Samnium's Eurogenes results (FAKE)

[Leto]

The average of two references (South_Italian and French)

North_Atlantic 29.66
West_Med 21.14
East_Med 21.08
Baltic 11.7
West_Asian 9.99
Red_Sea 3.97
South_Asian 0.88

:swl

[gixajo]

The average of two references (South_Italian and French)

North_Atlantic 29.66
West_Med 21.14
East_Med 21.08
Baltic 11.7
West_Asian 9.99
Red_Sea 3.97
South_Asian 0.88

:swl

Where is typical South Italian SSA?

[Jana]

Distance to: Samnium

3.95898977 Emilia
4.19908323 Tuscany
4.53836975 Liguria
5.18858362 Romagna
5.52972875 Tuscan
6.02987562 Umbria
6.65089468 Veneto
7.01799117 Marche
7.08697397 Friuli-VG
7.22964729 Lazio
7.56161358 Piedmont
7.58373259 Lombardy
9.02366334 Greek_Central-Macedonia
9.43074758 FrenchCorsica
9.93756509 Trentino
10.12368510 Greek_Western-Thrace
10.16015414 Kosovo_Albanian
10.28528074 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
10.65752786 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
10.72698466 Swiss-Italian
11.06280254 Swiss_Italian
11.10258528 Turk_Alexandroupoli
11.19793284 Greek_Western-Macedonia
11.23089489 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
11.40384584 Albanian

Target: Samnium
Distance: 0.4553% / 0.45531662
21.2 Marche
16.2 Lombardy
11.0 Swiss_Italian
9.2 North-Dutch
6.4 French
6.0 French_Basque
4.6 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
4.4 Lebanese_Christian
4.0 Assyrian
3.2 Kurdish_Jewish
3.0 Southwest_English
1.6 Greek_Cypriot
1.6 Sardinian
1.4 Iranian_Jewish
1.4 Spanish_Aragon
1.0 Cyprian
1.0 Greek_Dodecanese
0.8 Kurd_Iran
0.8 Saudi
0.6 Southwest_French
0.4 Sardinia
0.2 Gujarati


Target: Samnium
Distance: 1.3825% / 1.38251932 | ADC: 0.25x
46.8 Umbria
26.2 Friuli-VG
13.0 Tuscan
5.4 Emilia
4.4 French
2.8 Scottish
1.2 Balochi
0.2 Tadjik

Target: Samnium
Distance: 2.4023% / 2.40232798 | ADC: 0.5x
39.6 Emilia
32.6 Umbria
26.8 Friuli-VG
1.0 Tadjik

[Leto]

Where is typical South Italian SSA?
The SI reference is 1% African (NE & SSA) and the remaining 0.5% is Asian, Siberian which I left out as noise. I can add that too.

[Leto]

Distance to: Samnium

3.95898977 Emilia
4.19908323 Tuscany
4.53836975 Liguria
5.18858362 Romagna
5.52972875 Tuscan
6.02987562 Umbria
6.65089468 Veneto
7.01799117 Marche
7.08697397 Friuli-VG
7.22964729 Lazio
7.56161358 Piedmont
7.58373259 Lombardy
9.02366334 Greek_Central-Macedonia
9.43074758 FrenchCorsica
9.93756509 Trentino
10.12368510 Greek_Western-Thrace
10.16015414 Kosovo_Albanian
10.28528074 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
10.65752786 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
10.72698466 Swiss-Italian
11.06280254 Swiss_Italian
11.10258528 Turk_Alexandroupoli
11.19793284 Greek_Western-Macedonia
11.23089489 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
11.40384584 Albanian

Target: Samnium
Distance: 0.4553% / 0.45531662
21.2 Marche
16.2 Lombardy
11.0 Swiss_Italian
9.2 North-Dutch
6.4 French
6.0 French_Basque
4.6 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
4.4 Lebanese_Christian
4.0 Assyrian
3.2 Kurdish_Jewish
3.0 Southwest_English
1.6 Greek_Cypriot
1.6 Sardinian
1.4 Iranian_Jewish
1.4 Spanish_Aragon
1.0 Cyprian
1.0 Greek_Dodecanese
0.8 Kurd_Iran
0.8 Saudi
0.6 Southwest_French
0.4 Sardinia
0.2 Gujarati


Target: Samnium
Distance: 1.3825% / 1.38251932 | ADC: 0.25x
46.8 Umbria
26.2 Friuli-VG
13.0 Tuscan
5.4 Emilia
4.4 French
2.8 Scottish
1.2 Balochi
0.2 Tadjik

Target: Samnium
Distance: 2.4023% / 2.40232798 | ADC: 0.5x
39.6 Emilia
32.6 Umbria
26.8 Friuli-VG
1.0 Tadjik
Nice fake Samnium's nMonte.
I don't give a rat's ass what he thinks, until he presents his actual results, I will think he is like that xD

[Leto]

FULL result (with the noise)

North_Atlantic 29.66
West_Med 21.14
East_Med 21.08
Baltic 11.7
West_Asian 9.99
Red_Sea 3.97
South_Asian 0.88
Amerindian 0.46
Northeast_African 0.37
Sub-Saharan 0.33
Oceanian 0.23
Siberian 0.22
East_Asian 0.12

Doesn't add up (100.15 percent)

[gixajo]

I use Eurogenes k13 original spreadsheet, only one reference for Italy (Abruzzo)and one for France (Indetermined).

North_Atlantic 32.40 Baltic 13.06 West_Med 19.91West_Asian10 East_Med 18.90 Red_Sea 3.86 South_Asian 0.63 East_Asian 0.20 Siberian 0.26 Amerindian 0.22 Oceanian 0.32 Northeast_African 0.08 Sub-Saharan 0.10
(99.95)

Target: Samnium_fake
Distance: 0.1590% / 0.15898619
14.8 Italian_Abruzzo
12.0 North_Dutch
10.2 Tuscan
7.8 French
6.2 Lebanese_Christian
5.8 Cyprian
5.8 North_Italian
5.8 Southwest_English
5.8 Southwest_French
4.2 French_Basque
3.4 Lebanese_Druze
3.4 Spanish_Aragon
2.6 Norwegian
2.6 West_Scottish
2.4 South_Dutch
2.0 Georgian_Jewish
1.6 Sardinian
1.6 Southeast_English
0.8 Georgian
0.6 Austrian
0.4 Serbian
0.2 Saudi

Target: Samnium_fake
Distance: 6.2978% / 6.29776926 | ADC: 1x
94.0 North_Italian
6.0 Romanian

Target: Samnium_fake
Distance: 3.2305% / 3.23054514 | ADC: 0.5x
52.2 North_Italian
22.8 Tuscan
17.4 West_German
4.8 Italian_Abruzzo
2.2 Tabassaran
0.6 Romanian

Target: Samnium_fake
Distance: 1.1118% / 1.11183620 | ADC: 0.25x
28.6 French
25.2 Italian_Abruzzo
22.4 Tuscan
13.2 North_Italian
8.8 West_German
1.8 Tabassaran

Distance to: Samnium_fake
6.88531771 North_Italian
9.26481516 Tuscan
12.47683453 Portuguese
12.97991525 Spanish_Extremadura
13.96921973 Spanish_Galicia
14.01140250 Spanish_Murcia
14.27326522 Spanish_Cataluna
14.45306196 Romanian
14.79017241 Spanish_Andalucia
14.83345880 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
14.91895439 Spanish_Valencia
14.93870142 Italian_Abruzzo
14.96705716 French
15.29662708 Greek_Thessaly
15.73867212 Bulgarian
16.16431564 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
16.16984230 Serbian
16.23905785 West_Sicilian
18.04158530 Spanish_Cantabria
18.88115463 West_German
19.39427751 Spanish_Aragon
19.73325366 Central_Greek
19.83675377 Southwest_French
20.12835065 South_Dutch
20.38791063 East_Sicilian

[Dick]

Target: Samnium_fake lol

[gixajo]

Nice fake Samnium's nMonte.
I don't give a rat's ass what he thinks, until he presents his actual results, I will think he is like that xD

I don´t do this with disrespect intention, it´s only a innacurate prediction. A game, he has enough humour to understand it as this.

[Leto]

@gixajo, you confused West_Med with West_Asian.

[Leto]

I don´t do this with disrespect intention, it´s only a innacurate prediction. A game, he has enough humour to understand it as this.
Well, no disrespect at all of course. Trolling can be inoffensive.

[gixajo]

Well, no disrespect at all of course. Trolling can be inoffensive.

Really?, I did it fast I will review all.

[Samnium]

Ahaha. :laugh:

My italian side is also from Apulia which is very close to Central Greek reference (Abruzzo also) not South_Italian.

The "French" reference represent well Central France tho.

[Leto]

Ahaha. :laugh:

My italian side is also from Apulia which is very close to Central Greek reference (Abruzzo also) not South_Italian.

The "French" reference represent well Central France tho.
Probably we should first mix Abruzzo and South-Italian and then mix the result with the French average.

[Leto]

Anyway, I think relative similarity to Emilia-Romagna sounds very plausible and realistic. Yes, there is variation in Southern Italy but still we can make a reasonable projection based on what we know.

[Samnium]

Probably we should first mix Abruzzo and South-Italian and then mix the result with the French average.

I think that my father will plot northern of French average, French average is really the "French" average, Southern and Central French are between 56/55% and 60% (N_Atlantic + Baltic combined), Northern French are above that (I've seen Alsatians at 65%).

