The Portuguese Invasion

[Ouistreham]

Most common surnames at birth in Ile-de-France (Paris' Region) during 1966-1990:

1 Martin 10587
2 Da silva 7045 (Portuguese)
3 Pereira 5753 (Portuguese)
4 Petit 5533
5 Dos santos 5381 (Portuguese)
6 Ferreira 5303 (Portuguese)
7 Rodrigues 4974 (Portuguese)
8 Dubois 4953
9 Bernard 4852
10 Fernandes 4631 (Portuguese)
11 Moreau 4622
12 Goncalves 4610 (Portuguese)
13 Thomas 4591
14 Garcia 4576 (Spanish)
15 Richard 4446
16 Robert 4415
17 Leroy 4202
18 Simon 4132
19 Durand 4074
20 Martins 3935 (Portuguese)
21 Laurent 3919
22 Lefèvre 3912
23 Lefebvre 3628
24 Cohen 3471 (Jewish)
25 Rousseau 3354
26 Michel 3349
27 David 3338
28 Lopes 3317 (Portuguese)
29 Traore 3188 (African)
30 Fournier 3072
31 Lambert 3042
32 Perez 2988 (Spanish)
33 Garnier 2985
34 Fontaine 2947
35 Gomes 2938 (Portuguese)
36 Ribeiro 2926 (Portuguese)
37 Da costa 2911 (Portuguese)
38 Girard 2894
39 Legrand 2822
40 Martinez 2809 (Spanish)
41 Bertrand 2795
42 Marques 2793 (Portuguese)
43 Dupont 2773
44 François 2771
45 André 2766
46 Mercier 2765
47 Lopez 2752 (Spanish)
48 Guérin 2734
49 Fernandez 2732 (Spanish)
50 Morin 2719

http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/hitreg.cgi?periode=4&code=13

[Sikeliot]

Four of my family surnames are on the list :lol:

[Tel Errant]

Languedoc-Roussillon region for the same period:

1 GARCIA 4469
2 MARTINEZ 4014
3 LOPEZ 2679
4 SANCHEZ 2605
5 MARTIN 2221
6 PEREZ 2183
7 VIDAL 2129
8 FABRE 1572
9 FERNANDEZ 1559
10 RODRIGUEZ 1490


Bouches du Rhône departement:

1 GARCIA 2068
2 MARTINEZ 1934
3 FERNANDEZ 1883
4 MARTIN 1683
5 SANTIAGO 1627
6 LOPEZ 1375
7 RODRIGUEZ 1262
8 SANCHEZ 1241
9 PEREZ 1177
10 BLANC 1157


French names are bolded.

[Lábaru]

Sometimes gives the impression that France has always been invaded by foreign

[Damião de Góis]

And where are the arab and maghrebi surnames? I would expect those to be in greater numbers. They don't even make the top.

[Comte Arnau]

Languedoc-Roussillon region for the same period:

1 GARCIA 4469
2 MARTINEZ 4014
3 LOPEZ 2679
4 SANCHEZ 2605
5 MARTIN 2221
6 PEREZ 2183
7 VIDAL 2129
8 FABRE 1572
9 FERNANDEZ 1559
10 RODRIGUEZ 1490


Bouches du Rhône departement:

1 GARCIA 2068
2 MARTINEZ 1934
3 FERNANDEZ 1883
4 MARTIN 1683
5 SANTIAGO 1627
6 LOPEZ 1375
7 RODRIGUEZ 1262
8 SANCHEZ 1241
9 PEREZ 1177
10 BLANC 1157


French names are bolded.


Not even the ones bolded are only French. Vidal is quite pan-Romance. Martin could also be the Spanish Martín without the graphic accent. And Blanc and Fabre are also Catalan and therefore can be found in Spain too. :D

[Tel Errant]

And where are the arab and maghrebi surnames? I would expect those to be in greater numbers. They don't even make the top.

Because it's for the 1966-1990 period.

[Ouistreham]

And where are the arab and maghrebi surnames? I would expect those to be in greater numbers. They don't even make the top.

• Except for the central districts of Marseille (and Brussels), agricultural areas in Corsica, Provence and Languedoc, as well as some suburbs of Lyons and Lille, North-Africans aren't that many in France. Actually I think that their number is decreasing. I was yesterday in Paris and I was surprised not to see any other than a few elderly people (on the other hands the Blacks count by millions).

• Furthermore, Arabic and Berberic surnames are scattered between an infinity of variants (Italian names too) and under different spellings.

[Ouistreham]

Not even the ones bolded are only French. Vidal is quite pan-Romance. Martin could also be the Spanish Martín without the graphic accent. And Blanc and Fabre are also Catalan and therefore can be found in Spain too. :D

Martin is also among the most frequent German and English surnames, and is also quite common in North-Eastern Italy. It's consequently the most common French surname.

Vidal is probably more often Spanish/Catalan than Occitan.

[Ouistreham]

Meanwhile, in Alsace (also for 1966-1990), patronyms remain über-German:

1 MEYER 4815
2 MULLER 4684
3 SCHMITT 3821
4 SCHNEIDER 2464
5 KLEIN 2280
6 WEBER 1693
7 FISCHER 1537
8 MARTIN 1459
9 WEISS 1357
10 WALTER 1268
11 WOLFF 1110
12 WAGNER 1110
13 JUNG 1106
14 SIMON 1101
15 KELLER 1057
16 ZIMMERMANN 1041
17 FRITSCH 1037
18 SCHAEFFER 1000
19 FUCHS 980
20 ROTH 944
21 KIEFFER 942
22 LANG 910
23 BAUER 824
24 WENDLING 805
25 PETER 792
26 HEITZ 789
27 SCHMIDT 781
28 SCHWARTZ 767
29 HEINRICH 725
30 MICHEL 709

On the other hand, in Corsica, it's still all-Italian :

1 ALBERTINI 393
2 LUCIANI 348
3 MATTEI 344
4 ROSSI 305
5 CASANOVA 305
6 POLI 256
7 PAOLI 255
8 SANTONI 241
9 BARTOLI 241
10 LECA 236
11 FILIPPI 222
12 PIETRI 216
13 AGOSTINI 216
14 MARIANI 214
15 ANDREANI 211
16 GRAZIANI 190
17 ORSINI 190
18 NICOLAI 175
19 COSTA 164
20 GIUDICELLI 163
21 POGGI 163
22 CESARI 158
23 MONDOLONI 154
24 COLOMBANI 152
25 SUSINI 150
26 TORRE 147
27 COLONNA 140
28 BATTESTI 136
29 BERNARDINI 134
30 PASQUALINI 134

But in Pays-de-Loire (the region around Nantes), only French (and Breton) surnames!
Interestingly, this region has the highest birth rate in France:

1 MARTIN 5055
2 MOREAU 4415
3 ROUSSEAU 4008
4 RICHARD 3814
5 DAVID 3436
6 DURAND 3136
7 GAUTIER 2997
8 GUERIN 2745
9 MENARD 2537
10 PINEAU 2477
11 BERNARD 2418
12 ROBERT 2409
13 CHEVALIER 2370
14 ROBIN 2322
15 GIRARD 2280
16 POIRIER 2219
17 TESSIER 2194
18 THOMAS 2142
19 GUILLET 2100
20 CHARRIER 2067
21 GARNIER 2044
22 BLANCHARD 2002
23 MARTINEAU 1990
24 LUCAS 1889
25 LEROUX 1843
26 LEROY 1801
27 MORIN 1765
28 PASQUIER 1729
29 DUBOIS 1725
30 SIMON 1706
31 RENAUD 1668
32 LAMBERT 1643
33 MARCHAND 1586
34 MERCIER 1505
35 PAPIN 1489
36 LAUNAY 1482
37 GUILBAUD 1475
38 DUPONT 1428
39 BRIAND 1425
40 GUIBERT 1393
41 GAUDIN 1389
42 DENIS 1379
43 HERVE 1370
44 BARRE 1370
45 MAHE 1365
46 LERAY 1360
47 BELLANGER 1359
48 LEBRETON 1310
49 CHAUVIN 1290
50 HAMON 1235

[Damião de Góis]

By the way, Garcia can be portuguese too.

[Ibericus]

Fucking moors.

[El Palleter]

Sometimes gives the impression that France has always been invaded by foreignYou know, liberté, fraternité, multiculturalité and all of that.

You wouldn't guess who wrote this:


By the way, Southern France ressembles more and more Northern France for the people (apart from southern Euro and north African immigrants) are more and more Northen French immigrants. I live and was born in Provence, none of my 8 great grand-parents are Provençals.

...

Languedoc-Roussillon region for the same period:Well, all appear to be more related to the people of the region than you are.

[AntonyCapolongo]

Snif snif, je pleurerais pour Paris quand j'aurais 5 minutes, je le jure. :)

[Ibericus]

You know, liberté, fraternité, multiculturalité and all of that.

You wouldn't guess who wrote this:

...
Well, all appear to be more related to the people of the region than you are.
Good point. Southern Frenchs are more related, genetically and culturally to (northern) spaniards, than they are to Northern French, who are invading them.

[Comte Arnau]

I've taken a look to the surnames in the Pyrenees-Orientales ("French" Catalonia), in that same period (1891-1990). These are, for instance, the first 15 ones:


1 NAUDEILLO
2 TORRAILLES
3 MARTIRIS
4 ESCAPE
5 HOSTAILLE
6 CAZEBLANQUE
7 PIROF
8 BAUXELLS
9 PUITGMAL
10 JOCAVEIL
11 ARATE
12 BALLANEDA
13 CAGLIANO
14 SABIOL
15 ALADERN

Most of them are distorted because of the French spelling, but they are all Catalan (Naudelló, Escapa, Casablanca, Puigmal, Jocavell...). The only ones I can't recognize or am not sure about are Martiris, although it could be a local Catalan one, and Pirof, which doesn't look Catalan at all. Other two don't look Catalan: Arate, which might be Basque, and Cagliano, which is very likely Italian.

I guess that this would change quite a lot if the survey was made now with those born after 1990.

[Ouistreham]

You wouldn't guess who wrote this:
"By the way, Southern France ressembles more and more Northern France for the people (apart from southern Euro and north African immigrants) are more and more Northen French immigrants. I live and was born in Provence, none of my 8 great grand-parents are Provençals."

This is also true. For strategic reasons, aerospace industries (Airbus in Toulouse, Eurocopter near Marseilles) have been moved to the South, a powerful high tech sector is flourishing along the medityerranean coast powerful while a 'Sunbelt effect' attracted lots of wealthy people from the rest of France.

As a result Southern France is a highly stratified society, with upper classes from the North, Italian/Spanish working classes, the Arabs and Gypsies being the lowest of the low of course.

And the genuine Provençaux and other Occitans, where are they? Almost extinct, victims of much too low birthrates. In the bourgeois districts of Nice and Montpellier, as well as in the exclusive suburbs of Marseilles, you virtually can't hear the Southern accent anymore.



I've taken a look to the surnames in the Pyrenees-Orientales ("French" Catalonia), in that same period (1891-1990). These are, for instance, the first 15 ones:


1 NAUDEILLO
2 TORRAILLES
3 MARTIRIS
4 ESCAPE
5 HOSTAILLE
6 CAZEBLANQUE
7 PIROF
8 BAUXELLS
9 PUITGMAL
10 JOCAVEIL
11 ARATE
12 BALLANEDA
13 CAGLIANO
14 SABIOL
15 ALADERN

Most of them are distorted because of the French spelling, but they are all Catalan (Naudelló, Escapa, Casablanca, Puigmal, Jocavell...). The only ones I can't recognize or am not sure about are Martiris, although it could be a local Catalan one, and Pirof, which doesn't look Catalan at all. Other two don't look Catalan: Arate, which might be Basque, and Cagliano, which is very likely Italian.

I guess that this would change quite a lot if the survey was made now with those born after 1990.
Count, you made a little mistake: this doesn't list the most common surnames at birth, but the most specific to the area (those that aren't found elsewhere).

[Ouistreham]

Fucking moors.
Yep, in the Bouches-du-Rhône, it's a real invasion...

In the years 1891-1915, most common surnames at birth were all typically Provençal:
1 MARTIN 1155
2 BLANC 1123
3 MICHEL 933
4 ROUX 932
5 ARNAUD 770
6 FABRE 667
7 GIRAUD 633
8 BERNARD 555
9 BRUN 525
10 BOYER 505

See the difference with 1966-1990 :
1 GARCIA 2068
2 MARTINEZ 1934
3 FERNANDEZ 1883
4 MARTIN 1683
5 SANTIAGO 1627
6 LOPEZ 1375
7 RODRIGUEZ 1262
8 SANCHEZ 1241
9 PEREZ 1177
10 BLANC 1157

Fucking Moors... :)


Snif snif, je pleurerais pour Paris quand j'aurais 5 minutes, je le jure. :)
Garde tes larmes pour Marseille...

[El Palleter]

vGgj6w4Wo00

[Comte Arnau]

Count, you made a little mistake: this doesn't list the most common surnames at birth, but the most specific to the area (those that aren't found elsewhere).

Oops, you're so right. That's why the surnames, even if Catalan, were quite uncommon. I should have figured. :p

These are the 15 I was looking for:

1 VIDAL 528
2 MARTY 462
3 FABRE 411
4 COSTE 355
5 PAGES 290
6 OLIVE 242
7 PUIG 241
8 CALVET 237
9 PUJOL 209
10 GUISSET 207
11 RIBES 202
12 SOLER 188
13 FERRER 186
14 VERGES 186
15 BATLLE 185

All of them Catalan and very common in the Iberian Catalonia too. I wonder if there's any site where the post 1990 period can be consulted.

