View Full Version : Bosnian 23&me+gedmatch results
Dorian
03-14-2020, 10:26 AM
Joannadi38's friend
Joannadi38's friend
https://i.postimg.cc/8cNKTp7B/k.jpg
K13
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 30.39
2 North_Atlantic 24.26
3 West_Med 17.01
4 East_Med 11.46
5 West_Asian 11.19
6 Oceanian 2.1
7 Red_Sea 1.87
8 East_Asian 0.89
9 Amerindian 0.84
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Moldavian 4.48
2 Serbian 6.04
3 Croatian 7.36
4 Romanian 8.15
5 Hungarian 9.33
6 Bulgarian 9.85
7 Austrian 12.6
8 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.32
9 East_German 13.55
10 South_Polish 14.56
11 Ukrainian 14.83
12 Polish 17.84
13 Southwest_Russian 18.24
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 18.26
15 Greek_Thessaly 18.4
16 West_German 18.65
17 Russian_Smolensk 19.88
18 South_Dutch 20.15
19 Estonian_Polish 20.6
20 French 20.64
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.9% Moldavian + 12.1% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.98
2 87.1% Moldavian + 12.9% Tuscan @ 3.03
3 88.4% Moldavian + 11.6% Central_Greek @ 3.05
4 88.7% Moldavian + 11.3% West_Sicilian @ 3.07
5 90% Moldavian + 10% South_Italian @ 3.09
6 74.5% Moldavian + 25.5% Bulgarian @ 3.14
7 89.2% Moldavian + 10.8% East_Sicilian @ 3.15
8 86.7% Moldavian + 13.3% North_Italian @ 3.15
9 85.1% Moldavian + 14.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.17
10 70.4% Moldavian + 29.6% Romanian @ 3.18
11 93.2% Moldavian + 6.8% Sardinian @ 3.24
12 92% Moldavian + 8% Italian_Jewish @ 3.31
13 92.1% Moldavian + 7.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.34
14 92.2% Moldavian + 7.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.37
15 93.2% Moldavian + 6.8% Cyprian @ 3.42
16 93% Moldavian + 7% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.45
17 93.1% Moldavian + 6.9% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.47
18 90.6% Moldavian + 9.4% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.51
19 63.9% Moldavian + 36.1% Serbian @ 3.52
20 79.4% Croatian + 20.6% Central_Greek @ 3.54
K15
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 19.58
2 Baltic 16.69
3 Atlantic 14.6
4 Eastern_Euro 13.76
5 West_Med 12.44
6 East_Med 11.26
7 West_Asian 7.76
8 Oceanian 1.98
9 Red_Sea 1.21
10 Amerindian 0.39
11 Southeast_Asian 0.34
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 4.2
2 Moldavian 6.03
3 Romanian 6.75
4 Hungarian 7.67
5 Croatian 8.11
6 Bulgarian 9.25
7 Austrian 9.34
8 East_German 11.88
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.29
10 South_Polish 13.92
11 Ukrainian 14.02
12 Greek_Thessaly 15.37
13 West_German 16.48
14 Polish 16.5
15 South_Dutch 16.77
16 French 16.83
17 Greek 16.93
18 North_Italian 17.34
19 Ukrainian_Belgorod 17.49
20 Russian_Smolensk 17.51
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.1% Serbian + 34.9% Moldavian @ 3.18
2 98.1% Serbian + 1.9% Papuan @ 3.43
3 97.7% Serbian + 2.3% NAN_Melanesian @ 3.49
4 78.7% Moldavian + 21.3% Tuscan @ 3.54
5 85.8% Serbian + 14.2% Ukrainian @ 3.55
6 85.2% Serbian + 14.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.57
7 77.9% Moldavian + 22.1% North_Italian @ 3.65
8 91.8% Serbian + 8.2% Erzya @ 3.73
9 82.2% Moldavian + 17.8% West_Sicilian @ 3.76
10 88.2% Serbian + 11.8% South_Polish @ 3.8
11 90.8% Serbian + 9.2% Southwest_Russian @ 3.81
12 80.1% Serbian + 19.9% Croatian @ 3.81
13 92.1% Serbian + 7.9% Estonian @ 3.81
14 92.8% Serbian + 7.2% Lithuanian @ 3.81
15 90.7% Serbian + 9.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.82
16 91.8% Serbian + 8.2% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.83
17 60.2% Ukrainian + 39.8% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.86
18 80.1% Serbian + 19.9% Hungarian @ 3.87
19 92.4% Serbian + 7.6% Estonian_Polish @ 3.89
20 91% Serbian + 9% Polish @ 3.89
MDLP K16
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 27.79
2 NorthEastEuropean 27.53
3 Neolithic 26.16
4 Steppe 17.75
5 NearEast 0.75
6 Siberian 0.01
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Croat (Croatia) 3.42
2 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.8
3 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.9
4 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.99
5 Hungarian (Budapest) 3.99
6 Hungarian (Hungary) 4.58
7 Slovenian (Slovenia) 4.92
8 Serbian (Serbia) 5.56
9 Cossack (Zaporozhie) 5.9
10 Slovak (Slovakia) 6.07
11 German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) 6.28
12 Moldavian (Molodva) 6.41
13 Czech (Czechia) 6.56
14 Austrian (Austria) 6.65
15 Pole (EastPoland) 6.79
16 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 6.84
17 Pole (Wroclaw) 6.92
18 German (SouthGermany) 7.07
19 Romanian (Apuseni) 7.07
20 Ukrainians_west (WestUkraine) 7.36
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.7% Sorb (Lusatia) + 46.3% Bulgarian (Bulgaria) @ 2.81
2 63.2% Hungarian (Budapest) + 36.8% Serbian (Serbia) @ 2.88
3 56.7% Pole (EastPoland) + 43.3% Bulgarian (Bulgaria) @ 2.91
4 74.3% Serbian (Serbia) + 25.7% Lithuanian (Lithuania) @ 2.93
5 74.5% Hungarian (Budapest) + 25.5% Macedonian (Macedonia) @ 2.93
6 69.6% Hungarian (Hungary) + 30.4% Bulgarian (Bulgaria) @ 2.96
7 84.3% Hungarian (Budapest) + 15.7% Italian (Bergamo) @ 2.99
8 68.4% Serbian (Serbia) + 31.6% Belarusian (Belarus) @ 2.99
9 70% Hungarian (Budapest) + 30% Montenegrian (Montenegro) @ 3
10 53.1% Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) + 46.9% Hungarian (Budapest) @ 3.02
11 82.8% Hungarian (Budapest) + 17.2% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 3.02
12 60.3% Slovak (Slovakia) + 39.7% Bulgarian (Bulgaria) @ 3.03
13 57.6% Hungarian (Hungary) + 42.4% Serbian (Serbia) @ 3.06
14 55.3% Bulgarian (Bulgaria) + 44.7% Belarusian (Zhytkavichy_Homel) @ 3.06
15 70% Hungarian (Hungary) + 30% Macedonian (Macedonia) @ 3.11
16 81.7% Hungarian (Hungary) + 18.3% Greek (Thessaloniki) @ 3.11
17 76.9% Sorb (Lusatia) + 23.1% Greek (Greece) @ 3.11
18 79% Hungarian (Hungary) + 21% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 3.14
19 61% Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) + 39% Hungarian (Hungary) @ 3.15
20 76.2% Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) + 23.8% Sorb (Lusatia) @ 3.15
Dodecad K12b
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_European 40.69
2 Atlantic_Med 28.35
3 Caucasus 20.14
4 Gedrosia 4.86
5 Southwest_Asian 2.47
6 East_Asian 2.19
7 Northwest_African 0.93
8 South_Asian 0.35
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 8.35
2 Romanians (Behar) 10.17
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 12.05
4 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.17
5 German (Dodecad) 12.71
6 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 16.91
7 Dutch (Dodecad) 18.33
8 French (Dodecad) 18.78
9 French (HGDP) 19.01
10 N_Italian (Dodecad) 20.15
11 O_Italian (Dodecad) 20.28
12 Kent (1000Genomes) 20.47
13 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 20.57
14 English (Dodecad) 20.78
15 British_Isles (Dodecad) 21.85
16 Cornwall (1000Genomes) 22.74
17 North_Italian (HGDP) 23
18 British (Dodecad) 23.03
19 Argyll (1000Genomes) 23.06
20 Swedish (Dodecad) 23.1
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.1% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 48.9% German (Dodecad) @ 2.67
2 51.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 48.6% German (Dodecad) @ 2.74
3 55.9% Romanians (Behar) + 44.1% German (Dodecad) @ 2.83
4 66.6% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.4% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.86
5 66.4% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 33.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.89
6 76.5% Hungarians (Behar) + 23.5% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.89
7 72% Hungarians (Behar) + 28% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.92
8 75.6% Hungarians (Behar) + 24.4% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 2.99
9 70.6% Romanians (Behar) + 29.4% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3
10 58.9% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 41.1% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.11
11 80.4% Hungarians (Behar) + 19.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 3.2
12 75.3% Hungarians (Behar) + 24.7% TSI30 (Metspalu) @ 3.22
13 80.5% Hungarians (Behar) + 19.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 3.28
14 65.2% Romanians (Behar) + 34.8% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.3
15 66.1% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 33.9% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.34
16 60.9% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 39.1% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.43
17 63.4% Romanians (Behar) + 36.6% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 3.47
18 54.7% TSI30 (Metspalu) + 45.3% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.47
19 70.9% Romanians (Behar) + 29.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 3.49
20 60.7% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 39.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.49
https://i.postimg.cc/gJhgPw4T/unknown-1.png (https://postimages.org/)
joanna_38
03-14-2020, 10:40 AM
bump
A very average Serb. Does she looks so?
CommonSense
03-14-2020, 02:34 PM
2 98.1% Serbian + 1.9% Papuan @ 3.43
That high Oceanian is noise because of the low SNP count. I saw results of a Bosniak from Romanija (eastern Bosnia) and he also got such mixed-mode oracle populations.
joanna_38
03-14-2020, 02:44 PM
A very average Serb. Does she looks so?
She looks rather "asian" but she's not. She has very small eyes.
She looks rather "asian" but she's not. She has very small eyes.
Intriguing ;)
Is there any Serb that gets actual Serbia first, not Bosnia and Croatia? Seem to be super rare lmao.
Dušan
03-14-2020, 03:18 PM
Is there any Serb that gets actual Serbia first, not Bosnia and Croatia? Seem to be super rare lmao.
Serbian average on Eurogenes is false and outdated.
CommonSense
03-14-2020, 03:18 PM
She looks rather "asian" but she's not. She has very small eyes.
Did she tell you where exactly her ancestors are from?
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 03:23 PM
Serbian average on Eurogenes is false and outdated.
I don't remember when I saw last time a Serb who is located more southern than Serbian square on K15 map, and I have seen tons of Serbian results. Exception are only 2-3 Montenegrins who were little more southern than Serbian square.
Dušan
03-14-2020, 03:26 PM
I don't remember when I saw last time a Serb who is located more southern than Serbian square on K15 map, and I have seen tons of Serbian results. Exception are only 2-3 Montenegrins who were little more southern than Serbian square.
This is old Serbian average on Eurogenes:
North_Atlantic 27.10
Baltic 27.32
Equal N.Atlantic and Baltic? This is so ignorant.
I saw several tens of our results, and Baltic is always higher than N.Atlantic.
Moje ime
03-14-2020, 03:28 PM
Is there any Serb that gets actual Serbia first, not Bosnia and Croatia? Seem to be super rare lmao.
There is me.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 03:29 PM
This is old Serbian average on Eurogenes:
North_Atlantic 27.10
Baltic 27.32
Equal N.Atlantic and Baltic? This is so ignorant.
I saw several tens of our results, and Baltic is always higher than N.Atlantic.
That is idiotic.
Serbian Baltic in reality on average is about 30%.
vbnetkhio
03-14-2020, 03:29 PM
This is old Serbian average on Eurogenes:
North_Atlantic 27.10
Baltic 27.32
Equal N.Atlantic and Baltic? This is so ignorant.
I saw several tens of our results, and Baltic is always higher than N.Atlantic.
that average isn't from academic samples. maybe they weren't published yet when k13 was made.
it's from some Serbs (or maybe just one Serb?) who sent ther raw data to Davidski.
vbnetkhio
03-14-2020, 03:40 PM
Serbian average on Eurogenes is false and outdated.
i think she meant the 23andme regions
Dušan
03-14-2020, 03:41 PM
Dont be offended, but how is possible that you are average, and all rest of us are eccentric?
https://i.imgur.com/Hv0kl0D.jpg
Your Celto-Germanic is very high, and Slavic low for Serbian people.
i think she menat the 23andme regions
She probably dislikes it when Serbs score more Northern components.
Moje ime
03-14-2020, 03:47 PM
Dont be offended, but how is possible that you are average, and all rest of us are eccentric?
https://i.imgur.com/Hv0kl0D.jpg
Your Celto-Germanic is very high, and Slavic low for Serbian people.
I'm not offended. I wonder what results were included in average we used till now, why only now it doesn't fit anymore? I guess there were Montenegrin Serbs results in old average.
Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia are vastly overrepresented in DNA testing (just like Dalmatian and BiH Croats), while southern and eastern Serbia is severely undertested.
Not many results from central Serbia either.
In Croatia Slavonia, entire western and northern Croatia except Zagorje is totally undertested.
It has to do with nationalism. Dinaric Slavs both Croats and Serbs test the most and they are pretty similar people (obsessed with origins and tribalism)
She looks rather "asian" but she's not. She has very small eyes.
Das raciss. Is she from Bosnia?
Dušan
03-14-2020, 05:06 PM
Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia are vastly overrepresented in DNA testing (just like Dalmatian and BiH Croats), while southern and eastern Serbia is severely undertested.
Not many results from central Serbia either.
In Croatia Slavonia, entire western and northern Croatia except Zagorje is totally undertested.
It has to do with nationalism. Dinaric Slavs both Croats and Serbs test the most and they are pretty similar people (obsessed with origins and tribalism)
Our regional diversity is very low. We are pretty homogeneous.
Your Bosnian and Dalmatian Croats score with Serbs, and kaykavian Croats with Slovenes and Czechs.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 05:13 PM
Our regional diversity is very low. We are pretty homogeneous.
Your Bosnian and Dalmatian Croats score with Serbs, and kaykavian Croats with Slovenes and Czechs.
Why Croatian square on K15 map is located equally northern as Austrian square? Because obvious there is a lot of kaykavian samples in Croatian average. It's simlpy impossible that shtokavian Croatians are equally northern as Austrians.
Our regional diversity is very low. We are pretty homogeneous.
Your Bosnian and Dalmatian Croats score with Serbs, and kaykavian Croats with Slovenes and Czechs.
Only with western Serbs, excluding Montenegrins. Eastern Serbs are closer to Romanians and Bulgarians.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 05:20 PM
Only with western Serbs, excluding Montenegrins. Eastern Serbs are closer to Romanians and Bulgarians.
Who are Eastern Serbs? Serbified Timok Vlachs? Torlaks? Kosovo Serbs?
Why Croatian square on K15 map is located equally northern as Austrian square? Because obvious there is a lot of kaykavian samples in Croatian average. It's simlpy impossible that shtokavian Croatians are equally northern as Austrians.
That's not the reason, reason is Balto-Slavs shift more northern than Celto-Germanics on similar latitude. West German average for example is pretty southern, and SW and south central Germans really plot like that.
Anyway, there are lot of very northern shifted southern Croats, but they shift towards eastern rather than central Europe.
Who are Eastern Serbs? Serbified Timok Vlachs? Torlaks? Kosovo Serbs?
Serb average from academic papers. Sorry if that bothers you.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 05:26 PM
That's not the reason, reason is Balto-Slavs shift more northern than Celto-Germanics on similar latitude. West German average for example is pretty southern, and SW and south central Germans really plot like that.
Anyway, there are lot of very northern shifted southern Croats, but they shift towards eastern rather than central Europe.
I have seen positions of Zagorci on your map. They are more northern then Croatian square and some are quite more northern. That means Croatians who are not Zagorci must be pretty more southern than Zagorci to square for average be positioned where is.
Serb average from academic papers. Sorry if that bothers you.
I don't trust any study done on Serbs by non-Serbs.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 05:28 PM
I don't trust any study done on Serbs by non-Serbs.
+1
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 05:34 PM
That's not the reason, reason is Balto-Slavs shift more northern than Celto-Germanics on similar latitude. West German average for example is pretty southern, and SW and south central Germans really plot like that.
