[Kuningaz]

So based on my results, how would you classify me racially and ethnically? Turkish or Greek? European or Asian? White or mixed race? My identity has changed somewhat since I took the DNA test. I regard myself as Greek and Finnish. Actually mostly Finnish (culturally speaking).

[Leto]

So based on my results, how would you classify me racially and ethnically? Turkish or Greek? European or Asian? White or mixed race? My identity has changed somewhat since I took the DNA test. I regard myself as Greek and Finnish. Actually mostly Finnish (culturally speaking).
Definitely not mixed race. I'd say you are white, especially if your Turkish side has confirmed assimilated European ancestry (Greek and/or Balkan) and also unless you're Muslim (Islam is just incompatible with European identity IMO). However I haven't seen what you actually look like. You can send me a photo, I won't share it with anyone.

[Kaspias]

So based on my results, how would you classify me racially and ethnically? Turkish or Greek? European or Asian? White or mixed race? My identity has changed somewhat since I took the DNA test. I regard myself as Greek and Finnish. Actually mostly Finnish (culturally speaking).

It's all about what/how you prefer to identify. Social norms are stronger than genetic most of time.

Turks from Thessaloniki are ethnic Turks most of time although I have seen few assimilated Muslim Greeks; they call themselves "Patriyot" which is a seperated ethnicity than Turks. But in anyway, Turks of the region are around 80% native(Bulgarian/Macedonian/Greek) as well. Carrying native heritage is present in any type of Turkish groups, so there is nothing special.

[Leto]

It's all about what/how you prefer to identify. Social norms are stronger than genetic most of time.

Turks from Thessaloniki are ethnic Turks most of time although I have seen few assimilated Muslim Greeks; they call themselves "Patriyot" which is a seperated ethnicity than Turks. But in anyway, Turks of the region are around 80% native(Bulgarian/Macedonian/Greek) as well. Carrying native heritage is present in any type of Turkish groups, so there is nothing special.
But his Turkish father is half Cretan, isn't he? Those are basically Islamicized Greek Islanders, right?

[Kaspias]

But his Turkish father is half Cretan, isn't he? Those are basically Islamicized Greek Islanders, right?

Again, there are both Muslim Cretan and Turkish Cretan communities.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?289350-Cretan-Turk-Gedmatch-results
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?289357-Cretan-Turk-Gedmatch-results-3
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?289353-Cretan-Turk-Gedmatch-results-2

[Leto]

Again, there are both Muslim Cretan and Turkish Cretan communities.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?289350-Cretan-Turk-Gedmatch-results
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?289357-Cretan-Turk-Gedmatch-results-3
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?289353-Cretan-Turk-Gedmatch-results-2
Well, they may call themselves Turks now, I wasn't talking about that. Looking at those three individuals I see they're barely 3-5% Mongoloid. I mean Finns have more than them, lol. Let's be honest, most of their ancestry is not even Anatolian Turkish. Gagauz people don't call themselves Bulgarian either or whatever their roots are.

[Leto]

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 31.05
2 Atlantic_Med 24.2
3 North_European 17.3
4 Southwest_Asian 11.49
5 Gedrosia 7.09
6 East_Asian 3.23
7 East_African 1.98
8 Northwest_African 1.78
9 Siberian 1.26
10 Sub_Saharan 0.62

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 30.45
2 Atlantic_Med 22.8
3 North_European 19.85
4 Southwest_Asian 10.69
5 Gedrosia 7.58
6 East_Asian 3.15
7 East_African 1.73
8 Northwest_African 1.72
9 Siberian 1.25
10 Sub_Saharan 0.6
11 Southeast_Asian 0.18

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.1
2 Atlantic_Med 20.14
3 Southwest_Asian 14.25
4 North_European 13.84
5 Gedrosia 8.36
6 East_African 5.23
7 East_Asian 2.04
8 Northwest_African 1.77
9 Sub_Saharan 1.28

The last guy seems to have way more African ancestry than East Eurasian, lol

[Bender1999]

So based on my results, how would you classify me racially and ethnically? Turkish or Greek? European or Asian? White or mixed race? My identity has changed somewhat since I took the DNA test. I regard myself as Greek and Finnish. Actually mostly Finnish (culturally speaking).

