why do people say indians and pakistanis are the same people

[Trouble]

it pisses me off so much we overlap culturally and phenotypically 100X more with Sri Lankans and Bengalis than with Pakis.

[TheForeigner]

Aren't Punjabis and Sindhis the two main ethnic groups of Pakistan and also present as Hindus in India?

[Trouble]

Aren't Punjabis and Sindhis the two main ethnic groups of Pakistan and also present as Hindus in India?

They are not even 4% of the population in india

[Smeagol]

They were the same thing before 1947.

[Tellerin]

Pakistan is Iran based as population

[Trouble]

They were the same thing before 1947.

So was Myanmar at one point. No one claims they're the same.

[Thambi]

Youll be surprised but there are so many people in the west that dont even know bangladesh is a country. They think its some region in india. While pakistan is atleast known as a country. but even pakistan is quite often thought of as middle east, atleast in america. not sure about europe though.

[Kyp]

Pakistan is Iran based as population

wut

[Smeagol]

So was Myanmar at one point. No one claims they're the same.

Difference is that the border between India and Pakistan isn't a ethnic one. The same groups live on both sides.

[Loki]

The only thing that separates Pakistan from India is main religion. It used to be part of India, but the British partitioned India and Pakistan and Bangladesh became Muslim-majority countries, and population exchanges occurred. Hence, many "Pakistanis" who live in Pakistan today came from Indian soil before the partitioning, and only went to Pakistan because they were Muslim. Conversely, many Hindus living in what is today Pakistan, moved to India.

[Avicenna]

The only parts of Pakistan where it cannot be called same as Indian is pashtun region , gilgit and parts of balchistan (Alot of Balochistan is uninhabitated). Sindh, Punjab and Kashmir will always be part of greater India .

[Mortimer]

Thats because for outsiders they are all the same. Just like all "east asians" "look the same to them". Or all middle easterners are "arabs" to them. They distinguish more between small european nations like bosnia and croatia then such a large continent. But thats normal for outsiders. Probably indians view all europeans the same too.

[Thambi]

The only parts of Pakistan where it cannot be called same as Indian is pashtun region , gilgit and parts of balchistan (Alot of Balochistan is uninhabitated). Sindh, Punjab and Kashmir will always be part of greater India .

gilgit region is majority indo aryan though

[Avicenna]

gilgit region is majority indo aryan though

Indo Aryan as in? Gilgit is inhabitated by the burusho and hunza people , they don't speak an Indo Aryan language , they are Muslims too .

[Avicenna]

gilgit region is majority indo aryan though

Indo Aryan as in? Gilgit is inhabitated by the burusho and hunza people , they don't speak an Indo Aryan language , they are Muslims too .

[Trouble]

Indo Aryan as in? Gilgit is inhabitated by the burusho and hunza people , they don't speak an Indo Aryan language , they are Muslims too .

Shina and Khowar too...they are indo aryans

[lameduck]

gilgit region is majority indo aryan though

useless post from a usual afghan , these refugees sitting in europe try to create mythical boundaries to satisfy their political agenda

I wouldnt mind one bit if pakistan is considered as greater sirilanka anyways

People in large region can be lumped togather like Europe , Middle east and East Asia I have no problem with it.

[lameduck]

The only thing that separates Pakistan from India is main religion. It used to be part of India, but the British partitioned India and Pakistan and Bangladesh became Muslim-majority countries, and population exchanges occurred. Hence, many "Pakistanis" who live in Pakistan today came from Indian soil before the partitioning, and only went to Pakistan because they were Muslim. Conversely, many Hindus living in what is today Pakistan, moved to India.

over 80% of migration was from Indian Punjab region , 20% was from other regions of India and these migrant coummunities make rougly 7% of population , purely from ethnic point of view Pakistan and India are pretty distinct barring Punjab and Kashmir of India also Punjab is not a homogenous region, it has complex regional diversity. But south asia is very complex region and I wouldnt mind if people are lumped togather by outsiders and dealt on case by case basis , just like other regions of world like europe, middle east and east asia.

[lameduck]

mmmmm

[lameduck]

The only thing that separates Pakistan from India is main religion. It used to be part of India, but the British partitioned India and Pakistan and Bangladesh became Muslim-majority countries, and population exchanges occurred. Hence, many "Pakistanis" who live in Pakistan today came from Indian soil before the partitioning, and only went to Pakistan because they were Muslim. Conversely, many Hindus living in what is today Pakistan, moved to India.

