How much ancient Persian dna modern persians have?

[thenewestmember]

Today's Persians heavily mixed with other ethnics

[Kyp]

around 90% genetic continuity I would say.

[thenewestmember]

around 90% I would say.

But they heavily mixed with Kavkaz and Turkmens?

[Ion Basescul]

Today's Persians heavily mixed with other ethnics

It depends on what do you mean by Persian. Is it Persian as in the Indo-Europeans who brought the language, or is it Persian as in the people who inhabited that region over time?
If it's the latter then most Persian ethnics are almost 100% local.

[Kyp]

But they heavily mixed with Kavkaz and Turkmens?

Do you mean from Persian Achaemenid times or Early Aryan times?

[thenewestmember]

Do you mean from Persian Achaemenid times or Early Aryan times?

Persian Achaemenid times

[thenewestmember]

It depends on what do you mean by Persian. Is it Persian as in the Indo-Europeans who brought the language, or is it Persian as in the people who inhabited that region over time?
If it's the latter then most Persian ethnics are almost 100% local.

It's latter but they heavily mixed with Kavkaz and Turkmens?

[Kyp]

Persian Achaemenid times

Yes definetly around 90% the same. Maybe even more than that.

[thenewestmember]

Yes definetly around 90% the same. Maybe even more than that.

Persians on Quora said they heavily mixed with other ethnics

[Kyp]

Persians on Quora said they heavily mixed with other ethnics

I think Turkmen influence is ranging probably from 5 to 10 percent on avergage for Persians. But quite an amount of Turkic DNA isn't foreign to Iranians that's why it doesn't change much of the DNA.

Genetic continuity is probably +90%

Arabs or other ethnics didn't influence Persians probably at all. Caucasian influence is too recent and limited.

[thenewestmember]

It depends on what do you mean by Persian. Is it Persian as in the Indo-Europeans who brought the language, or is it Persian as in the people who inhabited that region over time?
If it's the latter then most Persian ethnics are almost 100% local.


I think Turkmen influence is ranging probably from 5 to 10 percent on avergage for Persians. But quite an amount of Turkic DNA isn't foreign to Iranians that's why it doesn't change much of the DNA.

Genetic continuity is probably +90%

Arabs or other ethnics didn't influence Persians probably at all. Caucasian influence is too recent and limited.

What about Kavkaz? I think Persians also very mixed with Kavkaz

[Kyp]

What about Kavkaz? I think Persians also very mixed with Kavkaz

No they are not mixed with Kavkaz, but there is genetic similarity from Neolithic times onwards.
Mixing did happen in small amount. Also Caspian Iranians who are one of the most native people of Iran share even bigger similarity with Kavkaz. But they are not classified as Persian historically.

[Leto]

They are mostly native to Iran. Some traces of Asian and African DNA can be found occasionally though.

[Dr_Maul]

Depends on where you are from, people in the persian heartland like yazd isfahan etc. are likely 90-100% Local but in different areas like khorasan for example you have some turkmen mix and in the iraq border region ppl have some semitic etc

[Oghuz]

Persians identity and genetics came with IE migrations into Iran (Persis area) in Ist Millennium BC. They came into Iran with other NW Iranic group Medes who formed Median empire. Those who came assimilated indigenous population (Kassi, Elamite, and non iranic manneans).

I think what OP means is the pre IE migration Iranians like neolithic, bronze age ones. Every modern day Iranian ethnicity (including neighboring nations) has a proper proportion of neolithic Iranians as well.

[thenewestmember]

Depends on where you are from, people in the persian heartland like yazd isfahan etc. are likely 90-100% Local but in different areas like khorasan for example you have some turkmen mix and in the iraq border region ppl have some semitic etc

Do you have Semitic admix? I ask because it says Ethnicity: West Iranian

[Oghuz]

Depends on where you are from, people in the persian heartland like yazd isfahan etc. are likely 90-100% Local but in different areas like khorasan for example you have some turkmen mix and in the iraq border region ppl have some semitic etc

Semite J1 is missing among Iranics even the ones neighboring Iraq.

[Oghuz]

It's latter but they heavily mixed with Kavkaz and Turkmens?

actually Persians never mixed with anyone because of geography. Zagros and Alborz ranges have been saving them for millennia.

