How do European sub-races relate to the LGM refuges?

[Albion]

If humans in Europe were largely confined to Ice Age refuges in three areas then shouldn't the sub-races roughly correspond to the genes associated with them?

For example Med with the Basque refuge - R1b?
Balkans refuge - Nordics? - I?
Ukrainian refuge - Alpines???? - R1a?

Yeah, as you may be able to tell I haven't really worked anything out, I doubt the Basque refuge was Med for a start. Maybe Med came with E3b but I don't think there's enough of E3b types in Europe to really support this.

http://marin70.go.ro/europe_haplogroups_3.jpg

But is there any correlation in the spread of the races and the re-peopling of Europe after the LGM or did the sub-races develop latter or earlier?

http://www.roperld.com/graphics/IceAgeRefugiaR1bR1aIHaplogroups.jpg

So any ideas?

[Comte Arnau]

The Basque refuge with Med? Lol. If anything, it'd be related to the typical Western Europe robustness, previous to the post-Neolithic 'softness'.

[Albion]

The Basque refuge with Med? Lol. If anything, it'd be related to the typical Western Europe robustness, previous to the post-Neolithic 'softness'.

Do you have any ideas?

[Sahson]

Do you have any ideas?

all the atlantid forms have some robustness to them. Atlanto-med is known for being the most robust Med you can find. look at Atlantid's, North-Atlantids. generally strong zygomatic arches.

Xabi Alonso is an Atlantid variant and he is a very robust atlantid, in comparison to Matthew Goode. Though in some photos Matthew Goode looks quite robust too...

[Frederick]

I dont think Phenotypes and Y-DNA Haplogroups match well.
With the exception of maybe I1, wich looks pretty close to "Nordid".

But Alpine for example... cant be linked to a Y-DNA haplogroup and LEAST to R1a.

Rough distribution of the "Alpine Race":
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13695&stc=1&d=1313861303

Some people link it to old European natives (and claim all the "robust" types to the Natives and claim all the gracile types to some masterrace that conquered Europe in the neolithic or something.).

Geneticans claim, less than 10% of all modern day Europeans descent from the old natives at all and those who do, usualy live in Northern Scandinavia, Finland and the Baltic states.

The Nazis claimed its not a race at all but its a mix of races. And a possible result of Northern Europeans mixing with Southern ones.

Not few people see a connection between "Alpine Race" and the Celts because of this:
(a great part of the Celtic area overlaps with the "Alpine belt")
http://www.antikefan.de/kulturen/kelten/bilder/kelten_ausbreitung.jpg

If one now imagines the myth about dwarven...
Small, roundfaced people who live in mountains, digg for gold and are superior metal workers. ;)

So far, nobody found a genetical connection in the "Alpine Belt".
Not in Y-DNA, mtDNA and not in aDNA clusters.

But maybe one needs to limit the research to people with the same phenotype, to find mutations that they do have in common.

[Albion]

I dont think Phenotypes and Y-DNA Haplogroups match well.
With the exception of maybe I1, wich looks pretty close to "Nordid".

But Alpine for example... cant be linked to a Y-DNA haplogroup and LEAST to R1a.

Rough distribution of the "Alpine Race":
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13695&stc=1&d=1313861303

Some people link it to old European natives (and claim all the "robust" types to the Natives and claim all the gracile types to some masterrace that conquered Europe in the neolithic or something.).

Geneticans claim, less than 10% of all modern day Europeans descent from the old natives at all and those who do, usualy live in Northern Scandinavia, Finland and the Baltic states.

The Nazis claimed its not a race at all but its a mix of races. And a possible result of Northern Europeans mixing with Southern ones.

Not few people see a connection between "Alpine Race" and the Celts because of this:
(a great part of the Celtic area overlaps with the "Alpine belt")
http://www.antikefan.de/kulturen/kelten/bilder/kelten_ausbreitung.jpg

If one now imagines the myth about dwarven...
Small, roundfaced people who live in mountains, digg for gold and are superior metal workers. ;)

So far, nobody found a genetical connection in the "Alpine Belt".
Not in Y-DNA, mtDNA and not in aDNA clusters.

But maybe one needs to limit the research to people with the same phenotype, to find mutations that they do have in common.

Sounds possible, but I don't believe that about the genetics, natives probably still dominate.

[Frederick]

Sounds possible, but I don't believe that about the genetics, natives probably still dominate.

But their mtDNA is very low now. ;)

The natives had been 80% U5

So, here is where you find native mtDNA still:
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3396/richards07u5yj2.gif

[Logan]

I read somewhere, that the particular R1b I carry was in the Balkans refuge, not with the other R1bs in the Basque.

http://www.stickerchick.com/S/6062.jpg

Not yet.

[Albion]

But their mtDNA is very low now. ;)

The natives had been 80% U5

So, here is where you find native mtDNA still:
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3396/richards07u5yj2.gif

How do we know what haplogroups pre-Indo-Europeans belonged to? And aren't Finnic peoples supposed to have been a late addition to NE Europe?

[Frederick]

How do we know what haplogroups pre-Indo-Europeans belonged to? And aren't Finnic peoples supposed to have been a late addition to NE Europe?

We know it because we DNA tested the bones of them.

The problem is, that its almost impossible to find Y-DNA in a corpse that is dead for several thousand years and one needs extreme luck that enough of it has remained (thats why we DONT have Y-DNA of the European natives. Some people fantasize about "I" beeing the Y-DNA of the natives, but we dont know it)

But mtDNA is very stabile (we already extracted mtDNA of 30.000+ year old human remains)

And 80% of the pre-farming age hunter gatherer Europeans that had been DNA tested have the mtDNA haplogroup U5.


And aren't Finnic peoples supposed to have been a late addition to NE Europe?
Their males (N1) yes. Their females carry native European hunter gatherer DNA.

And it seems it was all very quickly. Once the agriculturalists arrived, there is a very fast and dramatical drop in U5.

But the mtDNA of the aggriculturalists is also dead now.
Over 50% of their females carried a haplogroup that is now at 0.2% in Europe.

[Sahson]

I mapped my Mitochondrial haplogroup...

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x387/sahson1/mtdnaI.png

Midnight blue(finland) - greater than 5%
Dark blue(england) - 3 ~ 4%
Blueberry(france) - 2.5 ~ 3%
Aqua(Italy) - 2%
Orchid(sweden) - 1.5%
Ice(hungary) - 1% and below.

Does this make mine Finnic or Celtic?

[Albion]

I mapped my Mitochondrial haplogroup...

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x387/sahson1/mtdnaI.png

Midnight blue(finland) - greater than 5%
Dark blue(england) - 3 ~ 4%
Blueberry(france) - 2.5 ~ 3%
Aqua(Italy) - 2%
Orchid(sweden) - 1.5%
Ice(hungary) - 1% and below.

Does this make mine Finnic or Celtic?

Since you're from Western Europe then Celtic. The mtDNA groups seem to be totally different from the male groups, I haven't looked at them in detail yet.

[Sahson]

Since you're from Western Europe then Celtic. The mtDNA groups seem to be totally different from the male groups, I haven't looked at them in detail yet.

It's funny because your verdict defies Haplogroup history, and migration... Mtdna I and W never migrated across the continental landmass... but north. I and W are also one of the oldest european haplogroups.

Have a look at the I, and W migration into Europe that happened 40-60,000 years ago...

http://www.kerchner.com/images/dna/mtdna_migrationmap_(FTDNA2006).jpg

http://volgagermanbrit.us/photos/GenographicProjectMap.jpg

I think haplogroup I is too old for finnic and celtic to be frank, and it's low numbers suggest it's on it's way out, well when i have kids, there will be no more Mtdna I to carry on... I'm the end of the line for my family lineage...

[Albion]

OK, which one is it then and I'll do some more research:

http://i15.tinypic.com/4v6nh4x.gif

Oh, and this page is good (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#mtDNA), but some of it is baised towards Indo-European large-scale migrations which haven't been proved yet,so take it with a pinch of salt.

Basically if you look at the map you'll be able to see straight away that the women of Europe are a lot more diverse in genetic background than the men.
Some have suggested this is because the dominant haplogroups for men (R1b,R1a, I and N3) basically were the most successful men and took the women from pretty much all the groups and that other male lineages would have once existed but died out.
I suppose better hunters were better survivors and providers, but in women that didn't matter and so most of their lineages survived.

[Sahson]

Present at low frequencies in most of Europe, in Anatolia, around the Caspian Sea, and from the Indo-Pakistani border to Xinjiang, haplogroup W is one of the best maternal markers of Indo-European ancestry (mtDNA equivalent of R1a and R1b). Its highest frequency is in Ukraine, European Russia, Baltic countries and Finland (3 to 5% overall), as well as in northern Pakistan (15%), Punjab (9%) and Gujarat (12%). In Indian it is considerably more common among the upper castes and among Indo-European speakers


Haplogroup I has a similar distribution to haplogroup W, ranging from Europe to Pakistan and North-West India, with a characteristic presence in Pontic steppes and around the Caspian Sea. Its origin very probably lies in the Proto-Indo-European cultures (mtDNA mirror of R1a and R1b). Haplogroup I is nearly absent in parts of Europe from distant from the Pontic-Caspian steppes (Iberia, South-West France, Ireland) and strongest in Norway, southern Finland, Ukraine, Greece and western Anatolia.

So they are assuming Finnish is Proto-Indo-european???

[Albion]

So they are assuming Finnish is Proto-Indo-european???

No, because of it's low level they're presuming that they're Indo-European and that it's presence in Finland is as a result of Finnic men taking a few Indo-Europeans who were migrating northwards as wives.

The Balts (Latvians, Lithuanians) are basically Finnics who picked up IE languages and a few "IE genes", Finns and Estonians are Finnics who kept speaking Finnic and kept predominantly Finnic genes and took fewer "IE genes".

[Sahson]

Are you confusing Y-DNA HgI with MTdna HgI???

I feel you are half the time...

[Albion]

Are you confusing Y-DNA HgI with MTdna HgI???

I feel you are half the time...

No, you're confusing me. What is it with you, you're like an enigma? :D

No, what I meant was this:


Women in Europe are a heck of a lot more diverse than the men. This is because the men were hunters and the one's who carried the best suited cultures to the environment with them survived and got the women
Women on the other hand, not generally being hunters meant that the men simply married them for their looks, company and breeding potential more than anything else and so a wider range of women survived
The I mtDNA group got carried north into Finland. There isn't really any corresponding male haplogroups which match this migration,the closest is probably R1a and as Europedia suggests - 'I' women could have spread with R1a men.
Some of the 'I' women could have then been taken as wives by Finnic men, mostly N3 Y-DNA since women tend tomarry outside of their ethnic group more often than men.


Europedia says:


Deep subclades can be associated with more specific regions, but do not necessarily match historical ethnic and linguistic groups. One likely reason is that women, through whom mtDNA is passed, tended to marry outside their ethnic group more often than men (e.g. to secure an alliance between two tribes or kingdoms).

[d3cimat3d]

The way I see it is when the Ice age began, Ukraine became one of the main refuge areas of people escaping the cold, they mostly had haplogroup R1a and were Cro-Magnids, then after the ice sheets retreated they re-populated the Baltic as small bands of hunter-gatherers while others stayed in Ukraine and flourished because of easier climate and better food sources (pastoralism). Finally around 3,000 BC the R1a people who stayed behind in Ukraine domesticated the horse (first as a food source, then as transportation) and began expanding because of overcrowding. These Proto-Indo-Europeans usually avoided mountainous places like the Caucasus or Balkans, but loved grassy areas where their herds could feed - hence why we see the absence of R1a in the Balkans and Caucasus.

So... Balts, Slavs, and most North-East Europeans especially Finns are the closest relatives of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Finns lack R1a (6%) only because it was replaced with a N1c1 founder effect.

I don't know how my Neolithic G2a5 fits into all this though. :p

[Bridie]

Women on the other hand, not generally being hunters meant that the men simply married them for their looks, company and breeding potential more than anything else and so a wider range of women survived
Not that it makes any difference, but a lot of the time men probably just impregnated women (whether they married them or not) because they were there and not protected by another, more dominant group of men. :shrug:

[Sahson]

Not that it makes any difference, but a lot of the time men probably just impregnated women (whether they married them or not) because they were there and not protected by another, more dominant group of men. :shrug:

yes, women were good spoils. the show ROME depicted roman men enjoying Gaulish women, while they were invading. Just stopping by a lonely woman and giving her one up the duffer.

[Bridie]

yes, women were good spoils. the show ROME depicted roman men enjoying Gaulish women, while they were invading. Just stopping by a lonely woman and giving her one up the duffer.And now it becomes obvious why women are instinctively attracted to the strongest and most powerful of men. :p Protection.

Would make sense in this context that invading men would not always have had to take native women by force... many of them would likely have gone willingly if they sensed that the invading men were stronger and more dominant.

[Albion]

And now it becomes obvious why women are instinctively attracted to the strongest and most powerful of men. :p Protection.

Would make sense in this context that invading men would not always have had to take native women by force... many of them would likely have gone willingly if they sensed that the invading men were stronger and more dominant.

...And this explains well why European men only belong to a scant few haplogroups compared to women, because the material culture and perhaps even physical ability of these men was superior to other now rare or extinct male haplogroups.
Survival of the fittest.

Thanks Mary, I'd been trying to figure that one out for a while, how so few came to dominate Y-DNA. :thumb001:

[Sahson]

No, you're confusing me. What is it with you, you're like an enigma? :D


It's called the Sahson Paradox.

you either get accustomed to it, or you don't. :D

[Agrippa]

I dont think Phenotypes and Y-DNA Haplogroups match well.
With the exception of maybe I1, wich looks pretty close to "Nordid".

In the wider sense, rather Nordeuropid (Nordid + Dalofaelid).


But Alpine for example... cant be linked to a Y-DNA haplogroup and LEAST to R1a.

Alpinisation was a process and usually happened in a large scale among a dependent peasantry. This means there is practically no "pure Alpinid" people, probably since the Neolithic expansions, there was never a "pure Alpinid" people, other than some isolated groups here and there.

Because they practically always had a more progressive tendency or element among them, forming a large part of the leadership and protection.


Rough distribution of the "Alpine Race":
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13695&stc=1&d=1313861303

The Alpinid racial type is much wider spread, yet practically nowhere in those areas absolutely dominant, even relatively not everywhere!


Some people link it to old European natives (and claim all the "robust" types to the Natives and claim all the gracile types to some masterrace that conquered Europe in the neolithic or something.).

You mix up brachycephalic and pre-Neolithic with robust vs. gracile, which isn't entirely true, as there were robust and gracile elements in both segments.

Also if talking about Aurignacoids (leptodolichomorphic types), they were not all robust.

Alpinids are a reduced-gracilised version of Cromagnoids for the most part. This is the result of Alpinisation, a selective process primarily, but probably also newly introduced more gracile variants played a role, in a new recombination of traits and selection afterwards.

Decisive is however the later selection, because like explained elshewere already, the Alpinisation process is an adaptation to unfavourable living conditions in a dependent, often isolated peasantry.


Geneticans claim, less than 10% of all modern day Europeans descent from the old natives at all and those who do, usualy live in Northern Scandinavia, Finland and the Baltic states.

One should distinguish at least 4 waves:
- Palaeolithic (first)
- Mesolithic (second)
- Early Neolithic (third)
- Late Neolithic and early Metal Ages (fourth)

And then one could distinguish different directions from which the colonisers came, in everyone of this periods.


The Nazis claimed its not a race at all but its a mix of races. And a possible result of Northern Europeans mixing with Southern ones.

Why do you speak of "Nazis"? First of all, you should speak about German scientists or anthropologists. If talking about political people, well, then name them.

Tell us WHO EXACTLY said what, rather than what "some Nazis said"...


Not few people see a connection between "Alpine Race" and the Celts because of this:
(a great part of the Celtic area overlaps with the "Alpine belt")
http://www.antikefan.de/kulturen/kelten/bilder/kelten_ausbreitung.jpg

The Celts however were more Nordoid and Cromagnoid than Alpinid. There was however, in the late phase a certain trend towards Alpinisation observable, mostly among the lower, dependent peasant classes.


So far, nobody found a genetical connection in the "Alpine Belt".
Not in Y-DNA, mtDNA and not in aDNA clusters.

Haplogroups are older than Alpinisation, so one shouldn't wonder...

There might be however a general relationship of haplogroups to ancient population elements like the "South Easterners", largely made up of Pontid, Eastalpinid and Dinarid for example.

Or Western Alpine Neolithics and derivatives (Mediterranid and Alpinoid) on the other side.

Because from the populations established there, all these types stem from, are the result of later adaptative processes...



But maybe one needs to limit the research to people with the same phenotype, to find mutations that they do have in common.

Exactly, that's something what should be done.

I mean they do it for diseases, often traits caused by just one or two mutations.

For the types, there must be a whole series of genetic variants, so there must be a correlation, but not necessarily to haplogroups, since those often PREDATE modern Europid types, unless one searches for subvariants in a higher resolution test.