Early Turkic form of Turkey Turks

[Kaspias]

At the past I have posted an analysis of Balkan Turks with only three samples. This thread will be including 12 samples from Balkans, and averages of 5 regions in Anatolia. For previous threads, see:

-In search of the ancestors: Balkan Turks (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?315168-In-search-of-the-ancestors-Balkan-Turks)
-In search of the ancestors: Anatolian Turks (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?319277-In-search-of-the-ancestors-Anatolian-Turks)

https://i.ibb.co/X5VXn2H/main1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/KqN3thm/main2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/xfsFymV/main3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/r27Lgbh/maiin4.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/C07KXJd/main5.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/LPMMMDz/main6.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/qd5kzKy/main7.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/F3y2KHM/main8.jpg

It seems that there are three different Turkic admixture among Balkan Turks:

-Oghuz is the strongest input.
-Uralic/Ugric like ancestry.
-Siberian like ancestry.

On the other hand, Anatolian Turks show a genetic continuity of Oghuz.



Individuals also can be investigated. I will post myself as an example:

https://i.ibb.co/fnLr6Z3/kaspias-horz.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/2nfSYtv/kaspiasc-vert.jpg

[Kyp]

Edit:
Looks really good:thumb001:

[itilvolga]

It seems that there are three different Turkic admixture among Balkan Turks:

-Oghuz is the strongest input.
-Uralic/Ugric like ancestry.
-Siberian like ancestry.

On the other hand, Anatolian Turks show a genetic continuity of Oghuz.

I guess other Turkic admixtures come from Tatars, no?

[Kaspias]

I guess other Turkic admixtures come from Tatars, no?

There are different groups of Tatars settled in the Balkans. Deniz has 1/8 legit Tatar(recent migrator) admixture, and he insanely pulled to the Uralic/Ugric cluster. It actually gives the answer, there is definitely a contribution of Tatars, but if it shifts to the Ugric, then what causes Siberian shifted results? Another group of Tatars? Something else?

[Thracian]

Amazing work again, congrats.

I guess, we can clearly say there is genetic continuity between Turkic groups in Balkans and Anatolia. In addition to this, Balkan Turks have extra Tatar and Uralic like ancestry? I guess, Siberian is part of Tatar ancestry?

[Aileron]

Cool my friend Kaspias aa always...

[itilvolga]

There are different groups of Tatars settled in the Balkans. Deniz has 1/8 legit Tatar(recent migrator) admixture, and he insanely pulled to the Uralic/Ugric cluster. It actually gives the answer, there is definitely a contribution of Tatars, but if it shifts to the Ugric, then what causes Siberian shifted results? Another group of Tatars? Something else?

Another group/groups of Tatars makes sense. As far as I know, Balkan Turks have only Crimean Tatar (such as Dobrudjalis) roots, though.
Check this link please: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311805917_The_Tatars_of_Eurasia_peculiarity_of_Cri mean_Volga_and_Siberian_Tatar_gene_pools

[axlredneck]

Awesome thread!

[Kyp]

Is there Tatar-like ancestry in Western Turkey?

[Lucas]

Nice plots.




It seems that there are three different Turkic admixture among Balkan Turks:

-Oghuz is the strongest input.
-Uralic/Ugric like ancestry.
-Siberian like ancestry.


What is the difference between them? Which ancient sample is best representation of every one?

[Bosniensis]

Half Persian Turkics conquered Anatolia, then mixed with Greeks and Armenians.

Anatolian admixture is really chaotic.

[Kaspias]

Amazing work again, congrats.

I guess, we can clearly say there is genetic continuity between Turkic groups in Balkans and Anatolia. In addition to this, Balkan Turks have extra Tatar and Uralic like ancestry? I guess, Siberian is part of Tatar ancestry?


Another group/groups of Tatars makes sense. As far as I know, Balkan Turks have only Crimean Tatar (such as Dobrudjalis) roots, though.
Check this link please: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311805917_The_Tatars_of_Eurasia_peculiarity_of_Cri mean_Volga_and_Siberian_Tatar_gene_pools

I have to do the same process to the Crimean Tatars, but there are no Crimean Tatars in the G25 spreadsheet for now. So everything I say now is just kind of assuming.

The ones who have Dobrudja Tatar roots usually aware of it, because it is very recent. But for example, in my case, my whole paternal lineage is not aware of Tatar admixture but apparently I have additional input besides having Oghuz.