Also on calculators you don't appear exactly as a midpoint so maybe the average isn't entirely true.

[gixajo]

@gixajo, you confused West_Med with West_Asian.

I copied the list of components you posted to save time, the original order is this: North_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast_African Sub-Saharan.

Numbers are ok I guess.

[Samnium]

Distance to: Samnium

3.95898977 Emilia
4.19908323 Tuscany
4.53836975 Liguria
5.18858362 Romagna
5.52972875 Tuscan
6.02987562 Umbria
6.65089468 Veneto
7.01799117 Marche
7.08697397 Friuli-VG
7.22964729 Lazio
7.56161358 Piedmont
7.58373259 Lombardy
9.02366334 Greek_Central-Macedonia
9.43074758 FrenchCorsica
9.93756509 Trentino
10.12368510 Greek_Western-Thrace
10.16015414 Kosovo_Albanian
10.28528074 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
10.65752786 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
10.72698466 Swiss-Italian
11.06280254 Swiss_Italian
11.10258528 Turk_Alexandroupoli
11.19793284 Greek_Western-Macedonia
11.23089489 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
11.40384584 Albanian

Target: Samnium
Distance: 0.4553% / 0.45531662
21.2 Marche
16.2 Lombardy
11.0 Swiss_Italian
9.2 North-Dutch
6.4 French
6.0 French_Basque
4.6 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
4.4 Lebanese_Christian
4.0 Assyrian
3.2 Kurdish_Jewish
3.0 Southwest_English
1.6 Greek_Cypriot
1.6 Sardinian
1.4 Iranian_Jewish
1.4 Spanish_Aragon
1.0 Cyprian
1.0 Greek_Dodecanese
0.8 Kurd_Iran
0.8 Saudi
0.6 Southwest_French
0.4 Sardinia
0.2 Gujarati


Target: Samnium
Distance: 1.3825% / 1.38251932 | ADC: 0.25x
46.8 Umbria
26.2 Friuli-VG
13.0 Tuscan
5.4 Emilia
4.4 French
2.8 Scottish
1.2 Balochi
0.2 Tadjik

Target: Samnium
Distance: 2.4023% / 2.40232798 | ADC: 0.5x
39.6 Emilia
32.6 Umbria
26.8 Friuli-VG
1.0 Tadjik

How do you make samples with only K13 eurogenes results ? I'm interested

[gixajo]

How do you make samples with only K13 eurogenes results ? I'm interested

Me too, maybe is some type of coordinates translator from k13 to g25.

Which results did you like the most?

[Leto]

I copied the list of components you posted to save time, the original order is this: North_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast_African Sub-Saharan.

Numbers are ok I guess.
Please mix these two

Italian_Abruzzo

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.45
2 North_Atlantic 22.21
3 West_Med 20.33
4 West_Asian 15.04
5 Baltic 8.65
6 Red_Sea 4.90
7 Oceanian 0.41
8 East_Asian 0.25
9 Siberian 0.24
10 South_Asian 0.18
11 Amerindian 0.15
12 Northeast_African 0.10
13 Sub-Saharan 0.08


South_Italian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.82
2 West_Med 22.77
3 North_Atlantic 16.72
4 West_Asian 15.02
5 Baltic 5.91
6 Red_Sea 5.12
7 South_Asian 0.67
8 Amerindian 0.53
9 Sub-Saharan 0.53
10 Northeast_African 0.44
11 Oceanian 0.23
12 Siberian 0.17
13 East_Asian 0.08

Supposed Samnium's mother

[Samnium]

Please mix these two

Italian_Abruzzo

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.45
2 North_Atlantic 22.21
3 West_Med 20.33
4 West_Asian 15.04
5 Baltic 8.65
6 Red_Sea 4.90
7 Oceanian 0.41
8 East_Asian 0.25
9 Siberian 0.24
10 South_Asian 0.18
11 Amerindian 0.15
12 Northeast_African 0.10
13 Sub-Saharan 0.08


South_Italian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.82
2 West_Med 22.77
3 North_Atlantic 16.72
4 West_Asian 15.02
5 Baltic 5.91
6 Red_Sea 5.12
7 South_Asian 0.67
8 Amerindian 0.53
9 Sub-Saharan 0.53
10 Northeast_African 0.44
11 Oceanian 0.23
12 Siberian 0.17
13 East_Asian 0.08

Supposed Samnium's mother

I don't know how my "calabrian side" is I think something like an average between Abruzzo and Central Greek will be more accurate.

For my father, you can pick up a french result like that, typical northern french result :

K15:
North_Sea 23.99%
Atlantic 31.16%
Baltic 11.05%
Eastern_Euro 8.28%
West_Med 14.53%
West_Asian 3.06%
East_Med 5.22%
Red_Sea 1.26%
South_Asian 1.18%
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.26%
Sub-Saharan -


K13
North_Atlantic 41.38%
Baltic 22.95%
West_Med 19.27%
West_Asian 3.96%
East_Med 9.22%
Red_Sea 0.85%
South_Asian 1.67%
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.21%
Northeast_African 0.50%
Sub-Saharan -

A result like that sounds accurate. 12% East Med (W.Asian + East Med) which is neither too southern neither too northern.

By the way do you have the kits of Eurogenes references ?

[Leto]

By the way do you have the kits of Eurogenes references ?
No, I don't and they probably won't work because they were used as the references.

[Token]

Just test already, MyHeritage is very cheap.

[Rocinante]

Samnium will have the results of an average piedmontese.

[Leto]

Samnium will have the results of an average piedmontese.
He may come up as a little more Southern person. Emilia, around that area.

[Samnium]

He may come up as a little more Southern person. Emilia, around that area.

It can be very variable, the variation being more on my italian side.

I don't think that my Italian side is so southern shifted, definitely not.

[gixajo]

Please mix these two



Supposed Samnium's mother

Sorry I see late your post.

1 East_Med 29.63
2 West_Med 22.49
3 North_Atlantic 18.52
4 West_Asian 15.03
5 Baltic 7.28
6 Red_Sea 5.01
7 South_Asian 0.59
8 Amerindian 0.38
9 Sub-Saharan 0.38
10 Northeast_African 0.31
11 Oceanian 0.19
12 Siberian 0.14
13 East_Asian 0.08

(100.03)

I did also fast, I hope i´s ok.

[Lucas]

The average of two references (South_Italian and French)

North_Atlantic 29.66
West_Med 21.14
East_Med 21.08
Baltic 11.7
West_Asian 9.99
Red_Sea 3.97
South_Asian 0.88

:swl

You could just post Sikeliot result:)

[Samnium]

Sorry I see late your post.

1 East_Med 29.63
2 West_Med 22.49
3 North_Atlantic 18.52
4 West_Asian 15.03
5 Baltic 7.28
6 Red_Sea 5.01
7 South_Asian 0.59
8 Amerindian 0.38
9 Sub-Saharan 0.38
10 Northeast_African 0.31
11 Oceanian 0.19
12 Siberian 0.14
13 East_Asian 0.08

(100.03)

I did also fast, I hope i´s ok.

Can you do half Central Greek half Abruzzo ? I think I can take that it would be accurate, my mother is 25% apulian, apulians are more Greek shifted so... Abruzzo is west of Central Greek reference.

Lot of Apulians score around/close that reference.

[Leto]

Sorry I see late your post.

1 East_Med 29.63
2 West_Med 22.49
3 North_Atlantic 18.52
4 West_Asian 15.03
5 Baltic 7.28
6 Red_Sea 5.01
7 South_Asian 0.59
8 Amerindian 0.38
9 Sub-Saharan 0.38
10 Northeast_African 0.31
11 Oceanian 0.19
12 Siberian 0.14
13 East_Asian 0.08

(100.03)

I did also fast, I hope i´s ok.
It's fine, thank you.

French average

1 North_Atlantic 42.60
2 West_Med 19.50
3 Baltic 17.48
4 East_Med 10.33
5 West_Asian 4.96
6 Red_Sea 2.82
7 South_Asian 1.08
8 Amerindian 0.38
9 Siberian 0.27
10 Oceanian 0.23
11 East_Asian 0.15
12 Sub-Saharan 0.12
13 Northeast_African 0.07

[Leto]

You could just post Sikeliot result:)
Samnium is not that homosexual's sock account. Also, Sik is 1/4 Polish supposedly and 1/4 Kabu Verdi Portuguese.

[Lucas]

Samnium is not that homosexual's sock account. Also, Sik is 1/4 Polish supposedly and 1/4 Kabu Verdi Portuguese.

I have nothing against him.

[gixajo]

Wrong, I remade it, sorry.

[gixajo]

It's fine, thank you.

French average

1 North_Atlantic 42.60
2 West_Med 19.50
3 Baltic 17.48
4 East_Med 10.33
5 West_Asian 4.96
6 Red_Sea 2.82
7 South_Asian 1.08
8 Amerindian 0.38
9 Siberian 0.27
10 Oceanian 0.23
11 East_Asian 0.15
12 Sub-Saharan 0.12
13 Northeast_African 0.07

No, its wrong, please give me results in order... my fault, I did it bad.

[gixajo]

No, its wrong, please give me results in order... my fault, I did it bad.

No it´s ok if you ordered well, sorry. my Samnium result is what is wrong. Sorry.

[gixajo]

If I mix Samnium father and Samnium mother results(50/50), we have Samnium k13:



I make it again, :picard1:

[Samnium]

Sorry I see late your post.