[Ibericus]

As a result Southern France is a highly stratified society, with upper classes from the North, Italian/Spanish working classes, the Arabs and Gypsies being the lowest of the low of course.

Northern Spain is vastly richer than southern France.

[El Palleter]

As a result Southern France is a highly stratified society, with upper classes from the North, Italian/Spanish working classes, the Arabs and Gypsies being the lowest of the low of course.Yet on a reality check, as far north as Paris, the CEO of big industries such as e.g. Renault is the Brazilian-born Lebanese, Carlos Ghosn.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Carlos_Ghosn_Frontal.jpg/200px-Carlos_Ghosn_Frontal.jpg

Not that Louis Renault looked very northern to me..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Louis_renault_1926.jpg

Édouard Michelin also looks very northern..
http://estaticos03.cache.el-mundo.net/mundodinero/imagenes/2006/05/26/1148669422_0.jpg


The current CEO after his death, Michel Rollier, on the other hand...
http://medias.lepost.fr/ill/2009/07/07/h-20-1611113-1246988465.jpg

Air France's CEO Jean-Cyril Spinetta, the surname sounds Italian to me.

And again, Louis Gallois, CEO of EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company) looks not much of a northerner to me..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Louis_Gallois.jpg

I don't think that I need to go through the French bankers, as we all know what's going to be.


Ouistreham, you are an asset to me. It's too easy to get your true nature out of you. And even easier to make it crumble into pieces.

Only someone as stupid as to be europeanist would have cared. And hopefully he will have learn a lesson. ;)

[Tel Errant]

You wouldn't guess who wrote this:

By the way, Southern France ressembles more and more Northern France for the people (apart from southern Euro and north African immigrants) are more and more Northen French immigrants. I live and was born in Provence, none of my 8 great grand-parents are Provençals.
What I state in that old PM are the same things that I've already stated all along that thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29029), it's not very difficult to guess that I wrote it.
What I would have never imagined however is the extent to which Spanish surnames are overrepresented for the 1966-1990 period especially in the Bouches-du-Rhône and even in the Alpes Maritimes where they make half of the top 10. There must be an explanation as to why Spanish surnames overwhelm so much French and Corsican/Italian surnames in Provence; either many returned home in the last 20 years, or the internal migrations have had a much bigger impact than what I though, or all Spaniard immigrants came from the same region and share the same surnames; but those rankings difficultly reflect the reality as of 2011.



Well, all appear to be more related to the people of the region than you are.
Ah? Do you mean to say that foreign immigrants would have as much (or more) legitimacy to live in the southern coast of France than a Frenchman would have because of a supposed and undefined relatedness?

[Comte Arnau]

What I state in that old PM are the same things that I've already stated all along that thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29029), it's not very difficult to guess that I wrote it.
What I would have never imagined however is the extent to which Spanish surnames are overrepresented for the 1966-1990 period especially in the Bouches-du-Rhône and even in the Alpes Maritimes where they make half of the top 10. There must be an explanation as to why Spanish surnames overwhelm so much French and Corsican/Italian surnames in Provence; either many returned home in the last 20 years, or the internal migrations have had a much bigger impact than what I though, or all Spaniard immigrants came from the same region and share the same surnames; but those rankings don't reflect the reality as of 2011.


Surnames in -ez should not be considered too representative. The amount of Spaniards with surnames ending in -ez is so big, that there is an exaggerated frequency of a series of surnames in comparison with a wider diversity in other languages. Which translates as surnames ending in -ez being on top of most lists, without that meaning that Spaniards are the most numerous community there.

Besides, Latin Americans must be considered too. I was surprised at how many Latin Americans are living in Scandinavia, for instance.

[AntonyCapolongo]

Ah? Do you mean to say that foreign immigrants would have as much (or more) legitimacy to live in the southern coast of France than a Frenchman would have because of a supposed and undefined relatedness?

En tant que Gascon et Provençal, je préfère largement mes amis Espagnols et Italiens que les espèce d'alcooliques et débiles mentaux venus de Picardie et du Nord en général. Et puis quoi qu'il en sois : depuis le début nous partageons plus de proximité raciale avec les Hispaniques et les Italiques qu'avec les barbares.

[Tel Errant]

En tant que Gascon et Provençal, je préfère largement mes amis Espagnols et Italiens que les espèce d'alcooliques et débiles mentaux venus de Picardie et du Nord en général. Et puis quoi qu'il en sois : depuis le début nous partageons plus de proximité raciale avec les Hispaniques et les Italiques qu'avec les barbares.

Et qu'est-ce que tu veux que ça me fasse tes illusions regionalistes d'un pays perdu? D'ailleurs, en quoi un Andalou ou un Sicilien (parce que c'est de ces régions que viennent la majeure partie des immigrants avec qui tu partage cette supposée proximité raciale) sont-ils plus proches d'un Avignonais qu'un Bourguignon ne le serait? Expliques moi ça STP.

[Comte Arnau]

En tant que Gascon et Provençal, je préfère largement mes amis Espagnols et Italiens que les espèce d'alcooliques et débiles mentaux venus de Picardie et du Nord en général. Et puis quoi qu'il en sois : depuis le début nous partageons plus de proximité raciale avec les Hispaniques et les Italiques qu'avec les barbares.

Voilà pourquoi, dans la carte du Pays Romain que j'ai fait pour un autre thread, la capitale n'était pas en Italie ou en Ibérie, mais à Avignon, en Provence, le véritable centre névralgique. :)

[Ibericus]

Et qu'est-ce que tu veux que ça me fasse tes illusions regionalistes d'un pays perdu? D'ailleurs, en quoi un Andalou ou un Sicilien (parce que c'est de ces régions que viennent la majeure partie des immigrants avec qui tu partage cette supposée proximité raciale) sont-ils plus proches d'un Avignonais qu'un Bourguignon ne le serait? Expliques moi ça STP.
The andalusians are FAR more close to french than sicilians, genetically.
The andalusians are very different from sicilians. Stop inventing things.

[Tel Errant]

The andalusians are FAR more close to french than sicilians, genetically.
The andalusians are very different from sicilians. Stop inventing things.

You must be lost in translation, that has nothing to do with what I said.

[El Palleter]

There must be an explanation as to why Spanish surnames overwhelm so much French and Corsican/Italian surnames in Provence; either many returned home in the last 20 years, or the internal migrations have had a much bigger impact than what I though, or all Spaniard immigrants came from the same region and share the same surnames; but those rankings difficultly reflect the reality as of 2011.Apart from the lack of variability of surnames in some Spanish territories, there are two factors that explain the presence of people of Spanish origin in Southern France:

To the descendents of the bolsheviks from the Frente Popular who were exiled after the Civil War, and which had been fed (as expected) from France via the Front Populaire of French Prime Minister Léon Blum.

Then to the policies of blockade that France imposed over Spain throughout the 40 years of the regime of General Franco, strangling a post-war economy, and which were only eased partially in the late years but just to subject Spain's trade to France.