Look at the genetic continuity like upto 95 % since iron age when IE migration happened and Iranic empires emerge in Iran.

https://i.imgur.com/GJOZYEd.png

[Ion Basescul]

What about Kavkaz? I think Persians also very mixed with Kavkaz

https://i.imgur.com/fT4Kbji.png

https://i.imgur.com/i3aShHG.png

[thenewestmember]

actually Persians never mixed with anyone because of geography. Zagros and Alborz ranges have been saving them for millennia.

Look at the genetic continuity like upto 95 % since iron age when IE migration happened and Iranic empires emerge in Iran.

https://i.imgur.com/GJOZYEd.png

but they score 5% Mongoloid?

[Kyp]

but they score 5% Mongoloid?

Turkmen influence is definetly there. 3-10% for Persians. Probably even more in Khorasan.

[Babak]

Iranians are roughly 70-75% native to Iran with additional Steppe admixture. Foreign invaders barely left an impact on the general population.

[Negah]

Turkmen influence is definetly there. 3-10% for Persians. Probably even more in Khorasan.

Khorasan, Gorgan, and northwestern Iran.

[Kyp]

Khorasan, Gorgan, and northwestern Iran.

I think in other regions too. In small amounts.
These are some averages I've gathered:

Yazd & Kerman,= 3.11% Mongoloid
Iran_Mazandaran= 1.5% Mongoloid
Iranian_Fars = 2.86% Mongoloid
Iran_Khorasan = 7.72% Mongoloid

Obviously Mongoloid isn't equal to Turkmen ancestry. So it's probably higher.

[Negah]

Persia/Iran is the only component in the ancient world to survive through the classical era

Continuity of Iran/Persia in unique

[Dr_Maul]

Do you have Semitic admix? I ask because it says Ethnicity: West Iranian


I have not taken a DNA test but my paternal grandmother is a Kurd (Iraqi) and I have read that Kurd's neolithic DNA is semitic so that's why I put it, I am not sure if that is reflected on my DNA however

[Dr_Maul]

Semite J1 is missing among Iranics even the ones neighboring Iraq.

Maybe with Ethnic persians but people like Kurds and western Lurs (those on the Iraqi border) do have Semitic genes also the literal Iraqis living on the other side (they are not Iranic but a lot of them carry Iranic genes as well)

[Synapsid]

90% Iron age Iranian +/- 10% Turkic/Mongolic

[SharpFork]

Persia/Iran is the only component in the ancient world to survive through the classical era

Continuity of Iran/Persia in unique
No it's not, same continuity exists elsewhere.

[Bosniensis]

They are over 90%+ 1000 B.C. Persians

[SharpFork]

I would say 60-90% continuity depending on the region, though we don't have enough samples from everywhere from Iran to say exactly.

[Negah]

No it's not, same continuity exists elsewhere.

You are Wrong

Such as?

[SharpFork]

You are Wrong

Such as?
Basques, Scandinavians, most of the Caucasus, Arabia, Maghreb, among other places.

[Negah]

Basques, Scandinavians, most of the Caucasus, Arabia, Maghreb, among other places.

Are you serious about your answer? What are you talking about? you must be trolling. :picard1:

[SharpFork]

Are you serious about your answer? What are you talking about? you must be trolling. :picard1:

Can you stop throwing random one liners, what's your problem with my answer?

[Zoro]

90% Iron age Iranian +/- 10% Turkic/Mongolic

You seem more knowledgeable than the average user here. 10% +/- seems in the ballpark for Kurds and Western Iranians since the Iron Age and of course more since the Chalcolithic but I'm curious how you came up with this number.

[PaleoEuropean]

It depends on what do you mean by Persian. Is it Persian as in the Indo-Europeans who brought the language, or is it Persian as in the people who inhabited that region over time?
If it's the latter then most Persian ethnics are almost 100% local.

The Persian language comes from the South West has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.

[Zoro]

The Persian language comes from the South West has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.

I think you're confusing modern and ancient Persian. The language you refer to was the Elamite language which was very different from Middle Persian and went extinct around 300 BC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamite_language

It appears to have been a dravidian language and some think that they migrated east and introduced it to the Indus Valley area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages

[PaleoEuropean]

I think you're confusing modern and ancient Persian. The language you refer to was the Elamite language which was very different from Middle Persian and went extinct around 300 BC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamite_language

It appears to have been a dravidian language and some think that they migrated east and introduced it to the Indus Valley area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages

No modern language is a carbon copy of it's original language, Persian has been influenced by it's neighbors and conquerors. Ancient Arabic vs Modern Arabic is quite different as well, maybe not as much but they were both incredibly simpler. There is a continuum between middle and modern though.