1 East_Med 29.63
2 West_Med 22.49
3 North_Atlantic 18.52
4 West_Asian 15.03
5 Baltic 7.28
6 Red_Sea 5.01
7 South_Asian 0.59
8 Amerindian 0.38
9 Sub-Saharan 0.38
10 Northeast_African 0.31
11 Oceanian 0.19
12 Siberian 0.14
13 East_Asian 0.08

(100.03)

I did also fast, I hope i´s ok.

Not correct, North Atlantic component is at 19.46, West Med is at 21.55.

I made an excel sheet.

[Samnium]

I will test these combinations : the french result that I posted + Abruzzo, + Central Greek + Abruzzo (mix of both) and + Abruzzo + South_Italian (mix of both).

[Leto]

Okay, folks, you can continue without me xD

[Samnium]

Okay, folks, you can continue without me xD

Overall I think it's not difficult to say that I will end up like a Northern Italian. Pretty easy actually. Half "Southern" Italian (a "classic" Southern Italian plotting around S-Italian reference) half Northern Italian plot in Central Italy, half Southern Italian half French plot in N.Italy. That's quite logical.

Now I think that Emilia is not accurate taking in account that my french ancestry is in majority from an area that's Northern France (and I'm a bit aostan, but Aostans are very northern shifted and many of them end up in Northern France genetically), I can't predict how my italian side would be, but surely not like S-Italian reference, Apulians have recent Greek admixture and they plot around Central_Greek and I've seen even Apulians plotting in Central Italy (quite atypical).

Also I don't think that you appear exactly as a midpoint, so it's difficult to say (but I think taking averages is the method with less uncertainty).

[gixajo]

Weel, if I put the correct order this time and add correctly, Italian average North/South(hypotetical mother of Samnium) and random North French (Father of Samnium), hypotetial Samnium k13 may be:

North_Atlantic 29.95 Baltic15.11 West_Med20.88 West_Asian 9.49East_Med 19.42Red_Sea 2.93 South_Asian 1.13 East_Asian 0.04 Siberian 0.07Amerindian 0.19 Oceanian 0.20Northeast_African 0.40 Sub-Saharan.0.19

(100)

[Samnium]

Weel, if I put the correct order this time and add correctly, Italian average North/South(hypotetical mother of Samnium) and random North French (Father of Samnium), hypotetial Samnium k13 may be:

North_Atlantic 29.95 Baltic15.11 West_Med20.88 West_Asian 9.49East_Med 19.42Red_Sea 2.93 South_Asian 1.13 East_Asian 0.04 Siberian 0.07Amerindian 0.19 Oceanian 0.20Northeast_African 0.40 Sub-Saharan.0.19

(100)

Something like that, by mixing Abruzzo + the random sample I obtain :

North Atlantic 31,795
Baltic 15,785
West Med 19,8
East Med 18,335
West Asian 9,5
Red Sea 2,875
South Asian 0,925
Siberian 0,12
Amerindian 0,075
East Asian 0,125
Oceanian 0,31
Northeast African 0,3
Sub-Saharan 0,04

[gixajo]

I don´t know if i did something wrong, those are results for original k13 spreadsheet:

Target: Hypothetical_Samnium
Distance: 0.3015% / 0.30146526
13.8 North_Italian
13.4 Austrian
11.6 South_Italian
10.8 Danish
7.2 Greek_Thessaly
7.2 Spanish_Valencia
6.2 Tuscan
5.6 Sardinian
5.6 Southeast_English
5.4 Lebanese_Druze
3.0 Bulgarian
2.8 Armenian
2.2 East_Sicilian
1.4 East_German
1.0 North_German
1.0 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.6 Cyprian
0.6 French_Basque
0.4 Iranian_Jewish
0.2 Brahmin_UP

Target: Hypothetical_Samnium
Distance: 3.5860% / 3.58596468 | ADC: 1x
78.6 North_Italian
21.4 Romanian

Target: Hypothetical_Samnium
Distance: 2.7045% / 2.70446481 | ADC: 0.5x
62.8 North_Italian
30.4 Romanian
6.8 Tuscan

Target: Hypothetical_Samnium
Distance: 1.0361% / 1.03610148 | ADC: 0.25x
34.6 North_Italian
30.8 Tuscan
21.2 Romanian
11.4 West_German
1.2 Tabassaran
0.8 Afghan_Pashtun

Distance to: Hypothetical_Samnium
6.65351787 North_Italian
8.49679351 Tuscan
11.85183108 Romanian
12.70791486 Greek_Thessaly
12.85084044 Bulgarian
13.80436525 Portuguese
14.09659179 Serbian
14.22073486 Italian_Abruzzo
14.44725233 Spanish_Extremadura
15.09083828 Spanish_Galicia
15.19513409 West_Sicilian
15.65071564 Spanish_Murcia
15.72122133 Spanish_Cataluna
16.15468044 Spanish_Andalucia
16.15622790 Spanish_Valencia
16.31837002 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
16.45935296 French
17.65839744 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
18.21445580 Central_Greek
18.98388791 East_Sicilian
19.23575577 Spanish_Cantabria
19.87622952 West_German
20.74292892 Southwest_French
21.00115473 Spanish_Aragon
21.00533504 Hungarian

k13 coordinates: Hypothetical_Samnium,29.95,15.11,20.88,9.49,19.42, 2.93,1.13,0.04,0.07,0.19,0.20,0.40,0.19

[gixajo]

In my case, more accurate is 1x despite having in it more distance than others:

Target: gixajo
Distance: 1.6736% / 1.67362309
68.0 French_Basque
13.2 Lithuanian
9.2 Saudi
7.0 Sardinian
1.6 Somali
0.4 Kalash
0.4 Papuan
0.2 Punjabi_Jat

Target: gixajo
Distance: 4.4299% / 4.42993053 | ADC: 1x
92.2 Spanish_Cantabria
7.8 Southwest_French

Target: gixajo
Distance: 4.2241% / 4.22413283 | ADC: 0.5x
68.2 Spanish_Cantabria
31.2 Southwest_French
0.6 Somali

Target: gixajo
Distance: 3.3480% / 3.34797355 | ADC: 0.25x
58.6 Southwest_French
25.0 Spanish_Galicia
13.6 French_Basque
2.0 Somali
0.6 Balochi
0.2 Papuan

Distance to: gixajo
4.47476256 Spanish_Cantabria
4.94969696 Southwest_French
6.53212064 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
6.91217766 Spanish_Galicia
7.33265982 Spanish_Aragon
7.38237089 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
8.40199976 Spanish_Cataluna
8.42181097 Spanish_Extremadura
8.92045402 Portuguese
8.98541596 Spanish_Andalucia
9.14169022 Spanish_Valencia
9.27604981 Spanish_Murcia
13.17520778 French
15.58537776 French_Basque
17.12864560 North_Italian
18.97834029 South_Dutch
19.94465091 West_German
22.30096859 Southwest_English
22.78411508 Southeast_English
24.27163159 Tuscan
25.02480969 Orcadian
25.05265455 Austrian
25.67979751 West_Scottish
25.69507346 Irish
26.66457200 East_German

[gixajo]

edit

[gixajo]

I don´t know what I say...I am going to smoke a cigarrete...

[SharpFork]

Edit:NVM

[SharpFork]

Overall I think it's not difficult to say that I will end up like a Northern Italian. Pretty easy actually. Half "Southern" Italian (a "classic" Southern Italian plotting around S-Italian reference) half Northern Italian plot in Central Italy, half Southern Italian half French plot in N.Italy. That's quite logical.

Now I think that Emilia is not accurate taking in account that my french ancestry is in majority from an area that's Northern France (and I'm a bit aostan, but Aostans are very northern shifted and many of them end up in Northern France genetically), I can't predict how my italian side would be, but surely not like S-Italian reference, Apulians have recent Greek admixture and they plot around Central_Greek and I've seen even Apulians plotting in Central Italy (quite atypical).

Also I don't think that you appear exactly as a midpoint, so it's difficult to say (but I think taking averages is the method with less uncertainty).
Using the most northern Apulian on G25 and French_North you would be about 49% ENF, 10.5% Near Eastern, 32.5% Steppe and 8% extra WHG

On that front you are pretty similar to Albanians, Bulgarians, Ligurians, Piedmontese(I'm not sure why Piedmontese and Ligurian samples have so much Near Eastern ancestry when the rest of Northern Italy doesn't).

[Samnium]

Using the most northern Apulian on G25 and French_North you would be about 49% ENF, 10.5% Near Eastern, 32.5% Steppe and 8% extra WHG

On that front you are pretty similar to Albanians, Bulgarians, Ligurians, Piedmontese(I'm not sure why Piedmontese and Ligurian samples have so much Near Eastern ancestry when the rest of Northern Italy doesn't).

I don't know if French_North is accurate for my italian side.

I don't think that I would come out as Ligurian tho. Not at all.

