Germanic Dorian Invasion of Greece.

[Anaximander]

The Dorian Hellenes were a Germanic tribe, who came from the Hallstat culture of the Alpine region.

This theory is supported genetically by the presence of Haplogroup I2a2a2-P78-A427 and Y7219, in mainland Greece.

https://i.imgur.com/HkmPN9o.gif

This Haplogroup seem to correspond with the light eyes maps that exist on the internet.

https://i.imgur.com/vyy83JJ.jpg

Seems to correspond also with the proposed by Georgiev and Duridanov Proto-Greek speaker's fatherland, in continental Greece.

https://i.imgur.com/P78aBHD.png

What are your thoughts?

[Dr_Maul]

Are you Dorian?

[Tauromachos]

If they were Germanic they were not Hellenic

[Lyonnais]

man,not u as well..you have been infected by the whitewashing disease.

[Jana]

LOOOOL

xD

[Anaximander]

LOOOOL

xD

Also the absence of I2a1 (Dinaric) Balkanic haplogroup from these Areas.
https://i.imgur.com/qe9n5un.gif

[Lousianaboy]

HELLENICS WERE PARTLY SLAVIC, THEY WERE A INDO EUROPEAN GROUP NOT EXACTLY GERMANIC, PROBABLY THEY CAME FROM RUSSIAN STEPPES OR CAUCASUS, THRACIANS WERE THEIR ANCESTORS, READ THE BOOKS ABOUT GREEKS

[catgeorge]

Dorian invasion wasn't an invasion.

The skeletons found during the Dorian peiord were mostly Cro Mags/Alpines and Meds. My theory it was a reverse migration from where Thessalian Neolithic and Early LBK met - possibly wars or lack of fertile ground/seawater/ forced them to migrate back southwards after intermixing with Early LBK for ~2000 years

So I would label Dorians as Thessalian Neolithic + Early LBK

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/312/5782/1875.2/F1.large.jpg

[Tauromachos]

I don't know what to do with all this

What i know is that about Dorians everything has been claimed,that they came from the North that they were Germanic,that they were Poles,South Slavs,Ancient Albanians,Montenegers everything except that they were Greek

[catgeorge]

I don't know what to do with all this

About Dorians though everything has been claimed,that they came from the North that they were Germanic,that they were Poles,South Slavs,Ancient Albanians,Montenegers everything except that they were Greek

The Greeks of Greeks of Greeks.

[Jana]

Also the absence of I2a1 (Dinaric) Balkanic haplogroup from these Areas.
https://i.imgur.com/qe9n5un.gif

It's a Slavic marker :)

[Voskos]

Nice.

[Anaximander]

Dorian invasion wasn't an invasion.

The skeletons found during the Dorian peiord were mostly Cro Mags/Alpines and Meds. My theory it was a reverse migration from where Thessalian Neolithic and Early LBK met - possibly wars or lack of fertile ground/seawater/ forced them to migrate back southwards after intermixing with Early LBK for ~2000 years

So I would label Dorians as Thessalian Neolithic + Early LBK

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/312/5782/1875.2/F1.large.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ieVaJIZ.png

[xripkan]

We have samples from Mycenaean era and samples from Iron Age much later the collapse of Mycenaean world and the Dorian domination. These samples are identical. This proves that Dorians were not different than other Greek tribes.

[catgeorge]

https://i.imgur.com/ieVaJIZ.png

Yes probably a little bit of Alpine Celtic but mostly Neolithic.

[Tauromachos]

We have samples from Mycenaean era and samples from Iron Age much later the collapse of Mycenaean world and the Dorian domination. These samples are identical. This proves that Dorians were not different than other Greek tribes.

Its what most likely has been the case

[Anaximander]

I don't know what to do with all this

What i know is that about Dorians everything has been claimed,that they came from the North that they were Germanic,that they were Poles,South Slavs,Ancient Albanians,Montenegers everything except that they were Greek

By the time they started coming , there wasnt such thing as Greek, dont get confused
As for they language, they most possibly spoke Greek language

[Anaximander]

HELLENICS WERE PARTLY SLAVIC, THEY WERE A INDO EUROPEAN GROUP NOT EXACTLY GERMANIC, PROBABLY THEY CAME FROM RUSSIAN STEPPES OR CAUCASUS, THRACIANS WERE THEIR ANCESTORS, READ THE BOOKS ABOUT GREEKS

Which book do u recommend?

[Tauromachos]

By the time they started coming , there wasnt such thing as Greek, dont get confused
As for they language, they most possibly spoke Greek language

I think you are confused about the Dorians and their relation to earlier Greeks the Mycanaeans

Hint read what the previous poster i quoted said also read about the Return of the Heraklidae

[catgeorge]

It was a reverse migration

[Voskos]

Dorians were probably just Thessalians or Epirots. Nothing to do with North Europeans imo.

[Tauromachos]

Dorians were probably just Thessalians or Epirots. Nothing to do with North Europeans imo.

I do not even believe that

Dorians were descendants from Mycanaean South Greeks who were forced to go Northward by other Mycanaeans after an internal conflict.

In North Greece they allied with local natives who were maybe like todays Sarakatsani and with united forces they returned to the South
to conquer back

[Crn Volk]

OP is a prime example of an undiluted Germanic Dorian invader

[Tauromachos]

OP is a prime example of an undiluted Germanic Dorian invader

I can hardly think of Dorians being able to invade anyone if they were like him

[Crn Volk]

Mycenaean
http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/2017/11/image_5403_3-Griffin-Warrior.jpg

[Tauromachos]

Mycenaean
http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/2017/11/image_5403_3-Griffin-Warrior.jpg

More similar to Greek Rom"Gypsy"

[Dick]

Amazing content. I hope your thread gets more views. Keep up the amazing work.

[Tauromachos]

Amazing content. I hope your thread gets more views. Keep up the amazing work.

What is the content here you find so amazing?

Anything in particular or just the general content?

[Freeroostah]

Mycenaean
http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/2017/11/image_5403_3-Griffin-Warrior.jpg

Thats the closest I could find (swarthiest spectrum of Greeks)
https://i.imgur.com/RQio4Zj.jpg

[Dick]

What is the content here you find so amazing?

Anything in particular or just the general content?
2 thumbs up

:thumbs

[Renekton]

Bump

[Ülev]

Bump

+1

[SharpFork]

We have samples from Mycenaean era and samples from Iron Age much later the collapse of Mycenaean world and the Dorian domination. These samples are identical. This proves that Dorians were not different than other Greek tribes.
The sample from Spain? We have no idea where it's from, if we want to be sure of how Dorians looked like let's actually wait for proper samples from mainland Doric or NW Greece.

[xripkan]

The sample from Spain? We have no idea where it's from, if we want to be sure of how Dorians looked like let's actually wait for proper samples from mainland Doric or NW Greece.

They were from the ancient Greek city of Emporion (Empuries) in Spain. They are identical to Myceneaens. It is a proof that ancient Greeks did not change genetically from Mycenaean period untill 4th century BC ( and probably untill the Hellenistic era).

[SharpFork]

They were from the ancient Greek city of Emporion (Empuries) in Spain. They are identical to Myceneaens. It is a proof that ancient Greeks did not change genetically from Mycenaean period untill 4th century BC ( and probably untill the Hellenistic era).
It's not proof of anything, if it's Phocaean it came from Ionian Anatolia, hardly the best specimen for "Dorians"

[Faklon]

Dorians were EV13 niggers, Pelops means black-faced.

His descendant Hercules was an ancient basketaball player that got Mycenaean passport,

https://www.pedestrian.tv/content/uploads/2014/07/TheRockHerculesPassOutChains-619-386.jpg

Pelops reconstruction,

https://www.truthdig.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Screen-Shot-2019-09-24-at-11.32.30-AM.png

[xripkan]

It's not proof of anything, if it's Phocaean it came from Ionian Anatolia, hardly the best specimen for "Dorians"

Dorians dominated the Greek world uring 1100 BC. The Greek cities and the whole Greek world were in interaction during the Antiquity. The ancient Greeks were not isolated in every city or region so they could not be very different genetically.
The Greek samples of Empuries are dated to 4th century BC. If Dorians that had dominated Greece during the 11th century BC were a genetically different population, the Greeks of 4th century BC would not be identical to Mycenaeans.

[Faklon]

Here's an essay on Dorians (probably posted over 100 years in the last 6-7 years here).

http://www.casa-kvsa.org.za/1969/AC12-03-Dietrich.pdf

There is no evindence to support they could have been a different people.


Dorians dominated the Greek world uring 1100 BC. The Greek cities and the whole Greek world were in interaction during the Antiquity. The ancient Greeks were not isolated in every city or region so they could not be very different genetically.
The Greek samples of Empuries are dated to 4th BC. If a genetically different population had dominated Greece during the 11th century BC the Greeks of 4th century BC would not be idential to Mycenaeans.

Why couldn't they have mixed with ancient Catalans?

