WHAT IS WHITE? JF Gariepy

[Anaximander]

JF Gariepy compares Greek and Turkish Jews, instead of real Greeks and Turks

And concludes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UIw31ARSpg

Greeks are not white!

Please discuss.....

[Rocinante]

Genetically = A person who has at least 7/8 of caucasoid ancestry

Phenotypically = A person that had predominantly caucasoid features.

[Rocinante]

Greeks are white by the way, never saw any that isn't.

[Anaximander]

Greeks are white by the way, never saw any that isn't.

This charlatan called JF Gareipy compares Greek and turkish jews with askhenzi jews,and concludes , ''Greeks are not white''

Someone tell this charlatan that Basques have the same difference from Norwegians that Greeks have!!

[Rocinante]

This charlatan called JF Gareipy compares Greek and turkish jews with askhenzi jews,and concludes , ''Greeks are not white''

Someone tell this charlatan than Basques have the same difference from Norwegians that Greeks have!!

https://imgur.com/r/europe/yOvLQq5

Mmm, maybe greeks, basques and norweigans are different from each other, but okay, i agree. We all are NF+WHG+YAMNAYA at the end.

[SharpFork]

It depends on how you define European, the definition is entirely subjective but you can have a meaningful discussion after defining it.

In terms of ancestral componenets, Cypriots, Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks are mostly non-European but even Aegean Greeks end up being mostly European but still close to 50/50.

But even in terms of ancient components Minoans were 20-25% West Asian 4 millennia ago, so is it right to call that part of the ancestry "non-european"? Again it's subjective.

[krokor]

I think Greece is basically an extension of the Middle East that's why they cluster with Jews instead of actual Europeans like Germans. That's it pals, guess the Greco-Persian wars were just a Middle Eastern VS Middle Eastern war.

[SharpFork]

Mmm, maybe greeks, basques and norweigans are different from each other, but okay, i agree. We all are NF+WHG+YAMNAYA at the end.
I mean yeah, but peninsular Italians and Greeks have quite some extra CHG, Iranian neolithic and post-Neolithic MENA ancestry still. Iberians have up to 5% Iberomaurisian ancestry too but it's comparatively minor.

[Nassbean]

I think Greece is basically an extension of the Middle East that's why they cluster with Jews instead of actual Europeans like Germans. That's it pals, guess the Greco-Persian wars were just a Middle Eastern VS Middle Eastern war.

lol no it's just jews who are mainly south european ...In 2020 still believing jews are middle easterners :lol:

[SharpFork]

I think Greece is basically an extension of the Middle East that's why they cluster with Jews instead of actual Europeans like Germans. That's it pals, guess the Greco-Persian wars were just a Middle Eastern VS Middle Eastern war.
They cluster with Jews that are like 50-66% European, plus we have good reason to believe that Greeks became more West Asian since the start of Roman rule.

[SharpFork]

lol no it's just jews who are mainly south european ...In 2020 still believing jews are middle easterners :lol:
I know "phenotype =/= genetics" etc. but no one can seriously believe 100% pure Levantine Ashkenazi when you compare average Ashkenazis with Palestinians or even Lebanese.

[Smeagol]

lol no it's just jews who are mainly south european ...In 2020 still believing jews are middle easterners :lol:

I'm pretty sure this guy is the same Israeli troll who keeps getting banned.

[Nassbean]

I know "phenotype =/= genetics" etc. but no one can seriously believe 100% pure Levantine Ashkenazi when you compare average Ashkenazis with Palestinians or even Lebanese.

Exactly but according to them you're antisemite simply for stating this congrats :thumb001:

[Anaximander]

I mean yeah, but peninsular Italians and Greeks have quite some extra CHG, Iranian neolithic and post-Neolithic MENA ancestry still. Iberians have up to 5% Iberomaurisian ancestry too but it's comparatively minor.

In his opinion , Spanish and Portuguese were white though!
While Greeks-turks-Askhenazi jews plotted together, since he compared Greek and turkish Jews!

Someone wake this guy up!