You can't complain because you are proud of your jacobin republican identity, and those are precisely its policies.


Ah? Do you mean to say that foreign immigrants would have as much (or more) legitimacy to live in the southern coast of France than a Frenchman would have because of a supposed and undefined relatedness?As a principle, neither of them has the legitimacy per se.

But if you break that principle you have to know that you don't break it only for yourself.

In any case, the Middle Ages were a constant flow of Occitans (what you call Southern French) into Spain, and vice versa. My own patria chica, Valencia, was the result of a repopulation of which many were Occitans.

And, if it's about family names, on my mother's side it wouldn't be out of place in Gascony. On my father's side, in Brittany.

You, on the other hand, already made clear that you had no connection. And I fear that no attachment to anything that's not a directive from Paris.

[El Palleter]

Et qu'est-ce que tu veux que ça me fasse tes illusions nationalistes d'un pays perdu?Et voilà! A little change and it's France that you are talking of here!

[AntonyCapolongo]

Et qu'est-ce que tu veux que ça me fasse tes illusions regionalistes d'un pays perdu? D'ailleurs, en quoi un Andalou ou un Sicilien (parce que c'est de ces régions que viennent la majeure partie des immigrants avec qui tu partage cette supposée proximité raciale) sont-ils plus proches d'un Avignonais qu'un Bourguignon ne le serait? Expliques moi ça STP.

D'un pays perdu ? Parce que d'après toi il y a un avenir avec les Parisiens tout aussi envahis que nous, et les sous-hommes Picards et Ch'tis qui ne sont capable qu'à boire, baiser leur cousine et leur chèvres, boire, chômer, boire, et casser les couilles aux autres ?

Et d'ailleurs, oui. Les Andalous sont les descendants de Castillans et de Catalans/Aragonais qui ont repeuplé ce pays après avoir expulsé les Maures. Dans certains parties de l'Andalousie les gens sont mélangés aux Maures et aux Gitans, mais il y a d'autres parties de l'Andalousie où c'est très blanc. Je préfère 100x un Andalou atlanto-méditerranéen, descendant de Race Ibérique et Latine (donc cousins de nous autres Ligures et Ibères du "Sud de la France"), qu'un alcoolique du Nord et de Picardie, un abrutis complet parce que ses ancêtres se sont trop enfilés entre cousins/cousines et frères/soeurs. Hehe. Et même remarque pour les Siciliens, certains descendent de Sicules, de Sicanes, de Grecs, d'autres de Napolitains, de Normands, ou encore de Lombards, d'autres descendent de Berbères, de Carthaginois, de Ligures, de Latins... mais bon ça deviens trop compliqué pour un Français, les Français méprisent la descendance et l'hérédité, ils méprisent tambèn l'héritage Greco-Romain. Les Français sont des débiles et des beaufs. Même sous la torture je nierais toujours votre sois disante légitimité en nos terres. Enfin, je m'égare, tout ça pour dire que nous, les Provençaux, descendants des Ligures, des Grecs et des Latins, nous sommes bien plus proches que vous les descendants de Barbares divers. En puis aussi, arrête avec ta couche de Sicilien et d'Andalou, au final il y a chez nous bien plus de Nord-Italiens (Ligures, Piémontais, Vénitiens), de Catalans, de Corses, d'Aragonais...


Voilà pourquoi, dans la carte du Pays Romain que j'ai fait pour un autre thread, la capitale n'était pas en Italie ou en Ibérie, mais à Avignon, en Provence, le véritable centre névralgique. :)

Ah ? Je n'ai pas vu cette carte, où est-elle ?


The andalusians are FAR more close to french than sicilians, genetically.
The andalusians are very different from sicilians. Stop inventing things.

Maybe. Culturally, and also Racially, Castillans-Andalusians can be close to others Iberians and also close to Ibéro-Romans of "Southern France", like Gascons or Languedocians. But not necessary from Northern French. Andaluz are more respectable than them. :D

[Ouistreham]

Et qu'est-ce que tu veux que ça me fasse tes illusions regionalistes d'un pays perdu?
"Pays perdu" : l'expression est rude mais absolument pertinente.

En un siècle, la région Provence (+Alpes Côte d'Azur) est passée de 1,5 à 4,5 millions d'habitants. Malgré un taux de fécondité négatif. Donc, croissance entièrement due à l'immigration: immigration de proximité depuis le Piémont, immigration plus lointaine depuis l'Italie du Sud, le Maghreb et l'Espagne, l'Arménie, et surtout très forte immigration depuis le reste de la France, qui a fourni aussi bien des cadres aux activités haute technologie qu'un grand nombre de retraités.

Bref, notre Sud est une sorte de Floride, avec ses Hispaniques, ses cadres et retraités WASP (sans oublier les Québecois, qui viennent par centaines de milliers oublier leurs 2 m de neige l'hiver).

Quant aux racines occitanes... Ben désolé pour Cunt Arnauld & Capolongo, c'est mort, complètement mort. Le Sud de la France paye trois siècles de faible fécondité. A Toulon, en dehors de la populace italo-hispano-arabe, l'ethnicité dominante est représentée par les Bretons attirés par la Royale. C'est comme ça !

[Tel Errant]

D'un pays perdu ? Parce que d'après toi il y a un avenir avec les Parisiens tout aussi envahis que nous, et les sous-hommes Picards et Ch'tis qui ne sont capable qu'à boire, baiser leur cousine et leur chèvres, boire, chômer, boire, et casser les couilles aux autres ?

Et d'ailleurs, oui. Les Andalous sont les descendants de Castillans et de Catalans/Aragonais qui ont repeuplé ce pays après avoir expulsé les Maures. Dans certains parties de l'Andalousie les gens sont mélangés aux Maures et aux Gitans, mais il y a d'autres parties de l'Andalousie où c'est très blanc. Je préfère 100x un Andalou atlanto-méditerranéen, descendant de Race Ibérique et Latine (donc cousins de nous autres Ligures et Ibères du "Sud de la France"), qu'un alcoolique du Nord et de Picardie, un abrutis complet parce que ses ancêtres se sont trop enfilés entre cousins/cousines et frères/soeurs. Hehe. Et même remarque pour les Siciliens, certains descendent de Sicules, de Sicanes, de Grecs, d'autres de Napolitains, de Normands, ou encore de Lombards, d'autres descendent de Berbères, de Carthaginois, de Ligures, de Latins... mais bon ça deviens trop compliqué pour un Français, les Français méprisent la descendance et l'hérédité, ils méprisent tambèn l'héritage Greco-Romain. Les Français sont des débiles et des beaufs. Même sous la torture je nierais toujours votre sois disante légitimité en nos terres. Enfin, je m'égare, tout ça pour dire que nous, les Provençaux, descendants des Ligures, des Grecs et des Latins, nous sommes bien plus proches que vous les descendants de Barbares divers. En puis aussi, arrête avec ta couche de Sicilien et d'Andalou, au final il y a chez nous bien plus de Nord-Italiens (Ligures, Piémontais, Vénitiens), de Catalans, de Corses, d'Aragonais...