[xripkan]

Here's an essay on Dorians (probably posted over 100 years in the last 6-7 years here).

http://www.casa-kvsa.org.za/1969/AC12-03-Dietrich.pdf

There is no evindence to support they could have been a different people.



Why couldn't they have mixed with ancient Catalans?

You mean Empuries samples? They do not seem to have Celtic/Iberian admixture.

[SharpFork]

Dorians dominated the Greek world uring 1100 BC. The Greek cities and the whole Greek world were in interaction during the Antiquity. The ancient Greeks were not isolated in every city or region so they could not be very different genetically.
The Greek samples of Empuries are dated to 4th century BC. If Dorians that had dominated Greece during the 11th century BC were a genetically different population, the Greeks of 4th century BC would not be identical to Mycenaeans.
Greeks are very genetically different today even when you just look at Aegeans and Mainland Greeks, there is absolutely no reason why they would be homogeneous when they were divided in city states that had very strict laws on citizenship and when they were divided ethnically, politically and linguistically.

[SharpFork]

Here's an essay on Dorians (probably posted over 100 years in the last 6-7 years here).

http://www.casa-kvsa.org.za/1969/AC12-03-Dietrich.pdf

There is no evindence to support they could have been a different people.
Where did the Dorian dialect magically come from? Why was there ethnic conflict in various archaic Greek states between Dorians and non-Dorians, with people clearly having the ability to distinguish themselves centuries after the supposedly non existent Dorians came?

There is plenty of evidence for the existence of Dorians. Mycenean Greeks didn't magically wake up on day speaking a different dialect and considering themselves different in very specific set of territory.

[xripkan]

Greeks are very genetically different today even when you just look at Aegeans and Mainland Greeks, there is absolutely no reason why they would be homogeneous when they were divided in city states that had very strict laws on citizenship and when they were divided ethnically, politically and linguistically.

The samples of Mycenaeans are from different places and they indicate they were quite similar. The reason why modern Greeks are different genetically is beacause of the Slavic/Steppe invasions in Mainland Greece that did not happen in islands.
In islands a higher West Asian admixture comparing to Mainland Greece is evident. Furthermore the Hellenization of native populations of Anatolia during the post-Hellenistic era made Greeks even more different genetically.
Ancient Greeks were possibly somewhat different but much less than modern Greeks.

[Faklon]

Where did the Dorian dialect magically come from? Why was there ethnic conflict in various archaic Greek states between Dorians and non-Dorians, with people clearly having the ability to distinguish themselves centuries after the supposedly non existent Dorians came?

There is plenty of evidence for the existence of Dorians. Mycenean Greeks didn't magically wake up on day speaking a different dialect and considering themselves different in very specific set of territory.

Of course none will read the article.

Later evolution of dialects is irrelevant, Attic is different than Mycenaean Greek too.

[SharpFork]

The samples of Mycenaeans are from different places and they indicate they were quite similar. The reason why modern Greeks are different genetically is beacause of the Slavic/Steppe invasions in Mainland Greece that did not happen in islands.
In islands a higher West Asian admixture comparing to Mainland Greece is evident. Furthermore the Hellenization of native populations of Anatolia during the post-Hellenistic era made Greeks even more different genetically.
Ancient Greeks were possibly somewhat different but much less than modern Greeks.
Mycenean samples are not homogeneous, one of them has almost no Steppe ancestry, one has little and other 2 have substantial amounts, the samples without Steppe also has elevated ancestry from MENA. This on top of the fact that all those samples were from either the southern Peloponnesus or Salamis, very close to one another. We have no samples north of Athens.

The difference in Greeks is not tude to just "Slavs", modern Aegeans look different from Minoan and Mycenean samples too, there is no reason to believe that the samples we have now tell everything about Iron Age Greek genetics, not even close. Just look at how much the studies on Latium, Tuscany and Sicily revealed.

[SharpFork]

Of course none will read the article.

Later evolution of dialects is irrelevant, Attic is different than Mycenaean Greek too.

There are thousands of articles, will you respond to all single articles from modern scholars that support the existence of Dorians during the early Iron Age?

Dialects are not irrelevant, languages don't magically arise out of nowhere with the borders and ties the Greek dialects have.

[Faklon]

You mean Empuries samples? They do not seem to have Celtic/Iberian admixture.

Isn't it Italian(SW)-like?


There thousands of articles, will you respond to all single articles from modern scholars that support the existence of Dorians during the early Iron Age?

Dialects are not irrelevant, languages don't magically arise out of nowhere with the borders and ties the Greek dialects have.

Dialects are not languages, the language is the same and we don't know much about Myceneans.


Another set is the semivowels /j w/ and the glottal fricative /h/ between vowels. All were lost in standard Attic Greek, but /w/ was preserved in some Greek dialects and written as digamma ⟨ϝ⟩ or beta ⟨β⟩.

It is unclear how the sound transcribed as ⟨z⟩ was pronounced. It may have been a voiced or voiceless affricate /dz/ or /ts/, marked with asterisks in the table above. It derives from [kʲ], [ɡʲ], [dʲ] and some initial [j] and was written as ζ in the Greek alphabet. In Attic, it may have been pronounced [zd] in many cases, but it is [z] in Modern Greek.


Ionics were an invansion too?

Many of these scholars are debated in the article if you could spend one minute instead of wishful thinking.

[Ethel]

oh, another complexed southern euro overestimating germanic input in his country

[SharpFork]

Dialects are not languages, the language is the same and we don't know much about Myceneans.
So what if it is the same language, there can be no ethnic identity without a dsitinct language? There can be no invasion if they merely spoke different dialects apparently.
Big brain argument.


Ionics were an invansion too?
Greek sources don't talk about Ionians invading, they talk about them being driven out by chain migrations started by others.



Many of these scholars are debated in the article if you could spend one minute instead of wishful thinking.
He doesn't talk about linguistics or even really address different arguments, nice try. He merely criticzes and entire idea wholesale without questioning whether parts of the old idea really come in a package, Dorians could have existed without completely replacing everything where they came to rule.

It's a fucking 6 page pdf and you treat it as if it answers everything

[xripkan]

Mycenean samples are not homogeneous, one of them has almost no Steppe ancestry, one has little and other 2 have substantial amounts, the samples without Steppe also has elevated ancestry from MENA. This on top of the fact that all those samples were from either the southern Peloponnesus or Salamis, very close to one another. We have no samples north of Athens.

The difference in Greeks is not tude to just "Slavs", modern Aegeans look different from Minoan and Mycenean samples too, there is no reason to believe that the samples we have now tell everything about Iron Age Greek genetics, not even close. Just look at how much the studies on Latium, Tuscany and Sicily revealed.

The main difference of Myceneans samples is the level of Steppe admixture. It makes sense to me since they were dated between 1500-1300 BC amd they were from different places. As a result the level of Steppe admixture is different. This is not a big difference. The Western Asian components existed to some extent both to Minoans and Mycenaeans.
About Modern Aegeans I told you that they have extra Western Asian admixture from the late Antiquity or even later.
I suggest you to read the artice about the origin of Minoans and Mycenaeans.
Furthermore even non-Greek ancient Balkan populations seem to be close to ancient Greek samples. Check BGR_IA and Deu_MA_str300. They plot close to ancient Greeks. It seems that existed a genetic continuum in ancient Balkans.

[SharpFork]

The main difference of Myceneans samples is the level of Steppe admixture. It makes sense to me since they were dated between 1500-1300 BC amd they were from different places. As a result the level of Steppe admixture is different. This is not a big difference. The Western Asian components existed to some extent both to Minoans and Mycenaeans.
About Modern Aegeans I told you that they have extra Western Asian admixture from the late Antiquity or even later.
I suggest you to read the artice about the origin of Minoans and Mycenaeans.
So? Dorians would probably also "only" differ in some amounts of Steppe and MENA admixture, not sure why you think there has to be a huge difference for it to matter.


Furthermore even non-Greek ancient Balkan populations seem to be close to ancient Greek samples. Check BGR_IA and Deu_MA_str300. They plot close to ancient Greeks. It seems that existed a genetic continuum in ancient Balkans.
BGR_IA has quite some more Steppe ancestry and less MENA ancestry, look if you think those 2 are the same you might as well say Greeks were like Etruscans or Spaniards, those are real differences.

A genetic continuum doesn't refute nor change the fact we still don't know if a genetic change happened with the bronze collapse in mainland Greece, we need more samples, from more parts of Greece and see if the linguistical division follows genetics and to what extent.

[Faklon]

So what if it is the same language, there can be no ethnic identity without a dsitinct language? There can be no invasion if they merely spoke different dialects apparently.
Big brain argument.


Greek sources don't talk about Ionians invading, they talk about them being driven out by chain migrations started by others.


He doesn't talk about linguistics or even really address different arguments, nice try. He merely criticzes and entire idea wholesale without questioning whether parts of the old idea really come in a package, Dorians could have existed without completely replacing everything where they came to rule.

Same culture with the same language and a separate dialect is by no means a different people, and there is no such thing as ethnics in antiquity.