You shouldn’t ask „Who i am?“ to others, especially not in this forum. Imo „white, black, mixed“ are term for Americans(in old times), i don’t understand why everyone like to use this terms, regardless of their ideology. Also your identity shouldn’t be changed just because of your DNA test. Idk how and if you where proud of your side, i think you can still consider yourself as Turk. There are a lot of examples where groups have not the same or totally different genetics than the people which they belong, despite this they still consider themselves as a part of them. I think it is ok(and important imo) if you say about you i am a Turk with Cretan/Thessaloniki roots which includes Greeks, no one not even Turks will care about that. The muhacirs in Turkey love their land or look to Lazes, they are proud of beeing Laz and one if the most patriotic groups in Turkey. I don’t want to say you should be patriotic but i just give examples.
But if you are actually just practicing a Finnish lifestyle, you really shouldn’t care about that stuff.

[Finnish Swede]

Do you look more like Turk or more like Finn? Or where overall you would fit the best based on your look (by thinking Turkey and whole Europe)?

Of course you can decided by yourself will you want identify as people A, people B, people C. But in reality, that should also mean (if the whole matter has any point/value), those people (which you choose) should also accept you as one of them. Who would/will?

Just my thoughs ...

I have though bit similar matters from all angles :).
Personally I have never felt to be Finn (to associate them). But between Finnish Swedes and Swedes? I basically call myself as Finnish Swede as I have lived in Finland (which will change now) and because I have exactly personally wanted to bring up my ''speciality?'' vs normal Swedes. If I will stay long period in Sweden (who knows, even rest of my life) ... it will be interesting to follow will my selfseeing change in some point.

[Kaspias]

Well, they may call themselves Turks now, I wasn't talking about that. Looking at those three individuals I see they're barely 3-5% Mongoloid. I mean Finns have more than them, lol. Let's be honest, most of their ancestry is not even Anatolian Turkish. Gagauz people don't call themselves Bulgarian either or whatever their roots are.

Unlike Balkan Turks who have full Central Asian ancestors, Cretan Turks were migrated from Anatolia after the Anatolian Turk ethnicity formed. These results are half Anatolian Turk and half native Cretan. So, one part of them has always been calling themselves Turk, and the other one is acquired with mixing. I was already honest when I stated Turks are 80% native as well, which is confirmed with these results. In addition, African admixture is about the slave trade from Egypt. You will realize that even a 3rd mixing couldn't absorb the East Eurasian. It is not possible Cretan Greeks score such an amount of EE.

What am I trying to explain is Turkishness in Crete is not only related to being Muslim. Muslim Greeks were not even speaking Turkish before they escape to Anatolia. They had become Muslim without or small dervish interaction, mostly because of trade privileges given to Muslim merchants.

https://i.ibb.co/Zcd9pPx/Girit.png

[altaic]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I was wondering how Scandinavian and Turkish mix will look on 23andme. You should call yourself whatever you would like. I might even be 5% Finnish from Turku, who knows :D

[Windstorm]

In the Ottoman empire, Turks were in the land army. The navy was controlled by Albanians and Greek Muslims. Turks who were good sailors were anti Ottoman and had their own states such as Menteshe, SaruKhan, Aydin. Ottomans destroyed them and forced those Aegean sailor Turks to settle Bulgaria and start new life as agricultural farmers. Consequently, famous Ottoman sailors were not Turks. Barbarossa, Oruc reis, Turgut reis were all Greeks and Albanians.

Cretan Muslims are not Turks but Greek speaking, ethnic Greek Sunnis. There are communities of Greek Cretan Muslims in Syria and Lebanon to this day and they still have Greek as mother language. In Turkey you have also some of those Muslim Greeks living in the country's Western coast, with the elderly generations still fluent in Greek language.