Over 80% of population exchange was between 2 Punjabs ,while 20% from other regions of india mainly west UP , these people make roughly 7% of Pakistan,s population.Talking solely from ethnic point of view pakistan is pretty distinct from india barring Punjab and Kashmir region of India.Punjab itself is not a homogeneous region and has many regional identities.

Saying all this south asia is a complex region and many things extend beyond ethnicity, I wouldn't mind if people are lumped together as in other parts of world and dealt with on case by case basis.

[Nomansman]

useless post from a usual afghan , these refugees sitting in europe try to create mythical boundaries to satisfy their political agenda

I wouldnt mind one bit if pakistan is considered as greater sirilanka anyways

People in large region can be lumped togather like Europe , Middle east and East Asia I have no problem with it.



Shina and Khowar too...they are indo aryans


gilgit region is majority indo aryan though



TBH, i dont think dards should exactly be lumped with nw south asians. Sure theyre linguistically indo-aryans, but theyre pretty much their own thing.
Pamiris and pashtuns are both iranics, but they are still both different things. Dards evven seem to be more related to pamiris than other south asians. I think they should be considered their own thing

[lameduck]

TBH, i dont think dards should exactly be lumped with nw south asians. Sure theyre linguistically indo-aryans, but theyre pretty much their own thing.
Pamiris and pashtuns are both iranics, but they are still both different things. Dards evven seem to be more related to pamiris than other south asians. I think they should be considered their own thing

I know Pakistan is a large multi ethnic country with many regional zones , but there is nothing remarkable in pakistan compared to any large asian country in terms of this , many large countries have somewhat different groups living in them. people act like Punjabis/sindhis are some different species living with some other species is just plain wrong and done by politically motivated Indians and Afghans.

[Avicenna]

useless post from a usual afghan , these refugees sitting in europe try to create mythical boundaries to satisfy their political agenda

I wouldnt mind one bit if pakistan is considered as greater sirilanka anyways

People in large region can be lumped togather like Europe , Middle east and East Asia I have no problem with it.

Why are you insulting me for no godamn reason ? You think I give a shit about some paki region ? You asylum seeking piece of shit don't point your finger towards me . I didn't claim the gilgit region as my own , I just indicated it to be unique from the rest of greater India . Limpdick.

[Avicenna]

I know Pakistan is a large multi ethnic country with many regional zones , but there is nothing remarkable in pakistan compared to any large asian country in terms of this , many large countries have somewhat different groups living in them. people act like Punjabis/sindhis are some different species living with some other species is just plain wrong and done by politically motivated Indians and Afghans.

Punjab /Sindh is extremely different to gilgit baltistan . That is my opinion and if you don't like it go eat some daal.

[Avicenna]

TBH, i dont think dards should exactly be lumped with nw south asians. Sure theyre linguistically indo-aryans, but theyre pretty much their own thing.
Pamiris and pashtuns are both iranics, but they are still both different things. Dards evven seem to be more related to pamiris than other south asians. I think they should be considered their own thing

Pakis get butthurt when clear and obvious differences are shown to them , especially by non pakis . They are forgetting that pakiland was a forged state just over 70 years ago .

Many self proclaimed pakis are infact Indians from Punjab region .

Dards, burusho , chitralis have very little to do with punjabis and Sindhis , who belong to india.

[lameduck]

Why are you insulting me for no godamn reason ? You think I give a shit about some paki region ? You asylum seeking piece of shit don't point your finger towards me . I didn't claim the gilgit region as my own , I just indicated it to be unique from the rest of greater India . Limpdick.

90% of your forum posts are on how a "scintist defined" component in your genetic admixture is a "zombie component not real" , this is level of your security and you have the audacity to call other names lol.

[The Lawspeaker]

https://66.media.tumblr.com/da718499419151a2ac97b328b3f78dc6/tumblr_mq76jxHTst1s577j8o1_400.gif

[lameduck]

Pakis get butthurt when clear and obvious differences are shown to them , especially by non pakis . They are forgetting that pakiland was a forged state just over 70 years ago .

Many self proclaimed pakis are infact Indians from Punjab region .

Dards, burusho , chitralis have very little to do with punjabis and Sindhis , who belong to india.


yeah and where they belong? mighty superpower of afghanistan? which is only stable under a foreign rule
what ever there differences are , they can be most different neighbours in universe but they belong to where they are. Co cry somewhere wannabe arab.