[Rocinante]

I mean yeah, but peninsular Italians and Greeks have quite some extra CHG, Iranian neolithic and post-Neolithic MENA ancestry still. Iberians have up to 5% Iberomaurisian ancestry too but it's comparatively minor.

The extra CHG in italians is indeed because Iranian Neolithic on them, iberians up to 6% pure iberomaurusian without SSA and natufian, is more ancient than the islamic period.

[SharpFork]

The extra CHG in italians is indeed because Iranian Neolithic on them, iberians up to 6% pure iberomaurusian without SSA and natufian, is more ancient than the islamic period.
I'm of the opinion that it came since the Copper age in minor amounts and was confined to the Southern coast where it would be reinforced by Punic presence and the long Roman conquest of the rest of Iberia spread the admixture northwards, the Arab rule definitely also played a role though.

[mitalit]

All ethnic europeans are white, so yes. I mean all ethnic europeans except from...

[SharpFork]

All ethnic europeans are white, so yes. I mean all ethnic europeans except from...
A. East Finns
B. Cypriots
C. Canarians
D. Maltese

[krokor]

They cluster with Jews that are like 50-66% European, plus we have good reason to believe that Greeks became more West Asian since the start of Roman rule.

Sources?

[Leto]

JF Gariepy is illiterate in autosomal population genetics.

[Leto]

A. East Finns
B. Cypriots
C. Canarians
D. Maltese
East Finns are still at least 90% European by DNA.

[Anaximander]

A. East Finns
B. Cypriots
C. Canarians
D. Maltese

I dont get offended being non-white , or not in parts with north-west Europeans, but he made a comparison between Greeks and turks, and even Iranians!
This is beyond acceptable.

[SharpFork]

East Finns are still at least 90% European by DNA.

It was supposed to be a multiple choice question, I guess an Uralic group that was more Eastern would have fit better.

[Rgvgjhvv]

This man is a genius and my hero

[Leto]

I dont get offended being non-white , or not in parts with north-west Europeans, but he made a comparison between Greeks and turks, and even Iranians!
This is beyond acceptable.
Why do you care? He has never even researched into population genetics, just found a PCA in Google Images and cut off every group south of the Alps and I guess east of Poland.

[krokor]

Ashkenazi Jews have only 18% non-Judean admixture. Light pigmented =/= European. If you cluster with Jews (e.g. Greeks and South Italians), it means you're non-European, get over it.

[krokor]

This man is a genius and my hero

It's good to see an awakened Greek. Greco-Jewish brotherhood.

https://cdn.clipart.email/b03ee6a3b9755f991cfbf270eeeeffd3_cheers-celebration-sketch-doodle-style-cheers-celebration-_450-468.jpeg

[Anaximander]

Ashkenazi Jews have only 18% non-Judean admixture. Light pigmented =/= European. If you cluster with Jews (e.g. Greeks and South Italians), it means you're non-European, get over it.

Greek and Turkish Jews cluster with Askhenazi, according to his analyses.

[Rocinante]

I'm of the opinion that it came since the Copper age in minor amounts and was confined to the Southern coast where it would be reinforced by Punic presence and the long Roman conquest of the rest of Iberia spread the admixture northwards, the Arab rule definitely also played a role though.

That's my second theory, that came with the Punics.

[Samnium]

I mean yeah, but peninsular Italians and Greeks have quite some extra CHG, Iranian neolithic and post-Neolithic MENA ancestry still. Iberians have up to 5% Iberomaurisian ancestry too but it's comparatively minor.

Southern/Central Italians yes, Northern Italians ? Not really.

I don't even think that there's any italian cluster. Maybe Central Italy, but there are wild gap in Central Italy as well, so no.

[SharpFork]

That's my second theory, that came with the Punics.
What's your first theory? I personally think some of the North African must have come before, considering the Bronze and Copper Berber or Berber-mixed samples from Iberia.

[SharpFork]

Southern/Central Italians yes, Northern Italians ? Not really.