50% Abruzzo + 50% French random sample (that's at 64 pct N.Atlantic + Baltic combined)


Distance to: Hypothetical_Samnium
3.83388184 Friuli-VG
4.76981656 Veneto
6.08581548 Piedmont
6.58960166 Trentino
6.87425996 Liguria
7.15354807 Emilia
7.61452231 Swiss-Italian
8.03660687 Lombardy
8.21509282 Swiss_Italian
8.33605722 Tuscany
9.38467101 AostaValley
10.36854136 Romagna
10.66981021 Tuscan
10.88091219 Swiss_French
11.36314877 Umbria
11.60021767 Bulgarian_Southwest
11.66814681 Greek_Central-Macedonia
11.82799434 Portuguese
12.35632429 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
12.35935476 Marche

Target: Hypothetical_Samnium
Distance: 1.7046% / 1.70456134 | ADC: 0.25x
57.6 Friuli-VG
26.2 AostaValley
9.6 Umbria
4.6 Kurd_Iran
2.0 French


25% Abruzzo + 25% Central Greek + 50% French sample



Distance to: Hypothetical_Samnium
3.82828160 Friuli-VG
4.70241640 Veneto
6.09775860 Piedmont
6.42979315 Trentino
7.24227036 Liguria
7.37014790 Emilia
7.94810040 Swiss-Italian
8.40106541 Tuscany
8.41718599 Lombardy
8.91827338 Swiss_Italian
9.43133607 AostaValley
10.39625413 Swiss_French
10.56700620 Romagna
11.04671263 Tuscan
11.19265205 Greek_Central-Macedonia
11.22670744 Bulgarian_Southwest
11.57368184 North_Macedonian
11.57929532 Bulgarian_Central
11.61675084 Umbria
11.76720721 Kosovo_Albanian

Target: Hypothetical_Samnium
Distance: 1.2014% / 1.20143096 | ADC: 0.25x
71.0 Friuli-VG
14.8 AostaValley
4.4 Emilia
3.8 Spanish_Extremadura
2.8 Ossetian
1.4 Makrani
1.0 Brahui
0.8 Umbria



50% Central Greek + 50% French sample

Distance to: Hypothetical_Samnium
4.81796897 Friuli-VG
5.48725113 Veneto
6.77652750 Piedmont
6.91943097 Trentino
8.13179101 Emilia
8.14235378 Liguria
8.77085657 Swiss-Italian
8.96353306 Tuscany
9.26057909 Lombardy
9.91725895 AostaValley
10.00799805 Swiss_Italian
10.30919614 Swiss_French
10.96809578 Bulgarian_Central
10.98067962 Vlach_North-Macedonia
11.07170747 North_Macedonian
11.09532447 Greek_Central-Macedonia
11.15897509 Romagna
11.23412324 Bulgarian_Southwest
11.36434343 Kosovo_Albanian
11.54990584 Bulgarian_Plovdiv

Target: Hypothetical_Samnium
Distance: 1.5930% / 1.59301004 | ADC: 0.25x
39.4 Friuli-VG
27.2 Piedmont
13.8 Turk_Sliven-Alevi
13.6 AostaValley
2.8 Spanish_Extremadura
2.2 Balochi
0.4 Ossetian
0.2 Veneto
0.2 Papuan
0.2 Somali



25% Central Greek + 25% South-Italian + 50% French sample

Distance to: Hypothetical_Samnium
4.25224647 Friuli-VG
4.47356681 Veneto
5.76803259 Emilia
5.86566279 Liguria
5.93907400 Piedmont
6.62440186 Tuscany
7.06186944 Trentino
7.63985602 Lombardy
8.58145675 Swiss-Italian
8.68387010 Romagna
9.22410429 Tuscan
9.43163825 Swiss_Italian
9.76243822 Umbria
9.84234220 Greek_Central-Macedonia
10.44104714 Kosovo_Albanian
10.76878823 Marche
10.80198130 Vlach_North-Macedonia
10.83492501 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
10.85150681 Lazio
10.85183769 North_Macedonian

Target: Hypothetical_Samnium
Distance: 1.1085% / 1.10853147 | ADC: 0.25x
57.4 Friuli-VG
26.4 Emilia
6.2 Veneto
3.8 AostaValley
2.8 Brahui
1.4 Spanish_Extremadura
1.2 Ossetian
0.6 Tadjik
0.2 Maasai



I didn't made heavy hypotheses, all of these references and mix are very "plausible" considering my ancestry.

It's only hypothesis (I don't know if I would be more "Eastern" or Western shifted), but as you see I come near Piedmontese, Venetians and Friulans.

[Rocinante]

Another thing is that you will end 52% FARMER + 38% YAMNAYA + 6% WHG, the rest could be iberomarusian or red devils cave.

[Samnium]

Another thing is that you will end 52% FARMER + 38% YAMNAYA + 6% WHG, the rest could be iberomarusian or red devils cave.

I made several "simulations", you can see :)

[SharpFork]

I don't know if French_North is accurate for my italian side.

I don't think that I would come out as Ligurian tho. Not at all.

50% Abruzzo + 50% French random sample (that's at 64 pct N.Atlantic + Baltic combined)

[spoiler]
Distance to: Hypothetical_Samnium
3.83388184 Friuli-VG
4.76981656 Veneto
6.08581548 Piedmont
6.58960166 Trentino
6.87425996 Liguria


It's only hypothesis (I don't know if I would be more "Eastern" or Western shifted), but as you see I come near Piedmontese, Venetians and Friulans.
Where is your French side from exactly? In any case your 10-15% Near Eastern ancestry only fits in Piedmont, Liguria or Tuscany, not Veneto, Friuli or Trentino. Maybe Emilia but I never seen a G25 model of it using ancient populations.

Maybe on eurogenes you end up closer to those NE Italians but in terms of ancient components you have something that is out place for that part of Italy.

[Samnium]

Where is your French side from exactly? In any case your 10-15% Near Eastern ancestry only fits in Piedmont, Liguria or Tuscany, not Veneto, Friuli or Trentino. Maybe Emilia but I never seen a G25 model of it using ancient populations.

Maybe on eurogenes you end up closer to those NE Italians but in terms of ancient components you have something that is out place for that part of Italy.

French side is from Haute-Savoie predominantly, a bit of Aosta (1/8) and distant Swiss French (I don't know how much). So Northern French genetically. You used maybe a Central/Southern French reference.

I used only "possible" scenarios that aren't wild guesses at all. Now the french part can be a bit different but in terms of "Northern component", the range is accurate. So I don't think that I will be "Tuscan shifted" or Ligurian shifted, definitely.

[SharpFork]

French side is from Haute-Savoie predominantly, a bit of Aosta (1/8) and distant Swiss French (I don't know how much). So Northern French genetically. You used maybe a Central/Southern French reference.

I used only "possible" scenarios that aren't wild guesses at all. Now the french part can be a bit different but in terms of "Northern component", the range is accurate. So I don't think that I will be "Tuscan shifted" or Ligurian shifted, definitely.
Like I said the Near Eastern DNA isn't magically going to disappear, NE Italians have less than 5% of it. At this point if you prefer k13 abstract components over actual ancestral populations, you might as well use some other metric than components to look at closeness(fst distance?).

French_North is definitely a northern selection of samples, it's more northern than Alsace and only barely different from French_Paris.

[Samnium]

Like I said the Near Eastern DNA isn't magically going to disappear, NE Italians have less than 5% of it. At this point if you prefer k13 abstract components over actual ancestral populations, you might as well use some other metric than components to look at closeness(fst distance?).

French_North is definitely a northern selection of samples, it's more northern than Alsace and only barely different from French_Paris.

You don't get an "exact" 50/50 of the ancestries of your parent in modeling and calculors, also it's possible to have more Near Eastern DNA but at the same time more Northern components as well.

A northern French + Central Greek reference doesn't make you end up in Liguria/Tuscany. Not at all. Using only Eurogenes make that guess irrealistic.

Emilia is at 41% N.Atlantic + Baltic combined, given that Leto has taken a Central French average and a very Southern Italian average (South-Italian).

Also many NE Italians can be modeled as 75% French + 25% W.Asian.

Now I wouldn't use G25 Apulian samples, they are quite weird and not really representative. We don't even know from where they are. They could be from everywhere in Apulia. Even Taranto or very northern areas close to Abruzzo. That's why I used references, if I begin to use real samples from Southern Italy it can mean everything and nothing.

[Vid Flumina]

4/4 grandparents from Annecy (Haute Savoie):

Distance to: French:Annecy
8.58855052 Italy_Trentino
9.49325550 Italy_Aostavalley
9.75626978 French
10.15196040 France-South
10.75939589 Italy_Piedmont
10.80314306 Italy_Veneto
10.82755743 Austria-Tyrol
11.41417978 German_Bavarian
11.49806505 Spanish_Galicia
11.69361364 Italy_Friuli
12.10000413 Spanish_Cataluna
12.21911617 Italy_Lombardy
12.27182546 Portuguese
12.40666756 West_German
12.56725507 South_Dutch
13.18250356 Belgium
13.63896624 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
14.12036473 Spanish_Murcia
14.25924262 Austria-Burgenland
14.40413135 Spanish_Extremadura
14.87406804 Italy_Liguria
16.20016589 Szekely
16.36506034 Serbian
16.50915201 Spanish_Valencia
16.58200832 Italy_Emiliaromagna

Target: French:Annecy
Distance: 5.8588% / 5.85877498 | ADC: 0.25x
57.4 Italy_Trentino
21.8 France-South
18.8 West_Norwegian
2.0 Yemenite_Jewish


From Lyon (Rhône department), this one seems to have less Italian influence:

Distance to: French:Lyon
5.79624879 French
7.00464132 Italy_Aostavalley
7.89427641 France-South
8.33406263 German_Bavarian
8.67676207 South_Dutch
9.06284172 Austria-Tyrol
9.53753637 Spanish_Cataluna
10.15554528 Belgium
10.70161670 Spanish_Galicia
10.85715893 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
10.93993144 Italy_Piedmont
11.25118660 Portuguese
11.84057431 Spanish_Cantabria
12.25226918 Spanish_Extremadura
12.37286547 Southwest_English
12.65518076 Spanish_Murcia
12.86287293 Italy_Trentino
12.92921111 Southwest_French
13.19119024 West_German
13.39495427 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
13.80398493 Spanish_Valencia
13.96695386 Southeast_English
14.00549178 Italy_Veneto
14.37322859 England
14.62908405 Spanish_Aragon

Target: French:Lyon
Distance: 2.4089% / 2.40890350 | ADC: 0.25x
65.2 French
16.8 French_Basque
11.2 Southwest_English
5.4 North_Ossetian
1.4 Southwest_French


K15 updated has average for both Apulia and Calabria, you can try different combinations:

French:Annecy,27.48,23.45,11.74,5.70,16.05,0.32,13 .69,0.19,1.28,0,0,0,0.10,0,0
French:Lyon,25.71,28.81,7.95,6.07,16.84,7.62,4.00, 1.88,0.30,0,0.69,0,0,0,0.12

[Samnium]

4/4 grandparents from Annecy (Haute Savoie):

Distance to: French:Annecy
8.58855052 Italy_Trentino
9.49325550 Italy_Aostavalley
9.75626978 French
10.15196040 France-South
10.75939589 Italy_Piedmont
10.80314306 Italy_Veneto
10.82755743 Austria-Tyrol
11.41417978 German_Bavarian
11.49806505 Spanish_Galicia
11.69361364 Italy_Friuli
12.10000413 Spanish_Cataluna
12.21911617 Italy_Lombardy
12.27182546 Portuguese
12.40666756 West_German
12.56725507 South_Dutch
13.18250356 Belgium
13.63896624 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
14.12036473 Spanish_Murcia
14.25924262 Austria-Burgenland
14.40413135 Spanish_Extremadura
14.87406804 Italy_Liguria
16.20016589 Szekely
16.36506034 Serbian
16.50915201 Spanish_Valencia
16.58200832 Italy_Emiliaromagna

Target: French:Annecy
Distance: 5.8588% / 5.85877498 | ADC: 0.25x
57.4 Italy_Trentino
21.8 France-South
18.8 West_Norwegian
2.0 Yemenite_Jewish


From Lyon (Rhône department), this one seems to have less Italian influence:

Distance to: French:Lyon
5.79624879 French
7.00464132 Italy_Aostavalley
7.89427641 France-South
8.33406263 German_Bavarian
8.67676207 South_Dutch
9.06284172 Austria-Tyrol
9.53753637 Spanish_Cataluna
10.15554528 Belgium
10.70161670 Spanish_Galicia
10.85715893 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
10.93993144 Italy_Piedmont
11.25118660 Portuguese
11.84057431 Spanish_Cantabria
12.25226918 Spanish_Extremadura
12.37286547 Southwest_English
12.65518076 Spanish_Murcia
12.86287293 Italy_Trentino
12.92921111 Southwest_French
13.19119024 West_German
13.39495427 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
13.80398493 Spanish_Valencia
13.96695386 Southeast_English
14.00549178 Italy_Veneto
14.37322859 England
14.62908405 Spanish_Aragon

Target: French:Lyon
Distance: 2.4089% / 2.40890350 | ADC: 0.25x
65.2 French
16.8 French_Basque
11.2 Southwest_English
5.4 North_Ossetian
1.4 Southwest_French


K15 updated has average for both Apulia and Calabria, you can try different combinations:

French:Annecy,27.48,23.45,11.74,5.70,16.05,0.32,13 .69,0.19,1.28,0,0,0,0.10,0,0
French:Lyon,25.71,28.81,7.95,6.07,16.84,7.62,4.00, 1.88,0.30,0,0.69,0,0,0,0.12

The first result is very strange if I had to say. It doesn't look like any result from that area. I think that he has something like italian ancestors back in time (great-grandparents probably).

Haute-Savoie is located in the Northern French cluster, and Lyon is more like Central France, genetically, according to the wide study of Giemza et all.

Red Haute-Savoie, Green Rhône (where Lyon is located)
https://i.imgur.com/fgkXV3A.png

[SharpFork]

You don't get an "exact" 50/50 of the ancestries of your parent in modeling and calculors, also it's possible to have more Near Eastern DNA but at the same time more Northern components as well.
I have already used a Northern sample and my Apulian cherrypicked sample is even more northern than the Abruzzo average anyway.


A northern French + Central Greek reference doesn't make you end up in Liguria/Tuscany. Not at all. Using only Eurogenes make that guess irrealistic.
You are using Eurogenes not me


Also many NE Italians can be modeled as 75% French + 25% W.Asian.
According to what?


Now I wouldn't use G25 Apulian samples, they are quite weird and not really representative.
You are really cherrypicking, there is absolutely nothing weird about the Apulian sample specifically, virtually no region south of Lazio has less near eastern than the sample I cherrypicked for the sake of the argument.


We don't even know from where they are. They could be from everywhere in Apulia. Even Taranto or very northern areas close to Abruzzo. That's why I used references, if I begin to use real samples from Southern Italy it can mean everything and nothing.
Now you are just reaching, there is not some magical place in Southern Italy where somehow there is no Near Eastern admixture or that little of it, I already literally cherrypicked the one that had 10% less Near Eastern than the average. You really seem to have already come to a conclusion and walking your way, going against a far more reasonable model.

[Samnium]

I have already used a Northern sample and my Apulian cherrypicked sample is even more northern than the Abruzzo average anyway.

Well my ancestry is from an area that's Northern France genetically so not really cherrypicked. And Abruzzo can be more southern than Apulia, it's not surprising, I've seen many apulians samples scoring more "northern" than the Abruzzo average. Abruzzo isn't the tail end of the Southern Italian cluster.


You are using Eurogenes not me

Well Eurogenes can be kind of outdated, and there are blurry component, but what you need to understand is that what Tuscans and Emilians are East Med shifted compared to other Northern Italians. Modeling someone that's half "apulian" (we can take that) and half Northern French would make him plotting along Lombardy, Piemonte, Veneto rather than Emilia. "Northern" ratios don't match at all.


According to what?

That's a common oracle in Eurogenes for Northern Italians, because yes they do have some East Med ancestry inherited mainly from Roman Imperial era, also you don't seem to understand that there are heavy differences in Northern Italy depending if it's the plain or an alpine area... You can't use Alpine areas as a benchmark for all Northern Italy, because they are very atypical genetically.


Now you are just reaching, there is not some magical place in Southern Italy where somehow there is no Near Eastern admixture or that little of it, I already literally cherrypicked the one that had 10% less Near Eastern than the average. You really seem to have already come to a conclusion and walking your way, going against a far more reasonable model.

You're saying idiocies anyway, half Portuguese Italian half Central Greek (Apulian) model plot in Tuscany/Northern Tuscany, half French half Central Greece would plot in Emilia that's very Tuscan shifted ? That's not logical at all.

And I've never said there isn't Near Eastern admixture in any Southern Italian place, wtf. I've literally never said that and I'm always repeating on threads that Southern Italians do have some "Non-Euro" admixture.

[Vid Flumina]

The first result is very strange if I had to say. It doesn't look like any result from that area. I think that he has something like italian ancestors back in time (great-grandparents probably).

Haute-Savoie is located in the Northern French cluster, and Lyon is more like Central France, genetically, according to the wide study of Giemza.


It's one of the two Annecy kits I sent you few months ago, other one was very similar. I personally checked their genealogy, extremely local (Choisy/Sillingy area) at least back to their great great grandparents.

About Haute Savoie cluster, I found this PCA from a French guy over at Anthrogenica thats been collecting samples from other French members:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/146nQKLh_597If-0yiKSxtGeJk2ht281x/view

Bourgogne RHA (in chartreuse) + Swiss French + Martine (Jura department) should give you a rough idea


Also interesting position in Lukasz K36 report:

https://i.imgur.com/1i9tqYe.png

[SharpFork]

Well my ancestry is from an area that's Northern France genetically so not really cherrypicked. And Abruzzo can be more southern than Apulia, it's not surprising, I've seen many apulians samples scoring more "northern" than the Abruzzo average. Abruzzo isn't the tail end of the Southern Italian cluster.

My point is I already did everything you said we should do, there is no reason to somehow think my Apulian or French sample is not "northern" enough, which is what you seem to have been impliying.



Well Eurogenes can be kind of outdated, and there are blurry component, but what you need to understand is that what Tuscans and Emilians are East Med shifted compared to other Northern Italians. Modeling someone that's half "apulian" (we can take that) and half Northern French would make him plotting along Lombardy, Piemonte, Veneto rather than Emilia. "Northern" ratios don't match at all.
What's the point in dealing with fake components? I don't know what "east med" actually is while I can point at the Near Eastern DNA through actual ancient samples that simply didn't exist in Latium, Tuscany in the iron age and only existed up to 10% in Bronze Age Sicily, on the other hand all Southern Italians today have more of it and I choose the Apulian sample with least Near Eastern DNA, so again why are so skeptic?


