Cosentian MyHeritage (Calabria, Southern Italy)

[Samnium]

Cosenza

https://www.embajadadeitalia.org/media/mapas/Calabria/Provincia-de-Cosenza.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/Vj6pUAf.png


Very high Sardinian and very decreased "MENA" for a Southern Italian.

Comparison with a sample from Messina :

https://i.imgur.com/DxajV18.png

The first sample scores no Ashkenazi Jewish neither Middle Eastern in comparison. Higher Southern Euro (without counting Ashkenazim).

Now I had guessed many months ago that maybe Cosenza had a more elevated EEF/Sardinian like component.

It's interesting because it seems this province has a lot of Greek ancestry as well, 60% Greek and South Italian.

[dududud]

Gedmatch?

[Samnium]

Gedmatch?

No gedmatch unfortunately, I would try to find it

[Moulder]

No Norman blood this time...

[gixajo]

Cosenza



It's interesting because it seems this province has a lot of Greek ancestry as well, 60% Greek and South Italian.

It´s really so difficult to separate Greek Dna and South Italian?

[Samnium]

It´s really so difficult to separate Greek Dna and South Italian?

Yes and not, Greeks are on average more Eastern shifted and Northern shifted than Southern Italians. They are still close people, even if there are outliers that are halfway between Greeks and Levantines.

Typically a Greek from mainland would show some "Balkan" category (I don't know well MyHeritage but something like that) in addition to this category I would say.


No Norman blood this time...

I've always wondered about that honestly. I think it's not very common, and people who would have retained it are more in isolated/endogamous places.

I think it can explain the introduction of some "light" alleles (even if not all of them), in my italian family for example (I have redheads cousins but also many blue/light eyed relatives).

[gixajo]

Yes and not, Greeks are on average more Eastern shifted and Northern shifted than Italians. They are still close people, even if there are outliers that are halfway between Greeks and Levantines.

Typically a Greek from mainland would show some "Balkan" category (I don't know well MyHeritage but something like that) in addition to this category I would say.

Other test companies do it better than MH?

[xripkan]

It´s really so difficult to separate Greek Dna and South Italian?

At 23andme I score 10% Apulian ancestry. I have no ancestry from Italy and there was never a settlement from Apulia to Greece, especially Mainland Greece where I am from.
Apparently the algorithm reads a part of my DNA as Apulian.
The problem is even bigger for Islanders who are more Mediterranean in genetics terms and they score 20-25% Sicilian. So even if I don't trust Myheritage (23andme is much better I think) the creation category Greek and South Italian was a good move especially for Greek Islanders who are very similar to Southern Italians.

[gixajo]

At 23andme I score 10% Apulian ancestry. I have no ancestry from Italy and there was never a settlement from Apulia to Greece, especially Mainland Greece where I am from.
Apparently the algorithm reads a part of my DNA as Apulian.
The problem is even bigger for Islanders who are more Mediterranean in genetics terms and they score 20-25% Sicilian. So even if I don't trust Myheritage (23andme is much better I think) the creation category Greek and South Italian was a good move especially for Greek Islanders who are very similar to Southern Italians.

So, who influenced more in the oher genetically in your opinion, greeks in Italians or Italians in Greeks?i mean, relating it with historic population movements.

Or maybe there is not such genetic influence and only test companies algortims are still too accurate and are not able to discriminate them?


i ask also for your opinion Samnium.

[Lucas]

I've always wondered about that honestly. I think it's not very common, and people who would have retained it are more in isolated/endogamous places.

I think it can explain the introduction of some "light" alleles (even if not all of them), in my italian family for example (I have redheads cousins but also many blue/light eyed relatives).

About Normans. Isn't they were exclusively gentry / knights in South Italy and Sicily. What about pigmentation of modern aristocrats from this area?

[Samnium]

About Normans. Isn't they were exclusively gentry / knights in South Italy and Sicily. What about pigmentation of modern aristocrats from this area?

I don't know about the local nobility, while it's true that Normans came only in few thousands, they have surely left something in areas that are quite isolated (that have retained very old influences).

From some models Molisans samples can be sampled with a small % of Longobard (models with Imperial Roman sources and so on) for example. And Molise is a very "inland" region with mountainous profile and very low population.

However I think for my family it's more linked to a recent event than "Normans", in the 16th century a group of soldiers of Charles V (probably some hundreds) were left near the place of my ancestors, they became farmers and craftmens so I guess it's more that than anything else.

[xripkan]

So, who influenced more in the oher genetically in your opinion, greeks in Italians or Italians in Greeks?i mean, relating it with historic population movements.