The whole shit about Dorians is based upon a guy Dorieus pillaging Pylos, if I pillage my middle-classy sister's house would mean that we are not related and I constitute the race of Faklonians idiot?

[kleenex]

Dorians were most likely about 70% ENF, 10% CHF, 20% IE so probably similar to BA Balkans.

[SharpFork]

Same culture with the same language and a separate dialect is by no means a different people, and there is no such thing as ethnics in antiquity.
No ethnics in antiquity? Lmao you have freaking non-Dorians overthrowing Dorian aristocrats in Archaic Greece and outright instituting mass mockery of Dorians through new institute tribes and you say there is no "ethnics" in antiquity, sure.

It's not up to you to say who is a people or not, it's pretty clear that "pan-Hellenism" was secondary to both polis, tribal and ethnic identity, Greece political history up to Philipp II shows that. Greeks might have been a "people", but it doens't mean there were no meaningful and real differences between Greeks or internal categories.


The whole shit about Dorians is based upon a guy Dorieus pillaging Pylos, if I pillage my middle-classy sister's house would mean that we are not related and I constitute the race of Faklonians idiot?
If people start considering themselves different and if whole dialects are associated with such identity, then yes a new (sub)ethnic group is formed.

[Dorian]

Very emotional for a "Meta-Ethnicity Indo-European Ethnicity East Slavic, Germanic, Indo-Aryan".

[Faklon]

No ethnics in antiquity? Lmao you have freaking non-Dorians overthrowing Dorian aristocrats in Archaic Greece and outright instituting mass mockery of Dorians through new institute tribes and you say there is no "ethnics" in antiquity, sure.

It's not up to you to say who is a people or not, it's pretty clear that "pan-Hellenism" was secondary to both polis, tribal and ethnic identity, Greece political history up to Philipp II shows that. Greeks might have been a "people", but it doens't mean there were no meaningful and real differences between Greeks or internal categories.


If people start considering themselves different and if whole diaects are associated with such identity, then yes.


Everything was secondary to Polis, Dorian dialects fought against Dorian dialects and Ionic dialects fought against Ionic dialects. Polis rules, not "ethnics"/cultural identities or dialects.

There are no Mycenaeans after the Bronze Age collapse to consider themselves different.

[xripkan]

So? Dorians would probably also "only" differ in some amounts of Steppe and MENA admixture, not sure why you think there has to be a huge difference for it to matter.


BGR_IA has quite some more Steppe ancestry and less MENA ancestry, look if you think those 2 are the same you might as well say Greeks were like Etruscans or Spaniards, those are real differences.

A genetic continuum doesn't refute nor change the fact we still don't know if a genetic change happened with the bronze collapse in mainland Greece, we need more samples, from more parts of Greece and see if the linguistical division follows genetics and to what extent.

I will try to explain what i mean. Mycenaeans=Minoans (pre-Greeks) + Extra Steppe (from Proto-Greeks who came in Greece during the 2nd millenium BC and brought in Greece the Greek language). Mycenaean samples differ to the amount of Proto-Greek ancestry. Some are more Minoan-like with less Steppe. This makes sense since some of them are dated back to 1500BC (not very far from the era the Proto-Greeks arrived). It is obvious that the time and place determines the amount of Steppe each sample has.
Empuries Greeks plot with Myceneans (there is a sample who is Minoan-shfted). Most Mycenaeans have the same amount of Steppe with Empuries Greeks. It seems no genetic changed happened in the meanwhile. Greeks were divided in political terms but they interacted and they mixed among them. It is known. This is why I say that it seems Dorians were similar to other Greek tribes.
You can also use the Vahaduo PCA to see how Minoans, Mycenaeans and Empuries Greek plot.

[PaleoEuropean]

I2 has been found all over though, my haplo is found from Ireland to the Caucus.

[SharpFork]

Everything was secondary to Polis, Dorian dialects fought against Dorian dialects and Ionic dialects fought against Ionic dialects. Polis rules, not "ethnics"/cultural identities or dialects.
This doesn't change the fact those ethnic identities and dialects with very peculiar borders and stories attached to them exists and came from somewhere.


There are no Mycenaeans after the Bronze Age collapse to consider themselves different.
Doric and non-doric identitites existed, this is not up to debate. There were Ionians, Arcadians and Aeolians still.

[SharpFork]

I will try to explain what i mean. Mycenaeans=Minoans (pre-Greeks) + Extra Steppe (from Proto-Greeks who came in Greece during the 2nd millenium BC and brought in Greece the Greek language). Mycenaean samples differ to the amount of Proto-Greek ancestry. Some are more Minoan-like with less Steppe. This makes sense since some of them are dated back to 1500BC (not very far from the era the Proto-Greeks arrived). It is obvious that the time and place determines the amount of Steppe each sample has.
Empuries Greeks plot with Myceneans (there is a sample who is Minoan-shfted). Most Mycenaeans have the same amount of Steppe with Empuries Greeks. It seems no genetic changed happened in the meanwhile. Greeks were divided in political terms but they interacted and they mixed among them. It is known. This is why I say that it seems Dorians were similar to other Greek tribes.
You can also use the Vahaduo PCA to see how Minoans, Mycenaeans and Empuries Greek plot.
Like I said it's NOT enough to have so few samples from very different places and times and use them to say absolute statement about the genetics of Greeks throughout the Mycenean period and Iron age throughout all of the Greek world.

Maybe the difference is going to be "merely" a population having 10% Steppe vs another 25% but it can still exist and follow certain patterns.

[SharpFork]

Very emotional for a "Meta-Ethnicity Indo-European Ethnicity East Slavic, Germanic, Indo-Aryan".
What's your problem?

[xripkan]

Like I said it's NOT enough to have so few samples from very different places and times and use them to say absolute statement about the genetics of Greeks throughout the Mycenean period and Iron age throughout all of the Greek world.

About the genetic of Greeks during the Mycenaean period we can use absolut statement. Read the proof:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
About Dorians, maybe we are not 100% sure (we are 99%) but with the data we have and the historic knowledge what else could some hypothetical Dorian samples be if not Mycenaean-like? Amerinidian maybe?

[SharpFork]

About the genetic of Greeks during the Mycenaean period we can use absolut statement. Read the proof:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
About Dorians, maybe we are not 100% sure (we are 99%) but with the data we have and the historic knowledge what else could some hypothetical Dorian samples be if not Mycenaean-like? Amerinidian maybe?
It could be BGR_IA like, which is different, your "Mycenean-like" includes everything, 5-15% differences in components such as ENF or Steppe are not little.

[xripkan]

It could be BGR_IA like, which is different, your "Mycenean-like" includes everything, 5-15% differences in components such as ENF or Steppe are not little.

Actually I suspect that Ancient Greeks in Northern Greece could be like this sample:

DEU_MA_o:STR_300,0.125205,0.165531,-0.001886,-0.05491,0.024004,-0.015339,0.009165,0.010384,0.003681,0.029887,0.003 41,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.006331,-0.029044,-0.005304,0.002868,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.016758,-0.007237,0.009645,0.008381,0.00253,-0.004191

It plots between Mycenaeans and BGR_IA (closer to BGR_IA). BGR_IA has a shift to West Med peoples which is not obvious to this sample. Maybe Dorians were like this sample.

[SharpFork]

Actually I suspect that Ancient Greeks in Northern Greece could be like this sample:

DEU_MA_o:STR_300,0.125205,0.165531,-0.001886,-0.05491,0.024004,-0.015339,0.009165,0.010384,0.003681,0.029887,0.003 41,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.006331,-0.029044,-0.005304,0.002868,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.016758,-0.007237,0.009645,0.008381,0.00253,-0.004191

It plots between Mycenaeans and BGR_IA (closer to BGR_IA). BGR_IA has a shift to West Med peoples which is not obvious to this sample. Maybe Dorians were like this sample.

...that's a German medieval sample?

[xripkan]

...that's a German medieval sample?

This is an outlier. it is found in 5th century Bavaria. There are different opinions about the origin. Either from Greece or from Ancient Balkans. Actually it plots near to Ancient Greek samples but has more Steppe (close to BGR_IA). It could be a mix of Greeks and Thracians.

[SharpFork]

This is an outlier. it is found in 5th century Bavaria. There are different opinion about the origin. Either from Greece or from Ancient Balkans. Actually it plots near to Ancient Greek samples but has more Steppe (close to BGR_IA). It could be a mix of Greeks and Thracians.
I mean I hope you can see where I am coming from, having 7 samples for about a millenia of history in Greece and Bulgaria is far from ideal, given we have to rely to anachronistic sample in another entire part of Europe.

[xripkan]

Isn't it Italian(SW)-like?



No, they don't seem to have such admixture.

[Tauromachos]

Ancient Greeks were possibly somewhat different but much less than modern Greeks.

This ,diversity rather increased than decrease throughout the ages

However still today most Greek groups are fairly close to one another and the basic most relevant parts of their ancestry are same or come from similar sources

[JohnnyP]

[7] "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division."