Anyway, there are lot of very northern shifted southern Croats, but they shift towards eastern rather than central Europe.
This is one of K15 bullshits.
K13 is much more realistic, and have more balanced components.
K12b is even worse than K15. On K12b Hungarians are more northern that Irish people, and it's well known that Irish people are significant more northern on most serious calculator K13.
vbnetkhio
03-14-2020, 05:37 PM
I don't trust any study done on Serbs by non-Serbs.
this is the average of 14 Belgrade Serbs from that paper. it's not bad. and it's not particularly close to Bulgarians
NorthAtlantic 24.42
Baltic 28.12
WestMed 17.06
WestAsian 9.06
EastMed 17.09
RedSea 1.48
SouthAsian 0.45
EastAsian 0.36
Siberian 0.73
Amerindian 0.56
Oceanian 0.54
NortheastAfrican 0.10
Sub0Saharan 0.04
I have seen positions of Zagorci on your map. They are more northern then Croatian square and some are quite more northern. That means Croatians who are not Zagorci must be pretty more southern than Zagorci to square for average be positioned where is.
Nope, since there are even ''Serbs'' you guys posted who are very close to Croatian average. Max Soldo is from Livno and scores almost 38 Baltic, he plots right on Croatian dot and he is J2b2 from both sides.
Southern Croats contain both very Slavic and very Balkan influenced individuals and that's why I made two pretty different K13 averages for them.
I don't trust any study done on Serbs by non-Serbs.
For same reason I don't trust anything done by Serbs, when it's known which ideological agenda is hidden behind many of Poreklo amateur geneticists.
this is the average of 14 Belgrade Serbs from that paper. it's not bad. and it's not particularly close to Bulgarians
NorthAtlantic 24.42
Baltic 28.12
WestMed 17.06
WestAsian 9.06
EastMed 17.09
RedSea 1.48
SouthAsian 0.45
EastAsian 0.36
Siberian 0.73
Amerindian 0.56
Oceanian 0.54
NortheastAfrican 0.10
Sub0Saharan 0.04
Same paper states Serbs and Montenegrins fall between SW Slavic (Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian) and SE Slavic (Macedonian and Bulgarian) cluster, and that is only logical thing.
vbnetkhio
03-14-2020, 05:54 PM
Our regional diversity is very low. We are pretty homogeneous.
Your Bosnian and Dalmatian Croats score with Serbs, and kaykavian Croats with Slovenes and Czechs.
yes. South Croats range from 25% to 37% Baltic, Serbs from 24%-35% . and the pre-Slavic part of both of us is Thracian-Greek like.
Kaykavian Croats, from what i've seen, either have ~35% baltic, or if they have ~30 Baltic then they always have over 30 Atlantic. and their pre Slavic part is different, it has less East med and West Asian.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?299002-South-Slavic-amp-neighbours-Eurogenes-results&p=6474991&viewfull=1#post6474991
Dušan
03-14-2020, 05:59 PM
yes. South Croats range from 25% to 37% Baltic, Serbs from 24%-35% . and the pre-Slavic part of both of us is Thracian-Greek like.
Kaykavian Croats, from what i've seen, either have ~35% baltic, or if they have ~30 Baltic then they always have over 30 Atlantic. and their pre Slavic part is different, it has less East med and West Asian.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?299002-South-Slavic-amp-neighbours-Eurogenes-results&p=6474991&viewfull=1#post6474991
+1
Kaykavian Croats are very Celto-Germanic influenced, with low Paleo-Balkan of different source, unlike štokavian Croats.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 06:01 PM
yes. South Croats range from 25% to 37% Baltic, Serbs from 24%-35% . and the pre-Slavic part of both of us is Thracian-Greek like.
Kaykavian Croats, from what i've seen, either have ~35% baltic, or if they have ~30 Baltic then they always have over 30 Atlantic. and their pre Slavic part is different, it has less East med and West Asian.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?299002-South-Slavic-amp-neighbours-Eurogenes-results&p=6474991&viewfull=1#post6474991
I wonder is there worse nightmare for Feiichy than this. :)
Dušan
03-14-2020, 06:07 PM
I wonder is there worse nightmare for Feiichy than this. :)
;)
yes. South Croats range from 25% to 37% Baltic, Serbs from 24%-35% . and the pre-Slavic part of both of us is Thracian-Greek like.
Kaykavian Croats, from what i've seen, either have ~35% baltic, or if they have ~30 Baltic then they always have over 30 Atlantic. and their pre Slavic part is different, it has less East med and West Asian.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?299002-South-Slavic-amp-neighbours-Eurogenes-results&p=6474991&viewfull=1#post6474991
Nope, no southern Croats plot like Montenegrins unless they have ancestry from there.
Montenegrins are nothing like any Croats. Deal with it.
And you Serbs are not homogenous at all. Ofcourse we have nothing to do with Thracians either.
I wonder is there worse nightmare for Feiichy than this. :)
I don't believe any of 35% Baltic ''Serbs'' posted here is full Serb and I never will. As you started, Serbs will soon reach 40% Baltic.
Your Baltic score is constantly rising ever since Poreklo geneticists started searching most outlying Serbs (in northern direction ofcourse) they can find.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 06:27 PM
Nope, no southern Croats plot like Montenegrins unless they have ancestry from there.
Montenegrins are nothing like any Croats. Deal with it.
And you Serbs are not homogenous at all. Ofcourse we have nothing to do with Thracians either.
Feiichy against science...
I like the fact that our paleo-Balkan ancestors (Serbian and South Croatian) were Thracians! :thumb001:
Feiichy against science...
I like the fact that our paleo-Balkan ancestors (Serbian and South Croatian) were Thracians! :thumb001:
will you commit suicide now?
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sergey_Koshel/publication/281516924/figure/fig6/AS:341562191040518@1458446180721/Genetic-structure-of-the-Balto-Slavic-populations-within-a-European-context-according-to.png
https://i.imgur.com/lwdBNts.png
Dušan
03-14-2020, 06:31 PM
Nope, no southern Croats plot like Montenegrins unless they have ancestry from there.
Montenegrins are nothing like any Croats. Deal with it.
And you Serbs are not homogenous at all. Ofcourse we have nothing to do with Thracians either.
Yes, we are very homogenous, unlike your artificial nation.
Same Slavic and same paleo-Balkan Thracian source for all Serbs.
@Feiichy, why are you so agitated? Those are the results of one particular fucking person. No one had an agenda, the OP is not even a Serb. Unless someone talks shit about your country or spreads misinformation, why bother so much?
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 06:33 PM
I don't believe any of 35% Baltic ''Serbs'' posted here is full Serb and I never will. As you started, Serbs will soon reach 40% Baltic.
Your Baltic score is constantly rising ever since Poreklo geneticists started searching most outlying Serbs (in northern direction ofcourse) they can find.
Of course they are full Serbs.
Serb from Dubica with 34.95% and from Glina with 34.93% Baltic have almost same Baltic+NA as HungryLion, and they are from same region. Only difference is HL has little lower Baltic, but higher NA than them.
Dalmatian Serb with 35.28% Baltic has low North_Atlantic. I have seen that among some Bosniaks and South Croatians. He is just Dušan with little higher Baltic, they have same NA.
Yes, we are very homogenous, unlike your artificial nation.
Same Slavic and same paleo-Balkan Thracian source for all Serbs.
Nothing homogenous, there is ocean of genetic difference between Serbs like HungryLion and Morlak for example. Deal with it.
Of course they are full Serbs.
Serb from Dubica with 34.95% and from Glina with 34.93% have almost same Baltic+NA as HungryLion, and they are from same region. Only difference is HL has little lower Baltic, but higher NA than them.
Dalmatian Serb with 35.28% Baltic has low North_Atlantic. I have seen that among some Bosniaks and South Croatians. He is just Dušan with little higher Baltic, they have same NA.
Your wishful thinking won't make it reality. You have no knowledge of their geneaology and I already explained you one of these ''pure Serbs''' has typical Croatian surname.
Pure Serbs from Serbia never score like that and for a good reason - because 35% Baltic isn't pure Serb result.
You need outliers far from Serb core lands to increase your northern scores- and it's increased because you mixed with your more northern neighbours.
@Feiichy, why are you so agitated? Those are the results of one particular fucking person. No one had an agenda, the OP is not even a Serb. Unless someone talks shit about your country or spreads misinformation, why bother so much?
Members like Pribislav have agenda and he should have been banned for trolling other ethnicities as he did with his previous account.
vbnetkhio
03-14-2020, 06:40 PM
Nope, no southern Croats plot like Montenegrins unless they have ancestry from there.
Montenegrins are nothing like any Croats. Deal with it.
And you Serbs are not homogenous at all. Ofcourse we have nothing to do with Thracians either.
Insuperable posted a Livno Croat with 25% Baltic, i believe. and on the other hand Max soldo is also from Livno and he's 37.
and you also noticed some time ago most Croats don't have a North Italian pre-Slavic admixture, but something more southern. did you forget that now?
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 06:41 PM
Your wishful thinking won't make it reality. You have no knowledge of their geneaology and I already explained you one of these ''pure Serbs''' has typical Croatian surname.
Pure Serbs from Serbia never score like that and for a good reason - because 35% Baltic isn't pure Serb result.
You need outliers far from Serb core lands to increase your northern scores- and it's increased because you mixed with your more northern neighbours.
Here we go again...
I gave you evidences that Došen is Serbian surname as well.
Došen from Banija is I2-PH908, same as other Došen Serb from Lika.
Insuperable posted a Livno Croat with 25% Baltic, i believe. and on the other hand Max soldo is also from Livno and he's 37.
and you also noticed some time ago most Croats don't have a North Italian pre-Slavic admixture, but something more southern. did you forget that now?
That's true, but it can simply mean Illyrians became more southern after Roman conquest. Bronze Age samples are quite far back, we need something younger.
Thracians never lived in dinaric alps
Dušan
03-14-2020, 06:46 PM
Members like Pribislav have agenda and he should have been banned for trolling other ethnicities as he did with his previous account.
What are you doing on thread Serbian 23&me+gedmatch results?
Is anyone mention Croats before you came?
Get the fuck out of here!
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 06:46 PM
Members like Pribislav have agenda and he should have been banned for trolling other ethnicities as he did with his previous account.
You speak bullshit. If you have an evidences that South Croatian paleo-Balkan dna is Illyrian bring them out!
What are you doing on thread Serbian 23&me+gedmatch results?
If anyone mention Croats before you came?
Get the fuck out of here!
This person gets Bosnia and Croatia before Serbia, like almost all Serbs I have seen.
Why the fuck you don't score Serbia first, maybe because you are orthodox converts since medieval times???
Almost all Croats from Bosnia score Croatia, usually first. But you Serbs score Serbia first very rarely.
23andme regions are based on IBD sharing fool.
It means Serbs who score Dalmatia share IBD (identity by descent) with Dalmatian CROATS.
This person gets Bosnia and Crpoatia before Serbia, like almost all Serbs I have seen.
Why the fuck you don't score Serbia first, maybe because you are orthodox converts since medieval times???
Or maybe because 23andme is not available in Serbia.
Or maybe because 23andme is not available in Serbia.
There are Serb test samples available on 23andme, for all Serbian regions.
Moje ime
03-14-2020, 06:52 PM
Dont be offended, but how is possible that you are average, and all rest of us are eccentric?
https://i.imgur.com/Hv0kl0D.jpg
Your Celto-Germanic is very high, and Slavic low for Serbian people.
From where are people with higher Celto-Germanic? Simo, Derventa, Milicevic, KK etc?
There are Serb test samples available on 23andme, for all Serbian regions.
The map is not based on self-reported ancestry of its customers?
You speak bullshit. If you have an evidences that South Croatian paleo-Balkan dna is Illyrian bring them out!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians
Now post some Thracian tribes from west Balkan coast and surroundings. Ofcourse you can't, because they never existed there.
Insuperable
03-14-2020, 06:52 PM
Nope, since there are even ''Serbs'' you guys posted who are very close to Croatian average. Max Soldo is from Livno and scores almost 38 Baltic, he plots right on Croatian dot and he is J2b2 from both sides.
Southern Croats contain both very Slavic and very Balkan influenced individuals and that's why I made two pretty different K13 averages for them.
Max Soldo is one of the more northern shifted Bosnian Croats. Why bring him to discussion? Croats are more heterogeneous than Serbs (big surprise) though Serbs are not that homogeneous as some Serbian members think they are. I guess that is what keeps bugging you.
Dušan
03-14-2020, 06:53 PM
This person gets Bosnia and Croatia before Serbia, like almost all Serbs I have seen.
Why the fuck you don't score Serbia first, maybe because you are orthodox converts since medieval times???
Almost all Croats from Bosnia score Croatia, usually first. But you Serbs score Serbia first very rarely.
23andme regions are based on IBD sharing fool.
It means Serbs who score Dalmatia share IBD (identity by descent) with Dalmatian CROATS.
Stop talking bulshit.
She got Zadar county.
If you didnt know part of Zadar county are majority Serb places, like Benkovac, Obrovac, Gračac and Srb.
Half of my origin is from that county.
Thats why she got Zadar county, not because fucking Croats.
The map is not based on self-reported ancestry of its customers?
Perhaps, but I don't see why would anyone lie about their ancestry on 23andme.
Dušan
03-14-2020, 06:55 PM
From where are people with higher Celto-Germanic? Simo, Derventa, Milicevic, KK etc?
Two are from Bosnia, one from Lika, other I dont know.
Max Soldo is one of the more northern shifted Bosnian Croats. Why bring him to discussion? Croats are more heterogeneous than Serbs (big surprise) though Serbs are not that homogeneous as some Serbian members think they are. I guess that is what keeps bugging you.
Based on what are Serbs more homogenous, what is relation between Montenegrin Serb results and Serbs like HungryLion and those that score 35% Baltic? Totally different.
Perhaps, but I don't see why would anyone lie about their ancestry on 23andme.
I mean that if most Serbs tested on 23andme are from Croatia and Bosnia, chances are they will get those regions first before the underrepresented Serbia. Besides, it's not really strange if most Bosnian and Croatian Serbs score their place of origin first.
Stop talking bulshit.
She got Zadar county.
If you didnt know part of Zadar county are majority Serb places, like Benkovac, Obrovac, Gračac and Srb.
Half of my origin is from that county.
Thats why she got Zadar county, not because fucking Croats.
Zadar samples are from Croats in that county, not Serbs.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 06:56 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians
Now post some Thracian tribes from west Balkan coast and surroundings. Ofcourse you can't, because they never existed there.
I thought on genetic evidences.
I mean that if most Serbs tested on 23andme are from Croatia and Bosnia, chances are they will get those regions first before the underrepresented Serbia. Besides, it's not really strange if most Bosnian and Croatian Serbs score their place of origin first.
Stears doesn't score Romania despite his half is from there. My guess is because he doesn't share IBD with Romanians who live in regions of his ancestry.
I thought on genetic evidences.
Already said my guess, Illyrians were pulled southeast genetically (more East Med) by Roman conquest and colonisation, thus becoming more like Iron Age Bulgarians (Thracians).
Insuperable
03-14-2020, 07:02 PM
Based on what are Serbs more homogenous, what is relation between Montenegrin Serb results and Serbs like HungryLion and those that score 35% Baltic? Totally different.
On average they seem to be more homogeneous. On average. No need to compare two individuals. Hungrylion is mixed no matter what somebody says. I suppose you are annoyed because of hypocrisy.
Stears doesn't score Romania despite his half is from there. My guess is because he doesn't share IBD with Romanians who live in regions of his ancestry.
I can't speak for his results but I don't see why is should score Serbia first when literally all of my known ancestors are from what is today Bosnian Federation, so that is also my strongest match. My top matches in Croatia are Split-Dalmatia and Šibenik-Knin, quite obviously why.
On average they seem to be more homogeneous. On average. No need to compare two individuals. Hungrylion is mixed no matter what somebody says. I suppose you are annoyed because of hypocrisy.
Okay, perhaps they are more homogenous. At lest I don't pretend we are homogenous, it's clear NW Croats and Dalmatians score differently, they don't look the same on average either obviously.
Renekton
03-14-2020, 07:05 PM
Sub
I can't speak for his results but I don't see why is should score Serbia first when literally all of my known ancestors are from what is today Bosnian Federation, so that is also my strongest match. My top matches in Croatia are Split-Dalmatia and Šibenik-Knin, quite obviously why.