[Kaspias]

.


In the Ottoman empire, Turks were in the land army. The navy was controlled by Albanians and Greek Muslims. Consequently, famous Ottoman sailors were not Turks. Barbarossa, Oruc reis, Turgut reis were all Greeks and Albanians.



Albanians? No. Greek Muslims? Yes.

Navy was under the control of both Muslim Greeks and Turks who settled(left nomadic tradition). Consequently, these Turks were mixed with Muslim Greeks while Nomadic ones continued to supply the land force.

Barbarossa and Oruc: 1/2 Balkan Turk(Vardar, Macedonia), 1/2 Islander Greek.
Turgut: Anatolian Turk. (Muğla)


Turks who were good sailors were anti Ottoman and had their own states such as Menteshe, SaruKhan, Aydin. Ottomans destroyed them and forced those Aegean sailor Turks to settle Bulgaria and start new life as agricultural farmers.

These Beyliks who are good sailors continue to be sailors after the Ottoman conquest. The people who were migrated to Balkans were of Yörük origin who lives in the inner part of Beyliks. Coast communities weren't touched.

Ottomans were pragmatists to begin with.


Cretan Muslims are not Turks but Greek speaking, ethnic Greek Sunnis. There are communities of Greek Cretan Muslims in Syria and Lebanon to this day and they still have Greek as mother language.



There were both Muslim and Turkish Cretan communities, while Turks form the majority, amount of Greeks were not small as well. Yet, probably some of them preferred to turn back to Christianity instead of migrating to Anatolia while all of the Turks escaped. Cretan Greeks were not able to speak Turkish before migration and most of their descendants are aware of their ancestors spoke Greek once while this doesn't apply to the case of Turks. So there is a basic distinguishing method.

On the other hand, in Turkey today, the only people who can speak Greek by born are "Patriyots" who live in the outer villages of Istanbul. Another one is a community that live in Nevsehir, Urgup, migrated from Kastoria to there. Young generation can't speak at all and the other communities are already assimilated.


In Turkey you have also some of those Muslim Greeks living in the country's Western coast, with the elderly generations still fluent in Greek language.

This is not true.

Greeks of Western Coast were not Muslims and they left Turkey with population exchange. Muslim Greeks settled in the region are assimilated shortly after they migrate.



After all, I should mention Muslim Greek population in Turkey were not more than 200.000(Macedonia + Kastoria + Trikala + Crete + Rhodes.)

[Kuningaz]

Definitely not mixed race. I'd say you are white, especially if your Turkish side has confirmed assimilated European ancestry (Greek and/or Balkan) and also unless you're Muslim (Islam is just incompatible with European identity IMO)

No, I am a Christian actually. I guess I will sound heretical from a Turkish perspective but I identify more with the pre ottoman Byzantine and Roman Christian cultures. I'm not a fan of modern nationalism and I think most modern states are artificial creations.


I haven't seen what you actually look like. You can send me a photo, I won't share it with anyone.

No pictures atm.


It's all about what/how you prefer to identify. Social norms are stronger than genetic most of time.

Yes, but genetics are important too. Turk is a passport, and I don't have one.


You shouldn’t ask „Who i am?“ to others, especially not in this forum. Imo „white, black, mixed“ are term for Americans(in old times), i don’t understand why everyone like to use this terms, regardless of their ideology. Also your identity shouldn’t be changed just because of your DNA test. Idk how and if you where proud of your side, i think you can still consider yourself as Turk. There are a lot of examples where groups have not the same or totally different genetics than the people which they belong, despite this they still consider themselves as a part of them. I think it is ok(and important imo) if you say about you i am a Turk with Cretan/Thessaloniki roots which includes Greeks, no one not even Turks will care about that. The muhacirs in Turkey love their land or look to Lazes, they are proud of beeing Laz and one if the most patriotic groups in Turkey. I don’t want to say you should be patriotic but i just give examples.
But if you are actually just practicing a Finnish lifestyle, you really shouldn’t care about that stuff.