[Synapsid]

You seem more knowledgeable than the average user here. 10% +/- seems in the ballpark for Kurds and Western Iranians since the Iron Age and of course more since the Chalcolithic but I'm curious how you came up with this number.

Through D-test and parsimonious modelling of Iranian groups via f4-tests. Go check Irantalk youtube page, there is an entire video collection where he talks about Iranian genetics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoK1M2rzP6I&list=PLCoNtTig7ttDLBEcGhTu1T7LmsJ7Krp7l

[Synapsid]

You seem more knowledgeable than the average user here. 10% +/- seems in the ballpark for Kurds and Western Iranians since the Iron Age and of course more since the Chalcolithic but I'm curious how you came up with this number.

There was massive changes in the Chacolithic. Even the Arachaemenids have only 70% Continuity with Chacolithic Iranians, because Modern Iranian have Steppe DNA while Cooper age Iranians lack that.

[Zoro]

Through D-test and parsimonious modelling of Iranian groups via f4-tests. Go check Irantalk youtube page, there is an entire video collection where he talks about Iranian genetics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoK1M2rzP6I&list=PLCoNtTig7ttDLBEcGhTu1T7LmsJ7Krp7l

He gets most of it right but he doesn't seem to do his own analysis. For example he is relying on Davidski's PCA to show where present day Iranians cluster wrt ancients. PCA of course is not going to tell you that present day West Iranians are about 10% +/- compared to the IA Iranian as you mention. For one it only displays 2 dimensions of variation and that E. Asian variation will be on a different axis especially in a W. Eurasian PCA such as the one he uses from Davidski.

There are other problems with using PCAs and coordinate based methods such as G-25 because those coordinates fluctuate based on how many samples are in the run and how many samples of each population are in the run. For example if there are 50 steppe MLBA samples and only 5 Iranian Chl samples then the G-25 coordinates and PCA will be different than if it was more correctly done with 50 samples of steppe MLBA and 50 samples of Iran Chl.

In addition to all those problems with PCA one of the biggest is also that PCA doesn't tell you whether the populations cluster in those areas due to old shared drift or new geneflow.

For example 50/50 African/Americans cluster further from Europeans on PCA than W. Asian from Europeans even though they have 50% recent European admixture whereas W. Asians have 0 recent European admixture. So PCA can be deceiving if it's used for recent admixture. Similarly G-25 because it's based on coordinates.

But as you mention f3s and f4s and qpAdm and treemix are tools you should use to figure out the 10%.

[Zoro]

There was massive changes in the Chacolithic. Even the Arachaemenids have only 70% Continuity with Chacolithic Iranians, because Modern Iranian have Steppe DNA while Cooper age Iranians lack that.

Yes steppe and turkic

[Bosniensis]

Modern state Iran is called as such because Ancient Persians called themselves Eranshahr so Eran without Shahr (probably meaning Empire) is translated to modern Iran.

Modern Iranians are Ancient Persians.

They survived.

[gültekin]

Fully Persian result:

Hello everyone, i'm Persian from Fars Province + Tehran and this is my result
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/post-your-mdlp-k11-modern-t70327.html

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/eurogenes-eutest-v2-k15-oracle-results-t59292-s30.html
#PopulationPercent
1 East_Med 27.32
2 West_Asian 20.9
3 Red_Sea 15.54
4 South_Asian 12.6
5 Northeast_African 7.24
6 Sub-Saharan 5.29
7 Eastern_Euro 4.18
8 West_Med 2.29
9 Baltic 1.68
10 North_Sea 1.09
11 Atlantic 0.87
12 Siberian 0.84
13 Oceanian 0.16

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1 Iranian 16.08
2 Syrian 16.69
3 Bedouin 17.34
4 Jordanian 17.59
5 Azeri 17.78
6 Lebanese_Muslim 18.69
7 Turkish 19.05
8 Kurdish 19.23
9 Iranian_Jewish 19.42
10 Palestinian 20.39
11 Assyrian 20.74
12 Turkmen 20.83
13 Kurdish_Jewish 20.99
14 Georgian_Jewish 21.38
15 Egyptian 21.71
16 Samaritan 23.31
17 Ashkenazi 23.37
18 Armenian 23.39
19 Tunisian_Jewish 23.46
20 Libyan_Jewish 23.55