T'es même pas Provençal Antony, arrête de te faire des films sur les origines et pseudo-connections des uns avec les autres et reviens sur terre: la Provence de Pagnol c'est fini.

[AntonyCapolongo]

C'est pour ça que Dieu as inventé le nettoyage ethnique.

La population de Provence, as été décimée en grande partie lors de la peste, et as été repeuplée grâce aux Ligures (qui se sont adaptés, eux).

Les Blancs adaptables en Provence serrons acceptés. Les animaux (extra-européens et picards), serrons chassés.

Le pire dans tout ça, ce n'est pas que les vieux cons de retraités Bretons viennent s'installer chez nous, c'est qu'en plus de ça ils méprisent notre passé et notre culture, et ils se plaignent pour tout (notre accent, le bruit des cigales même !).

Pour la Catalunya-Nord il n'y a pas vraiment de soucis à ce faire, il y a encore des Catalans, et dans le cas contraire et bien... à l'époque de la Reconquesta, les Catalans des Pyrenées se sont installés en Péninsule Ibérique, et bien cette fois ce sera le contraire qui se produira.

[Tel Errant]

Yet on a reality check, as far north as Paris, the CEO of big industries such as e.g. Renault is the Brazilian-born Lebanese, Carlos Ghosn.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Carlos_Ghosn_Frontal.jpg/200px-Carlos_Ghosn_Frontal.jpg

Not that Louis Renault looked very northern to me..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Louis_renault_1926.jpg

Édouard Michelin also looks very northern..
http://estaticos03.cache.el-mundo.net/mundodinero/imagenes/2006/05/26/1148669422_0.jpg


The current CEO after his death, Michel Rollier, on the other hand...
http://medias.lepost.fr/ill/2009/07/07/h-20-1611113-1246988465.jpg

Air France's CEO Jean-Cyril Spinetta, the surname sounds Italian to me.

And again, Louis Gallois, CEO of EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company) looks not much of a northerner to me..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Louis_Gallois.jpg

Renault and Rollier are northern, Michelin, Gallois and Spinetta (corsican) are southern. I don't see how naming some Cac 40 CEO is of any relevance in regard to the general social stratification of Southern France; and how they look like even less.

The main division in France when it comes to economy has rather been an East/West one anyway, the 'Le Havre-Marseille' line separating a traditionally agriculturian West from an early industrialised and urbanised East.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Carte_d%C3%A9mographique_de_la_France.svg/588px-Carte_d%C3%A9mographique_de_la_France.svg.png

[El Palleter]

Errant, the naming of those top executives is relevant with regards to the stupid comment of Ouistreham. But never mind about it.

The mention of industrialisation is interesting. There seems to be some correlation between the regions where early industrialisation took place, and those regions where feudalism and its system of serfdom was tighter.

I didn't know about France in particular, with respect to the north/south divide. So I've checked and, as I suspected,


France, as the central homeland of European feudalism, can be dealt with relatively briefly. Northern France, in effect, always conformed more closely to the archetypal feudal system than any other region of the continent. The collapse of the Carolingian Empire in the 9th century was followed by a welter of internecine warfare and Norse invasions. Amidst generalized anarchy and insecurity, there occurred a universal fragmentation and localization of noble power, which became concentrated into selected strong-points and castles around the country, in conditions which accelerated the dependence of a peasantry exposed to constant threat of Viking or Muslim rapine. Feudal power was thus pressed singularly close to the soil in this bleak epoch. Harsh seigneurial jurisdicitions over an enserfed rural mass, which had lost any popular courts of its own, prevailed virtually everywhere; although the South, where the impress of Antiquity was greater, was somewhat less feudalized, with a greater proportion of noble estates held outright rather than in fief, and a larger non-dependent peasant population. The more organic character of Northern feudalism ensured it the economic and political initiative throughout the Middle Ages.


Passages from antiquity to feudalism
Perry Anderson

northern French society evolved through a feudal system of serfdom much stricter and larger than in southern France.

This is interesting to compare with Spain where, the lack of a proper feudal system in Castile, contrasted with the feudal regime of subjugation of the peasantry in Catalonia:


Yet, though the Cortes of Castilla-León were historically the oldest in Europe, the did not become the most strongly institutionalized or effective. The root of this failure lay in the structure and values of Castilian society, which was composed of aristocrats and peasants with an ethos of honor and military expansion. At no time during the Castilian expansion of the late Middle Ages did Castilian society develop a productive urban economy or an economic middle class proportionate to the kingdom's size or military significance. Castilian society enjoyed an elaborate network of laws and local fueros (though in many cases steadily diminished in practice), and to that extent nourished a clear-cut tradition of Castilian liberties, but these functioned within a rural society under strong overarching royal sovereignty. The towns and diversified interests to be found in other western European kindgoms were inadequate in Castilla to develop an overall system of constitutional representative government –even for the upper classes– as distinct from the network of local privileges and exemptions guaranteed by royal law as fueros.


Basque nationalism
Stanley G. Payne


Later, industrialisation took root in the regions where it found a population ready to serve as labour, which coincided with those where feudal serfdom had been stronger. As was the case of Northern France or, in Spain, Catalonia.

That's why I find it curious that you put an emphasis on industrialisation, obviously ignoring the negative aspects of it as an extension of feudalistic serfdom.

[Ouistreham]

I don't see how naming some Cac 40 CEO is of any relevance in regard to the general social stratification of Southern France
— Discussing "Chateaubriand"'s ramblings is like arguing with an Arab: just pointless. This moron has his own surrealistic logic.


There seems to be some correlation between the regions where early industrialisation took place, and those regions where feudalism and its system of serfdom was tighter.
Northern French society evolved through a feudal system of serfdom much stricter and larger than in southern France.
— It's just the opposite, dumbass!
The peasants of Normandy, Picardy and of the Northern tip of France always were free men, they never were submitted to serfdom. Where did the industrial revolution start in France?
In the Middle-Ages, serfdom in France was nowhere harsher than in Gascony and Languedoc — the regions that entered industrialization only thanks to entrepreneurs and investement from the North.
In Germany, Saxony also ignored serfdom. German industrialism started there.
In Italy, only one region didn't experience serfdom: Lombardy. Enough said!


Amidst generalized anarchy and insecurity, there occurred a universal fragmentation and localization of noble power, which became concentrated into selected strong-points and castles around the country, in conditions which accelerated the dependence of a peasantry exposed to constant threat of Viking or Muslim rapine.
— Crétin, ever wondered why the underdeveloped part of Spain is called Castilla?

The prerequisite for any industrial take-off is well known: literacy, and an agriculture productive enough to maintain an important non-agricultural workforce. This could initially be achieved only within societies made of free peasants.

No need to elaborate, everyone knows.