Isn't majority of Serbia by origin from dinaric area anyway? If Serbs are so homogenous, they should all score Serbia since many Serbs from Serbia have origins from Herzegovina and Montenegro etc.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 07:10 PM
On average they seem to be more homogeneous. On average. No need to compare two individuals. Hungrylion is mixed no matter what somebody says. I suppose you are annoyed because of hypocrisy.
He is not mixed.
Another Serb from Banija. HL is just litlle western from him.
https://i.imgur.com/uglFng1.png
Serb from Dubica near Banija orange square (other Serbs - red Herzegovina, blue-purple Dalmatia, green Bosansko Grahovo), he is same northern as HL but more eastern.
https://i.imgur.com/Q0CaIYv.png
Isn't majority of Serbia by origin from dinaric area anyway? If Serbs are so homogenous, they should all score Serbia since many Serbs from Serbia have origins from Herzegovina and Montenegro etc.
Yes and I (as most other Serbs) do score Serbia, but that doesn't mean it should be number one match.
vbnetkhio
03-14-2020, 07:18 PM
i think it's like this, let's say there is, for example, 1000 Dalmatian Croats and Serbs in the 23andme database and only 10 Serbs from Zlatibor district. then a Serb from Zlatibor district tests on 23andme and he'll match at least 10 of those 1000 Dalmatians, and for example 5 of those 10 Zlatibor Serbs. and then he'll get Dalmatia county as his first region and Zlatibor as second. i think that's what happens.
i think it's like this, let's say there is, for example, 1000 Dalmatian Croats and Serbs in the 23andme database and only 10 Serbs from Zlatibor district. then a Serb from Zlatibor district tests on 23andme and he'll match at least 10 of those 1000 Dalmatians, and for example 5 of those 10 Zlatibor Serbs. and then he'll get Dalmatia county as his first region and Zlatibor as second. i think that's what happens.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Insuperable
03-14-2020, 07:19 PM
He is not mixed.
Another Serb from Banija. HL is just litlle western from him.
https://i.imgur.com/uglFng1.png
Serb from Dubica near Banija orange square (other Serbs - red Herzegovina, blue-purple Dalmatia, green Bosansko Grahovo), he is same northern as HL but more eastern.
https://i.imgur.com/Q0CaIYv.png
HL is on Austrian dot? Okay, Banovina Serbs are mixed.
Truth hurts. Thus let's accuse others for doing what your ancestors actually did.
Pitanje je sto se desilo sa katolickim zivljem Bosne nakon sto je pala pod Turke. Bosna je bila skoro u potpunosti "katolicka". Uz nesto pravoslavnih na istoku. Nakon 100-200 godina pod Turcima... na popisima vidimo "exploziju" pravoslavaca. Omjer se skoro pa okrenuo za 180 stupnjeva. Nesto sitno katolika je ostalo od nekadasnje apsolutne vecine, i imamo negdje podjednaki postotak pravoslavnih i muslimana. Jos 100 godina kasnije pa sve do negdje 50-ih, 60-ih godina 20. st. pravoslavci su u BIH relativna vecina sa nekih 42-44% u ukupnom broju stanovnika BIH. Sa nekih 23% katolika i 33% muslimana.
Pa se onda postavlja pitanje tko je koga "prekrstio". Gdje su nestali ti silni katolici u Bosni nakon samo 100 tinjak godina pod turskom upravom?
Duklja je bila sva katolička pod Barskom nadbiskupijom, osnovanom 1089. godine, dok je prostor buduće Raške od 1019. do 1219. bio pod Ohridskom arhiepiskopijom -->
https://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-ec/%D0%9...ic_1020_02.png
Vukan Nemanjić , koji je upravljao Zetom ka udioni knez, bio je katolik i naslijedio je titule katolika Vojisavljevića. Sinovi su mu bili pravoslavci, ali se u njihovo vrijeme pravoslavlje nije raširilo u Zeti. Zbog toga je poslije njih data na upravu katolkinji Jeleni Anžujskoj (1276 - 1309). Poslije nje Zetu dobijaju “mladi kraljevi“ (prijestolonasljednici) Nemanjići, koji su svi bili pravoslavni, no ni tada pravoslavlje nije prihvaćeno u Zeti. Balšići (izuzimajući posljednjeg) su katolici i priznaju papu. Jače pravoslavčenje započinje u vrijeme Crnojevića, koji su Zetsku mitropoliju spasili propasti i prenijeli joj sjedište iz Boke na Vranjinu , zatim na Cetinje. Pravoslavčenje se nastavilo i za osmanskog vakta.
Srpski istoričar Vladimir Ćorović piše u “Istorija Srpskog Naroda” -->
“Savremeni izveštaji donose dosta pojedinosti o tom, kako je u XVII veku katoličko stanovništvo osetno nazadovalo u unutrašnjosti Turske, i to manje u korist islama koliko u korist pravoslavlja. Sima Milutinović izneo je u svojoj Istoriji Crne Gore, da je cetinjski vladika Ruvim preveo u pravoslavlje Kuče, Drekaloviće i Bratonožiće. Ruvim je bio savremenik Pajsijev i sedeo je dugo na vladičanskoj stolici. Njegovu aktivnost potvrđuju i rimski izveštaji. Među Bjelopavlićima bilo je 1633. god. svega još 200 katoličkih kuća, a 1635. god. među Zetom i Moračom broj katoličkih duša nije prelazio mnogo preko hiljade. Piperi, koji su još 1610. god. smatrani skoro svi kao katolici, postali su isto većim delom pravoslavni. U Popovu do 1627. god. od 12 crkava katoličkih 7 je prešlo u pravoslavne ruke; sličnih pojava je bilo i u okolini Trebinja. Ima isto tako vesti o prelasku katolika u pravoslavlje u Sremu, oko Rume i Mitrovice. Glavni razlog za to bio je taj, što katoličko više sveštenstvo u većini nije smelo da živi pod Turcima, nego se zadržavalo mahom u susednim hrišćanskim zemljama.”
https://www.rastko.rs/rastko-bl/isto...ija/6_6_l.html
Htio sam reći da u Crnoj Gori nikad nije bilo “pokatoličavanja”, već je svaka aktivnost katoličke crkve bila samo pokušaj povratka stanovništva u katoličku vjeru.
I temat Dalmacije je bio pod Romejima sve do poslije polovice 11. stoljeća, kada i Duklja, pa je uvijek vrijedio latinski obred u Crkvi. Nakon raskola, kad su Romeji povratili Dalmaciju, poštivali su pripadnost tog područja Katoličkoj crkvi. Ne vidim zašto bi bilo drugačije po pitanju Duklje?
Jednostavno, Duklja/Zeta je bila katolička. Kasnije je izvršena pravoslavizacija stanovništva.
Duklja se odvojila prije šizme, a u vrijeme vizantijske rekonkiste polovinom XII vijeka nema ni jednog podatka da je ođe bilo pravoslavlja. Posljednja dva dukljanska kneza bili su katolici i vladali su kao štićenici vizantijskog cara Manojla I Komnina. Kad su Duklju uzeli Nemanjići, Vukan je uzeo titule Vojisavljevića i posta katolik. Tek Rastko Nemanjić ođe uvodi pravoslavlje 1219. Katedralni hram Zetske episkopije na Prevlaci podignut je na temeljima benediktinskog samostana.
https://www.portalanalitika.me/clana...icke-manastire
Ajmo se sad vratit na početak. Koja je logika mita o pokatoličavanju Srba (i Crnogoraca) zapadno od linije Drina-Tara-Komovi ? Logika je negirat konvertitstvo predaka --> “Nijesu naši preci prešli na pravoslavlje već su to vazda bili, a zli papa je dio njih pokatoličio“. To su bajke. PRECI SU NAM VJERSKI KONVERTITI.
Pribislav
03-14-2020, 07:23 PM
Okay. HL is on Austrian dot? Okay, Banovina Serbs are mixed.
Look at this calculator, HungryLion in comparation with some other Serbs from various regions. His result is completely normal, nothing weird.
https://i.imgur.com/Hv0kl0D.jpg
vbnetkhio
03-14-2020, 07:25 PM
Zadar samples are from Croats in that county, not Serbs.
23adnme believes in the "geographic principle",a Zadar county sample is anybody who reported all 4 grandparents from Zadar county, no matter the ethnicity.
and Krajina Serbs in the USA probably do even more dna tests than Dalmatian Croats
Insuperable
03-14-2020, 07:27 PM
Okay. Then all Croats are homogeneous too. Carry on then.
CommonSense
03-14-2020, 07:46 PM
My mom doesn't have any matches from Serbia despite the fact that her father is from Timočka Krajina. And that's on MyHeritage that can actually be purchased right here in Serbia. The amount of tested people is criminally low, making it natural for most Serbs to get the regions like the girl in the OP did.
Okay, perhaps they are more homogenous. At lest I don't pretend we are homogenous, it's clear NW Croats and Dalmatians score differently, they don't look the same on average either obviously.
I'm looking at the map of Croatia - NW Croatia is Istria, Primorje-Gorski Kotar and Karlovac?
Looks like 25% of the population live in the city of Zagreb and Zagreb county. The second largest part is Split-Dalmatia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_Croatia#Lists_of_counties
I'm being curious as to how small nations with a fairly small territory are considered "diverse".
I'm looking at the map of Croatia - NW Croatia is Istria, Primorje-Gorski Kotar and Karlovac?
Looks like 25% of the population live in the city of Zagreb and Zagreb county. The second largest part is Split-Dalmatia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_Croatia#Lists_of_counties
I'm being curious as to how small nations with a fairly small territory are considered "diverse".
Genetically speaking, NW Croatia is whereever Kajkavian Croatian is spoken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian
I don't think South Slav countries are diverse comparing to larger nations obviously, but there are some regional differences.
Genetically speaking, NW Croatia is whereever Kajkavian Croatian is spoken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian
I don't think South Slav countries are diverse comparing to larger nations obviously, but there are some regional differences.
And Chakavian? The very Northern part of the dark blue zone.
vbnetkhio
03-15-2020, 12:23 PM
Only with western Serbs, excluding Montenegrins. Eastern Serbs are closer to Romanians and Bulgarians.
this closeness to Bulgarians in balanovsky et al. is because the Bulgarian sample is a bit too Slavic, it's further north than Macedonians and Montenegrins! it should be at least on par with them, or maybe a bit more south.
remember, it's just 10-15 samples of each ethnicity. 100 samples would be perfect, but that would be too expensive to carry out.
the Serbian sample is ok, and there is nothing "eastern" about it. (in any sense. for example they don't have increased West Asian and East Med like the easternmost Balkanians)
https://i.imgur.com/dIjeCpL.png
The most interesting part of this paper is the IBD analysis. it shows that West, East and South Slavs are more closely related to each other than to any of their neighbours (Balts, Finnics, Volga populations, Caucasians, Greeks, West Europeans, Inter-Slavs(Hungarians, Romanians, Gagauz))
But the authors pretty much dismiss that, because, in their words, Hungarians, Romanians and Gagauz also share a lot with this Slavic cluster (but there's still a small noticeable distance mind you) and they are not Slavic speakers, so this method cannot realiably measure the expansion of early Slavic speakers :picard1:
they only took linguistics and genetics into consideration, completely ignoring everything else.
vbnetkhio
03-15-2020, 12:28 PM
IBD sharing of East-West Slavs with:
South Slavs31028 (41)
Baltic-speakers, Estonians22561 (40)
"Inter-Slavic" populations18203 (37)
West Europeans14569 (32)
North-East Europeans20166 (32)
Volga region populations28068 (30)
North Caucasus12583 (21)
IBD sharing of South Slavs with:
East-West Slavs31028 (41)
"Inter-Slavic" populations18669 (37)
West Europeans14245 (31)
Greeks13657 (30)
vbnetkhio
03-15-2020, 12:41 PM
Okay. Then all Croats are homogeneous too. Carry on then.
but there isn't a whole region where all Serbs are like HL. it's just individual results here and there.
and Croats have NW Croatia which is West European shifted as a region.
yes. South Croats range from 25% to 37% Baltic, Serbs from 24%-35% . and the pre-Slavic part of both of us is Thracian-Greek like.
Not in case of my father. He is 7/8 southern Croat by origin, and 1/8 NW Croat.
His pre-Slavic part is Venetian, not Greek like.
[1,] "48 % Veneto + 52 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "1.8612"
vbnetkhio
03-15-2020, 10:01 PM
And Chakavian? The very Northern part of the dark blue zone.
i found this one, half Dalmatian, half from Crikvenica, believe it or not.
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 40.04
2 North_Atlantic 26.47
3 East_Med 13.39
4 West_Med 13.02
5 West_Asian 6.16
6 Oceanian 0.28
7 Amerindian 0.23
8 Red_Sea 0.17
9 South_Asian 0.14
10 Siberian 0.09
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Croatian 5.56
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.65
3 South_Polish 7.67
4 Ukrainian 7.68
5 Moldavian 7.78
6 Hungarian 9.58
7 Southwest_Russian 10.12
8 Polish 10.55
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 10.78
10 Russian_Smolensk 11.98
11 Estonian_Polish 12.14
12 Serbian 12.27
13 Belorussian 12.58
14 East_German 13.29
15 Austrian 13.86
16 Kargopol_Russian 15.42
17 Romanian 15.68
18 Erzya 16.93
19 Lithuanian 17.1
20 Southwest_Finnish 17.13
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.2% Belorussian + 41.8% Bulgarian @ 3.06
2 67.9% Belorussian + 32.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.24
3 59.2% Estonian_Polish + 40.8% Bulgarian @ 3.35
4 50.2% Lithuanian + 49.8% Bulgarian @ 3.4
5 75.4% Belorussian + 24.6% South_Italian @ 3.47
6 60.5% Lithuanian + 39.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.51
7 73.1% Belorussian + 26.9% Central_Greek @ 3.51
8 68.9% Estonian_Polish + 31.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.57
9 71.4% Lithuanian + 28.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.61
10 55.9% Belorussian + 44.1% Romanian @ 3.64
11 76.2% Estonian_Polish + 23.8% South_Italian @ 3.7
12 69% Lithuanian + 31% South_Italian @ 3.7
13 78.3% Estonian_Polish + 21.7% Italian_Jewish @ 3.7
14 66.7% Lithuanian + 33.3% West_Sicilian @ 3.71
15 73.6% Belorussian + 26.4% West_Sicilian @ 3.75
16 77.6% Belorussian + 22.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.75
17 73.9% Estonian_Polish + 26.1% Central_Greek @ 3.76
18 56.9% Estonian_Polish + 43.1% Romanian @ 3.76
19 73.8% Belorussian + 26.2% East_Sicilian @ 3.76
20 83.7% Ukrainian + 16.3% Ashkenazi @ 3.81
this one is from Labin. probably Italian admixed. but that might be common in that region.
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 28.95
2 North_Atlantic 27.71
3 West_Med 17.05
4 East_Med 13.31
5 West_Asian 9.5
6 Red_Sea 1.17
7 South_Asian 0.85
8 East_Asian 0.49
9 Northeast_African 0.47
10 Amerindian 0.47
11 Sub-Saharan 0.02
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 3.24
2 Moldavian 6.14
3 Romanian 6.68
4 Hungarian 7.02
5 Croatian 7.67
6 Bulgarian 9.26
7 Austrian 9.84
8 East_German 11.25
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 14.37
10 South_Polish 14.66
11 West_German 15.47
12 Ukrainian 15.57
13 South_Dutch 16.94
14 French 17.3
15 Greek_Thessaly 17.57
16 Polish 18.31
17 North_Italian 18.37
18 Southwest_Russian 19.35
19 Ukrainian_Belgorod 19.54
20 North_German 19.71
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73.3% Croatian + 26.7% Tuscan @ 1.75
2 55% Bulgarian + 45% East_German @ 1.8
3 51.6% North_Italian + 48.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.03
4 71.3% Croatian + 28.7% North_Italian @ 2.21
5 75.8% Serbian + 24.2% Croatian @ 2.24
6 76.2% Moldavian + 23.8% North_Italian @ 2.27
7 75.9% Croatian + 24.1% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.29
8 63.7% Romanian + 36.3% East_German @ 2.31
9 57% Ukrainian + 43% Tuscan @ 2.38
10 77.1% Croatian + 22.9% West_Sicilian @ 2.42
11 83.7% Serbian + 16.3% East_German @ 2.44
12 57.6% Hungarian + 42.4% Bulgarian @ 2.45
13 87.9% Serbian + 12.1% Ukrainian @ 2.46
14 89.7% Serbian + 10.3% Polish @ 2.49
15 73% Serbian + 27% Moldavian @ 2.49
16 87.5% Serbian + 12.5% South_Polish @ 2.5
17 87.4% Serbian + 12.6% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.52
18 53.9% Romanian + 46.1% Croatian @ 2.52
19 59% Ukrainian_Lviv + 41% Tuscan @ 2.56
20 51.4% Romanian + 48.6% Hungarian @ 2.57
i found this one, half Dalmatian, half from Crikvenica, believe it or not.
this one is from Labin. probably Italian admixed. but that might be common in that region.