[The Lawspeaker]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/ba2f641f363503350467468d09700b3b/tenor.gif

[Nomansman]

Punjab /Sindh is extremely different to gilgit baltistan . That is my opinion and if you don't like it go eat some daal.


90% of your forum posts are on how a "scintist defined" component in your genetic admixture is a "zombie component not real" , this is level of your security and you have the audacity to call other names lol.


TBH, lameduck, you kind of seem to get butthurt sometimes even when you dont want to admit it(you even seemed a bit butthurt, when i tolld you afghans and non-west pakis have differences) and Avicenna didnt start this time.


But avi, there are clearly also similiarities between nw pakis and most of NW south asians. They likely also share a lot genetically(having recieved ancestry from indo-iranians, IVC admix etc). Youre also kind of exaggerating, if youre saying they have nothing to do with each other/very little


But yeah, there are clearly bigger differences between nw south asians and dards and i think dards are more closer to pamiris in everything than to nw south asians.

[Avicenna]

90% of your forum posts are on how a "scintist defined" component in your genetic admixture is a "zombie component not real" , this is level of your security and you have the audacity to call other names lol.

Strawman arguments lol. Can you provide a quote where I have said that within context ? You just seem very insecure and angry regarding your identity.

[lameduck]

TBH, lameduck, you kind of seem to get butthurt sometimes even when you dont want to admit it(you even seemed a bit butthurt, when i tolld you afghans and non-west pakis have differences) and Avicenna didnt start this time.


But avi, there are clearly also similiarities between nw pakis and most of NW south asians. They likely also share a lot genetically(having recieved ancestry from indo-iranians, IVC admix etc). Youre also kind of exaggerating, if youre saying they have nothing to do with each other/very little


But yeah, there are clearly bigger differences between nw south asians and dards and i think dards are more closer to pamiris in everything than to nw south asians.

ok I appolgize.
I never said there arent differnces , but Pakistanis also share enough with each other , they have given life for this country, the reason why Pakistan is getting on top of travel destination by reputable publications has huge stories of sacrifices behind it, this alone is enough to bind them.

[Avicenna]

90% of your forum posts are on how a "scintist defined" component in your genetic admixture is a "zombie component not real" , this is level of your security and you have the audacity to call other names lol.

Strawman arguments lol. Can you provide a quote where I have said that within context ? You just seem very insecure and angry regarding your identity.

[Avicenna]

yeah and where they belong? mighty superpower of afghanistan? which is only stable under a foreign rule
what ever there differences are , they can be most different neighbours in universe but they belong to where they are. Co cry somewhere wannabe arab.
Again you are making claims and arguing against them yourself without any opposition . Where did I make that claim? You are like a headless chicken right now . Go to sleep man .

[Kamal900]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/ba2f641f363503350467468d09700b3b/tenor.gif

To be quite frank with you, there is little to no difference between Pakistanis and Indians minus the religious beliefs and so on. Only those that are living in the north are genetically more Central Asiatic who are more closer to Iranians than to other South Asians. The Neolithic Iranian and the CHG genes are spread far and wide including Afghanistan and South Asia even. The only Europeans that are genetically in the grayer areas of European and MENA clusters are Southern Italians and Aegean Greek islanders who cluster the closest to western Jewish peoples than to 95% of other Europeans.

[The Lawspeaker]

Come on. This wasn't even a scratch. We need a blood bath. You lot are more like those screaming Indians:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFRuf0-sTno


And, fuck it, to us you're all the same anyway...


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/096/044/trollface.jpg?1296494117

[The Lawspeaker]

To be quite frank with you, there is little to no difference between Pakistanis and Indians minus the religious beliefs and so on. Only those that are living in the north are genetically more Central Asiatic who are more closer to Iranians than to other South Asians. The Neolithic Iranian and the CHG genes are spread far and wide including Afghanistan and South Asia even. The only Europeans that are genetically in the grayer areas of European and MENA clusters are Southern Italians and Aegean Greek islanders who cluster the closest to western Jewish peoples than to 95% of other Europeans.
We feel the same way here in Europe: they're all the same to us.

[lameduck]

To be quite frank with you, there is little to no difference between Pakistanis and Indians minus the religious beliefs and so on. Only those that are living in the north are genetically more Central Asiatic who are more closer to Iranians than to other South Asians. The Neolithic Iranian and the CHG genes are spread far and wide including Afghanistan and South Asia even. The only Europeans that are genetically in the grayer areas of European and MENA clusters are Southern Italians and Aegean Greek islanders who cluster the closest to western Jewish peoples than to 95% of other Europeans.

differences in South Asia how much minuscale they are , I can assure you will be more visible to casual unbaised observer than MENA , but in South Asia there are just two major nations while in MENA there are countless languages/ethnicites/natioans and they are also always fighting with each other.