The worst possible social environment was the agricultural model based on latifundia, like in Spain, in Southern Italy or in Eastern Europe. This model could support brilliant urban cultures (Naples, Sevilla) but didn't make possible any early industrialization, the bulk of the people consisting in illiterate day labourers (peones, jornaleros) living in abject poverty.

Still in the early 30's, literacy rate in Spain was just 50%, lower than in Normandy in the 17th century!

[Comte Arnau]

Quant aux racines occitanes... Ben désolé pour Cunt Arnauld & Capolongo, c'est mort, complètement mort.

Au moins en ce qui concerne à moi, Wee Stray Ham, je peux dire que nous, les catalans, et les gascons de la Vallée d'Aran aussi, en tant que occitans ou frères jumeaux des occitans, sommes bien loin d'être morts.

[Tel Errant]

That's why I find it curious that you put an emphasis on industrialisation, obviously ignoring the negative aspects of it as an extension of feudalistic serfdom.

I mention it as economically it is significative of an East/West divide other than the usual North/South one people (like you did) assume France is always divided into. And Industrialisation and the economic take off of France during the Restauration started thanks to the demographic growth that extended the domestic consumer market and induced the rural flight; it has nothing to do with feodal strutures.

[WOOHP]

Poor France.
If the top 10 list of births were dominated by Portuguese/Spanish surnames between 1966 and 1990 it would mean that today, most of the White people we see in Occitania are of Iberian ancestry and not real Occitans.

Btw, which is the Occitan region today with the highest amount of natives?

[Smaug]

/\ Americans :laugh:

[Vasconcelos]

Poor France.
If the top 10 list of births were dominated by Portuguese/Spanish surnames between 1966 and 1990 it would mean that today, most of the White people we see are of Iberian ancestry and not real Occitans.

What a fucking ignorant and provocative trollish Americunt.

[Damião de Góis]

Poor France.
If the top 10 list of births were dominated by Portuguese/Spanish surnames between 1966 and 1990 it would mean that today, most of the White people we see are of Iberian ancestry and not real Occitans.

Btw, which is the Occitan region today with the highest amount of natives?

What Occitans? This thread was supposed to be about Île-de-France region.

[WOOHP]

What Occitans? This thread was supposed to be about Île-de-France region.


Languedoc-Roussillon region for the same period:

1 GARCIA 4469
2 MARTINEZ 4014
3 LOPEZ 2679
4 SANCHEZ 2605
5 MARTIN 2221
6 PEREZ 2183
7 VIDAL 2129
8 FABRE 1572
9 FERNANDEZ 1559
10 RODRIGUEZ 1490

[Damião de Góis]

^ Yeah, some portuguese invasion in Occitania...

[WOOHP]

^ Yeah, some portuguese invasion in Occitania...

You're right it's more like a Castilian invasion of SW Occitania.

[WOOHP]

Surname of the babies born in Occitania between 1966 and 1990.

Midi-Pyrénées:


1
1 GARCIA 2458
2 MARTY 2184
3 FABRE 1965
4 MARTINEZ 1638
5 VIDAL 1585
6 MARTIN 1559
7 DURAND 1393
8 SANCHEZ 1387
9 BOUSQUET 1362
10 LOPEZ 1308
11 PEREZ 1178
12 ROQUES 1148
13 FAURE 1138
14 FERNANDEZ 1137
15 BLANC 1126

Provence-Alpes-Cotes-D'Azur.


entre 1966 et 1990
1 MARTIN 4145
2 GARCIA 4059
3 MARTINEZ 3726
4 BLANC 3011
5 FERNANDEZ 2935
6 LOPEZ 2736
7 ROUX 2583
8 SANCHEZ 2489
9 PEREZ 2353
10 MICHEL 2277
11 SANTIAGO 2210
12 BERNARD 2178
13 RODRIGUEZ 1985
14 GOMEZ 1717
15 ARNAUD 1671

[WOOHP]

Auvergene


1 MARTIN 2115
2 FAURE 1297
3 DA SILVA 1132
4 ROUX 1129
5 ROCHE 1080
6 BOYER 1045
7 BERNARD 965
8 BRUN 905
9 BONNET 902
10 LAURENT 899
11 ROBERT 870
12 GIRAUD 837
13 FOURNIER 827
14 VIDAL 766
15 FERNANDES 736
16 MICHEL 721
17 FERREIRA 695
18 DUMAS 684
19 PEREIRA 678
20 BLANC 673

Aquitaine


1 MARTIN 2564
2 GARCIA 2105
3 DUPUY 1432
4 BERNARD 1394
5 LABORDE 1392
6 LALANNE 1371
7 LOPEZ 1362
8 FAURE 1341
9 MARTINEZ 1323
10 SANCHEZ 1288
11 LACOSTE 1219
12 GONZALEZ 1099
13 DUPOUY 1080
14 MOREAU 1075
15 ROBERT 1024
16 PEREZ 1023
17 FERNANDEZ 1014
18 LABAT 1009
19 PETIT 994
20 DURAND 994

[WOOHP]

/\ Americans :laugh:

What's your issue Spic?

Languedoc-Roussillon is the worst region. Between the period 1966 and 1990, the vast majority of all newborn babies were at least half Iberian.



1 GARCIA 4469
2 MARTINEZ 4014
3 LOPEZ 2679
4 SANCHEZ 2605
5 MARTIN 2221
6 PEREZ 2183
7 VIDAL 2129
8 FABRE 1572
9 FERNANDEZ 1559
10 RODRIGUEZ 1490
11 DURAND 1330
12 GONZALEZ 1184
13 RUIZ 1139
14 BONNET 1095
15 GIMENEZ 1050
16 GOMEZ 1045
17 ROUX 1007
18 PAGES 966
19 MICHEL 953
20 NAVARRO 934

[Vasconcelos]

What's your issue Spic?

Using racials slurs agains a moderator, good job.

[Damião de Góis]

What's your issue Spic?


You really need to control your immigrant behaviour.

[WOOHP]

You really need to control your immigrant behaviour.

Says the Portuguese. It's not like you Iberians invaded France, no no.

[Damião de Góis]

Says the Portuguese. It's not like you Iberians invaded France, no no.

Says the portuguese from Portugal, yes. The alien in other countries here is you, and you are displaying their typical behaviour. There is a reason why people don't like immigrants...

[WOOHP]

Says the portuguese from Portugal, yes. The alien in other countries here is you, and you are displaying their typical behaviour. There is a reason why people don't like immigrants...

People? Swedish people don't hate Americans, nonetheless Americans of almost entirely Scandinavian ancestry because of obvious reasons.
But you maybe meant that Portuguese people don't like immigrants living in Sweden?

However this discussion is not necessary. I've only been here a couple of years and I'm not even gonna stay here.

[Damião de Góis]

People? Swedish people don't hate Americans, nonetheless Americans of almost entirely Scandinavian ancestry because of obvious reasons.
But you maybe meant that Portuguese people don't like immigrants living in Sweden?

No, i meant Europeans in general don't like immigrants. As an immigrant yourself you should know this.