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.8%Bedouin + 40.2%Makrani @ 5.89
2 63.2%Bedouin + 36.8%Brahui @ 6.03
3 57.3%Egyptian + 42.7%Brahui @ 6.13
4 53.8%Egyptian + 46.2%Makrani @ 6.14
5 69.9%Bedouin + 30.1%Kalash @ 6.15
6 57.5%Egyptian + 42.5%Balochi @ 6.23
7 63.5%Bedouin + 36.5%Balochi @ 6.25
8 69.5%Bedouin + 30.5%Pathan @ 6.68
9 70.8%Bedouin + 29.2%Burusho @ 6.74
10 64.9%Bedouin + 35.1%Afghan_Pashtun @ 6.76
11 71.6%Bedouin + 28.4%Sindhi @ 7.1
12 64.6%Egyptian + 35.4%Kalash @ 7.14
13 59%Egyptian + 41%Afghan_Pashtun @ 7.22
14 72.1%Bedouin + 27.9%Punjabi_Jat @ 7.33
15 64.3%Egyptian + 35.7%Pathan @ 8.19
16 71.2%Jordanian + 28.8%Burusho @ 8.32
17 70.6%Jordanian + 29.4%Kalash @ 8.32
18 53.2%Makrani + 46.8%Saudi @ 8.43
19 65.7%Egyptian + 34.3%Burusho @ 8.51
20 70.1%Jordanian + 29.9%Pathan @ 8.52

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Brahui +25% Egyptian +25% Saudi @ 6.424121


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Egyptian + Iranian + Kalash + Saudi @ 5.564787
2 Afghan_Pashtun + Egyptian + Makrani + Saudi @ 5.568418
3 Egyptian + Makrani + Saudi + Tadjik @ 5.736801
4 Burusho + Egyptian + Iranian + Saudi @ 5.756404
5 Egyptian + Makrani + Makrani + Saudi @ 5.775432
6 Afghan_Tadjik + Egyptian + Makrani + Saudi @ 5.967278
7 Brahui + Egyptian + Makrani + Saudi @ 5.971599
8 Balochi + Egyptian + Makrani + Saudi @ 5.974526
9 Afghan_Uzbeki + Egyptian + Makrani + Saudi @ 6.012574
10 Egyptian + Iranian + Pathan + Saudi @ 6.057603
11 Egyptian + Kumyk + Saudi + Sindhi @ 6.148827
12 Egyptian + Kalash + Kurdish + Saudi @ 6.158792
13 Brahui + Egyptian + Saudi + Tadjik @ 6.160092
14 Brahui + Egyptian + Saudi + Turkmen @ 6.174128
15 Burusho + Egyptian + Kurdish + Saudi @ 6.174412
16 Afghan_Pashtun + Brahui + Egyptian + Saudi @ 6.239636
17 Afghan_Tadjik + Brahui + Egyptian + Saudi @ 6.242411
18 Azeri + Egyptian + Kalash + Saudi @ 6.258697
19 Afghan_Uzbeki + Brahui + Egyptian + Saudi @ 6.260593
20 Balochi + Egyptian + Saudi + Turkmen @ 6.341619

[porpozontokonto]

100%

[Bosniensis]

Modern Turks are closer to Persians than Balkanites (on avarage) except maybe Istanbul.

[Oghuz]

but they score 5% Mongoloid?

I would say 1-2 % on average among Persians. I would need to see some published paper rather than what people are posting here.

Parthian region may show more mong % like up to 4 % on average because Khorasan has been the turkic entry point starting from Samanid settling their turkic slaves in the Khorasan region. Those who did not move further inside got assimilated.

Like I said I need to see some paper.

[Oghuz]

Maybe with Ethnic persians but people like Kurds and western Lurs (those on the Iraqi border) do have Semitic genes also the literal Iraqis living on the other side (they are not Iranic but a lot of them carry Iranic genes as well)

Kurds cluster very close to Iranian Azeris both being Medes descendants.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lq4LrrmXA_I/XT-KLZxUfeI/AAAAAAAADCY/TRDLz2_AwdEzl7ZX8n4OK3cjYdhiDZpLwCLcBGAs/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2019-07-29%2Bat%2B6.06.15%2BPM.png

May be some distant ones like Kakai Dizai may show some admixture but thickest majority is NW Iranics.

[Oghuz]

Modern Turks are closer to Persians than Balkanites (on avarage) except maybe Istanbul.