See the Tatar settlements except for recent migration of Dobrudja Tatars:

https://i.ibb.co/BZqWLPx/Ads-z.png



The Tsardom of Bulgaria was destroyed by Bayezit in 1393. In the period of consolidation of control over the central Balkans which followed, Plovdiv, lying on the region's strategic southern approach, became the destination for two major tribal transfers. In the first, Crimean Tatar chieftain Aktav, driven into the Balkans by Timur's campaigns north of the Black Sea, was assigned the area surrounding Filibe along with his fellow tribesmen, many of whom turned to settled agricultural life. Aktav himself, it seems, was later executed by the sultan who feared his growing military power on the Western frontier. The second transfer involved a group of nomads who had come into conflict with a state and salt monopoly in the territory of Saruhan -now formally under direct Ottoman control-and were transferred to Plovdiv as a result. Relocation didn't always spell isolation from political importance - the leeader of this group, Paşayiğit Bey, came to be a significant figure in the expansion of the Ottoman frontier in the Balkans.

During Sultan Mehmet I's reconsolidation of Ottoman control in Anatolia, Plovdiv once again became a destination for tribal relocation. The sultan, returning from campaigns in Northern Anatolia in 1418, ordered the relocation of large group of Tatars from İskilip to Konış Hisarı near Plovdiv on the pretext, as the chroniclers relate, of their not having supported Sultan Bayezit agains Timur. Their chief, Minnet Bey, and his decendents subsequently became important notables in the area and pariticipated in the warfare of the western frontier. Also in the context of the restoration of control, a large number of nomadic Türkmen, some in outright rebellion, were deported to Rumeli under Mehmet I from the Kastamonu-Amasya-Tokat-Canik region an area which slipped from control several times during that period.



These are identified as Turk and melted in the same pot with Türkmens.

[Kaspias]

Is there Tatar-like ancestry in Western Turkey?

Recent migrations? Yes. I'm not aware of a Tatar group settled in Western Turkey and contributed the gene pool of the region. Kara Tatars might be the only example perhaps.


Nice plots.




What is the difference between them? Which ancient sample is best representation of every one?

Balkan Turks have more than one source for their Turkic admixture which makes the difference. I always use KAZ_Turk(specifically DA89) while determining broad Turkic admixtures. I had used it while modeling Anatolian and Balkan Turks before subtraction, too.

[axlredneck]

I have to do the same process to the Crimean Tatars, but there are no Crimean Tatars in the G25 spreadsheet for now. So everything I say now is just kind of assuming.



IMO Xripkan's eastern ancestry is a good proxy for Crimean Tatars. Try using it.


C18Turkic,0.09764413,-0.060159689,0.071371106,0.002918394,-0.001612814,0.035998006,-0.011374932,0.06414028,-0.028328929,0.054602245,-0.077932522,0.022234941,0.060901627,0.023904503,-0.041552618,-0.006695289,0.033177745,-0.023786373,-0.034096876,0.032294283,-0.049291323,-0.02237754,-0.036201447,0.013692997,-0.010234469

[xripkan]

IMO Xripkan's eastern ancestry is a good proxy for Crimean Tatars. Try using it.


C18Turkic,0.09764413,-0.060159689,0.071371106,0.002918394,-0.001612814,0.035998006,-0.011374932,0.06414028,-0.028328929,0.054602245,-0.077932522,0.022234941,0.060901627,0.023904503,-0.041552618,-0.006695289,0.033177745,-0.023786373,-0.034096876,0.032294283,-0.049291323,-0.02237754,-0.036201447,0.013692997,-0.010234469

Kapsias told me that this is not pure Turkic reference.

[axlredneck]

Kapsias told me that this is not pure Turkic reference.

That's why I've mentioned it as a "proxy".

[axlredneck]

Double

[Sora]

Half Persian Turkics conquered Anatolia, then mixed with Greeks and Armenians.

Anatolian admixture is really chaotic.

Are you sure?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFuljugX0AMhbKv?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHOy233X4AAub9H?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHVlvgtWkAAd2Bq?format=jpg&name=medium

Plus:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGsaLe_WsAAUfT-?format=jpg&name=medium

Do you still insist on your superstitions?

[xripkan]

That's why I've mentioned it as a "proxy".

I am just thinking that Crimean Tatar must have Finno-Ugric input. This one is modeled as mostly Oguz-like+extra Steppe


Target: C18Turkic
Distance: 17.1786% / 0.17178604
70.8 Turkic_Anatolia-avg
20.8 Ukrainian
8.4 Tatar_Siberian

[Thracian]

I have to do the same process to the Crimean Tatars, but there are no Crimean Tatars in the G25 spreadsheet for now. So everything I say now is just kind of assuming.

The ones who have Dobrudja Tatar roots usually aware of it, because it is very recent. But for example, in my case, my whole paternal lineage is not aware of Tatar admixture but apparently I have additional input besides having Oghuz.

See the Tatar settlements except for recent migration of Dobrudja Tatars:

https://i.ibb.co/BZqWLPx/Ads-z.png




These are identified as Turk and melted in the same pot with Türkmens.

What do you suggest for models? Should we use the whole spreadsheet or just regional samples from Turkics, Iranics, Anatolians etc...? So, we can discuss about the difference between early and late. I used whole spreadsheet and for me the difference, late becomes heavily Iranized.