That's what Peninsular Italy means, but North Italians do have minor amounts of it as well, but I'm not sure how exactly the pattern looks and why it is like that.

[Samnium]

That's what Peninsular Italy means, but North Italians do have minor amounts of it as well, but I'm not sure how exactly the pattern looks and why it is like that.

N.Italians have it also indeed, minor though, like Iberians.

[Rocinante]

What's your first theory? I personally think some of the North African must have come before, considering the Bronze and Copper Berber or Berber-mixed samples from Iberia.

I think that the iberomaurisian component in iberians are remanents of the inmigration of CMs from Iberia to North Africa in the Mesolithic, but this is my opinion, based in the fact that spanish people doesn't score SSA or Natufian.

[Dick]

Amazing content. I hope your thread gets more views. Keep up the amazing work.

[SharpFork]

I think that the iberomaurisian component in iberians are remanents of the inmigration of CMs from Iberia to North Africa in the Mesolithic, but this is my opinion, based in the fact that spanish people doesn't score SSA or Natufian.
I think the problem with that theory is that virtually all Neolithic and most Copper age samples lack any Berber admixture. Plus how Natufian are Berbers(modern or past) really? Even their SSA wouldn't go beyond 10% so it would be in very small amounts in Iberians.

Also another thing to consider is that the admixture would have come through Moroccans, the westernmost Maghrebis which would have less Natufian too I'd imagine.

[Farrukh Hormizd]

Genetically = A person who has at least 7/8 of caucasoid ancestry

dont let alnorte read this :laugh:

[Rocinante]

dont let alnorte read this :laugh:

Alnorte is 7/8 caucasoid indeed, and some calcs give him +90%.


I think the problem with that theory is that virtually all Neolithic and most Copper age samples lack any Berber admixture. Plus how Natufian are Berbers(modern or past) really? Even their SSA wouldn't go beyond 10% so it would be in very small amounts in Iberians.

Also another thing to consider is that the admixture would have come through Moroccans, the westernmost Maghrebis which would have less Natufian too I'd imagine.

Actual berbers and north africans have a decent portion of natufian related ancestry (arab), Nassbean could confirm this, but i will model it with my spreadsheet:

Target: Moroccan_North
Distance: 3.0870% / 0.03087000
41.6 Neolithic_Farmer
32.8 Iberomaurusian
9.8 Steppe
5.0 Natufian_Culture
5.0 Neolithic_Iran
3.6 Neolithic_South_Africa
2.2 WHG

Target: Moroccan_North
Distance: 3.5256% / 0.03525566 | ADC: 0.25x
39.2 Neolithic_Farmer
31.4 Iberomaurusian
12.6 Steppe
12.2 Natufian_Culture
2.4 Neolithic_South_Africa
2.2 Neolithic_Iran

Neolithic Iran, Natufian and SSA components are not related to the iberian gene pool, that's what i mean. This iberomaurisian from iberians comes from other way.

[SharpFork]

Alnorte is 7/8 caucasoid indeed, and some calcs give him +90%.



Actual berbers and north africans have a decent portion of natufian related ancestry (arab), Nassbean could confirm this, but i will model it with my spreadsheet:

Target: Moroccan_North
Distance: 3.0870% / 0.03087000
41.6 Neolithic_Farmer
32.8 Iberomaurusian
9.8 Steppe
5.0 Natufian_Culture
5.0 Neolithic_Iran
3.6 Neolithic_South_Africa
2.2 WHG

Target: Moroccan_North
Distance: 3.5256% / 0.03525566 | ADC: 0.25x
39.2 Neolithic_Farmer
31.4 Iberomaurusian
12.6 Steppe
12.2 Natufian_Culture
2.4 Neolithic_South_Africa
2.2 Neolithic_Iran

Neolithic Iran, Natufian and SSA components are not related to the iberian gene pool, that's what i mean. This iberomaurisian from iberians comes from other way.

What happens when you run Spaniards using this model? I mean considering that mainland Iberians would have at the very most 1/8 North African ancestry, this means that all those admixtures would be less than 1%.