[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."

[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."

[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.

[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."

-Eugene Borza
Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University.

Please this guys who calling themselfs Greeks , needs to stop with all nonsense.

[Tauromachos]

[7] "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division."

[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."

[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."

[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.

[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."

-Eugene Borza
Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University.

Please this guys who called themselfs Greeks , needs to stop with all nonsense.


The Dorians were ancient Slavo Makedoniczski named after their forefather Doroslav Epiric

[JohnnyP]

The Dorians were ancient Slavo Makedoniczski named after their forefather Doroslav Epiric

Your sarcasm will not cover truth and your delusional behaviour.

[Tauromachos]

Your sarcasm will not cover truth and your delusional behaviour.

Slavo Makedonsku sarcasmu no coverowski fantasicski delusionitzki di Ancienitzka identicska Makedonicska

[JohnnyP]

Slavo Makedonsku sarcasmu no coverowski fantasicski delusionitzki di Ancienitzka identicska Makedonicska

Okay real germano-"greek" dorian warrior.

[Tauromachos]

Okay real germano-"greek" dorian warrior.

Germanovski Grekanski Doru Makedonsku Slav

[xripkan]

This ,diversity rather increased than decrease throughout the ages

However still today most Greek groups are fairly close to one another and the basic most relevant parts of their ancestry are same or come from similar sources

Would you say that the difference between Northern Greeks and Dodecanesians for example is minor?

[Tauromachos]

Would you say that the difference between Northern Greeks and Dodecanesians for example is minor?

No but you do what all here do you compare the two extremes at the opposite ends of the spectrum

Why not compare South Greeks from regions with the least Slavic influence to Cyclade Islanders or people from Samos instread?

[xripkan]

No but you do what all here do you compare the two extremes at the opposite ends of the spectrum

Why not compare South Greeks from regions with the least Slavic influence to Cyclade Islanders or people from Samos instread?

Yes Peloponnesians who are in the middle of the Greek genetic continuum are close to most Greek Mainlanders and Cyclades Islanders. But even these have a significant distance to Dodecanesians, Thracians and even more Anatolian Greeks. There are groups which are close enough and groups which are not. It is not bad to admit it.

[Tauromachos]

Yes Peloponnesians who are in the middle of the Greek genetic continuum are close to most Greek Mainlanders and Cyclades Islanders. But even these have a significant distance to Dodecanesians, Thracians and even more Anatolian Greeks. There are groups which are close enough and groups which are not. It is not bad to admit it.

And we have to go by the groups that are the least close to figure how the original ancient Greeks were like?

In fact i did a thread were i compared a Peloponnesian Greek"Korinthian" to a Dodecanese Islander
here you can see:https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?239556-gedmatch-quot-Mainlander-quot-South-West-Peloponnese-quot-to-Islander-quot-Dodecanese-quot

[xripkan]

And we have to go by the groups that are the least close to figure how the original ancient Greeks were like?

In fact i did a thread were i compared a Peloponnesian Greek"Korinthian" to a Dodecanese Islander
here you can see:https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?239556-gedmatch-quot-Mainlander-quot-South-West-Peloponnese-quot-to-Islander-quot-Dodecanese-quot

No this is irrelevant to ancient Greeks. It has to do with modern Greeks.
I doubt the differences are so small. Check

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.9671% / 0.01967061
65.8 Greek_Crete
34.2 CZE_Early_Slav

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.2657% / 0.02265727
70.6 Greek_Crete
29.4 CZE_Early_Slav

Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.5724% / 0.01572350
85.6 Greek_Crete
14.4 CZE_Early_Slav

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.3870% / 0.02386989
81.8 Greek_Crete
18.2 CZE_Early_Slav

[Tauromachos]

No this is irrelevant to ancient Greeks. It has to do with modern Greeks.
I doubt the differences are so small. Check

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.9671% / 0.01967061
65.8 Greek_Crete
34.2 CZE_Early_Slav

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.2657% / 0.02265727
70.6 Greek_Crete
29.4 CZE_Early_Slav

Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.5724% / 0.01572350
85.6 Greek_Crete
14.4 CZE_Early_Slav

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.3870% / 0.02386989
81.8 Greek_Crete
18.2 CZE_Early_Slav


If it is irrelevant to Ancient Greeks why do you post it?

The discussion here was mainly about Dorians and if or how different they were from other Ancient Greek groups
Mycanaeans,Ionians or whatever

[xripkan]

If it is irrelevant to Ancient Greeks why do you post it?

The discussion here was mainly about Dorians and if or how different they were from other Ancient Greek groups
Mycanaeans,Ionians or whatever

I just said to SharpFork that the fact that Modern Greeks are different it does not mean ancient Greeks were also different. You started the conversation based on that. If you think we should not talk about that why did you start?

[Tauromachos]

I just said to SharpFork that the fact that Modern Greeks are different it does not mean ancient Greeks were also different. You started the conversation based on that. If you think we should not talk about that why did you start?

No i was basicly agreeing to you

I just added that modern Greeks aren't even that different"thats were the basic misunderstanding lies between us" so how different could
ancient Greeks have been then when they were certainly less different than modern Greeks today

It didn't meant there is no real differences between modern Greeks from different regions of course there are

[SharpFork]

Modern Greeks aren't similar at all, Cypriots are closer to northern Levantines than to any other Greek, Pontic Greeks similarly are closer to many Near-Eastern populations than any Greek, Aegeans Greeks are closer to Southern Italians before they are close to northern Greeks.

Using bronze and iron age samples, this how Greeks look as a mixture of those populations, I even included Bronze Anatolians and the Iron Age Thracian in the Greek one:

https://i.imgur.com/iFovuHh.png

[xripkan]

Modern Greeks aren't similar at all, Cypriots are closer to northern Levantines than to any other Greek, Pontic Greeks similarly are closer to many Near-Eastern populations than any Greek, Aegeans Greeks are closer to Southern Italians before they are close to northern Greeks.

Using bronze and iron age samples, this how Greeks look as a mixture of those populations, I even included Bronze Anatolians and the Iron Age Thracian in the Greek one:

https://i.imgur.com/iFovuHh.png

Which references did you use?

[SharpFork]

Which references did you use?


Greek+Anatolian:GRC_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
Greek+Anatolian:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.17 0609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
Greek+Anatolian:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.11837 6,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Greek+Anatolian:BGR_IA,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.15 90993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.1 51991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747

Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0 .057494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.00429 5,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305, 0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Slavic:CZE_Early_Slav,0.12862,0.129988,0.068259,0. 046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706

Caucasian:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan,0.1092705,0.1284645,-0.0637335,-0.043282,-0.0460085,-0.004044,0.0110455,-0.007615,-0.06013,-0.0226885,0.0047905,0.008842,-0.0127105,0.0052985,0.0080755,6.65e-05,0.01017,-0.0001265,-0.0030795,-0.0010005,0.00992,-0.007728,0.001417,-0.0005425,-0.0002395
Caucasian:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535

Levantine:Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA,0.0921967,0.1462 363,-0.061722,-0.0915167,-0.0139513,-0.0366277,0.0032117,-0.008846,0.0072263,0.012635,0.015535,-0.015736,0.018781,0.0088997,-0.0078717,0.008972,-0.0043027,0.0013093,-0.0006287,-0.0070033,0.0020797,0.000371,-0.00608,0.002812,0.003832
Levantine:Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levantine:Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053

[xripkan]

Greek+Anatolian:GRC_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
Greek+Anatolian:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.17 0609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
Greek+Anatolian:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.11837 6,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Greek+Anatolian:BGR_IA,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.15 90993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.1 51991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747

Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0 .057494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.00429 5,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305, 0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Slavic:CZE_Early_Slav,0.12862,0.129988,0.068259,0. 046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706

Caucasian:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan,0.1092705,0.1284645,-0.0637335,-0.043282,-0.0460085,-0.004044,0.0110455,-0.007615,-0.06013,-0.0226885,0.0047905,0.008842,-0.0127105,0.0052985,0.0080755,6.65e-05,0.01017,-0.0001265,-0.0030795,-0.0010005,0.00992,-0.007728,0.001417,-0.0005425,-0.0002395
Caucasian:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535

Levantine:Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA,0.0921967,0.1462 363,-0.061722,-0.0915167,-0.0139513,-0.0366277,0.0032117,-0.008846,0.0072263,0.012635,0.015535,-0.015736,0.018781,0.0088997,-0.0078717,0.008972,-0.0043027,0.0013093,-0.0006287,-0.0070033,0.0020797,0.000371,-0.00608,0.002812,0.003832
Levantine:Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levantine:Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053


These references are not Anatolian. Anatolian peoples of classic Antiquity (Iron Age) and Byzantine era were quite different genetically. Actually these references are partly Mycenaean-like.

