The Greeks Really do Have Near Mythical Origins, Ancient DNA Reveals

[Rabbit Hole]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whmvAPg7Yn8

And the origin of haplogroup H ( originally Indo European )

https://dnaconsultants.com/product/primeval-dna-test/minoans-and-mycenaeans/?fbclid=IwAR3k8eAQjpX1PVXgwK-CEK9E4bxNXaqnulINW4YsnQAPP7HwbmDoD-FUnk8

MINOANS AND MYCENAEANS
Minoans and Mycenaeans | Mediterranean Europe | Greece | 1,700-1,200 BCE (Bronze Age)
When the Greek island of Thera blew up one summer’s day in or around 1646 BCE, it is believed to have been the largest, most violent volcanic eruption ever witnessed by humans in the historical era. With the force of forty atomic bombs, the explosion appears to have vaporized the interior of the island, killed 20,000 people and thrown a layer of ash and pumice over the luxury villas on the hill measuring 130 feet deep today. Researchers note that Chinese annals recorded the event on the other side of the world, and tree rings as far away as California and Ireland registered the effect. It snuffed out Minoan civilization, Europe’s first, and gave rise to the story of Atlantis, as told to Pericles by Egyptian priests and repeated by Plato, the destruction of a powerful maritime state in “one dreadful day and one dreadful night.”

After the downfall of the Minoans in the mid-second millennium, it was left to the Mycenaeans, allies from mainland Greece, to pick up the pieces. Many of King Minos’ merchantmen must have been far off at sea and escaped harm. The Mycenaeans ruled in the Minoans’ stead until the Trojan War, when a second world catastrophe struck about the year 1100, followed by five centuries marked by the Doric and Ionic invasions and known as the Greek Dark Ages.

The five ancient “Atlantis survivors,” as they could be dubbed, were recovered from four different sites in present-day Greece, one from near Athens, one from the Peloponnese and the other three from Crete. A female’s grave was used from Agia Kyriaki on the island of Salamis west of Athens. A second female came from an elite Mycenaean tomb in Peristeria on the Peloponnese. A male and a female were recovered from the rock-cut tombs of Galatas Apatheia, near Chania, on the northwest coast of Crete.

Three out of four of the individuals in this test are women, and three out of four samples of mitochondrial DNA belonged to haplogroup X. This lineage is centered in the East Mediterranean but diffused sparsely all over the world, including in America. Many people consider X to be the signature of the Phoenicians, who followed in the sea paths of the Minoans and Mycenaeans. One individual belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup H. The only male in the group carried Y-chromosomal haplogroup J2a1.

Code: MAM-11

Ancient DNA Hub Reference: Ayia Kyriaki, Armenoi, Galatas

Story ID: 10350

Contributing ancient genomes: 5 (Akhilleus, Ariadnh, Callisto, Karpathia, Poulxeria)

You may be interested in these present-day populations available in the DNA Fingerprint Plus:

Greece (n =208)

Greek – Northern (n=318)

Greek (n=143)

Greek (n=205)

Greek Cypriot (n=1475)

[Lucas]

WTF? You just read this few years old study? :)

[Rgvgjhvv]

We da best

[Rabbit Hole]

WTF? You just read this few years old study? :)

No I just felt the need to print it here so people can talk about it.

[Rabbit Hole]

We da best

I hope your account isn't a sock one. :)

[Altaison]

Yes, all Greeks I know had EHG coloring and WHG features.

[Rgvgjhvv]

I hope your account isn't a sock one. :)

?

[Rabbit Hole]

?

Location
Seoul City
Ethnicity
greek are arab ? You also have a pic of a Black sports player in your icon lol. Unless he's half Greek too?

[Rgvgjhvv]

Location
Seoul City
Ethnicity
greek are arab ? You also have a pic of a Black sports player in your icon lol. Unless he's half Greek too?

You are new here I see, lol. I am 100% Greek with roots from Samos.

Born in Korea.
greek are arab is a troll.
Giannis Antetokounmpo is the best basketball player in the world, lol. Born and raised in Greece he represents Greece in all facets of his life.

[Rabbit Hole]

Yes, all Greeks I know had EHG coloring and WHG features.