This how i imagine you
https://cached.imagescaler.hbpl.co.uk/resize/scaleWidth/815/cached.offlinehbpl.hbpl.co.uk/news/ORP/craig_cia6-27-2019-20190627073631351.jpg
Wow, 40% Baltic! Can you post his Dodecad too?
vbnetkhio
03-15-2020, 10:10 PM
Wow, 40% Baltic! Can you post his Dodecad too?
# Population Percent
1 North_European 49.8
2 Atlantic_Med 25.35
3 Caucasus 17.63
4 Gedrosia 3.89
5 Southwest_Asian 2.85
6 Northwest_African 0.33
7 Siberian 0.15
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 2.51
2 German (Dodecad) 10.59
3 Polish (Dodecad) 14.28
4 Ukranians (Yunusbayev) 14.55
5 Romanians (Behar) 16.22
6 Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) 16.43
7 Swedish (Dodecad) 17.85
8 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 17.89
9 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 18.05
10 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 18.27
11 Dutch (Dodecad) 18.53
12 Belorussian (Behar) 19.42
13 Norwegian (Dodecad) 19.59
14 Russian (Dodecad) 19.68
15 Russian_B (Behar) 20.02
16 Mordovians (Yunusbayev) 20.33
17 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 21.27
18 English (Dodecad) 21.51
19 Kent (1000Genomes) 21.55
20 Russian (HGDP) 21.85
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.1% Hungarians (Behar) + 11.9% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.56
2 91.8% Hungarians (Behar) + 8.2% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.77
3 52.9% Lithuanians (Behar) + 47.1% TSI30 (Metspalu) @ 1.78
4 91.8% Hungarians (Behar) + 8.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 1.81
5 63.7% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 36.3% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.83
6 59.7% Belorussian (Behar) + 40.3% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.85
7 90.6% Hungarians (Behar) + 9.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 1.85
8 94.1% Hungarians (Behar) + 5.9% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 1.94
9 92.5% Hungarians (Behar) + 7.5% Russian (Dodecad) @ 1.94
10 92.9% Hungarians (Behar) + 7.1% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.98
11 67.1% Polish (Dodecad) + 32.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.98
12 95.1% Hungarians (Behar) + 4.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.01
13 90.6% Hungarians (Behar) + 9.4% Polish (Dodecad) @ 2.04
14 53.4% Lithuanians (Behar) + 46.6% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 2.05
15 56% Lithuanian (Dodecad) + 44% TSI30 (Metspalu) @ 2.13
16 94.4% Hungarians (Behar) + 5.6% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.16
17 65.8% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 34.2% North_Italian (HGDP) @ 2.27
18 96.8% Hungarians (Behar) + 3.2% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.3
19 96.9% Hungarians (Behar) + 3.1% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.33
20 70.1% Polish (Dodecad) + 29.9% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 2.34
And Chakavian? The very Northern part of the dark blue zone.
Never seen one. My childhood friend may test soon, he is full Čakavian Croat from Kvarner region.
40% Baltic for somebody who is half Dalmatian half Kvarner Bay is quite shocking.
Never seen one. My childhood friend may test soon, he is full Čakavian Croat from Kvarner region.
40% Baltic for somebody who is half Dalmatian half Kvarner Bay is quite shocking.
I think 40% is staggering in any part of Croatia. Also see his Dodecad - nearly 50% NE (49.8)!
Is Osijek-Baranja also undertested? Over 300k people. You guys (Serbs, Croats) may use some older or historical terms, I have no clue and can only use the existing administrative division.
I think 40% is staggering in any part of Croatia. Also see his Dodecad - nearly 50% NE (49.8)!
Is Osijek-Baranja also undertested? Over 300k people. You guys (Serbs, Croats) may use some older or historical terms, I have no clue and can only use the existing administrative division.
Yes, it's extreme result for sure. For example Hrvoje who is half Slovenian is at 31%, just like my parents. My friend from northern Hungary with Polish and Slovak admixture is 34% Baltic.
Osijek-Baranja is indeed very undertested, unfortunately. It's very interesting part of Slavonia, ethnically quite diverse in the past.
Pribislav
03-16-2020, 11:32 PM
I think 40% is staggering in any part of Croatia. Also see his Dodecad - nearly 50% NE (49.8)!
Is Osijek-Baranja also undertested? Over 300k people. You guys (Serbs, Croats) may use some older or historical terms, I have no clue and can only use the existing administrative division.
According to some researches E-V13 has a peak in continental Croatia in Osijek with 16%.
According to some researches E-V13 has a peak in continental Croatia in Osijek with 16%.
Croats from Osijek are 39% R1a, that's main haplogroup among them.
Pribislav
03-16-2020, 11:38 PM
Croats from Osijek are 39% R1a, that's main haplogroup among them.
I said for E-V13.
Croatians from Slavonia have 18.55% R1a according to this statistic.
https://i.imgur.com/qPuMzWY.gif
I said for E-V13.
Croatians from Slavonia have 18.55% R1a according to this statistic.
https://i.imgur.com/qPuMzWY.gif
Are you really autistic? Osijek = city.
Slavonia = region.
E-V13 is 10% in Osijek.
The haplogroup R-M17 in Croatia is mostly divided into two subclades, R-M558 (predominant) and R-M458, while R-Z282 is rare. The highest frequency of R1a1a1-M17 was found in the Croats from Osijek (39%), Žumberak (34.1),[8] and in the northern islands of Krk (37%) and Cres (56.5%),being similar to the values of the other Slavs, like Slovenes, Czechs and Slovaks.
E-V13 it's typical of the populations of south-eastern Europe, peaking among Kosovo Albanians (44%), and is also high among the Macedonians, Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians and Serbs. The highest frequency in Croatian mainland has been found in Žumberak (18.2%) and Osijek (10.3%), in central islands Dugi Otok (15.9%) and Ugljan (13.2%), as well southern islands Vis (23.4%) and Mljet (15.4%).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Croats
Pribislav
03-16-2020, 11:47 PM
Are you really autistic? Osijek = city.
Slavonia = region.
E-V13 is 10% in Osijek.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Croats
I think statistics for regions has more sense than for one city.
In geographically limited places like one city or village can be hotspot of some haplogroup. For example Žabljak in Montenegro is probably 70% I1-P109, because strong majority people there are from Drobnjak clan (I1-P109).
I think statistics for regions has more sense than for one city.
In geographicaly limited places like one citi or village can be hotspot of some haplogroup. For example Žabljak in Montenegro is probably 70% I1-P109, because strong majority people there are from Drobnjak clan (I1-P109).
Osijek is largest city in Slavonia, and this statistics is not limited to ethnic Croats as far as I know (5% H in Međimurje).
In older research Posavina also has high R1a, and E-V13 is high in Šokac population along with I2.
Pribislav
03-16-2020, 11:53 PM
Osijek is largest city in Slavonia, and this statistics is not limited to ethnic Croats as far as I know (5% H in Međimurje).
In older research Posavina also has high R1a, and E-V13 is high in Šokac population along with I2.
5% of H in NW Crowtia are probably just croatized Gypsies. :)
https://i.imgur.com/Ejhb1pZ.gif
5% of H in NW Crowtia are probably just croatized Gypsies. :)
https://i.imgur.com/Ejhb1pZ.gif
I don't think there are any Croatised Gypsies in Međimurje (maybe I am wrong). They are living in their own villages and hostility is high. Most likely they were ashamed to say they are Roma, so just declared Croat.
This statistics just mentions regions, not ethnicity of testees.
Four largest haplos in Croatia are I2, R1a, R1b and E-V13 in that order?
Pribislav
03-17-2020, 12:02 AM
I don't think there are any Croatised Gypsies in Međimurje (maybe I am wrong). They are living in their own villages and hostility is high. Most likely they were ashamed to say they are Roma, so just declared Croat.
This statistics just mentions regions, not ethnicity of testees.
Hrvoje said that local Croatians from NW Croatia are tolerant towards the Gypsies, unlike other Croatians. This is and prerequisite for croatization of Gypsies in NW Croatia. Gypsies there are Catholics, and that is another excellent prerequisite for their croatization.
Gypsies in Međimurje survived WW2 because Međimurje in WW2 was part of Hungary. In other parts of Croatia which were part of nazi Independent State of Croatia a lot of Gypsies were killed in conc camps by Croatian ustashe.
Four largest haplos in Croatia are I2, R1a, R1b and E-V13 in that order?
Yeah. J2 is also close to R1b/E1b levels, I think.
Hrvoje said that local Croatians from NW Croatia are tolerant towards the Gypsies, unlike other Croatians. This is and prerequisite for croatization of Gypsies in NW Croatia. Gypsies there are Catholics, and that is another excellent prerequisite for their croatization.
Gypsies in Međimurje survived WW2 because Međimurje in WW2 was part of Hungary. In other parts of Croatia which were part of nazi Independent State of Croatia a lot of Gypsies were killed in conc camps by Croatian ustashe.
No, rural people are not tolerant and many Gypsies are orthodox and muslim at least in Rijeka. They came here recently, mostly from Kosovo.
Gypsies are not Croatised, stop spreading nonense. It's possible only in big cities, and those cases are unfortunately very few.
Pribislav
03-17-2020, 12:15 AM
No, rural people are not tolerant and many Gypsies are orthodox and muslim at least in Rijeka. They came here recently, mostly from Kosovo.
Gypsies are not Croatised, stop spreading nonense. It's possible only in big cities, and those cases are unfortunately very few.
I heard for tolerance towards the Gypsies in NW Croatia by locals from Hrvoje. I bealive he know better situation in that part of Croatia than you.
Of course Gypsies in Rijeka are newcomers from distant regions in Yugo period. 80% of Rijeka population are setllers after WW2 from various regions. In Rijeka there is significant number of Bosniaks, you know better than me. When my mother lived in Rijeka during studies she resided in one Muslims family originally from Bosnia some period, some period she was with Croatian family from Gorski Kotar, and some period in student home.
Not a single country where Roma are considered integrated, lol. Really makes you think who is to blame. Maybe in Turkey, I don't know. Muslims are illiberal and don't have welfare, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are Turkified and diluted over there.
I heard for tolerance towards the Gypsies in NW Croatia by locals from Hrvoje. I bealive he know better situation in that part of Croatia than you.
Of course Gypsies in Rijeka are newcomers from distsnt regions in Yugo period. 80% of Rijeka population are setllers after WW3. In Rijeka there is significant number of Bosniaks, you know bettrr than me. When my mother lived in Rijeka during studies resided in one Muslims family originally from Bosnia some period, some period she was with Croatian family from Gorski Kotar, and some period in student home.
Yes, in Rijeka (city) locals are rare. That's why very few people in city know local dialect, unlike suburbs and town around which are mostly fully native Croats.
Currently relations of Gypsies and Croats in Međimurje are horrible, close to escalating point. They are already 15-20% of total population in that county.
Maybe it was different in the past.
I think Gypsies were better integrated than than now. In Dubica Gypsies were normal townsfolk and they were blacksmiths. I read that in old article about that town.
Good night Pribi.
Pribislav
03-17-2020, 12:25 AM
Not a single country where Roma are considered integrated, lol. Really makes you think who is to blame. Maybe in Turkey, I don't know. Muslims are illiberal and don't have welfare, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are Turkified and diluted over there.
Croatia is Muslim friendly coutry.
In Rijeka is opened Islamic cultural center with huge mosque.
https://youtu.be/OKw-VmOWjLI
Croatia is Muslim friendly coutry.
In Rijeka is opened Islamic cultural center with huge mosque.
[video=youtube_share;OKw-VmOWjLI]https://youtu.be/OKw-VmOWjLI
I'm sure their Muslim pop is small and consists mostly of Yugoslavian Muslims, not brown foreigners.
Pribislav
03-17-2020, 12:33 AM
I'm sure their Muslim pop is small and consists mostly of Yugoslavian Muslims, not brown foreigners.
63 000 Muslims lived in Croatia in 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Croatia
I'm sure their Muslim pop is small and consists mostly of Yugoslavian Muslims, not brown foreigners.
Yeah, like your Volga Tatars. Ignore autistic Pribislav.
Serbia has lot more muslims, but unlike in Croatia they have separatist tendencies.
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 03:43 PM
Not in case of my father. He is 7/8 southern Croat by origin, and 1/8 NW Croat.
His pre-Slavic part is Venetian, not Greek like.
[1,] "48 % Veneto + 52 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "1.8612"
maybe Hvar has some real more recent Venetian influence.
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 03:53 PM
Never seen one. My childhood friend may test soon, he is full Čakavian Croat from Kvarner region.
40% Baltic for somebody who is half Dalmatian half Kvarner Bay is quite shocking.
Slovenes are nearby, and we know they can reach at least up to 39. also, the average Baltic of a dozen Croats from "Zagreb and Mainland" is 36. so 36+-5 should be normal there too.
maybe Hvar has some real more recent Venetian influence.
Yes, that's possible ofcourse.
Slovenes are nearby, and we know they can reach at least up to 39. also, the average Baltic of a dozen Croats from "Zagreb and Mainland" is 36. so 36+-5 should be normal there too.
Would you say genetics correlates more with dialects or with geography in case of South Slavs? Probably both.
Does this result resemble a Croatian? Minus the elevated Siberian.
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.05
2 North_Atlantic 25.36
3 East_Med 16.53
4 West_Med 12.43
5 West_Asian 4.97
6 Siberian 3.31
7 Red_Sea 0.85
8 Northeast_African 0.52
9 Amerindian 0.41
10 South_Asian 0.35
11 East_Asian 0.2
Dušan
03-17-2020, 04:30 PM
Please, stop polluting Serbian topic with Croats.
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 04:39 PM
Would you say genetics correlates more with dialects or with geography in case of South Slavs? Probably both.
dialects, compare that 40% Baltic result to Bunjevci who are just a few miles away.
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 04:41 PM
Does this result resemble a Croatian? Minus the elevated Siberian.
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.05
2 North_Atlantic 25.36
3 East_Med 16.53
4 West_Med 12.43
5 West_Asian 4.97
6 Siberian 3.31
7 Red_Sea 0.85
8 Northeast_African 0.52
9 Amerindian 0.41
10 South_Asian 0.35
11 East_Asian 0.2
yes, a Dalmatian or B&H Croat.
dialects, compare that 40% Baltic result to Bunjevci who are just a few miles away.
Montenegrins kind of disaprove this, otherwise would agree. They are significantly less Slavic on average than other Štokavian speakers.
But perhaps in their case it is because they border non Slavic Albanians, and people tend to mix with their neighbours.
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 06:22 PM
Montenegrins kind of disaprove this, otherwise would agree. They are significantly less Slavic on average than other Štokavian speakers.
But perhaps in their case it is because they border non Slavic Albanians, and people tend to mix with their neighbours.
those Montenegrins are old shtokavian Zeta dialect speakers, which is pretty different from new shtokavian. The other half of Montenegro (Old Herzegovina) are like average Serbs from what i've seen.
please don't troll with Albanians.
those Montenegrins are old shtokavian Zeta dialect speakers, which is pretty different from new shtokavian. The other half of Montenegro (Old Herzegovina) are like average Serbs from what i've seen.
please don't troll with Albanians.
Are you serious?
Montenegrins from Brda clans are certanly mixed with Albanians. And their clan culture is same like Gheg one.
What kind of fanatic you must be to deny that?
There were “vlach” tribes like Krici for example. They weren’t Albanians and also had clan culture. All of the were assimilated
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 06:38 PM
Are you serious?
Montenegrins from Brda clans are certanly mixed with Albanians. And their clan culture is same like Gheg one.
