[SPLIT] Genetic tests (moved from 'Italians' thread

[Psychonaut]

Sicily has been occupied throughout history by Moors, Arabs, Phoenicians, Jews, and various other African and Middle Eastern groups. All have provided some degree of genetic input into the population, and while Sicilians may be racially caucasian, they have a far greater degree of non-European input than most Continentals.

Like I've said before, I think you're overestimating the degree to which this admixture prevails. According to recent studies (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/sicilians-have-10-sub-saharan-african-dna/), only 4.4% of Sicilians bear sub-Saharan African mtDNA markers. Given their proximity to Africa, it's actually quite remarkable that it's not higher.

[Loyalist]

Like I've said before, I think you're overestimating the degree to which this admixture prevails. According to recent studies (http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/sicilians-have-10-sub-saharan-african-dna/), only 4.4% of Sicilians bear sub-Saharan African mtDNA markers. Given their proximity to Africa, it's actually quite remarkable that it's not higher.

There are other studies which indicate sub-Saharan admixture in Sicilians is far higher, but you tend to question their credibility, so continuing with this is redundant. In either case, it remains the highest, or close to the highest, in Europe. However, I'm not strictly speaking about sub-Saharan input, but also of the various North African and Middle Eastern peoples (specified in my previous post), which are a far greater presence in the Sicilian genepool.

[jerney]

Sicily has been occupied throughout history by Moors, Arabs, Phoenicians, Jews, and various other African and Middle Eastern groups. All have provided some degree of genetic input into the population, and while Sicilians may be racially caucasian, they have a far greater degree of non-European input than most Continentals.

How do you substantiate these claims of pure European descent? How far has your ancestry been traced, and in how many branches? Why the shift in calling yourself English/German, when I thought your unique interpretation of what constitutes "ethnicity" prevented you from doing so?

I would agree that Sicilians on average would tend to have more non-European admixture when compared to other Europeans (save for Finno-Ugric populations), but it's minor and to claim they're not European, or that it extends into most of Italy is absurd.

I already knew my ancestry for generations and generations. I knew there wasn't anything non-European and a DNA test (currently the most reputable one available) proved this.

http://i43.tinypic.com/ndmq39.jpg

[Psychonaut]

There are other studies which indicate sub-Saharan admixture in Sicilians is far higher

Which ones? I just went through the whole thread and, so far, the only link you posted relating to Italians was one from white-history.com which is about as suspect as they come.


However, I'm not strictly speaking about sub-Saharan input, but also of the various North African and Middle Eastern peoples (specified in my previous post), which are a far greater presence in the Sicilian genepool.

The thing about North African DNA is that it's nearly impossible to tell from the kinds of studies that have been publicized whether or not the amount of J2 and E3b (both of which are common all along the Mediterranean coast) are there because of the original Neolithic migrations or from more recent movements.

[Loyalist]

I would agree that Sicilians on average would tend to have more non-European admixture when compared to other Europeans (save for Finno-Ugric populations), but it's minor and to claim they're not European, or that it extends into most of Italy is absurd.

I posted an example of a Negroid phenotype from mainland Italy HERE (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2835&postcount=1). There are others, of course, but I'm still awaiting an explanation for this one.


I already knew my ancestry for generations and generations. I knew there wasn't anything non-European and a DNA test (currently the most reputable one available) proved this.

http://i43.tinypic.com/ndmq39.jpg

DNA tests do not show everything, and this one in particular groups the caucasian groups of North Africa and Western Asia into the European spectrum. Even if the presence of Moors, Jews, or any other group I highlighted was detected, it would show up as European. That's why I value hard ancestral documentation over these ridiculous DNA tests .

[jerney]

DNA tests do not show everything, and this one in particular groups the caucasian groups of North Africa and Western Asia into the European spectrum. Even if the presence of Moors, Jews, or any other group I highlighted was detected, it would show up as European. That's why I value hard ancestral documentation over these ridiculous DNA tests .

lol but they are perfectly suitable to use as evidence when you want to claim Italians and other Southern Europeans have non-European admixture? At least learn to argue with some consistency. (And btw that is why there are more localised clusters available, which tell you where you fit into the European spectrum)

[Electronic God-Man]

That's why I value hard ancestral documentation over these ridiculous DNA tests .

No one would be able to show hard ancestral documentation from the time of the Moors in Sicily anyway, unless I am mistaken about how long ago that was or how good records were in Sicily.

[Psychonaut]

No one would be able to show hard ancestral documentation from the time of the Moors in Sicily anyway, unless I am mistaken about how long ago that was or how good records were in Sicily.

Exactly. Which is why, as flawed as current haplogroup tests are, they're a much better indication of a region's ancestral composition than are guesstimations.