[Kamal900]

We feel the same way here in Europe: they're all the same to us.

Well, Indo-Aryans are the largest ethno-linguistic group in the world, and they share the same linguistic and genetic ancestry as their Iranian cousins of the middle east(Persians, Kurds, Gilakis, Zazakis and so on) and South-Central Asia(Pashtuns, Yaghnobis, Tajiks, and etc). Both of them belong to the linguitic node called the Indo-Iranian or Aryan group, and they originated from the ancient culture of Sintashta culture of the Eurasian steppes. We have their genetics, and they were very similar to your people and other Germanic peoples and even to Insular Celts(Irish, Scots, Welsh and so on) than to any modern day Indo-Iranian group.
Distance to: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.05986768 Norwegian
0.05991523 Swedish
0.06055582 Icelandic
0.06252940 Shetlandic
0.06431050 Dutch
0.06443607 Irish
0.06454585 Orcadian
0.06503433 Scottish
0.06743911 Finnish
0.06946724 Ingrian
0.07018729 Czech
0.07023342 German_East
0.07035654 English
0.07041351 Welsh
0.07132933 Russian_Kursk
0.07142552 Moldavian_o
0.07151478 Slovakian
0.07187973 Russian_Tver
0.07228418 German
0.07260315 Russian_Kostroma
0.07301590 Russian_Orel
0.07307935 Polish
0.07383864 English_Cornwall
0.07392557 Mordovian
0.07493891 French_Brittany
0.07498796 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.07509520 Ukrainian
0.07573381 Cossack_Kuban
0.07607100 Hungarian
0.07725973 Austrian

Now, the reason for this is that these people trace a bulk of their genetic ancestry from Central Europe AKA the Corded Ware culture that the Germanic peoples and the Balto-Slavic peoples came from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture#Origin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#Formation_of_the_Indo-European_languages_in_Europe

This is how the Corded Ware peoples would have looked like:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cb/53/59/cb53594cb3c4df8532e8a854de529fb9.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/MvbSmfkIqXF7f09oQEQNkYzDhQEWM-OmUkyQA59ibg9lkXU-O9_S8XWodNMfIaX4y2mxU3B5OV04c3UF1LdpdigquvM4tkogs5 Y3rAwUqXXJnpMgviCF8w
https://cdn.iflscience.com/images/3fc73a7d-cb5f-56e6-a9e9-0dcad8bd27c3/content-1548928922-ditchling-road-front.jpg
https://cdn.iflscience.com/images/3f148cfd-a8c0-574d-84ce-6a1704899281/content-1548927942-slonk-hill-man.jpg

They look pretty much like today's NW-Europeans, Germanic Europeans like the Dutch, Norwegians and so on. Now, you might me wondering "how much of that ancestry is found in today's Aryans or Indo-Iranians?", and really, it's not much since the Indo-Iranians pretty much had mixed and assimilated a lot of natives of Central and West Asia, and the Indo-Aryans were genetically a mixture between neolithic Iranians, CHG and Northern European-like peoples back then.

Neolithic Iranians:
Distance to: IRN_Wezmeh_N
0.11134190 Makrani
0.12143900 Balochi
0.12153037 Brahui
0.12929794 Iranian_Bandari
0.14305385 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.14886214 Parsi_India
0.15010506 Parsi_Pakistan
0.15861646 Iranian_Seyyed
0.16273587 Iranian_Fars
0.16378257 Iranian_Lor
0.16588129 Tarkalani
0.16594734 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.16641526 Kalash
0.16892910 Uthmankhel
0.16916833 Sindhi
0.16921293 Yusufzai
0.17248469 Pashtun
0.17253137 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.17352604 Kamboj
0.17399785 Kurdish
0.17493048 Gujar_Pakistan
0.17710663 Ezid
0.17755898 Khatri
0.17850829 Kohistani
0.18256758 Kho_Singanali
0.18378130 Azeri
0.18526282 Punjabi_Jatt
0.18765031 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.18876273 Azeri_Dagestan
0.18981926 Gujar_India