What kind of fanatic you must be to deny that?
what happened to all the pre-Albanian Vlach tribes in Montenegro? Albanians reached Montenegro in a later expansion.
i don't believe there's a significant Albanian influence further west and north of Kuči and Eastern Sandžak Bosniaks.
my guess is, in that region, those with 24-26 Baltic are just Vlachs + Serbs, and those with 20-23 are that+Albanians. east Sandžak Muslims are all around 23 and those Montenegrins with 20 and 22 might be Kuči.
joanna_38
03-17-2020, 06:43 PM
GUYS CHANGE THE TITLE, SHE'S BOSNIAK, NOT SERBIAN (fixed)
Dušan
03-17-2020, 06:45 PM
GUYS CHANGE THE TITLE, SHE'S BOSNIAN, NOT SERBIAN
Is she Orthodox or Muslim?
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 06:45 PM
GUYS CHANGE THE TITLE, SHE'S BOSNIAN, NOT SERBIAN
Bosniak?
Pubiczar
03-17-2020, 06:46 PM
what happened to all the pre-Albanian Vlach tribes in Montenegro? Albanians reached Montenegro in a later expansion.
i don't believe there's a significant Albanian influence further west and north of Kuči and Eastern Sandžak Bosniaks.
What is that 'vlach' influence you Serbs like to talk about?
Can you show us something in the form of y-dna pls?
Because looking at the y-tree at YFULL, I see plenty of Montenegrins forming branches with Albanians, even Serbs for that matter.
On the other hand, what little I know about the actual Vlachs aka Aromanians, there was a study about them in 2006 and also few tested on various dna projects and they don't seem particularly closer to Montengrians or Serbs than the Albanians are.
joanna_38
03-17-2020, 06:48 PM
Bosniak?
yes that, please someone just change it, i made a huge mistake. 3000 people saw it, oh dear. What did i create..
yes that, please someone just change it, i made a huge mistake. 3000 people saw it, oh dear. What did i create..
Where in Bosnia is she from?
There were “vlach” tribes like Krici for example. They weren’t Albanians and also had clan culture. All of the were assimilated
They were Latinised Albanian-like people as were all ''Vlachs'' native to western Balkans. Furthermore, some Montenegrin clans share oral traditions with Gheg ones about common origins.
They were Latinised Albanian-like people as were all ''Vlachs'' native to western Balkans. Furthermore, some Montenegrin clans share oral traditions with Gheg ones about common origins.
Krici are J2b1>PH4306 >Y22059 (Balkan mainland branch).
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 06:57 PM
They were Latinised Albanian-like people as were all ''Vlachs'' native to western Balkans. Furthermore, some Montenegrin clans share oral traditions with Gheg ones about common origins.
ok, so not Albanians. you could have said that earlier, i agree with that.
Krici are J2b1>PH4306 >Y22059 (Balkan mainland branch).
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png
Probably arrived with some Roman, but it's origin is Levantine/Syrian.
CommonSense
03-17-2020, 06:58 PM
yes that, please someone just change it, i made a huge mistake. 3000 people saw it, oh dear. What did i create..
So you merely saw that her name ends with 'ić' and thought she must be Serbian? :picard2:
Probably arrived with some Roman, but it's origin is Levantine/Syrian.
During Imperial Rome yes
ok, so not Albanians. you could have said that earlier, i agree with that.
Yes, that's what I meant.
yes that, please someone just change it, i made a huge mistake. 3000 people saw it, oh dear. What did i create..
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LividConsciousCondor-size_restricted.gif
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 07:18 PM
What is that 'vlach' influence you Serbs like to talk about?
Can you show us something in the form of y-dna pls?
Because looking at the y-tree at YFULL, I see plenty of Montenegrins forming branches with Albanians, even Serbs for that matter.
On the other hand, what little I know about the actual Vlachs aka Aromanians, there was a study about them in 2006 and also few tested on various dna projects and they don't seem particularly closer to Montengrians or Serbs than the Albanians are.
you seriously don't know? Vlach was an old Slavic name for all Romance language speakers. in Montenegro many such tribes survived, and Slavs found them here when they settled. Aromanians are just one of many Vlach groups.
examples:
Kriči j2b1 - they probably descend from a Romanized Arab who settled in the Balkans.
Banjani n-p189.2 - they probably descend from a Romanized Pannonian Scythian.
Vasojevići E-Y37092 - could be from a Romanized ancient Greek settler.
Macure i-z63 - descended from a Gothic foederatus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foederati)?
as for those Albanian haplogroups among Serbs, they are found in eastern Montenegro, because that was a mixing zone, and they are found among Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia in small numbers, because those eastern Montenegrins migrated there, in the last 300 years.
for example
https://s9.postimg.cc/bfnlr6xof/j2b2-m241_anon.png
and this one:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y23373/
but a very small number of Serbs carry these haplogroups. so it's normal admixture which happens among 2 neighbouring nations.
Crnagoraurus
03-17-2020, 08:04 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAHHAHHAHAHAH AHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHA HHAAHHAA What a load of crap, kill yourself vbnetkhio. Montenegro is the only country in Balkans which never had a Vlach community, all the other countries Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria and Greece had Vlach minorities which were historically recorded and still have their influence in the toponomy of their cities, villages, rivers, mountains. Balkan historians and especially Yugoslav ones wrongfully called Vlach every pre-Slavic tribe and people the Slavs encountered in Balkans. The formation of the Montenegrin tribes in Brda who share a common origin with some Albanian tribes took birth before an Albanian national consciousness and identity so, by all means, these tribes were never Albanian.
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 08:07 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAHHAHHAHAHAH AHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHA HHAAHHAA What a load of crap, kill yourself vbnetkhio.
lol
Pubiczar
03-17-2020, 08:22 PM
you seriously don't know? Vlach was an old Slavic name for all Romance language speakers. in Montenegro many such tribes survived, and Slavs found them here when they settled. Aromanians are just one of many Vlach groups.
examples:
Kriči j2b1 - they probably descend from a Romanized Arab who settled in the Balkans.
Banjani n-p189.2 - they probably descend from a Romanized Pannonian Scythian.
Vasojevići E-Y37092 - could be from a Romanized ancient Greek settler.
Macure i-z63 - descended from a Gothic foederatus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foederati)?
as for those Albanian haplogroups among Serbs, they are found in eastern Montenegro, because that was a mixing zone, and they are found among Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia in small numbers, because those eastern Montenegrins migrated there, in the last 300 years.
for example
https://s9.postimg.cc/bfnlr6xof/j2b2-m241_anon.png
and this one:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y23373/
but a very small number of Serbs carry these haplogroups. so it's normal admixture which happens among 2 neighbouring nations.
I know what is a Vlach however that term was mainly applied for those Latin speakers in Greece, Southern Albania and Macedonia. I didn't know that so many Latin speakers survived in Montenegro.
However judging by the y-dna of different groups it seems that those Vlachs in Montenegro have little in common with the Aromanians. Furthermore, are there any written sources about those Montenegrin Vlachs? Was their language eastern-romance as it was the Aromanian and Romania or more akin to Western Latin?
Generally those haplos among your people like that J2b1 and N2 seem very recently added to the Serbian people. Their tmrca is not more than 1000 years as far as I can see and there is not much evidence that they descend directly from the Latin speakers in the Balkans. This N2 group seem to have a brother clade in Romania and could have came from that direction. Thus this group could have been Vlach a thousand years ago but there is no evidence that it was a Latin speaking native Balkan or Roman people that have spread it. It's absence in other Balkan people seem to confirm that and it's more likely source is some other people who lived North of Danube, very well known such people were the Serboi, a Sarmatian tribe living in present day Pannonia and Transilvania during the Roman Empire.
The same with this J2b1 group who is even more mysterious because it seems mainly concentrated in the South-west Slavs therefore it's deeper origin is a mystery and could be anything but native Latin speaking people of the Balkans. Furthermore the name Krici sounds not much Vlach to me...
This Vasojevici branch however does look like native Balkan although I don't think it was a Greek. The common tmrca with the Greek in YFULL is way too old for it and probably just share a common ancestor, if I have to guess probably in the Vicedol culture which does seem to had contacts with the Minoans and the early inhabitants of Greece. Plus this haplo seem to have a Western Balkan rather than Eastern Balkan diversity. So yeah, this haplo(Vasojevici) can definitely be connected with the old people in the region, mostly with the Illyrians who lived in the region in the ancient times.
I-z63?? Don't know much about it but can be anything, even Slavs could have brought it themselves after assimilating some Germanic folks further north.
J-M241 is too diverse in the Western Balkans. Some clades seem to not be connected with the Albanians and we will find soon for two Macedonians who are waiting their BIG Y results.
R-BY611 balkan is a very mysterious group. Low tmrca however the immediate upsream branches seem to be Italians. Although R-Z2103 is generally more diverse in the Eastern Balkans this BY611 Balkan group it seems to not be of Eastern Balkan origin. The very connection with the Italians confirm that and if not Illyrian could very well be of Italic origin. We know that Justinian have settled many Italians in the Balkans after the initial destruction caused by the Huns, the Goths and the plagues. It's very well known that the vocabulary of Latin origin in the Albanian language in majority is of Western Romance rather than Eastern Romance. It may very well be that the progenitor of this Balkan group was an Italian settler.
However I open the option for Illyrian origin open...
So, the Illyrian origin of the Balkan element among Montenegrins and Serbs is evident. There could be other elements like Dacian and Pannonian for example, visible with some CTS9320 or L241 subclades among your people.
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 08:24 PM
Montenegro is the only country in Balkans which never had a Vlach community,
i can't believe what i'm reading. if they were called Vlachs in medieval sources and lived in Vlach katuns, what were they?
Crnagoraurus
03-17-2020, 08:55 PM
i can't believe what i'm reading. if they were called Vlachs in medieval sources and lived in Vlach katuns, what were they?
What medieval sources and Vlach katuns you talk about? There are presumably by some scholars 1 or 2 vlach toponyms in upper Montenegro(Old Herzegovina) but they are so scarce they don't prove anything.
joanna_38
03-17-2020, 08:57 PM
So you merely saw that her name ends with 'ić' and thought she must be Serbian? :picard2:
She didn't use her real name, my mind just sort of confused it. we can just obliterate the entire thread if any mod reads this, i'm ok with that.
She didn't use her real name, my mind just sort of confused it. we can just obliterate the entire thread if any mod reads this, i'm ok with that.
Better just close it without deleting. There may be some good posts up the thread.
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 10:17 PM
I know what is a Vlach however that term was mainly applied for those Latin speakers in Greece, Southern Albania and Macedonia. I didn't know that so many Latin speakers survived in Montenegro.
However judging by the y-dna of different groups it seems that those Vlachs in Montenegro have little in common with the Aromanians.
why would they? Aromanians have common ancestors with Romanians, they descend from a group of Romanized Dacians or Thracians which survived somewhere in modern Romania or nearby. And the Montenegrin Vlachs descend from diferrent unrelated groups. The only connection is that they were both Roman citizens and spoke a version of Latin.
Furthermore, are there any written sources about those Montenegrin Vlachs? Was their language eastern-romance as it was the Aromanian and Romania or more akin to Western Latin?
yes, for example
Sir Arthur Evans noted that the Banjani were mentioned as Vlachs/Morlachs in Herzegovina and Montenegro of the Middle Ages in Ragusan reports and Serbian chrysobulls.
we don't know about the language. i believe they spoke a dialect of Dalmatian, Dalmatian was spoken in Kotor and Dubrovnik which was just next door to these Montenegrin Vlachs.
Dalmatians were also considered Vlachs, just not the shepherd type of Vlach, they were a quite large group, they lived on almost the entire Croatian and Montenegrin coast. they are assimilated into Croats and Montenegrins today.
Generally those haplos among your people like that J2b1 and N2 seem very recently added to the Serbian people. Their tmrca is not more than 1000 years as far as I can see and there is not much evidence that they descend directly from the Latin speakers in the Balkans. This N2 group seem to have a brother clade in Romania and could have came from that direction. Thus this group could have been Vlach a thousand years ago but there is no evidence that it was a Latin speaking native Balkan or Roman people that have spread it. It's absence in other Balkan people seem to confirm that and it's more likely source is some other people who lived North of Danube, very well known such people were the Serboi, a Sarmatian tribe living in present day Pannonia and Transilvania during the Roman Empire.
The same with this J2b1 group who is even more mysterious because it seems mainly concentrated in the South-west Slavs therefore it's deeper origin is a mystery and could be anything but native Latin speaking people of the Balkans. Furthermore the name Krici sounds not much Vlach to me...
Serboi are mentioned only in the Steppes, near Caucasus, correct me if i'm wrong.
of course these haplogroups aren't well branched out. they originate from a handful of Romans who refuged into the most isolated Montenegrin mountains. some medieval invaders wouldn't settle in such a place. they started demographically recovering around 1000 AD when the political situation stabilized. that's when those TMRCAs are, as their families started to branch out. then in the 1200s, these Vlach tribes are first mentioned in documents, so that's when they became big enough to be noticed.
you mention the modern distribution of haplogroups in the Balkans:
https://i.imgur.com/cblmRNq.png
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png
they are the strongest in Serbia and Serbian parts of Bosnia and Croatia, because these areas recieved multiple waves of Montenegrin immigration in the last 500 years.
j2b1 is also found elsewhere, but that's irrelevant, because the Serbian subclade j2b1 is in fact the closest to Arabic, and not to those in Greece, Italy, etc.
the N2 in Romania also came from Montenegro in my opinion, i can explain why.
This Vasojevici branch however does look like native Balkan although I don't think it was a Greek. The common tmrca with the Greek in YFULL is way too old for it and probably just share a common ancestor, if I have to guess probably in the Vicedol culture which does seem to had contacts with the Minoans and the early inhabitants of Greece. Plus this haplo seem to have a Western Balkan rather than Eastern Balkan diversity. So yeah, this haplo(Vasojevici) can definitely be connected with the old people in the region, mostly with the Illyrians who lived in the region in the ancient times.
it's found in Cyclades and Calabria,so basically Greek core territory and it took part in the Greek colonization of Italy. Greeks had a colony on the Montenegrin coast too.
I-z63?? Don't know much about it but can be anything, even Slavs could have brought it themselves after assimilating some Germanic folks further north.
the Balkan subclade of i-z63 originates from somewhere near the Montenegro/Albania border. The closest subclades of Macuras are found in north Albanians. so there was probably Gothic man in this area from whom all these subclades descend.
J-M241 is too diverse in the Western Balkans. Some clades seem to not be connected with the Albanians and we will find soon for two Macedonians who are waiting their BIG Y results.
R-BY611 balkan is a very mysterious group. Low tmrca however the immediate upsream branches seem to be Italians. Although R-Z2103 is generally more diverse in the Eastern Balkans this BY611 Balkan group it seems to not be of Eastern Balkan origin. The very connection with the Italians confirm that and if not Illyrian could very well be of Italic origin. We know that Justinian have settled many Italians in the Balkans after the initial destruction caused by the Huns, the Goths and the plagues. It's very well known that the vocabulary of Latin origin in the Albanian language in majority is of Western Romance rather than Eastern Romance. It may very well be that the progenitor of this Balkan group was an Italian settler.
However I open the option for Illyrian origin open...
So, the Illyrian origin of the Balkan element among Montenegrins and Serbs is evident. There could be other elements like Dacian and Pannonian for example, visible with some CTS9320 or L241 subclades among your people.
i didn't look much into these two, but to me they seem quite obviously recent Albanian admixture among Serbs. They are found wherever Albanians are found, so the proto-Albanians had and spread them. and Serbs only have them in the Serbian/Albanian border areas and among Serbs who originate from there.
the Balkan subclade of i-z63 originates from somewhere near the Montenegro/Albania border. The closest subclades of Macuras are found in north Albanians. so there was probably Gothic man in this area from whom both these subclades descend.
Maybe not. It could even be Norman like the P109. The Tmrca of the Macura subclade is 1100 ybp. The Albanians are downstream from their subclade( two Macura cousins tested via Big Y and uploaded to yfull)
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 10:42 PM
Maybe not. It could even be Norman like the P109. The Tmrca of the Macura subclade is 1100 ybp. The Albanians are downstream from their subclade( two Macura cousins tested via Big Y and uploaded to yfull)
is this the Macura subclade? https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16435/
there is Belarus, which the Goths passed through in their early migrations. then there is an expansion in 1550, that's roughly when they reached the western Balkans
is this the Macura subclade? https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16435/
there is Belarus, which the Goths passed through in their early migrations. then there is an expansion in 1550, that's roughly when they reached the western Balkans
Yes but could be from Slavs initially too
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 10:56 PM
Yes but could be from Slavs initially too
the sister branches are found in Italy, France, Spain so it fits Goths too well. it could be Gothic subclade which got assimialted into Slavs back in the Slavic homeland if you mean that.
but Macure are described as non-Slavic in the Montenegrin legends.
the sister branches are found in Italy, France, Spain so it fits Goths too well. it could be Gothic subclade which got assimialted into Slavs back in the Slavic homeland if you mean that.
but Macure are described as non-Slavic in the Montenegrin legends.
