Hungarians vs Poles - who has more Germanic admix?

[Satem]

There is numerous German minority in Hungary on the other hand some Polish regions were under German rule for few centuries.
Discuss

[Chris596]

Assuming my heritage, poles have more for sure. But my case may not be as relevant to the whole Hungarian population :) (I know many people who have german ancestors or even full german names)

[Jana]

Hungarians have more Germanic admixture as a group, because almost every Hungarian has NW European admixture while in Poles there is a great difference from west to east.
West Poles have more Germanic than Hungarians on average, but eastern Poles usually have none.

Hungarians are pretty uniform when it comes to Germanic admixture, from Transdanubia to Transylvania.

[Benyzero]

Hungarians have more Germanic admixture as a group, because almost every Hungarian has NW European admixture while in Poles there is a great difference from west to east.
West Poles have more Germanic than Hungarians on average, but eastern Poles usually have none.

Hungarians are pretty uniform when it comes to Germanic admixture, from Transdanubia to Transylvania.

Do you think there is german admix on the east in hungary?

[Jana]

Do you think there is german admix on the east in hungary?

Yes. It's significant even in Szeklers.

[Benyzero]

Yes. It's significant even in Szeklers.

I know about szeklers, they supposed to have some old admix, but if we talk about old admixture, there suppose to be some in poles too, Iam not sure tho. I think where is that german admixture in hungary is significant is rather the south wester and the northwestern part, where there were some hotspots of german minority in the latest centuries.

[Jana]

I know about szeklers, they supposed to have some old admix, but if we talk about old admixture, there suppose to be some in poles too, Iam not sure tho. I think where is that german admixture in hungary is significant is rather the south wester and the northwestern part, where there were some hotspots of german minority in the latest centuries.

Sorry, I should have said Germanic rather. Most of it is old, from Gepids, Goths and even conqueror tribes, who were mixed with Germanics. Than you had medieval German and Dutch immigrants to towns.
Speaking about recent Swabian admixture, it should be big only in parts of Transdanubia and Banat I think.

[Benyzero]

Sorry, I should have said Germanic rather. Most of it is old, from Gepids, Goths and even conqueror tribes, who were mixed with Germanics. Than you had medieval German and Dutch immigrants to towns.
Speaking about recent Swabian admixture, it should be big only in parts of Transdanubia and Banat I think.

Okay thats fine :D

[Chris596]

Hungarians have more Germanic admixture as a group, because almost every Hungarian has NW European admixture while in Poles there is a great difference from west to east.
West Poles have more Germanic than Hungarians on average, but eastern Poles usually have none.

Hungarians are pretty uniform when it comes to Germanic admixture, from Transdanubia to Transylvania.

I agree that it's present from Transdanubia to Transylvania. But I'm not sure about the uniformity, sometimes I can clearly tell if someone has significantly more admixture or not

[Blondie]

Hungarians by far:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_French_German.png

autosomally hungarians are closer to germans, austrians:

https://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b693085ce24af9d44fe3179401c1bda4.webp

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale

[Blondie]

Do you think there is german admix on the east in hungary?

The german migration (and assimilation) was constant since medieval age, East hungary had german villages in Alföld for example Szászberek, Újszász, Szászfa (saxon villages), but there was no such great block settlement like in West Hungary (that's why the assimilation was faster), but the german ancestry, genetic or family name is not rare it East Hungary.

[Benyzero]

The german migration (and assimilation) was constant since medieval age, East hungary had german villages in Alföld for example Szászberek, Újszász, Szászfa (saxon villages), but there was no such great block settlement like in West Hungary (that's why the assimilation was faster), but the german ancestry, genetic or family name is not rare it East Hungary.

I've actually found a german family name in my tree lately. The name Grob/Grubbe, and there is another one which I cant remember correctly right now. So it explains some of my 23andme probably. :D

[Luke35]

I've actually found a german family name in my tree lately. The name Grob/Grubbe, and there is another one which I cant remember correctly right now. So it explains some of my 23andme probably. :D

I have a name on my German side of the family, Grebe. It might be a variation of the name that you found?

[Ülev]

it's individual thing, country A can have 10%, country B 30%, but you can find purest examples in country with 10%, me think

[Jana]

G25 average for both ethnicities

Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x

86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.7988% / 0.00798832 | ADC: 0.25x

52.8 Slavic
23.8 Germanic
21.8 Balkan
1.6 Greco-Roman

[Benyzero]

I have a name on my German side of the family, Grebe. It might be a variation of the name that you found?

Perhaps. Could be

[Blondie]

I've actually found a german family name in my tree lately. The name Grob/Grubbe, and there is another one which I cant remember correctly right now. So it explains some of my 23andme probably. :D

Most common in Denmark and Germany:
https://forebears.io/surnames/grubbe

Maybe you have some danish/viking ancestry too :)

[Luke35]

Perhaps. Could be

Appears to be a different name:

https://forebears.io/surnames/grebe

[Methuselah]

G25 average for both ethnicities

Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x

86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.7988% / 0.00798832 | ADC: 0.25x

52.8 Slavic
23.8 Germanic
21.8 Balkan
1.6 Greco-Roman

What about Czechs and Romanians? How do they compare to Poles and Hungarians? Czechs are probably gonna win here i assume?

[Benyzero]

What about Czechs and Romanians? How do they compare to Poles and Hungarians? Czechs are probably gonna win here i assume?

Romanians have no to little. Czechs are pretty westernised, especially in Bohemia.

[Luke35]

What about Czechs and Romanians? How do they compare to Poles and Hungarians? Czechs are probably gonna win here i assume?

I think Czechs have more German, but also more Slavic on average than Hungarians. Hungarians have more Balkanic.

This is what I remember of Jana's analysis anyway, she can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Herr Galke]

G25 average for both ethnicities

Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x

86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.7988% / 0.00798832 | ADC: 0.25x

52.8 Slavic
23.8 Germanic
21.8 Balkan
1.6 Greco-Roman

I still don't know what any of this means.

[Jana]

What about Czechs and Romanians? How do they compare to Poles and Hungarians? Czechs are probably gonna win here i assume?

Czechs are most Germanic out of these. Romanian average doesn't score any NW Euro.

Target: Czech
Distance: 1.1885% / 0.01188460 | ADC: 0.25x

56.6 Slavic
34.2 Germanic
5.2 Balkan
2.6 Greco-Roman
1.4 Celtic

Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.0632% / 0.01063249 | ADC: 0.25x

51.2 Balkan
39.2 Slavic
9.6 Greco-Roman

[Jana]

I still don't know what any of this means.

Just a model by using ancient Slavic, Balkan, Germanic etc. samples.

[SharpFork]

Czechs are most Germanic out of these. Romanian average doesn't score any NW Euro.

Target: Czech
Distance: 1.1885% / 0.01188460 | ADC: 0.25x

56.6 Slavic
34.2 Germanic
5.2 Balkan
2.6 Greco-Roman
1.4 Celtic

Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.0632% / 0.01063249 | ADC: 0.25x

51.2 Balkan
39.2 Slavic
9.6 Greco-Roman

Germanic should really be Germanic-Celtic, it's meaningless to distinguish the 2 within the context of central-east Europe after roughly 100 AD.

[Dunai]

While in Hungary you can clearly see pretty often people who have a very Germanic look, you can't say the same in Poland, where they mostly have a Balto-Slavic look. I remember traveling from North-East Germany towards North-West Poland and was expecting many similarities in the looks department, but was surprised what a real division there is with the German-Polish border. Occasional overlap of course always exists.

[Jana]

Germanic should really be Germanic-Celtic, it's meaningless to distinguish the 2 within the context of central-east Europe after roughly 100 AD.

It's Germanic only, because it is based on medieval German sample which was fully Germanic genetically. For some reason, Hallstatt Celtic influence is weak in eastern Europe.

[Blondie]

While in Hungary you can clearly see pretty often people who have a very Germanic look, you can't say the same in Poland, where they mostly have a Balto-Slavic look. I remember traveling from North-East Germany towards North-West Poland and was expecting many similarities in the looks department, but was surprised what a real division there is with the German-Polish border. Occasional overlap of course always exists.

Yes i agree, genotype ≠ phenotype, when i have been in Czechia i saw tons of german looking people, i think czechs look more german than slavic.

[SharpFork]

Yes i agree, genotype ≠ phenotype, when i have been in Czechia i saw tons of german looking people, i think czechs look more german than slavic.

To be honest it might be because you internalize East Germans and Austrians as being "pure" German and thus Czechs would be closer to them than to the more Slavic Slovaks and Poles.

[Blondie]

you internalize East Germans and Austrians as being "pure" German

I have never said that.

[Scandal]

Czechs are most Germanic out of these. Romanian average doesn't score any NW Euro.

Target: Czech
Distance: 1.1885% / 0.01188460 | ADC: 0.25x

56.6 Slavic
34.2 Germanic
5.2 Balkan
2.6 Greco-Roman
1.4 Celtic

Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.0632% / 0.01063249 | ADC: 0.25x

51.2 Balkan
39.2 Slavic
9.6 Greco-Roman

What about Serbs, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes?

[Aspirin]

Hungarians of course, Germans are the main ethnicity with who they interacted the most through history, plus Germans was the main civilisational factor in hungarian history.

[Peterski]

I remember traveling from North-East Germany towards North-West Poland and was expecting many similarities in the looks department, but was surprised what a real division there is with the German-Polish border.

North-West Poland has mostly non-local population after WW2.

Red line shows the division between areas with mostly native population vs. areas with population replacement after WW2:

https://i.imgur.com/NOjB3pW.png

You need to go to Pomeranian Voivodeship to see mostly native North-West Poles.

For example, the most common surnames in County Puck are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puck_County

Search by surname: http://nlp.actaforte.pl:8080/Nomina/Ndistr?nazwisko=&join=on&rel=on

Search by county: http://nlp.actaforte.pl:8080/Nomina/NPowStat/GdPu.html

County Puck, Pomeranian Voivodeship:

Rank Surname Women Men Total
1. Dettlaff 484 503 987
2. Konkel 346 315 661
3. Budzisz 326 307 633
4. Kohnke 215 220 435
5. Ceynowa 217 204 421
6. Jeka 215 203 418
7. Styn 201 203 404
8. Wittbrodt 172 223 395
9. Radtke 188 203 391
10. Białk 179 210 389
11. Mudlaff 180 193 373
12. Potrykus 178 189 367
13. Bolda 196 169 365
14. Szymański 161 173 334
15. Klebba 144 146 290
16. Pieper 122 146 268
17. Kuchnowski 145 122 267
18. Ellwart 127 134 261
19. Goyke 113 127 240
20. Marzejon 119 118 237
21. Labudda 113 114 227
22. Nowak 111 110 221
23. Muża 107 113 220
24. Koss 119 100 219
26. Nadolski 116 101 217
27. Renusz 101 109 210
29. Bisewski 101 106 207
30. Drzeżdżon 105 101 206
32. Kreft 93 111 204
33. Hebel 109 94 203
35. Lessnau 93 109 202
37. Tarnowski 106 91 197
38. Felkner 93 99 192
39. Miłosz 85 102 187
40. Derc 93 92 185
41. Kwidziński 94 89 183
43. Lademann 92 90 182
44. Okoń 86 94 180
46. Karsznia 87 90 177
47. Grubba 92 84 176
48. Lieske 80 90 170
49. Wiśniewski 93 76 169
50. Schmidt 80 84 164
... and 6146 other surnames
Total population 36280 36363 72643

[Dunai]

North-West Poland has mostly non-local population after WW2.

Red line shows the division between areas with mostly native population vs. areas with population replacement after WW2:

https://i.imgur.com/NOjB3pW.png



The graphic shows pretty well that quite a lot of Poles from historic Eastern Poland have relocated to today's Western Poland (including North-West), hence why today that Balto-Slavic look is so strong there.

[Blondie]

Hungarians of course, Germans are the main ethnicity with who they interacted the most through history, plus Germans was the main civilisational factor in hungarian history.

St. Stephen's german knights and priests helped him during the civil war against Koppány's pagans and to create the christian Kingdom of Hungary but i think the latin influence was more significant than german, not just the roman laws, latin alphabet and roman catholic culture but the renaissance too. The german influence started to become significant in the 17. century when one million of catholic german migrated to Hungary after the ottoman descruction and Hungary was part of Habsburg Empire as core region alongside Wien, it was the begining of common austro-hungarian statehood and culture until the WW1.

[Methuselah]

North-West Poland has mostly non-local population after WW2.

Red line shows the division between areas with mostly native population vs. areas with population replacement after WW2:

https://i.imgur.com/NOjB3pW.png

You need to go to Pomeranian Voivodeship to see mostly native North-West Poles.

For example, the most common surnames in County Puck are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puck_County

Search by surname: http://nlp.actaforte.pl:8080/Nomina/Ndistr?nazwisko=&join=on&rel=on

Search by county: http://nlp.actaforte.pl:8080/Nomina/NPowStat/GdPu.html

County Puck, Pomeranian Voivodeship:

Rank Surname Women Men Total
1. Dettlaff 484 503 987
2. Konkel 346 315 661
3. Budzisz 326 307 633
4. Kohnke 215 220 435
5. Ceynowa 217 204 421
6. Jeka 215 203 418
7. Styn 201 203 404
8. Wittbrodt 172 223 395
9. Radtke 188 203 391
10. Białk 179 210 389
11. Mudlaff 180 193 373
12. Potrykus 178 189 367
13. Bolda 196 169 365
14. Szymański 161 173 334
15. Klebba 144 146 290
16. Pieper 122 146 268
17. Kuchnowski 145 122 267
18. Ellwart 127 134 261
19. Goyke 113 127 240
20. Marzejon 119 118 237
21. Labudda 113 114 227
22. Nowak 111 110 221
23. Muża 107 113 220
24. Koss 119 100 219
26. Nadolski 116 101 217
27. Renusz 101 109 210
29. Bisewski 101 106 207
30. Drzeżdżon 105 101 206
32. Kreft 93 111 204
33. Hebel 109 94 203
35. Lessnau 93 109 202
37. Tarnowski 106 91 197
38. Felkner 93 99 192
39. Miłosz 85 102 187
40. Derc 93 92 185
41. Kwidziński 94 89 183
43. Lademann 92 90 182
44. Okoń 86 94 180
46. Karsznia 87 90 177
47. Grubba 92 84 176
48. Lieske 80 90 170
49. Wiśniewski 93 76 169
50. Schmidt 80 84 164
... and 6146 other surnames
Total population 36280 36363 72643

How Western does Lewandowski look to you?

[Peterski]

The graphic shows pretty well that quite a lot of Poles from historic Eastern Poland have relocated to today's Western Poland (including North-West), hence why today that Balto-Slavic look is so strong there.

The Balto-Slavic is also strong among native North-Western Poles too.

For example this is Similitude Map of a Polish guy with pre-1918 ancestry from this Red Area (2nd map) at that time part of Provinz Posen:

Note that his similarity to East Germans is 80 and to Czechs only 78, because he does not have Southern European DNA that Czechs have:

https://i.imgur.com/lM3VjoS.png

All of his known ancestry is from rural areas between these two towns, which corresponds to the area I marked with red color in the map:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C4%99dzych%C3%B3d

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szamotu%C5%82y

https://i.imgur.com/74g5IVD.png

[Peterski]

^^^
And this is Similitude Map of a Masurian from southern East Prussia.

His Balto-Slavic is off the charts, just look at these >85 scores to so many populations:

https://i.imgur.com/qjQ7eSp.png

^^^
His pre-war ancestors are from Kreise Lötzen-Sensburg-Angerburg:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masurians#Population_size

[Peterski]

To be honest it might be because you internalize East Germans and Austrians as being "pure" German and thus Czechs would be closer to them than to the more Slavic Slovaks and Poles.

In Eurogenes K15/K13 Czechs tend to score between South Polish and Austrian or East German as their 1st closest population in Single Distances. I mean, if you run for example 50 Czech kit numbers, about 25 will score "South Polish" and about 25 will score "East German" or "Austrian" as their closest population.

Keep in mind that the East German reference in Eurogenes are Germans from Leipzig.

If the East German was based on samples from for example Rostock, I'm sure all Czechs would score closer to Austrians than to Rostock.

[Hajimurad]

Obviously - Hungarians because they were quite tolerant to German immigrants. They even had a German royal dynasty (Habsburg) and many of their leaders had German origin such as Lajos Kossuth (mother), Janos Kadar (father) etc. When government ordered expulsion of German population after WWII, Hungarians organized protest demonstrations against expulsion.
On contrary Poles had a strong anti-German sentiment which prevented Germanization of their country. First anti-German riots happened during Medieval Ostsiedlung (famous was in Cracow). After WWII Communists from Polish United Labour party cleansed West and North of Poland from it's German population. This is a reason why Poles remained Slavic but Magyars lost their ethnic features.

[Blondie]

many of their leaders had German origin such as Lajos Kossuth (mother), Janos Kadar (father) etc.

Non of them have german ancestry lol


This is a reason why Poles remained Slavic but Magyars lost their ethnic features.

The real reason is the magyar conquerors were not numerous, they were just a little elite (compared to locals) who created the statehood in the Carpathian Basin. Genetically thehHungarians are descedants of local population which lived here before the magyar migration happened.

[Hajimurad]

I need to clarify what I mean under "ethnic features":
- genealogical connection to original or related tribes (seven Magyar, three Khazar and various nomad tribes from Volga-Ural region).
- anthropological type (Uralid, Turanid, Pamirid).
- language (of Ugrian origin with Bulgar-Turkic influence).
- traditional culture, derived from nomads of Volga-Ural region.
Only communities on Hungarian borders (Hajduks, Csangosh, Szekely, Cuman, Jasz etc) can be heirs of original Magyar culture (even Cumans and Jasz). But none should forget about majority rural and all town populations which assimilated large number of non-Magyars (mainly Slavs and Germans). There are difference between ethnic Magyar and Hungarian citizen.

[Hajimurad]

Non of them have german ancestry lol



The real reason is the magyar conquerors were not numerous, they were just a little elite (compared to locals) who created the statehood in the Carpathian Basin. Genetically thehHungarians are descedants of local population which lived here before the magyar migration happened.
Lajos Kossuth's mother, Karolina Weber (1770–1853), was born to a Lutheran family of partial German descent
Kádár was born out of wedlock in Fiume (now: Rijeka Croatia) on 26 May 1912.He was an illegitimate son of the soldier János Krezinger and the servant maid Borbála Czermanik. Kádár's father had Bavarian German origin

[Peterski]

But also there are North-East Germans with very Balto-Slavic results, such as this person:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204874-Prussian-German-GEDmatch-results

[Dunai]

I need to clarify what I mean under "ethnic features":
- genealogical connection to original or related tribes (seven Magyar, three Khazar and various nomad tribes from Volga-Ural region).
- anthropological type (Uralid, Turanid, Pamirid).
- language (of Ugrian origin with Bulgar-Turkic influence).
- traditional culture, derived from nomads of Volga-Ural region.
Only communities on Hungarian borders (Hajduks, Csangosh, Szekely, Cuman, Jasz etc) can be heirs of original Magyar culture (even Cumans and Jasz). But none should forget about majority rural and all town populations which assimilated large number of non-Magyars (mainly Slavs and Germans). There are difference between ethnic Magyar and Hungarian citizen.

Cuman and Jász people cannot be heirs to Árpádian Magyars because they were unrelated to them, as they moved to Hungary many centuries after the Árpádians conquered the Carpathian Basin. By the time these two nomadic people arrived the Hungarian people were already a fully European society, anthropologically also European. There are many documents how alien these two people, especially Cumans, were considered inside Hungary and there were many-many conflicts between the locals and the new arrivals. Another thing to be mentioned is that in Hungarians who today consider themselves of Cuman or Jász ancestry is very little or no genetic trace left from them, since after the Ottomans conquered the areas with large Cuman and Jász population in the 16th century, these became massively depopulated, and later when the Habsburgs kicked out the Ottoman in the 18th century, they were mostly repopulated by Hungarians from Upper Hungary and Slavs from the Balkans (truth is Balkan Slavs already migrated to the Great Alföld during the Ottoman occupation). Thus the Cuman and Jász identity is just a tradition that this new population have adopted.

[Hajimurad]

Cuman and Jász people cannot be heirs to Árpádian Magyars because they were unrelated to them, as they moved to Hungary many centuries after the Árpádians conquered the Carpathian Basin. By the time these two nomadic people arrived the Hungarian people were already a fully European society, anthropologically also European. There are many documents how alien these two people, especially Cumans, were considered inside Hungary and there were many-many conflicts between the locals and the new arrivals. Another thing to be mentioned is that in Hungarians who today consider themselves of Cuman or Jász ancestry is very little or no genetic trace left from them, since after the Ottomans conquered the areas with large Cuman and Jász population in the 16th century, these became massively depopulated, and later when the Habsburgs kicked out the Ottoman in the 18th century, they were mostly repopulated by Hungarians from Upper Hungary and Slavs from the Balkans. Thus the Cuman and Jász identity is just a tradition that this new population have adopted.
Interesting. Also I have a question: of what origin are Hajduks of Debrecen? From which places came their ancestors?

[Dunai]

Interesting. Also I have a question: of what origin are Hajduks of Debrecen? From which places came their ancestors?

The Hajdú or Hajduk were a Hungarian peasant infantry from the Great Alföld area, originating around the early 16th century, with the great peasant uprising of Dózsa György (1514). After the Ottoman occupation of large parts of the Great Alföld, the northern parts (Partium) have remained a conflict zone between Royal Hungary (Upper Hungary), under Habsburg rule and Transylvania (Eastern Hungary), and in this buffer zone the Hajduks have played a very significant role as mercenaries for either side. They were kinda similar to the Kozaks in organization.

[Peterski]

In the Early Middle Ages, Poland was basically in the middle of Slavic world, there was a vast Slavic territory to the west of Poland:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/35/00/1e35007fc8ca362a90da949c187e6847.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jBweyng.jpg

[Dunai]

Double

[Jana]

What about Serbs, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes?

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.1471% / 0.01147061 | ADC: 0.25x

51.0 Slavic
37.6 Balkan
11.4 Greco-Roman

Target: Slovakian
Distance: 1.9145% / 0.01914454 | ADC: 0.25x

84.2 Slavic
10.8 Balkan
4.2 Germanic
0.8 Baltic

Target: Croatian
Distance: 0.8581% / 0.00858078 | ADC: 0.25x

63.4 Slavic
16.8 Balkan
10.2 Germanic
9.6 Greco-Roman

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 1.0270% / 0.01026978 | ADC: 0.25x

64.2 Slavic
20.0 Balkan
6.4 Celtic
5.4 Germanic
4.0 Greco-Roman


Keep in mind samples are from capital cities usually. Croatian average is from Zagreb which is central european in every sense, on nation-wide scale Croats are obviously not more Germanic and less Balkan than Slovenians.

[Jana]

In Eurogenes K15/K13 Czechs tend to score between South Polish and Austrian or East German as their 1st closest population in Single Distances. I mean, if you run for example 50 Czech kit numbers, about 25 will score "South Polish" and about 25 will score "East German" or "Austrian" as their closest population.

Keep in mind that the East German reference in Eurogenes are Germans from Leipzig.

If the East German was based on samples from for example Rostock, I'm sure all Czechs would score closer to Austrians than to Rostock.

Many Hungarians have their European ancestry closest to Czechs (Slavic + south German). Stears for example has most accurate modeling like this:

[1,] "81.6 % Czech + 18.4 % Turk_Central_Black_Sea" "1.3645"

If he didn't have 20% of exotic ancestry (Turkic, west Asian, Iranic), he would plot like average Czech. But not all Hungarians have steppe input like he does.
My Hungarian friend is very close to western Slavs and has no Asian ancestry at all.

[Blondie]

Cuman and Jász people cannot be heirs to Árpádian Magyars because they were unrelated to them, as they moved to Hungary many centuries after the Árpádians conquered the Carpathian Basin. By the time these two nomadic people arrived the Hungarian people were already a fully European society, anthropologically also European. There are many documents how alien these two people, especially Cumans, were considered inside Hungary and there were many-many conflicts between the locals and the new arrivals. Another thing to be mentioned is that in Hungarians who today consider themselves of Cuman or Jász ancestry is very little or no genetic trace left from them, since after the Ottomans conquered the areas with large Cuman and Jász population in the 16th century, these became massively depopulated, and later when the Habsburgs kicked out the Ottoman in the 18th century, they were mostly repopulated by Hungarians from Upper Hungary and Slavs from the Balkans (truth is Balkan Slavs already migrated to the Great Alföld during the Ottoman occupation). Thus the Cuman and Jász identity is just a tradition that this new population have adopted.

Yes, that's why the cuman and jassic languages became extinct a long time ago, because these newcomers didn't speak the language, cumans doesn't exist in Hungary but some hungarian larping cuman until the present day.

[SharpFork]

It's Germanic only, because it is based on medieval German sample which was fully Germanic genetically. For some reason, Hallstatt Celtic influence is weak in eastern Europe.
I mean we don't really have enough continental Celtic samples anyway, regardless how do Austrians and East Germans end up?

[Jana]

I mean we don't really have enough continental Celtic samples anyway, regardless how do Austrians and East Germans end up?

So far we only have continental Celtic samples from Czech Republic and Poland. Hopefully we get some Gaulish samples from France soon.

Target: German_East
Distance: 1.1977% / 0.01197665 | ADC: 0.25x

42.6 Slavic
40.4 Germanic
8.6 Celtic
7.6 Balkan
0.8 Baltic

Target: Austrian
Distance: 0.8938% / 0.00893755 | ADC: 0.25x

35.2 Slavic
29.4 Germanic
26.6 Balkan
8.8 Celtic

Full thread here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316531-Balto-Slavic-scale

[Jana]

^^^^btw, model was designed for Eastern Europeans specifically, to measure Balto-Slavic input. It may not work as well for others. For example, some of Paleo-Balkan samples have NW European/Bell Beaker like input.
So Balkan becomes higher than is reality in central Europeans and Celto-Germanic is reduced as a consequence of that.

[Peterski]

Target: German_East
Distance: 1.1977% / 0.01197665 | ADC: 0.25x

42.6 Slavic
40.4 Germanic
8.6 Celtic
7.6 Balkan
0.8 Baltic

Target: Austrian
Distance: 0.8938% / 0.00893755 | ADC: 0.25x

35.2 Slavic
29.4 Germanic
26.6 Balkan
8.8 Celtic

Full thread here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316531-Balto-Slavic-scale

Keep in mind the East German sample is 100% from Leipzig, this is why it has a "Balkan" shift.

By the way I've been saying for years that East Germans are on average 40-50% Slavic with a range from 25% (1/4) to 75% (3/4) and everyone was calling me "anti-German" for saying that, LOL. Some apologies would be appreciated. :)

[Jana]

Keep in mind the East German sample is 100% from Leipzig, this is why it has a "Balkan" shift.

By the way I've been saying for years that East Germans are on average 40-50% Slavic with a range from 25% (1/4) to 75% (3/4) and everyone was calling me "anti-German" for saying that, LOL. Some apologies would be appreciated. :)

Isn't such low Germanic in Austrians more suprising? Czechs get more than them. I don't find that realistic at all.Some of G25 averages are not very good.

[Peterski]

BTW, Leipzig Germans have 27,1% of R1a haplogroup (n=144) and this corresponds to 42,6% Slavic autosomally in that model.

For comparison % of R1a in samples from some other East German cities:

Dresden - 32,6%
Rostock - 32,4%
Halle an der Saale - 30,3%
Berlin - 23,7%
Magdeburg - 21,0%
Greifswald - 19,2%


Isn't such low Germanic in Austrians more suprising?

Maybe some of that "Balkan" is really Celtic.

BTW, can you run French from different regions using the same model? I wonder how much "Balkan" and "Celtic" will they score.

=====

I mean that it comes from Celts, who already had it. Not necessarily "Proto-Celtic" of course.

[Jana]

BTW, Leipzig Germans have 27,1% of R1a haplogroup (n=144) and this corresponds to 42,6% Slavic autosomally in that model.

For comparison % of R1a in samples from some other East German cities:

Dresden - 32,6%
Rostock - 32,4%
Halle an der Saale - 30,3%
Berlin - 23,7%
Magdeburg - 21,0%
Greifswald - 19,2%



Maybe some of that "Balkan" is really Celtic.

BTW, can you run French from different regions using the same model? I wonder how much "Balkan" and "Celtic" will they score.

=====

I mean that it comes from Celts, who already had it. Not necessarily "Proto-Celtic" of course.

Yes, but it is not designed for western Europeans. I didn't use any ancient British Isles samples for example, because they didn't contribute to eastern Europeans. So in this model Brits or Bretons will end up majority Germanic due to lack of such samples, and that's obviously completely false.

Central France, should be very Gaulish

Target: French_Auvergne
Distance: 1.2096% / 0.01209562 | ADC: 0.25x

44.4 Balkan
40.4 Celtic
15.2 Germanic

Target: French_Nord
Distance: 0.9281% / 0.00928101 | ADC: 0.25x

48.6 Germanic
33.8 Balkan
17.6 Celtic

Target: French_Paris
Distance: 1.5933% / 0.01593269 | ADC: 0.25x

42.6 Germanic
37.4 Balkan
20.0 Celtic

Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 0.7112% / 0.00711180 | ADC: 0.25x

50.0 Germanic
37.8 Balkan
12.2 Celtic

Interesting, Alsace is more Germanic than east Germans.

But, when I remove Beaker influenced Balkanites and leave only Iron Age Bulgaria, we get better model for western Euros. Still not quite right. I didn't design this calc for them.

Target: French_Auvergne
Distance: 1.5893% / 0.01589280 | ADC: 0.25x

59.4 Celtic
23.6 Germanic
10.6 Balkan
6.4 Greco-Roman

[Peterski]

Yes, but it is not designed for western Europeans. I didn't use any ancient British Isles samples for example, because they didn't contribute to eastern Europeans. So in this model Brits or Bretons will end up majority Germanic die to lack of such samples, and that's obviously completely false.

Central France, should be very Gaulish

Target: French_Auvergne
Distance: 1.2096% / 0.01209562 | ADC: 0.25x

44.4 Balkan
40.4 Celtic
15.2 Germanic

Target: French_Nord
Distance: 0.9281% / 0.00928101 | ADC: 0.25x

48.6 Germanic
33.8 Balkan
17.6 Celtic

Target: French_Paris
Distance: 1.5933% / 0.01593269 | ADC: 0.25x

42.6 Germanic
37.4 Balkan
20.0 Celtic

Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 0.7112% / 0.00711180 | ADC: 0.25x

50.0 Germanic
37.8 Balkan
12.2 Celtic

Interesting, Alsace is more Germanic than east Germans.

But, when I remove Beaker influenced Balkanites and leave only Iron Age Bulgaria, we get better model for western Euros. Still not quite right. I didn't design this calc for them.

Target: French_Auvergne
Distance: 1.5893% / 0.01589280 | ADC: 0.25x

59.4 Celtic
23.6 Germanic
10.6 Balkan
6.4 Greco-Roman

Yes, if you add Insular Celts (either ancient or modern) to that model, they will surely absorb away some of "Germanic" from Northern and North-Central French results.

[Jana]

If you add Insular Celts (either ancient or modern) to that model, they will surely absorb some of Germanic from Northern and North-Central French results.

Please, try my calculator. I am curious in results of native western Poles. If you have their coordinates, post them if you don't mind.

http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/Feiichy%20Slavic%20G25%20ancient%20calculator.htm

[Scandal]

Interesting. Also I have a question: of what origin are Hajduks of Debrecen? From which places came their ancestors?
Hajdús are just hungarian by origin

Dunai is right, it's a weird idea to consider Cumans and Jász as more Hungarian than Hungarian themselves, those ethnic groups arrived to Hungary when Hungarian state and identity was established for centuries. Cumans and Jász became hungarians too eventually. Today they don't exist as separate ethnic groups.

[SharpFork]

^^^^btw, model was designed for Eastern Europeans specifically, to measure Balto-Slavic input. It may not work as well for others. For example, some of Paleo-Balkan samples have NW European/Bell Beaker like input.
So Balkan becomes higher than is reality in central Europeans and Celto-Germanic is reduced as a consequence of that.

Wouldn't Beaker Balkan absorb Celtic in Central-East Europeans too? Especially in Czechs.

[Cumansky]

What dumb question, Hungarians are mostly Germanic

Poles have inherited some Germans in the West but Poles core population has nothing to do with Germans, Poles went to war and defeated Nazi Germany

[Cumansky]

Hajdús are just hungarian by origin

Dunai is right, it's a weird idea to consider Cumans and Jász as more Hungarian than Hungarian themselves, those ethnic groups arrived to Hungary when Hungarian state and identity was established for centuries. Cumans and Jász became hungarians too eventually. Today they don't exist as separate ethnic groups.

They are the only ones who keep close to medieval bloodlines!

The people that look like Germans are Germans, and not Hungarians!

[Satem]

What dumb question, Hungarians are mostly Germanic

Poles have inherited some Germans in the West but Poles core population has nothing to do with Germans, Poles went to war and defeated Nazi Germany

It's off topic

[Voskos]

Genetic:Poles.
Culture:Hungary.

[Cumansky]

It's off topic

To jest dokładnie temat, dlaczego zastrzelimy kogoś w głowę, jeśli jest to nasza krew???

[Cumansky]

They are the only ones who keep close to medieval bloodlines!

The people that look like Germans are Germans, and not Hungarians!

For example Feiichy and her family of rats are perfect example of majority Germans pretending to majority Hungarian

But during the war they ancestors support Nazi Germany, now 80s later is cool to be ethnic when 80 years ago it was not considered "cool"

[Cumansky]

@Sipols

Jakie jest porównanie Banderowców, żyli w naszym kraju przez 600 lat, a przedtem nasza krew mieszała się przez wieki

Niemcy nie są naszą krwią

[Cumansky]

@Dunai

Why are you PM me you trash

[Cumansky]

Genetic:Poles.
Culture:Hungary.

The real Hungarians are South Poles

Is ok you didn't know that, I am telling you now

[Satem]

@Sipols

Jakie jest porównanie Banderowców, żyli w naszym kraju przez 600 lat, a przedtem nasza krew mieszała się przez wieki

Niemcy nie są naszą krwią

Ano to że więzi krwi nic nie znaczą w trudnych sytuacjach, wtedy każdy sobie rzepkę skrobie

[Satem]

The real Hungarians are South Poles

Is ok you didn't know that, I am telling you now

Please show some proofs

[Ülev]

Please show some proofs

Węgierska Górka - Hungarian Hill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%99gierska_G%C3%B3rka

:rolleyes:

[Cumansky]

Węgierska Górka - Hungarian Hill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%99gierska_G%C3%B3rka

:rolleyes:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?302394-Next-Update-23andme

[Cumansky]

Ok "Hungarians" show me regions

[17571imre]

Many Hungarians have their European ancestry closest to Czechs (Slavic + south German). Stears for example has most accurate modeling like this:

[1,] "81.6 % Czech + 18.4 % Turk_Central_Black_Sea" "1.3645"

If he didn't have 20% of exotic ancestry (Turkic, west Asian, Iranic), he would plot like average Czech. But not all Hungarians have steppe input like he does.
My Hungarian friend is very close to western Slavs and has no Asian ancestry at all.

my mothers 2way k13 results Hungarian:


[,1] [,2]
[1,] "40.5 % East_Finnish + 59.5 % Veneto" "2.6582"
[2,] "45.4 % East_Finnish + 54.6 % Liguria" "2.7547"
[3,] "40.2 % Erzya + 59.8 % Swiss_Italian" "2.7848"
[4,] "47.4 % Finnish + 52.6 % Emilia" "2.8166"
[5,] "48.2 % Finnish + 51.8 % Tuscany" "2.8562"
[6,] "47.2 % Finnish + 52.8 % Liguria" "2.8657"
[7,] "37 % East_Finnish + 63 % Friuli-VG" "2.8885"
[8,] "54.8 % Southwest_Finnish + 45.2 % Greek_Western-Thrace" "2.912"
[9,] "43 % Kargopol_Russian + 57 % Swiss_Italian" "2.9249"
[10,] "52.8 % Finnish + 47.2 % FrenchCorsica" "2.9722"
[11,] "45.6 % East_Finnish + 54.4 % Emilia" "2.9818"
[12,] "45 % East_Finnish + 55 % Lombardy" "3.0301"
[13,] "42 % North-Swedish + 58 % Macedonian_East" "3.0637"
[14,] "48.8 % Albanian + 51.2 % Southwest_Finnish" "3.1146"
[15,] "49.2 % North-Swedish + 50.8 % Macedonian_Southwest" "3.1151"
[16,] "65.5 % Trentino + 34.5 % RU_Pinega" "3.1332"
[17,] "46.1 % Estonian + 53.9 % Liguria" "3.1427"
[18,] "36.6 % East_Finnish + 63.4 % Trentino" "3.2035"
[19,] "46.9 % Southwest_Russian + 53.1 % Swiss_Italian" "3.2198"
[20,] "46.3 % Estonian + 53.7 % Emilia" "3.2337"
[21,] "31.9 % North-Swedish + 68.1 % Bulgarian_Pleven" "3.2383"
[22,] "42.1 % Finnish + 57.9 % Veneto" "3.2545"
[23,] "50.8 % Finnish + 49.2 % Tuscan" "3.2616"
[24,] "61.3 % Trentino + 38.7 % Kargopol_Russian" "3.3516"
[25,] "39.6 % North-Swedish + 60.4 % Romanian_Muntenia" "3.3554"
[26,] "43.8 % Lazio + 56.2 % Southwest_Finnish" "3.3906"
[27,] "32 % Swedish + 68 % Bulgarian_Pleven" "3.3924"
[28,] "41.7 % Southwest_Finnish + 58.3 % Macedonian_East" "3.3993"
[29,] "65.3 % Friuli-VG + 34.7 % RU_Pinega" "3.4001"
[30,] "45.2 % North-Swedish + 54.8 % Macedonian_North" "3.4085"
[31,] "46.8 % Finnish + 53.2 % Lombardy" "3.4176"
[32,] "46.4 % East_Finnish + 53.6 % Tuscany" "3.4422"
[33,] "46.2 % Romagna + 53.8 % Southwest_Finnish" "3.4518"
[34,] "47.1 % Estonian + 52.9 % Tuscany" "3.4618"
[35,] "49.7 % Estonian + 50.3 % Tuscan" "3.472"
[36,] "49.9 % Finnish + 50.1 % Romagna" "3.4819"
[37,] "61.8 % Veneto + 38.2 % RU_Pinega" "3.4974"
[38,] "37.5 % Estonian + 62.5 % Friuli-VG" "3.5081"
[39,] "38.5 % Finnish + 61.5 % Friuli-VG" "3.5091"
[40,] "54.1 % Swiss_Italian + 45.9 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "3.5221"
[41,] "53.3 % Swiss-Italian + 46.7 % Southwest_Russian" "3.5247"
[42,] "59.5 % Southwest_Finnish + 40.5 % West_Sicilian" "3.53"
[43,] "40 % Erzya + 60 % Swiss-Italian" "3.5335"
[44,] "41.1 % Estonian + 58.9 % Veneto" "3.5453"
[45,] "81.3 % Hungarian_East + 18.7 % FrenchCorsica" "3.5597"
[46,] "44 % Marche + 56 % Southwest_Finnish" "3.5694"
[47,] "57.2 % Swiss-Italian + 42.8 % Kargopol_Russian" "3.6122"
[48,] "70.2 % Hungarian_Transdanubia + 29.8 % Bulgarian_Pleven" "3.6194"
[49,] "38.5 % RU_Pinega + 61.5 % Swiss_Italian" "3.6392"
[50,] "52.3 % Finnish + 47.7 % Lazio" "3.6454"

[Abriekman]

G25 average for both ethnicities

Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x

86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.7988% / 0.00798832 | ADC: 0.25x

52.8 Slavic
23.8 Germanic
21.8 Balkan
1.6 Greco-Roman

What samples exactly are you using here?

[Chris596]

Poles, because I have 0% :lol00001:

[Benyzero]

Iam vely gelman

[Satem]

Poles, because I have 0% :lol00001:

I am sure I also have 0%, it can be on par mate

[Token]

Depends on the region.

[Satem]

Depends on the region.

Can you tell something more?

[Token]

Can you tell something more?

West Poland is more Germanic than East Hungary, West Hungary is more Germanic than East Poland. The West of both countries are about the same in Germanicness.

[Jana]

West Poland is more Germanic than East Hungary, West Hungary is more Germanic than East Poland. The West of both countries are about the same in Germanicness.

However eastern Hungarians are more Germanic than eastern Poles.

[Abriekman]

West Poland is more Germanic than East Hungary, West Hungary is more Germanic than East Poland. The West of both countries are about the same in Germanicness.

Central Poland is more Germanic, than west, because now Western part of Poland is inhabited by East Poles, who were moved from Lviv and other Kresy Wschodnie regions

[Rethel]

The oldest chronicles say:

Hungarians came from Huns.
Poles came from Vandals.

Result: Poles are closer.
Case closed.
:p

[Jana]

What samples exactly are you using here?

Those made by Davidski. K13 has much more detailed averages, so we should use ancient K13 instead.

[Jana]

Central Poland is more Germanic, than west, because now Western part of Poland is inhabited by East Poles, who were moved from Lviv and other Kresy Wschodnie regions

Western Poles from Greater Poland are highly Germanic, they are native to the region. Maybe that's central Poland for you?

[Token]

Central Poland is more Germanic, than west, because now Western part of Poland is inhabited by East Poles, who were moved from Lviv and other Kresy Wschodnie regions

Nonsense, West Poles are still very similar to East Germans and Germanic Y-DNA peaks in West Poland.

[Jana]

Poles, because I have 0% :lol00001:

Your results aren't typical for eastern Hungarian since you plot like full Serb + tiny bit Asian.
But Universe also has little to none Germanic admix. He has lot of Slovak ancestry though, and Slovaks are very Slavic.

[Abriekman]

Western Poles from Greater Poland are highly Germanic, they are native to the region. Maybe that's central Poland for you?

For me it is central. I consider Western Poland only regions which were connected to country after WW2
Poles from Masovian Voivodeship has also high Germanic Admixture from Goths. Maybe Poles from South-Eastern Poland, like Krakow, Lublin have less Germanic. I live in Krakow and I see very stereotypical Slavic faces here, Czechs are half Slavic,but they look very Germanic for me, so Lesser Poles have very little Germanic probably

[Not a Cop]

Nonsense, West Poles are still very similar to East Germans and Germanic Y-DNA peaks in West Poland.

Do you have any examples? Even Peterski is like what? 20% Germanic?

[Rethel]

Lesser Poles have very little Germanic probably

Eeee tam. Major cities in Lesser Poland were german. Krakow was a german speaking city
until XVI century. Whole south from New Market to Przemyśl were colonized by Germans.
So I don't think that there will be small amount of Germans. % could be surrprisingly high.

[Abriekman]

Nonsense, West Poles are still very similar to East Germans and Germanic Y-DNA peaks in West Poland.

In Poznan most likely

[Jana]

For me it is central. I consider Western Poland only regions which were connected to country after WW2
Poles from Masovian Voivodeship has also high Germanic Admixture from Goths. Maybe Poles from South-Eastern Poland, like Krakow, Lublin have less Germanic. I live in Krakow and I see very stereotypical Slavic faces here, Czechs are half Slavic,but they look very Germanic for me, so Lesser Poles have very little Germanic probably

Masovians are very north-eastern shifted from what I saw, with Baltic admixture.

[Ülev]

Western Poles from Greater Poland are highly Germanic, they are native to the region. Maybe that's central Poland for you?

plus:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?297316-Bambrzy-300th-anniversary-of-arrival

[Dunai]

According to K13 both nations score about 30.5% North Atlantic, which is quite a Germanic sub-clade, so in my opinion there is not a real difference between the two, who are closer to Germans.

[Jana]

Correction: this average isn't Baltic shifted, looks normal Slavic

Distance to: Masurian

2.79606867 Polish
5.06032608 Cossacks_Kuban
5.22737028 South_Polish
5.54744986 Ukrainian
5.64457261 Sorb_Lusatia
6.38417575 Russian_Smolensk
6.55061066 Ukrainian_Lviv
6.73033432 Estonian_Polish
7.09212944 Belorussian
7.94241147 Russian
8.53807941 Southwest_Russian
8.81942175 Estonian
9.08837169 Czech
9.32670896 Ukrainian_Belgorod
9.53536072 Slovak
9.74446510 Southwest_Finnish
10.43410274 Finnish
10.79890735 Lithuanian
10.84085329 Kargopol_Russian
11.46645106 Hungarian_Northern
12.07446479 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
12.15043209 East_Finnish
12.16757577 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
12.34488153 German_East
12.97698732 Slovenian

[Rethel]

Pole, Hungarian are two brothers,
and their mother was Germaness... :p

[Abriekman]

Masovians are very north-eastern shifted from what I saw, with Baltic admixture.

I mean Poles from Masovian Voivodeship. Mazurians are in Polish region near Kaliningrad oblast and Lithuania to my knowledge


The Masovians or Mazovians (Polish: Mazowszanie [ˈmazɔvˈʂaɲɛ]) are a Lechitic tribe or an ethnic group associated with the region of Mazovia. They were referenced by Nestor the Chronicler in the 11th century.

According to the knowledge based on facts about Germanic migrations in the Oder-Vistula basins and informations about Gutones it is highly probable that medieval Masovians took not only with slavic component but was formed on a similar basis as in case of Warnabi tribe east of Elbe

[Luke35]

G25 average for both ethnicities

Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x

86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.7988% / 0.00798832 | ADC: 0.25x

52.8 Slavic
23.8 Germanic
21.8 Balkan
1.6 Greco-Roman

^^^I think that when considering the two countries as a whole, not dividing regionally, that this is probably an accurate representation of Germanic admix.

[Benyzero]

Pole, Hungarian are two brothers,
and their mother was Germaness... :p

Yo mom is fat

[Luke35]

Yo mom is fat

In the US, the best mama insults, when I was growing up were, "Yo mama ugly and she dress you funny". Also, "Your mama wears combat boots."

[Benyzero]

In the US, the best mama insults, when I was growing up were, "Yo mama ugly and she dress you funny". Also, "Your mama wears combat boots."

:D :D

[oszkar07]

I would imagine West Poles and Transdanubian Hungarians probably both have similiar amounts of Germans.
For other Hungarians and Poles maybe Hungarians on avg has a bit more thats just guessing I could be wrong about that.

[rero]

I would imagine West Poles and Transdanubian Hungarians probably both have similiar amounts of Germans.
For other Hungarians and Poles maybe Hungarians on avg has a bit more thats just guessing I could be wrong about that.

Only if by West Poles you mean Greater Poland. The reloacted Poles in the westernmost provinces don't look Germanic at all. They look like they could have sprung right out of Eastern Poland/Lithuania. It isn't even debatable because the differences to Eastern Germans are obvious (even though Eastern Germans are themselves Slavic-admixed). To see more German admixture, you have to travel to either Silesia or certain parts of Central Poland. What I actually want to say with this: If we go by today's borders, it is confusing to label Western Poles as more Germanic. The native Western Poles today live in central Poland.

[Rethel]

They look like they could have sprung right out of Eastern Poland/Lithuania

When I was in Breslau this year there was this russian vibe on the street.
One face after another. Also the organization of the city and the modern
urban esthetic is more russian, than polish. Seems you are in Poland...but
the feeling which you have is... Ukraine... And even partial XIXth century
german design doesn't help either... just a different world, very confusing.

[Jana]

I mean Poles from Masovian Voivodeship. Mazurians are in Polish region near Kaliningrad oblast and Lithuania to my knowledge


The Masovians or Mazovians (Polish: Mazowszanie [ˈmazɔvˈʂaɲɛ]) are a Lechitic tribe or an ethnic group associated with the region of Mazovia. They were referenced by Nestor the Chronicler in the 11th century.

According to the knowledge based on facts about Germanic migrations in the Oder-Vistula basins and informations about Gutones it is highly probable that medieval Masovians took not only with slavic component but was formed on a similar basis as in case of Warnabi tribe east of Elbe

Oh, had no idea. Thanks for info! I meant Masovians too. From results I saw from there, they don't have lot of Germanic.

[Jana]

Only if by West Poles you mean Greater Poland. The reloacted Poles in the westernmost provinces don't look Germanic at all. They look like they could have sprung right out of Eastern Poland/Lithuania. It isn't even debatable because the differences to Eastern Germans are obvious (even though Eastern Germans are themselves Slavic-admixed). To see more German admixture, you have to travel to either Silesia or certain parts of Central Poland. What I actually want to say with this: If we go by today's borders, it is confusing to label Western Poles as more Germanic. The native Western Poles today live in central Poland.

To me lot of overlap between West Baltid (Polish) and Faelid (German) phenotype. Both brick faced blonds. IMO, Poles don't look that eastern, they overlap east Germans a lot.
Actually, maybe Poles do look eastern but it's Germans that don't look fully western. Germany stands out in western Europe with ton of west Slavic passing people, I guess that makes them central Euro looking.

I've never been to Poland, but in Hungary are lot of German looking locals.

[rero]

To me lot of overlap between West Baltid (Polish) and Faelid (German) phenotype. Both brick faced blonds. IMO, Poles don't look that eastern, they overlap east Germans a lot.
Actually, maybe Poles do look eastern but it's Germans that don't look fully western. Germany stands out in western Europe with ton of west Slavic passing people, I guess that makes them central Euro looking.

I've never been to Poland, but in Hungary are lot of German looking locals.

Well, I can't speak for the whole of Poland but there is clearly a difference between Poles and East Germans across the border. I live about 30 km from the border and often have been there. If you'd come here, you'd immediately see that. As I said, it's not even debatable. No matter what pictures you saw on the internet, this is the way it is. If I compare:

1. Poles have on average wider/rounder faces and higher cheekbones
2. They have a slightly different eye shape than East Germans
3. Especially some of their women (not all) have very light skin. I havent seen this skin type even once here on the German side. It's a distinguishing feature compared to Eastern Germans.

These are my observations. I'm not really yet good at phenotype classifications, but these are my observations.

I can't say anything about Hungary as I've never been there and met too few to compare.

[Leto]

Germany has tons of full or partial Eastern Europeans and Balkaners. Walking through a German city to see "real Germanics" is a terribly bad idea.
Everything that has the label "Slavic" attached to it is almost automatically deemed "Eastern" on this forum. That's why I never care about the "taxonomy" shit.

[Jana]

Germany has tons of full or partial Eastern Europeans and Balkaners. Walking through a German city to see "real Germanics" is a terribly bad idea.
Everything that has the label "Slavic" attached to it is almost automatically deemed "Eastern" on this forum. That's why I never care about the "taxonomy" shit.

Nobody is discussing foreigners here, they are irrelevant. Fact it millions of ethnic Germans have eastern European/Slavic admixture and it shows.

[Leto]

Nobody is discussing foreigners here, they are irrelevant. Fact it millions of ethnic Germans have eastern European/Slavic admixture and it shows.
I know they do. I've been actually posting various German Gedmatches over the past few weeks. I think they got even more Eastern after WW2 due to the mass expulsions of Sudeten, Silesian and Prussian Germans and more recently repatriation of Germans from Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. You can add mass migration of Eastern Germans to West Germany in search of a better life and better paid jobs after 1990.

[Leto]

Eastern Germans would score like this. Still not very close to Poles. I think Bohemian Czechs would be much closer to Saxons and Brandenburgers than Poles.


Sachsen, Brandenburg, Preußen

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 38.32
2 Baltic 32.51
3 West_Med 13.34
4 West_Asian 8.64
5 East_Med 5.04
6 South_Asian 2.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 3.07
2 Austrian 4.48
3 Hungarian 7.26
4 North_German 9.53
5 West_German 10.65
6 North_Swedish 10.79
7 Swedish 10.8
8 Croatian 11.08
9 South_Polish 11.21
10 South_Dutch 11.4
11 Danish 12.08
12 North_Dutch 12.45
13 Norwegian 12.81
14 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.01
15 Moldavian 13.3
16 Ukrainian 13.8
17 Southeast_English 13.93
18 Orcadian 14.02
19 Polish 14.09
20 Southwest_Finnish 14.12

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.3% Croatian + 47.7% Danish @ 2.72
2 53.8% Croatian + 46.2% Norwegian @ 2.72
3 54.1% North_German + 45.9% Croatian @ 2.74
4 88.4% East_German + 11.6% Swedish @ 2.74
5 97% East_German + 3% Tabassaran @ 2.75
6 97.6% East_German + 2.4% Kalash @ 2.75
7 87.1% East_German + 12.9% North_German @ 2.75
8 97.9% East_German + 2.1% Balochi @ 2.78
9 57.5% Croatian + 42.5% Irish @ 2.8
10 98.1% East_German + 1.9% Brahui @ 2.8
11 90.9% East_German + 9.1% Norwegian @ 2.8
12 97.4% East_German + 2.6% Lezgin @ 2.82
13 97.6% East_German + 2.4% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.82
14 97.9% East_German + 2.1% Punjabi_Jat @ 2.83
15 97.5% East_German + 2.5% Chechen @ 2.84
16 91.1% East_German + 8.9% Danish @ 2.84
17 53.1% Croatian + 46.9% North_Dutch @ 2.85
18 98.1% East_German + 1.9% Burusho @ 2.87
19 90.6% East_German + 9.4% North_Swedish @ 2.87
20 98.3% East_German + 1.7% Sindhi @ 2.87


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 27.95
2 North_Sea 23.72
3 Baltic 20.19
4 Eastern_Euro 10.38
5 West_Med 8.48
6 West_Asian 7.79
7 South_Asian 1.15
8 East_Med 0.32

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 7.59
2 Austrian 8.35
3 North_German 10.61
4 Hungarian 11.18
5 South_Dutch 11.44
6 Croatian 12.32
7 Southwest_Finnish 12.84
8 South_Polish 13.48
9 Danish 14.09
10 North_Dutch 14.35
11 Irish 14.36
12 Polish 14.36
13 Southwest_English 14.37
14 Southeast_English 14.38
15 West_German 14.81
16 French 14.96
17 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.13
18 West_Scottish 15.34
19 Moldavian 15.36
20 Serbian 15.47

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.3% South_Dutch + 38.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 6.55
2 53.7% Southwest_English + 46.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 6.58
3 55.1% Croatian + 44.9% Irish @ 6.64
4 71.7% Austrian + 28.3% Irish @ 6.67
5 62.2% Austrian + 37.8% North_German @ 6.68
6 55.8% North_German + 44.2% Croatian @ 6.78
7 53.8% Southeast_English + 46.2% Russian_Smolensk @ 6.78
8 88.9% East_German + 11.1% French_Basque @ 6.84
9 74.2% Austrian + 25.8% West_Scottish @ 6.86
10 64.6% North_German + 35.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 6.87
11 53.9% Irish + 46.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 6.89
12 64.8% South_Dutch + 35.2% Belorussian @ 6.91
13 69.1% South_Dutch + 30.9% Lithuanian @ 6.93
14 57.4% Croatian + 42.6% West_Scottish @ 6.99
15 73.3% Austrian + 26.7% North_Dutch @ 7
16 65.2% South_Dutch + 34.8% Estonian_Polish @ 7
17 69.6% South_Polish + 30.4% French_Basque @ 7
18 73.7% Austrian + 26.3% Southeast_English @ 7.06
19 78.2% Austrian + 21.8% Orcadian @ 7.07
20 73.9% Austrian + 26.1% Southwest_English @ 7.09


Gedrosia 7.26 Pct
Siberian 0.13 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 30.30 Pct
North_European 46.88 Pct
South_Asian 0.19 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 1.20 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 14.05 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

Distance to: K.S.
4.10555721 Slovenian
5.23445317 German
5.61030302 Hungarians
5.82927954 Slovak
7.89955695 Croat
8.60863520 Sorb_Lusatia
9.33596272 PL_GreaterPoland
9.44115459 Bosnian
9.63836086 Bavarian_German
10.29774733 MD_North

Target: K.S.
Distance: 2.0099% / 2.00993715 | ADC: 0.5x
57.4 Slovenian
42.0 German
0.6 Dargin

Target: K.S.
Distance: 1.3990% / 1.39896004 | ADC: 0.25x
52.6 German
39.2 Slovenian
4.6 Hungarians
3.6 Dargin

[Dirdepo]

Hungarians, Romanians, Serbs, Bosniaks (Muslim), Croats, other Yugoslavs/Balkaners, Czechoslovaks even many Russians, all have one thing in common. They are more German than the second least Germanic slavophone speaking population the South Polish, and the the least Germanic Slavophone population the Ukrainians, particularly the Cossacks :bowlol:

If you know better we got real statistics I can pull it up quick if I get bored and come back to this low iq thread that gave me a headache from reading 3-4 dumb posts. But in reality many of you are German dickriders to this day, we were never that, we were always opposed to that, and those "new era" Poles I don't speak for those they got their own world views that has nothing to do with aristocracy man

[Dirdepo]

102737

[Polak]

According to K36, I am 78% similar to East Germans genetically, and I'm Polish as well as Ukrainian. Phenotypes don't mean much. But go off on how Eastern Poles are I guess.

EDIT:
Well, I can't speak for the whole of Poland but there is clearly a difference between Poles and East Germans across the border. I live about 30 km from the border and often have been there. If you'd come here, you'd immediately see that. As I said, it's not even debatable. No matter what pictures you saw on the internet, this is the way it is. If I compare:

1. Poles have on average wider/rounder faces and higher cheekbones
2. They have a slightly different eye shape than East Germans
3. Especially some of their women (not all) have very light skin. I havent seen this skin type even once here on the German side. It's a distinguishing feature compared to Eastern Germans.

These are my observations. I'm not really yet good at phenotype classifications, but these are my observations.

I can't say anything about Hungary as I've never been there and met too few to compare.

[Sandman]

In my place of residence (south-eastern Poland), there are some German-sounding surnames. In my work, I have a buddy with an undoubtedly German-sounding surname, and I also know a woman in my work who says that her grandmother was a native German. This woman has a Scandinavian appearance. Platinum blonde hair and pale blue eyes.

[Jana]

According to K36, I am 78% similar to East Germans genetically, and I'm Polish as well as Ukrainian. Phenotypes don't mean much. But go off on how Eastern Poles are I guess.

What is your problem exactly? I see in your profile you are mixed with also Czech and German. My point was Germans and Poles overlap but not because Poles are very western but because Germans are eastern compared to other west Europeans takes as whole.

East German average is closer to Czechs than to English or Dutch.

[Polak]

What is your problem exactly? I see in your profile you are mixed with also Czech and German. My point was Germans and Poles overlap but not because Poles are very western but because Germans are eastern compared to other west Europeans takes as whole.

East German average is closer to Czechs than to English or Dutch.

I don't have a problem, I wasn't even replying to you, calm down lmao

The person I was replying to deleted their comment. I was not replying to you whatsoever. I don't have a problem with what you wrote, I agree with it.

[rero]

According to K36, I am 78% similar to East Germans genetically, and I'm Polish as well as Ukrainian. Phenotypes don't mean much. But go off on how Eastern Poles are I guess.

EDIT:

You seem kind of triggered? Let me be clear: I have no agenda or interest in potraying Poles As Eastern or something, I just wrote down my observations. And the genetics confirm it: Poles ON AVERAGE are not really close genetically to Eastern Germans, and this in line with my phenotypic observations from the border region. Still, there is of course overlap, how could I deny that. What I'm actually trying to make clear: Despite the overlap, Eastern German and Polish populations are distinguishable genetically and phenotypically.

By the way: It has been mentioned in several scientific papers that the German-Polish border is one of the "hardest" in whole Europe, meaning the overlap is relatively small compared to other border regions. So I'm really not saying anything new here if you delved into the subject earlier, I'm just confirming it by my own observations. If anyone is interested, I can gladly post the papers.

[rero]

In my place of residence (south-eastern Poland), there are some German-sounding surnames. In my work, I have a buddy with an undoubtedly German-sounding surname, and I also know a woman in my work who says that her grandmother was a native German. This woman has a Scandinavian appearance. Platinum blonde hair and pale blue eyes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walddeutsche

[Polak]

You seem kind of triggered? Let me be clear: I have no agenda or interest in potraying Poles As Eastern or something, I just wrote down my observations. And the genetics confirm it: Poles ON AVERAGE are not really close genetically to Eastern Germans, and this in line with my phenotypic observations from the border region. Still, there is of course overlap, how could I deny that. What I'm actually trying to make clear: Despite the overlap, Eastern German and Polish populations are distinguishable genetically and phenotypically.

By the way: It has been mentioned in several scientific papers that the German-Polish border is one of the "hardest" in whole Europe, meaning the overlap is relatively small compared to other border regions. So I'm really not saying anything new here if you delved into the subject earlier, I'm just confirming it by my own observations. If anyone is interested, I can gladly post the papers.

I care so much about your comment that I didn't even reply to the correct person.

Phenotypes have very little to do with genetics. If anything at all.
Reading racist 19th century journals does not an anthropologist out of you make; when my father lived and worked in Hamburg in the 80s Germans approached and spoke to him in German, because they thought he was a local. My father is a Polish-Ukrainian-Tatar mix :D

I wouldn't call 78% genetic Similarity that hard personally, I am more similar to East Germans than to Balts, South Slavs, Hungarians, Slovenians, Romanians and most Russians.

[rero]

I care so much about your comment that I didn't even reply to the correct person.

Phenotypes have very little to do with genetics. If anything at all.
Reading racist 19th century journals does not an anthropologist out of you make; when my father lived and worked in Hamburg in the 80s Germans approached and spoke to him in German, because they thought he was a local. My father is a Polish-Ukrainian-Tatar mix :D

I wouldn't call 78% genetic Similarity that hard personally, I am more similar to East Germans than to Balts, South Slavs, Hungarians, Slovenians, Romanians and most Russians.

Good for you. And interesting results you have there. Your post has nothing to with the topic though or with what I said. Who would care about individual results, I'm interested in averages and scientific approach.

I offered to show the scientific papers, what has this to with "racist 19th century" journals? I mean up-to-date scientific papers where international scientists come to the conclusion that there is little overlap across the border.

Sorry but generally you are not sticking to the point (like saying "I wouldn't call 78% genetic Similarity that hard personally...", who spoke about you? It's about the border region).

[Leto]

Phenotypes have very little to do with genetics. If anything at all.

That is wrong though. On a group level they absolutely do have a lot to do with genetics. Otherwise Italians would look like Germans and Bulgarians would look like Russians on average. I would even go as far as to say a hypothetical 90% European and 10% Sub-Saharan or East Asian population would differ in terms of looks from a 100% European population. Not in all cases but again, on a group level.

[rero]

That is wrong though. On a group level they absolutely do have a lot to do with genetics. Otherwise Italians would look like Germans and Bulgarians would look like Russians on average. I would even go as far as to say a hypothetical 90% European and 10% Sub-Saharan or East Asian population would differ in terms of looks from a 100% European population. Not in all cases but again, on a group level.

Of course. There is no doubt that genetics besides other factors like environment are involved in the difference of looks. Or does anyone think my descendants in a few generations will look like Eskimos if I move to the Arctic now? Not gonna happen.

[Roy]

To me lot of overlap between West Baltid (Polish) and Faelid (German) phenotype. Both brick faced blonds. IMO, Poles don't look that eastern, they overlap east Germans a lot.
Actually, maybe Poles do look eastern but it's Germans that don't look fully western. Germany stands out in western Europe with ton of west Slavic passing people, I guess that makes them central Euro looking.

I've never been to Poland, but in Hungary are lot of German looking locals.

To me plenty of Germans stand out like sore thumbs in Polish landscape, and one month ago I've seen a couple that I thought would start speaking German but I heard Dutch instead! So to me Poles very rarely look like those, albeit it's mostly older Germans that look alien - especially women, younger ones somehow look closer to Poles. The difference has always been very palpable whenever crossing the border, and that was in East Germany so they should in theory be far more similar already but it was not the case. It's like they are made out of a different clay entirely despite their quite substantial amount of Slavic ancestry.

[rero]

To me plenty of Germans stand out like sore thumbs in Polish landscape, and one month ago I've seen a couple that I thought would start speaking German but I heard Dutch instead! So to me Poles very rarely look like those, albeit it's mostly older Germans that look alien - especially women, younger ones somehow look closer to Poles. The difference has always been very palpable whenever crossing the border, and that was in East Germany so they should in theory be far more similar already but it was not the case. It's like they are made out of a different clay generally.

I agree it is palpable. Everyone who crosses the border can see it clearly. For some reason, the supposed Slavicness of Eastern Germans is overstated by some (yes, one can argue they're more Slavic/Eastern looking than West Germans/Dutch (of course also genetically). But comparing them to Poles?? No way).

[Roy]

I agree it is palpable. Everyone who crosses the border can see it clearly. For some reason, the supposed Slavicness of Eastern Germans is overstated by some (yes, one can argue they're more Slavic/Eastern looking than West Germans/Dutch (of course also genetically). But comparing them to Poles?? No way).

But let's not exaggerate either, it's not like Germans are as different as Finns or Albanians are vs Polish people.

[Roy]

Hungarians by far:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_French_German.png

autosomally hungarians are closer to germans, austrians:

https://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b693085ce24af9d44fe3179401c1bda4.webp

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale

This is not really representative for Poland as there are mostly samples from Mazovia + Northeastern Poland in this study here iirc so hardly anything close to average for 'Poles'. But people parrot those and scientifists sometimes too (as in trying to pass Poles from Estonia as typical Polish people not stating their real origin clearly). That having said all available credible evidence suggests that Hungarians have more Germanic input than Poles do (albeit there are abundant outliers in both).

[Roy]

While in Hungary you can clearly see pretty often people who have a very Germanic look, you can't say the same in Poland, where they mostly have a Balto-Slavic look. I remember traveling from North-East Germany towards North-West Poland and was expecting many similarities in the looks department, but was surprised what a real division there is with the German-Polish border. Occasional overlap of course always exists.

The thing is that NW-people in Zachodniopomorskie do have a plenty of ancestry from what is now Ukraine and Lithuania, and often actual ethnic Ukrainian admixture (there is also Lemko / Rusyn minority there), if you want me to specify some place where is there more people with some Germanic-neutral look than Wielkopolska / Greater Poland is more appropriate.

Here you have some youth sport teams from Greater Poland / Wielkopolska - historical Western Poland, I bet that they are more western looking than those people you come across in the north-west.

https://wzunihokeja.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=136:fina-ii-mistrzostw-wielkopolski-w-unihokeja-chopcow-szko-ponadgimnazjalnych-organizowanych-w-ramach-licealiady-20102011&catid=49:licealiada-20102011&Itemid=86

[Abriekman]

The thing is that NW-people in Zachodniopomorskie do have a plenty of ancestry from what is now Ukraine and Lithuania, and often actual ethnic Ukrainian admixture (there is also Lemko / Rusyn minority there), if you want me to specify some place where is there more people with some Germanic-neutral look than Wielkopolska / Greater Poland is more appropriate.

My Polish ancestors inhabited modern Ukraine for 300-400 years ( Podolia ) and I do not really have Ukrainian admixture. 23andme gave me mainly Polish regions ( Warsaw, Krakow, Lublin ) and with only Lviv ( I do not consider it Ukrainian since a lot of Poles there were ).
On Global 25 I am not eastern-shifted considering I am also about 18% Russian, sometimes I am also getting 10% German on G25 and I got 7% Great Britain on FTDNA

( My Polish ancestors were not replaced after WW2, because they were in Podolia region, that was not Poland during 20 century )

[Dunai]

I agree it is palpable. Everyone who crosses the border can see it clearly. For some reason, the supposed Slavicness of Eastern Germans is overstated by some (yes, one can argue they're more Slavic/Eastern looking than West Germans/Dutch (of course also genetically). But comparing them to Poles?? No way).

I can confirm this, even though it's based on my personal anecdotal experience, so don't take it as proof, but the East German-West Polish region is a very strong border between phenotypes. On both sides of the border you can see often people of Sub-Nordid looks, but they are from two different spectrum: Germans are of the Northwestern, while Poles are of the Northeastern type. Not to mention the fashion style of people is also very different between the two regions, so altogether they left an impression on a visitor like me, that the two people are quite separated.

[Blondie]

I agree it is palpable. Everyone who crosses the border can see it clearly. For some reason, the supposed Slavicness of Eastern Germans is overstated by some (yes, one can argue they're more Slavic/Eastern looking than West Germans/Dutch (of course also genetically). But comparing them to Poles?? No way).

Yes such pan slavic propagandists like Peterski.