Indo-Iranians or Aryans from Turkmenistan back in the early Iron age period:
Distance to: TKM_IA
0.04423695 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.05403398 Darginian
0.05430677 Kaitag
0.05468958 Avar
0.05576677 Lak
0.05628173 Tabasaran
0.05651776 Tajik_Rushan
0.05752427 Kubachinian
0.06546077 Tajik_Shugnan
0.07775335 Chechen
0.08212427 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.08289891 Kumyk
0.08518332 Azeri_Dagestan
0.08657828 Ingushian
0.08891807 Balkar
0.09134081 Cherkes
0.09205996 Tajik
0.09232893 Kabardin
0.09248967 Karachay
0.09352681 Circassian
0.09469498 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.09589000 Abazin
0.09685012 North_Ossetian
0.09765505 Iranian_Fars
0.09951915 Adygei
0.10190286 Iranian_Seyyed
0.10312717 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.10518648 Turkish_Istanbul
0.10531296 Ezid
0.10648489 Ossetian

[Kamal900]

differences in South Asia how much minuscale they are , I can assure you will be more visible to casual unbaised observer than MENA , but in South Asia there are just two major nations while in MENA there are countless languages/ethnicites/natioans and they are also always fighting with each other.

Well, the Pashtuns and the Baloch of Pakistan disagree with you on that, and India itself also suffers from nationalistic tendencies to other ethnic and religious groups of said country. The mere fact that Hind-poos of India are treating the Kashmiris just as badly as say Palestinians by the Israeli government does tell you quite a lot really. The riots in Delhi is still going btw.

[Kamal900]

differences in South Asia how much minuscale they are , I can assure you will be more visible to casual unbaised observer than MENA , but in South Asia there are just two major nations while in MENA there are countless languages/ethnicites/natioans and they are also always fighting with each other.

Well, the Pashtuns and the Baloch of Pakistan disagree with you on that, and India itself also suffers from nationalistic tendencies to other ethnic and religious groups of said country. The mere fact that Hind-poos of India are treating the Kashmiris just as badly as say Palestinians by the Israeli government does tell you quite a lot really. The riots in Delhi is still going btw.

[lameduck]

Well, the Pashtuns and the Baloch of Pakistan disagree with you on that, and India itself also suffers from nationalistic tendencies to other ethnic and religious groups of said country. The mere fact that Hind-poos of India are treating the Kashmiris just as badly as say Palestinians by the Israeli government does tell you quite a lot really. The riots in Delhi is still going btw.

only separatist armed movement in modern land of Pakistan has been Baloch insurgency (but it never got successful because of complex demography issue of balochsitan , pashtuns make equal population of Balochistan as Baloch , so separatist never had mass appeal) Among sindhis and Pashtun nationalists there is resentment against Punjabis ,no doubt about that, but its more about getting more rights and weakening of central Punjab/Lahore's grip on center. If Seraiki province with Multan capital is made this issue would be resolved as well. Democracy has done wonders for Pakistan when it comes to ethnic issues , there are always debates regarding contitutions ammendements and provincial autnomy in parliament, so nationalits get a vent out. Pakistan and India are large multi ethnic countries some voices of dissent are bound to be there.

[Thambi]

Indo Aryan as in? Gilgit is inhabitated by the burusho and hunza people , they don't speak an Indo Aryan language , they are Muslims too .

Ok not majority but 50-60% of the speakers there are indo aryan while the other portion includes tibetic, iranic, and other isolate speakers. Shina and khowar together hold approximately 1 mill. Speakers over there where the population overall is 2 million. There are some native kashmiri, urdu, punjabi speakers as well in thai region.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgit-Baltistan

[lameduck]

Ok not majority but 50-60% of the speakers there are indo aryan while the other portion includes tibetic, iranic, and other isolate speakers. Shina and khowar together hold approximately 1 mill. Speakers over there where the population overall is 2 million. There are some native kashmiri, urdu, punjabi speakers as well in thai region.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgit-Baltistan

Add to this Northern Pakistan is home to many important centers of hinduism and Bhuddism , yes there are differences across pakistan but enough links as well.

[Thambi]

Indo Aryan as in? Gilgit is inhabitated by the burusho and hunza people , they don't speak an Indo Aryan language , they are Muslims too .