In fact, you are here bitching about Iberian immigrants in France, while being an immigrant yourself in Sweden. How stupid is that?

[Comte Arnau]

French, Occitan and Catalan surnames are more diverse, so even the figures of a common surname like Martin/Marty/Martí can't compare to any of the top ten Spanish -ez's. The figures, for France or for any country, are then distorted.

Imagine a classroom of 30 students where 4 students are Spanish and called Lopez. If no French surname is repeated (or only one is, say, Michel), you'll have a top list like this:

1 - LOPEZ (4)
2 - MICHEL (2)
3 - ROUX (1)
4 - DURAND (1)
...

^ To ignorants, that would give the wrong impression that Spaniards are a majority in the classroom.

[WOOHP]

No, i meant Europeans in general don't like immigrants. As an immigrant yourself you should know this.
And I telling you that as an White American I'm not disliked by Swedes(or other Scandos ofc)

In fact, you are here bitching about Iberian immigrants in France, while being an immigrant yourself in Sweden. How stupid is that?
Because it's not the same situation.

[WOOHP]

Imagine a classroom of 30 students where 4 students are Spanish and called Lopez. If no French surname is repeated (or only one is, say, Michel), you'll have a top list like this:
Yeah, cause that would be very common right?

1 - LOPEZ (4)
2 - MICHEL (2)
3 - ROUX (1)
4 - DURAND (1)
...
That's why I posted a list of the 20 most common surnames


^ To ignorants, that would give the wrong impression that Spaniards are a majority in the classroom.
I'm pretty sure that Iberian students were a majority in alot of classrooms, during that time.

[Damião de Góis]

Because it's not the same situation.

You are basically an immigrant bitching about immigrants in other countries. Pathetic.

[WOOHP]

You are basically an immigrant bitching about immigrants in other countries. Pathetic.
Yeah an Immigrant for a couple of years until I move back, not what the Iberians did or are doing right now.

Second of all, no one would bother some Iberian immigrants in Occitania but they invaded like crazy. The region of Languedoc-Roussillon went from being Occitan to almost fully Iberian in just 30-40 years.

[Comte Arnau]

Besides, that's hardly an invasion, with Occitan surnames like Fabre, Vidal, Marty among the first ones. In Catalonia, you have to scroll down the first 15 to get the first Catalan surnames, THAT is an invasion.

[Vasconcelos]

Yeah an Immigrant for a couple of years until I move back, not what the Iberians did or are doing right now.

Second of all, no one would bother some Iberian immigrants in Occitania but they invaded like crazy. The region of Languedoc-Roussillon went from being Occitan to almost fully Iberian in just 30-40 years.

Because you know all about "Llenguadoc-Rosselló" and what their people thinks. I bet you've been there loads of times.

[WOOHP]

Besides, that's hardly an invasion, with Occitan surnames like Fabre, Vidal, Marty among the first ones. In Catalonia, you have to scroll down the first 15 to get the first Catalan surnames, THAT is an invasion.
Yes, poor Catalonia is a different story.

Because you know all about "Llenguadoc-Rosselló" and what their people thinks. I bet you've been there loads of times.
I've spent more time in the neighbouring region, Provence-Alpes-Cotes-D'Azur. But I'm familiar enough with SW Occitan people to know that they did not request an invasion of Castilian/Portuguese people.

[Damião de Góis]

I've spent more time in the neighbouring region, Provence-Alpes-Cotes-D'Azur. But I'm familiar enough with SW Occitan people to know that they did not request an invasion of Castilian/Portuguese people.

What invasion of Portuguese people in Occitania? All you are showing here are Castillian surnames.

[Vasconcelos]

You clearly don't know shit.

All you do is provoke and troll Iberians because fuck knows.

[WOOHP]

What invasion of Portuguese people in Occitania? All you are showing here are Castillian surnames.

Mixed up Ill-de-France with Occitania this time. You're right it's mostly Castilian names.

[WOOHP]

You clearly don't know shit.

All you do is provoke and troll Iberians because fuck knows.

Fine, be that way.

[Ibericus]

Yeah an Immigrant for a couple of years until I move back, not what the Iberians did or are doing right now.

Second of all, no one would bother some Iberian immigrants in Occitania but they invaded like crazy. The region of Languedoc-Roussillon went from being Occitan to almost fully Iberian in just 30-40 years.
Anyways, Roussillon is a stolen territory by France in the treaty of Pyrenees. And it's bullshit that it went from bein Occitan to fully Iberian.

[Prince Carlo]

Of course Corsica doesn't belong in France. Even kids know it.

[WOOHP]

Anyways, Roussillon is a stolen territory by France in the treaty of Pyrenees. And it's bullshit that it went from bein Occitan to fully Iberian.

Yeah, I bet it was Rousillon that was invaded by Castilians and not Languedoc, Midi-Pyrénées, Aquitaine and Provence :picard1:

[Comte Arnau]

It was invaded by the French in the first place. Still is.

[WOOHP]

It was invaded by the French in the first place. Still is.

It's predominantly Catalan nowadays, probably more Catalan than Spanish Catalonia.

[Comte Arnau]

It's predominantly Catalan nowadays, probably more Catalan than Spanish Catalonia.

Identity loses its core if they keep shifting from Catalan to French.

I wasn't talking only about Northern Catalonia, though, but about the whole of Occitania.

[WOOHP]

Identity loses its core if they keep shifting from Catalan to French.

I wasn't talking only about Northern Catalonia, though, but about the whole of Occitania.
This has nothing to do with our discussion. Occitania is French, they are equally French as people from Normandie or Picardie. They have always been considered French, but not Oíl speaking.

Back to topic: I wonder if the Iberians left France after the fall of Franco?

[Lusos]

Poor France.
If the top 10 list of births were dominated by Portuguese/Spanish surnames between 1966 and 1990 it would mean that today, most of the White people we see in Occitania are of Iberian ancestry and not real Occitans.

Btw, which is the Occitan region today with the highest amount of natives?

Poor America birth rates dominated by Negros.

[WOOHP]

Poor America birth rates dominated by Negros.

No actually even in America, Hispanics are those with the highest birth rate.

[Comte Arnau]

This has nothing to do with our discussion. Occitania is French, they are equally French as people from Normandie or Picardie. They have always been considered French, but not Oíl speaking.

False.

But it is way off topic, that is true.

[WOOHP]

False.

But it is way off topic, that is true.

Not false. But lets stop this now.

This thread is about Spanish and Portuguese people immigrating to certain parts of France. The question now is, are these Iberians still there or did they return to Spain/Portugal.

[Damião de Góis]

Not false. But lets stop this now.

This thread is about Spanish and Portuguese people immigrating to certain parts of France. The question now is, are these Iberians still there or did they return to Spain/Portugal.

I hope they don't return. I've seen those Jean-Pierres in Algarve and they are very annoying.

[WOOHP]

I hope they don't return. I've seen those Jean-Pierres in Algarve and they are very annoying.