Correct.

Here is how you harass an Anatolian who wants to come across as foreigner to the region.

Look at the admixture (800 individuals from the entire region)... Turkish and Iranians are like almost alike.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g002

https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

[Zoro]

I would say 1-2 % on average among Persians. I would need to see some published paper rather than what people are posting here.

Parthian region may show more mong % like up to 4 % on average because Khorasan has been the turkic entry point starting from Samanid settling their turkic slaves in the Khorasan region. Those who did not move further inside got assimilated.

Like I said I need to see some paper.

It's definitely at least 10% when we compare modern West Iranians to earlier Iranians. Obviously we can't use Gedmatch calculators to compare modern Iranians to ancient ones because they were designed for that. They were designed to compare various modern populations such as Caucasians with S. Asians and Europeans and E. Asians and so on. Because of this we can't use the E. Asian numbers they give because those modern Caucasians and S. Asians and Europeans are themselves E. Asian admixed so they already have E. Asian incorporated in them.

As Synapsid said it's about 10% for W. Iranians compared to ancient W. Iranians and we really have to use f3s, f4s, and qpAdm and Treemix to figure it out (formal statistics) and higher for modern Afghans and NE Iranians.

I posted some Treemix runs that were done for some Iraqi Kurds at https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316931-Treemix-for-Kurds-Armenians-Pashtuns that also indicate this plus Eurasian DNA did a study comparing modern Kurds with ancient Iranians at https://eurasiandna.com/impact-of-the-iron-age-saka-and-scythians-on-south-west-asian-demography/ that support this.

Unfortunately our area is not important enough for western scientists to do detailed studies on that's why I'm thankful to Eurasian DNA. We should not rely on western scientists for detailed studies I think it's our responsibility to learn bioinformatics and do these types of analysis ourselves. We shouldn't rely on foreigners to do it for us.

[Thracian]

Modern Turks are closer to Persians than Balkanites (on avarage) except maybe Istanbul.

That's not true. Even Italians and Central Europeans are closer -did not add them- than Iranians to me. Here is my G25,

Distance to: Thracian_scaled
0.03922165 Gagauz
0.04243246 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04508945 Bulgarian
0.04681872 Albanian
0.04782238 Greek_Thessaly
0.04797165 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04842110 Greek_Izmir
0.05199437 Romanian
0.05274515 Macedonian
0.05874338 Montenegrin
0.05957014 Serbian
0.06187360 Greek_Thrace
0.06256113 Greek_Crete
0.06866868 Greek_Kos
0.06866921 Bosnian
0.07833188 Croatian
0.08250413 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.08292533 Slovenian
0.09964249 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.10238218 Iranian_Fars
0.10266675 Greek_Trabzon
0.10595746 Iranian_Lor
0.10695985 Iranian_Seyyed
0.10699789 Iranian_Jew
0.12360324 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.14206972 Iranian_Bandari

[Zoro]

That's not true. Even Italians and Central Europeans are closer -did not add them- than Iranians to me. Here is my G25,

Distance to: Thracian_scaled
0.03922165 Gagauz
0.04243246 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04508945 Bulgarian
0.04681872 Albanian
0.04782238 Greek_Thessaly
0.04797165 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04842110 Greek_Izmir
0.05199437 Romanian
0.05274515 Macedonian
0.05874338 Montenegrin
0.05957014 Serbian
0.06187360 Greek_Thrace
0.06256113 Greek_Crete
0.06866868 Greek_Kos
0.06866921 Bosnian
0.07833188 Croatian
0.08250413 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.08292533 Slovenian
0.09964249 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.10238218 Iranian_Fars
0.10266675 Greek_Trabzon
0.10595746 Iranian_Lor
0.10695985 Iranian_Seyyed
0.10699789 Iranian_Jew
0.12360324 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.14206972 Iranian_Bandari

Coordinate based systems such as G-25 vary all over the place. I gave some reasons on previous page. If you really want to get serious and compare for example Turks vs Iranians vs Italians you would have to compare them individually with each other using fst or something without contaminating the run with a zillion other samples from all over the world.


There are other problems with using PCAs and coordinate based methods such as G-25 because those coordinates fluctuate based on how many samples are in the run and how many samples of each population are in the run. For example if there are 50 steppe MLBA samples and only 5 Iranian Chl samples then the G-25 coordinates and PCA will be different than if it was more correctly done with 50 samples of steppe MLBA and 50 samples of Iran Chl.