That's a common oracle in Eurogenes for Northern Italians, because yes they do have some East Med ancestry inherited mainly from Roman Imperial era, also you don't seem to understand that there are heavy differences in Northern Italy depending if it's the plain or an alpine area... You can't use Alpine areas as a benchmark for all Northern Italy, because they are very atypical genetically.
Look we can dispute samples and their provenance all day, but their general layout and pattern is clear and Piedmont and Liguria have that kind of Near Eastern DNA, Lombardy, Trentino, Veneto, Aosta, "Northeast", Bergamo(totally on top of the alps!) don't have it to same extent(less than 3%).




You're saying idiocies anyway, half Portuguese Italian half Central Greek (Apulian) model plot in Tuscany/Northern Tuscany, half French half Central Greece would plot in Emilia that's very Tuscan shifted ? That's not logical at all.
As they should given we are in the same ball park of Near Eastern DNA. French DNA doesn't eliminate the Near Eastern DNA.

The value I had before:

49% ENF, 10.5% Near Eastern, 32.5% Steppe and 8% extra WHG

Are directly comparable to Ligurian(although the Ligurian sample is just one and has weird Berber-like admixture, so whatever):

49.5% ENF, 13% Near Eastern+Berber, 29% Steppe and 8.5% WHG

And Piedmont:

55% ENF, 8.5% Near Eastern, 32% Steppe and 4.5% WHG

Tuscany is not that far:

54% ENF, 13% Near Eastern, 29% Steppe and 3% WHG

While on the other hand, Veneto looks like this:

57% ENF, 2.5% Near Eastern, 33% Steppe and 7.5% WHG

And Trentino like this:

57% ENF, 36% Steppe and 7% WHG

Are all those sample from Italy invalid? Should we have the family history of all the peolpe there back to the late antique period? Should we arbitrarily exclude some samples? Honestly we are running in circles just because you are really stubborn about technicalities and non-issues.

[Vid Flumina]

I live near the two samples but my Haute-Savoie ancestry isn't from there (it's another area). It's not in line with Giemza that sampled dozens of local people here and also from results that were partly from Haute-Savoie and Champagne (Northern France) and that end up being more "Northern" than full Champagne results. But it's still interesting to see that there are some Italian shifted people in middle of that.

Interesting, yeah I think that Haute-Savoie people plot near Swiss French, it's very logical to me. It's two very nearby areas. Like I said I've indeed some French Swiss maybe 1/4, I'm not sure.


You have to ask Lukasz what his FR_Savoie average consists of, because if it also includes Haute Savoie that's your closest approximation

[Samnium]

My point is I already did everything you said we should do, there is no reason to somehow think my Apulian or French sample is not "northern" enough, which is what you seem to have been impliying.

No it's not what I'm saying, I'm only saying that's not logical the region where I would "plot" given the half southern Italian results that I've seen on gedmatch (and knowing their exact ancestry papertrail), that's all.

It's simply incoherent.

And by the way I don't know if you have noticed, but it's not 50/50 for ancestry composition, not on G25 neither other calculator. So even your calculations are only one value that doesn't mean that much. That's why I made multiple models.


What's the point in dealing with fake components? I don't know what "east med" actually is while I can point at the Near Eastern DNA through actual ancient samples that simply didn't exist in Latium, Tuscany in the iron age and only existed up to 10% in Bronze Age Sicily, on the other hand all Southern Italians today have more of it and I choose the Apulian sample with least Near Eastern DNA, so again why are so skeptic?

What's the point ? You haven't seen the models that I made ?

None of them come as Emilian/Tuscan/Ligurian, and I even choose a very southern modelization like half S-Italian half Central Greek.


Are all those sample from Italy invalid? Should we have the family history of all the peolpe there back to the late antique period? Should we arbitrarily exclude some samples? Honestly we are running in circles just because you are really stubborn about technicalities and non-issues.

You don't understand that you can have more Near Eastern admixture but also more Northern components (exactly like Galicians have more North-African but more North European admixture and they still plot well within the Iberian cluster), overall you will not plot more "southern". The Venetian sample has similar Northern/Southern ratio than the model that you made.

You're just saying that Eurogenes K13 calculator is completely inaccurate and that if you plot/you are close with Venetians in reality you plot with Emilians because you have more "Near Eastern DNA". :picard2:


Look we can dispute samples and their provenance all day, but their general layout and pattern is clear and Piedmont and Liguria have that kind of Near Eastern DNA, Lombardy, Trentino, Veneto, Aosta, "Northeast", Bergamo(totally on top of the alps!) don't have it to same extent(less than 3%).

I think you haven't understood what I said, again. I'm talking about Eurogenes K13 modelizations.

And yes there are genetical differences between Alpine Italians and Italians that live in plain areas. Damn you clearly haven’t any clue about Southern Italian genetics.

[Samnium]

You have to ask Lukasz what his FR_Savoie average consists of, because if it also includes Haute Savoie that's your closest approximation

I will ask but my guess is Southern Savoie, which turn out to be similar to Provence, no surprise (Southern Savoie is almost Provence geographically).

Haute-Savoie hasn't really a good average, and I haven't seen lot of Haute-Savoie results, but Giemza showed that's an area that's in the Northern France cluster, these results are very Italian shifted, never seen something like that, even more than Auvergnats/Central French. It's very atypical also considering Haute-Savoie results that I have found that were halfway between West German and French average on Eurogenes K13.

[Rocinante]

My point is I already did everything you said we should do, there is no reason to somehow think my Apulian or French sample is not "northern" enough, which is what you seem to have been impliying.



What's the point in dealing with fake components? I don't know what "east med" actually is while I can point at the Near Eastern DNA through actual ancient samples that simply didn't exist in Latium, Tuscany in the iron age and only existed up to 10% in Bronze Age Sicily, on the other hand all Southern Italians today have more of it and I choose the Apulian sample with least Near Eastern DNA, so again why are so skeptic?


Look we can dispute samples and their provenance all day, but their general layout and pattern is clear and Piedmont and Liguria have that kind of Near Eastern DNA, Lombardy, Trentino, Veneto, Aosta, "Northeast", Bergamo(totally on top of the alps!) don't have it to same extent(less than 3%).




As they should given we are in the same ball park of Near Eastern DNA. French DNA doesn't eliminate the Near Eastern DNA.

The value I had before:

49% ENF, 10.5% Near Eastern, 32.5% Steppe and 8% extra WHG

Are directly comparable to Ligurian(although the Ligurian sample is just one and has weird Berber-like admixture, so whatever):

49.5% ENF, 13% Near Eastern+Berber, 29% Steppe and 8.5% WHG

And Piedmont:

55% ENF, 8.5% Near Eastern, 32% Steppe and 4.5% WHG

Tuscany is not that far:

54% ENF, 13% Near Eastern, 29% Steppe and 3% WHG

While on the other hand, Veneto looks like this:

57% ENF, 2.5% Near Eastern, 33% Steppe and 7.5% WHG

And Trentino like this:

57% ENF, 36% Steppe and 7% WHG

Are all those sample from Italy invalid? Should we have the family history of all the peolpe there back to the late antique period? Should we arbitrarily exclude some samples? Honestly we are running in circles just because you are really stubborn about technicalities and non-issues.

Using my new neolithic calc, that is giving extremely good distances, i will make a decent neolithic simulation to Samnium:

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.6948% / 0.00694850
57.8 FARMER
32.4 YAMNAYA
6.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
1.8 MAR_EN
0.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: French_Nord
Distance: 1.3273% / 0.01327337
46.8 YAMNAYA
46.6 FARMER
5.2 WHG
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.6 MAR_EN

Wow... Apulians more europeans than tuscans and lazians. So according this, and with a good distance, Samnium's results would be like this:

FARMER 52~%
YAMNAYA 40~%
WHG 3~%
IRN_Wezmeh_N 3~%
MAR_EN 1~%

[Samnium]

Using my new neolithic calc, that is giving extremely good distances, i will make a decent neolithic simulation to Samnium:

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.6948% / 0.00694850
57.8 FARMER
32.4 YAMNAYA
6.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
1.8 MAR_EN
0.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: French_Nord
Distance: 1.3273% / 0.01327337
46.8 YAMNAYA
46.6 FARMER
5.2 WHG
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.6 MAR_EN

Wow... Apulians more europeans than tuscans and lazians. So according this, and with a good distance, Samnium's results would be like this:

FARMER 52~%
YAMNAYA 40~%
WHG 3~%
IRN_Wezmeh_N 3~%
MAR_EN 1~%

Your calculator give strong fits, overall. It's very interesting, I will use it

[Vid Flumina]

I will ask but my guess is Southern Savoie, which turn out to be similar to Provence, no surprise (Southern Savoie is almost Provence geographically).


Savoie is Northern French as well on your map, lumped with Seine Maritime/Artois xD

Do you reckon both profiles (Provençal-like and Northern French-like) coexist within such tiny area?



Haute-Savoie hasn't really a good average, and I haven't seen lot of Haute-Savoie results, but Giemza showed that's an area that's in the Northern France cluster, these results are very Italian shifted, never seen something like that, even more than Auvergnats/Central French.

Perfectly matches geography, what's so baffling about it?


It's very atypical also considering Haute-Savoie results that I have found that were halfway between West German and French average on Eurogenes K13.

Would you mind posting them?

[Token]

Haute-Savoie is Provençal-like, like Aosta Valley. These studies with modern samples have a fame of not being accurate.

[trebil]

Where is typical South Italian SSA?

there is no typical South Italian SSA, SSA in south Italians is very low and rare

[gixajo]

there is no typical South Italian SSA, SSA in south Italians is very low and rare

It was a joke to make reference to the recurrent topic that always blame about any European population considered "dark".:thumb001:

[gixajo]

Your calculator give strong fits, overall. It's very interesting, I will use it

But, do you already make any test?