[SharpFork]

These references are not Anatolian. Anatolian peoples of classic Antiquity (Iron Age) and Byzantine era were quite different genetically. Actually these references are partly Mycenaean-like.
Stop with this "Mycenean-like" bullshit, they were not Mycenean like:

https://i.imgur.com/pxVFVyp.png

ENF:Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312 ,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
ENF:MKD_N:I0676,0.122929,0.182795,-0.000754,-0.103037,0.063704,-0.046296,-0.00376,-0.001385,0.046222,0.090571,0.01153,0.014837,-0.031516,0.003303,-0.042073,-0.011535,0.024251,0.005448,0.013701,-0.012006,-0.016346,0.011623,0.001109,0.00494,-0.007664
ENF:GRC_N:I5427,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
ENF:ROU_N:I2533,0.126344,0.187873,0.010936,-0.102068,0.060319,-0.055778,0.003055,-0.005769,0.044586,0.095492,0.001299,0.012589,-0.027948,-0.001376,-0.050488,-0.006762,0.034421,-0.000507,0.008547,-0.013381,-0.014974,0.007048,-0.003944,0.005904,-0.011137

Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0. 0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash,0.122929,0.08632,0. 039598,0.10756,-0.020619,0.046854,0.000705,-0.010384,-0.059107,-0.070525,-0.00682,0.002698,-0.005798,-0.027525,0.040445,0.0179,0.002868,-0.005954,-0.006662,0.009379,-0.011105,-0.003833,0.008874,0.026269,-0.00958
Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia,0.115189,0.092007,0 .0465368,0.1129864,-0.0276358,0.0420566,0.004371,-0.003646,-0.0539944,-0.0743522,-0.000942,0.0004496,-0.001011,-0.023616,0.0278496,0.0116148,0.0012254,-0.002559,0.0007542,0.0102548,-0.0042426,0.0005688,0.016244,0.0230152,-0.0035446
Steppe_IE:RUS_Afanasievo,0.1238692,0.0885718,0.041 1719,0.1122644,-0.0310693,0.0459564,0.0025033,-0.0017458,-0.058058,-0.077284,-0.0001412,-0.000189,-0.001325,-0.020392,0.0384738,0.0086529,-0.0092743,-0.0023906,-0.0035742,0.0096623,-0.0059515,0.0015913,0.013043,0.0233243,-0.0027958
Steppe_IE:RUS_Poltavka,0.1265063,0.087916,0.045631 6,0.1127279,-0.0251916,0.0459373,0.0048009,0.0003299,-0.053965,-0.0739619,0.002807,-0.0008994,0.0002973,-0.020152,0.033077,0.0128611,-0.0052899,-0.0019727,-0.0022626,0.0098974,-0.0050089,0.0029499,0.0127297,0.0193486,-0.0038833
Steppe_IE:RUS_Catacomb,0.1180912,0.0891127,0.04214 32,0.1069942,-0.03039,0.0482478,0.0027612,-0.0038075,-0.0572155,-0.0747625,0.0011772,0.0043085,0.0003342,-0.01999,0.035864,0.0046075,-0.0101375,-9.5e-05,-0.0035195,0.0100985,-0.0004058,0.0012982,0.0130953,0.0220512,-0.0058078

WHG:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso,0.1225497,0.1120467 ,0.2008793,0.2048907,0.1728527,0.0618207,0.0160593 ,0.0412293,0.108602,0.0271533,-0.0193243,-0.0143373,0.0162043,-0.0086703,0.0708007,0.069035,0.0002173,0.0120353,-0.0099303,0.0637807,0.118,0.0113347,-0.0608843,-0.1971763,0.021994
WHG:Iberia_Northwest_Meso,0.118376,0.088351,0.1621 62,0.17216,0.141565,0.0502,0.007285,0.035075,0.100 626,0.012392,-0.012017,-0.009292,0.022745,-0.00523,0.060531,0.056218,-0.021253,0.012415,-0.007919,0.085291,0.139254,0.024483,-0.068526,-0.254614,0.027662
WHG:I1875,0.130897,0.120848,0.191577,0.194447,0.15 9107,0.048248,0.015746,0.040152,0.087332,0.007472,-0.016076,-0.015436,0.017839,-0.003303,0.047909,0.047069,0.007302,0.018497,-0.003268,0.057027,0.087471,0.00915,-0.048436,-0.143153,0.01449
WHG:Rochedane,0.118376,0.111708,0.178001,0.184111, 0.150182,0.044623,0.010575,0.034383,0.090809,0.028 064,-0.014615,-0.016186,0.013974,-0.002752,0.058767,0.069344,0.002738,0.014189,-0.015335,0.054151,0.101446,0.013231,-0.050778,-0.178579,0.019519
WHG:England_Mesolithic,0.126344,0.110693,0.202891, 0.197031,0.157876,0.055778,0.010575,0.03346,0.0865 14,0.016583,-0.017863,-0.01139,0.014866,-0.001651,0.061481,0.065499,0.002477,0.009882,-0.005531,0.06353,0.116295,0.019661,-0.055954,-0.179664,0.019399
WHG:Wales_Meso,0.1160995,0.1157705,0.187806,0.1954 16,0.1629535,0.0642845,0.0243235,0.030691,0.091524 5,0.010023,-0.020055,-0.0059945,0.0049805,-0.0015825,0.061617,0.0646375,-0.001043,0.010135,-0.0043995,0.0596535,0.1056885,0.0183625,-0.047327,-0.175386,0.017783
WHG:BEL_Loschbour,0.133173,0.106631,0.20176,0.1921 86,0.164338,0.055778,0.00611,0.036922,0.096535,0.0 2278,-0.020786,-0.016186,0.024975,-0.007432,0.065824,0.063643,0.008084,0.006714,-0.013324,0.065281,0.120038,0.019166,-0.059405,-0.175687,0.022992
WHG:ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184 111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0 .018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928

Iranian:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Iranian:IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,0.0421147,0.063978 3,-0.1541163,0.0010767,-0.119407,0.0212883,0.0104187,-0.0023077,-0.0809913,-0.057283,-0.002436,-0.002148,0.0040137,-0.0096337,0.0314873,0.0555107,-0.0067363,0.0061233,0.0131143,-0.0351837,0.0062807,-0.0250607,-0.0085453,-0.0374753,0.019958
Iranian:IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
Iranian:IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso,0.052359,0.064994,-0.124073,0.043282,-0.112636,0.019522,0.003995,-0.007615,-0.071992,-0.053031,0.009906,0.008842,0.001933,-0.017616,0.030673,0.055157,0.004824,-0.010769,0.010559,-0.029389,0.001123,-0.013231,-0.00493,-0.022413,0.025507

Iranian:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036

Iranian:Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287

The "Iranian" label ought to be "Near Eastern" or somethnig like that.

[SharpFork]

These references are not Anatolian. Anatolian peoples of classic Antiquity (Iron Age) and Byzantine era were quite different genetically. Actually these references are partly Mycenaean-like.
Also we have no actual samples from Iron age(outside one East Eurasian admixed one) or Byzantine Anatolia, but apparently you magically know they were quite different, according to god knows what.

[xripkan]

del

[xripkan]

double

[Epirus DNA]

The Günther theory (discredited today), started by German Nazi scientist Hans K. Günther suggests that ancient Greeks were of the Nordic sub-race.

Günther himself, however, was very selective to his evidence and ignored proof that suggested otherwise, even when it came from his colleagues. More specifically Angel J. L’s A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks, 1942 later disproved the Günther theory. (Also: Lerna, a pre-classical site in the Argolid, 1971). Modern supporters of the Günther theory use as evidence the fact that some ancient Greek gods and others (ex: Achilles) are described as blonde - a very unscientific approach that we will debunk anyway. The ancient Greek perception of color was different from ours. Achilles is described as “Xanthos”, which in modern Greek does indeed mean blonde, however, it most probably did not in Homer’s time. We can verify this by the fact that when the Greeks met the Celts (A blonde tribe) described them as “White-haired”, which proves that “Xanthos” meant something entirely different. Aristotle himself compared the color to things that we would call brown today, so it probably meant brunet. Another reason why this is an unscientific approach is that blonde =/= Nordic, and there were definitely blonde Mediterranean people, just less common. It is known that Hitler himself did not believe in this theory but let it spread for propaganda purposes. This can be confirmed from his Mein Kampf quote “If the Germans in the ancient times lived in the south, they would have created a civilization similar to that of the Greeks”.

[xripkan]

Stop with this "Mycenean-like" bullshit, they were not Mycenean like:

https://i.imgur.com/pxVFVyp.png

ENF:Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312 ,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
ENF:MKD_N:I0676,0.122929,0.182795,-0.000754,-0.103037,0.063704,-0.046296,-0.00376,-0.001385,0.046222,0.090571,0.01153,0.014837,-0.031516,0.003303,-0.042073,-0.011535,0.024251,0.005448,0.013701,-0.012006,-0.016346,0.011623,0.001109,0.00494,-0.007664
ENF:GRC_N:I5427,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
ENF:ROU_N:I2533,0.126344,0.187873,0.010936,-0.102068,0.060319,-0.055778,0.003055,-0.005769,0.044586,0.095492,0.001299,0.012589,-0.027948,-0.001376,-0.050488,-0.006762,0.034421,-0.000507,0.008547,-0.013381,-0.014974,0.007048,-0.003944,0.005904,-0.011137

Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0. 0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash,0.122929,0.08632,0. 039598,0.10756,-0.020619,0.046854,0.000705,-0.010384,-0.059107,-0.070525,-0.00682,0.002698,-0.005798,-0.027525,0.040445,0.0179,0.002868,-0.005954,-0.006662,0.009379,-0.011105,-0.003833,0.008874,0.026269,-0.00958
Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia,0.115189,0.092007,0 .0465368,0.1129864,-0.0276358,0.0420566,0.004371,-0.003646,-0.0539944,-0.0743522,-0.000942,0.0004496,-0.001011,-0.023616,0.0278496,0.0116148,0.0012254,-0.002559,0.0007542,0.0102548,-0.0042426,0.0005688,0.016244,0.0230152,-0.0035446
Steppe_IE:RUS_Afanasievo,0.1238692,0.0885718,0.041 1719,0.1122644,-0.0310693,0.0459564,0.0025033,-0.0017458,-0.058058,-0.077284,-0.0001412,-0.000189,-0.001325,-0.020392,0.0384738,0.0086529,-0.0092743,-0.0023906,-0.0035742,0.0096623,-0.0059515,0.0015913,0.013043,0.0233243,-0.0027958
Steppe_IE:RUS_Poltavka,0.1265063,0.087916,0.045631 6,0.1127279,-0.0251916,0.0459373,0.0048009,0.0003299,-0.053965,-0.0739619,0.002807,-0.0008994,0.0002973,-0.020152,0.033077,0.0128611,-0.0052899,-0.0019727,-0.0022626,0.0098974,-0.0050089,0.0029499,0.0127297,0.0193486,-0.0038833
Steppe_IE:RUS_Catacomb,0.1180912,0.0891127,0.04214 32,0.1069942,-0.03039,0.0482478,0.0027612,-0.0038075,-0.0572155,-0.0747625,0.0011772,0.0043085,0.0003342,-0.01999,0.035864,0.0046075,-0.0101375,-9.5e-05,-0.0035195,0.0100985,-0.0004058,0.0012982,0.0130953,0.0220512,-0.0058078

WHG:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso,0.1225497,0.1120467 ,0.2008793,0.2048907,0.1728527,0.0618207,0.0160593 ,0.0412293,0.108602,0.0271533,-0.0193243,-0.0143373,0.0162043,-0.0086703,0.0708007,0.069035,0.0002173,0.0120353,-0.0099303,0.0637807,0.118,0.0113347,-0.0608843,-0.1971763,0.021994
WHG:Iberia_Northwest_Meso,0.118376,0.088351,0.1621 62,0.17216,0.141565,0.0502,0.007285,0.035075,0.100 626,0.012392,-0.012017,-0.009292,0.022745,-0.00523,0.060531,0.056218,-0.021253,0.012415,-0.007919,0.085291,0.139254,0.024483,-0.068526,-0.254614,0.027662
WHG:I1875,0.130897,0.120848,0.191577,0.194447,0.15 9107,0.048248,0.015746,0.040152,0.087332,0.007472,-0.016076,-0.015436,0.017839,-0.003303,0.047909,0.047069,0.007302,0.018497,-0.003268,0.057027,0.087471,0.00915,-0.048436,-0.143153,0.01449
WHG:Rochedane,0.118376,0.111708,0.178001,0.184111, 0.150182,0.044623,0.010575,0.034383,0.090809,0.028 064,-0.014615,-0.016186,0.013974,-0.002752,0.058767,0.069344,0.002738,0.014189,-0.015335,0.054151,0.101446,0.013231,-0.050778,-0.178579,0.019519
WHG:England_Mesolithic,0.126344,0.110693,0.202891, 0.197031,0.157876,0.055778,0.010575,0.03346,0.0865 14,0.016583,-0.017863,-0.01139,0.014866,-0.001651,0.061481,0.065499,0.002477,0.009882,-0.005531,0.06353,0.116295,0.019661,-0.055954,-0.179664,0.019399
WHG:Wales_Meso,0.1160995,0.1157705,0.187806,0.1954 16,0.1629535,0.0642845,0.0243235,0.030691,0.091524 5,0.010023,-0.020055,-0.0059945,0.0049805,-0.0015825,0.061617,0.0646375,-0.001043,0.010135,-0.0043995,0.0596535,0.1056885,0.0183625,-0.047327,-0.175386,0.017783
WHG:BEL_Loschbour,0.133173,0.106631,0.20176,0.1921 86,0.164338,0.055778,0.00611,0.036922,0.096535,0.0 2278,-0.020786,-0.016186,0.024975,-0.007432,0.065824,0.063643,0.008084,0.006714,-0.013324,0.065281,0.120038,0.019166,-0.059405,-0.175687,0.022992
WHG:ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184 111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0 .018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928

Iranian:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Iranian:IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,0.0421147,0.063978 3,-0.1541163,0.0010767,-0.119407,0.0212883,0.0104187,-0.0023077,-0.0809913,-0.057283,-0.002436,-0.002148,0.0040137,-0.0096337,0.0314873,0.0555107,-0.0067363,0.0061233,0.0131143,-0.0351837,0.0062807,-0.0250607,-0.0085453,-0.0374753,0.019958
Iranian:IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
Iranian:IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso,0.052359,0.064994,-0.124073,0.043282,-0.112636,0.019522,0.003995,-0.007615,-0.071992,-0.053031,0.009906,0.008842,0.001933,-0.017616,0.030673,0.055157,0.004824,-0.010769,0.010559,-0.029389,0.001123,-0.013231,-0.00493,-0.022413,0.025507

Iranian:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036

Iranian:Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287

The "Iranian" label ought to be "Near Eastern" or somethnig like that.


Also we have no actual samples from Iron age(outside one East Eurasian admixed one) or Byzantine Anatolia, but apparently you magically know they were quite different, according to god knows what.

Instead of attacking me I would suggest you to study more about genetics. You are just making wrong assumptions.
Neolithic South Greece + Isparta_EBA-like populations=Minoans
Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
Distance: 1.6432% / 0.01643208
74.0 GRC_Peloponnese_N
26.0 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
This is what I try to explain you that these references are wrong because they are somewhat ancestral to Ancient Greeks.
If you want to model with both Ancient Greek and Anatolia references you can just use the Ancient Greek samples and the Greek Central Anatolia sample which also contains some Mycenaean DNA.
You can also try populations like ARM_LBA, Iran_Hajji_Firuz and some Levant to capture the extra eastern genetic components modern Greeks have, comparing to Ancient Greeks.
Central Anatolian Greeks are the descendants of Anatolian populations of Byzantine empire. This is why these samples can be used as proxy for Medieval Anatolian populations.
Read here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-s-perspective
Furthermore we have an Anatolian Greek from the Ottoman era. Check
IND_Roopkund_B_o,0.108132,0.144205,-0.044123,-0.061047,-0.008309,-0.0251,-0.000705,-0.007154,-0.018816,0.012392,0.011367,0.00015,-0.004608,0.004954,-0.011672,-0.005038,0.007041,0.003801,0.005656,-0.01088,-0.005116,0.000618,0.001849,0.001807,0.006227
In general all the data we have just verify the historical truth. Except you have a different view about the historical truth.

[Teutone]

Epirus DNA is a cuck


Besides that who is more Dorian? Superdorian or the normal Dorian?

[Geni]

In reality these germans come from Albania...:rolleyes:

[Geni]

In reality these germans come from Albania...:rolleyes: because in north Greece is only Albania...

[xripkan]

del

[xripkan]

In reality these germans come from Albania...:rolleyes:

If you mean the Dorians were an Illyrian tribe why didn't they speak an Illyrian language?

[Geni]

No ...it is a teory that dorians that live in arcaic times in Albania was pushed by the illyrian invasion versus the mycenean civilisation in the south...but if this is truth i am not sure but logic is..

[Kmakkmak]

where is Dorian a dna? Data or list?

[Geni]

Maybe Ev 13 or R1B...

[SharpFork]

Instead of attacking me I would suggest you to study more about genetics. You are just making wrong assumptions.
Neolithic South Greece + Isparta_EBA-like populations=Minoans
Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
Distance: 1.6432% / 0.01643208
74.0 GRC_Peloponnese_N
26.0 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
This is what I try to explain you that these references are wrong because they are somewhat ancestral to Ancient Greeks.
And what if they are? We don't know how really iron age Anatolians looked like especially considering the diversity of ethnicties, if I remove them little changes in terms of how different Greeks are. It's not really relevant, point remains Greeks today are very different.




If you want to model with both Ancient Greek and Anatolia references you can just use the Ancient Greek samples and the Greek Central Anatolia sample which also contains some Mycenaean DNA.
How do you know that?