You mean as Vlachs?
vbnetkhio
03-17-2020, 11:02 PM
You mean as Vlachs?
that's just assumed, they aren't directly mentioned as Vlachs like some other tribes, it's just mentioned nobody could understand their language.
that's just assumed, they aren't directly mentioned as Vlachs like some other tribes, it's just mentioned nobody could understand their language.
Like the Krici
JohnnyP
03-17-2020, 11:14 PM
the sister branches are found in Italy, France, Spain so it fits Goths too well. it could be Gothic subclade which got assimialted into Slavs back in the Slavic homeland if you mean that.
but Macure are described as non-Slavic in the Montenegrin legends.
Whats exactly is Macura?Tribe?My bestfriend's surname is Macura.
Whats exactly is Macura?Tribe?My bestfriend's surname is Macura.
Tribe and surname
Pribislav
03-18-2020, 12:46 PM
Whats exactly is Macura?Tribe?My bestfriend's surname is Macura.
Macura are Serbian clan (and surname in the same time) who lived in northern Dalmatia in the last 500 yesrs, last 350 years their center was Kistanje https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kistanje
Further origin of Macura clan is from Lim valley in present day northern Montenegro.
http://macure.net/en/Home#!Genetika_TeorijeoPorekluPlemenaMacura
JohnnyP
03-18-2020, 01:13 PM
Macura are Serbian clan (and surname in the same time) who lived in northern Dalmatia in the last 500 yesrs, last 350 years their center was Kistanje https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kistanje
Further origin of Macura clan is from Lim valley in present day northern Montenegro.
http://macure.net/en/Home#!Genetika_TeorijeoPorekluPlemenaMacura
Yeah my friends father is refugee from Kistanje ,Croatia and he represent himself like Dalmatian/Croatian not Serbian or Montenegrin.They even call him Dalmatinac.
But if Macure are known like non-slavic how they are Croatian,Serbian or Montenegrin?
Pribislav
03-18-2020, 01:19 PM
Yeah my friends father is refugee from Kistanje ,Croatia and he represent himself like Dalmatian/Croatian not Serbian or Montenegrin.They even call him Dalmatinac.
But if Macure are known like non-slavic how they are Croatian,Serbian or Montenegrin?
In Kistanje before Yugo war there was 98% Serbs https://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kistanje#Popis_1991.
Vast majority of Macure are Orthodox Serbs, except few covnerts on Catholicism who have become Croatians.
Slava of Macure is archangel Michael.
JohnnyP
03-18-2020, 01:21 PM
In Kistanje before Yugo war there was 98% Serbs https://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kistanje#Popis_1991
Vast majority of Macure are Orthodox Serbs, except few covnerts on Catholicism who have become Croatians.
Slava of Macure is archangel Michael.
From your posts for Macure ,i see that they are Slavicized German tribe , Gothic ?
Pribislav
03-18-2020, 01:27 PM
From your posts for Macure ,i see that they are Slavicized German tribe , Gothic ?
Their y dna (I1-Z63) is probably from Goths.
JohnnyP
03-18-2020, 01:40 PM
Their y dna (I1-Z63) is probably from Goths.
So definition of Macure is Slavicized Goths, nice.
Bosniensis
03-18-2020, 01:44 PM
Their y dna (I1-Z63) is probably from Goths.
Goths are broad group of peoples, Visigoths for example are exclusively R1b, Ostrogoths are R1a and R1b
I1 are assimilated slaves of the Goths.
Goths are broad group of peoples, Visigoths for example are exclusively R1b, Ostrogoths are R1a and R1b
I1 are assimilated slaves of the Goths.
Please shut up and drink your corona virus
I-Z63 is most common in England, Scotland, Germany, Fennoscandia, Iberia and Poland. Its progenitor is assumed to have lived in Jutland at around 2500 BCE. Within Fennoscandia, I-Z63 has a particularly strong association with Finland. To date, ancient I-Z63 has been found archeologically in Poland and Italy.
JohnnyP
03-18-2020, 01:59 PM
Please shut up and drink your corona virus
Pache , are you goth too ?
Pache , are you goth too ?
No I'm Slav
Pubiczar
03-18-2020, 07:00 PM
why would they? Aromanians have common ancestors with Romanians, they descend from a group of Romanized Dacians or Thracians which survived somewhere in modern Romania or nearby. And the Montenegrin Vlachs descend from diferrent unrelated groups. The only connection is that they were both Roman citizens and spoke a version of Latin.
Aromanians have common ancestors with proto-Romanians not with the Romanians. Those proto-Aromanian and proto-Romanian people spoke Eastern Romance, a variant of Vulgar Latin spoken in the Balkans, more specifically east of Morava river and north of the Jirecek line. However, the Jirecek line should not be taken as a very precise argument because Latin speaking people were living south of that line judging by some Latin inscriptions found south of that line although the majority of the inscriptions are on Greek. Plus the Thracian tribe of Bessi was recorded speaking their own language well into the early Medieval period and they were living south of that line. On top of that, the inscriptions found that helped Jirecek draw that line are mostly a product of the city folks or the true Romans, whether Latin or Greek speaking. The way of living of the Aromanians and the Romanians as recorded early in the history is quite different than the Romans and their high culture. Both Aromanians and proto-Romanians's way of living and manners as recorded by many(for example the Jewish traveller Benjamin of Tudela who records how the Vlachs in Greece descended from the mountains and were atacking the Greeks) look more of a native Latinized tribe of the Balkans than that of highly cultured Romans. In accordance of that Eastern Romance was spoken in the Balkans already when the Slavs arrived and the first Vlachs in Greece are already recorded in the 10th century(Georgios Kedrenos's account), while in the same time we have a record about Vlachs in Transylvania according to some Hungarian accounts like Gesta Hungarorum. Therefore the common ancestors of the Aromanians and the Romanians couldn't have lived around the 10th century but much earlier. It seems that there was an uninterrupted chain of Eastern Romance speakers all the way from the mountains of Transylvania to the mountains of Greece and Macedonia, speakers who were shepherds and a highly mobile population, a chain that was interrupted with the Bulgarian conquest of modern south-east Serbia and Northern Macedonia. So both groups of Vlachs were cut off in the same manner the South Slavs were cut off from the other Slavs, around the middle of the 9th century with the Bulgar conquest of the area. Usually the period between the 9th and the 12th century is taken by the linguists as the time when the Aromanian and the Romanian split off and the 9th century looks the most appropriate having in mind the Bulgar invasion. Having in mind that, the Aromanians and the Romanians could still have a common language(Eastern Romance) ancestor and still be not much related among each other genetically if we follow the principles as to how some other groups(take Slavs for example) who speak related languages and yet there is a big gap between the Northern Slavs and the Southern Slavs. Of course, this gap would have been minimal in the contact areas but in the most distant areas could have been reality. Probably that's why some haplogroups and subclades common among the Aromanians could not be found among the Romanians and vice versa...
yes, for example
we don't know about the language. i believe they spoke a dialect of Dalmatian, Dalmatian was spoken in Kotor and Dubrovnik which was just next door to these Montenegrin Vlachs.
Dalmatians were also considered Vlachs, just not the shepherd type of Vlach, they were a quite large group, they lived on almost the entire Croatian and Montenegrin coast. they are assimilated into Croats and Montenegrins today.
Even the Bulgarians were mentioned as Vlachs in the past(The Vlacho-Bulgar Empire) and their leaders having Vlach names(Ioannitsa), proclaimed themselves Autocrators and Kings of the Bulgarians and the Vlachs and of Bulgaria and Vlachia, even though Vlachia in Romania wasn't included in the Kingdom.
So where this Vlachia could have been located?
Byzantine princess Anna Commena, who writes in the 12th century, mentions numerous Vlachs, nomads living in Bulgaria. The time when this Byzantine princess wrote, what was considered Bulgaria was the Byzantine theme of Bulgaria roughly located in most of present day Macedonia and south-eastern and eastern Serbia. The creators of the restored state, Asen dynasty, appealed to the traditions of the old Bulgarian state, but they were of Cuman-Vlach origin and adopted the title of tsar of Bulgarians, Vlachs and Cumans. It should be noted that during the reign of the Asen, the present day Vlachia in Romania was known as Cumania. Bulgarian tsar sent to the Pope the Archbishop of Bulgaria and Vlachia,
Basil, while Innocent III in his edict of 25 February 1204 gave royal crown to Kaloyan and established the Roman Catholic Church for the province of Bulgaria and Blachia/Vlachia. It can be concluded that the Bulgarian state entered the territory so densely populated by Vlachs that it could have been named Vlachia, and that it had to have some specific administrative framework as it was considered a province. Additionally, chroniclers of the fourth crusade, Geoffroy de Villardhuin and Robert de Clari, referred to the Bulgarian tsar as John of Vlachia(Blakia). One might ask where this Vlahia province was situated if the modern province of Vlachia in Romania was known as Cumania back then?
Robert de Clari wrote that it was a province bordering Cumania and belonging to the Byzantine emperor, who rebelled against him. It was harsh and inaccessible land, which could have been accessed only by ravines. Undoubtedly, we cannot identify this Vlachia with the Wallachian Plain, as most recently historiography does, because 1) it could have been accessed very easily from the south, 2) it never belonged to Byzantine Empire. In the light of these chroniclers Vlachia must be placed in the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria, which was located in modern North-Western Bulgaria and South and Eastern Serbia or what we know today as Torlakian region:
https://i.postimg.cc/GmKvTt0h/Valachia.png (https://postimages.org/)
So probably these Vlachs contributed in both Serbs and Bulgarians gene pool. It might be that some of these Vlachs migrated lately in more western Serbian areas such as Montenegro or Bosnia...
Serboi are mentioned only in the Steppes, near Caucasus, correct me if i'm wrong.
of course these haplogroups aren't well branched out. they originate from a handful of Romans who refuged into the most isolated Montenegrin mountains. some medieval invaders wouldn't settle in such a place. they started demographically recovering around 1000 AD when the political situation stabilized. that's when those TMRCAs are, as their families started to branch out. then in the 1200s, these Vlach tribes are first mentioned in documents, so that's when they became big enough to be noticed.
The Sarmatian tribe Lazyges are mentioned as inhabitants of Pannonia and Transylvania however they were probably not the only Sarmatians judging by the Ptolemy's account of the Roman city of Serbinum in Pannonia. If these tribes were indeed Vlachs as you mention and not shepherds then they were probably not of the same stock as these Vlachs in the Torlakian region but their origin can be traced to Pannonia and the Latin speaking inhabitants there among who even these Sarmatians could have been included. Therefore, the distant origin of this N2 Serbian and Montenegrin group as Sarmatian is not far fetched. They could have lived in the plains and steppes of Southern Russia(a cousin in Rostov) and Southern Ukraine before descending to Romania and Montenegro(Their immediate upstream matches show dispersion as that of the Sarmatians). We can see a distant cousin in the British isles as well, the Sarmatians are well recorded to have been in the British isles, mainly as mercenaries for the Romans.
you mention the modern distribution of haplogroups in the Balkans:
https://i.imgur.com/cblmRNq.png
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png
they are the strongest in Serbia and Serbian parts of Bosnia and Croatia, because these areas recieved multiple waves of Montenegrin immigration in the last 500 years.
j2b1 is also found elsewhere, but that's irrelevant, because the Serbian subclade j2b1 is in fact the closest to Arabic, and not to those in Greece, Italy, etc.
the N2 in Romania also came from Montenegro in my opinion, i can explain why.
That's already impossible to prove even if you test all living Montenegrins and Serbs. It's not only the Romanian but there is the Russian from Rostov. It's quite clear where the direction of migration was from. Not to mention that there is one more Russian on the tree although more distant . Otherwise feel free to explain why would the direction of migration would be from Montenegro towards Northern Romania and Rostov?
it's found in Cyclades and Calabria,so basically Greek core territory and it took part in the Greek colonization of Italy. Greeks had a colony on the Montenegrin coast too.
It's found in Spain, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Ireland, Poland, Armenia as well...
To think that the Greeks have spread it there is far fetched if you ask me. If your branch was Greek in fact(which I am not saying it can't really be) we would likely see a founder effect well into IA when those Greek colonies were formed. Until then, I am not on the opinion that it was Greek. One flower doesn't make a spring as well, no matter how good a Greek ancestry sounds to you because I see that you can very easily accept a Greek and Vlach origin but when it comes to Albanian origin than is only a limited area, according to you Eastern Montenegro.
the Balkan subclade of i-z63 originates from somewhere near the Montenegro/Albania border. The closest subclades of Macuras are found in north Albanians. so there was probably Gothic man in this area from whom all these subclades descend.
There are not many Gothic traces in the Balkans, they mainly passed from here and left for Italy and Iberia. Again, Gothic or not, it was well assimilated when it was introduced in your ethnic corpus and there were no more Goths during that time. So the Vlach origin doesn't sound very convincing here. If it was assimilated into something, why would that something be a Vlach rather than an Albanian when there are so many brothers Albanians? Then again, wasn't the word Vlach applied independently of language and mostly because of a status? That's what some Serb users around here were saying as I remember. According to that, the Vlach origin doesn't necessarily mean a real Vlach origin...
i didn't look much into these two, but to me they seem quite obviously recent Albanian admixture among Serbs. They are found wherever Albanians are found, so the proto-Albanians had and spread them. and Serbs only have them in the Serbian/Albanian border areas and among Serbs who originate from there.[/QUOTE]
Dont be offended, but how is possible that you are average, and all rest of us are eccentric?
https://i.imgur.com/Hv0kl0D.jpg
Your Celto-Germanic is very high, and Slavic low for Serbian people.
Where did u get this statistic? can u include me?
vbnetkhio
03-19-2020, 07:23 PM
Aromanians have common ancestors with proto-Romanians not with the Romanians. Those proto-Aromanian and proto-Romanian people spoke Eastern Romance, a variant of Vulgar Latin spoken in the Balkans, more specifically east of Morava river and north of the Jirecek line. However, the Jirecek line should not be taken as a very precise argument because Latin speaking people were living south of that line judging by some Latin inscriptions found south of that line although the majority of the inscriptions are on Greek. Plus the Thracian tribe of Bessi was recorded speaking their own language well into the early Medieval period and they were living south of that line. On top of that, the inscriptions found that helped Jirecek draw that line are mostly a product of the city folks or the true Romans, whether Latin or Greek speaking. The way of living of the Aromanians and the Romanians as recorded early in the history is quite different than the Romans and their high culture. Both Aromanians and proto-Romanians's way of living and manners as recorded by many(for example the Jewish traveller Benjamin of Tudela who records how the Vlachs in Greece descended from the mountains and were atacking the Greeks) look more of a native Latinized tribe of the Balkans than that of highly cultured Romans. In accordance of that Eastern Romance was spoken in the Balkans already when the Slavs arrived and the first Vlachs in Greece are already recorded in the 10th century(Georgios Kedrenos's account), while in the same time we have a record about Vlachs in Transylvania according to some Hungarian accounts like Gesta Hungarorum. Therefore the common ancestors of the Aromanians and the Romanians couldn't have lived around the 10th century but much earlier. It seems that there was an uninterrupted chain of Eastern Romance speakers all the way from the mountains of Transylvania to the mountains of Greece and Macedonia, speakers who were shepherds and a highly mobile population, a chain that was interrupted with the Bulgarian conquest of modern south-east Serbia and Northern Macedonia. So both groups of Vlachs were cut off in the same manner the South Slavs were cut off from the other Slavs, around the middle of the 9th century with the Bulgar conquest of the area. Usually the period between the 9th and the 12th century is taken by the linguists as the time when the Aromanian and the Romanian split off and the 9th century looks the most appropriate having in mind the Bulgar invasion. Having in mind that, the Aromanians and the Romanians could still have a common language(Eastern Romance) ancestor and still be not much related among each other genetically if we follow the principles as to how some other groups(take Slavs for example) who speak related languages and yet there is a big gap between the Northern Slavs and the Southern Slavs. Of course, this gap would have been minimal in the contact areas but in the most distant areas could have been reality. Probably that's why some haplogroups and subclades common among the Aromanians could not be found among the Romanians and vice versa...
