Whats your opinion about Hungary Scythian sample.

[JohnnyP]

I noticed that Balkans are split on two groups when comes to closest samples on K13 Ancient, its Scythian Hungary DA195 and MJ12 Thraco-Kimmerian.
MJ12 Thraco-Kimmerian scores Macedonians(except Nortwest),Greeks mainlands(except few samples),Albanians,Torbeshi,Vlachs,Pomaks(few samples)Bulgarian(3 samples rest are scores DA195) and Serbian sample only from Macedonia.
Other group is Scythian DA195 , on top is Montenegrins,Bosnians,Bosniaks,Serbians,Romanians, Pomaks(few samples) and majority of Bulgarian samples.

https://i.imgur.com/uoLTMqZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CWDBaYy.jpg
Mytrueancestry
https://i.imgur.com/3SFhBkJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/335ZXc7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sjiQBpR.jpg

What do you think, what is this sample?Moesian,Tribalian,Dacian,Thracian,Illyrian or just Scythian?
Its 550BC sample.
Opinions?

[JohnnyP]

https://i.imgur.com/PcQkSxU.jpg

[Benyzero]

sexy

[Ion Basescul]

What do you think, what is this sample?Moesian,Tribalian,Dacian,Thracian,Illyrian or just Scythian?
Its 550BC sample.
Opinions?

There's also DA198 who shows another gradient in the Hungarian Scythians and it's even more Southern than MJ12.

I ran them against basic components some time ago.

https://i.imgur.com/4nLtQKY.png

https://i.imgur.com/HZaU0XO.png

[Dušan]

I noticed that Balkans are split on two groups when comes to closest samples on K13 Ancient, its Scythian Hungary DA195 and MJ12 Thraco-Kimmerian.
MJ12 Thraco-Kimmerian scores Macedonians(except Nortwest),Greeks mainlands(except few samples),Albanians,Torbeshi,Vlachs,Pomaks(few samples)Bulgarian(3 samples rest are scores DA195) and Serbian sample only from Macedonia.
Other group is Scythian DA195 , on top is Montenegrins,Bosnians,Bosniaks,Serbians,Romanians, Pomaks(few samples) and majority of Bulgarian samples.

https://i.imgur.com/sjiQBpR.jpg



I got more Thraco-Kimmerian, even I am by origin Serb from todays Croatia, the most westernmost ethnic Serb community.


https://i.imgur.com/Y7vgoE3.jpg

[JohnnyP]

I got more Thraco-Kimmerian, even I am by origin Serb from todays Croatia, the most westernmost ethnic Serb community.


https://i.imgur.com/Y7vgoE3.jpg

Thats samples from K13 Ancient Eurogenes you can check it.

[Ion Basescul]

I got more Thraco-Kimmerian, even I am by origin Serb from todays Croatia, the most westernmost ethnic Serb community.


https://i.imgur.com/Y7vgoE3.jpg

You should try adding the supposedly Illyrian sample into the mix. It has the code I3313.

[Dušan]

Thats samples from K13 Ancient Eurogenes you can check it.

Yes, I know, I used them.
It is not suprise, because our deep origin is from central Balkan, some ancestors possibly from Northern Macedonia.

[JohnnyP]

There's also DA198 who shows another gradient in the Hungarian Scythians and it's even more Southern than MJ12.

I ran them against basic components some time ago.

https://i.imgur.com/4nLtQKY.png

https://i.imgur.com/HZaU0XO.png

Yeah also 198 even more southern and 197 similar to 195.
In 550BC thats territory of Dacia or maybe Illyria, the place where they are found.

[Dušan]

You should try adding the supposedly Illyrian sample into the mix. It has the code I3313.

Didn't manage to find that.

Please, post that sample.

[Ion Basescul]

Yeah also 198 even more southern and 197 similar to 195.
In 550BC thats territory of Dacia or maybe Illyria, the place where they are found.

They were mostly local in any case, irrespective of the tribe they adhered to. Scythians had less Farmer admixture.