[Kaspias]

I am just thinking that Crimean Tatar must have Finno-Ugric input. This one is modeled as mostly Oguz-like+extra Steppe


Target: C18Turkic
Distance: 17.1786% / 0.17178604
70.8 Turkic_Anatolia-avg
20.8 Ukrainian
8.4 Tatar_Siberian

I was just going to post the same :D


Even if we assume it is Crimean Tatar admixture, this is 19th step of the subtraction, using it won't make sense because of such distances: Distance: 17.1786% / 0.17178604

[itilvolga]

Is there Tatar-like ancestry in Western Turkey?

According to İlber Ortaylı, there was a Tatar tribe which came from Crimea to Tekfurdağı (Tekirdağ) in 15th century.

Also the family of my maternal great grandma is called as Tatarlar (Tatars) in our village but I don’t know the reason to be honest. The family came from Kosovo, that’s another weirdness. If they are Tatars for real, it means there’s also Tatar-like ancestry in Southwestern Turkey.

[axlredneck]

I am just thinking that Crimean Tatar must have Finno-Ugric input. This one is modeled as mostly Oguz-like+extra Steppe


Target: C18Turkic
Distance: 17.1786% / 0.17178604
70.8 Turkic_Anatolia-avg
20.8 Ukrainian
8.4 Tatar_Siberian

A better model is:
"sample": "Custom:C18Turkic",
"fit": 15.8165,
"Nogai": 54.17,
"Tatar_Mishar": 40,
"Italian_Apulia": 5.83

Nogai explains the original base, Mishar explains the Steppe and Italian-Apulia is a proxy for original Crimean Greeks.

[xripkan]

I was just going to post the same :D


Even if we assume it is Crimean Tatar admixture, this is 19th step of the subtraction, using it won't make sense because of such distances: Distance: 17.1786% / 0.17178604

Actually all the versions of Turkic admixture (late nad early) are modeled as Anatolian Turkic+a little bit Tatar-like regarding the clear Turkic part.
What I still don't understand in my case is why when I am modelled (using my coordinates) with all modern references Mari reference gives me the best distance among all Turkic groups.

[xripkan]

A better model is:
"sample": "Custom:C18Turkic",
"fit": 15.8165,
"Nogai": 54.17,
"Tatar_Mishar": 40,
"Italian_Apulia": 5.83

Nogai explains the original base, Mishar explains the Steppe and Italian-Apulia is a proxy for original Crimean Greeks.

You are right! It seems it prefers Nogai over Turkic Anatolia.

I subtracted the Steppe part from C18Turkic and check how it is modelled
Target: C18TurkicNew
Distance: 15.4840% / 0.15483953
65.2 Turkic_Anatolia-avg
26.8 Nogai
5.4 Greek_Peloponnese
2.6 Tatar_Mishar

The Turkic admixture seems different.

[Kaspias]

What do you suggest for models? Should we use the whole spreadsheet or just regional samples from Turkics, Iranics, Anatolians etc...? So, we can discuss about the difference between early and late. I used whole spreadsheet and for me the difference, late becomes heavily Iranized.


Late samples are also give clues about migration as early ones did, but didn't want to post late ones for now to don't make people confused. I probably will open a seperate thread for them, too. I know it has been three threads already, but if I post everything in one thread it will be confusing :D

I think this should work for early:


Siberia:MNG_Hovsgol_BA_o2,0.085367,-0.12491,0.058831,0.052649,-0.038469,0.003068,-0.00705,-0.006692,-0.011453,-0.024055,-0.012504,-3e-04,0.00446,-0.023258,0.011401,0.012596,-0.000652,-0.003041,0.005028,0.014507,-0.017469,0.001855,-0.000246,0.010242,-0.001078
Ugric:FIN_Levanluhta_IA,0.1044325,-0.036051,0.1057825,0.0792965,-0.0122328,0.008576,0.006169,0.0141918,0.0037328,-0.0303422,0.033046,-0.0083175,0.019772,-0.0182695,-0.0065485,-0.0034805,-3.28e-05,-0.0031672,-0.0073848,0.0008442,0.016658,-0.0018547,-0.0016945,0.004097,0.0008382
Steppe-Nomad:RUS_Nomad_MA,0.087644,-0.090382,0.050534,0.031331,-0.036314,-0.008925,0.00376,0.007384,-0.009613,-0.016037,-0.007632,-0.001499,0.002527,-0.007019,-0.002172,-0.007425,-0.011735,0.004814,0.004022,-0.001,-0.004243,0.008779,0.001972,-0.00012,-0.002754
Oghuz:Turkic_Anatolia-avg,0.078696873,-0.083963831,0.024335737,0.006566527,-0.036170504,-0.002526961,0.009473932,0.007261605,-0.009136461,-0.012439212,-0.014328067,-0.001494711,0.001948896,-0.006808966,0.002674388,0.008160479,0.001206177,-6.72318E-05,-0.003722421,0.003261193,-0.012075227,0.000661755,-0.007766628,0.005433171,-0.000593954


I have to add that Steppe-Nomad despite we don't know his ethnicity certainly. Either Cuman or Bulgar, I can say.