[Samnium]

But, do you already make any test?

No

[Defcon2]

It was a joke to make reference to the recurrent topic that always blame about any European population considered "dark".:thumb001:

Gedmatch calculators throw a lot of SSA at some Iberians, I have a 3.20 and 3.11 in K15 and K13 respectively.

[Samnium]

Haute-Savoie is Provençal-like, like Aosta Valley. These studies with modern samples have a fame of not being accurate.

Are you sure ? I will try to find new results about that area because I haven’t seen many of them. And what about Swiss French ?

There were a thread on Anthrogenica with many french results, some of rhem were partially from Haute-Savoie and they weren’t Provencal-shifted at all.

If anything I would expect Haute-Savoie to be somewhere between Swiss German and Val d’Aosta.

Savoie would be more Provencal-like, Haute-Savoie, don’t think so from what I’ve seen.

[gixajo]

Gedmatch calculators throw a lot of SSA at some Iberians, I have a 3.20 and 3.11 in K15 and K13 respectively.

I have not SSA in k15 or k13.

[Token]

Are you sure ? I will try to find new results about that area because I haven’t seen many of them. And what about Swiss French ?

There were a thread on Anthrogenica with many french results, some of rhem were partially from Haute-Savoie and they weren’t Provencal-shifted at all.

If anything I would expect Haute-Savoie to be somewhere between Swiss German and Val d’Aosta.

Savoie would be more Provencal-like, Haute-Savoie, don’t think so from what I’ve seen.

Haute-Savoie:

1 North_Atlantic 40.93
2 West_Med 20.11
3 Baltic 18.42
4 East_Med 13.76
5 West_Asian 3.25
6 Red_Sea 1.81
7 South_Asian 0.92
8 Oceanian 0.69
9 Siberian 0.12

1 French 3.92
2 Spanish_Cataluna 7.71
3 West_German 8.41
4 Portuguese 8.52
5 South_Dutch 8.6
6 Spanish_Galicia 8.98
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.07
8 Spanish_Valencia 9.95
9 Spanish_Murcia 10.14
10 Spanish_Extremadura 10.6
11 Spanish_Cantabria 10.95
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 11.31
13 Southwest_French 11.44
14 Spanish_Andalucia 12.39
15 North_Italian 12.63
16 Spanish_Aragon 13.03
17 Austrian 13.15
18 Southeast_English 13.31
19 Southwest_English 14.66
20 East_German 15.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.4% North_Italian + 48.6% Southeast_English @ 2.61
2 54.7% West_German + 45.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.03
3 57.5% Spanish_Valencia + 42.5% Austrian @ 3.07
4 92.6% French + 7.4% Ashkenazi @ 3.08
5 64.4% Spanish_Cataluna + 35.6% Austrian @ 3.09
6 56% North_Italian + 44% Orcadian @ 3.12
7 84.1% French + 15.9% North_Italian @ 3.16
8 88.5% French + 11.5% Tuscan @ 3.17
9 90.8% French + 9.2% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.18
10 93.8% French + 6.2% Italian_Jewish @ 3.19
11 50.4% West_German + 49.6% Portuguese @ 3.21
12 94% French + 6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.21
13 57% Spanish_Murcia + 43% Austrian @ 3.22
14 69.4% Spanish_Cataluna + 30.6% Hungarian @ 3.22
15 91.8% French + 8.2% West_Sicilian @ 3.26
16 90.1% French + 9.9% Bulgarian @ 3.27
17 57.1% North_Italian + 42.9% North_Dutch @ 3.28
18 57.1% North_Italian + 42.9% Danish @ 3.29
19 57.8% Southeast_English + 42.2% Tuscan @ 3.32
20 93.3% French + 6.7% East_Sicilian @ 3.34

[Leto]

Samnium's father is 8-12% East_Med and 0-2% Red_Sea, I would guess.

[Voskos]

https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/giphy.gif

[Samnium]

Haute-Savoie:

1 North_Atlantic 40.93
2 West_Med 20.11
3 Baltic 18.42
4 East_Med 13.76
5 West_Asian 3.25
6 Red_Sea 1.81
7 South_Asian 0.92
8 Oceanian 0.69
9 Siberian 0.12

1 French 3.92
2 Spanish_Cataluna 7.71
3 West_German 8.41
4 Portuguese 8.52
5 South_Dutch 8.6
6 Spanish_Galicia 8.98
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.07
8 Spanish_Valencia 9.95
9 Spanish_Murcia 10.14
10 Spanish_Extremadura 10.6
11 Spanish_Cantabria 10.95
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 11.31
13 Southwest_French 11.44
14 Spanish_Andalucia 12.39
15 North_Italian 12.63
16 Spanish_Aragon 13.03
17 Austrian 13.15
18 Southeast_English 13.31
19 Southwest_English 14.66
20 East_German 15.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.4% North_Italian + 48.6% Southeast_English @ 2.61
2 54.7% West_German + 45.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.03
3 57.5% Spanish_Valencia + 42.5% Austrian @ 3.07
4 92.6% French + 7.4% Ashkenazi @ 3.08
5 64.4% Spanish_Cataluna + 35.6% Austrian @ 3.09
6 56% North_Italian + 44% Orcadian @ 3.12
7 84.1% French + 15.9% North_Italian @ 3.16
8 88.5% French + 11.5% Tuscan @ 3.17
9 90.8% French + 9.2% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.18
10 93.8% French + 6.2% Italian_Jewish @ 3.19
11 50.4% West_German + 49.6% Portuguese @ 3.21
12 94% French + 6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.21
13 57% Spanish_Murcia + 43% Austrian @ 3.22
14 69.4% Spanish_Cataluna + 30.6% Hungarian @ 3.22
15 91.8% French + 8.2% West_Sicilian @ 3.26
16 90.1% French + 9.9% Bulgarian @ 3.27
17 57.1% North_Italian + 42.9% North_Dutch @ 3.28
18 57.1% North_Italian + 42.9% Danish @ 3.29
19 57.8% Southeast_English + 42.2% Tuscan @ 3.32
20 93.3% French + 6.7% East_Sicilian @ 3.34

I have also results from Haute-Savoie that plot "northern" of "French reference", I will make a whole post with all the results that I have found (I don't have them, I have done a search that has done nothing but I will continue).

+ this sample isn't particuliarly southern shifted.

[Token]

I have also results from Haute-Savoie that plot "northern" of "French reference", I will make a whole post with all the results that I have found (I don't have them, I have done a search that has done nothing).

+ this sample isn't particuliarly southern shifted.
This sample is roughly like Provence, more or less equidistant from Iberians and West Germans. This Provence sample is even more northern than Savoyards. Haute-Savoie is in southeastern France, i don't know why you expect it to be genetically Northern French.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 43.51
2 West_Med 22.08
3 Baltic 20.48
4 West_Asian 7.01
5 East_Med 5.86
6 Siberian 1.06


1 French 6.3
2 South_Dutch 6.43
3 West_German 7.42
4 Southeast_English 10.24
5 Southwest_English 10.46
6 Spanish_Cataluna 11.14
7 Southwest_French 11.42
8 Orcadian 11.99
9 Spanish_Cantabria 12.25
10 Austrian 12.35
11 Spanish_Galicia 12.53
12 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.64
13 Irish 12.75
14 North_German 12.88
15 Portuguese 13.08
16 West_Scottish 13.1
17 North_Dutch 13.11
18 Danish 13.46
19 East_German 13.65
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.81

[Samnium]

This sample is roughly like Provence, more or less equidistant from Iberians and West Germans. This Provence sample is even more northern than Savoyards. Haute-Savoie is in southeastern France, i don't know why you expect it to be genetically Northern French.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 43.51
2 West_Med 22.08
3 Baltic 20.48
4 West_Asian 7.01
5 East_Med 5.86
6 Siberian 1.06


1 French 6.3
2 South_Dutch 6.43
3 West_German 7.42
4 Southeast_English 10.24
5 Southwest_English 10.46
6 Spanish_Cataluna 11.14
7 Southwest_French 11.42
8 Orcadian 11.99
9 Spanish_Cantabria 12.25
10 Austrian 12.35
11 Spanish_Galicia 12.53
12 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.64
13 Irish 12.75
14 North_German 12.88
15 Portuguese 13.08
16 West_Scottish 13.1
17 North_Dutch 13.11
18 Danish 13.46
19 East_German 13.65
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.81

Because of samples that I had seen from that area + recent study from Giemza + historical factors

Also Haute-Savoie is central France geographically, on line with Auvergne :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Haute-Savoie-Position.svg/1200px-Haute-Savoie-Position.svg.png

[Samnium]

The sample that you sent has ancestry also from Savoie :

"The example I posted above has ancestry from both Haute Savoie and the lower Savoie deparments."