Please read the point of the link and watch the video especially if you take an interest in pre historic Caucasus populations too.

[Rabbit Hole]

You are new here I see, lol. I am 100% Greek with roots from Samos.

Born in Korea.
greek are arab is a troll.
Giannis Antetokounmpo is the best basketball player in the world, lol. Born and raised in Greece he represents Greece in all facets of his life.
Oh so you are Greek you are poking fun. Sorry I thought you were being sarcastic especially with that coloured chap in your avatar

[Rgvgjhvv]

Oh so you are Greek you are poking fun. Sorry I thought you were being sarcastic especially with that coloured chap in your avatar

Lol

[Tauromachos]

.
greek are arab is a troll.


Who is Greek are Arab?

[Rabbit Hole]

Who is Greek are Arab?

He is just saying that in his description. Please talk about the topic if you can.

[Rabbit Hole]

Who is Greek are Arab?

.

[Kmakkmak]

What is royal mycenaeans? R1a or R1b or J2?

[Konstantinos]

What is royal mycenaeans? R1a or R1b or J2?

Only 1 male sample so far, J2a.

[Kmakkmak]

Only 1 male sample so far, J2a.

J2a is royal or commoner?

[Konstantinos]

J2a is royal or commoner?

Don't remember and too lazy to check, although the authors said they didn't find autosomal differences between elites and commoners so probably the haplogroups were also similar.

[Bornoz]

You are new here I see, lol. I am 100% Greek with roots from Samos.

Born in Korea.
greek are arab is a troll.
Giannis Antetokounmpo is the best basketball player in the world, lol. Born and raised in Greece he represents Greece in all facets of his life.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xTiTnDAP0RiCo9k85W/giphy.gif

[Kmakkmak]

Don't remember and too lazy to check, although the authors said they didn't find autosomal differences between elites and commoners so probably the haplogroups were also similar.

Autosomal is no different I read it but Y DNA is key origin from they coming.

[Kaspias]

What is royal mycenaeans? R1a or R1b or J2?

Take it as only an opinion:

There is a genetic continuum between Minoans and Mycenaeans but Mycenaeans seems to have additional Steppe, considering they were the ones that gave identification, it is clear that royal ones were the Steppe people at the beginning.

I would go with R1b.

[Epirus DNA]

We da best

We really are da best! :high5

[Epirus DNA]

Take it as only an opinion:

There is a genetic continuum between Minoans and Mycenaeans but Mycenaeans seems to have additional Steppe, considering they were the ones that gave identification, it is clear that royal ones were the Steppe people at the beginning.

I would go with R1b.

Hell no. There is no way Agamemnon was an R1b pussy.

[Kmakkmak]

Hell no. There is no way Agamemnon was an R1b pussy.

Agamemnon Y DNA is obscure but I read on internet Mycennnan grave excavation

[Kmakkmak]

Hell no. There is no way Agamemnon was an R1b pussy.

Agamemnon Y DNA is obscure but I read on internet Mycennnan grave excavation

[Kmakkmak]

Take it as only an opinion:

There is a genetic continuum between Minoans and Mycenaeans but Mycenaeans seems to have additional Steppe, considering they were the ones that gave identification, it is clear that royal ones were the Steppe people at the beginning.

I would go with R1b.

I think you are agree.

[Konstantinos]

Take it as only an opinion:

There is a genetic continuum between Minoans and Mycenaeans but Mycenaeans seems to have additional Steppe, considering they were the ones that gave identification, it is clear that royal ones were the Steppe people at the beginning.

I would go with R1b.

That they brought R1b is almost certain, was it dominant though? Not sure. Remember the additional "eastern" ancestry could also be modelled via Armenia so it's still very open.

[Rabbit Hole]

That they brought R1b is almost certain, was it dominant though? Not sure. Remember the additional "eastern" ancestry could also be modelled via Armenia so it's still very open.

They used to words Caucasus admixture. Maybe some of the early Armenians were related to the Hittites too. I have heard some claims they are to do with the Hurranians too but i don't know

[Kaspias]

That they brought R1b is almost certain, was it dominant though? Not sure. Remember the additional "eastern" ancestry could also be modelled via Armenia so it's still very open.