I hear you, but my identity wasn't exactly rock solid before the dna test either. Now, I have a clearer picture.


Do you look more like Turk or more like Finn? Or where overall you would fit the best based on your look (by thinking Turkey and whole Europe)?

Um, I'd say I look very Balkan overall. Serbian and Bosnian are common guesses.


Of course you can decided by yourself will you want identify as people A, people B, people C. But in reality, that should also mean (if the whole matter has any point/value), those people (which you choose) should also accept you as one of them. Who would/will?

Well I am Swedish by birth and that is my residence. But I generally shy away from any kind of group belongings (like most Swedes).


I have though bit similar matters from all angles :).
Personally I have never felt to be Finn (to associate them). But between Finnish Swedes and Swedes? I basically call myself as Finnish Swede as I have lived in Finland (which will change now) and because I have exactly personally wanted to bring up my ''speciality?'' vs normal Swedes. If I will stay long period in Sweden (who knows, even rest of my life) ... it will be interesting to follow will my selfseeing change in some point.

So you're too good to be a Finnish peasant huh? ;)


Interesting, thanks for sharing. I was wondering how Scandinavian and Turkish mix will look on 23andme. You should call yourself whatever you would like. I might even be 5% Finnish from Turku, who knows :D

You're welcome.

[Leto]

No, I am a Christian actually. I guess I will sound heretical from a Turkish perspective but I identify more with the pre ottoman Byzantine and Roman Christian cultures. I'm not a fan of modern nationalism and I think most modern states are artificial creations.

That's refreshing to hear from someone with Turkish ancestry. Usually they would at least nominally identify more strongly with Turco-Muslim culture even if they have a white mother.


Well I am Swedish by birth and that is my residence. But I generally shy away from any kind of group belongings (like most Swedes).
They shy away from that so much that they now claim there is no such thing as ethnic Swedes. Being actually from Sweden you should know the disastrous consequences of such an ideology better than me (hopefully).

I have added you to the list of members. You can compare yourself to other TA members (both former and active)
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?330249-Model-yourself-with-other-Apricity-members-with-Dodecad-K12b-and-Vahaduo

[Finnish Swede]

So you're too good to be a Finnish peasant huh? ;)

I'm hardly too ''good'' person. Just a bit different. As my mom's ancestors came from Sweden, they were more wealthy than average Finns. Thanks to that, we have owned these lands for quite some time. Today? We're just normal upper middle class family (and my parents works hard).

It just is that I do not identify myself to Finns. Some here quickly went to call me rasist against Finns. Well, I have been called everything: leftists to nazis, feminist to racists ... so I could not care less. But if some have really read my posts bit more, well ... I actually value Finns more than many other here. That just will not make me feel one of them.

I was 15 years old then I first time visited/cyckled Finns side here in Ostrobothnia (alone). But there is no problem to be Finnish Swede (and very Swedes looking) in Finland if you are girl :). Finns likes that type. But if you are guy, then you might face some problems (if you speak swedish in wrong places).

[Kuningaz]

That's refreshing to hear from someone with Turkish ancestry. Usually they would at least nominally identify more strongly with Turco-Muslim culture even if they have a white mother.

I used to identify as Turkish, as I grew up among Muslim immigrants and spent many summers in Turkey. But eventually I came to appreciate Western culture more, and embarked on the Christian path.


They shy away from that so much that they now claim there is no such thing as ethnic Swedes. Being actually from Sweden you should know the disastrous consequences of such an ideology better than me (hopefully).

I see this self-denialism as a Swedish welfare phenomenon. Because they can afford it, your average Swede has come to treat the planet as a tourist attraction. Of course, this individualistic hotel mentality and exotic fetischism is part of the existential holiday of modern democracy. But nature will eventually bounce back.