In addition to all those problems with PCA one of the biggest is also that PCA doesn't tell you whether the populations cluster in those areas due to old shared drift or new geneflow.

For example 50/50 African/Americans cluster further from Europeans on PCA than W. Asian from Europeans even though they have 50% recent European admixture whereas W. Asians have 0 recent European admixture. So PCA can be deceiving if it's used for recent admixture. Similarly G-25 because it's based on coordinates.

[Kyp]

That's not true. Even Italians and Central Europeans are closer -did not add them- than Iranians to me. Here is my G25,

Distance to: Thracian_scaled
0.03922165 Gagauz
0.04243246 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04508945 Bulgarian
0.04681872 Albanian
0.04782238 Greek_Thessaly
0.04797165 Greek_Peloponnese
0.04842110 Greek_Izmir
0.05199437 Romanian
0.05274515 Macedonian
0.05874338 Montenegrin
0.05957014 Serbian
0.06187360 Greek_Thrace
0.06256113 Greek_Crete
0.06866868 Greek_Kos
0.06866921 Bosnian
0.07833188 Croatian
0.08250413 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.08292533 Slovenian
0.09964249 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.10238218 Iranian_Fars
0.10266675 Greek_Trabzon
0.10595746 Iranian_Lor
0.10695985 Iranian_Seyyed
0.10699789 Iranian_Jew
0.12360324 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.14206972 Iranian_Bandari

It is true for Anatolian Turks (excluding Balkan Turks and Turks from Northwest)
They are equidistant to Persians and Greeks even. And obviously closer to Iranian Azeris (who form a huge chunk of Iranian population). But also closer to Cappadocian Greeks than to Persians obviously. But they aren't really numerous.

[Eline]

I would say 1-2 % on average among Persians. I would need to see some published paper rather than what people are posting here.

Like I said I need to see some paper.
Here is the latest paper on the iranian population. It is just a few months old

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/

[Eline]

According to this paper all Iranian people including the Kurds and the Persians evolved from one source but there was a split between the Kurds and the Persians during the era of the Medes 3000 years ago. Arab and Turkic speaking population are heavily mixed with the Iranian people but according to the study Arabs and Turkmen in Iran have different origin from the Persian people.

[Thracian]

Coordinate based systems such as G-25 vary all over the place. I gave some reasons on previous page. If you really want to get serious and compare for example Turks vs Iranians vs Italians you would have to compare them individually with each other using fst or something without contaminating the run with a zillion other samples from all over the world.

Your words make sense. I am just interested genetics amateurishly. Actually my point was not about Turks and Iranians but rather than Turks from Balkans and Anatolia are different than each others genetically.

[Eline]

Modern Persians are almost identical to the ancient Persians of Cyrus the Great.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/

[Thracian]

It is true for Anatolian Turks (excluding Balkan Turks and Turks from Northwest)
They are equidistant to Persians and Greeks even. And obviously closer to Iranian Azeris (who form a huge chunk of Iranian population). But also closer to Cappadocian Greeks than to Persians obviously. But they aren't really numerous.

Yes, I agree with you and that was my point.

On the other hand, I do not deny Iranic influence on Turks.

[Eline]

Proto-West Iranians (kurds & persians) had moslty CIC (Central Iranian Cluster) ancestry.


'Our study, based on genome-wide data from a stratified ethnic-group sampling and also including groups previously not well covered, such as Iranian Gilaks, Kurds, Mazanderanis and Sistanis, revealed the distinct and rich genetic diversity of the Iranian population, corroborating previous reports based on uniparental markers. The majority of Iran’s ethnic groups comprise largely overlapping genetic autosomal diversity, implicating a shared and largely autochthonous ancestry, designated as the Central Iranian Cluster (CIC). Notably, the CIC also includes Iranian Arabs and Azeris (Fig 1) as well as the religious group of Zoroastrians (Fig 3), being consistent with the suggestion that Zoroastrians have lived in the area of present-day Iran for millennia and had formed an early group of Indo-European speakers.'