Was it dominant among newcomers? That's a good question. I think it was somewhat dominant, but it is really open to discussing.

As far as I remember that Armenia sample used for modeling was steppe rich. I wondered actually, will check it tomorrow.

[Konstantinos]

They used to words Caucasus admixture. Maybe some of the early Armenians were related to the Hittites too. I have heard some claims they are to do with the Hurranians too but i don't know

What do you mean? Hurrians were some of the people that lived in the vicinity along with many others, IE and not. We need much more ancient DNA from there in space and time to know better.

[Rabbit Hole]

What do you mean? Hurrians were some of the people that lived in the vicinity along with many others, IE and not. We need much more ancient DNA from there in space and time to know better.

I know that's what I am saying in theory there needs to be more tests done. How would you even look at Hurrianian dna if we don't know fully who would descend from them apart from ( as a theory ) Armenians?

[Epirus DNA]

On the origin of R1a and R1b subclades in Greece

https://indo-european.eu/2017/06/on-the-origin-of-r1a-and-r1b-subclades-in-greece/

[Konstantinos]

On the origin of R1a and R1b subclades in Greece

https://indo-european.eu/2017/06/on-the-origin-of-r1a-and-r1b-subclades-in-greece/

Both arrived here most likely the last 4000 years, with R1a probably boosted by the Slavic invasions.

[Rabbit Hole]

On the origin of R1a and R1b subclades in Greece

https://indo-european.eu/2017/06/on-the-origin-of-r1a-and-r1b-subclades-in-greece/
Yes R1b is pretty common in Crete too, any explanations of that?

[Epirus DNA]

Both arrived here most likely the last 4000 years, with R1a probably boosted by the Slavic invasions.

The Slavs didn't really "invade" Greece. The Slavic migrations to Greece happened in the Middle Ages.

According to the also disproven and very discredited Fallmerayer theory, the Slavs who came to Greece killed all the Greeks entirely leaving nobody behind and replaced them (?), and the Greeks of minor Asia (Constantinople, Smyrna etc) that had survived the Slavic migration, re-Hellenized the people of mainland Greece.

This has not happened ever to any population. Not even the Neanderthals - 2–4% of European DNA is Neanderthal-derived -. Also this theory doesn’t take into account the fact that the Slavs didn’t go to whole of Greece, that they would Speak Slavic in Greece and not Greek today, that Slavs did not go to the coasts or islands or eastern Greece, that Byzantine historians do not mention any massacres from the Slavs - instead what they said is that they formed the infamous “Sklavinies”, or small places where they lived. etc. Generally this is a very discredited theory. Objectively most historians who have studied the matter cringe with such assumptions.

A much lighter version of this theory however is actually true - some Greeks mixed with Slavs, but not too much. According to genetics “Balkan” descent in the average Greek varies from 10–30% depending on the region too. Did you notice that I said Balkan and not Slavic? That is because Slavs are a linguistic group, not an ethnic one. In particular, the ones that came to Greece seemed to have had absorbed Thraco-illyrian and other groups of the Balkans. This can be verified by the skeletons of the only Slavic cemetery found in Greece, near Prespes. The skull shape of the “slavs” is actually of the Mediterranean type. They might have absorbed Greek populations before the mixing with the rest of Greece.

The Slavophones Greeks of northern Greece were a bilingual group of people who spoke Greek as a second language and a Slavic idiom as a first daily-talk language. That Slavic idiom has many Greek words - Estimates reach more than 52% (changes depending the area), and was mostly spoken in the mountains, away from other Greek speakers which means that this vocabulary was derived from the previous language they spoke - Greek. Many of them adopted Slavic to avoid Ottoman discrimination against Greek speakers, others because they were merchants and mostly traded with northern Slavs etc. They usually lived near other Slavs (Which is why they were linguistically “Slavified”) but had different national awareness which can be confirmed by the many wars and conflicts they had (most notably the Macedonian struggle). They attended different Churches (especially after the creation of the Bulgarian Exarchia) etc. Of course these people have higher Balkan Thraco-Illyrian blood from mixing but their Greek descent is stronger, which has been confirmed by DNA studies.

[Epirus DNA]

Yes R1b is pretty common in Crete too, any explanations of that?