I have added you to the list of members. You can compare yourself to other TA members (both former and active)
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?330249-Model-yourself-with-other-Apricity-members-with-Dodecad-K12b-and-Vahaduo

Ok cheers.


I'm hardly too ''good'' person. Just a bit different. As my mom's ancestors came from Sweden, they were more wealthy than average Finns. Thanks to that, we have owned these lands for quite some time. Today? We're just normal upper middle class family (and my parents works hard).

I'm just joking anyway. I like the Finland Swedes better than the mainland ones.


It just is that I do not identify myself to Finns. Some here quickly went to call me rasist against Finns.

Well, you don't have to. After all you are part of the natural Swedish upper caste. I endorse you, but remember that you are genetically Finnish. ;)


I actually value Finns more than many other here. That just will not make me feel one of them.

I'm sure you do. The Finns probably have more distaste towards the Finland Swedes than the other way around. It's the usual class warfare of modern democracies. The issue lies in Finns' looking upon Swedish culture as something alien, rather than a natural part of Finland's history and heritage.


I was 15 years old then I first time visited/cyckled Finns side here in Ostrobothnia (alone). But there is no problem to be Finnish Swede (and very Swedes looking) in Finland if you are girl :). Finns likes that type. But if you are guy, then you might face some problems (if you speak swedish in wrong places).

I see. Well I will always enjoy the Finnish-Swedish rivalry!

[Noble Cuman]

Albanians? No. Greek Muslims? Yes.

Navy was under the control of both Muslim Greeks and Turks who settled(left nomadic tradition). Consequently, these Turks were mixed with Muslim Greeks while Nomadic ones continued to supply the land force.

Barbarossa and Oruc: 1/2 Balkan Turk(Vardar, Macedonia), 1/2 Islander Greek.
Turgut: Anatolian Turk. (Muğla)



These Beyliks who are good sailors continue to be sailors after the Ottoman conquest. The people who were migrated to Balkans were of Yörük origin who lives in the inner part of Beyliks. Coast communities weren't touched.

Ottomans were pragmatists to begin with.




There were both Muslim and Turkish Cretan communities, while Turks form the majority, amount of Greeks were not small as well. Yet, probably some of them preferred to turn back to Christianity instead of migrating to Anatolia while all of the Turks escaped. Cretan Greeks were not able to speak Turkish before migration and most of their descendants are aware of their ancestors spoke Greek once while this doesn't apply to the case of Turks. So there is a basic distinguishing method.

On the other hand, in Turkey today, the only people who can speak Greek by born are "Patriyots" who live in the outer villages of Istanbul. Another one is a community that live in Nevsehir, Urgup, migrated from Kastoria to there. Young generation can't speak at all and the other communities are already assimilated.



This is not true.

Greeks of Western Coast were not Muslims and they left Turkey with population exchange. Muslim Greeks settled in the region are assimilated shortly after they migrate.



After all, I should mention Muslim Greek population in Turkey were not more than 200.000(Macedonia + Kastoria + Trikala + Crete + Rhodes.)

Some people claim Barbarossa(Red beard) as Albanian. His father was sipahi and had lands where his son was born. Her mother was a christian Greek Islander from Lesbos. They do the same thing for Turgut Reis and say he was convert Greek from Muğla. It doesn't really matter in my opinion. They were successful commanders.

[Harkonnen]

And the reason is the known genetic drift in the east. For that reason the west Finns are closer even those Uralic groups in Russia, actually all people outside Finland.

Nonsense this drift dabble. It is fact you are genetically closer to Komi and Mansi than I am. I am gods own unique creature. No one like me.

[Harkonnen]

This is also a trollish idea. In many cases ending "nen" don't mean East Finnish ancestry, neither *sson Swedish ancestry.

Almost always means East Finnish ancestry.

[Lemminkäinen]

Almost always means East Finnish ancestry.