Target: Kaspias_Early
Distance: 8.8255% / 0.08825509
43.8 Oghuz
25.2 Kipchak
17.6 Ugric
13.4 Siberia

Target: Thracian_Early
Distance: 17.4918% / 0.17491795
60.0 Oghuz
39.2 Siberia
0.8 Ugric

Target: Deniz_Early
Distance: 24.9082% / 0.24908160
76.4 Steppe-Nomad
23.6 Ugric


Lol at @Deniz.

[Deniz]

Late samples are also give clues about migration as early ones did, but didn't want to post late ones for now to don't make people confused. I probably will open a seperate thread for them, too. I know it has been three threads already, but if I post everything in one thread it will be confusing :D

I think this should work for early:


Siberia:MNG_Hovsgol_BA_o2,0.085367,-0.12491,0.058831,0.052649,-0.038469,0.003068,-0.00705,-0.006692,-0.011453,-0.024055,-0.012504,-3e-04,0.00446,-0.023258,0.011401,0.012596,-0.000652,-0.003041,0.005028,0.014507,-0.017469,0.001855,-0.000246,0.010242,-0.001078
Ugric:FIN_Levanluhta_IA,0.1044325,-0.036051,0.1057825,0.0792965,-0.0122328,0.008576,0.006169,0.0141918,0.0037328,-0.0303422,0.033046,-0.0083175,0.019772,-0.0182695,-0.0065485,-0.0034805,-3.28e-05,-0.0031672,-0.0073848,0.0008442,0.016658,-0.0018547,-0.0016945,0.004097,0.0008382
Steppe-Nomad:RUS_Nomad_MA,0.087644,-0.090382,0.050534,0.031331,-0.036314,-0.008925,0.00376,0.007384,-0.009613,-0.016037,-0.007632,-0.001499,0.002527,-0.007019,-0.002172,-0.007425,-0.011735,0.004814,0.004022,-0.001,-0.004243,0.008779,0.001972,-0.00012,-0.002754
Kipchak:KAZ_Kipchak,0.0705705,-0.1269415,0.0273415,0.0046835,-0.039546,-0.00502,0.00564,0.013961,-0.003784,-0.007836,-0.012991,0.000225,0.0037165,-0.005092,0.000746,0.010607,0.007497,-0.0023435,0.005845,0.005065,-0.0101695,0.000742,-0.0027115,0.0013255,-0.002455
Oghuz:Turkic_Anatolia-avg,0.078696873,-0.083963831,0.024335737,0.006566527,-0.036170504,-0.002526961,0.009473932,0.007261605,-0.009136461,-0.012439212,-0.014328067,-0.001494711,0.001948896,-0.006808966,0.002674388,0.008160479,0.001206177,-6.72318E-05,-0.003722421,0.003261193,-0.012075227,0.000661755,-0.007766628,0.005433171,-0.000593954


I have to add that Steppe-Nomad despite we don't know his ethnicity certainly. Either Cuman or Bulgar, I can say.


Target: Kaspias_Early
Distance: 8.8255% / 0.08825509
43.8 Oghuz
25.2 Kipchak
17.6 Ugric
13.4 Siberia

Target: Thracian_Early
Distance: 17.4918% / 0.17491795
60.0 Oghuz
39.2 Siberia
0.8 Ugric

Target: Deniz_Early
Distance: 24.9082% / 0.24908160
76.4 Steppe-Nomad
23.6 Ugric


Lol at @Deniz.

Deliormanlı effect

[Thracian]

Late samples are also give clues about migration as early ones did, but didn't want to post late ones for now to don't make people confused. I probably will open a seperate thread for them, too. I know it has been three threads already, but if I post everything in one thread it will be confusing :D

I think this should work for early:


Siberia:MNG_Hovsgol_BA_o2,0.085367,-0.12491,0.058831,0.052649,-0.038469,0.003068,-0.00705,-0.006692,-0.011453,-0.024055,-0.012504,-3e-04,0.00446,-0.023258,0.011401,0.012596,-0.000652,-0.003041,0.005028,0.014507,-0.017469,0.001855,-0.000246,0.010242,-0.001078
Ugric:FIN_Levanluhta_IA,0.1044325,-0.036051,0.1057825,0.0792965,-0.0122328,0.008576,0.006169,0.0141918,0.0037328,-0.0303422,0.033046,-0.0083175,0.019772,-0.0182695,-0.0065485,-0.0034805,-3.28e-05,-0.0031672,-0.0073848,0.0008442,0.016658,-0.0018547,-0.0016945,0.004097,0.0008382
Steppe-Nomad:RUS_Nomad_MA,0.087644,-0.090382,0.050534,0.031331,-0.036314,-0.008925,0.00376,0.007384,-0.009613,-0.016037,-0.007632,-0.001499,0.002527,-0.007019,-0.002172,-0.007425,-0.011735,0.004814,0.004022,-0.001,-0.004243,0.008779,0.001972,-0.00012,-0.002754
Kipchak:KAZ_Kipchak,0.0705705,-0.1269415,0.0273415,0.0046835,-0.039546,-0.00502,0.00564,0.013961,-0.003784,-0.007836,-0.012991,0.000225,0.0037165,-0.005092,0.000746,0.010607,0.007497,-0.0023435,0.005845,0.005065,-0.0101695,0.000742,-0.0027115,0.0013255,-0.002455
Oghuz:Turkic_Anatolia-avg,0.078696873,-0.083963831,0.024335737,0.006566527,-0.036170504,-0.002526961,0.009473932,0.007261605,-0.009136461,-0.012439212,-0.014328067,-0.001494711,0.001948896,-0.006808966,0.002674388,0.008160479,0.001206177,-6.72318E-05,-0.003722421,0.003261193,-0.012075227,0.000661755,-0.007766628,0.005433171,-0.000593954


I have to add that Steppe-Nomad despite we don't know his ethnicity certainly. Either Cuman or Bulgar, I can say.


Target: Kaspias_Early
Distance: 8.8255% / 0.08825509
43.8 Oghuz
25.2 Kipchak
17.6 Ugric
13.4 Siberia

Target: Thracian_Early
Distance: 17.4918% / 0.17491795
60.0 Oghuz
39.2 Siberia
0.8 Ugric

Target: Deniz_Early
Distance: 24.9082% / 0.24908160
76.4 Steppe-Nomad
23.6 Ugric


Lol at @Deniz.

Yes, you are right. We can discuss about it later in your thread :D

[Kaspias]

Deliormanlı effect

Edit: I removed Kipchak, makes more sense now.

https://i.ibb.co/HxkwtHY/northv2-vert.jpg

[Hapanuwa]

Amazing work Kaspias!
Any chance you could model me too?

[Kaspias]

Amazing work Kaspias!
Any chance you could model me too?

Can you post your scaled G25 coordinates?

[Hapanuwa]

Can you post your scaled G25 coordinates?

Look in your PMs

[Reis-i Cumhur]

Üstadım,Şimdi balkanlara gelen türkler,Ege bölgesine yerleştirilen türkler, giresuna ve balıkesire gelen alevi türkler ya da ramazanoğlu gibi ataları selçuklu dönemine dayanan türklerin hepsinin farklı türk ataları olduğunu mu söylüyorsun ?
Benim şahsi kanaatim iskan politikası ile gelen türklerin aynı boydan olduğu diğerleri ise farklı.
Bu sonuca göre Türkiyeye gelenler özbekistandan mı geliyor ?

[Kaspias]

Üstadım,Şimdi balkanlara gelen türkler,Ege bölgesine yerleştirilen türkler, giresuna ve balıkesire gelen alevi türkler ya da ramazanoğlu gibi ataları selçuklu dönemine dayanan türklerin hepsinin farklı türk ataları olduğunu mu söylüyorsun ?
Benim şahsi kanaatim iskan politikası ile gelen türklerin aynı boydan olduğu diğerleri ise farklı.
Bu sonuca göre Türkiyeye gelenler özbekistandan mı geliyor ?

Hayır. Anadolu için konuşayım, Anadolu'da Türki karışımın genetik devamlılığı var, her bölgede aynı. Bu da tüm beyliklerin aynı kökenden geldiği anlamına gelmeli. Farklı karakteristik taşıyan varsa da çoğunluk arasında emilmiş olmalı. Ama bu devamlılık Balkanlarda kısmen bozuluyor. Yine büyük bir miktarı Oğuz boyları oluşturuyor, ama ilave katkılarda görüyoruz. Bu zaten Tatar iskânlarından dolayı beklendik bir durumdu.

Bu aslında nereden geldikleri ile alakalı değil. Bu sonuç Oğuzların günümüz halklarından en çok Özbekler'e yakın olduğunu söylüyor, ama bu tabiri caizse sahte bir yakınlık. Özbek oldukları anlamına gelmiyor. Benzer oranda Doğu Avrasya taşıdıkları gibi varsayımlar yapılabilir.

[Kaspias]

Look in your PMs

I sent coordinates in PM.

https://i.ibb.co/wKMxLkd/Hapanuwa-horz.jpg

[axlredneck]

Here, try with these for Crimean Tatars.