Even the Bulgarians were mentioned as Vlachs in the past(The Vlacho-Bulgar Empire) and their leaders having Vlach names(Ioannitsa), proclaimed themselves Autocrators and Kings of the Bulgarians and the Vlachs and of Bulgaria and Vlachia, even though Vlachia in Romania wasn't included in the Kingdom.
So where this Vlachia could have been located?
Byzantine princess Anna Commena, who writes in the 12th century, mentions numerous Vlachs, nomads living in Bulgaria. The time when this Byzantine princess wrote, what was considered Bulgaria was the Byzantine theme of Bulgaria roughly located in most of present day Macedonia and south-eastern and eastern Serbia. The creators of the restored state, Asen dynasty, appealed to the traditions of the old Bulgarian state, but they were of Cuman-Vlach origin and adopted the title of tsar of Bulgarians, Vlachs and Cumans. It should be noted that during the reign of the Asen, the present day Vlachia in Romania was known as Cumania. Bulgarian tsar sent to the Pope the Archbishop of Bulgaria and Vlachia,
Basil, while Innocent III in his edict of 25 February 1204 gave royal crown to Kaloyan and established the Roman Catholic Church for the province of Bulgaria and Blachia/Vlachia. It can be concluded that the Bulgarian state entered the territory so densely populated by Vlachs that it could have been named Vlachia, and that it had to have some specific administrative framework as it was considered a province. Additionally, chroniclers of the fourth crusade, Geoffroy de Villardhuin and Robert de Clari, referred to the Bulgarian tsar as John of Vlachia(Blakia). One might ask where this Vlahia province was situated if the modern province of Vlachia in Romania was known as Cumania back then?
Robert de Clari wrote that it was a province bordering Cumania and belonging to the Byzantine emperor, who rebelled against him. It was harsh and inaccessible land, which could have been accessed only by ravines. Undoubtedly, we cannot identify this Vlachia with the Wallachian Plain, as most recently historiography does, because 1) it could have been accessed very easily from the south, 2) it never belonged to Byzantine Empire. In the light of these chroniclers Vlachia must be placed in the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria, which was located in modern North-Western Bulgaria and South and Eastern Serbia or what we know today as Torlakian region:
https://i.postimg.cc/GmKvTt0h/Valachia.png (https://postimages.org/)
So probably these Vlachs contributed in both Serbs and Bulgarians gene pool. It might be that some of these Vlachs migrated lately in more western Serbian areas such as Montenegro or Bosnia...
this is interesting. i didn't know about these historical sources about Vlachia. it matches with the area where some authors place the proto-Romanians. these sources really speaks in favor of that theory.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/The_Vlachs-Wallachians.png
but these proto-eastern-Romance people were just one group of Vlachs. other areas had their local Vlachs.
this language was spoken on the Montenegrin coast and it was very different from Romanian and Aromanian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
The Sarmatian tribe Lazyges are mentioned as inhabitants of Pannonia and Transylvania however they were probably not the only Sarmatians judging by the Ptolemy's account of the Roman city of Serbinum in Pannonia. If these tribes were indeed Vlachs as you mention and not shepherds then they were probably not of the same stock as these Vlachs in the Torlakian region but their origin can be traced to Pannonia and the Latin speaking inhabitants there among who even these Sarmatians could have been included. Therefore, the distant origin of this N2 Serbian and Montenegrin group as Sarmatian is not far fetched. They could have lived in the plains and steppes of Southern Russia(a cousin in Rostov) and Southern Ukraine before descending to Romania and Montenegro(Their immediate upstream matches show dispersion as that of the Sarmatians). We can see a distant cousin in the British isles as well, the Sarmatians are well recorded to have been in the British isles, mainly as mercenaries for the Romans.
That's already impossible to prove even if you test all living Montenegrins and Serbs. It's not only the Romanian but there is the Russian from Rostov. It's quite clear where the direction of migration was from. Not to mention that there is one more Russian on the tree although more distant . Otherwise feel free to explain why would the direction of migration would be from Montenegro towards Northern Romania and Rostov?
that close Russian is of Serbian origin. the more distant one is an Altayan, they were the original carriers of this haplogroup. an Iranic group near Altai picked up this haplogroup , and later brought it to Hungary around 1000 bc.
these were the Mezőcsát culture "pre-Scythian" people. they weren't exactly Scythians or Sarmatians but a related Iranic people. at one point, after 1000 bc, a man from Hungary migrated south and brought that haplogroup into the Montenegrin mountains. we can't know when exactly it happened. it could have been in 900 bc or in 375 ad when Huns started invading Roman Pannonia. but one way or another these N2 people were Romanized.
i meant the Dalmatian speakers in large towns on the Adriatic coast weren't shpeherds. the Vlachs in Herezgovina and Montenegro were shepherds, but they also spoke Dalmatian IMO.
as for Romania, there are 3 Montenegrin haplogroups in that part of Romania: n2, j2b1(i'ts not confirmed if it's the same subclade as the Montenegrin one), and r1a-Y5647 which is a Montenegrin Slavic haplogroup. so i think there was a migration of a small group of Montnegrins into that area, surely some time after the mixing of Slavs and Vlachs in Montenegro.
It's found in Spain, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Ireland, Poland, Armenia as well...
To think that the Greeks have spread it there is far fetched if you ask me. If your branch was Greek in fact(which I am not saying it can't really be) we would likely see a founder effect well into IA when those Greek colonies were formed. Until then, I am not on the opinion that it was Greek. One flower doesn't make a spring as well, no matter how good a Greek ancestry sounds to you because I see that you can very easily accept a Greek and Vlach origin but when it comes to Albanian origin than is only a limited area, according to you Eastern Montenegro.
e-v13 is a paleo-Balkan haplogroup. it came into existence and first expanded in the Balkans. so to me it makes the most sense that it was originally Greek, and those in Spain, Sweden etc. are Greek descendants. as for the lack of a founder effect, it could be for example a Pelasgian haplogroup, but Greeks assimilated them, so Pelasgian haplogroups also surely took part in Greek colonizations.
There are not many Gothic traces in the Balkans, they mainly passed from here and left for Italy and Iberia. Again, Gothic or not, it was well assimilated when it was introduced in your ethnic corpus and there were no more Goths during that time. So the Vlach origin doesn't sound very convincing here. If it was assimilated into something, why would that something be a Vlach rather than an Albanian when there are so many brothers Albanians? Then again, wasn't the word Vlach applied independently of language and mostly because of a status? That's what some Serb users around here were saying as I remember. According to that, the Vlach origin doesn't necessarily mean a real Vlach origin...
there are some Gothic traces. this haplogroup is one of them. look at the sister branches of the Macura subclade, they are found in places the Goths invaded, like Italy and Spain.
Pubiczar
03-20-2020, 12:47 PM
this is interesting. i didn't know about these historical sources about Vlachia. it matches with the area where some authors place the proto-Romanians. these sources really speaks in favor of that theory.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/The_Vlachs-Wallachians.png
but these proto-eastern-Romance people were just one group of Vlachs. other areas had their local Vlachs.
Yes, it matches even the toponomy because exactly in that area we find large number of toponomy of Eastern Romance extract.
this language was spoken on the Montenegrin coast and it was very different from Romanian and Aromanian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
Without any written or spoken sources as is the case with the Romanian and Aromanian it's hard to prove that the Montenegrin Vlachs spoke Dalmatian.
that close Russian is of Serbian origin. the more distant one is an Altayan, they were the original carriers of this haplogroup. an Iranic group near Altai picked up this haplogroup , and later brought it to Hungary around 1000 bc.
these were the Mezőcsát culture "pre-Scythian" people. they weren't exactly Scythians or Sarmatians but a related Iranic people. at one point, after 1000 bc, a man from Hungary migrated south and brought that haplogroup into the Montenegrin mountains. we can't know when exactly it happened. it could have been in 900 bc or in 375 ad when Huns started invading Roman Pannonia. but one way or another these N2 people were Romanized.
i meant the Dalmatian speakers in large towns on the Adriatic coast weren't shpeherds. the Vlachs in Herezgovina and Montenegro were shepherds, but they also spoke Dalmatian IMO.
as for Romania, there are 3 Montenegrin haplogroups in that part of Romania: n2, j2b1(i'ts not confirmed if it's the same subclade as the Montenegrin one), and r1a-Y5647 which is a Montenegrin Slavic haplogroup. so i think there was a migration of a small group of Montnegrins into that area, surely some time after the mixing of Slavs and Vlachs in Montenegro.
Now that you have given me these details I start to be more on the opinion that the Montenegrin Vlachs were not of Dalmatian extract but have the same origin with the proto-Romanians who must have lived in the area I've visualised on the image I've uploaded. These Vlachs were shepherds because they lived more inland while the Dalmatian Vlachs must have been more sea oriented and good sea-farers. Plus the founding effect shows this as well as it coincide with the Serbian conquest east of Morava during the late 12th and middle 13th century when finally this territory ended up in the Serbian state for good. Probably these Vlachs were far from pure Vlachs and more of Slavo-Vlachs having mixed with the Slavs who settled in the area in the early Medieval period and probably some Slavic subclades were also dispearsed by these Slavo-Vlachs. It seems that with the Serbian penetration in the area and the Mongol devastation of Cumania these Slavo-Vlachs took the opportunity to expand in the empty lands of former Cumania and to establish Wallachia now in South Romania. I am on the opinion that from these Vlachs the Meglen Vlachs can trace their origin as well because their language is much closer to Romanian than Aromanian is, a clear sign that they split off later than the Aromanians did. The Meglen Vlachs probably acted as military units of the Vlacho-Bulgarian Empire and have been settled in the are to serve as border keepers because that area where they were settled was usually the border between the Bulgarians and the Byzantines. One guy from Macedonia who's studying genetics on a foreign university made a private study about the people of Macedonia having taken samples from the Meglen Vlachs as well and according to him they are in majority R1b and I2a. But also the samples size is not big enough and will more sampling we might find some close links between the Montenegrin Vlachs, the Meglen Vlachs and the Romanians. I would also add to this group the so called Arvanito-Vlachs who descended from more Northern areas to South Albania and Greece during the 14th century and who are not the same with the Aromanians who as I said earlier, are recorded in Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia already in the 10th century and their language is recorded already in the 9th century according to some manuscripts written by St.Naum: https://www.omniglot.com/writing/aromanian.htm
The earliest known examples of written Aromanianaremanuscriptsof the Patriarch Fotius dating from around 860-870 AD, and manuscriptswritten bySt.Naumof Ohrid at about the same time. During the late 18th century many books inAromanianwere published, all written in the Greek alphabet.
I assume that these Arvanito-Vlachs have brought some of the same haplogroups found in these Vlachs from the Torlakian region.
e-v13 is a paleo-Balkan haplogroup. it came into existence and first expanded in the Balkans. so to me it makes the most sense that it was originally Greek, and those in Spain, Sweden etc. are Greek descendants. as for the lack of a founder effect, it could be for example a Pelasgian haplogroup, but Greeks assimilated them, so Pelasgian haplogroups also surely took part in Greek colonizations.
The dispersion of E-V13 in the Balkans shows signs of matching with the flow of the Danube river. That's a Northern area where the Greeks are not recorded to have been living nor do we know exactly where from the Indo-European element among them came from. Most probably the expansion of E-Z1057 started in the Western fringes of Yamnaya, somewhere around the Pontic steppe and the Black sea. From here, earlier splinter groups of which the Vasojevici subclade belong migrated to the west with the other Yamnaya groups, mainly R-Z2103, into Western Balkans and the Vucedol culture following the Danube river. While other groups to who E-BY3880 was found stayed behind and later found themselves in the Western fringes of the Catacomb culture. Groups from the Catacomb culture would later migrate in all directions, Multi-cordoned ware groups to who the Thracians belonged would migrate to the Balkans while other groups, among who Italic and Celtic groups will follow Danube and further west into Western Europe.
Basically as you can see, E-Z1057 has very little to do with the early Greeks and we don't even know who exactly were the Pelasgians and what kind of language they spoke. No wonder that all samples from ancient Greeks till now were majority J2a and some G's. I could bet my gut that E-V13 was very miniscule group among the early Greeks if was even found among them.
Furthermore, the nativity of this Vasojevici subclade all the way to Vucedol culture can be proved by the fact that there are already three different subclades (Montenegrin, Serb and Albanian) found on a such a small area. The diversity undoubtedly is around there and not in Greece. I am not even sure how common this Greek subclade is in Greece but from what I've seen till now, the Greek E-V13 haplotypes don't show much diversity and many have argued that the majority of E-V13 in Greece came later, during the BA collapse and further on.
there are some Gothic traces. this haplogroup is one of them. look at the sister branches of the Macura subclade, they are found in places the Goths invaded, like Italy and Spain.
Aham, I will check this later as my interest for this haplogroup is not very strong as is for some others.
Dušan
03-20-2020, 03:19 PM
Where did u get this statistic? can u include me?
Post your K13 result.
Post your K13 result.
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 28.39
2 North_Atlantic 27.26
3 West_Med 19.07
4 East_Med 13.43
5 West_Asian 7.34
6 Red_Sea 1.92
7 Amerindian 1.05
8 East_Asian 0.68
9 Oceanian 0.49
10 Northeast_African 0.37
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 4.3
2 Romanian 7.08
3 Moldavian 7.44
4 Hungarian 8.45
5 Croatian 8.75
6 Bulgarian 9.35
7 Austrian 10.72
8 East_German 12.04
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.33
10 South_Polish 15.83
11 West_German 15.9
12 Ukrainian 16.49
13 French 16.86
14 Greek_Thessaly 17.06
15 North_Italian 17.15
16 South_Dutch 17.21
17 Polish 19.25
18 Portuguese 19.39
19 Spanish_Galicia 19.44
20 Tuscan 19.56
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.6% Croatian + 33.4% North_Italian @ 1.91
2 69.6% Croatian + 30.4% Tuscan @ 2.14
3 54.3% Ukrainian + 45.7% Tuscan @ 2.19
4 55% North_Italian + 45% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.47
5 56.2% Ukrainian_Lviv + 43.8% Tuscan @ 2.54
6 70.8% Moldavian + 29.2% North_Italian @ 2.56
7 54.5% North_Italian + 45.5% Southwest_Russian @ 2.56
8 75.6% Moldavian + 24.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.76
9 52.9% Ukrainian_Lviv + 47.1% North_Italian @ 2.77
10 50.4% Polish + 49.6% Tuscan @ 2.77
11 51% Ukrainian + 49% North_Italian @ 2.8
12 76.7% Moldavian + 23.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.89
13 75.9% Moldavian + 24.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.91
14 75.1% Moldavian + 24.9% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.92
15 73.7% Moldavian + 26.3% Portuguese @ 2.92
16 58.4% Tuscan + 41.6% Lithuanian @ 2.97
17 76.9% Moldavian + 23.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.06
18 75.4% Moldavian + 24.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.07
19 52.8% Tuscan + 47.2% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.09
20 79% Moldavian + 21% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.19
Here bro, hvala!
...
@joannadi38, if you are here, take a look at this Serbian result
54.3% Ukrainian + 45.7% Tuscan @ 2.19
Exactly what I was talking about. Balkan Slavs are roughly in between Ukraine/Russia/Poland and Greece/Italy/Albania.
@joannadi38, if you are here, take a look at this Serbian result
54.3% Ukrainian + 45.7% Tuscan @ 2.19
Exactly what I was talking about. Balkan Slavs are roughly in between Ukraine/Russia/Poland and Greece/Italy/Albania.
So u mean im 50 % paleo balkan and 50% slav?
So u mean im 50 % paleo balkan and 50% slav?
Maybe, roughly speaking. Some South Slavs are obviously more than 50% Northeastern Euro. Feiichy is 32% Baltic and 29% North_Atlantic for example. There are even more Northern Croats and Bosniaks than her.