Almost all surnames with nen-ending and figuring environment are Fennomanic names. Like Aaltonen, Mäkinen, Jokinen, Kuusinen, Honkanen, Virtanen etc. Another popular way to twist old names is to translate old Swedish name to Finninsh, f. ex. Forsman > Koskimies > Koskinen. Koskinen is hurri.

[Harkonnen]

Almost all surnames with nen-ending and figuring environment are Fennomanic names. Like Aaltonen, Mäkinen, Jokinen, Kuusinen, Honkanen, Virtanen etc. Another popular way to twist old names is to translate old Swedish name to Finninsh, f. ex. Forsman > Koskimies > Koskinen. Koskinen is hurri.

This sound so much dribble I can't even

[Lemminkäinen]

This sound so much dribble I can't even

You only need to educate yourself. Come back then.

[Lemminkäinen]

Harkonnen, a thesis to read:

https://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/41762/mikkonen_vaitoskirja.pdf%3Fsequence%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwijkdfq0e3rAhUt-yoKHVV7BL0QFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0xh2Nf8F8TahH_7d-XlU55&cshid=1600258547976

[Marmara]

No, I am a Christian actually. I guess I will sound heretical from a Turkish perspective but I identify more with the pre ottoman Byzantine and Roman Christian cultures. I'm not a fan of modern nationalism and I think most modern states are artificial creations.

You are from diaspora, you would not be seen very turkish even if you were fully Turkish in many people's eyes, therefore you don't have to worry about what you identify with.

[Leto]

You are from diaspora, you would not be seen very turkish even if you were fully Turkish in many people's eyes, therefore you don't have to worry about what you identify with.
Turks in Western Europe are oftentimes more staunch Erdogan supporters and Islamists than people actually living in Turkey. Not all, I know, but a few studies in Europe have noted that trend.

[Noble Cuman]

Turks in Western Europe are oftentimes more staunch Erdogan supporters and Islamists than people actually living in Turkey. Not all, I know, but a few studies in Europe have noted that trend.

Because usually people from Central and Eastern Anatolia migrate to Europe. People from Thrace and Western Anatolia migrate less.
They also migrate to western parts of Turkey to have a better life. I believe Balkan Turks tend to be more western. Balkan Turks are more populous in western parts of Turkey.

[Ylla]

Congrats, I expected such a mix to have higher siberian/altaic but u actually score less than my son surprisingly.

[Kuningaz]

Congrats, I expected such a mix to have higher siberian/altaic but u actually score less than my son surprisingly.

Congrats for what? Is siberian ancestry a bad thing? :rolleyes:

What's your son's ethnic composition?

[Harkonnen]

You only need to educate yourself. Come back then.

Almost all names with nen-ending have Savonian origin. Sure couple might have jumped the glory wagon, but most are realmccoys. That all I know.

[Lemminkäinen]

Almost all names with nen-ending have Savonian origin. Sure couple might have jumped the glory wagon, but most are realmccoys. That all I know.

You know amazingly little.

[Harkonnen]

You know amazingly little.

I've read every book on topic. You can't fool me.

[Östsvensk]

I've read every book on topic. You can't fool me.

Majority of Finns in Sweden came from the north (Lappland and Ostrobothnia) and -nen names are pretty common, like the journalist Fredrik Virtanen.

[Harkonnen]

There are many Ostrobothnians with -nen ending indeed, like author Artturi Leinonen. Almost all of these Ostrobothnians are spawn of East Finnish seed.

[Noble Cuman]

Can you sing Polkka though? Nice results by the way. You are mostly European I would say.

[Harkonnen]

Can you sing Polkka though? Nice results by the way. You are mostly European I would say.

Polkka is German/Bohemian music which spread to Finland from Russia. I've no idea why people nowadays associate this with Finnishness. I guess its that 1 song which became a meme at a point in history.

[Noble Cuman]

Polkka is German/Bohemian music which spread to Finland from Russia. I've no idea why people nowadays associate this with Finnishness. I guess its that 1 song which became a meme at a point in history.