[Loyalist]

lol but they are perfectly suitable to use as evidence when you want to claim Italians and other Southern Europeans have non-European admixture? At least learn to argue with some consistency. (And btw that is why there are more localised clusters available, which tells you where you fit in in the European spectrum)

You might recall that I tend to use historical evidence regarding this matter, instead genetic studies. History, and common sense, shows that, after centuries spent under occupation from the groups I've mentioned, inter-marriage between the islanders and successive waves of invaders is inevitable. Sicily is, by the way, the most conquered land in Europe. Collective DNA results for the entire Sicilian populace cannot be constrasted to a single individual examining a test which is largely limited to one's direct paternal and maternal ancestors, and I've only posted them for the sake of argument when others cite similar studies to counter my position. Take your own advice about consistency.

[jerney]

You might recall that I tend to use historical evidence regarding this matter, instead genetic studies. History, and common sense, shows that, after centuries spent under occupation from the groups I've mentioned, inter-marriage between the islanders and successive waves of invaders is inevitable. Sicily is, by the way, the most conquered land in Europe. Collective DNA results for the entire Sicilian populace cannot be constrasted to a single individual examining a test which is largely limited to one's direct paternal and maternal ancestors, and I've only posted them for the sake of argument when others cite similar studies to counter my position. Take your own advice about consistency.

It looks like genetics are trumping history this time.

[Brynhild]

Jerney, I haven't looked at your chart properly, but I'm wondering if it is your MtDNA or if the male in your family submitted a swab for the Y testing.

Either way, the test only shows one side of the DNA strain, having had a MtDNA test done myself.

Loyalist, I normally value your insight and opinions, but I don't see much in the way of evidence as to how far the Arab and North African admixture goes back to in Italy and Sicily. There's no doubting that they were there, the question is how far back.

A dead horse has been flogged, and without adequate proof it will continue to be so.

[jerney]

Jerney, I haven't looked at your chart properly, but I'm wondering if it is your MtDNA or if the male in your family submitted a swab for the Y testing.

Either way, the test only shows one side of the DNA strain, having had a MtDNA test done myself.


Brynhild, no that's not accurate. Only the MtDNA haplogroup is from your mother, obviously, but the rest of your information and the plotting comes from both your father's and mother's ancestry. If you want to know the most about your ancestry you wouldn't necessarily go with the MtDNA or Y-dna as it only really gives you the information about your deep ancestral roots sometimes tens of thousands of years back.

For example, someone on another board who was half East Asian (mom) and half European (dad) clustered with an ethnic group which was approximately half European, half Asian (Uyghur). And her overall ancestry was shown as 50% European, 50% Asian. This test seems to be very accurate, even the clusters.

[Loyalist]

Brynhild, no that's not accurate. Only the MtDNA haplogroup is from your mother, obviously, but the rest of your information and the plotting comes from both your father's and mother's ancestry.

For example someone on another board who was half East Asian (mom) and half European (dad) clustered with an ethnic group which was approximately half European, half Asian (Uyghur). And her overall ancestry was shown as 50% European, 50% Asian. This test seems to be very accurate, even the clusters.

That's not accurate; MtDNA comes from your direct maternal line, wheras a Y-Chromosome test, which cannot be taken by you, only shows your direct paternal line. Since your Italian/Sicilian ancestry does not fall into either of those, it would not show, African genes or not.

[jerney]

That's not accurate; MtDNA comes from your direct maternal line, wheras a Y-Chromosome test, which cannot be taken by you, only shows your direct paternal line. Since your Italian/Sicilian ancestry does not fall into either of those, it would not show, African genes or not.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Nowhere did I state anything contrary to what you just said about the Y-dna or MtDNA. The plotting is more accurate of your ancestry than either Y-dna or MtDNA test is either way. If I had "African genes" from my Italian family, it would show. They would not have to be directly descended from me either maternally or paternally (assuming they could be) to detect admixture.

[Loyalist]

If I had "African genes" from my Italian family, it would show.

No, it wouldn't.

[jerney]

No, it wouldn't.

lol. If you want to be wrong, you can.

[Loyalist]

lol. If you want to be wrong, you can.

Likewise. :thumb001:

[jerney]

Likewise. :thumb001:

I took the test, I might know just a tad more about it than you. :rolleyes:

[Brynhild]

Oh, wait a minute, I seem to be in the right place. I just thought for a moment I was back at Althing/Skadi. :ranger:

[Psychonaut]

No, it wouldn't.

The test she put up is autosomal and would be more likely to show non-patrilinear/matrilinear information.

[jerney]

Oh, wait a minute, I seem to be in the right place. I just thought for a moment I was back at Althing/Skadi. :ranger:

Well someone should know that if they make a claim they're expected to back it up. Not my fault he still can't.