'In comparison with global and local reference data, the CIC represents a distinct entity comprising an autochthonous genetic component, clustering closely with geographically adjacent populations and assuming a location in the ‘genetic map’ that corresponds to its geographic location at the nexus between South, Central and West Asia, Northern Africa and the Caucasus. This observation is consistent with limited gene flow reported in previous uniparental marker-based studies and adding a further example on the correspondence between genetic diversity and geographic location, such as Europe [73, 119], explicable by genetic drift as well as admixture. The largely autochthonous development of CIC groups, consistent with an early branching from the Eurasian population before the Neolithic [6], is further corroborated by the distinctiveness of these groups in comparison to different time strata represented by aDNA samples, indicating a genetic continuity for at least several past millennia and eventually mirrored by Zoroastrian genomic diversity. Both, Early Neolithic farmers from West Iran and people from the Steppe appear to have made very limited contributions to CIC groups.'


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/

[Eline]

Today's Persians heavily mixed with other ethnicstodays persians are similar to the ancient persians from cyrus the great period. Persians share with other West Iranics such as kurds ancient proto-west iranian ancestry, CIC. Most likely this ancient proto west iranian ancestry is from western iran or kurdish areas in west asia, because proto-iranian CIC doesnt have much of iranian neolithic ancestry or steppe ancestry. CIC evolved mostly from chalcolithic people from kurdistan.

[Dr_Maul]

Kurds cluster very close to Iranian Azeris both being Medes descendants.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lq4LrrmXA_I/XT-KLZxUfeI/AAAAAAAADCY/TRDLz2_AwdEzl7ZX8n4OK3cjYdhiDZpLwCLcBGAs/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2019-07-29%2Bat%2B6.06.15%2BPM.png

May be some distant ones like Kakai Dizai may show some admixture but thickest majority is NW Iranics.


Hmmmm ok but I still think Kurds / Lurs (Medes descendants) will have some distant Semitic dna because Medes themselves are mixed a bit with Kassites (pre Iranic Semite people of the Zagros area)

[Babak]

Hmmmm ok but I still think Kurds / Lurs (Medes descendants) will have some distant Semitic dna because Medes themselves are mixed a bit with Kassites (pre Iranic Semite people of the Zagros area)

They dont. Neither of them dont score any direct semitic ancestry. The only visible Semitic like ancestry Iranics have is from Pre-Islam, which is also isnt much either.

[Eline]

Hmmmm ok but I still think Kurds / Lurs (Medes descendants) will have some distant Semitic dna because Medes themselves are mixed a bit with Kassites (pre Iranic Semite people of the Zagros area)kassites were not semitic. kassites had actually iranian names and iranian deities. semites dont come from zagros area.

maybe you mix non-semitic kassites with the semitic babylonian chaldeans?


kurds have actually more of proto-iranian CIC (central iranian cluster) ancestry than persians

[Zoro]

Hmmmm ok but I still think Kurds / Lurs (Medes descendants) will have some distant Semitic dna because Medes themselves are mixed a bit with Kassites (pre Iranic Semite people of the Zagros area)

Agree with Babak and Eline regarding Kassites and Arab admixture in Iranics. In fact it’s the opposite you notice there are some Arab outliers within the Iranic cluster and not the reverse. Those could be Iraqi Arabs who are Iranic admixed

[Eline]

In fact it’s the opposite you notice there are some Arab outliers within the Iranic cluster and not the reverse. Those could be Iraqi Arabs who are Iranic admixed
Speaking about the Arabs, Arabs in Iran are all Iranized. Arabs in Iran have different origin, but Iranian people have Iranized them.



Ancient DNA samples from 45,000 (Upper Palaeolithic)–3350 BCE in the context of extant Iranian ethnic groups.
https://i.postimg.cc/KcD4zh6y/1.jpg
https://imgur.com/a/570W4vE


Ancient DNA samples from 3350–1200 BCE in the context of extant Iranian ethnic groups.
https://i.postimg.cc/76MPfSQN/2.jpg
https://imgur.com/a/B1DJ1C9


Ancient DNA samples from 1200 BCE–1460 CE in the context of extant Iranian ethnic groups.
https://i.postimg.cc/QNmxDk78/3.jpg
https://imgur.com/CsScOl9


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/

[Zoro]

I posted another Treemix run I found. We should look at what it generally conveys. Some other NW Iranians would be similar to the Kurds if they were done. Generally speaking it shows that Kurds and Ossetians form the Indo-Iranic clade and Armenians and Assyrians form another clade seperate from Jordanian Arabs.