Burusho DNA results

68% Burusho and 32% South Asia. I wish he did 23andme instead cause their updates are freaking amazing now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ulqLbMBaKE

[Nomansman]

Burusho DNA results

68% Burusho and 32% South Asia. I wish he did 23andme instead cause their updates are freaking amazing now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ulqLbMBaKE

Seems more like this dude got 70% burusho on a test and just called the video "burusho" not necessarily being burusho and specially with a channel named "desi athletes"

[Trouble]

TBH, i dont think dards should exactly be lumped with nw south asians. Sure theyre linguistically indo-aryans, but theyre pretty much their own thing.
Pamiris and pashtuns are both iranics, but they are still both different things. Dards evven seem to be more related to pamiris than other south asians. I think they should be considered their own thing

So Kashmiris, Kohistanis, Kho(all Dardics) are their own thing? Dards are more related to Pamiris?

"sample": "Kashmiri_Pandit:Average",
"fit": 2.6652,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

"sample": "Kho_Singanali:Average",
"fit": 3.9968,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

"sample": "Kohistani:Average",
"fit": 1.9498,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

Now compared to Pamiri:
"sample": "Kashmiri_Pandit:Average",
"fit": 11.146,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

"sample": "Kho_Singanali:Average",
"fit": 6.5345,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

"sample": "Kohistani:Average",
"fit": 10.3262,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

[Anonymous211]

I m not familiar with Paki and india pheno ( because i live in france) but i guess many pakis pass for north indian and vice versa no ? or they have a really difference between 2 group ?

[Avicenna]

So Kashmiris, Kohistanis, Kho(all Dardics) are their own thing? Dards are more related to Pamiris?

"sample": "Kashmiri_Pandit:Average",
"fit": 2.6652,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

"sample": "Kho_Singanali:Average",
"fit": 3.9968,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

"sample": "Kohistani:Average",
"fit": 1.9498,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

Now compared to Pamiri:
"sample": "Kashmiri_Pandit:Average",
"fit": 11.146,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

"sample": "Kho_Singanali:Average",
"fit": 6.5345,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

"sample": "Kohistani:Average",
"fit": 10.3262,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

Can you do some runs with kho , kohistani and Kashmiri pandit please ? Compare it with pamiri too pls

Also I hardly doubt punjabi jatts are the most representative for nw south Asians .

[Ranger0075]

On my experience Pakistanis I have seen around were lighter than Indians and even light-eyed, but I just saw few examples.

[Nomansman]

So Kashmiris, Kohistanis, Kho(all Dardics) are their own thing? Dards are more related to Pamiris?

"sample": "Kashmiri_Pandit:Average",
"fit": 2.6652,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

"sample": "Kho_Singanali:Average",
"fit": 3.9968,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

"sample": "Kohistani:Average",
"fit": 1.9498,
"Punjabi_Jatt": 100,

Now compared to Pamiri:
"sample": "Kashmiri_Pandit:Average",
"fit": 11.146,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

"sample": "Kho_Singanali:Average",
"fit": 6.5345,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

"sample": "Kohistani:Average",
"fit": 10.3262,
"Tajik_Rushan": 100,

You left out the ishkashimis.

ALso, i didnt include kashmiris.
Even other kashmiris would been more central asian shifted(slightly), but pandits are just more south asian shifted. ANd again, i dont include kashmiris.

Also, one of the khos seem very south asian shifted(checked for myself). But thats likely diversity of dards.

ALso, i guess kohistanis are the exception. THey also seem very south asian shifted.

Anyway, i dont just mean genetically but also culturally and by looks.

And jatts arent exactly representive for all nw south asians. But i dont imagine them being too close to dards(although not really far either)

[NPKTO]

You left out the ishkashimis.

ALso, i didnt include kashmiris.
Even other kashmiris would been more central asian shifted(slightly), but pandits are just more south asian shifted. ANd again, i dont include kashmiris.

Also, one of the khos seem very south asian shifted(checked for myself). But thats likely diversity of dards.

ALso, i guess kohistanis are the exception. THey also seem very south asian shifted.

Anyway, i dont just mean genetically but also culturally and by looks.

And jatts arent exactly representive for all nw south asians. But i dont imagine them being too close to dards(although not really far either)
Pamiris have less Iran N & AASI compared to Dards. They're Steppe heavy, and prefer Sintashta type (heavy Anatolia Neolithic shifted). Dards prefer more of earlier Afanasievo type that is deficient in Anatolia Neolithic.

[Nomansman]

Pamiris have less Iran N & AASI compared to Dards. They're Steppe heavy, and prefer Sintashta type (heavy Anatolia Neolithic shifted). Dards prefer more of earlier Afanasievo type that is deficient in Anatolia Neolithic.

Your point?