Didn't manage to find that.

Please, post that sample.

I3313_Dalmatia_Bronze_Age,36.73,13.11,23.57,8.04,1 5.67,2.87,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

[JohnnyP]

They were mostly local in any case, irrespective of the tribe they adhered to. Scythians had less Farmer admixture.



I3313_Dalmatia_Bronze_Age,36.73,13.11,23.57,8.04,1 5.67,2.87,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

Yeah i put this sample with modern averages
Target: Scythian_HUN:DA195
Distance: 1.9945% / 0.01994499 | ADC: 0.25x
46.6 Macedonian
19.4 Italian_Northeast_o
16.4 Spanish_Soria
11.6 French_Corsica_o
3.4 Romanian
2.0 Bosnian
0.4 Yukpa
0.2 Ju_hoan_North

Distance to: Scythian_HUN:DA195
0.02784575 Romanian
0.02971606 Montenegrin
0.03159329 Macedonian
0.03216972 Bulgarian
0.03239919 Serbian
0.03333773 Italian_Northeast
0.03677218 Moldavian
0.03869362 Bosnian
0.03893732 French_Provence
0.04011982 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04051391 Italian_Veneto
0.04184012 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige


Also on K13 Ancient
Target: DA195_Hungary_Scythian
Distance: 1.0950% / 1.09498935 | ADC: 0.25x
52.8 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
15.4 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian
14.4 SZ5.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
9.4 BR1_Hungary_Mako_Culture_2100_BC_2100_BC
4.8 SZ20_szolad_hungary_longobard
1.4 I7426_iberia
1.2 Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a
0.6 Ma’lta_South_Central0Siberia_22.000_BC

[Dušan]

They were mostly local in any case, irrespective of the tribe they adhered to. Scythians had less Farmer admixture.



I3313_Dalmatia_Bronze_Age,36.73,13.11,23.57,8.04,1 5.67,2.87,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00


Only 3%.

https://i.imgur.com/PvCMLGE.jpg

[Dick]

Target: Dick
Distance: 2.5746% / 2.57462150 | ADC: 0.25x
32.4 RISE569_Early_Medieval_Czech_2000_years_F_H1af2
32.2 DA195_Hungary_Scythian
22.6 SZ20_szolad_hungary_longobard
10.4 I7426_iberia
2.4 ArmeniaCA_I1631_Armenia_425004050_BC


Distance to: Dick
12.47851854 DA195_Hungary_Scythian
14.60678010 SZ5.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
15.64177819 RISE569_Early_Medieval_Czech_2000_years_F_H1af2
16.60973284 SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
16.78277465 SZ18_szolad_hungary_longobard
17.15414017 scy301_scythian_Moldova_390_205bce
17.32756258 DA191_Hungary_Scythian_550_BC_550_bc
17.68511026 BR2_Hungary_1200_BC
18.21496157 CL63_collegno_italy_longobard
18.22487929 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
18.37294274 SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
18.75064066 Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a
18.91803967 CL53_collegno_italy_longobard
19.44728837 XyH3_XyH3
19.62415412 SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard
19.80746640 BR1_Hungary_Mako_Culture_2100_BC_2100_BC
20.06582979 DA199_Late_Medieval_Hungary
20.82105485 Hallstatt_Celt_DA112_Bylany_Czechia
20.95032995 IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1
21.13428080 SZ42_szolad_hungary_longobard
21.40877682 MJ13_West_Scythian_580_BC
21.62353868 SZ25_szolad_hungary_longobard
21.86518751 DA194_Hungary_Scythian
21.87558742 SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
21.89981107 CL47_collegno_italy_longobard

[Bosniensis]

Target: Dick
Distance: 2.5746% / 2.57462150 | ADC: 0.25x
32.4 RISE569_Early_Medieval_Czech_2000_years_F_H1af2
32.2 DA195_Hungary_Scythian
22.6 SZ20_szolad_hungary_longobard
10.4 I7426_iberia
2.4 ArmeniaCA_I1631_Armenia_425004050_BC