Or maybe there is not such genetic influence and only test companies algortims are still too accurate and are not able to discriminate them?


i ask also for your opinion Samnium.

The populations of Southern Italy and Greece were similar genetically since prehistoric times.
The massive Greek colonization during Iron Age in South Italy and Sicily made the peoples of these two regions even more similar because since then the peoples of South Italy had a considerable amount of Greek ancestry.
During Byzantine era there were also some migrations from Greece to Southern Italy. There are also some communities in Salento of Apulia and in Calabria where a Greek dialect still survives there. Actually we are not sure if the Greek dialects of South Italy are from ancient or Medieval/Byzantine Greek settlers.
Some Greeks also went to Italy even the post-Byzantine era during the Ottman times.
The Italian settlements in Greece were much more limited. There is no registered massive settlement during Roman times. During late Middle-Ages and early Modern period when the Greek Islands were occupied by Northern Italian cities the settlement from Italy is again limited according to the historical sources. Furthermore genetic results don't indicate any ancestry from Northern Italy. Greek islanders score always Sicily, not Veneto or Lombardia. However there are few cases of Greeks with Italian haplogroups.
There are two reasons why Greeks Islanders are closer to Sicily and Calabria than Greek Mainlanders are.
The first reason is that Mainland Greeks during Middle Ages mixed with Slavs and other Steppe people from the North more than Greek Islanders did. The Steppe people settled Mainland Greece and were assimilated by the locals. As a result modern Greeks are considerably more northern shifted compared to Ancient Greeks.
The second reason is that both Sicilians and Calabrians on the one hand and Greeks Islanders on the other hand mixed with people from Western Asia and Levant. Both these groups score Eastern components. So they are very close to each other.
Apulia is the only area of South Italy that has not recieved any significant MENA input. On the contrary it has recieved higher Steppe input from other Italians and from Greeks of the late Byzantine and post Byzantine era and other Balkan groups. This makes this region closer to Mainland Greece genetically in comparison to the other regions. Of course it is still more Southern shifted than Mainland Greece.
This is the reason why many southern Greek Mainlnaders score Apulia at 23andme. Because they are somewhat southern-shifted. So a part of the DNA is read at 23andme as Apulian, a region genetically similar to Mainland Greece but more Southern shifted.

[Dick]

About Normans. Isn't they were exclusively gentry / knights in South Italy and Sicily. What about pigmentation of modern aristocrats from this area?


I don't know about the local nobility, while it's true that Normans came only in few thousands, they have surely left something in areas that are quite isolated (that have retained very old influences).

From some models Molisans samples can be sampled with a small % of Longobard (models with Imperial Roman sources and so on) for example. And Molise is a very "inland" region with mountainous profile and very low population.

However I think for my family it's more linked to a recent event than "Normans", in the 16th century a group of soldiers of Charles V (probably some hundreds) were left near the place of my ancestors, they became farmers and craftmens so I guess it's more that than anything else.

Normans first came as pilgrims and later became mercenaries serving at various times the Byzantines and a number of Lombard nobles. Later on when some became Nobles they had offspring from more than one concubine.

[Kamal900]

It would be nice to see gedmatch kit to see it's accurate results and all that since commercial DNA calculators is pure kaka, especially MyHeritage.

[Dick]

What about pigmentation of modern aristocrats from this area?


This Robert Guiscard was Norman by birth, of obscure origins, with an overbearing character and a thoroughly villainous mind; he was a brave fighter, very cunning in his assaults on the wealth and power of great men; in achieving his aims absolutely inexorable, diverting criticism by incontrovertible argument. He was a man of immense stature, surpassing even the biggest men; he had a ruddy complexion, fair hair, broad shoulders, eyes that all but shot out sparks of fire. In a well-built man one looks for breadth here and slimness there; in him all was admirably well-proportioned and elegant... Homer remarked of Achilles that when he shouted his hearers had the impression of a multitude in uproar, but Robert’s bellow, so they say, put tens of thousands to flight

Robert Guiscard from the 14th-century manuscript Nuova Cronica

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Robert_guiscard.jpg

[Lucas]

Robert Guiscard from the 14th-century manuscript Nuova Cronica

]

Simply greatest chad of his time.

[Samnium]

It would be nice to see gedmatch kit to see it's accurate results and all that since commercial DNA calculators is pure kaka, especially MyHeritage.

Yeah it's a shame that I don't have the gedmatch of all these interesting results...

However I'm sure that he has low "MENA" for a Southern Italian, commercial autosomal results can predict that.