I did not know. I like the song. Many things that people associate with Turks do not belong to Turkic culture too. Like kebab, kadayıf and other Mena foods.

[Lemminkäinen]

Majority of Finns in Sweden came from the north (Lappland and Ostrobothnia) and -nen names are pretty common, like the journalist Fredrik Virtanen.

Also Virtanen is South or West Finnish and is one of most common Finnish surnames.

[Lemminkäinen]

There are many Ostrobothnians with -nen ending indeed, like author Artturi Leinonen. Almost all of these Ostrobothnians are spawn of East Finnish seed.

This is also true, but try to be reasonable, if it is possible. In many cases East Finns moved to empty western farms and houses after the Great Northern War, after West Finns moved to Sweden. The original East Finnish genesis happened 500 years ago of the beaten Karelians and original eastern dwellers, Lapps.

[Harkonnen]

Also Virtanen is South or West Finnish.

A.I. Virtanen's dad was born in Viipuri :coffee:

[Lemminkäinen]

A.I. Virtanen's dad was born in Viipuri :coffee:

I didn't know that Viipuri is in East Finland and people living there are East Finns. Every day something new.


Nimi kuuluu 1800-luvun lopulla otettuna nimenä nopeasti yleisiksi tulleisiin niin sanottuihin Virtanen-tyypin sukunimiin. Tästä johtuu, että nimen yleisyydestä huolimatta vanhoja asiakirjatietoja siitä on vain vähän. Nimi on lähinnä länsisuomalainen kuten Virtanen-tyypin nimet yleensäkin.


The name is a name that is rapidly common as a name of the so-called Virtanen type, which is called ‘Virtanen’. This is because, despite the frequency of the name, there are little old documents on this. The name is mainly Western Finnish, as usual the names of the Virtanen type

https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtanen

[Harkonnen]

I didn't know that Viipuri is in East Finland and people living there are East Finns. Every day something new.



The name is a name that is rapidly common as a name of the so-called Virtanen type, which is called ‘Virtanen’. This is because, despite the frequency of the name, there are little old documents on this. The name is mainly Western Finnish, as usual the names of the Virtanen type

https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtanen

Viipuri is like capital of East Finland you fool. Anyway what comes to A.I., I was just pulling your leg, I place him West Finnish person BUT Jukka and Ville Virtanen are East Finns. Fight me.

Edit. A.I.s dad was actually born in Mouhijärvi, I remembered wrong. Died in Viipuri.

[Lemminkäinen]

Viipuri is like capital of East Finland you fool. Anyway what comes to A.I., I was just pulling your leg, I place him West Finnish person BUT Jukka and Ville Virtanen are East Finns. Fight me.

Probably West Finns who moved to East Finland.

You aree funny, Viipuri has never been in East Finland. The only connection between East Finland and Viipuri comes from the 13th century when in Crusades beaten Karelians carried same Karelian ethnic name with present-day Russian Karelians living as a minority in Viipuri. East Finns are a mixture of Lapps and those people who lived almost 1000 years ago. People today and 100 years ago living in Viipuri have nothing to do with those ancient people, but East Finns can have a small remnant of those people.

[Harkonnen]

Probably West Finns who moved to East Finland.

You aree funny, Viipuri has never been in East Finland. The only connection between East Finland and Viipuri comes from the 13th century when in Crusades beaten Karelians carried same Karelian ethnic name with present-day Russian Karelians living as a minority in Viipuri. East Finns are a mixture of Lapps and those people who lived almost 1000 years ago. People today and 100 years ago living in Viipuri have nothing to do with those ancient people, but East Finns can have a small remnant of those people.

ha ha you are a funny fellow with even funnier ideas. There was not a single fact on that text you just vomited.

Also *probably* is a poor way to start a sentence if you want to convince me J. Virtanen is not a East Finn.

[Lemminkäinen]

ha ha you are a funny fellow with even funnier ideas. There was not a single fact on that text you just vomited.

Also *probably* is a poor way to start a sentence if you want to convince me J. Virtanen is not a East Finn.