[Rocinante]

What happens when you run Spaniards using this model? I mean considering that mainland Iberians would have at the very most 1/8 North African ancestry, this means that all those admixtures would be less than 1%.

1/8 of NA in iberians is A LOT. Look:

Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
Distance: 3.7988% / 0.03798810 | ADC: 0.25x
56.0 Neolithic_Farmer
32.6 Steppe
10.2 WHG
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 3.3099% / 0.03309911 | ADC: 0.25x
53.8 Neolithic_Farmer
33.4 Steppe
8.8 WHG
4.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Pais_Vasco
Distance: 5.5389% / 0.05538932 | ADC: 0.25x
54.2 Neolithic_Farmer
30.6 Steppe
15.2 WHG

Target: Spanish_Galicia
Distance: 3.5553% / 0.03555260 | ADC: 0.25x
53.0 Neolithic_Farmer
33.8 Steppe
10.0 WHG
3.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Andalucia
Distance: 3.6151% / 0.03615113 | ADC: 0.25x
54.6 Neolithic_Farmer
32.4 Steppe
9.8 WHG
3.2 Iberomaurusian

[SharpFork]

1/8 of NA in iberians is A LOT. Look:

Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
Distance: 3.7988% / 0.03798810 | ADC: 0.25x
56.0 Neolithic_Farmer
32.6 Steppe
10.2 WHG
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 3.3099% / 0.03309911 | ADC: 0.25x
53.8 Neolithic_Farmer
33.4 Steppe
8.8 WHG
4.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Pais_Vasco
Distance: 5.5389% / 0.05538932 | ADC: 0.25x
54.2 Neolithic_Farmer
30.6 Steppe
15.2 WHG

Target: Spanish_Galicia
Distance: 3.5553% / 0.03555260 | ADC: 0.25x
53.0 Neolithic_Farmer
33.8 Steppe
10.0 WHG
3.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Andalucia
Distance: 3.6151% / 0.03615113 | ADC: 0.25x
54.6 Neolithic_Farmer
32.4 Steppe
9.8 WHG
3.2 Iberomaurusian
Try removing the ADC thing, also 1/8 is in line with the the ratio between Iberomaurusian in Portuguese and Galicians and Moroccans, it was a maximum anyway

[Ethel]

1/8 of NA in iberians is A LOT. Look:

It's not a lot, but it's the max you could find in Western Iberia.
Iberomaurusian doesn't equals North African, Moroccans themselves have 1/3 of it, you can be sure that a part of it is in the Neolithic Farmer, considering that the purpose of this model is to be as basic as possible.

[marco]

Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I3808
Distance: 1.8891% / 0.01889087
38.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
26.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
21.4 Levant_Natufian
8.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.0 MAR_EN
1.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7424
Distance: 3.2494% / 0.03249434
38.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
35.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
14.4 Levant_Natufian
4.8 MAR_EN
2.6 GEO_CHG
2.6 WHG
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7499
Distance: 1.8269% / 0.01826887
30.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
29.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
23.6 Levant_Natufian
6.4 GEO_CHG
5.2 MAR_EN
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 WHG
0.8 Yoruba

I can’t be bothered to do the rest I’m to lazy get over it. Wow the top one even scores Iranian mental

[Rocinante]

Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I3808
Distance: 1.8891% / 0.01889087
38.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
26.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
21.4 Levant_Natufian
8.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.0 MAR_EN
1.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7424
Distance: 3.2494% / 0.03249434
38.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
35.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
14.4 Levant_Natufian
4.8 MAR_EN
2.6 GEO_CHG
2.6 WHG
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE:I7499
Distance: 1.8269% / 0.01826887
30.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
29.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
23.6 Levant_Natufian
6.4 GEO_CHG
5.2 MAR_EN
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 WHG
0.8 Yoruba

I can’t be bothered to do the rest I’m to lazy get over it. Wow the top one even scores Iranian mental

Funny how some people mix Bell Beaker with WHG and EEF together xD


It's not a lot, but it's the max you could find in Western Iberia.
Iberomaurusian doesn't equals North African, Moroccans themselves have 1/3 of it, you can be sure that a part of it is in the Neolithic Farmer, considering that the purpose of this model is to be as basic as possible.