Crimean_Tatar-1,0.093888175,-0.003120925,0.01496085,0.0077119,-0.00527425,0.005631075,0.004890225,0.00517615,-0.0062081,-0.007673275,-0.010532175,-0.0033592,0.005488375,0.002906575,-0.001579575,0.002079425,-0.000648325,-0.0007132,0.0001674,-0.00094855,-0.0057943,-0.00265465,0.00078555,-0.000320175,0.00177415
Crimean_Tatar-2,0.094295325,-0.052530125,0.041802975,0.009207625,0.003737425,0. 0035307,0.008920825,0.009814475,-0.004263325,-0.006684175,-0.01539485,-0.003059725,0.00549635,0.009372275,-0.004973075,-0.00079245,-0.000551175,0.0007985,0.00347725,0.000168675,-0.003762975,-0.0050479,-0.000410675,-0.0021343,0.001658725
Crimean-Tatar-3,0.0964011,-0.024653725,0.0346817,0.001229525,-0.005659125,-0.005193875,0.007362025,0.00788005,-0.00367352,0.000192125,-0.0108182,-0.00172585,0.0010737,0.0030462,-0.00207545,0.00095105,0.00093745,-0.00001015,0.0024612,0.001333775,-0.008610625,-0.0031374,-0.0043712,-0.000302825,0.000732775

[Kaspias]

Here, try with these for Crimean Tatars.


Crimean_Tatar-1,0.093888175,-0.003120925,0.01496085,0.0077119,-0.00527425,0.005631075,0.004890225,0.00517615,-0.0062081,-0.007673275,-0.010532175,-0.0033592,0.005488375,0.002906575,-0.001579575,0.002079425,-0.000648325,-0.0007132,0.0001674,-0.00094855,-0.0057943,-0.00265465,0.00078555,-0.000320175,0.00177415
Crimean_Tatar-2,0.094295325,-0.052530125,0.041802975,0.009207625,0.003737425,0. 0035307,0.008920825,0.009814475,-0.004263325,-0.006684175,-0.01539485,-0.003059725,0.00549635,0.009372275,-0.004973075,-0.00079245,-0.000551175,0.0007985,0.00347725,0.000168675,-0.003762975,-0.0050479,-0.000410675,-0.0021343,0.001658725
Crimean-Tatar-3,0.0964011,-0.024653725,0.0346817,0.001229525,-0.005659125,-0.005193875,0.007362025,0.00788005,-0.00367352,0.000192125,-0.0108182,-0.00172585,0.0010737,0.0030462,-0.00207545,0.00095105,0.00093745,-0.00001015,0.0024612,0.001333775,-0.008610625,-0.0031374,-0.0043712,-0.000302825,0.000732775


Thank you man! How did you find? I was looking for them for a long time.

What are their ethnicity? I mean Mountain, Steppe or Coast?

[axlredneck]

Thank you man! How did you find? I was looking for them for a long time.

What are their ethnicity? I mean Mountain, Steppe or Coast?

You share the results first; I'll reveal the whole thing later. They're Steppe Tatars.
You were looking for Crimean Steppe Tatars, right?

[axlredneck]

Double

[Nykyus]

I consider the Oghuz descendants of the Sakа. The first Oghuz in the Balkans were the Pechenegs. Their descendants are the Gagauz.

The Parthians were Turkized during the White Huns. Since then they have become Turkmens. The Parthians were a branch of Saka

[Kaspias]

You share the results first; I'll reveal the whole thing later. They're Steppe Tatars.
You were looking for Crimean Steppe Tatars, right?

I realized that these are subtracted coordinates, because they have 9 digits while they should have 7. :D

Also checked the results, they are indeed in Crimean Tatar range(I suppose you used Lipka Tatars for proxy while subtracting) but this is not the problem. While I'm subtracting Turkic admixture I'm trying to isolate it by adding a lot of West Eurasian components but only one base Turkic component. This is resulting with "free" output. Any other admixture can be related with Eurasian Steppe, Siberia, Central Asia, Iran is clustering on that base Turkic component and gives us chance to zoom them. That's why each person has different output despite I use the same Turkic component for everyone.

The thing here, If I'm going to use these three samples for Crimean Tatars, their Turkic admixture will be heavily Ugric, not because Crimean Tatars Ugrics but Lipka Tatars are descendants of Kazan Tatars, and Kazan Tatars brings a bunch of Ugric admixture. That's why I don't want to use subtracted Crimean Tatar samples, if I would it is really easy to create coordinates similar to actual Crimean Tatars. But I'm interested in their own Turkic admixture, I believe there are differences with other Tatar groups. Thank you for effort anyway!

Also, I want to ask something to you if you are aware of it or not. While searching Tatar migration to the Balkans I see that there are around 100k Tatars settled to Ludogorie(we name Deliorman), and these Tatars are not coming from Crimea but from Moldova(Ottoman registers, dates to 1800s). Do you have an idea what are their root, subgroup?

Second question, I suspect that there is a variety among Crimean Tatars(Steppe). If you check their results in Gedmatch, in terms of Eurogenes K13, you will see that some score ~25% Siberian and only around 5% East Asian, while some score 15-15. The exactly same case among Balkan and Anatolian Turks. Anatolian Turks usually get half-half, sometimes even more East Asian. But it is like 5 Siberian and only 1 East Asian among Balkan Turks. I have seen one who score more than 8 Siberian but zero East Asian. What can cause such a difference? That Siberian thing reflected G25 results too.