You must have a troll factory in Savolax, no need to search it from St. Petersburg :)

[Kuningaz]

My ancient origins:

107678

Million dollar question: is the Asiatic Finnic or Turkic?

107679

Is my Finnish parent 100 % Baltic HG?

107680

What's up with the south Asian?

[Kuningaz]

Updated paternal haplogroup:

I-Z26381

It seems like an uncommon haplogroup among 23andme customers. Anyone familiar with it? What does it tell about my ancestry?

[Viquol]

unexpected

[placebo]

No, I am a Christian actually. I guess I will sound heretical from a Turkish perspective but I identify more with the pre ottoman Byzantine and Roman Christian cultures. I'm not a fan of modern nationalism and I think most modern states are artificial creations.


no you don't sound heretical from turkish perspective. i guess you have wrong prejudices because of the turks in europe. even some fully turks thinks like you but most of the population more identify with turkic heritage rather than roman/byzantine or islamic.

[Kuningaz]

unexpected

How so?


no you don't sound heretical from turkish perspective. i guess you have wrong prejudices because of the turks in europe. even some fully turks thinks like you but most of the population more identify with turkic heritage rather than roman/byzantine or islamic.

Most Turks think they are Shamans from deep Asia.

[Roy]

Does anyone know what Finnic people like Votes and Ingrians score?

[Östsvensk]

Does anyone know what Finnic people like Votes and Ingrians score?

I don't know about DNA results, but Ingrians at least were claimed to look less Mongoloid in phenotype. The chart below stated that zero Ingrians had the Mongoloid eyefold.


Ingrians, Izhorians, and Votic-Izhorians - in comparison to Estonians, have more of the (AL) and Baltic (YL) types - the main indicator approaches 83, the nasal indicator 68/69, and the Chukhonskiy (AQ) type practically not at all (there is no or almost no flat facial profile, less Mongolian folds and strong eyelid folds). According to Mark, representatives of the population type of the East Baltic race of the Baltic-White Sea region.
https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/statystyki-krajow-regionow-populacji/europa/ludy-ugrofinskie-antropologia-fizyczna#uwagi-do-danych-w-tabeli-2

[Russki]

Does anyone know what Finnic people like Votes and Ingrians score?


Ingrians are Finns from South-Central Finland whom the Swedes planted on our territory during 1600s.

Votes are a tribe of Estonians who weren't converted to Protestantism.

[Pater Patota]

Wondering how you look.You better open a classification thread in personal taxonomy section.

[Lemminkäinen]

Does anyone know what Finnic people like Votes and Ingrians score?

Genetically Ingrians are like South Finns before East Finnish admixture. Votes could have been more like Estonians, but I have not seen examples.

[Kuningaz]

Wondering how you look.You better open a classification thread in personal taxonomy section.

I've thought about it but never felt really comfortable with it. I'll stick to my genetic profile for now. My phenotype is very Balkan -ish overall.

[Pater Patota]

I've thought about it but never felt really comfortable with it. I'll stick to my genetic profile for now. My phenotype is very Balkan -ish overall.

So, i guess you're mainly Pontid.

[Kuningaz]

So, i guess you're mainly Pontid.

I think that would be fairly accurate.

[Kuningaz]

I have researched my updated haplogroup (I-Y16419) which is part of the I2c branch (rather than I2a previously assigned by 23andme):

122610

It's part of the Caucasian/Black Sea branch rather than the Balkan branch (I2a). It seems to be common among Armenians, and it came to them with proto-Indo-European conquerors (along with R1a males).

122613

Somehow it seems to have gotten from Caucasus to Crete (since I am paternally Cretan).

Here's my results with Finnish ancestry subtracted:

122611

Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000000
50.0 Finn
48.6 non-Finn
1.3 Amerindian
0.1 Noise

And here's a PCA plot which shows Cretan Turks being between mainland Greeks and Anatolian Greeks (consistent with my own profile):

122612