I didnt say there werent bigger differences between those two, but dards are have more in common with pamiris than with nw south asians culturally, by looks and sometimes also genetically(specially comparing ishkashimis with khos)

[brennus dux gallorum]

it pisses me off so much we overlap culturally and phenotypically 100X more with Sri Lankans and Bengalis than with Pakis.

i guess they mean in a racial/linguistic level, not a social/cultural/mental one

[NPKTO]

Your point?

I didnt say there werent bigger differences between those two, but dards are have more in common with pamiris than with nw south asians culturally, by looks and sometimes also genetically(specially comparing ishkashimis with khos)
Even though they are culturally & lookwise closer to each other, they descend from slightly different population. Dardic folks descend mostly from ancient Swat people.

[Nomansman]

Even though they are culturally & lookwise closer to each other, they descend from slightly different population. Dardic folks descend mostly from ancient Swat people.

Im not arguing theyre the same. I know theyre not the same in everything, but in most(almost everything sometimes) aspects dards are closer to pamiris than to nw south asians(excluding kashmiris)

[Swarthy_Syndicate]

The only parts of Pakistan where it cannot be called same as Indian is pashtun region , gilgit and parts of balchistan (Alot of Balochistan is uninhabitated). Sindh, Punjab and Kashmir will always be part of greater India .

Pashtun region and Balochistan make up a MASSIVE amount of Pakistan’s territory don’t they? Like 30% of the population is ‘t even culturally Desi

[Avicenna]

Pashtun region and Balochistan make up a MASSIVE amount of Pakistan’s territory don’t they? Like 30% of the population is ‘t even culturally Desi

Places like swat or Mardan etc are sort of intermediate between iranic and Indus lands . Tribal areas bordering Afghanistan are fully ethnically afghan I believe . When we imagine Pakistanis, we all know we are talking about Punjabis , hindkos, gujjars , Kashmiris and sindhis .

[Avicenna]

Pashtun region and Balochistan make up a MASSIVE amount of Pakistan’s territory don’t they? Like 30% of the population is ‘t even culturally Desi

Places like swat or Mardan etc are sort of intermediate between iranic and Indus lands . Tribal areas bordering Afghanistan are fully ethnically afghan I believe . When we imagine Pakistanis, we all know we are talking about Punjabis , hindkos, gujjars , Kashmiris and sindhis .

[Dove]

They are like Bosnians and Serbians probably, there are a little language differences and they have different religions but almost same people but hate each other

[Corporate_Demolisher]

From what I've seen, Pakis seem to be significantly more Afghan-shifted than Indians, even North Indians.

[Chocolate_Hound]

Pakistan is literally Muslim India divided by a religious border. Punjab is a transnational region that has more land in Pakistan than in India. Pakistani Punjabis and Sindhis are 100% South Asian culturally and linguistically. There is some Pashtun influence in Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkwa but that's about it.

[Borealis]

Pakistan is literally Muslim India divided by a religious border. Punjab is a transnational region that has more land in Pakistan than in India. Pakistani Punjabis and Sindhis are 100% South Asian culturally and linguistically. There is some Pashtun influence in Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkwa but that's about it.

Borders are usually arbitrary as fuck. It does not preclude the people from looking different to each other.

[Chocolate_Hound]

differences in South Asia how much minuscale they are , I can assure you will be more visible to casual unbaised observer than MENA , but in South Asia there are just two major nations while in MENA there are countless languages/ethnicites/natioans and they are also always fighting with each other.

Also, a lot of MENA are white, unlike South Asians.

[turbosat]

Pakistan is literally Muslim India divided by a religious border. Punjab is a transnational region that has more land in Pakistan than in India. Pakistani Punjabis and Sindhis are 100% South Asian culturally and linguistically. There is some Pashtun influence in Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkwa but that's about it.

By far the largest population in Khyber Pakhtunkwa is Pashtun. I believe they are also about 50% of the population Balochistan. Therefore it is not "some Pashtun influence" but high Pashtun influence in those areas.

Besides that there are countless millions of Pashtuns and Afghan refugees living in Karachi, Lahore and most other large cities of Pakistan Punjab. Pashtuns are Afghan people in origin, but most Europeans don't know this. They think Pashtuns are "Pakis" who are "Afghan shifted".

[turbosat]

From what I've seen, Pakis seem to be significantly more Afghan-shifted than Indians, even North Indians.