You can also try populations like ARM_LBA, Iran_Hajji_Firuz and some Levant to capture the extra eastern genetic components modern Greeks have, comparing to Ancient Greeks.
The Levantine and Caucaisan samples already do that, plus that's what I was trying to using Bronze age Anatolian samples. The problem with Armenian Bronze Age samples is that they have too much Steppe which modern Armenians don't have, so something weird is going on and using them will make the model weird.


Central Anatolian Greeks are the descendants of Anatolian populations of Byzantine empire. This is why these samples can be used as proxy for Medieval Anatolian populations.

Read here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-s-perspective
Furthermore we have an Anatolian Greek from the Ottoman era. Check
IND_Roopkund_B_o,0.108132,0.144205,-0.044123,-0.061047,-0.008309,-0.0251,-0.000705,-0.007154,-0.018816,0.012392,0.011367,0.00015,-0.004608,0.004954,-0.011672,-0.005038,0.007041,0.003801,0.005656,-0.01088,-0.005116,0.000618,0.001849,0.001807,0.006227
That might work, but for some reason G25 doesn't think that sample is a perfect match for Greek Central Anatolia, despite being similar in ancient components.


In general all the data we have just verify the historical truth. Except you have a different view about the historical truth.
Genetics and "historical truth" don't go hand in hand, even if someone's view of history is as correct as it can be given the evidence it's hard to know the genetic impact of many events, so I'm not sure where you arrogance is coming from, I am the one claiming we don't have enough to know, you instead make wild claims about being "100%" sure and what not.

[SharpFork]

Epirus DNA is a cuck


Besides that who is more Dorian? Superdorian or the normal Dorian?
Dorians don't exist lmao, people woke up one day thinking they were Dorians but they were not apparently.

[SharpFork]

Edit:NVM

[Renekton]

Stupid thread

[xripkan]

And what if they are? We don't know how really iron age Anatolians looked like especially considering the diversity of ethnicties, if I remove them little changes in terms of how different Greeks are. It's not really relevant, point remains Greeks today are very different.



How do you know that?


The Levantine and Caucaisan samples already do that, plus that's what I was trying to using Bronze age Anatolian samples. The problem with Armenian Bronze Age samples is that they have too much Steppe which modern Armenians don't have, so something weird is going on and using them will make the model weird.


That might work, but for some reason G25 doesn't think that sample is a perfect match for Greek Central Anatolia, despite being similar in ancient components.


Genetics and "historical truth" don't go hand in hand, even if someone's view of history is as correct as it can be given the evidence it's hard to know the genetic impact of many events, so I'm not sure where you arrogance is coming from, I am the one claiming we don't have enough to know, you instead make wild claims about being "100%" sure and what not.

First of all I don't have arrogance. I just state the data and only the data.
You just mentioned above that Dorians do not exist. So you proved I am right to suspect you have your own perception about history.
I explained you that Minoans have an extra source of eastern components compared to Neolithic Greeks and this source seems similar to the EBA Anatolian references and this is why it is wrong to use them as extra Anatolian ancestry for Modern Greeks. This is not my conclusion. It is known.
IND_Roopkund_B_o is a perfect match for greek Anatolians. 0.021 distance is a proof that this sample clusters with Anatolian Greeks and we know it was from this region.
You give me the impression that you are biased. You have your own opinion which is obviously wrong and it is incosistent with the data we have. That's why you don't accept it.

[Dorian]

You just mentioned above that Dorians do not exist. So you proved I am right to suspect you have your own perception about history.

He's being sarcastic to faklon's comments.
His own agenda is that they were a distinct people/identity ,judging by a previous discussion he probably jerk offs to some savage "ie" sea people fantasy or something , probably an eurogenes' groupie too.

[xripkan]

He's being sarcastic to faklon's comments.
His own agenda is that they were a distinct people/identity ,judging by a previous discussion he probably jerk offs to some savage "ie" sea people fantasy or something , probably an eurogenes' groupie too.

Kseroume apo pou einai autos o malakas?

[SharpFork]

First of all I don't have arrogance. I just state the data and only the data.
No you drew conclusion on the entire genetic situation of iron age Greece based on 6 samples.

You just mentioned above that Dorians do not exist. So you proved I am right to suspect you have your own perception about history.
...that was clearly a joke.


You give me the impression that you are biased. You have your own opinion which is obviously wrong and it is incosistent with the data we have. That's why you don't accept it.
What exactly is MY opinion? That we don't have enough samples to say how iron age Dorian Greeks were? What a stretch!

[SharpFork]

He's being sarcastic to faklon's comments.
His own agenda is that they were a distinct people/identity ,judging by a previous discussion he probably jerk offs to some savage "ie" sea people fantasy or something , probably an eurogenes' groupie too.
My bios is something I came on the spot because I had to put something, I'm half South Asian and half European so I took that, why are you so obsessed?

Also I didn't claim Dorians were a distinct "people" but that it was a really identity that ancient Greeks could meaningfully differentiate from others and in some cases it was source or part of internal conflicts.

[xripkan]

No you drew conclusion on the entire genetic situation of iron age Greece based on 6 samples.

...that was clearly a joke.


What exactly is MY opinion? That we don't have enough samples to say how iron age Dorian Greeks were? What a stretch!

The conclusion is not made by me but by the genetists here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
Maybe it doesn't like you but we can't change the facts according to your preferences.

Dorians were speaking a Greek dialect which belonged to the low social class of Mycenaean Greece. The sources from Herodotus and other ancient Greeks historians and the findings of modern historians indicate that they were just part of the Greek tribes that were marginalized during the Mycenaean era.
And now except these data we also have the genetic analysis of the Iron Age Greeks who left Greece for Iberia centuries after the Dorian domination in Greece where every group was mixing and moving and as a result any different input would be visible after so many centuries(at least to an extent).
It is obvious that there is very little to no chance Dorians were different than Mycenaeans in genetic terms.

Furthermore if we don't have enough samples to say how Iron Age Greeks were then we don't have enough samples for most people ancient or modern and there is no sense to discuss.

[Tauromachos]

Kseroume apo pou einai autos o malakas?

Den kseroume

Ti mporei na einai?

Kanenas Albanos h Ebraios h Slavo Makedonas mallon?

H Turkos

[SharpFork]

The conclusion is not made by me but by the genetists here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
Maybe it doesn't like you but we can't change the facts according to your preferences.
Nowhere does the article support your main assertion


Dorians were speaking a Greek dialect which belonged to the low social class of Mycenaean Greece. The sources from Herodotus and other ancient Greeks historians and the findings of modern historians indicate that they were just part of the Greek tribes that were marginalized during the Mycenaean era.
Herodotus and ancient historians doesn't claim that, indicate me where they do.

The "internal revolution" is one of many, not particularly supported by evidence than the "arcahic" Dorian invasion theory(although the internal revolution is also old).

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Some-Linguistic-Evidence-for-a-Dorian-%E2%80%9CInvasion%E2%80%9D-in-Lindsay-Velarde/7f18bba8589c19be310879ec90b4b6a09332ccec

The work of John Chadwick, most notably in defense of his assertion that the Dorians were the lower class of Mycenaean culture,2 has done much to challenge the traditional view, but has by no means settled the matter. Chadwick’s thesis, motivated by the lack of material evidence for a large-scale Dorian invasion,3 is attractive from an archaeological standpoint.4 The linguistic evidence, however, suggests a contrary position, and it is from the standpoint of linguistics that I will examine the issue of Doric identity. We may frame the issue as a question: does dialectal evidence suggest that the Dorians were a relatively homogenous linguistic group distinct from other Greek-speakers, or does the linguistic evidence corroborate the view (promoted by Chadwick) that the Dorians were highly integrated with the speakers of what became the so-calledSouth Greek dialects? As I will show, the historical development of the Doric dialects suggests the former. That is, the Dorians of the late Mycenaean era were for possible archaeological evidence suggesting the intrusion of a foreign element in Mycenaean Greece in the Late Helladic IIIC period.

This also addresses Chadwik's theory, relevant part starts in page 181:

http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/6880/1/6880_4185.PDF?UkUDh:CyT


And now except these data we also have the genetic analysis of the Iron Age Greeks who left Greece for Iberia centuries after the Dorian domination in Greece where every group was mixing and moving and as a result any different input would be visible after so many centuries(at least to an extent).
Dorians did not dominate all of Greece, plus those colonies there were from Phocaea in Ionian Anatolia I believe.


It is obvious that there is very little to no chance Dorians were different than Mycenaeans in genetic terms.
Again, it's not me making wild claims based on cherrypicking from an array of theories, just wait for the evidence instead of making wild claims. Regardless the "historical truth" that you claim to hold doesn't mean anything for genetics, like I said historical events and genetics don't always go hand in hand, nobody would suggest the English have a lot of Norman ancestry despite the linguistic and historical evidence of their invasion and presence. On the other hand I don't believe you are able to explain how modern Greek genetics happened accurately by being able to weight which historical event did what, you need more samples inbetween.

The dorian invasion could have happened and the Dorians could have been exactly like the Myceneans, or the Dorians invasion could have not happened and some other change happened with the collapse of the Mycenean world through internal migration. We are working blindly.