In general terms it also shows that Kurds and Ossetians have more steppe and E Asian than Assyrians/Armenians/Arabs.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316931-Treemix-for-Kurds-Armenians-Pashtuns&p=6548639#post6548639

[Dr_Maul]

I stand corrected, lol

[SharpFork]

They dont. Neither of them dont score any direct semitic ancestry. The only visible Semitic like ancestry Iranics have is from Pre-Islam, which is also isnt much either.
You don't think Coastal Iranians have Arab admixture? Some even have subsaharan...

[Leto]

You don't think Coastal Iranians have Arab admixture? Some even have subsaharan...
One of the results when I google Southern Iran
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/54675c56e4b0c48254451f86/1429233693904-AQZXYM0AN2ITMJP3T561/IMG_3084.jpg?format=500w&content-type=image%2Fjpeg
LOL

[Historyinterest]

One of the results when I google Southern Iran
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/54675c56e4b0c48254451f86/1429233693904-AQZXYM0AN2ITMJP3T561/IMG_3084.jpg?format=500w&content-type=image%2Fjpeg
LOL

Ancient Persia was black

Kangz we wuz

[Kyp]

Ancient Persia was black

Kangz we wuz

What about Afro-Turks

https://iadsb.tmgrup.com.tr/975367/0/0/0/0/1822/1206?u=https://idsb.tmgrup.com.tr/2017/10/29/afro-turks-consider-turkey-home-but-wonder-about-their-roots-in-africa-1509296611953.jpg

Maybe Seljuks were black originally? They mixed with Armenians and got lighter.

[Leto]

What about Afro-Turks

https://iadsb.tmgrup.com.tr/975367/0/0/0/0/1822/1206?u=https://idsb.tmgrup.com.tr/2017/10/29/afro-turks-consider-turkey-home-but-wonder-about-their-roots-in-africa-1509296611953.jpg

Maybe Seljuks were black originally? They mixed with Armenians and got lighter.
He looks Kurdish with black skin, I swear!

[Kyp]

He looks Kurdish with black skin, I swear!

It's actually funny that they really look Turkish somehow, I'm not joking

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/50/be/3150be0f35de7399cadc7db364dff28c.jpg

[Kyp]

Afro Iranians the original Aryan invaders?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/96/59/b69659587cdff8c33aeb189f27c79c88.jpg

[Historyinterest]

What about Afro-Turks

IMG
Maybe Seljuks were black originally? They mixed with Armenians and got lighter.

Yes yes. Anatolia was a white land before Turks entered. 1071 Manzikert was black (or yellow) on white crime

[Babak]

One of the results when I google Southern Iran
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/54675c56e4b0c48254451f86/1429233693904-AQZXYM0AN2ITMJP3T561/IMG_3084.jpg?format=500w&content-type=image%2Fjpeg
LOL

These are Afro Iranians and they live in the extreme southern parts of Iran. They were brought by slaves from Qajars. Theyre different from typical 'south' iranians if you will.

[Nurzat]

maybe not the best calc, but still...

Target: Iranian_Bandari
Distance: 8.4837% / 0.08483662
65.2 Caucasian
16.2 South_Asian
9.6 Near_Eastern
4.8 Eastern_European
3.6 African
0.6 American

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 5.3094% / 0.05309415
64.2 Caucasian
17.4 Near_Eastern
8.2 South_Asian
5.8 Eastern_European
2.2 Western_European
1.2 American
0.8 Siberian
0.2 African

Target: Iranian_Lor
Distance: 5.1549% / 0.05154861
65.8 Caucasian
21.6 Near_Eastern
6.0 South_Asian
2.6 Eastern_European
2.2 Western_European
1.0 Siberian
0.6 American
0.2 African

Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
Distance: 6.7179% / 0.06717867
78.0 Caucasian
10.2 Near_Eastern
8.4 South_Asian
2.4 Eastern_European
0.8 American
0.2 African

Target: Iranian_Seyyed
Distance: 5.3577% / 0.05357677
61.6 Caucasian
20.4 Near_Eastern
9.4 South_Asian
6.2 Eastern_European
1.0 American
0.8 Siberian
0.6 African

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 5.6338% / 0.05633804
64.0 Caucasian
17.0 Near_Eastern
6.6 South_Asian
6.6 Western_European
4.4 Eastern_European
1.2 American
0.2 African

[Leto]

These are Afro Iranians and they live in the extreme southern parts of Iran. They were brought by slaves from Qajars. Theyre different from typical 'south' iranians if you will.
Obviously I understand that. But they are the source of black ancestry in Baloch.