Jean-Pierres da Silva types?

You don't like the Portuguese living in France? Why?

[Damião de Góis]

Jean-Pierres da Silva types?

You don't like the Portuguese living in France? Why?

I don't have an opinion on their lives in France. When they return (on vacations or whatever), they are foreigners. The vast majority don't speak the language and have foreign first names. And yes, they are annoying from what i've observed.

[WOOHP]

I don't have an opinion on their lives in France. When they return (on vacations or whatever), they are foreigners. The vast majority don't speak the language and have foreign first names. And yes, they are annoying from what i've observed.

So they assimilated into the rude Parisian culture?

[Comte Arnau]

Not false. But lets stop this now.

This thread is about Spanish and Portuguese people immigrating to certain parts of France. The question now is, are these Iberians still there or did they return to Spain/Portugal.


Not false, blatantly false. But let's stop, ok.


I don't know how many Catalans there are in France (other than in Northern Catalonia, of course). But I know that the French in Catalonia are the 9th country of origin in the immigration figures.

1. Marroc 239.218 20,16
2. Romania 106.030 8,93
3. Equador 59.453 5,01
4. Bolívia 50.188 4,23
5. Xina 49.612 4,18
6. Itàlia 49.111 4,14
7. Pakistan 47.490 4,00
8. Colòmbia 41.958 3,54
9.França 33.875 2,85
10. Perú 30.873 2,60

I frankly don't expect them to go back to France. And I don't think that any Catalans (or half-Catalans) in France, like minister Valls or actress Astrid Bergès are coming back either.

[Damião de Góis]

So they assimilated into the rude Parisian culture?

I don't know. All i know is that they are annoying outsiders. This opinion is generalized and not just mine from what i've seen.

[Ibericus]

Not false, blatantly false. But let's stop, ok.


I don't know how many Catalans there are in France (other than in Northern Catalonia, of course). But I know that the French in Catalonia are the 9th country of origin in the immigration figures.

1. Marroc 239.218 20,16
2. Romania 106.030 8,93
3. Equador 59.453 5,01
4. Bolívia 50.188 4,23
5. Xina 49.612 4,18
6. Itàlia 49.111 4,14
7. Pakistan 47.490 4,00
8. Colòmbia 41.958 3,54
9.França 33.875 2,85
10. Perú 30.873 2,60

I frankly don't expect them to go back to France. And I don't think that any Catalans (or half-Catalans) in France, like minister Valls or actress Astrid Bergès are coming back either.
Especially in northern Catalonia there is a invasion of French people. I was recently in the province of Alt Empurdà and was full of French people.

[WOOHP]

Not false, blatantly false. But let's stop, ok.

No, not at all. Occitans and Oílitans are two very close groups both ethnically and culturally. I mean there is a reason to why Occitans and Oíl people form one nation, and why there is not a single popular Occitan Independence party. On the contrary to Catalonia and Padania.

[Comte Arnau]

Especially in northern Catalonia there is a invasion of French people. I was recently in the province of Alt Empurdà and was full of French people.

Well, many might have been there temporarily, coming for what you can imagine. :D

Second-generation French in Catalonia blend in perfectly, though. Many first-generation French too, despite their typical mannerisms.

[Comte Arnau]

No, not at all. Occitans and Oílitans are two very close groups both ethnically and culturally. I mean there is a reason to why Occitans and Oíl people form one nation, and why there is not a single popular Occitan Independence party. On the contrary to Catalonia and Padania.

Didn't you say we'd better not discuss it?

Occitans have traditionally been closer to the Catalans and Piedmontese from an ethnocultural point of view.

The reason why they form one nation? The battle of Muret was a first key point, for instance. With the excuse of a crusade against the Cathar heresy, they invaded the Languedoc and forced it into the French crown. Strong historical centralist policies made the rest.

Not a single party? One, for instance:

http://www.p-n-o.org/

[Lusos]

I don't know. All i know is that they are annoying outsiders. This opinion is generalized and not just mine from what i've seen.

And It's not only the "French" ones.

Especially annoying when they speak that shit broken "Portuguese"mixed with French.And It seem's they also have a tendency to speak loud.

[WOOHP]

Didn't you say we'd better not discuss it?

Occitans have traditionally been closer to the Catalans and Piedmontese from an ethnocultural point of view.

The reason why they form one nation? The battle of Muret was a first key point, for instance. With the excuse of a crusade against the Cathar heresy, they invaded the Languedoc and forced it into the French crown. Strong historical centralist policies made the rest.

Not a single party? One, for instance:

http://www.p-n-o.org/
A battle my ass. It's far more complicated than that, there has been ethnical, cultural and political reasons to why Occitania now forms a country with Oíl speaking France.

What I meant is that the situation cannot be compared with Padania or Catalonia, as Occitans are not equally eager to liberate themselves from Paris.

[Comte Arnau]

A battle my ass. It's far more complicated than that, there has been ethnical, cultural and political reasons to why Occitania now forms a country with Oíl speaking France.

That battle was an important starting point, as Occitanists themselves remember, regarding Simon de Montfort as the main executioner of the conquest of Occitania. I know it's far more complicated than that, but it was clearly not the result of a happy surrender. Truth is, no ethnicity loves to cease existing of their own free will.

In fact, that battle was also important for us Catalans, even if it's hardly ever mentioned here, as it made us change our northwards-looking politics and start facing southwards. Without that battle, who knows if Valencia and Majorca would have ever spoken Catalan.


What I meant is that the situation cannot be compared with Padania or Catalonia, as Occitans are not equally eager to liberate themselves from Paris.

Well, Catalonia, Scotland and maybe Flanders are at a different level now, that's true, you can't expect all stateless nations in Europe to be at the same position. Padania is a different thing. But what you're saying now is quite different from what you said before.

Where there is a stateless ethnicity, there is a will by some to be independent, even if they are a minority.

[Slycooper]

If Portuguese don't leave Portugal there would only be like 11 million Portuguese in the world.

[Albion]

(sans oublier les Québecois, qui viennent par centaines de milliers oublier leurs 2 m de neige l'hiver).

:D A Voltaire quote. How are Quebecois seen in France anyway? They're not purely French, do French mind when they settle in France?


Quant aux racines occitanes... Ben désolé pour Cunt Arnauld & Capolongo, c'est mort, complètement mort. Le Sud de la France paye trois siècles de faible fécondité. A Toulon, en dehors de la populace italo-hispano-arabe, l'ethnicité dominante est représentée par les Bretons attirés par la Royale. C'est comme ça !

I thought Brits overwhelmingly resided in the north?


The peasants of Normandy, Picardy and of the Northern tip of France always were free men, they never were submitted to serfdom.

Unlike English :( (except Kent).

[Atlantic Islander]

Common French and Flemish surnames in Portugal: Bettencourt, Goulart, Drummond, Dutra (altered from Utra), Jaques, etc. Shall I continue? :ranger: