Finally Turkic (and Mongolic) samples from Mongolia

[Yaglakar]

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078v1

Celestial Türks:

NOM001 M U7a3a R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93)
TSB001 M H14b J1a (J-CTS5368)
UGU001 M D2 J2a (J-L559; J-M410)
ULI002 M B4c1a2a J2a (J-L559; J-M410)
ZAA002 M C4a2a1 C2b1a1b1 (C-F3830)
ZAA004 M D4b1a2a1 C2b1a1b1 (C-F3830)
ZAA007 F D4l2 -

Orkhon Uighurs:

OLN001.A F D4 -
OLN001.B M B5b1a Q1a1 (Q-F1215; Q-F1096)
OLN002 F T1a1 -
OLN003 M T1a1 R1b1a2 (R-PF6505; R-M269)
OLN004 F H4a1a1a -
OLN005 M H6b R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN007 M D4 C2e1a1a (C-F3864; C-M407)
OLN008 F D4i -
OLN009 F J1b1b1 -
OLN010 M G3a3 R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN011 M B5b2a R1b1a2a2 (R-CTS1078)
OLN012 F D4j10 -
ZAA001 F A24 -

Xiongnu:

SKT007 M C4 Q1a2a1c (Q-L334; Q-L330) early Xiongnu

JAG001 M F1b1f - earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT002 M G2a1e R1b (R-M343) earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT004 F U2e1a1 - earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT005 M F1b1f R1b1 (R-M415; R-P25_1) earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT006 M G2a1e R1 (R-P236; R-M173) earlyXiongnu_rest

AST001 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT001 F U5a1i - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT003 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT008 M H Q1a2a1c (Q-L334; Q-L330) earlyXiongnu_west
SKT009 M I1a R1a1a1b (R-Z647; R-Z645) earlyXiongnu_west
SKT010 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT012 M C4a1a4a J2a1h2 (J-L25) earlyXiongnu_west

BRL002 F HV6 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR001 F T2b - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR002 M U2e1 E1b1b1a1b2 (E-V22; E-L677) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR003 M J2b1a2a R1a1a1b (R-Z647; R-Z645) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR004 F G2a5 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
DUU001 F D4b1a2a1 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
HUD001 F K1a19 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
NAI001 M K1a12a1a J2a1h2 (J-L25) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
NAI002 / NAI003 M C4a2c1 R1a1a1b1 (R-Z283) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
TMI001 F J2b1a2a - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU005 M U4a1 R1a1a1b2a2a (R-Z2123) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU006 M Z1a J1 (J-M267) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU010 M - R1a1a1b2a2a (R-Z2123) lateXiongnu_sarmatian

ATS001 F C4a1a - lateXiongnu_han
BAM001 F D4j3 - lateXiongnu_han
BRU001 M D5b1b2 J1a2b (J-P58) lateXiongnu_han
EME002 F B5a2a1b - lateXiongnu_han
SON001 M D4 NO (NO-M2308; NO-M2313) lateXiongnu_han
TUH001 M B5a2a1a C2b1b1 (C-M86) lateXiongnu_han
TUH002 M B5a2a1a J2a (J-M410) lateXiongnu_han
YUR001 M D5a2a1 N1 (N-L735) lateXiongnu_han

Khitans:

ULA001 M Y1a J2a2 (J-L581) Khitan
ZAA003 F F2a - Khitan
ZAA005 M D4c1b1 J2a (J-L212; J-M410) Khitan

[Bosniensis]

No I2a1 there must be some kind of mistake....

[Kaspias]

I had been waiting for it!

[Yaglakar]

https://i.ibb.co/hCp3xf2/1.png
https://i.ibb.co/W2X1Hny/2.png
https://i.ibb.co/59MS2T3/3.png
https://i.ibb.co/SytsNF8/4.png
https://i.ibb.co/3Mjk6Cp/5.png
https://i.ibb.co/dmxwhtT/6.png
https://i.ibb.co/GHghG4x/7.png

[Voskos]

Thanks for posting, interesting study.

https://snipboard.io/Hg9lbN.jpg
https://snipboard.io/g69rIU.jpg

[Bosniensis]

Whoever is J2, R1a, R1b, Q, E1b is a Turan, end of story.

True Europeans are only I2a1b PH908 (I am not biased)

[Yaglakar]

One more Tukue Turk was added:

M F1c1a1 N1c2 (N-L666) Türk

https://yfull.com/tree/N-L666/

[axlredneck]

One more Tukue Turk was added:

M F1c1a1 N1c2 (N-L666) Türk

https://yfull.com/tree/N-L666/

He's a Chinese soldier.

[Chris596]

Whoever is J2, R1a, R1b, Q, E1b is a Turan, end of story.

True Europeans are only I2a1b PH908 (I am not biased)

What about Z? Z3 was observed in numerous european populations as well.

[Ion Basescul]

Whoever is J2, R1a, R1b, Q, E1b is a Turan, end of story.

True Europeans are only I2a1b PH908 (I am not biased)

Great observation and fully agreed. (neither am I)

[Root]

Whoever is J2, R1a, R1b, Q, E1b is a Turan, end of story.

True Europeans are only I2a1b PH908 (I am not biased)



E1b doesn't belong to the Turanic club, and I1 is also a true European, just saying

[eatensemn]

Whoever is J2, R1a, R1b, Q, E1b is a Turan, end of story.)End of the "J2 is middle-eastern" as well?

[eatensemn]

More caucasoid fathers and more mongoloid mothers, expected.

[Mehmet Udegey]

https://img1.picmix.com/output/pic/normal/9/7/8/2/5022879_41452.gif

[Daos777]

How the fuck did E get to mongoria

[Kmakkmak]

Mongolia have a lot of J2a. it is interesting.

[Black Wolf]

A very interesting study although unfortunately some of the samples may have been mixed up. Quoting a user from Antrhogenica.

''Alexey Kovalev of Russian Academy of Sciences says Jeong et al did not ask for permission to use certain samples and that some of the attributions are inaccurate.

KUR001 = AT_635 = I6361 (2618-2487 BC, but questionable date?): incorrectly listed as Afanasievo, this is a secondary burial in a Chemurchek barrow; Kovalev thinks a group of mixed Chemurchek-East Kazakhstan culture. Wang et al has correct info, grouped as Mongolia_EBA_1_Ulgii.

SBG001 = AT_960 (1436-1284 BCE): incorrectly listed as Munkhkhairkhan culture. "Construction of this kurgan and burial custom is wery similar to Begazy-Dandybai culture (Late Andronovo) of neighbouring Kazakhstan."

ULI001 = AT_676 = I6363 (1214-1058 BCE): incorrectly listed as DSKC; should be Mongun-Taiga LBA. Again correctly listed in Wang et al.

ULI003 = AT_680 (1196-1011 BCE): incorrectly listed as Baitag culture. In fact "...burial on the former surface in stone cist on the back in stretched position. Newly discovered Baitag culture characterized by burials in small pits in position with knees up. This kurgan belong to same cultural group like ULZ001 (AT_674)...."

ULI004 = AT_672: this really belongs to Baitag culture. (Too low quality anyway).

ULZ001 = AT_674 = I6362 (1008-856 BCE): incorrectly listed as from Sukhbaatar aimag, but from Khovd aimag. Seems to be correct in Wang et al (Mongolia_LBA_5_CenterWest).

Looks like the information for corresponding samples in Wang et al is correct (hopefully they also got permission!). Well, both are still preprints.''

[Kmakkmak]

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078v1

Celestial Türks:

NOM001 M U7a3a R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93)
TSB001 M H14b J1a (J-CTS5368)
UGU001 M D2 J2a (J-L559; J-M410)
ULI002 M B4c1a2a J2a (J-L559; J-M410)
ZAA002 M C4a2a1 C2b1a1b1 (C-F3830)
ZAA004 M D4b1a2a1 C2b1a1b1 (C-F3830)
ZAA007 F D4l2 -

Orkhon Uighurs:

OLN001.A F D4 -
OLN001.B M B5b1a Q1a1 (Q-F1215; Q-F1096)
OLN002 F T1a1 -
OLN003 M T1a1 R1b1a2 (R-PF6505; R-M269)
OLN004 F H4a1a1a -
OLN005 M H6b R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN007 M D4 C2e1a1a (C-F3864; C-M407)
OLN008 F D4i -
OLN009 F J1b1b1 -
OLN010 M G3a3 R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN011 M B5b2a R1b1a2a2 (R-CTS1078)
OLN012 F D4j10 -
ZAA001 F A24 -

Xiongnu:

SKT007 M C4 Q1a2a1c (Q-L334; Q-L330) early Xiongnu

JAG001 M F1b1f - earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT002 M G2a1e R1b (R-M343) earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT004 F U2e1a1 - earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT005 M F1b1f R1b1 (R-M415; R-P25_1) earlyXiongnu_rest
SKT006 M G2a1e R1 (R-P236; R-M173) earlyXiongnu_rest

AST001 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT001 F U5a1i - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT003 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT008 M H Q1a2a1c (Q-L334; Q-L330) earlyXiongnu_west
SKT009 M I1a R1a1a1b (R-Z647; R-Z645) earlyXiongnu_west
SKT010 F I1a - earlyXiongnu_west
SKT012 M C4a1a4a J2a1h2 (J-L25) earlyXiongnu_west

BRL002 F HV6 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR001 F T2b - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR002 M U2e1 E1b1b1a1b2 (E-V22; E-L677) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR003 M J2b1a2a R1a1a1b (R-Z647; R-Z645) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
BUR004 F G2a5 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
DUU001 F D4b1a2a1 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
HUD001 F K1a19 - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
NAI001 M K1a12a1a J2a1h2 (J-L25) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
NAI002 / NAI003 M C4a2c1 R1a1a1b1 (R-Z283) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
TMI001 F J2b1a2a - lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU005 M U4a1 R1a1a1b2a2a (R-Z2123) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU006 M Z1a J1 (J-M267) lateXiongnu_sarmatian
UGU010 M - R1a1a1b2a2a (R-Z2123) lateXiongnu_sarmatian

ATS001 F C4a1a - lateXiongnu_han
BAM001 F D4j3 - lateXiongnu_han
BRU001 M D5b1b2 J1a2b (J-P58) lateXiongnu_han
EME002 F B5a2a1b - lateXiongnu_han
SON001 M D4 NO (NO-M2308; NO-M2313) lateXiongnu_han
TUH001 M B5a2a1a C2b1b1 (C-M86) lateXiongnu_han
TUH002 M B5a2a1a J2a (J-M410) lateXiongnu_han
YUR001 M D5a2a1 N1 (N-L735) lateXiongnu_han

Khitans:

ULA001 M Y1a J2a2 (J-L581) Khitan
ZAA003 F F2a - Khitan
ZAA005 M D4c1b1 J2a (J-L212; J-M410) Khitan

Which Burials in above is Common or Royal?

[L3mon J3lly]

More caucasoid fathers and more mongoloid mothers, expected.

The original Turks/Xiongnu/etc were always primarily the offspring of Caucasoid males with Caucasoid females and Mongoloid females.

[Pater Patota]

The original Turks/Xiongnu/etc were always primarily the offspring of Caucasoid males with Caucasoid females and Mongoloid females.

True.Turkics are offsprings of J2, R1a, R1b Caucasoids males with Mongoloid women.

[Kmakkmak]

True.Turkics are offsprings of J2, R1a, R1b Caucasoids males with Mongoloid women.

Turkic people have all Y dna in the world. They are most blended. Turkic is Turkic there is no more.

[Chelubey]

It seems that Sogdians were J-rich people.
Here is one of the samples of Uyghurs (they are documented mixed with Sogdians).

http://s020.radikal.ru/i717/1602/ee/dd9e911fa72e.jpg

K - R1b having specific Asian subclade .
Uyghurs are J-rich champions among Central Asian Turkic people.
Just Turkish people have more numbers of hgs J.
The Hgs of Mongol-Iranian mix Hazara.

http://s019.radikal.ru/i613/1602/6b/9f55265510d0.jpg

For comparison, the hgs of Sibirian Turkic peoples(without documented mixing with Iranians) and Mongols .

http://s016.radikal.ru/i335/1106/5e/dabc385a30a4.jpg

All Turkic peoples who are documented mixed with Iranians are not very R1a-rich, but have many hgs J and South Asian hgs.

[Kmakkmak]

It seems that Sogdians were J-rich people.
Here is one of the samples of Uyghurs (they are documented mixed with Sogdians).

http://s020.radikal.ru/i717/1602/ee/dd9e911fa72e.jpg

K - R1b having specific Asian subclade .
Uyghurs are J-rich champions among Central Asian Turkic people.
Just Turkish people have more numbers of hgs J.
The Hgs of Mongol-Iranian mix Hazara.

http://s019.radikal.ru/i613/1602/6b/9f55265510d0.jpg

For comparison, the hgs of Sibirian Turkic peoples(without documented mixing with Iranians) and Mongols .

http://s016.radikal.ru/i335/1106/5e/dabc385a30a4.jpg

All Turkic peoples who are documented mixed with Iranians are not very R1a-rich, but have many hgs J and South Asian hgs.

J is iranized. it is derived from BMAC or other non-iranic cultures.

[Kmakkmak]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

In 2018, Narasimhan and co-authors analyzed BMAC skeletons from the Bronze Age sites of Bustan, Dzharkutan, Gonur Tepe, and Sapalli Tepe. The male specimens belonged to haplogroup E1b1a (1/18), E1b1b (1/18), G (2/18), J* (2/18), J1 (1/18), J2 (4/18), L (2/18), R* (1/18), R1b (1/18), R2 (2/18), and T (1/18).[24]

Most of this clades is iranized local.

[Yaglakar]

Chelubey, how is your bogus info relevant to the topic? What do you mean by 'documented to be mixed' when great majority of Turkic groups did not even possess any form of writing, not even mentioning documentation/bureaucracy. Не пойман - не вор? :) Sogdians were always mentioned in symbiosis with Celestial Turks and Orkhon Uighurs. Large Sogdian communities were present in Mongolia and northern China. The fact that they were documented by Uighur bureaucracy later in Xinjiang does not mean they were not present among other groups who did not possess any form of writing. Likewise, the results you posted are from a single area and do not reflect reality.

https://i.ibb.co/9vT56MC/Uyghurs-1.png
https://i.ibb.co/zPLdNZn/Uyghurs-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/8s5Nr35/Uyghurs-3.png
https://i.ibb.co/4msy1sn/Uyghurs-4.png

The more interesting question is why are Mongolic Khitan individuals j2a, or why do Celestial Turks have j2a. To me the data confirms my longtime suspicion that first Türks were not Turkic (which is ironic) or not fully Turkic.

https://i.ibb.co/J7fPP6z/Turks.png

[Leto]

The more interesting question is why are Mongolic Khitan individuals j2a, or why do Celestial Turks have j2a. To me the data confirms my longtime suspicion that first Türks were not Turkic (which is ironic) or not fully Turkic.

What does that mean? The first Turk(ic)s not being Turkic. What would they have been then?

[Black Wolf]

Chelubey, how is your bogus info relevant to the topic? What do you mean by 'documented to be mixed' when great majority of Turkic groups did not even possess any form of writing, not even mentioning documentation/bureaucracy. Не пойман - не вор? :) Sogdians were always mentioned in symbiosis with Celestial Turks and Orkhon Uighurs. Large Sogdian communities were present in Mongolia and northern China. The fact that they were documented by Uighur bureaucracy later in Xinjiang does not mean they were not present among other groups who did not possess any form of writing. Likewise, the results you posted are from a single area and do not reflect reality.

https://i.ibb.co/9vT56MC/Uyghurs-1.png
https://i.ibb.co/zPLdNZn/Uyghurs-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/8s5Nr35/Uyghurs-3.png
https://i.ibb.co/4msy1sn/Uyghurs-4.png

The more interesting question is why are Mongolic Khitan individuals j2a, or why do Celestial Turks have j2a. To me the data confirms my longtime suspicion that first Türks were not Turkic (which is ironic) or not fully Turkic.

https://i.ibb.co/J7fPP6z/Turks.png

Do you know of any details about the cemeteries and burials of the J2a Xiongnu, Türk or Khitan samples from this paper?

[Mejgusu]

The most interseting haplogroup is in my opinion j2. I think its native in central eurasia, although it didnt orginate from there. Very fascinating.

[Black Wolf]

The most interseting haplogroup is in my opinion j2. I think its native in central eurasia, although it didnt orginate from there. Very fascinating.

I agree...I am biased though of course since I am J2 myself lol. It is unfortunate that the burial descriptions of the samples in this paper are terrible though.

[Zoro]

What does that mean? The first Turk(ic)s not being Turkic. What would they have been then?


I think he means that the original inhabitants in the area were Iranic Saka/Scythians which were later assimilated by Turkics moving in from the east

[Mejgusu]

I agree...I am biased though of course since I am J2 myself lol. It is unfortunate that the burial descriptions of the samples in this paper are terrible though.

I would say that eaurasians have that haplogroup from slave trade or stealing men from specific area, but there are too many founds of that haplogroup and many founds in different periods.

[Leto]

I think he means that the original inhabitants in the area were Iranic Saka/Scythians which were later assimilated by Turkics moving in from the east
That might have been the case. West Eurasian ancestry in ancient Turkics should have been from Indo-Europeans.

[Mejgusu]

I think he means that the original inhabitants in the area were Iranic Saka/Scythians which were later assimilated by Turkics moving in from the east


That might have been the case. West Eurasian ancestry in ancient Turkics should have been from Indo-Europeans.

From another thread:Central eurasian states were always polyetnical. Undisputed scythian upper class spoke (and maybe were) iranic, but they wer a lot of other steppe people. The same holds true for later germinate turkic states.

[Kaspias]

What is the definition of Turkic? Spoken Altai language or the admixtures Turks carry? Turks are descendants of Botai which can be modeled like 80% Ugric and 20% Iranic, probably during BA(or before) these people mixed with Altaian and Yeniseian tribes formed the proto-Turks. Later there was no assimilation of Iranic tribes like most people believe which can affect all Turkic world. This only occurred in southern parts such as Karluks and during the Oghuz migration. As opposite, instead of the addition of West Eurasian elements to Turkic form, some extra East Eurasian and C haplogroup introduced with Turks thanks to common federations with Mongols and Mongol invasion.

These West Eurasian haplogroups were already present among Turks since the beginning, and Turks have never been Mongolian like. As for Scythians, Turks were Scythian's themselves in the East. The Turkic form already was present before IA, how Scythians can be the ancestor of Proto-Turks?

If we are going to claim some haplogroup for Proto-Turks it would be R, N, J, G for their Uralic/Ugric part and probably Q, C for Altai/Yenisei part. There cannot be only one haplogroup which attributed to Proto-Turks. Altai gave the language, but culture and a big chunk of genetic admixture come from Botai.

[Leto]

What is the definition of Turkic? Spoken Altai language or the admixtures Turks carry? Turks are descendants of Botai which can be modeled like 80% Ugric and 20% Iranic, probably during BA(or before) these people mixed with Altaian and Yeniseian tribes formed the proto-Turks. Later there was no assimilation of Iranic tribes like most people believe which can affect all Turkic world. This only occurred in southern parts such as Karluks and during the Oghuz migration. As opposite, instead of the addition of West Eurasian elements to Turkic form, some extra East Eurasian and C haplogroup introduced with Turks thanks to common federations with Mongols and Mongol invasion.

These West Eurasian haplogroups were already present among Turks since the beginning, and Turks have never been Mongolian like. As for Scythians, Turks were Scythian's themselves in the East. The Turkic form already was present before IA, how Scythians can be the ancestor of Proto-Turks?

If we are going to claim some haplogroup for Proto-Turks it would be R, N, J, G for their Uralic/Ugric part and probably Q, C for Altai/Yenisei part. There cannot be only one haplogroup which attributed to Proto-Turks. Altai gave the language, but culture and a big chunk of genetic admixture come from Botai.
Well, Indo-Europeans are said to have gone as far east as Krasnoyarsk and Mongolia. Do you think they had little to no impact on the ancient Turkics?

[Freeroostah]

Cheers to my E1b Xiongnu bro

[Zoro]

As for Scythians, Turks were Scythian's themselves in the East. The Turkic form already was present before IA, how Scythians can be the ancestor of Proto-Turks?
.

I agree with Some of your but not this one. How can turks be R1a and G2 C. Asian Scythians and Sarmatians themselves when they were in C. Asia 2500 years ago and they spoke Iranic. I think it’s well established that Turkic languages and Turkics moved into those areas around 1500 years ago from Altai area.

I’m not saying it what is a violent assimilation but somehow these C Asian Scythians and Sarmatians got assimilated into the Turkic federations along with their R1a and other IE or Iranic haplogroups and there was a switch from Iranic languages to Turkic languages in central Asia

Peaceful assimilations have happened many times in the past usually because the assimilated group is usually outnumbered so they ally themselves with the majority group to gain more power and acceptance

Case in point most of the Kurds that migrated to Iranian Balochistan 500 years ago assimilated into the baloch by intermarriage to gain more power and now identify as Baloch and speak balochi. Similar situation with C Asian Scythians and Sarmatians

[SharpFork]

Peaceful assimilations have happened many times in the past usually because the assimilated group is usually outnumbered so they ally themselves with the majority group to gain more power and acceptance

Case in point most of the Kurds that migrated to Iranian Balochistan 500 years ago assimilated into the baloch by intermarriage to gain more power and now identify as Baloch and speak balochi. Similar situation with C Asian Scythians and Sarmatians
Interestingly Central Asian Scythians/Sakas didn't assimilate at all when they conquered Seleucid Persia, for centuries until the Islamic expansion they maintained their separated identity and lineages even under Sassanid Persian control.

[PaleoEuropean]

No I2a1 there must be some kind of mistake....

The royal lineage. Not common among peasant samples like these.

[Chelubey]

Chelubey, how is your bogus info
What is it? bogus in English means fake. I presented scientific data (pictures are signed). There is not much data on Uyghurs. Here is the site:
https://historic.forum2x2.ru/t32-topic
Two samples show J-rich Uighurs, one - (n = 66, lol) J-poor Uighurs . Do you knowingly use wrong terminology or is it just bad English or is it just a polemical method?


What do you mean by 'documented to be mixed'
Documented = not hypothetical, not fancy.

[Chelubey]

What does that mean? The first Turk(ic)s not being Turkic. What would they have been then?
Obviously this phrase of Yaglakar does not make sense. The data are not what Yaglakar wanted. I expect personal hypothesis-discovery of Yaglakar: The first Turkic peoples did not speak Turkic ! Or : Turkic peoples borrowed their language from Sogdians!

[Chelubey]

Well, Indo-Europeans are said to have gone as far east as Krasnoyarsk and Mongolia. Do you think they had little to no impact on the ancient Turkics?

OK.
The theory that Scythians and Sarmatians were Turkic-speaking is not a fiction of Shaman or my fiction. This is a theory from the 19th century. As I understand it, most European scientists, including Russian, adhered to this theory in those days. I can quote Russian scientists.
Are there any facts to support this hypothesis? Yes they are, and even linguistic one.The Armenian author of 5th century refers to documents of another author of the 2nd century where Bulgars were mentioned .Modern scholars consider this link invalid due to the fact that those document (of 2nd century) not survived.
But there is an interesting map of the Roman geographer Ptolemy of the 2nd century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy
On this map at Ukraine territory there is a people called "Hun". Historians believe that these are not real fake Huns because according to archeology at that time Sarmatian tribes lived there.
But the most interesting thing is that Ural River on this map is designated as Daik(os). Turkic name of this river is Jaik(tatar Dzhaik, bashkir iaik).
Dzhaik in Tatar language means spilling, flooding (the river very strongly overflows in spring ).
In Greek language there is no adequate sound corresponding to Turkic affricate "dzh" and Ptolemy called it just Daik(os).
This etymology complies with all formal scientific criterias, since all sound correspondences are explained.
Gerard Clauson rejects this etymology for chronological reasons: in the second century the Sarmatians-Iranians lived in the Urals, not the Huns-Turkic, therefore this name of the river cannot be Turkic.
This viewpoint is mentioned in this article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_River


Etymology
The river was called Δάϊκος (Daïkos) by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD.Yulian Kulakovsky reads this as Turkic "Jajyk" or "Яик" and on this basis identifies the Huns as Turkic speakers. However, Gerard Clauson disputes that the name could be of Turkic origin as early as the 2nd century, and instead attributes it to Sarmatian origin.The name Яйыҡ (Yayıq) is currently used in the Bashkir language and Жайық (Zhayıq) in Kazakhstan. In later European texts it is sometimes mentioned as Rhymnus fluvius[23] and in the Russian chronicle of 1140 as Yaik.[24] The river was renamed Ural in the Russian language in 1775, by Catherine II of Russia.

[Yaglakar]

What does that mean? The first Turk(ic)s not being Turkic. What would they have been then?

In historical context term Turkic applies to all Turkic groups, term Türk applies to a specific group of Turkic peoples who primarily lived in Altai and Mongolia but based on their legends did not originate in the aforementioned regions. The very ethnonym itself is not Turkic, although sometimes inscribed as Türük which amounts to Turkicization of this ethnonym. This of course does not mean that Orkhon Uighurs or Yenisei Kirghiz weren't Turkicized to a significant extent. As you can see the data yourself Orkhon Uighur r1b lines are European, afanasievo heritage. It only means that Türks were newcomers possibly of non-Turkic origin initially and they brought more j2a to Altai, Mongolia, south Siberia.

[Turul Karom]

Great information!

Great steppe family!

Many backgrounds, one Turan!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKyt37XOaf8

[Leto]

In historical context term Turkic applies to all Turkic groups, term Türk applies to a specific group of Turkic peoples who primarily lived in Altai and Mongolia but based on their legends did not originate in the aforementioned regions. The very ethnonym itself is not Turkic, although sometimes inscribed as Türük which amounts to Turkicization of this ethnonym. This of course does not mean that Orkhon Uighurs or Yenisei Kirghiz weren't Turkicized to a significant extent. As you can see the data yourself Orkhon Uighur r1b lines are European, afanasievo heritage. It only means that Türks were newcomers possibly of non-Turkic origin initially and they brought more j2a to Altai, Mongolia, south Siberia.
That's all quite confusing. Where was the proto-Turkic language spoken originally?

[Kmakkmak]

That's all quite confusing. Where was the proto-Turkic language spoken originally?

Altaic language. Mongolic related or Tungusic related proto turkic.

[Kmakkmak]

That's all quite confusing. Where was the proto-Turkic language spoken originally?

All Proto-IE lineages found in Turkic.

[Yaglakar]

That's all quite confusing. Where was the proto-Turkic language spoken originally?

Inner Mongolia (China) - Manchuria region is a very likely candidate with proto-Turkic and proto-Mongolic (or rather what would later become proto-Turkic and proto-Mongolic) splitting 6000 years ago.

[Leto]

Inner Mongolia (China) - Manchuria region is a very likely candidate with proto-Turkic and proto-Mongolic (or rather what would later become proto-Turkic and proto-Mongolic) splitting 6000 years ago.
Some Turks on this forum like to downplay the relation of the Turkics to the Mongols.

[Kyp]

Some Turks on this forum like to downplay the relation of the Turkics to the Mongols.

Yes I don't believe in the "mixed" population theory for Proto-Turks tbh.

[Leto]

Yes I don't believe in the "mixed" population theory for Proto-Turks tbh.
Soon they will tell us the Proto-Turkics were like Chuvash or Bashkirs (25-40% EE only)...

[Mejgusu]

Some Turks on this forum like to downplay the relation of the Turkics to the Mongols.

No, just we are saying we are not mongolians. Our history has a relation from early indoeuropeans (Iranians/germanics), finno ugrics in ural area to mongols in eurasian stepps to alataic/siberian people. keep in mind all the other people in central eurasia. But yes, prototurkics were much more siberian than today.

[yamagi]

What was the Eastern source for Anatolia? Based on G25 stats Karapalks seen to be the closest to original Anatolian ottomans + some assimilated Crimean Tatar, Mongolian also raised their EA scores

[Leto]

No, just we are saying we are not mongolians. Our history has a relation from early indoeuropeans (Iranians/germanics), finno ugrics in ural area to mongols in eurasian stepps to alataic/siberian people. keep in mind all the other people in central eurasia. But yes, prototurkics were much more siberian than today.
"We"? Who are you? If you are an Anatolian, then certainly not Mongolian.

[Mejgusu]

"We"? Who are you? If you are an Anatolian, then certainly not Mongolian.

i am an anotolian turk, not anatolian. and yes i am not a mongolian.

[mutabor]

Yes I don't believe in the "mixed" population theory for Proto-Turks tbh.

According to my method of comparison of language pronunciation I divide proto-Turkic language formation in two periods. The first period is intermixing of Afanasievo ( R1b) and Okunevo ( Q) cultures. After intermixing of R1b with Q in region of southern Siberia and Mongolia this population turned into predominantly mongoloid looking population. The second step of formation is intermixing of Q/R1b with Tungusic and Mongolic tribes in Mongolia due to massive migrations of the latter from the East.

I don't hear influence of R1a languages in Turkic language but I do hear elements ( only some elements) of Celto-Germanic languages in Turkic languages.

For reference of Celto-Germanic languages I will take Norwegian and Irish languages.

Norwegian


https://youtu.be/CCqtbte5s8E

Irish Celtic


https://youtu.be/b5w47EQmbso

The core of proto-Turkic language is possibly some language of people with haplogroup Q who lived in Southern Siberia, Tuva and Mongolia.

I will take two languages as a proof of that - Selkup langauge of Samoyedic people with high frequency of haplogroup Q = 66% and Selkup language sounds just like Yukaghir language in Chukotka region.


https://youtu.be/EKo7Wot1kKQ


https://youtu.be/xwTYP1N-1HQ

[mutabor]

Another question why do I think that the core of proto-Turkic language spoken by haplogroup Q was influenced by haplgorup R1b.

If you compare Selkup, Yukaghir and Eskimo languages you will hear that they lack in sounds which are called Umlauts in Germanic languages. These sounds are called frontal vowels ä, ö, and ü. I presume that these sounds were borrowed from speakers of haplogroup R1b. These vowels are absent in speakers of R1a languages.

In Selkup language I don't hear Umlaut vowels


https://youtu.be/EKo7Wot1kKQ

I hear Umlaut vowels in Norwegian language


https://youtu.be/CCqtbte5s8E

Umlaut vowels


https://youtu.be/mr-mCMtISfA

[Kaspias]

Soon they will tell us the Proto-Turkics were like Chuvash or Bashkirs (25-40% EE only)...

Bashkir is probably the closest population to proto-Turkic, together with Siberian Tatars.

And the language Chuvash speaks is the closest one to Proto-Turkic language as far as I know.

[mutabor]

After watching videos of languages of haplogroup Q and R1b we should look at ancient DNA of Uyghurs.

Note absence of haplogroup R1a.

Orkhon Uighurs:

OLN001.A F D4 -
OLN001.B M B5b1a Q1a1 (Q-F1215; Q-F1096)
OLN002 F T1a1 -
OLN003 M T1a1 R1b1a2 (R-PF6505; R-M269)
OLN004 F H4a1a1a -
OLN005 M H6b R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN007 M D4 C2e1a1a (C-F3864; C-M407)
OLN008 F D4i -
OLN009 F J1b1b1 -
OLN010 M G3a3 R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2105; R-CTS1078)
OLN011 M B5b2a R1b1a2a2 (R-CTS1078)
OLN012 F D4j10 -
ZAA001 F A24 -

[Kaspias]

Yes I don't believe in the "mixed" population theory for Proto-Turks tbh.

If Turks would have been Mongolian-like, we would not be speaking Turkish now but some accent of Mongolian.

I can explain the formation of Turkic from Neolithic to today btw, but don't think people will understand what I'm talking about.

[mutabor]

If we presume think that Ket, Selkup and Yukaghir languages were influenced by neighboring Turkic languages then we should listen to Eskimo languages.

In Canadian Inuit language I still hear a base of Turkic language including characteristic guttural K sound which is absent in Mongolic languages.


https://youtu.be/r0lrGBaawsk

[Sora]

Deleted

[Kyp]

If Turks would have been Mongolian-like, we would not be speaking Turkish now but some accent of Mongolian.

I can explain the formation of Turkic from Neolithic to today btw, but don't think people will understand what I'm talking about.

But turkic is related to Mongolian and part of the same language family. When I say Proto-Turks I don't mean Early Turkics. Anyway I might be wrong I'm no expert on lanuages.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

Another question why do I think that the core of proto-Turkic language spoken by haplogroup Q was influenced by haplgorup R1b.

If you compare Selkup, Yukaghir and Eskimo languages you will hear that they lack in sounds which are called Umlauts in Germanic languages. These sounds are called frontal vowels ä, ö, and ü. I presume that these sounds were borrowed from speakers of haplogroup R1b. These vowels are absent in speakers of R1a languages.

In Selkup language I don't hear Umlaut vowels

Are you kidding me... Sylkyp soynds lyke thys.

In Selkup "ы" ("y" when romanized) denotes /ɨ/, but it sounds like /y/ to a Finnish ear. (/ɨ/ is a central version of /y/, which is frontal.) For example in the romanized text below, there's a total of 17 "y" characters:

https://i.imgur.com/k9eTWRP.jpg

However Selkup also has /y/ ("y" in Finnish orthography) and /æ/ ("ä" in Finnish orthography). Selkup and Yukaghir both have /ø/ ("ö" in Finnish orthography). Eskimo-Aleut languages have ridiculously small vowel inventories though.

$ curl eurasianphonology.info/static/phono_dbase.json|jq -r '.[]|(.gen|join(", "))+";"+.name+";"+(.vows|join(" "))'|grep Selkup\|Yukag\|Yupik
Yukaghir, ;Kolyma Yukaghir;i u ɛ ə œ ɔ a iɛ uɔ uœ iː uː ɛː œː ɔː aː
Yukaghir, ;Tundra Yukaghir;ɛ̠ u ʉ ə œ̠ ɞ̠ a̠ i iɛ̠ ʉɞ̠ ʉœ̠ ɨa̠ ɛ̠ː ʉː əː œ̠ː ɞ̠ː a̠ː iː
Uralic, Samoyed;Taz Selkup;u uː i iː y yː ɨ ɨː e eː o oː ø øː ɘ ɘː æ æː a aː ɪ ɪː ɛ ɛː ɔː
Eskimo-Aleut, Yupik;Naukan Yupik;ɨ a i u

[itilvolga]

I can explain the formation of Turkic from Neolithic to today btw, but don't think people will understand what I'm talking about.

Come to think of it, if you shared a blog post about it here, I would read so willingly

[mutabor]

Are you kidding me... Sylkyp soynds lyke thys.

In Selkup "ы" ("y" when romanized) denotes /ɨ/, but it sounds like /y/ to a Finnish ear. (/ɨ/ is a central version of /y/, which is frontal.) For example in the romanized text below, there's a total of 17 "y" characters:


You are correct that Selkup has frontal vowels but I think they are not that that pronounced as frontal vowels in Turkic languages. Anyways I think that the core of proto-Turkic language was a language of haplogroup Q speakers. This language got dissolved and assimilated by migrations of Tungusic and Mongolic tribes in Mongolia and Tuva.

I listened to languages of Tungusic and Mongolic peoples and they don't have guttural K sound which is characteristic to speakers of haplogroup Q.

[Mejgusu]

But turkic is related to Mongolian and part of the same language family. When I say Proto-Turks I don't mean Early Turkics. Anyway I might be wrong I'm no expert on lanuages.

Indeed, there are the possibility that prototurks were much more easteuroasian than known. But thats just theory, nobody knows who the prototurkucs were...



Bashkir is probably the closest population to proto-Turkic, together with Siberian Tatars.

And the language Chuvash speaks is the closest one to Proto-Turkic language as far as I know.

Whats the genetics of siberian tatars? Eurasian+ something with 20-40% siberian rest eastasian?

That with cuvas is probably right, they branched off early, they were maybe relative with hunns.

[Demhat]

It seems that Sogdians were J-rich people.
Here is one of the samples of Uyghurs (they are documented mixed with Sogdians).

http://s020.radikal.ru/i717/1602/ee/dd9e911fa72e.jpg


Also the Yaghnobi, the linguistic descendens are very high in J 32%, idiots at Wikipedia still divide this by Iranic vs agriculturist. While the ethnogenesis of the Iranic speakers was a blend of the two groups.

Some people will simply never understand that Proto Indo_Iranics straight out mixed with more Iranian_Neolithic farmer DNA and that is part of their genetic make up. That is what created them at first place.

Steppe pastoralists + BMAC like agriculturalists = East Iranic
Steppe pastoralists + Zagros Chalcolthic pastoralists + Anatolian farmers = West Iranic.

[Demhat]

Chelubey, how is your bogus info relevant to the topic? What do you mean by 'documented to be mixed' when great majority of Turkic groups did not even possess any form of writing, not even mentioning documentation/bureaucracy. Не пойман - не вор? :) Sogdians were always mentioned in symbiosis with Celestial Turks and Orkhon Uighurs. Large Sogdian communities were present in Mongolia and northern China. The fact that they were documented by Uighur bureaucracy later in Xinjiang does not mean they were not present among other groups who did not possess any form of writing. Likewise, the results you posted are from a single area and do not reflect reality.

https://i.ibb.co/9vT56MC/Uyghurs-1.png
https://i.ibb.co/zPLdNZn/Uyghurs-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/8s5Nr35/Uyghurs-3.png
https://i.ibb.co/4msy1sn/Uyghurs-4.png

The more interesting question is why are Mongolic Khitan individuals j2a, or why do Celestial Turks have j2a. To me the data confirms my longtime suspicion that first Türks were not Turkic (which is ironic) or not fully Turkic.

https://i.ibb.co/J7fPP6z/Turks.png

The suspicion has existed for a long time even in academic circles. It is no coincidence that the earliest Turkic traditions/clans overlap well with the suddenly disappearing East Iranic groups. For example the Elite Ashina clan (which is literally build up by two Iranic words Asman =Sky Shin =blue meaning => Gök aka Sky/Celestial Turks).

I always had that suspicion that the proto Turkics might actually be Saka tribes that had assimilated into the East Siberian culture mixed with the locals and shifted to Mongolian language. Iranic elements are still very strong in Turkic language to this day. It's also no coincidence that the Huns for example are described as a confederation of Iranic and Mongol tribes. What if those Iranic tribes that absorbed Mongol elements became the Turkics?

[Kaspias]

But turkic is related to Mongolian and part of the same language family. When I say Proto-Turks I don't mean Early Turkics. Anyway I might be wrong I'm no expert on lanuages.


Turkic is also related to Uralic, and Uralic is genetically related to Ugric. These are keys that will bring us to the conclusion. You should question how Uralic formed and what caused to a relativity connection between Uralic and Altaic.

I got you what you mean with Proto-Turkic. Not the actual Turkic form but earliest Altaic speakers, and this is your answer:

Mongolic-Altaic:


Distance to: RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.04253912 Nivkh
0.04828914 Oroqen
0.04972285 Hezhen
0.05294916 Ulchi
0.05502132 Nanai
0.05960205 Daur
0.07476746 Negidal
0.08136665 Xibo
0.09648187 Mongola
0.09820665 Khamnegan
0.12361921 Korean
0.12374489 Japanese
0.12467140 Tibetan_Gangcha
0.13046887 Kalmyk
0.13203877 Tu
0.13259204 Tibetan_Nagqu
0.13298760 Yugur
0.13307901 Tibetan_Chamdo
0.13522069 Qiang_Daofu
0.13564700 Tibetan_Lhasa
0.13588528 Mongolian
0.13605925 Tibetan_Shigatse
0.13665981 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.13749479 Buryat
0.13778750 Tibetan_Shannan

Turkic-Altaic:


Distance to: RUS_Baikal_N
0.04398008 Shor_Khakassia
0.04787365 Shor_Mountain
0.05091914 Shor
0.05617083 Tubalar
0.06001178 Khakass
0.09245274 Kazakh
0.09438337 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.09633893 Khakass_Kachins
0.09839181 Karakalpak
0.10309855 Kirghiz
0.10335841 Altaian
0.10464813 Tatar_Siberian
0.10618724 Kirghiz_China
0.11253110 Ket
0.11375777 Nogai
0.11642765 Khanty
0.11819880 Kazakh_China
0.11834612 Selkup
0.12049239 Mansi
0.12817250 Yukagir_Forest
0.12862201 Hazara
0.13293818 Uygur
0.13432628 Mogush
0.13513517 Nenets
0.13571983 Hazara_Afghanistan

Simple East Eurasian calculation:


Target: RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
Distance: 23.9757% / 0.23975668
89.8 Nganassan
9.8 GEO_CHG
0.4 WHG

Target: RUS_Baikal_N
Distance: 12.1812% / 0.12181243
59.0 Nganassan
28.4 GEO_CHG
12.6 WHG


So it is highly Yeniseian, corrects Proto-Turk Q theory, but the problem is major development during Turkic formation occurred during(or just before) Bronze Age. And most of today's Turks paternally descent from the other population despite Altai brought the language. (See: N, R, J)

And this is how BA(earliest we know) Turkic looks:


Distance to: MNG_Hovsgol_BA_o2
0.05382444 Tatar_Siberian
0.05459612 Bashkir
0.08215698 Nogai
0.08795499 Uzbek
0.09118084 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.09520952 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.09560021 Uygur
0.09819335 Karakalpak
0.10104684 Tubalar
0.10152950 Hazara
0.10673553 Yukagir_Forest
0.10856579 Tlingit
0.11686601 Shor_Mountain
0.12023160 Shor_Khakassia
0.12111272 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.12160415 Shor
0.12481685 Kazakh
0.12482328 Tatar_Lipka
0.12678904 Udmurt
0.12687991 Turkmen
0.13340959 Besermyan
0.13407193 Mansi
0.14183565 Khakass
0.14251704 Saami
0.14261792 Khanty


Actually there is a process. In this sample, Altaic is still dominant, but on the LBA and EIA samples, it is half-half.

[Demhat]

so türks are assimilated iranics by your point then..
Possible

Another possibility is that they were Altaic who absorbed the Sakas very early, but then they had Saka clans as their Elite. It could be simply a merge of Iranic and Mongol elements that formed the Turkic people.

But it also makes sense that they are those Saka that simply assimilated and mixed into the local Mongol community. Remember When the Seljuks arrived they basically spoke Persian. When the Achaemenids rised to power. Aramaic was lingua franca. Mongols in Afghanistan assimilated into the culture and speak Dari and not Mongol today. When the Goth sacked Rome they assimilated into the culture and literally became Italic speakers. Sometimes the "conquerers" take the culture and language of the "conquered" locals.

Two possibilities.
OG Turks = Altaic speakers who merged with East Iranics very early
OG Turks = Saka who assimilated into Mongol culture and adopted Mongol language but with heavy Iranic elements.

[mutabor]

Tungusic and Mongolic elements of pronunciation are also present in Turkic language. Mongolian language has specific sounds which make it sound distinct but let's take for example Buryat dialect which doesn't have Mongolian sound -LL-.

I hear familiar vibe to Turkic language in Buryat language. Mongolic languages don't have guttural K sounds which is characteristic to Turkic language instead they have H sounds. Guttural K sound is characteristic to languages of people with haplogroup Q. Which means that Tungusic and Mongolic people when they migrated to Mongolia adopted guttural K sound instead of H sounds when they intermixed with Yenisean speakers ( haplogroup Q). And in general Tungusic/Mongolic languages intermixed with Yenisean language.

Buryat


https://youtu.be/xMkxkIcxc24


https://youtu.be/ncq16Zu9sFw

[Zoro]

Also the Yaghnobi, the linguistic descendens are very high in J 32%, idiots at Wikipedia still divide this by Iranic vs agriculturist. While the ethnogenesis of the Iranic speakers was a blend of the two groups.

Some people will simply never understand that Proto Indo_Iranics straight out mixed with more Iranian_Neolithic farmer DNA and that is part of their genetic make up. That is what created them at first place.

Steppe pastoralists + BMAC like agriculturalists = East Iranic
Steppe pastoralists + Zagros Chalcolthic pastoralists + Anatolian farmers = West Iranic.

And if we want to be more detailed we can say the Iron Age Steppe Pastoralists were of the Sarmatian/Scythian type who had already absorbed some E. Asian admixture because for both West Iranic and East Iranic we need some E. Asian admixture for the formal models to work.

In the case of West Iranic, a good local proxy would be something like Hasanlu-IA or Haji-Firuz-IA plus some Turkic for most West Iranics. However, those Zagrosian Iron Age Iranians were a blend of Neolithic Iranians herders + Kura-Araxes BA (Neolithic Levant farmers + Neolithic Anatolian Farmers) + some kind of a Central Asian source

[mutabor]

Kalmyk Mongolic language sounds like Turkic language. It was obviously influenced by Turkic neighbors in pronunciation but the thing is the flow of Kalmyk language is pretty similar to flow of Turkic languages in terms of how words are constructed.


https://youtu.be/i6tGw7yD-_U

[Zoro]

so türks are assimilated iranics by your point then..

The other way around Iranic Scythians/Saka were assimilated by Turkics as they grew strong in Central Asia. For whatever reason Iranic Scythians found themselves in a weaker position at that time at decided to integrate into Turkic population. That's when the language shift started to occur in many parts of Central Asia from Iranic to Turkic.

As far as Saka original language before assimilation you can see it's much more related to Kurdish, Avestan and Ossetic than to Turkish.

https://i.imgur.com/DGWAxBU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/N33bTbl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HzlGySO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8DrT1To.jpg

[Mejgusu]

ne yazarsak yazalim, her zaman birileri gelip yine sacma sapan seyler yaziyor. Kac kere dedik ki iranlilar bizim uygarligimiz ve tarihimiz icen cok önemli rol oynadiklarini... biliyorum yeniyim burda ama sabirli olmak gercekten zor burda. bunlar gelip kürtler aryan bilmem ne deseler ve bizde yok asimle olmus mezopotamyalilar bilmem ne desek nasil tepki gösterirler...


The suspicion has existed for a long time even in academic circles. It is no coincidence that the earliest Turkic traditions/clans overlap well with the suddenly disappearing East Iranic groups. For example the Elite Ashina clan (which is literally build up by two Iranic words Asman =Sky Shin =blue meaning => Gök aka Sky/Celestial Turks).

How many times should we say that: No turk denies the importance of iranians for their civilization. but this shouldnt be exaggerated.


It's also no coincidence that the Huns for example are described as a confederation of Iranic and Mongol tribes. What if those Iranic tribes that absorbed Mongol elements became the Turkics?

no :thumb001:


The other way around Iranic Scythians/Saka were assimilated by Turkics as they grew strong in Central Asia. For whatever reason Iranic Scythians found themselves in a weaker position at that time at decided to integrate into Turkic population. That's when the language shift started to occur in many parts of Central Asia from Iranic to Turkic.

every! eurasian steppe nation were polyethnical. Inside iranic empires were also non iranians, inside turkic empires were also non turkics...


As far as Saka original language before assimilation you can see it's much more related to Kurdish, Avestan and Ossetic than to Turkish.

maybe its because that was an iranic language?

[Kaspias]

ne yazarsak yazalim, her zaman birileri gelip yine sacma sapan seyler yaziyor. Kac kere dedik ki iranlilar bizim uygarligimiz ve tarihimiz icen cok önemli rol oynadiklarini... biliyorum yeniyim burda ama sabirli olmak gercekten zor burda. bunlar gelip kürtler aryan bilmem ne deseler ve bizde yok asimle olmus mezopotamyalilar bilmem ne desek nasil tepki gösterirler...



How many times should we say that: No turk denies the importance of iranians for their civilization. but this shouldnt be exaggerated.



no :thumb001:



every! eurasian steppe nation were polyethnical. Inside iranic empires were also non iranians, inside turkic empires were also non turkics...



maybe its because that was an iranic language?

Bu Irani muhabbeti gerçekten Hun olduklarını iddia edecek raddeye geldi mi?

[Demhat]

ne yazarsak yazalim, her zaman birileri gelip yine sacma sapan seyler yaziyor. Kac kere dedik ki iranlilar bizim uygarligimiz ve tarihimiz icen cok önemli rol oynadiklarini... biliyorum yeniyim burda ama sabirli olmak gercekten zor burda. bunlar gelip kürtler aryan bilmem ne deseler ve bizde yok asimle olmus mezopotamyalilar bilmem ne desek nasil tepki gösterirler...



How many times should we say that: No turk denies the importance of iranians for their civilization. but this shouldnt be exaggerated.



no :thumb001:




First thing to say, you should understand that we are on a Anthroboard and people are going to make theories. There are enough threads about Kurds where other members throw in let's say "undesierable" theories. And all we can is disprove why these theories are wrong.

It's not about claiming that Turks are assimiated this or that. It is about learning how the ethnogesis of the Turkic people came into existence. Now how you call them, assimilated Iranics or Altaics who assimilated Iranics or a synthesis from Altaic and Iranic tribes is not of a big interest to me. I merely threw out some theories.

If you don't agree with one of them. Simple explain why you don't and what you think is a better theory.

Now believe me if I tell you there is absolutely no reason from my side to make Turks appear like assimilated Iranics or whatever. I am merely trying to understand the origin of the Turkic tribes. If you believe that an ultimate Altaic origin makes more sense to you. That's fine for me and it could actually be the most logical thing.
:thumb001:

[Mejgusu]

Bu Irani muhabbeti gerçekten Hun olduklarını iddia edecek raddeye geldi mi?

bazilarina göre hunlar iran kökenlidi. acikve kesin olan kanitlari görmezden gelerek böyle bir tezi ileri sürmeyi cok seviyorlar. ne yapalim.

[Kyp]

bazilarina göre hunlar iran kökenlidi. acikve kesin olan kanitlari görmezden gelerek böyle bir tezi ileri sürmeyi cok seviyorlar. ne yapalim.

Haplogruppen wie R1a (Kirgisen) and J2 sind nicht türkischen Ursprungs. Das ist klar. Also was ist deine Erkärung dafür? Es ist fair in dieser Hinsicht ein paar Thesen aufzustellen (meines Erachtens)

[Kaspias]

bazilarina göre hunlar iran kökenlidi. acikve kesin olan kanitlari görmezden gelerek böyle bir tezi ileri sürmeyi cok seviyorlar. ne yapalim.

Irani'ye bak sen :D


Data file is root@Kaspias\nspreadsheet.txt
25 components mode.
Population data has been read. 72 populations found.
Personal data has been read. 30 approximations mode.
Person: MNG_Xiongnu_Central_Asian
Threshold of components set to 0,31%


Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,452829
2 RUS_Khvalynsk_En @ 1,009981
3 RUS_Progress_En @ 1,013357
4 RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 1,036365
5 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 1,056392
6 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o @ 1,059573
7 TJK_Sarazm_En @ 1,119494
8 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2 @ 1,125963
9 UKR_Dereivka_I_En1 @ 1,144238
10 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En @ 1,161668
11 TKM_Geoksyur_En @ 1,165161
12 NOR_N_HG @ 1,174362
13 TKM_Geoksyur_N @ 1,184475
14 RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 1,189776
15 RUS_Shamanka_N @ 1,19109
16 UKR_N @ 1,196381
17 TKM_Tepe_Anau_En @ 1,212171
18 RUS_Fofonovo_En @ 1,236616
19 UZB_Bustan_En @ 1,239652
20 TKM_Parkhai_En @ 1,254067
21 SWE_PWC_NHG @ 1,264269
22 MNG_North_N @ 1,269332
23 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N @ 1,271819
24 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N @ 1,271819
25 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N @ 1,288523
26 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En @ 1,289979
27 IRN_Wezmeh_N @ 1,320964
28 IRN_Wezmeh_N @ 1,320964
29 MNG_East_N @ 1,321477
30 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 1,329439
72 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,203052
2 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,203198
3 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,210096
4 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,211474
5 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 0,214969
6 RUS_Progress_En+MNG_North_N @ 0,216318
7 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_North_N @ 0,216823
8 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En @ 0,219021
9 RUS_Progress_En+MNG_East_N @ 0,22771
10 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_East_N @ 0,234713
11 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,238016
12 RUS_Fofonovo_En+UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,244681
13 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,246055
14 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,246824
15 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,254852
16 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+MNG_North_N @ 0,266161
17 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+MNG_East_N @ 0,289046
18 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,292787
19 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,294513
20 RUS_Fofonovo_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o @ 0,300189
21 RUS_Fofonovo_En+UKR_Dereivka_I_En2 @ 0,314368
22 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,317155
23 TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,318045
24 TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,31988
25 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,319931
26 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+MNG_North_N @ 0,32073
27 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,322091
28 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,32442
29 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,326591
30 TKM_Geoksyur_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,330443
2628 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Baikal_N +25% RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,172649
2 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Vonyuchka_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,18413
3 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_East_N +25% RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,184929
4 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% TJK_Sarazm_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,187406
5 50% RUS_Vonyuchka_En +25% RUS_Baikal_N +25% RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,187915
6 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% RUS_Vonyuchka_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,188464
7 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Progress_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,188527
8 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% TJK_Sarazm_En +25% UKR_Dereivka_I_En2 @ 0,18881
9 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En @ 0,188906
10 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% TJK_Sarazm_En +25% UKR_Dereivka_I_En2 @ 0,189096
11 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% TJK_Sarazm_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,189462
12 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Vonyuchka_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,18981
13 50% RUS_Vonyuchka_En +25% MNG_East_N +25% RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,192804
14 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En @ 0,192969
15 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% RUS_Progress_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,193591
16 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Parkhai_En @ 0,194346
17 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Geoksyur_N @ 0,195893
18 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Progress_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,196406
19 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% TJK_Sarazm_En +25% UKR_Dereivka_I_En2 @ 0,197698
20 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Geoksyur_En @ 0,198409
21 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Progress_En +25% TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o @ 0,198666
22 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Parkhai_En @ 0,198845
23 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_North_N +25% RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,199672
24 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 0,199886
25 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% TKM_Geoksyur_En +25% UKR_Dereivka_I_En2 @ 0,200347
26 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Geoksyur_N @ 0,200381
27 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% TKM_Geoksyur_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,200611
28 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% UZB_Bustan_En @ 0,200645
29 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% TKM_Geoksyur_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,200753
30 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En +25% UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,201229
186588 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En+RUS_Baikal_N+ RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,129517
2 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+RUS_Baikal_ N+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,129816
3 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_De vils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,131887
4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave _N+TKM_Geoksyur_N @ 0,133947
5 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Geoksyur_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_ Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,136405
6 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En+MNG_East_N+RU S_Baikal_N @ 0,145632
7 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+UZB_Bustan_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_De vils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,146573
8 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+MNG_East_N+ RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,147901
9 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Parkhai_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_D evils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,148362
10 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Tepe_Anau_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS _Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,148367
11 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Baikal_N+TKM_Geoks yur_N @ 0,153321
12 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En+MNG_North_N+R US_Baikal_N @ 0,15528
13 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Geoksyur_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Ba ikal_N @ 0,155771
14 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Baik al_N @ 0,156676
15 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N+RUS_Baika l_N+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,158012
16 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N+RUS_Baika l_N+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,158012
17 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+MNG_North_N +RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,159596
18 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_ En+RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,160891
19 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_ En_o+RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,16177
20 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_Baikal_N+TKM_Geok syur_N @ 0,162352
21 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS _Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,162721
22 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Tepe_Anau_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_B aikal_N @ 0,163936
23 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Parkhai_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Bai kal_N @ 0,164173
24 RUS_Progress_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+RUS_Baikal_N +RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,164224
25 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+UZB_Bustan_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Baik al_N @ 0,165076
26 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Geoksyur_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_B aikal_N @ 0,165564
27 TJK_Sarazm_En+NOR_N_HG+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Devils_Gat e_Cave_N @ 0,166145
28 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Baikal_N+TKM_ Geoksyur_N @ 0,166749
29 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Wezmeh_N+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Dev ils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,166806
30 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Wezmeh_N+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Dev ils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,166806
31 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_Bai kal_N @ 0,169486
32 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En+RUS_Baikal_N+ RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,170372
33 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Geoksyur_En+R US_Baikal_N @ 0,170902
34 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Tepe_Anau_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_ Baikal_N @ 0,171796
35 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Parkhai_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_Ba ikal_N @ 0,172158
36 TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N+ UKR_N @ 0,172222
37 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_D evils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,172649
38 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N+MNG_East_ N+RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,172698
39 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N+MNG_East_ N+RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,172698
40 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En+RUS_Baikal_N+ RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,172775
41 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+UZB_Bustan_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_Bai kal_N @ 0,173098
42 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+RUS_Baikal_ N+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,173932
43 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Tepe_Anau_En+ RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,174864
44 RUS_Progress_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+MNG_East_N+R US_Baikal_N @ 0,175756
45 NOR_N_HG+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N+TKM_G eoksyur_N @ 0,175847
46 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Lokomotiv_N+TKM_ Geoksyur_N @ 0,176386
47 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Parkhai_En+RU S_Baikal_N @ 0,17653
48 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+RUS_Baikal_ N+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,176569
49 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+UZB_Bustan_En+RUS _Baikal_N @ 0,176714
50 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_ Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,17679
51 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En+NOR_N_HG+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Devi ls_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,176892
52 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N+MNG_East_N+RUS_B aikal_N @ 0,177987
53 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N+MNG_North _N+RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,178323
54 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N+MNG_North _N+RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,178323
55 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS _Baikal_N @ 0,178477
56 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_Shamanka_N+TKM_G eoksyur_N @ 0,179025
57 TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_East_N+NOR_N_HG+RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,179335
58 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Geoksyur_En+RUS_Baikal_N+RUS_ Lokomotiv_N @ 0,179394
59 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Wezmeh_N+MNG_East_N+RUS_Baika l_N @ 0,179703
60 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+IRN_Wezmeh_N+MNG_East_N+RUS_Baika l_N @ 0,179703
1215450 iterations.


Gaussian method.
Noise dispersion set to 0,199984

Using 1 population approximation:
1 RUS_Baikal_N @ 0,754568
2 RUS_Khvalynsk_En @ 1,395554
3 RUS_Progress_En @ 1,417447
4 RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 1,441982
5 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 1,468018
6 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o @ 1,490131
7 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2 @ 1,528789
8 TJK_Sarazm_En @ 1,538372
9 UKR_Dereivka_I_En1 @ 1,544044
10 NOR_N_HG @ 1,544304
11 UKR_N @ 1,570986
12 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En @ 1,583473
13 TKM_Geoksyur_En @ 1,584442
14 RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 1,606011
15 RUS_Shamanka_N @ 1,606454
16 TKM_Geoksyur_N @ 1,606973
17 TKM_Tepe_Anau_En @ 1,631033
18 SWE_PWC_NHG @ 1,649968
19 UZB_Bustan_En @ 1,654736
20 TKM_Parkhai_En @ 1,66865
21 RUS_Fofonovo_En @ 1,673849
22 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En @ 1,680967
23 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N @ 1,697932
24 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N @ 1,697932
25 MNG_North_N @ 1,71136
26 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N @ 1,71234
27 IRN_Wezmeh_N @ 1,749921
28 IRN_Wezmeh_N @ 1,749921
29 POL_BKG_N_o2 @ 1,755198
30 ROU_Iron_Gates_N @ 1,756177
72 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En @ 0,443061
2 RUS_Progress_En+MNG_North_N @ 0,44359
3 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,444559
4 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,444648
5 RUS_Progress_En+MNG_East_N @ 0,445038
6 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 0,445678
7 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_North_N @ 0,446875
8 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,479989
9 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,489187
10 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_East_N @ 0,515724
11 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,544397
12 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En @ 0,594064
13 RUS_Vonyuchka_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,598149
14 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+MNG_East_N @ 0,603166
15 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+MNG_North_N @ 0,605368
16 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,610233
17 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,611664
18 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,636612
19 RUS_Fofonovo_En+UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 @ 0,639553
20 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,657029
21 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,663581
22 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+MNG_North_N @ 0,665452
23 RUS_Fofonovo_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o @ 0,684564
24 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4+MNG_East_N @ 0,68544
25 TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,689767
26 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,690443
27 TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,693404
28 RUS_Fofonovo_En+TJK_Sarazm_En @ 0,693697
29 TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,697714
30 TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_North_N @ 0,702571
2628 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TJK_Sarazm_En @ 0,442749
2 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% MNG_North_N @ 0,443
3 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Progress_En @ 0,443061
4 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% MNG_East_N @ 0,443177
5 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,44338
6 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,443386
7 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_North_N +25% MNG_North_N @ 0,44359
8 50% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TJK_Sarazm_En @ 0,443632
9 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_North_N +25% RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,443725
10 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_North_N +25% RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,443751
11 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,443759
12 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_East_N +25% RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,443783
13 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_East_N +25% RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,443865
14 50% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TJK_Sarazm_En @ 0,443915
15 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 0,443915
16 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o @ 0,444038
17 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_East_N +25% MNG_North_N @ 0,444051
18 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En @ 0,444421
19 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Geoksyur_En @ 0,444455
20 50% MNG_North_N +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TJK_Sarazm_En @ 0,444517
21 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,444535
22 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Shamanka_N +25% RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,444559
23 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Lokomotiv_N +25% RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,444648
24 50% MNG_North_N +25% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 0,444776
25 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N +25% RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,444788
26 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 0,444874
27 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_East_N +25% MNG_East_N @ 0,445038
28 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N +25% RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,44512
29 50% RUS_Progress_En +25% MNG_North_N +25% RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,445134
30 50% RUS_Fofonovo_En +25% RUS_Khvalynsk_En +25% TKM_Geoksyur_N @ 0,445409
186588 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+T JK_Sarazm_En @ 0,442749
2 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS _Shamanka_N @ 0,442759
3 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS _Lokomotiv_N @ 0,442862
4 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MN G_North_N @ 0,443
5 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RU S_Progress_En @ 0,443061
6 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MN G_East_N @ 0,443177
7 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG _North_N @ 0,443307
8 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RU S_Shamanka_N @ 0,44338
9 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RU S_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,443386
10 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS _Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,443568
11 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MNG_North_N+MNG_No rth_N @ 0,44359
12 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Shamanka_N+RUS_ Shamanka_N @ 0,443632
13 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N+RUS _Shamanka_N @ 0,443706
14 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_Sha manka_N @ 0,443722
15 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_Sh amanka_N @ 0,443725
16 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_Lo komotiv_N @ 0,443751
17 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RU S_Devils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,443759
18 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Sha manka_N @ 0,443783
19 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_Lok omotiv_N @ 0,443844
20 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Lok omotiv_N @ 0,443865
21 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N+RUS _Lokomotiv_N @ 0,443915
22 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RU S_Vonyuchka_En @ 0,443915
23 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+M NG_North_N @ 0,44402
24 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG _East_N @ 0,444036
25 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+T KM_Namazga_Tepe_En_o @ 0,444038
26 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MNG_East_N+MNG_Nor th_N @ 0,444051
27 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cav e_N+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,444276
28 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Sham anka_N @ 0,444326
29 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+R US_Shamanka_N @ 0,444359
30 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+R US_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,444419
31 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+T KM_Namazga_Tepe_En @ 0,444421
32 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+M NG_East_N @ 0,444436
33 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+T KM_Geoksyur_En @ 0,444455
34 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Loko motiv_N @ 0,444506
35 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+MNG_North_N+MNG_Nor th_N @ 0,444517
36 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N+RU S_Shamanka_N @ 0,444535
37 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Shamanka_N+RUS _Shamanka_N @ 0,444559
38 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_ En_o+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,444572
39 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_ En+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,444631
40 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N+RU S_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,444648
41 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Geoksyur_En+R US_Shamanka_N @ 0,444683
42 RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TJK_Sarazm_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Cav e_N+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,444708
43 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_North_N+MNG_N orth_N @ 0,444776
44 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Ca ve_N+RUS_Shamanka_N @ 0,444788
45 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_S hamanka_N @ 0,44487
46 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+R US_Vonyuchka_En @ 0,444874
47 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_ En_o+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,444875
48 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Geoksyur_En+R US_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,444938
49 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_L okomotiv_N @ 0,44495
50 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_ En+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,44497
51 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MNG_East_N+MNG_Eas t_N @ 0,445038
52 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Devils_Gate_Ca ve_N+RUS_Lokomotiv_N @ 0,44512
53 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Progress_En+MNG_North_N+RUS_De vils_Gate_Cave_N @ 0,445134
54 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Sh amanka_N @ 0,445167
55 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+ MNG_East_N @ 0,445187
56 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+ MNG_North_N @ 0,445228
57 RUS_Progress_En+RUS_Vonyuchka_En+MNG_East_N+RUS_Lo komotiv_N @ 0,445304
58 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+T KM_Geoksyur_N @ 0,445409
59 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_ En_o+MNG_North_N @ 0,445438
60 RUS_Fofonovo_En+RUS_Khvalynsk_En+TKM_Namazga_Tepe_ En+MNG_North_N @ 0,445444
1215450 iterations.

[Mejgusu]

Haplogruppen wie R1a (Kirgisen) and J2 sind nicht türkischen Ursprungs. Das ist klar. Also was ist deine Erkärung dafür? Es ist fair in dieser Hinsicht ein paar Thesen aufzustellen (meines Erachtens)

Definitiv nicht. Ich leugne ja auch nicht den iranischen Einfluss. Jedoch regt mich im Allgemeinen die manch ignorante Art und Weise einiger User auf.

To Haplogroup R1a, yes its definitely originated from steppe. first indoeuropeans had it, then turkics. Kirgiz people have a lot of it, one of the most mongoloid turkics. Also many tadjiks, the most northeuropean iranics. Probably kurgan origin. That only proofs the special relationship between his both groups. Without knowing iranic you cant explain turkic history. But j2 is another issue. its well known that it came from somewher near east or caucasus, but there are a lot of j2 in central eaurasia and yes also in some parts of mongolia. because of that i definitely think the most interesting haplogroup. it didnt orginate from there but its nativ. For example j2 is verry common in turkics of russia, but not common under russians. Also cuvas and tatars in eastern europe have it.

[Kyp]

Irani'ye bak sen :D


Data file is root@Kaspias\nspreadsheet.txt
25 components mode.
Population data has been read. 72 populations found.
Personal data has been read. 30 approximations mode.
Person: MNG_Xiongnu_Central_Asian




Why do they have TKM, TJK etc... (Serious question)?

[Kaspias]

Haplogruppen wie R1a (Kirgisen) and J2 sind nicht türkischen Ursprungs. Das ist klar. Also was ist deine Erkärung dafür? Es ist fair in dieser Hinsicht ein paar Thesen aufzustellen (meines Erachtens)


Why do they have TKM, TJK etc... (Serious question)?


Überprüfen Sie das Ergebnis, das ich gepostet habe. Türken bekommen eine große Menge ugrischer Beimischung. Die Quelle sollte die Botai Kultur sein. Dies ist das Ergebnis der Botai Sample:

Distance to: KAZ_Botai
0.18326932 Tlingit
0.18566524 Udmurt
0.19745294 Saami
0.19873387 Besermyan
0.20088058 Mansi
0.20293442 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.20456979 Khanty
0.20768231 Bashkir
0.21352932 Ket
0.21400819 Mari
0.21770470 Tatar_Siberian
0.21908207 Chuvash
0.22400652 Komi
0.22582419 Greenlander_West
0.23080867 Tatar_Kazan
0.24263002 Tatar_Lipka
0.24499823 Shor_Mountain
0.24506144 Yukagir_Forest
0.24523981 Tubalar
0.24662247 Shor_Khakassia
0.24760396 Uzbek
0.24837333 Tajik_Shugnan
0.24935293 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.25007105 Tatar_Mishar
0.25120628 Jatt_Pathak

Anstelle einer direkten Interaktion zwischen türkischen und iranischen Stämmen scheinen sich Türken mit ugrischen und von dort geerbten iranischen Beimischungen zu vermischen. Denken Sie daran, ich habe Ihnen eine Bevölkerung erwähnt, die der Vater der meisten Türken anstelle des Altai war. Dies ist die Wurzel für N, R und J. Es war ugrisch. Es bildete sich auch später Uralic durch Mischen mit Türken.

Im Süden wie Karluk gab es danach eine direkte Interaktion zwischen Türken und Iranern. Auch die Oghuz migration.

Bitte entschuldigen Sie mein schlechtes Deutsch.

[Leto]

For example j2 is verry common in turkics of russia, but not common under russians. Also cuvas and tatars in eastern europe have it.
Which Turkics? The North Caucasian Turkics are mostly assimilated locals, just like the Ossetians by the way. And don't tell me about their Mongoloid percentage, Circassians/Kabardians score practically the same amount as Karachay-Balkars, for example and they don't speak a Turkic language.

[Mejgusu]

Überprüfen Sie das Ergebnis, das ich gepostet habe. Türken bekommen eine große Menge ugrischer Beimischung. Die Quelle sollte die Botai Kultur sein. Dies ist das Ergebnis der Botai Sample:

Distance to: KAZ_Botai
0.18326932 Tlingit
0.18566524 Udmurt
0.19745294 Saami
0.19873387 Besermyan
0.20088058 Mansi
0.20293442 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.20456979 Khanty
0.20768231 Bashkir
0.21352932 Ket
0.21400819 Mari
0.21770470 Tatar_Siberian
0.21908207 Chuvash
0.22400652 Komi
0.22582419 Greenlander_West
0.23080867 Tatar_Kazan
0.24263002 Tatar_Lipka
0.24499823 Shor_Mountain
0.24506144 Yukagir_Forest
0.24523981 Tubalar
0.24662247 Shor_Khakassia
0.24760396 Uzbek
0.24837333 Tajik_Shugnan
0.24935293 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.25007105 Tatar_Mishar
0.25120628 Jatt_Pathak

Anstelle einer direkten Interaktion zwischen türkischen und iranischen Stämmen scheinen sich Türken mit ugrischen und von dort geerbten iranischen Beimischungen zu vermischen. Denken Sie daran, ich habe Ihnen eine Bevölkerung erwähnt, die der Vater der meisten Türken anstelle des Altai war. Dies ist die Wurzel für N, R und J. Es war ugrisch. Es bildete sich auch später Uralic durch Mischen mit Türken.

Im Süden wie Karluk gab es danach eine direkte Interaktion zwischen Türken und Iranern. Auch die Oghuz migration.

Bitte entschuldigen Sie mein schlechtes Deutsch.

Thats sounds plausible. Just one think that i know which is definitely true: Before migration to horasan some oghuz groups had deep relation to iranic groups. i need to find out which but my book is not here where i am.

[Mejgusu]

Which Turkics? The North Caucasian Turkics are mostly assimilated locals, just like the Ossetians by the way. And don't tell me about their Mongoloid percentage, Circassians/Kabardians score practically the same amount as Karachay-Balkars, for example and they don't speak a Turkic language.

Yes also Caucasian tukics. But i meant Tatars, bashirs ans cuvas.

[Kyp]

Überprüfen Sie das Ergebnis, das ich gepostet habe. Türken bekommen eine große Menge ugrischer Beimischung. Die Quelle sollte die Botai Kultur sein. Dies ist das Ergebnis der Botai Sample:

Distance to: KAZ_Botai
0.18326932 Tlingit
0.18566524 Udmurt
0.19745294 Saami
0.19873387 Besermyan
0.20088058 Mansi
0.20293442 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.20456979 Khanty
0.20768231 Bashkir
0.21352932 Ket
0.21400819 Mari
0.21770470 Tatar_Siberian
0.21908207 Chuvash
0.22400652 Komi
0.22582419 Greenlander_West
0.23080867 Tatar_Kazan
0.24263002 Tatar_Lipka
0.24499823 Shor_Mountain
0.24506144 Yukagir_Forest
0.24523981 Tubalar
0.24662247 Shor_Khakassia
0.24760396 Uzbek
0.24837333 Tajik_Shugnan
0.24935293 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.25007105 Tatar_Mishar
0.25120628 Jatt_Pathak

Anstelle einer direkten Interaktion zwischen türkischen und iranischen Stämmen scheinen sich Türken mit ugrischen und von dort geerbten iranischen Beimischungen zu vermischen. Denken Sie daran, ich habe Ihnen eine Bevölkerung erwähnt, die der Vater der meisten Türken anstelle des Altai war. Dies ist die Wurzel für N, R und J. Es war ugrisch. Es bildete sich auch später Uralic durch Mischen mit Türken.

Im Süden wie Karluk gab es danach eine direkte Interaktion zwischen Türken und Iranern. Auch die Oghuz migration.

Bitte entschuldigen Sie mein schlechtes Deutsch.

Ich weiß noch sehr wenig über die Ugrische Entstehungsgeschichte und von ihren Modellierungen (muss ich noch nachholen)

Gutes Deutsch btw :thumb001:

[Friedrich Ulrich]

Überprüfen Sie das Ergebnis, das ich gepostet habe. Türken bekommen eine große Menge ugrischer Beimischung. Die Quelle sollte die Botai Kultur sein. Dies ist das Ergebnis der Botai Sample:

Distance to: KAZ_Botai
0.18326932 Tlingit
0.18566524 Udmurt
0.19745294 Saami
0.19873387 Besermyan
0.20088058 Mansi
0.20293442 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.20456979 Khanty
0.20768231 Bashkir
0.21352932 Ket
0.21400819 Mari
0.21770470 Tatar_Siberian
0.21908207 Chuvash
0.22400652 Komi
0.22582419 Greenlander_West
0.23080867 Tatar_Kazan
0.24263002 Tatar_Lipka
0.24499823 Shor_Mountain
0.24506144 Yukagir_Forest
0.24523981 Tubalar
0.24662247 Shor_Khakassia
0.24760396 Uzbek
0.24837333 Tajik_Shugnan
0.24935293 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.25007105 Tatar_Mishar
0.25120628 Jatt_Pathak

Anstelle einer direkten Interaktion zwischen türkischen und iranischen Stämmen scheinen sich Türken mit ugrischen und von dort geerbten iranischen Beimischungen zu vermischen. Denken Sie daran, ich habe Ihnen eine Bevölkerung erwähnt, die der Vater der meisten Türken anstelle des Altai war. Dies ist die Wurzel für N, R und J. Es war ugrisch. Es bildete sich auch später Uralic durch Mischen mit Türken.

Im Süden wie Karluk gab es danach eine direkte Interaktion zwischen Türken und Iranern. Auch die Oghuz migration.

Bitte entschuldigen Sie mein schlechtes Deutsch.

Bütün konu sonucunda bu günün dünyasında türklerin %86sının caucasian olduğu genetik çalışmalarla netleştirildi fakat proto türkler mongoloid grubundan mı ayrıldılar yoksa avrupa gruplarından önce mi koptular proto türklerin ilk kültürleri incelendiği zaman genetik olarak caucasian ırkına karşılık geliyor bizim kültürlerimiz afanseyevo kültürünü ilk kültürümüz kabul ediyorsak mongoloid ailesiyle zerre alakamız olmuyor andronovo kültüründen sonra doğuya göçüyor türkler şuan bilim dünyasının proto türkler hakkındaki bu muallak hâlini gerçekten rahatsız edici buluyorum.Okuduklarına göre sana hangisi daha mantıklı geliyor bana avrupai gruplardan ayrılmamız daha oturaklı geliyor kültürleri dikkate alırsak

[Kaspias]

Thats sounds plausible. Just one think that i know which is definitely true: Before migration to horasan some oghuz groups had deep relation to iranic groups. i need to find out which but my book is not here where i am.


Ich weiß noch sehr wenig über die Ugrische Entstehungsgeschichte und von ihren Modellierungen (muss ich noch nachholen)

Gutes Deutsch btw :thumb001:

It explains these mysteries too:
-The Proto-Turkic language of Chuvash besides being genetically Ugric.
-How is N more common than Q among Turks?
-Derivation of Uralic language and genetically hybrid Turkic-Ugric Uralic race.

Yet it is not covering the whole Turkic world, there are also some effects of European-like Steppe and Iranic tribes. (direct interaction) Importance of these all should be changing time to time and tribe to tribe.

For Oghuz migration, I don't have a specific thought for now but wonder what makes such close relations between Iranic tribes and Oghuz which resulted as an alliance with Farsi.


Bütün konu sonucunda bu günün dünyasında türklerin %86sının caucasian olduğu genetik çalışmalarla netleştirildi fakat proto türkler mongoloid grubundan mı ayrıldılar yoksa avrupa gruplarından önce mi koptular proto türklerin ilk kültürleri incelendiği zaman genetik olarak caucasian ırkına karşılık geliyor bizim kültürlerimiz afanseyevo kültürünü ilk kültürümüz kabul ediyorsak mongoloid ailesiyle zerre alakamız olmuyor andronovo kültüründen sonra doğuya göçüyor türkler şuan bilim dünyasının proto türkler hakkındaki bu muallak hâlini gerçekten rahatsız edici buluyorum.Okuduklarına göre sana hangisi daha mantıklı geliyor bana avrupai gruplardan ayrılmamız daha oturaklı geliyor kültürleri dikkate alırsak

Altay ve batısında Moğollardan ayrı Altay dili konuşan bir halk olmalı. O bölgedeki bozkırın yerlileri Neolitik başı ve öncesinde doğulu avcı toplayıcılar idi, ve onlar Ugrik karakteristik gösteriyorlar. Bu ayrı Altay dili konuşan halkın ilk olarak bunlarla temas kurdukları kesin. Aynı zamanda bu avcı toplayıcılar Altay'dan daha önce Kafkas ve İrani grupları ile temas kurdular. Bu iki grubun birleştiğini düşün(paternity ağırlıkla Altay olmayan kısım, ancak dili Altay veriyor), daha sonra popülasyonunu arttırıp yayıldıkça daha farklı gruplarla temas kuruyorlar. Bunların başında Germanic-like Steppe ve İrani gruplar geliyor.

Proto-Türkler için belirli bir kültür iddia edebilir miyiz? Bilmiyorum. Ama Ugric akrabalığını edebileceğimizi düşünüyorum. Öte yandan, İrani karışımı sadece sonradan asimilasyon ile kazanılmış bir şey değil Ugrik karışımından beri mevcut olan bir şey. Nitekim J, R, G gördüğümüzde asimile laftası vurmak saçmalığın daniskası.

Ama bir nedenden dolayı günümüz bilimi bu asimilasyon damgasını Türklere vurmaya çalışıyor, önümüzdeki yıllarda bol bol Demir çağ ve Orta Çağ arası Orta Asyalı İrani konulu makaleler göreceksiniz.

[Marmara]

FACT: Original Turks were J2 near easterners who moved in Mongolia and bred with Asiatics. Turks are originally an arabic race.

[Kyp]

It explains these mysteries too:
-The Proto-Turkic language of Chuvash besides being genetically Ugric.
-How is N more common than Q among Turks?
-Derivation of Uralic language and genetically hybrid Turkic-Ugric Uralic race.

Yet it is not covering the whole Turkic world, there are also some effects of European-like Steppe and Iranic tribes. (direct interaction) Importance of these all should be changing time to time and tribe to tribe.

For Oghuz migration, I don't have a specific thought for now but wonder what makes such close relations between Iranic tribes and Oghuz which resulted as an alliance with Farsi.



Altay ve batısında Moğollardan ayrı Altay dili konuşan bir halk olmalı. O bölgedeki bozkırın yerlileri Neolitik başı ve öncesinde doğulu avcı toplayıcılar idi, ve onlar Ugrik karakteristik gösteriyorlar. Bu ayrı Altay dili konuşan halkın ilk olarak bunlarla temas kurdukları kesin. Aynı zamanda bu avcı toplayıcılar Altay'dan daha önce Kafkas ve İrani grupları ile temas kurdular. Bu iki grubun birleştiğini düşün(paternity ağırlıkla Altay olmayan kısım, ancak dili Altay veriyor), daha sonra popülasyonunu arttırıp yayıldıkça daha farklı gruplarla temas kuruyorlar. Bunların başında Germanic-like Steppe ve İrani gruplar geliyor.

Proto-Türkler için belirli bir kültür iddia edebilir miyiz? Bilmiyorum. Ama Ugric akrabalığını edebileceğimizi düşünüyorum. Öte yandan, İrani karışımı sadece sonradan asimilasyon ile kazanılmış bir şey değil Ugrik karışımından beri mevcut olan bir şey. Nitekim J, R, G gördüğümüzde asimile laftası vurmak saçmalığın daniskası.

Ama bir nedenden dolayı günümüz bilimi bu asimilasyon damgasını Türklere vurmaya çalışıyor, önümüzdeki yıllarda bol bol Demir çağ ve Orta Çağ arası Orta Asyalı İrani konulu makaleler göreceksiniz.

I don't understand one point: You are saying it's not assimilation of J R G etc because it already existed in Ugric people (if I understood correctly) but you are also saying that Ugric people took over Altai language. Doesn't that make it assimilation of these lines too?

[Kaspias]

I don't understand one point: You are saying it's not assimilation of J R G etc because it already existed in Ugric people (if I understood correctly) but you are also saying that Ugric people took over Altai language. Doesn't that make it assimilation of these lines too?

It is a perfect example of assimilation.

Either Iranic(despite being only 20-30% of gene pool) assimilated Ugric and they spoke IE or Ugric assimilated newcomer IE speakers and mixed with them. Assimilated under Ugric.

This group is assimilated under Altai afterward. But this process happens around the period which Botai was present and just after. My point here is there is not such an Iranic input which affected entire Turkic world in late IA and afterward. It was more like regional mixing in some tribes. These kind of mixes might boosted J and R in some, but they were already present and searching an additional Iranic root for them may be unnecessary.

[Kyp]

It is a perfect example of assimilation.

Either Iranic(despite being only 20-30% of gene pool) assimilated Ugric and they spoke IE or Ugric assimilated newcomer IE speakers and mixed with them. Assimilated under Ugric.

This group is assimilated under Altai afterward. But this process happens around the period which Botai was present and just after. My point here is there is not such an Iranic input which affected entire Turkic world in late IA and afterward. It was more like regional mixing in some tribes. These kind of mixes might boosted J and R in some, but they were already present and searching an additional Iranic root for them may be unnecessary.

Yes makes sense. I think you misunderstood me. I wasnt trying to proof Iranic input or anything, I just was wondering how these lineages became Turkic speaking.

[Demhat]

Yes makes sense. I think you misunderstood me. I wasnt trying to proof Iranic input or anything, I just was wondering how these lineages became Turkic speaking.

But isn't the spred of Ugric languages connected specifically to N and Q subtypes though? Let's take Selkups (Central Asian Ugrics) as example. They are dominated by yDNA Q. with 15% of R1a. The Other Ugric groups are dominated by N.

So does it actually make more sense to connect the origin of J and R lineages in Turkic people to Ugrics though? While two among the most dominant Haplogroup branches in Iranics are J, R and G (with allot of other less important Haplogroups)? Doesn't it sound more plausible that this is via Iranics?

[Friedrich Ulrich]

It explains these mysteries too:
-The Proto-Turkic language of Chuvash besides being genetically Ugric.
-How is N more common than Q among Turks?
-Derivation of Uralic language and genetically hybrid Turkic-Ugric Uralic race.

Yet it is not covering the whole Turkic world, there are also some effects of European-like Steppe and Iranic tribes. (direct interaction) Importance of these all should be changing time to time and tribe to tribe.

For Oghuz migration, I don't have a specific thought for now but wonder what makes such close relations between Iranic tribes and Oghuz which resulted as an alliance with Farsi.



Altay ve batısında Moğollardan ayrı Altay dili konuşan bir halk olmalı. O bölgedeki bozkırın yerlileri Neolitik başı ve öncesinde doğulu avcı toplayıcılar idi, ve onlar Ugrik karakteristik gösteriyorlar. Bu ayrı Altay dili konuşan halkın ilk olarak bunlarla temas kurdukları kesin. Aynı zamanda bu avcı toplayıcılar Altay'dan daha önce Kafkas ve İrani grupları ile temas kurdular. Bu iki grubun birleştiğini düşün(paternity ağırlıkla Altay olmayan kısım, ancak dili Altay veriyor), daha sonra popülasyonunu arttırıp yayıldıkça daha farklı gruplarla temas kuruyorlar. Bunların başında Germanic-like Steppe ve İrani gruplar geliyor.

Proto-Türkler için belirli bir kültür iddia edebilir miyiz? Bilmiyorum. Ama Ugric akrabalığını edebileceğimizi düşünüyorum. Öte yandan, İrani karışımı sadece sonradan asimilasyon ile kazanılmış bir şey değil Ugrik karışımından beri mevcut olan bir şey. Nitekim J, R, G gördüğümüzde asimile laftası vurmak saçmalığın daniskası.

Ama bir nedenden dolayı günümüz bilimi bu asimilasyon damgasını Türklere vurmaya çalışıyor, önümüzdeki yıllarda bol bol Demir çağ ve Orta Çağ arası Orta Asyalı İrani konulu makaleler göreceksiniz.

Mongoloid kökenli bir grup değil ugric ve caucasian diyebiliriz o zaman doğru muyum

[Chelubey]

I have two versions: Asian and European.
1) Taking into account that the Scythians and Sarmatians were Turkic-speaking, we can assume that somewhere at the end of the 2nd millennium / at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC , the Turkization of the steppe population took place. The Asian component in the culture and genetics of Scythians paves the way for this hypothesis.
2) The Turkic language possible comes from some steppe culture like Andronovo.
After migration of the steppe population to Europe and India, there is a consolidation of the remaining (possibly earlier numerous) steppe languages. In Scythian time unified cultural and linguistic space is formed from Easten Europe to Siberia. Next came the reverse process of disintegration.
Ps. I also think that the Oguzic people descend from the Scythians who settled after hiking in the Middle East. Turkmens may have come to modern Turkmenistan from the south, not from the north. This version explains well why there are big genetic differences between Oguzic turks and non-Oguzic turks even in Central Asia.

[Eline]

But isn't the spred of Ugric languages connected specifically to N and Q subtypes though? Let's take Selkups (Central Asian Ugrics) as example. They are dominated by yDNA Q. with 15% of R1a. The Other Ugric groups are dominated by N.

So does it actually make more sense to connect the origin of J and R lineages in Turkic people to Ugrics though? While two among the most dominant Haplogroup branches in Iranics are J and R (with allot of other less important Haplogroups)? Doesn't it sound more plausible that this is via Iranics?R1a in Central Asian Turks is most likely related to Saka R1a in Pakistan and India. So, it could also be related do Vedic Indic Saka (Indo-Aryan) people.

[Eline]

Haplogroups such as E, G2, J1 and J2 etc. in Central Asian Mongoloid people came most likely from the ancient Iranians (BMAC) and maybe Tocharians

[Eline]

people forget that the major migration of IEan people before the Russians/Slavics into Mongoloid lands in Central Asia was mostly Tocharian.

And according to my knowledge Tocharians were J2a, G2a and R1b people

[Kaspias]

Mongoloid kökenli bir grup değil ugric ve caucasian diyebiliriz o zaman doğru muyum

Kökenden kasıta bağlı, y-dna daha çok Batı Avrasyalı ve mt-dna daha çok Doğu Avrasyalı. Taşıdığı meta populasyonlar Türki, Ugor, İrani, Avrupai bozkır halkları olarak tanımlanabilir. Tüm bu karışıklıktan dolayı belirli bir gruba sokmak zor, kökü çok eskiye dayanan bir süreç var.


But isn't the spred of Ugric languages connected specifically to N and Q subtypes though? Let's take Selkups (Central Asian Ugrics) as example. They are dominated by yDNA Q. with 15% of R1a. The Other Ugric groups are dominated by N.

So does it actually make more sense to connect the origin of J and R lineages in Turkic people to Ugrics though? While two among the most dominant Haplogroup branches in Iranics are J and R (with allot of other less important Haplogroups)? Doesn't it sound more plausible that this is via Iranics?

This is not a problem, because it is all about mutual relations between Ugric and Turkic, and it is changing tribe to tribe as I said. Chuvash is a decent example of being mostly Ugric yet speaking the closest language to proto-Turkic.

It actually indeed might be boosted by Iranic after IA especially during Oghuz migration and close Turkic settlements to SCA, but this influence is very limited compared to the entire Turkic world, and we can't claim that Turks assimilated Iranic tribes at that time period by looking genetics. If we are going to find a source for such haplogroups, we should check the connection Ugric and Altaic as I explained till now, also we should question how different types of Altaic languages emerged. Baikal comes out as Proto-Turkic and differs from Mongolian like Altaic samples, what if I would say Proto-Turkic Altaic's itself have only 50% Altaic - which caused the emerging of Turkic language?

Target: RUS_Baikal_N
Distance: 5.5625% / 0.05562500
52.0 RUS_Fofonovo_En = Altaic
32.6 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 = Steppe
13.2 USA_Alaska_TrailCreek_9000BP = Siberian
2.2 RUS_Progress_En = Ugric+Iranic

So why are we still looking for a source to explain R?

[Eline]

How old do they estamate Turkic languages to be?

proto-Iranic might be as old as the Hittite (like Luwian from Anatolian IEan in West Asia) and could predate Yamnaya, so I would say 7000 years old. The spilt between West and East Iranic took place maybe 4500 years ago (around the beginning of the Eastern Iranic BMAC).

[Chelubey]

Yes I don't believe in the "mixed" population theory for Proto-Turks tbh.
It is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of knowledge.
Take for example tribe Dulat.
Here is just a small part of the knowledge about Turkic-Mongolian relations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B
(Google translator):


Ethnicity of Dulat
The question of the ethnicity of the Dulats has repeatedly been the subject of controversy for many researchers - some considered them to come from the Mongolian steppes (Rashid ad-Din, V.V. Bartold, Ch. Ch. Valikhanov), others - the Turks (N. A. Aristov, S. Amanzholov, V.V. Vostrov, M.S. Mukanov). According to Turkic theory, the ethnic basis of the Dulat was made up of the tribes of the West Turkic Kaganate (VI century), known in written sources as the “Dulu” (five Dulu tribes and five Nushibi tribes are residents of the Seven Rivers. In 840, the Dulat became part of the Karakhanid state (840–1212), then the Khitan (Kara-Sin, 1124–1219) and finally the Mongols.In the Chagatai Ulus (1224–1348), later the Dulates founded their own Manglai state Sube. [3]

Haplogroup
Dulats are one of the clans in the large Uysun tribal association. The haplogroup C2-M217 [4] [5] is characteristic of the Uysuns and Dulats. Genetically, the Uysuns from the peoples of Central Asia are most close to the bayats living in the aimak of the UVS in northwestern Mongolia [4].

The haplogroup C3-starcluster (now referred to as C2 * -M217), according to J. M. Sabitov, reflects the genetic contribution of the Nirun-Mongols, the descendants of Bodonchar (ancestor of the Douglas and other Mongolian genera) [5].

[Friedrich Ulrich]

Kökenden kasıta bağlı, y-dna daha çok Batı Avrasyalı ve mt-dna daha çok Doğu Avrasyalı. Taşıdığı meta populasyonlar Türki, Ugor, İrani, Avrupai bozkır halkları olarak tanımlanabilir. Tüm bu karışıklıktan dolayı belirli bir gruba sokmak zor, kökü çok eskiye dayanan bir süreç var.



This is not a problem, because it is all about mutual relations between Ugric and Turkic, and it is changing tribe to tribe as I said. Chuvash is a decent example of being mostly Ugric yet speaking the closest language to proto-Turkic.

It actually indeed might be boosted by Iranic after IA especially during Oghuz migration and close Turkic settlements to SCA, but this influence is very limited compared to the entire Turkic world, and we can't claim that Turks assimilated Iranic tribes at that time period by looking genetics. If we are going to find a source for such haplogroups, we should check the connection Ugric and Altaic as I explained till now, also we should question how different types of Altaic languages emerged. Baikal comes out as Proto-Turkic and differs from Mongolian like Altaic samples, what if I would say Proto-Turkic Altaic's itself have only 50% Altaic - which caused the emerging of Turkic language?

Target: RUS_Baikal_N
Distance: 5.5625% / 0.05562500
52.0 RUS_Fofonovo_En = Altaic
32.6 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 = Steppe
13.2 USA_Alaska_TrailCreek_9000BP = Siberian
2.2 RUS_Progress_En = Ugric+Iranic

So why are we still looking for a source to explain R?

O zaman şuanki halimizi ciddiye almak daha mantıklı gibi :) senin bahsettiğin şekilde düşünüyordum avrupai bir kökeni düşünüyorum şuanki ip uçlarıyla o yola gidiyor fakat step halkı olduğu kesin.Günümüz türklerinin caucasoid grubunda olması günümüz dünyasında nelere yol açacak izlemek istiyorum sadece

[Friedrich Ulrich]

Kökenden kasıta bağlı, y-dna daha çok Batı Avrasyalı ve mt-dna daha çok Doğu Avrasyalı. Taşıdığı meta populasyonlar Türki, Ugor, İrani, Avrupai bozkır halkları olarak tanımlanabilir. Tüm bu karışıklıktan dolayı belirli bir gruba sokmak zor, kökü çok eskiye dayanan bir süreç var.



This is not a problem, because it is all about mutual relations between Ugric and Turkic, and it is changing tribe to tribe as I said. Chuvash is a decent example of being mostly Ugric yet speaking the closest language to proto-Turkic.

It actually indeed might be boosted by Iranic after IA especially during Oghuz migration and close Turkic settlements to SCA, but this influence is very limited compared to the entire Turkic world, and we can't claim that Turks assimilated Iranic tribes at that time period by looking genetics. If we are going to find a source for such haplogroups, we should check the connection Ugric and Altaic as I explained till now, also we should question how different types of Altaic languages emerged. Baikal comes out as Proto-Turkic and differs from Mongolian like Altaic samples, what if I would say Proto-Turkic Altaic's itself have only 50% Altaic - which caused the emerging of Turkic language?

Target: RUS_Baikal_N
Distance: 5.5625% / 0.05562500
52.0 RUS_Fofonovo_En = Altaic
32.6 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4 = Steppe
13.2 USA_Alaska_TrailCreek_9000BP = Siberian
2.2 RUS_Progress_En = Ugric+Iranic

So why are we still looking for a source to explain R?

Sadece yüzde 10 civarı orta asyalıyım tatar baskın onda da fakat bu bilinmezlik çok ilgimi çektiği için bayrağıdır araştırıyorum

[mutabor]

Because Turkmens carry high percentages of haplogroup Q ( up to 40%) they should be the first Turkic tribe which began migration into Central Asia. Only Turkmens and Bashkirs have sound -TH- in their languages. Turkmens passed their language in Bashkiria then they moved south along Caspian sea where they met in a desert nomadic Iranian tribes. Because Turkmens and Iranians who lived in deserted Turkmenistan were both nomads their intermixing became faster. The accent of Turkmen people is closer to the accent of Northern Iranian people. While the accent of Karluks ( Uzbeks and Uyghurs) has Eastern Iranian accent of settled population of Tajiks. The process of intermixing with settled Tajiks took longer period.

Another possible reason why Turkmens have -TH- sound is because there was a Greco-Baktrian kingdom and Greeks have -TH- sound. If Turkmens picked sound -TH- in Southern Siberia then it could only be the influence of haplogroup R1b because this sound used to be widespread among Germanic languages but later disappeared in most of them. R1b is common among some Bashkir tribes and maybe Turkmens borrowed this sound from such tribes.

Because Turkmens mixed with Northern Iranians their interaction was with other Northern Iranian tribes along southern Caspian shores.

[Fedora]

Because Turkmens carry high percentages of haplogroup Q ( up to 40%) they should be the first Turkic tribe which began migration into Central Asia. Only Turkmens and Bashkirs have sound -TH- in their languages. Turkmens passed their language in Bashkiria then they moved south along Caspian sea where they met in a desert nomadic Iranian tribes. Because Turkmens and Iranians who lived in deserted Turkmenistan were both nomads their intermixing became faster. The accent of Turkmen people is closer to the accent of Northern Iranian people. While the accent of Karluks ( Uzbeks and Uyghurs) has Eastern Iranian accent of settled population of Tajiks. The process of intermixing with settled Tajiks took longer period.

Another possible reason why Turkmens have -TH- sound is because there was a Greco-Baktrian kingdom and Greeks have -TH- sound. If Turkmens picked sound -TH- in Southern Siberia then it could only be the influence of haplogroup R1b because this sound used to be widespread among Germanic languages but later disappeared in most of them. R1b is common among some Bashkir tribes and maybe Turkmens borrowed this sound from such tribes.

Because Turkmens mixed with Northern Iranians their interaction was with other Northern Iranian tribes along southern Caspian shores.

Turkmens passed their language in Bashkiria?!?!? What does that mean :D

[Synapsid]

It is a perfect example of assimilation.

Either Iranic(despite being only 20-30% of gene pool) assimilated Ugric and they spoke IE or Ugric assimilated newcomer IE speakers and mixed with them. Assimilated under Ugric.

This group is assimilated under Altai afterward. But this process happens around the period which Botai was present and just after. My point here is there is not such an Iranic input which affected entire Turkic world in late IA and afterwards. It was more like regional mixing in some tribes. These kind of mixes might boosted J and R in some, but they were already present and searching an additional Iranic root for them may be unnecessary.

TBH, sorry but your theory seems to be baseless. Botai was pred. EHG+WSHG with only some amount of NE Asian (Devil Gates) ancestry. Such a population went extinct by the time WSH/PIE populations began to occupy the same zone that Botai once occupied. They probably spoke a language completely unrelated to Uralic except by ANE connections, like Amerind languages.

See this 25monte model using K11 10 kybp WHG-EHG calculator:

Target Distance Amerind=RUS_Kolyma_Meso CHG=GEO_CHG EHG=RUS_Karelia_HG
KAZ_Botai:BOT2016 0.09228647 32.2 2.2 65.6
Average 0.09228647 32.2 2.2 65.6

Botai is model as Rus_Kolyma (Ancestral Native American/Paleo-Ancient Siberian)+EHG despite the target containing Devil_Gates. This is of-course a proxy, not the actual component of Botai, but it goes to show you how distinct Botai is from contemporary Siberian and Central Asian populations. Botai is a dead end that did not contribute to modern populations.

[Mejgusu]

TBH, sorry but your theory seems to be baseless. Botai was pred. EHG+WSHG with only some amount of NE Asian (Devil Gates) ancestry..

Whats that?

[Dr_Maul]

people forget that the major migration of IEan people before the Russians/Slavics into Mongoloid lands in Central Asia was mostly Tocharian.

And according to my knowledge Tocharians were J2a, G2a and R1b people

iirc Tocharians were almost fully R1a+R1b

[Yaglakar]

Some Turks on this forum like to downplay the relation of the Turkics to the Mongols.

To be fair the date of presumed split is so ancient that if one goes back several thousand years more he would have witnessed 'black Koreans' (ancestors of ancestors of proto-Turco-Mongols) running around North East Asia. South Siberian origin is also very unlikely in my view.

[Yigidiz]

FACT: Original Turks were J2 near easterners who moved in Mongolia and bred with Asiatics. Turks are originally an arabic race.

not FACT but FAKE, you have written
You have written really ignorant, arab and Türk two wildly different race and ethnicity arabs come from sami (afro-asian) race which is family with hami (afro negro) race and turks come from yafes (central asian)/(ural-altaic ) race which is related to fin-ugors and thus modern Europeans and the j2 gene did not originate in Arab areas such as suudi arabia yemen sudan and does not belong to a single race, Europeans also have j2, it is a question of how and where it originated, possibly area between the north of Iran and the south of Central Asia, the northern part of the Middle East for approx. 20,000 years ago when we can't talk about today's races so we can talk about proto turco irani where the influence of the Turks in those areas but not at all Arabs and Farsi and similar black skin people population that originates from the southern part of the Middle East
Some Turks are assimilated into Arabic religion Islam some think they are Arabs or Farsi and speak Arabic language which is influenced by their native language Turkish but that still does not make them Arabs but unfortunately makes them Arabic speaking Middle Eastern population.