Distance to: Dick
12.47851854 DA195_Hungary_Scythian
14.60678010 SZ5.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
15.64177819 RISE569_Early_Medieval_Czech_2000_years_F_H1af2
16.60973284 SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
16.78277465 SZ18_szolad_hungary_longobard
17.15414017 scy301_scythian_Moldova_390_205bce
17.32756258 DA191_Hungary_Scythian_550_BC_550_bc
17.68511026 BR2_Hungary_1200_BC
18.21496157 CL63_collegno_italy_longobard
18.22487929 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
18.37294274 SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
18.75064066 Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a
18.91803967 CL53_collegno_italy_longobard
19.44728837 XyH3_XyH3
19.62415412 SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard
19.80746640 BR1_Hungary_Mako_Culture_2100_BC_2100_BC
20.06582979 DA199_Late_Medieval_Hungary
20.82105485 Hallstatt_Celt_DA112_Bylany_Czechia
20.95032995 IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1
21.13428080 SZ42_szolad_hungary_longobard
21.40877682 MJ13_West_Scythian_580_BC
21.62353868 SZ25_szolad_hungary_longobard
21.86518751 DA194_Hungary_Scythian
21.87558742 SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
21.89981107 CL47_collegno_italy_longobard

https://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/9f11d7f6.gif

[vbnetkhio]

I noticed that Balkans are split on two groups when comes to closest samples on K13 Ancient, its Scythian Hungary DA195 and MJ12 Thraco-Kimmerian.

these are very mixed samples, so it makes no sense to use them in models imo.

for measuring these influences i would use:
1 Ancient North Balkanian (Illyrians, Moldovan Scythians, Proto Villanovan) - they were similar to today's North Italians
2 Ancient South Balkanian(BGR_IA, Mycenaeans) - they were similar to today's South Italians, but more neolithic
3 Bronze/Iron Age Steppe (Sintashta, Andronovo, Srubnaya, Sarmatians) - not really similar to anybody today, these were the pure, unadmixed Scytho-Sarmatians.

Thraco Cimmerian is a mix of groups 2 and 3, as the name says, and the Hungarian Scythian is a mix of 1,2,3. plus possibly some iron age West and East European influences.

[JohnnyP]

these are very mixed samples, so it makes no sense to use them in models imo.

for measuring these influences i would use:
1 Ancient North Balkanian (Illyrians, Moldovan Scythians, Proto Villanovan) - they were similar to today's North Italians
2 Ancient South Balkanian(BGR_IA, Mycenaeans) - they were similar to today's South Italians, but more neolithic
3 Bronze/Iron Age Steppe (Sintashta, Andronovo, Srubnaya, Sarmatians) - not really similar to anybody today, these were the pure, unadmixed Scytho-Sarmatians.

Thraco Cimmerian is a mix of groups 2 and 3, as the name says, and the Hungarian Scythian is a mix of 1,2,3. plus possibly some iron age West and East European influences.

I think they were not mixed so much ,Hungarian samples , except DA197.
https://i.imgur.com/b6mF5ez.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zuAyWsE.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

I think they were not mixed so much ,Hungarian samples , except DA197.
https://i.imgur.com/b6mF5ez.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zuAyWsE.jpg

what's eactly Balkans_IA in this calc?

[Dick]

these are very mixed samples, so it makes no sense to use them in models imo.

for measuring these influences i would use:
1 Ancient North Balkanian (Illyrians, Moldovan Scythians, Proto Villanovan) - they were similar to today's North Italians
2 Ancient South Balkanian(BGR_IA, Mycenaeans) - they were similar to today's South Italians, but more neolithic
3 Bronze/Iron Age Steppe (Sintashta, Andronovo, Srubnaya, Sarmatians) - not really similar to anybody today, these were the pure, unadmixed Scytho-Sarmatians.