Furthermore if we don't have enough samples to say how Iron Age Greeks were then we don't have enough samples for most people ancient or modern and there is no sense to discuss.
We generally don't, we don't always have good genetic evidence as we do for Iberia, Central Asia or other regions, we have to live with it.

[xripkan]

Den kseroume

Ti mporei na einai?

Kanenas Albanos h Ebraios h Slavo Makedonas mallon?

H Turkos

Mporei kai tourkos. H mporei apla kanas varemenos asxetos.

[SharpFork]

Den kseroume

Ti mporei na einai?

Kanenas Albanos h Ebraios h Slavo Makedonas mallon?

H Turkos

I already told you what I am, I have been accused so far of being so many nationalities, I guess I should add Albanians and Macedonian to that.

[Tauromachos]

Nowhere does the article support your main assertion

"Dorians were speaking a Greek dialect which belonged to the low social class of Mycenaean Greece. The sources from Herodotus and other ancient Greeks historians and the findings of modern historians indicate that they were just part of the Greek tribes that were marginalized during the Mycenaean era."

Herodotus and ancient historians doesn't claim that, indicate me where they do.

The "internal revolution" is one of many, not particularly supported by evidence than the "arcahic" Dorian invasion theory(although the internal revolution is also old).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek









(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorus_(Deucalionid))

[xripkan]

Nowhere does the article support your main assertion



It indicates that Minoans + Steppe=Mycenaeans. This Steppe is the Proto-Greeks. Iosif Lazaridis who was the main author of the article gave this interpretation as the most possible by far.
Maybe you want to believe it was not the Proto-Greeks but something else and the Greek language came here by the aliens. It is your right to do so.
Herodotus claims that Dorians were Greeks from Northern parts of Greece. Other ancient Greeks historians mention that they were Greeks that left the Mycenaean wrld an they come back some generations later. Maybe they were natives to Northern Greece but again they were very similar to Myceneanas and this is why they don't seem to change genetically Greek world.
The Greek samples were from Ionia but this does not mean they were pure Ionians without Dorian admixture. Do you really believe that? Do you have any idea about the history of the country you are talking about?
You are wrong about historical sources they can be combined and enlighten us. Of course genetics can do the same. Genetics of 21st century can enrich our knowledge and verify the valiity historical sources. For example historical sources mention that just 30000 Normans settled England which had a much larger population and as a result it affected very ;ittle in genetic terms.
Study history and you will understand better the genetic results.
I am able to explain most of the foreign input modern Greeks have. You can also find these information.
On the other hand you can believe that historical sources mean nothing and the possible consistency with genetic results is random. I can't force you to learn history and to think rationally. Everyone can make a crazy hypothesis, you can also claim that humans are aliens in fact. Under these circumstances any discussion is pointless.

[Tauromachos]

Herodotus claims that Dorians were Greeks from Northern parts of Greece. Other ancient Greeks historians mention that they were Greeks that left the Mycenaean wrld an they come back some generations later. Maybe they were natives to Northern Greece but again they were very similar to Myceneanas and this is why they don't seem to change genetically Greek world.


This^

[catgeorge]

Modern Greeks are on average 70% to Mycenean samples genetically - end of story.

[SharpFork]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorus_(Deucalionid))
Ok?



It indicates that Minoans + Steppe=Mycenaeans. This Steppe is the Proto-Greeks. Iosif Lazaridis who was the main author of the article gave this interpretation as the most possible by far.
Maybe you want to believe it was not the Proto-Greeks but something else and the Greek language came here by the aliens. It is your right to do so.
We discussed this for pages and know for some reason you think I said that the Dorians brought the Greek language? What? We never discussed how Greek came into Greece, why are you coming up with this?


Herodotus claims that Dorians were Greeks from Northern parts of Greece. Other ancient Greeks historians mention that they were Greeks that left the Mycenaean wrld an they come back some generations later. Maybe they were natives to Northern Greece but again they were very similar to Myceneanas and this is why they don't seem to change genetically Greek world.
We will know in the future.


The Greek samples were from Ionia but this does not mean they were pure Ionians without Dorian admixture. Do you really believe that? Do you have any idea about the history of the country you are talking about?
We don't know, again if Dorians were merely 25% Steppe vs Mycenean 15% then 25% Dorian admixture would mean very little. We don't know, that's the point.


I am able to explain most of the foreign input modern Greeks have. You can also find these information.
Down to every single event, sure.


On the other hand you can believe that historical sources mean nothing and the possible consistency with genetic results is random. I can't force you to learn history and to think rationally. Everyone can make a crazy hypothesis, you can also claim that humans are aliens in fact. Under these circumstances any discussion is pointless.
It's not random, but who would have thought that such a big genetic shift happened in Italy during the expansion of Rome? Who would have thought that a 90% replacement happened through Bell Beakers in England through merely archeolgy? Who would have thought for sure that Slavs would have had such a big impact in the Balkans genetically? Who would have thought that Pontic Greeks and Turks had so little outside admixture?

If you did, good for you, you should lend that crystal balls to others.

[xripkan]

Ok?



We discussed this for pages and know for some reason you think I said that the Dorians brought the Greek language? What? We never discussed how Greek came into Greece, why are you coming up with this?


We will know in the future.


We don't know, again if Dorians were merely 25% Steppe vs Mycenean 15% then 25% Dorian admixture would mean very little. We don't know, that's the point.


Down to every single event, sure.


It's not random, but who would have thought that such a big genetic shift happened in Italy during the expansion of Rome? Who would have thought that a 90% replacement happened through Bell Beakers in England through merely archeolgy? Who would have thought for sure that Slavs would have had such a big impact in the Balkans genetically? Who would have thought that Pontic Greeks and Turks had so little outside admixture?

If you did, good for you, you should lend that crystal balls to others.

I din't say that Dorians brought the Greek language. Anyway all this makes no sense. We have samples,complete genetic research and rich historical sources by great historians such as Herodotus. Take it or leave it. I have nothing else to say.

[-Scar-]

Even the one Thracian sample that we have is similar to Mycenaeans. Why would the Dorians be different?
Whatever demographic impact they made (which could've been great) the genetic nature of Greece remained the same. Even though I believe Macedonians and Epirotes were a bit more northern shifted.

Dorians did not drop off the Airplanes of Sweden when they came in Greece but were close geographically.

[Tauromachos]

Even the one Thracian sample that we have is similar to Mycenaeans. Why would the Dorians be different?
Whatever demographic impact they made (which could've been great) the genetic nature of Greece remained the same. Even though I believe Macedonians and Epirotes were a bit more northern shifted.

Dorians did not drop off the Airplanes of Sweden when they came in Greece but were close geographically.

Exactly

[Epirus DNA]

By the time they started coming , there wasnt such thing as Greek, dont get confused
As for they language, they most possibly spoke Greek language

I'm not too sure about that. I think there was a thing as Greek at this time in the heart of Epirus. Without including Dodona and its historical evidence...

According to Georg Busolt, the Graecians were among the first to colonize Italy (i.e., Magna Graecia) in the 9th century BC when they established the city of Cumae; they were the first Greeks with whom the Latins came into contact, which then made them adopt the name of Graeci by synecdoche as the name of the Hellenes.

Aristotle (4th-century BC) records that during the deluge of Deucalion, the Graecians were the inhabitants of Hellas (i.e., "the country about Dodona and the Achelous [river]") who were also known as Hellenes.

In the Parian Chronicle, the Hellenes were originally called Graecians and established the Panathenean Games in 1522–1521 BC

The Dorian Invasion happened about 1100 BC

[Nickos5]

No they wasn't Germans or Illyrians, first of Greeks aren't genetically close to Mycenaeans, because most of modern Greeks are dorians (1 of the 4 Greek races). The Ionian Aeolians and Achaeans (3 of the 4 Greek races) were the Mycenaeans. So that's why Greeks aren't close to mycenyans, because Greeks are dorians. Dorians come to Greece in 1.200 - 1.000 BC. According to homer, the areas where the Dorians lived before they came to Greece (Greece was smaller then and Greece was considered the Mycenaean and Minoan civilization) look like this map here

123706

this map shows where some Greeks lived (logically Ionians, Achaeans, Aeolians) in 3,000 BC (before they moved southest and create sivilizations) not the Dorians, but it looks like the places Dorians lived before they come to Greece in 1,200 - 1,000 BC according to homer. Other people says that dorians come from Northen that this but according to homer this is the place that they come from, today's north west and central west grecee and today's south albania. Most of Greeks today are Dinaric alpine, some Mediterranean 14-21% max Mediterranean phenotype (I mean all the Mediterranean phenotypes like atlantomed, pontid and others) and some mtebid 14-20% max mtebid phenotype. Dorians was only Dinaric and alpine. Spartans macedonians and epirus was pure dorians.

[DrWh033]

Because we all know that sardinians are slavs, not to mention that balkans who speak slavic languages have anything to do with slavs/protoslavs....lol