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Treffie
03-22-2009, 02:20 AM
The Welsh Not or Welsh Note was a piece of wood, inscribed with the letters "WN", that was hung round the necks of children who spoke Welsh in some schools in the 19th century. The "not" was given to any child overheard speaking Welsh, who would pass it to a different child if overheard speaking Welsh. By the end of the day, the wearer of the "not" would be given a lashing. The idea of the "not" was to discourage pupils from speaking Welsh, at a time when English was considered by some to be the only suitable medium of instruction.

History

The use of the "not" was recorded in the 18th century; it was also commonly known as the 'cwstom', the 'Welsh stick' and the 'Welsh lead' (a lump of lead). The practice was mentioned in the 1847 Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales. Though highly critical of many aspects of Welsh culture, some of the inspectors commented on the existence of the practice of using "nots" as being arbitrary and cruel. The report did not endorse the practice. Since education in this period was neither free nor compulsory it must be assumed that parents did endorse the practice where it was used. The reports also clearly show that the vast majority of education in Welsh Wales was still conducted in Welsh.

In the later decades of the 19th century, education was compulsory but the Welsh "not" was used only in a minority of schools, and after the school boards were absorbed by the county councils following the Local Government Act 1888, instruction in Welsh in elementary schools became the norm in Welsh-speaking areas. There is no evidence that the intermediate schools, in which instruction was almost universally in English, made use of the "not".

-----------------------------------------------

This example of a 'Welsh Not' was found at Garth School, Bangor, which has since been demolished. The 'Welsh Not' was used in some schools during the eighteenth and nineteenth century in a bid to prevent pupils from speaking Welsh.

http://www.gtj.org.uk/storage/components/batch_30/GTJ16684_1.jpg


The following pages have been selected from the Log Book of the Towyn British School, Merionethshire, for the period 1863-7. This Log Book contains numerous references to the attempts of Mr Edwin Jones, the headmaster, to prevent the children from speaking Welsh. In the entry shown on this page (14 August 1863), he says that he is 'at a loss to know the best method to adopt in order to prevent the children generally from speaking Welsh'. He explains that he has decided to use a 'Welsh stick' or 'Welsh Not' in order to punish the children who are caught speaking Welsh. The 'Welsh Not' was used in some schools during the eighteenth and nineteenth century in a bid to prevent pupils from speaking Welsh. The 'Welsh Not', which usually consisted of a small piece of wood or slate inscribed with the letters 'W.N', was hung around the neck of a child who was caught speaking Welsh. At the end of the school day, the child wearing the 'Welsh Not' would be punished by the schoolteacher.

http://www.gtj.org.uk/storage/components/batch_52/GTJ17911_1.jpg


This example of a 'Welsh Not' comes from Llangernyw School, Denbighshire.

http://www.gtj.org.uk/storage/components/batch_34/GTJ16937_1.jpg


Two examples of the 'Welsh Not'. The upper example is inscribed 'WN' and was used in Ysgol Pontgarreg, Llangrannog, Cardiganshire, in 1852. The lower example is inscribed 'Welsh N' and was found by builders at Capel Penrhiw, Drefach Felindre, as the chapel was being taken down before being moved to the Museum of Welsh Life. A school had been held at the chapel during the 19th century. Both examples are now on display in the main gallery at the Museum of Welsh Life.

http://www.gtj.org.uk/storage/components/batch_1104/GTJ31662_1.jpg

http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/education/schools/welsh-not/

Beorn
03-22-2009, 02:30 AM
Can I just say - and I care not for the whining and protestations from the English quarters of the net - but, as an Englishman who is intimately intertwined with the Welsh through blood; and has seen first hand the frustration of the proud, patriotic Welsh unable to speak the Welsh language fluently and progressively in order to hand down the generations: My apologies.

I have always known from extensive reading and study that the Welsh language was subdued and alienated from the Welsh cultural communities, but I never realised at what price and certainly not at what procedure.

Sorry Wales.



Now say sorry for killing my fellow Somersetonians on your extensive cattle/land raids you sheep shagging homos.

Gooding
03-22-2009, 02:33 AM
If they're Welsh, they live in Wales and speak Welsh, maybe that should actually be encouraged instead of suppressed. It's an embarassing testimony to those of us who were raised speaking English that other households were punished in school for speaking a Celtic language in their own homelands.

Treffie
03-22-2009, 02:34 AM
Can I just say - and I care not for the whining and protestations from the English quarters of the net - but, as an Englishman who is intimately intertwined with the Welsh through blood; and has seen first hand the frustration of the proud, patriotic Welsh unable to speak the Welsh language fluently and progressively in order to hand down the generations: My apologies.

I have always known from extensive reading and study that the Welsh language was subdued and alienated from the Welsh cultural communities, but I never realised at what price and certainly not at what procedure.

Sorry Wales.



Now say sorry for killing my fellow Somersetonians on your extensive cattle/land raids you sheep shagging homos.


No apology required, we just want your sheep, k? :D

Gooding
03-22-2009, 02:36 AM
Mutton is good, but why not from a good Welsh sheep, rather than sturdy English ones? :P

Treffie
03-22-2009, 02:39 AM
If they're Welsh, they live in Wales and speak Welsh, maybe that should actually be encouraged instead of suppressed. It's an embarassing testimony to those of us who were raised speaking English that other households were punished in school for speaking a Celtic language in their own homelands.


It's still considered an `unsafe` language according to UNESCO, but it's doing quite nicely now compared to its situation in the 1970's.

http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/index.php?pg=00206

Electronic God-Man
03-22-2009, 02:40 AM
I may be totally off-base here, but do the Welsh have a higher rate of Welsh-speakers than the Irish have Irish-speakers today?

I may have heard that that was true somewhere. On first guess I would not expect it to be so.

Beorn
03-22-2009, 02:48 AM
I may be totally off-base here, but do the Welsh have a higher rate of Welsh-speakers than the Irish have Irish-speakers today?

Trefelin may have more knowledge on this particular subject, but the highest rate of Brythonic speakers is actually the people of Brittany.

Electronic God-Man
03-22-2009, 02:51 AM
Trefelin may have more knowledge on this particular subject, but the highest rate of Brythonic speakers is actually the people of Brittany.

Wow, even so that is not what I would have expected.

Treffie
03-22-2009, 02:51 AM
I may be totally off-base here, but do the Welsh have a higher rate of Welsh-speakers than the Irish have Irish-speakers today?

I may have heard that that was true somewhere. On first guess I would not expect it to be so.

The figures for Irish Gaelic seem to vary greatly, estimates for fully native speakers are between 20,000 and 80,000. :mad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language

Welsh on the other hand seems to be the strongest of the remaining Celtic languages. The last census showed that there were over 450,000 fully native speakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language

Treffie
03-22-2009, 02:54 AM
Trefelin may have more knowledge on this particular subject, but the highest rate of Brythonic speakers is actually the people of Brittany.

Breton is more endangered than Welsh these days Beorn. There is no provision for Breton language education by the French Govt, I've got a feeling that it'll die out sooner rather than later if nothing is done to halt the decline. :mad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language

Beorn
03-22-2009, 03:04 AM
Breton is more endangered than Welsh these days Beorn. There is no provision for Breton language education by the French Govt, I've got a feeling that it'll die out sooner rather than later if nothing is done to halt the decline. :mad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language


Perhaps I am thinking backwards from actual fact and considering lower Brythonic as more advanced than it is!?

It would make sense what you're saying, as Cornish is a relatively unspoken tongue in Cornwall.

I still remember my Grandad (RIP) writing Cornish to amuse me as a child. He couldn't talk in Cornish, but could certainly make me laugh trying to attempt it.

lei.talk
03-25-2009, 02:10 AM
...we just want your sheep, k? :D
...sturdy English ones? :P

Gooding
03-25-2009, 02:40 AM
That's classic.Maybe the English sheep are sturdy for a reason,eh? And the Welsh..a little more tender...;):D:thumb001:

Arundel
03-25-2009, 05:26 AM
The Welsh Not or Welsh Note was a piece of wood, inscribed with the letters "WN", that was hung round the necks of children who spoke Welsh in some schools in the 19th century. The "not" was given to any child overheard speaking Welsh, who would pass it to a different child if overheard speaking Welsh. By the end of the day, the wearer of the "not" would be given a lashing. The idea of the "not" was to discourage pupils from speaking Welsh, at a time when English was considered by some to be the only suitable medium of instruction.

History

The use of the "not" was recorded in the 18th century; it was also commonly known as the 'cwstom', the 'Welsh stick' and the 'Welsh lead' (a lump of lead). The practice was mentioned in the 1847 Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales. Though highly critical of many aspects of Welsh culture, some of the inspectors commented on the existence of the practice of using "nots" as being arbitrary and cruel. The report did not endorse the practice. Since education in this period was neither free nor compulsory it must be assumed that parents did endorse the practice where it was used. The reports also clearly show that the vast majority of education in Welsh Wales was still conducted in Welsh.

In the later decades of the 19th century, education was compulsory but the Welsh "not" was used only in a minority of schools, and after the school boards were absorbed by the county councils following the Local Government Act 1888, instruction in Welsh in elementary schools became the norm in Welsh-speaking areas. There is no evidence that the intermediate schools, in which instruction was almost universally in English, made use of the "not".

-----------------------------------------------

This example of a 'Welsh Not' was found at Garth School, Bangor, which has since been demolished. The 'Welsh Not' was used in some schools during the eighteenth and nineteenth century in a bid to prevent pupils from speaking Welsh.

http://www.gtj.org.uk/storage/components/batch_30/GTJ16684_1.jpg


The following pages have been selected from the Log Book of the Towyn British School, Merionethshire, for the period 1863-7. This Log Book contains numerous references to the attempts of Mr Edwin Jones, the headmaster, to prevent the children from speaking Welsh. In the entry shown on this page (14 August 1863), he says that he is 'at a loss to know the best method to adopt in order to prevent the children generally from speaking Welsh'. He explains that he has decided to use a 'Welsh stick' or 'Welsh Not' in order to punish the children who are caught speaking Welsh. The 'Welsh Not' was used in some schools during the eighteenth and nineteenth century in a bid to prevent pupils from speaking Welsh. The 'Welsh Not', which usually consisted of a small piece of wood or slate inscribed with the letters 'W.N', was hung around the neck of a child who was caught speaking Welsh. At the end of the school day, the child wearing the 'Welsh Not' would be punished by the schoolteacher.

http://www.gtj.org.uk/storage/components/batch_52/GTJ17911_1.jpg


This example of a 'Welsh Not' comes from Llangernyw School, Denbighshire.

http://www.gtj.org.uk/storage/components/batch_34/GTJ16937_1.jpg


Welsh language
How horrible to try and derive the Welch of their own language. I had never heard of this before. I am of welch ancestry. Some of my ancestors the Owens/Bowens fought furiously in trying to drive them out of southern Wales.
Some of the Owens had titles and were knights. I am just now learning about my Welch ancestry, and am proud to be genetically descended from them.