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15180-How-genetically-similar-are-Modern-Greeks-to-the-ancient-ones/page31

Not a good example I would say. I'm trying to find the Haute-Savoie results that I had seen but it's pretty difficult

[Samnium]

I've found again these results quite interesting:

https://www.geneanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77580&t=652616&start=15


Pour ma mère (75% Champagne-Lorraine, 25% Haute-Savoie) ça donne :
Distance to: B
4.45341442 Swiss_German
5.56779130 South_Dutch
5.67177221 French
6.12599380 West_German
6.60540688 Swiss_French

Distance: 1.7809% / 1.78089489 | ADC: 0.25x
48.0 Swiss_German
22.0 Southwest_French
10.2 Swedish
7.8 German_east
7.0 French
5.0 South_Dutch

Pour ma tante (sa belle-sœur), 100% champenoise :
5.38108725 French
5.87361899 Swiss_German
6.15633820 Swiss_French
6.99535560 South_Dutch
7.62200105 West_German
7.84549552 AostaValley

53.6 Swiss_French
27.8 Welsh
10.8 Southwest_French
6.6 Spanish_Galicia
1.2 Serb_North-Macedonia

Both have North-Eastern French ancestry, but one is 25% Haute-Savoie. She's not shifted at all toward Northern Italy not even slightly (Swiss_German and South_Dutch appears in first place), Aosta isn't even present in the list and it doesn't appear in the model.

[Samnium]

Swiss French (Canton de Vaud)/Swiss German (Fribourg)/Haute-Savoie (vallée de l'Arve) mix, she's very close to the West German average

K13 :

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.31
2 Baltic 22.09
3 West_Med 15.11
4 East_Med 12.15
5 West_Asian 6.86
6 Northeast_African 1.28
7 South_Asian 0.86
8 Siberian 0.34

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 3.86
2 South_Dutch 5.44
3 French 6.91
4 Austrian 8.69
5 Southeast_English 10.45
6 North_German 10.7
7 East_German 10.91
8 Hungarian 11.97
9 Danish 12.14
10 North_Dutch 12.39
11 Southwest_English 12.5
12 Orcadian 12.59
13 Irish 13.65
14 Spanish_Cataluna 13.66
15 Serbian 13.96
16 West_Scottish 14.05
17 Portuguese 14.49
18 Norwegian 14.56
19 Swedish 14.88
20 Spanish_Galicia 14.91

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.3% West_German + 8.7% Ashkenazi @ 2.32
2 92.5% West_German + 7.5% Italian_Jewish @ 2.42
3 70.3% Southeast_English + 29.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.44
4 92.8% West_German + 7.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.48
5 94.5% West_German + 5.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.49
6 89.2% West_German + 10.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.52
7 93.4% West_German + 6.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.53
8 93.5% West_German + 6.5% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.55
9 91.3% West_German + 8.7% East_Sicilian @ 2.56
10 94% West_German + 6% Cyprian @ 2.56
11 90.5% West_German + 9.5% West_Sicilian @ 2.56
12 92.8% West_German + 7.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.57
13 91.9% West_German + 8.1% South_Italian @ 2.57
14 94.8% West_German + 5.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.58
15 64.2% Danish + 35.8% Tuscan @ 2.58
16 91.2% West_German + 8.8% Central_Greek @ 2.59
17 94.7% West_German + 5.3% Samaritan @ 2.6
18 69.7% Danish + 30.3% West_Sicilian @ 2.6
19 90.2% West_German + 9.8% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.63
20 88.3% West_German + 11.7% Tuscan @ 2.63

K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 29.52
2 North_Sea 23.88
3 Baltic 11.18
4 West_Med 11.07
5 East_Med 9.52
6 Eastern_Euro 8.67
7 West_Asian 4.88
8 Northeast_African 1.13
9 South_Asian 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Dutch 7.3
2 French 7.99
3 Austrian 10.16
4 Spanish_Cataluna 10.74
5 North_German 11.25
6 West_German 11.3
7 East_German 11.69
8 Southwest_English 11.86
9 Southeast_English 11.95
10 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.97
11 Portuguese 12.62
12 Spanish_Murcia 12.69
13 Spanish_Galicia 12.93
14 Serbian 13.18
15 Spanish_Extremadura 13.3
16 Spanish_Valencia 13.41
17 Irish 13.45
18 Danish 13.65
19 Hungarian 13.85
20 Southwest_French 14.08

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.3% North_German + 41.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.48
2 55.1% North_German + 44.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.51
3 58.1% North_German + 41.9% North_Italian @ 4.93
4 53.6% North_German + 46.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 5
5 64.3% Irish + 35.7% Greek @ 5.02
6 67.5% Southeast_English + 32.5% Greek @ 5.05
7 57.3% North_German + 42.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 5.24
8 63% West_Scottish + 37% Greek @ 5.26
9 82.4% South_Dutch + 17.6% West_Sicilian @ 5.26
10 81.7% South_Dutch + 18.3% Greek @ 5.31
11 51.5% Spanish_Cataluna + 48.5% North_German @ 5.31
12 71.4% South_Dutch + 28.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 5.41
13 51.9% Austrian + 48.1% Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.41
14 65.7% Irish + 34.3% West_Sicilian @ 5.41
15 58.7% Spanish_Valencia + 41.3% North_Swedish @ 5.42
16 74.5% South_Dutch + 25.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.49
17 53% Danish + 47% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.49
18 58.6% Spanish_Valencia + 41.4% Southwest_Finnish @ 5.49
19 65.1% North_German + 34.9% Tuscan @ 5.51
20 70.6% North_German + 29.4% West_Sicilian @ 5.51

[SharpFork]

Using my new neolithic calc, that is giving extremely good distances, i will make a decent neolithic simulation to Samnium:

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.6948% / 0.00694850
57.8 FARMER
32.4 YAMNAYA
6.4 IRN_Wezmeh_N
1.8 MAR_EN
0.8 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

What is Farmer and Yamnaya exactly? Also why you use that Iranian sample and not others as well? Also given you use Mar_EN why not have Natufian there as well? You have no way of representing Natufian-like dna.



Wow... Apulians more europeans than tuscans and lazians. So according this, and with a good distance, Samnium's results would be like this:
More European how exactly?

[SharpFork]

No it's not what I'm saying, I'm only saying that's not logical the region where I would "plot" given the half southern Italian results that I've seen on gedmatch (and knowing their exact ancestry papertrail), that's all.

It's simply incoherent.

And by the way I don't know if you have noticed, but it's not 50/50 for ancestry composition, not on G25 neither other calculator. So even your calculations are only one value that doesn't mean that much. That's why I made multiple models.
Again explain why G25 is worse than gedmatch?


What's the point ? You haven't seen the models that I made ?

None of them come as Emilian/Tuscan/Ligurian, and I even choose a very southern modelization like half S-Italian half Central Greek.
I did, but my point is that G25 is better. We don't have to try and interpret what fake components are.



You don't understand that you can have more Near Eastern admixture but also more Northern components (exactly like Galicians have more North-African but more North European admixture and they still plot well within the Iberian cluster), overall you will not plot more "southern". The Venetian sample has similar Northern/Southern ratio than the model that you made.
I know that, after all the results show that, a Piedmontese with more Steppe and more Near Eastern and less ENF, or a Ligurian with a more Steppe+WHG and less Near Eastern, but they are still closer to those 2 than to other populations in Norhtern Italy.


You're just saying that Eurogenes K13 calculator is completely inaccurate and that if you plot/you are close with Venetians in reality you plot with Emilians because you have more "Near Eastern DNA". :picard2:
At this point just use fst distance man, it's a direct way to actually look at the issue, instead of fiddling with abstract componenets.


I think you haven't understood what I said, again. I'm talking about Eurogenes K13 modelizations.
Then why are you so stubborn and try to counter the G25 results I have? I made it pretty clear I was talking about G25, if you don't understand English It's not on me.


And yes there are genetical differences between Alpine Italians and Italians that live in plain areas. Damn you clearly haven’t any clue about Southern Italian genetics.
Not according to G25, all samples in Northern italy outside Liguria and Piedmont(and we have no Emilian) are similar to one another. With no clear plain vs mountain bias, so your point is completely irrelevant.

[Samnium]

Again explain why G25 is worse than gedmatch?

I've never said that, you didn't understood what I said. I only said that your modelization doesn't match with mine (that I made by making averages between differents components and a sample) because your modelization end up in "Ligurian-like" while mine (using K13), no.


I did, but my point is that G25 is better. We don't have to try and interpret what fake components are.

Eurogenes K13 implemented on G25 is just fine, you can see directly and more clearly the genetical distances than with the "standard" mode. Also it's much more easier to see Northern/Southern ratios with this calculator.

You have access to much more modern populations also, you don't find two averages for Tuscany in the standard "drive" of G25 modern populations.

[/QUOTE]I know that, after all the results show that, a Piedmontese with more Steppe and more Near Eastern and less ENF, or a Ligurian with a more Steppe+WHG and less Near Eastern, but they are still closer to those 2 than to other populations in Norhtern Italy.[/QUOTE]

But other populations that you've mentionned have more ENF, so the "southern shift" is equal and overall they will plot at the same place and be close genetically. Atleast on 2D PCA.


At this point just use fst distance man, it's a direct way to actually look at the issue, instead of fiddling with abstract componenets.

It's not possible to make averages of selected samples on G25, you can only do it on the K13/K15 G25 "calculator".


Then why are you so stubborn and try to counter the G25 results I have? I made it pretty clear I was talking about G25, if you don't understand English It's not on me.

I'm only saying that it doesn't make sense with my simulations.


Not according to G25, all samples in Northern italy outside Liguria and Piedmont(and we have no Emilian) are similar to one another.

I'm saying that there are strong variations between different areas in Northern Italy, there is a mainstream "padanian" cluster, and then populations/people that cluster more northern and other more southern. Alpine Italians cluster northern and some of them are very atypical.