[Brynhild]

If I can be serious for a moment, this thread was about Italians in general. Now it has digressed to Genetics, and warrants a split. Not trying to tell anybody what to do, of course, but time and again threads get hijacked and veer way off course from the original subject at hand.

[chap]

AFAIK, SSA ancestry would show as African in the chromosome view, which she reports to be 100% European.

[jerney]

If I can be serious for a moment, this thread was about Italians in general. Now it has digressed to Genetics, and warrants a split. Not trying to tell anybody what to do, of course, but time and again threads get hijacked and veer way off course from the original subject at hand.

Brynhild, here is an explanation from their website. It has to do with much more than just Y-dna and MtDNA, and is far more representative of your entire ancestry than just the Y-chromosome or MtDNA tests would be.


We currently provide four kinds of ancestry analysis. One, Maternal Ancestry, traces your maternal lineage back through time from you to your mother, her mother, and all the way to the mother of all humans. Paternal Ancestry does the same for your paternal* lineage, tracing from you back to the father of all fathers. A third, Ancestry Painting, tells you where in the world each stretch along each of your 22 autosomal pairs is likely to have come from. The last, Global Similarity, assesses your relatedness to 10 regions that include more than 50 populations worldwide, as measured by the similarity of your DNA to people from those groups. With time, the number of populations we use for comparison purposes will grow.

[Aemma]

If I can be serious for a moment, this thread was about Italians in general. Now it has digressed to Genetics, and warrants a split. Not trying to tell anybody what to do, of course, but time and again threads get hijacked and veer way off course from the original subject at hand.

Good suggestion, Bryn. I'll discuss it with Loki and Foxie.

In the meantime, might I remind people that we're adults and that the 'he said-she said' gets tiresome after a while? If you don't agree then you don't agree and move on. Just please don't drag it out needlessly especially if this is an old discussion from a previous forum that seems to have regained a spark here.

Thanks!...Aemma

[jerney]

AFAIK, SSA ancestry would show as African in the chromosome view, which she reports to be 100% European.

Not to mention any North African ancestry detected would screw with the European plot and you would get knocked out of the Northern European category into at least the Southern European plot.

[Brynhild]

Brynhild, here is an explanation from their website. It has to do with much more than just Y-dna and MtDNA, and is far more representative of your entire ancestry than just the Y-chromosome or MtDNA tests would be.

The test would be a lot more advanced than mine was, and that was a year ago. But then again, if it was so expensive to begin with, nobody would justify paying that much.

I'd like to see the price drop further, I'll certainly have it done when it does! :) Personally, I would happily see the day that the test isn't so discriminatory.

[Loyalist]

The test she put up is autosomal and would be more likely to show non-patrilinear/matrilinear information.

That's hypothetical at best, and these are the same tests the PC brigade uses to show how genetically indistinguishable an Englishman is from a Turk.

In any case, jerney/mischak/fatale_noir or whatever name she's using these days is an agitator, nothing more. She's already dragged up this thread to perpetuate the drama from Skadi, and there will be plenty more of this in the future. It never ceases to amaze me that, when one clown is shown the door, there's always another to take their place.

[Psychonaut]

That's hypothetical at best, and these are the same tests the PC brigade uses to show how genetically indistinguishable an Englishman is from a Turk.

What do you mean? The way these tests group people, in clusters, shows just the opposite. North Europeans cluster together, South Europeans cluster together, Eastern Europeans cluster together, etc. These kinds of tests, if anything, show that regional divides in Europe are genetically quantifiable. They sure don't show how we're identical with Turks.


In any case, jerney/mischak/fatale_noir or whatever name she's using these days is an agitator, nothing more. She's already dragged up this thread to perpetuate the drama from Skadi, and there will be plenty more of this in the future. It never ceases to amaze me that, when one clown is shown the door, there's always another to take their place.

Old Skadi issues needn't enter into this discussion. No one has yet mentioned it and I'd be delighted if it stayed that way.

[jerney]

That's hypothetical at best, and these are the same tests the PC brigade uses to show how genetically indistinguishable an Englishman is from a Turk.

..what are you talking about? Like Psychonaut said, this test does the exact opposite. It even groups different European populations from one another to show their distinct differences. You are obviously ill-informed on the topic.

[jerney]

Loyalist, just admit you can't refute genetic evidence and you know you look stupid trying to do so. You have done nothing to prove you know even the slightest of what you're talking about.

You obviously have issues accepting that I am genetically Northern European or that anyone with Italian ancestry is fully genetically European. I guess it doesn't suit your agenda, and that's fine, but the facts are the facts and you don't need to send me catty reps.