Not really. You must be confused by Pashtun (Afghan people) from KPK area or some others like Kashmiri origin people.
Most normal Pakistanis are not more Afghan shifted.

e.g. see following. I dont think most of them are "Afghan shifted".

zoom into this.
https://static.dw.com/image/57188837_303.jpg

https://englishtribuneimages.blob.core.windows.net/gallary-content/2020/3/Desk/2020_3$largeimg_1728586600.jpeg

https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm-preview-1500/7861474c/a94ff460/Shutterstock_7861474c.jpg

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/%2Fmethode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F865312bc-92ff-11eb-930d-e9e6e3751f8f.jpg?crop=4408%2C2479%2C97%2C378&resize=1200

[punkx]

But kashmiris aren't more "afghan-shifted" than other NW Indians

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[turbosat]

But kashmiris aren't more "afghan-shifted" than other NW Indians

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A section of Kashmiris certainly are more "afghan shifted" or "west shifted" or whatever we want to call it. I have visited Srinagar and some other places in Kashmir, so I know this. Many Kashmiris can blend in with darker Afghans, and a smaller section of Kashmiris are quite light skinned. There are a lot of Kashmiri origin (or claimed to be Kashmiri origin) people in Pakistan Punjab.

"NW Indians" or "north Indian" etc are just labels based on where people live. It does not mean most of the population in those areas have a narrow range in appearance or complexion. There are lots of NW Indians and North Indians who look not hugely different to Indians anywhere else and are also often dark skinned as well.

eg This lady is "north Indian" but could be from just about anywhere in India except Kashmir.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToevUmENXHTaVZizyf21oU58V0CVK6P J7UbQ&usqp=CAU

[wvwvw]

Indians and Pakistanis are not one people, but then again neither Pakistanis are one people.

Over 80 languages are spoken in Pakistan

India has 22 separate official languages out of the 121 languages that are spoken and 270 different mother tongues.

[Pro.crasti.nation]

India is a bodge. It has no legitimacy beyond the British Raj, imo.

Pakistan is also more of a political creation than a true nation, but it has a huge Punjabi base and that holds most of it together. India doesn't have a largely dominant group, just "Hindu" identity and the endless caste politics that ensue from it.

Worse still, the Bengalis who are the inheritors of a great and highly sophisticated literary culture, act and think like Western middle class "liberals". So they go about further deconstructing India, while the Gujarati lot try and foist a fake victimhood history, so as to build a sense of common purpose to India.

Most Punjabis look like other Punjabis. Not many look like Kerelans. Same with other northern populations. There's more homogeneity across the North, than across India, imo.

[kevinmac]

The dumb illiterate trailer white trash of north America say that. According to them, all brown people are the same. I had a friend from south America (who looked south American) and was called pakistani by someone.

[placebo]

because they are the same?

[punkx]

Oh, she passes just about fine among these kashmiri crowds.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/f7732804a2d5d58b6bcac36b23c45473.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/d590f35aff07e5fbb7349c57fbdcaa86.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/8eef381d10560d26909b371a23935627.jpg

Ex-J&K CM Mehbooba Mufti's daughter looks like Mayawati, who by the way is a UP dalit who score an average of 66% ASI, significantly more than South Indian mid-castes.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/18344ce1da85f711007db7910d1568e0.jpg

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[Avicenna]

By far the largest population in Khyber Pakhtunkwa is Pashtun. I believe they are also about 50% of the population Balochistan. Therefore it is not "some Pashtun influence" but high Pashtun influence in those areas.

Besides that there are countless millions of Pashtuns and Afghan refugees living in Karachi, Lahore and most other large cities of Pakistan Punjab. Pashtuns are Afghan people in origin, but most Europeans don't know this. They think Pashtuns are "Pakis" who are "Afghan shifted".

I think you are exaggerating because the "paki " look doesn't look anything like afghans. There are national Pakistanis who are racially afghan but they tend to inhabit areas very close to the afghan border. Even places like peshawar I would say is not a good representative or areas like bannu or swat, let alone cities like Karachi or Lahore where it seems many 2nd , 3rd generations pashtuns have mixed with the locals to some extent . With that being said , I made a thread on south Asian + afghan u19 cricket teams and not suprisingly the only 5 players in the Pak team who could pass in Afghanistan were pashtuns from kpk! If I hadn't of notified that they were pashtun many people would have assumed that's just how "Pakistanis " look , who we know they actually mean Punjabis , sindhis , muhajjirs , Kashmiris etc .

The cricket thread for those who want to check it out

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?358471-U19-World-cup-Asian-squads-(-Afg-Pak-India-Bangladesh-Sri-Lanka)