I know, you are all right on this. This is a Mesolithic-Neolithic component IMO.


Try removing the ADC thing, also 1/8 is in line with the the ratio between Iberomaurusian in Portuguese and Galicians and Moroccans, it was a maximum anyway

Target: Spanish_Andalucia
Distance: 3.4796% / 0.03479575
52.6 Neolithic_Farmer
31.4 Steppe
11.2 WHG
4.8 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Aragon
Distance: 4.0695% / 0.04069520
53.8 Neolithic_Farmer
31.6 Steppe
12.2 WHG
2.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Asturias
Distance: 5.3239% / 0.05323919
51.0 Neolithic_Farmer
31.4 Steppe
12.6 WHG
5.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Baleares
Distance: 2.9897% / 0.02989694
54.2 Neolithic_Farmer
34.0 Steppe
9.8 WHG
2.0 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Canarias
Distance: 2.9820% / 0.02981955
50.0 Neolithic_Farmer
29.8 Steppe
10.0 Iberomaurusian
9.0 WHG
0.8 Neolithic_South_Africa
0.4 Natufian_Culture

Target: Spanish_Cantabria
Distance: 3.8917% / 0.03891659
53.4 Neolithic_Farmer
32.0 Steppe
12.8 WHG
1.8 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
Distance: 3.6694% / 0.03669438
54.0 Neolithic_Farmer
31.6 Steppe
11.6 WHG
2.8 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
Distance: 3.8966% / 0.03896642
50.8 Neolithic_Farmer
32.6 Steppe
11.2 WHG
5.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Cataluna
Distance: 3.5717% / 0.03571707
52.0 Neolithic_Farmer
32.4 Steppe
12.8 WHG
2.8 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Extremadura
Distance: 3.1230% / 0.03123035
51.8 Neolithic_Farmer
32.2 Steppe
10.6 WHG
5.4 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Galicia
Distance: 3.4186% / 0.03418630
51.2 Neolithic_Farmer
32.6 Steppe
11.4 WHG
4.8 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_La_Rioja
Distance: 2.9109% / 0.02910855
58.4 Neolithic_Farmer
25.2 Steppe
15.2 WHG
1.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Murcia
Distance: 3.0135% / 0.03013508
53.6 Neolithic_Farmer
30.8 Steppe
11.2 WHG
4.2 Iberomaurusian
0.2 Mayahak_Cab_Pek_Cave

Target: Spanish_Navarra
Distance: 4.5340% / 0.04534014
53.8 Neolithic_Farmer
31.0 Steppe
13.0 WHG
2.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Pais_Vasco
Distance: 5.5121% / 0.05512075
53.2 Neolithic_Farmer
30.2 Steppe
16.4 WHG
0.2 Iberomaurusian

Target: Spanish_Valencia
Distance: 3.5247% / 0.03524710
53.0 Neolithic_Farmer
31.8 Steppe
12.4 WHG
2.8 Iberomaurusian

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 3.1539% / 0.03153872
51.6 Neolithic_Farmer
32.4 Steppe
10.4 WHG
5.6 Iberomaurusian

[SharpFork]

I know, you are all right on this. This is a Mesolithic-Neolithic component IMO.
The evidence we have directly contradicts this, at the earliest some of it came during the Copper Age in the South and appeared northwards from there only during the Roman period, not prior.

Not having 1-2% Natufian/Iranian/SSAfrican doesn't change the fact that there is very little Iberomaurisian in dozens of samples until the copper age in some parts and Roman period in others.

You are selectively looking at smaller details and ignoring the larger picture and coming with an impossible scenario given what we know right now. The ratio between West Asian components and Iberomaurisian varies wildly among modern and ancient samples as it happens in ancient Iberian ones and is not an indication of anything outside maybe North Africa being an heterogeneous place.