[axlredneck]

I didn't subtract the thing, instead I added the population according to the 4-way oracle from Gedmatch. It was something like Ashkenazi + Russian + Uzbek + Uyghur for one of them.

[axlredneck]

I don't think Lipkas have any Volga Tatar ancestry. They were mostly Kyrgyz-like; later admixture with Western Slavs/Balts (+ some Caucasian) could bring them somewhere close to Tatars and Bashkirs.

Those Moldovan Tatars could actually have a Nogai origin, not sure though.

[PAGANE]

I realized that these are subtracted coordinates, because they have 9 digits while they should have 7. :D

Also checked the results, they are indeed in Crimean Tatar range(I suppose you used Lipka Tatars for proxy while subtracting) but this is not the problem. While I'm subtracting Turkic admixture I'm trying to isolate it by adding a lot of West Eurasian components but only one base Turkic component. This is resulting with "free" output. Any other admixture can be related with Eurasian Steppe, Siberia, Central Asia, Iran is clustering on that base Turkic component and gives us chance to zoom them. That's why each person has different output despite I use the same Turkic component for everyone.

The thing here, If I'm going to use these three samples for Crimean Tatars, their Turkic admixture will be heavily Ugric, not because Crimean Tatars Ugrics but Lipka Tatars are descendants of Kazan Tatars, and Kazan Tatars brings a bunch of Ugric admixture. That's why I don't want to use subtracted Crimean Tatar samples, if I would it is really easy to create coordinates similar to actual Crimean Tatars. But I'm interested in their own Turkic admixture, I believe there are differences with other Tatar groups. Thank you for effort anyway!

Also, I want to ask something to you if you are aware of it or not. While searching Tatar migration to the Balkans I see that there are around 100k Tatars settled to Ludogorie(we name Deliorman), and these Tatars are not coming from Crimea but from Moldova(Ottoman registers, dates to 1800s). Do you have an idea what are their root, subgroup?

Second question, I suspect that there is a variety among Crimean Tatars(Steppe). If you check their results in Gedmatch, in terms of Eurogenes K13, you will see that some score ~25% Siberian and only around 5% East Asian, while some score 15-15. The exactly same case among Balkan and Anatolian Turks. Anatolian Turks usually get half-half, sometimes even more East Asian. But it is like 5 Siberian and only 1 East Asian among Balkan Turks. I have seen one who score more than 8 Siberian but zero East Asian. What can cause such a difference? That Siberian thing reflected G25 results too.