Dušan
03-20-2020, 04:48 PM
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 28.39
2 North_Atlantic 27.26
3 West_Med 19.07
4 East_Med 13.43
5 West_Asian 7.34
6 Red_Sea 1.92
7 Amerindian 1.05
8 East_Asian 0.68
9 Oceanian 0.49
10 Northeast_African 0.37
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 4.3
2 Romanian 7.08
3 Moldavian 7.44
4 Hungarian 8.45
5 Croatian 8.75
6 Bulgarian 9.35
7 Austrian 10.72
8 East_German 12.04
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.33
10 South_Polish 15.83
11 West_German 15.9
12 Ukrainian 16.49
13 French 16.86
14 Greek_Thessaly 17.06
15 North_Italian 17.15
16 South_Dutch 17.21
17 Polish 19.25
18 Portuguese 19.39
19 Spanish_Galicia 19.44
20 Tuscan 19.56
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.6% Croatian + 33.4% North_Italian @ 1.91
2 69.6% Croatian + 30.4% Tuscan @ 2.14
3 54.3% Ukrainian + 45.7% Tuscan @ 2.19
4 55% North_Italian + 45% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.47
5 56.2% Ukrainian_Lviv + 43.8% Tuscan @ 2.54
6 70.8% Moldavian + 29.2% North_Italian @ 2.56
7 54.5% North_Italian + 45.5% Southwest_Russian @ 2.56
8 75.6% Moldavian + 24.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.76
9 52.9% Ukrainian_Lviv + 47.1% North_Italian @ 2.77
10 50.4% Polish + 49.6% Tuscan @ 2.77
11 51% Ukrainian + 49% North_Italian @ 2.8
12 76.7% Moldavian + 23.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.89
13 75.9% Moldavian + 24.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.91
14 75.1% Moldavian + 24.9% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.92
15 73.7% Moldavian + 26.3% Portuguese @ 2.92
16 58.4% Tuscan + 41.6% Lithuanian @ 2.97
17 76.9% Moldavian + 23.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.06
18 75.4% Moldavian + 24.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.07
19 52.8% Tuscan + 47.2% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.09
20 79% Moldavian + 21% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.19
Here bro, hvala!
Here.
https://i.imgur.com/lCvfmnB.jpg
Very close distance, only 1.5%.
Here.
https://i.imgur.com/lCvfmnB.jpg
Very close distance, only 1.5%.
How much Early Slavic are you?
Dušan
03-20-2020, 04:55 PM
How much Early Slavic are you?
https://i.imgur.com/4hkgNxb.jpg
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?317301-Serbian-K3-calculator&p=6552110&viewfull=1#post6552110
How much Early Slavic are you?
There is an early Slav sample from Viminacium in the Balkans but I have doubts that the paper will come out this year now
There is an early Slav sample from Viminacium in the Balkans but I have doubts that the paper will come out this year now
Would be extremely interesting to see if he was pure or mixed.
Would be extremely interesting to see if he was pure or mixed.
Yes hopefully. Actually from Gomolava archaeological site
75 samples, 52 are from Viminacium (four necropoli: Pirivoj (100-400 AD) - 19; Rit (0-300 AD) - 13; Više Grobalja (0-300 AD) - 10 and Pećine (0-300 AD) - 10) and 17 from Timacum Minus (two necropoli: Slog (300-500 AD) - 11 and Kuline (400-700 AD) - 6). There are also 1 Roman and 1 Late Medieval sample from Lepenski Vir, 2 Gepid samples (300-500 AD) from Mediana (near Niš/Naisos) and [b]1 Medieval (850-950 AD) sample from Gomolava (this one belongs to I2-Din, so he's most likely Slavic)[b].
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Serbia_adm_location_map.svg
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 05:05 PM
https://i.imgur.com/4hkgNxb.jpg
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?317301-Serbian-K3-calculator&p=6552110&viewfull=1#post6552110
Can you made for this Dalmatian Serb down https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?318828-Serbian-Autosomal-DNA&p=6550076&viewfull=1#post6550076
It's interesting to see that calculator fot someone who score 35% Baltic on K13 and who is lack of Celto-Germanic influence (I think because he score low North_Atlantic).
Dušan
03-20-2020, 05:14 PM
Can you made for this Dalmatian Serb down https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?318828-Serbian-Autosomal-DNA&p=6550076&viewfull=1#post6550076
post #199
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 05:17 PM
...
Dušan
03-20-2020, 05:17 PM
its differnt sample. first in post. my mistake
Dušan
03-20-2020, 05:18 PM
0% Celto-Germanic!
Funny, because ha carry Germanic y dna. :)
To je prvi u vbentkhiovom postu koji si stavio.
Sad ću da uradim
Dušan
03-20-2020, 05:19 PM
You want for this sample?
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.28
2 North_Atlantic 22.18
3 West_Med 17.42
4 East_Med 16.16
5 West_Asian 5.31
6 Siberian 1.04
7 Amerindian 0.7
8 South_Asian 0.62
9 Oceanian 0.52
10 Northeast_African 0.3
11 East_Asian 0.27
12 Sub-Saharan 0.19
Moje ime
03-20-2020, 05:19 PM
0% Celto-Germanic!
Funny, because ha carry Germanic y dna. :)
Because it is probably nothing Germanic but Celtic (that admixture we have here and call Celto-Germanic).
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 05:19 PM
To je prvi u vbentkhiovom postu koji si stavio.
Sad ću da uradim
OK, obrisao sam prethodnu poruku.
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 05:20 PM
You want for this sample?
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.28
2 North_Atlantic 22.18
3 West_Med 17.42
4 East_Med 16.16
5 West_Asian 5.31
6 Siberian 1.04
7 Amerindian 0.7
8 South_Asian 0.62
9 Oceanian 0.52
10 Northeast_African 0.3
11 East_Asian 0.27
12 Sub-Saharan 0.19
Yes.
That is guy from village near Skradin.
Dušan
03-20-2020, 05:23 PM
You want for this sample?
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.28
2 North_Atlantic 22.18
3 West_Med 17.42
4 East_Med 16.16
5 West_Asian 5.31
6 Siberian 1.04
7 Amerindian 0.7
8 South_Asian 0.62
9 Oceanian 0.52
10 Northeast_African 0.3
11 East_Asian 0.27
12 Sub-Saharan 0.19
https://i.imgur.com/MPcKm8D.jpg
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 05:31 PM
Because it is probably nothing Germanic but Celtic (that admixture we have here and call Celto-Germanic).
Bosniensis would be disagre that his y dna is Germanic, he would say paleo-European.
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 05:33 PM
https://i.imgur.com/MPcKm8D.jpg
No Celto-Germanic, as I expected.
What North Atlantic score on K13 is roughly enough to somebody got little Celto-Germanic on that calculator? 23-24?
Dušan
03-20-2020, 05:35 PM
No Celto-Germanic, as I expected.
What North Atlantic score on K13 is roughly enough to somebody got little Celto-Germanic on that calculator? 23-24?
Yes, I think it is correct percentage in Serbian situation, where we have 2-3 components.
Here.
https://i.imgur.com/lCvfmnB.jpg
Very close distance, only 1.5%.
Close distance? Where do my celto comefrom? Is it average?
Dušan
03-20-2020, 07:13 PM
Close distance? Where do my celto comefrom? Is it average?
Close distance means that my calculator is correct. :) You almost totally fit among these historical samples on whichs this calculator was made.
My theory is that Celto-Germanic component among Serbs came from Slavs from Czechia, who already had assimilated some Celtic population there.
Settling Slavs to Balkans was from several direction. Those who came from northwest (Czechia, Lužica) have some Celto-Germanic component, those who came from northeast (Ukraine) dont have it.
Close distance means that my calculator is correct. :) You almost totally fit among these historical samples on whichs this calculator was made.
My theory is that Celto-Germanic component among Serbs came from Slavs from Czechia, who already had assimilated some Celtic population there.
Settling Slavs to Balkans was from several direction. Those who came from northwest (Czechia, Lužica) have some Celto-Germanic component, those who came from northeast (Ukraine) dont have it.
is my average close to serbian standard? do i have more paleo balkan % than average?
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 09:50 PM
Hey Shiptar troll, sockpuputs are not allowed on this forum!
Hey Shiptar troll, sockpuputs are not allowed on this forum!
I don't see any trolling in his post.
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 10:01 PM
I don't see any trolling in his post.
He spread fantasies. Macure until 15th century lived in Lim Valley and they were part of agriculture group known as "Srbljaci." Macure were pushed by Vasojevići sheperds when they arrived from somewhere to the Lim Valley.
Lim Valley is the heart of Raška, and Albanians never lived there. In the middle age Albanian core was Mat region, they were minority even in present day North Albania not to mention Skadar.
I recognize manuscript of my bald friend Dema!
Dušan
03-20-2020, 10:08 PM
According to Hamp and Noel, Kosovo had a proto-Romanian-Albanian population but most of these seemed to of fused into Slavs
You can especially see this by the names marked as ''Arbanas'' which meant Albanian, some of these were Orthodox with Slavic names but bore Albanian tribal names, most of them fused into Slavs. What was left of Albanians in Kosovo were mostly a Catholic minority that lived in it's Western Parts around Prizren and Pec, these seemed to of become Muslims. Later also migrations from the Malsia happened and into the plains of Kosovo.
There were also Vlachs recorded. Kosovo had long Slavic rule first Bulgarian and then Serbian. What was left of it's native population seemed to of totally disappeared up until Ottoman conquest.
A branch of Vlachs seemed to of migrated into Romania while another one more South.
The same pattern occurred in most parts of Montenegro, most of the Albanian-Vlach tribes there fused into the Slavs, got expelled or went extinct.
It is true some Albanian tribes migrated there later but there were other Albanians that had already lived there, same thing for Kosovo.
Even Kuqi seem to of originated in Montenegro anyway.
Remember also Montenegro occupied parts of Kelemendi and what is today Gruda tribal area and some of those areas around in Southern Montenegro where Albanians are native. But Albanian presence seem to of even been recorded even in central Montenegro. However these tribes seem to of gone extinct.
Albanians have migrated later into the South and other places no doubt.
Pre-Slavic population of Kosovo and other parts of Serbia was completly assimilated by Serbs. They are part of our ancestors, what our autosomal dna prooves.
There are no Albanians in Kosovo before late 17th century when Ottomans settled them.
Pribislav
03-20-2020, 10:10 PM
Pre-Slavic population of Kosovo and other parts of Serbia was completly assimilated by Serbs. They are part of our ancestors, what our autosomal dna prooves.
There are no Albanians in Kosovo before late 17th century when Ottomans settled them.
+1
Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 36.86
2 North_Atlantic 22.55
3 West_Med 12.99
4 East_Med 11.14
5 West_Asian 9.82
6 Red_Sea 3.61
7 Oceanian 1.13
8 Siberian 0.89
9 South_Asian 0.88
10 Sub-Saharan 0.07
11 East_Asian 0.06
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Moldavian 4.49
2 Croatian 5.46
3 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.53
4 Ukrainian 10.1
5 Hungarian 10.35
6 South_Polish 10.48
7 Serbian 10.53
8 Southwest_Russian 12.11
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 12.2
10 Polish 13.14
11 Romanian 13.28
12 Russian_Smolensk 14.13
13 Bulgarian 14.67
14 East_German 14.79
15 Austrian 14.8
16 Estonian_Polish 14.8
17 Belorussian 15.54
18 Kargopol_Russian 16.37
19 Erzya 17.22
20 Tatar 18.68
i found bosniak eurogenes
Bosniak. His last name is as non-white as it can possibly be - Islamović xD
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.3
2 North_Atlantic 23.89
3 West_Med 16.49
4 East_Med 11.05
5 West_Asian 7.54
6 Red_Sea 2.17
7 Siberian 1.08
8 Amerindian 1.04
9 Sub-Saharan 0.53
10 South_Asian 0.4
11 Oceanian 0.37
12 Northeast_African 0.11
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Moldavian 3.16
2 Croatian 3.95
3 Serbian 8.82
4 Hungarian 8.85
5 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.23
6 Ukrainian 10.43
7 South_Polish 10.79
8 Romanian 11.78
9 East_German 12.95
10 Austrian 12.97
11 Bulgarian 13.4
12 Polish 13.71
13 Southwest_Russian 13.82
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 14.25
15 Russian_Smolensk 15.52
16 Estonian_Polish 15.91
17 Belorussian 16.79
18 Kargopol_Russian 17.64
19 Erzya 19.14
20 Southwest_Finnish 19.94
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.3% Ukrainian + 31.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.47
2 71.1% Ukrainian_Lviv + 28.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.56
3 74.8% Ukrainian + 25.2% East_Sicilian @ 2.58
4 76.7% Ukrainian + 23.3% South_Italian @ 2.65
5 74.1% Ukrainian + 25.9% Central_Greek @ 2.65
6 79.1% Ukrainian + 20.9% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.67
7 81.2% Ukrainian_Lviv + 18.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.69
8 59.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 40.2% Bulgarian @ 2.76
9 56.6% Ukrainian + 43.4% Bulgarian @ 2.82
10 79.1% Ukrainian_Lviv + 20.9% South_Italian @ 2.85
11 77.4% Ukrainian_Lviv + 22.6% East_Sicilian @ 2.89
12 67.9% Moldavian + 32.1% Croatian @ 2.89
13 76.7% Ukrainian_Lviv + 23.3% Central_Greek @ 2.9
14 93.2% Moldavian + 6.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.95
15 74.7% Ukrainian + 25.3% West_Sicilian @ 2.95
16 94.3% Croatian + 5.7% Cyprian @ 2.95
17 94.9% Croatian + 5.1% Samaritan @ 2.95
18 94.2% Croatian + 5.8% Tunisian @ 2.96
19 93.6% Croatian + 6.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.96
20 90.3% Moldavian + 9.7% Ukrainian @ 2.97
Population
Gedrosia 4.66 Pct
Siberian 0.87 Pct
Northwest_African 0.41 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 25.46 Pct
North_European 45.18 Pct
South_Asian 0.79 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 5.45 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 17.18 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
Another Bosniak, surname Krdzaliic. She is super Northern
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 36.51
2 North_Atlantic 27.22
3 West_Med 14.21
4 East_Med 12.11
5 West_Asian 7.25
6 Siberian 0.95
7 East_Asian 0.75
8 Sub-Saharan 0.53
9 Red_Sea 0.31
10 Northeast_African 0.16
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Croatian 3.1
2 Moldavian 4.93
3 Hungarian 6.73
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.12
5 South_Polish 8.23
6 Ukrainian 8.76
7 Serbian 9.24
8 East_German 10.95
9 Austrian 11.14
10 Polish 11.83
11 Southwest_Russian 12.21
12 Ukrainian_Belgorod 12.67
13 Romanian 12.96
14 Russian_Smolensk 13.9
15 Estonian_Polish 14.27
16 Belorussian 14.77
17 Bulgarian 14.88
18 Kargopol_Russian 16.71
19 Southwest_Finnish 17.37
20 Erzya 18.53
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 64.9% South_Polish + 35.1% Bulgarian @ 1.99
2 51.4% Ukrainian + 48.6% Serbian @ 2.16
3 74.8% South_Polish + 25.2% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.17
4 83.4% South_Polish + 16.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.19
5 78.6% Ukrainian + 21.4% West_Sicilian @ 2.23
6 60.1% Ukrainian + 39.9% Romanian @ 2.26
7 80.5% South_Polish + 19.5% Ashkenazi @ 2.29
8 67.8% Southwest_Russian + 32.2% North_Italian @ 2.31
9 63.5% Ukrainian + 36.5% Bulgarian @ 2.34
10 82.5% Ukrainian + 17.5% Italian_Jewish @ 2.36
11 77.9% Ukrainian + 22.1% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.36
12 83.5% South_Polish + 16.5% Italian_Jewish @ 2.37
13 61.2% Serbian + 38.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.37
14 55.9% Polish + 44.1% Bulgarian @ 2.38
15 79.6% South_Polish + 20.4% Central_Greek @ 2.4
16 81.6% South_Polish + 18.4% South_Italian @ 2.4
17 55.8% Bulgarian + 44.2% Estonian @ 2.4
18 68.2% Serbian + 31.8% Lithuanian @ 2.41
19 53.4% Romanian + 46.6% Belorussian @ 2.42
20 80.2% South_Polish + 19.8% East_Sicilian @ 2.45
Population
Gedrosia 3.17 Pct
Siberian 1.08 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian 0.21 Pct
Atlantic_Med 25.55 Pct
North_European 47.08 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 4.23 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 18.68 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
Bosniensis
04-10-2020, 07:43 PM
....
Ukrainian Bosniaks.
It seems that genetically I don't fit among the Bosniaks.
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