Thraco Cimmerian is a mix of groups 2 and 3, as the name says, and the Hungarian Scythian is a mix of 1,2,3. plus possibly some iron age West and East European influences.

How reliable are these gedmatch components nowadays. I’m so used to G25 that I find this like the Stone Age or is G25 the same except it’s based on co ordinates ?

[JohnnyP]

what's eactly Balkans_IA in this calc?

BGR_IA

[vbnetkhio]

How reliable are these gedmatch components nowadays. I’m so used to G25 that I find this like the Stone Age or is G25 the same except it’s based on co ordinates ?

k13 and g25 oracles are usually very smilar. g25 is like the pca version of k13

[vbnetkhio]

I think they were not mixed so much ,Hungarian samples , except DA197.
https://i.imgur.com/b6mF5ez.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zuAyWsE.jpg

DA195 has Balkan, Baltic, England_IA and Pakistan_IA influence, how is that not mixed?

[Pubiczar]

DA195 has Balkan, Baltic, England_IA and Pakistan_IA influence, how is that not mixed?

It's just a reflection of his more northern like structure than Balkans IA. You can't expect a Pannonian IA sample to be the same with an IA sample from Bulgaria when Bulgaria and Pannonia are so far apart do you?

The same will be reflected with IA Bulgaria as well if you try to model it with IA Greeks from the colony of Empuries. IA Bulgaria is not a mixed sample but will come up with additional Nordic and Baltic admixture in contrast to IA Greeks simply because it's less Neolithic and more Steppe than the Greeks.

[Bosniensis]

Strong EHG from Yamnaya clearly shows that Dacians mixed with Scythians (who are Yamnaya 60%+) even in earlier period, Western Balkan communities however who were mostly predominantly Anatolia_N
got halved with Avars in 6th century and other Yamnaya-like invaders.

DA195 is close to modern Balkan pops for the reason it used to hold the same Predominantly Anatolia_N however it mixed with Yamnaya earlier then Balkan folk, so you have basically match with Romanians, N.Macedonains and Serbs from B.C. period.

[Pubiczar]

Because I like visual representation of things...

https://i.postimg.cc/mgwbbqL4/scythians-IA.png (https://postimages.org/)

There clearly three distinguishable cluster here, one is North-Italian like and probably native. The other is Germanic and more specifically Eastern Germanic. And the last is the Eastern European cluster of the Scythians from Ukraine. I dind't plot them on this map but you can do that by yourself and you will see that they plot around the circle on the map with their name.

Then we see a cluster of mutts as it seems, consisting of DA195, SCY301 AND SCY311 and probably what we see here is the early make up of the Balkan cluster so probably I was wrong about DA195 as unmixed sample.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

I'm absurdly close to DA195, to a point where I'm actually closer to it than to modern K13 samples.

Distance to: Fellow
4.40285135 DA195_Hungary_Scythian
9.94852753 SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
10.11320424 CL49_collegno_italy_longobard
10.63158032 SZ18_szolad_hungary_longobard
11.25890758 SZ5.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
11.63902917 SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
12.61737294 SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard
12.63951344 DA199_Late_Medieval_Hungary
12.85994168 CL63_collegno_italy_longobard
12.91634623 IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1
13.59273335 CL53_collegno_italy_longobard
14.37973922 BR2_Hungary_1200_BC
14.48598288 SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
14.80151681 CL47_collegno_italy_longobard
14.86283620 CL57_collegno_italy_longobard
15.18022068 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century
15.34946253 RISE254_Szazhalombatta_Foldvar_Hungary_3631_years_ GHIJK_Z12203_J1c9
15.37402029 SZ37_szolad_hungary_longobard
15.75336155 scy301_scythian_Moldova_390_205bce
15.79859487 SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard
15.98100748 CL36_collegno_italy_longobard
16.46262130 SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard
16.52258152 I3313_Dalmatia_Bronze_Age
16.81082984 SZ32_szolad_hungary_longobard
17.47823790 CL23_collegno_italy_longobard