Tatars are a small ethnic group inhabiting the country. According to the 2001 census, 1803 people identified themselves as Tatars, with a small majority of people living in villages. Much larger, however, is the number of Tatar-listed mother tongues. The first appearance of Tatars in our lands dates from the 13th century (1242 - 1243), when Khan Batu's troops invaded and ravaged Bulgarian territory on their return from Hungary and Dalmatia. In the following decades, some of the Golden Horde Tatars made regular raids in Dobrudzha. Ivaylo's rebellion (1277 - 1280) temporarily stopped them until the emergence of Nogai's regular army, which besieged him, and later killed him. However, the next Bulgarian ruler, George I Terter, is forced to acknowledge his dependence on the Tartars as sending his son Theodor Svetoslav as hostage to the Golden Horde and giving his daughter to Chaka's son, Khan Nogay's son. In 1300, Chaka occupied the Bulgarian throne, but later that year he was overthrown by Theodor Svetoslav himself and killed and his head sent to his opponent, Khan Toku, as a token of friendship. The first settlements of Tatars in northeastern Bulgaria date back to that time. In the travelogue of the Pole Jan Gniński from 1677, more than 200 Tatar villages in Dobrudzha are told.
Later, in the 18th century, after the annexation of the Crimean Peninsula to Russia in 1784, individual Tartar princes settled around Sliven, Yambol and Varbitsa (Gerlovo), according to privileges granted to them by the Ottoman authorities. The largest Tartar migrations date from the 19th century, after the Russo-Turkish wars of 1806 - 1812, 1828 - 1829 and the Crimean War (1853 - 1856).
Some well-known Bulgarian Tatars in present-day Bulgaria, and some abroad, are the poet Lehman Balbeck, the economist-politician Reich Ablekim, the sculptor Zuhht Kalit, the artist Keazim Isinov, the Turkologist Moufkere Mollova and others.
In Dobrich the cultural and educational society "Navrez" is active, in Vetovo (Rousse) - the cultural and educational association of the Crimean Tatars in Bulgaria "ASABAY". The modern Tatar community in Bulgaria includes descendants of the Crimean Tatars who left the Crimean peninsula on several emigration waves during the 15th-19th centuries, most notably after the Crimean War of 1853-1856 between the Russian and Ottoman empires. They are mainly settled in the region of Dobrudja as well as in Northern Bulgaria. According to the results of ethnological surveys conducted between 2002 and 2009, they can be estimated to be about 4,000. At first glance, the Crimean Tatars, in their cultural heritage, resemble the Turks in the country because of their common use of the Turkish language and religious affiliation with Islam. But if we get to know the Crimean Tatar community more closely, we will find a different ethnic community with its specificities. The language and religion of the Crimean Tatars, their physical and anthropological traits, their family and group customs, food, clothing, folklore and dance, past occupations and characteristic brick houses are the main elements that distinguish them and maintain their identity and connection. with the Crimea. In Bulgaria, the members of this ethnic group are three-linguals. They speak Bulgarian, Turkish and Crimean Tatar. The use of the latter is a sign of ethnicity and his ignorance is considered shameful by members of the community. The saying "Breast milk is a sin if you don't know your mother tongue" is widespread. The Tatars' affiliation with Sunni Islam unites them with the large Muslim community in the country. On the other hand, the preference for visiting the so-called. "Tatar" mosques, to spiritual self-taught leaders (men and women hojis) of the same origin, the presence of practices and elements recognized as "Tatar" in religious rituals creates a certain ethnic specificity. Next, most Tatars consider themselves to have distinctive physical characteristics. A person with a wide face, Mongoloid eye shape, pronounced cheekbones is considered "true Tatar". Rites at birth, wedding and funeral are largely subject to religious norms. At the same time, they are in a situation of transition to different modern forms, and they can find a number of different traditions. In post-natal rites, the name is impressed, in which the representatives of the community prefer the so-called. "Tatar" personal names - Ablekim, Jengiz, Peim, Aryle, Timur and others. In families where there are cases of infant mortality, newborns are given the names containing the prefix "kurt" (translated into Bulgarian - "wolf"), such as Kurtnebi, Kurtvely, Kurtsuyun, etc. It is believed that this name acquires apotropic power and protects against bad spirits.
Wedding arrangements are characterized by the pursuit of marital endogamy or preference for a marriage partner from the same community, despite the widespread practice of marrying local Turks. According to the memories of the traditional form of customs, they can be distinguished in several stages: a festive meal is organized at the girl's home on Friday evening ("jamat ash"); the bridegroom "takes" the bride from her home ("kellin almak") on Saturday; a wedding celebration that is considered to be a more contemporary element; the bride's entry into her new home. Funeral rites are performed according to religious norms, and the following practices are generally preserved to this day: the dead are buried up to 24 hours after the death; it is wrapped only in white linen (kefin) and enclosed in a wooden stretcher (tabut); only men attend the funeral; changes are made (mawlids), known in the Dobrudzha region, which are guided by self-taught Hajji Tatars or Turks, and to which "Tatar" foods are prepared. It is believed that on the 52nd day after death the nose of the dead falls. Prepare an oguz burek (pasta) fried with red pepper and onion, "dead to smell, not to hurt."
At the heart of calendar customs, on the one hand, is the religious tradition (Kurban and Ramazan Bairam) and, on the other, the ethnic tradition (Navrez, Yavour Gozyu, Kudrlez, Tepresh). The biggest community holiday is the Teresh. The Tatars gather annually in May at or near different villages in the region of Dobrudzha and Rousse, marking their meeting with various cultural initiatives. In the past, this day was the occasion for the so-called. Tatar struggles, in which young people from different neighborhoods and villages measure strength. The daily and ritual food of the Crimean Tatars includes a variety of specific dishes - different types of burets (tartarburk, ogubbyurek, shubyurek, etc.), soup (kashkubyurek cherbasy, ekmek cherbasy), kobe, peshlokum, manto, which include In fact, the so-called The Tatar meatball, which is offered in most Bulgarian restaurants, is unknown in the tradition of the community. Memories of horse meat consumption in the past are preserved. Despite observance of religious taboos on pork and alcohol, the saying that the right of the Tartar is on meat and brandy ("etle ve raku tatar khak") is widespread in the Dobrudzha region. In addition, the Tatars consider themselves to be the "discoverers" of the pastrami - "they used to put it under the horses' seats for a better time to dry." The food is also used as a sign of differentiation from the Turkish community - "give the Turks a ram and give us meat." Nowadays, the recognition of the Crimean Tatars with their homeland continues to be marked by the use of various symbols, the most visible of which is the Crimean Tatar flag - light blue with the golden dam of the Guerra dynasty that ruled the Crimean Khanate from 1449 to 1783. community traditions lead to the formation of conceptions of the Tartar, which influence both the construction of a strong ethnic identity and their differentiation from the surrounding society.
https://balgarskaetnografia.com/images/internal-main/IV.5.13-%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8-%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8.jpghttps://balgarskaetnografia.com/images/internal-main/IV.5.13-%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B6%D0%B0.jpg