Pretty common? J2a has the highest percentage in Crete.

[Konstantinos]

Yes R1b is pretty common in Crete too, any explanations of that?

Mycenaeans if they carried it, and Dorians may I say(just my opinion).

[Rabbit Hole]

Pretty common? J2a has the highest percentage in Crete.
I know a guy from Crete who is R1b actually but generally yes they are J2 subclades

[Epirus DNA]

Mycenaeans if they carried it, and Dorians may I say(just my opinion).

The Mycenaeans and Minoans were G & J. We have not found one sample that was R.

[Rabbit Hole]

I need to go but i will see if i can find some different papers on haplogroups tomorrow

[Konstantinos]

The Slavs didn't really "invade" Greece. The Slavic migrations to Greece happened in the Middle Ages.

According to the also disproven and very discredited Fallmerayer theory, the Slavs who came to Greece killed all the Greeks entirely leaving nobody behind and replaced them (?), and the Greeks of minor Asia (Constantinople, Smyrna etc) that had survived the Slavic migration, re-Hellenized the people of mainland Greece.

This has not happened ever to any population. Not even the Neanderthals - 2–4% of European DNA is Neanderthal-derived -. Also this theory doesn’t take into account the fact that the Slavs didn’t go to whole of Greece, that they would Speak Slavic in Greece and not Greek today, that Slavs did not go to the coasts or islands or eastern Greece, that Byzantine historians do not mention any massacres from the Slavs - instead what they said is that they formed the infamous “Sklavinies”, or small places where they lived. etc. Generally this is a very discredited theory. Objectively most historians who have studied the matter cringe with such assumptions.

A much lighter version of this theory however is actually true - some Greeks mixed with Slavs, but not too much. According to genetics “Balkan” descent in the average Greek varies from 10–30% depending on the region too. Did you notice that I said Balkan and not Slavic? That is because Slavs are a linguistic group, not an ethnic one. In particular, the ones that came to Greece seemed to have had absorbed Thraco-illyrian and other groups of the Balkans. This can be verified by the skeletons of the only Slavic cemetery found in Greece, near Prespes. The skull shape of the “slavs” is actually of the Mediterranean type. They might have absorbed Greek populations before the mixing with the rest of Greece.

The Slavophones Greeks of northern Greece were a bilingual group of people who spoke Greek as a second language and a Slavic idiom as a first daily-talk language. That Slavic idiom has many Greek words - Estimates reach more than 52% (changes depending the area), and was mostly spoken in the mountains, away from other Greek speakers which means that this vocabulary was derived from the previous language they spoke - Greek. Many of them adopted Slavic to avoid Ottoman discrimination against Greek speakers, others because they were merchants and mostly traded with northern Slavs etc. They usually lived near other Slavs (Which is why they were linguistically “Slavified”) but had different national awareness which can be confirmed by the many wars and conflicts they had (most notably the Macedonian struggle). They attended different Churches (especially after the creation of the Bulgarian Exarchia) etc. Of course these people have higher Balkan Thraco-Illyrian blood from mixing but their Greek descent is stronger, which has been confirmed by DNA studies.

I said invasions because they actually entered illegally Byzantine territory and attacked it, e.g. Thessaloniki. The reasons for their invasions may well be migration.

Fallmerayer and his theories are a joke even before DNA. Greeks today are more northern-shifted compared to Mycenaeans, some of it happened from Slavs but also some of it before that, e.g. from Hellenization of Thracians. Note that we don' have ancient DNA from Macedonia so we can't know if Greece was identical from north to south. Most likely there was a cline like it is today.

[Konstantinos]

The Mycenaeans and Minoans were G & J. We have not found one sample that was R.

We have only one Mycenaean male, J2a. They must have had some R1b and/or R1a otherwise when did it come here?

[Tauromachos]

Fallmerayer and his theories are a joke even before DNA. Greeks today are more northern-shifted compared to Mycenaeans, some of it happened from Slavs but also some of it before that, e.g. from Hellenization of Thracians. Note that we don' have ancient DNA from Macedonia so we can't know if Greece was identical from north to south.

Not necessarily identical but probably genetically not very different neither



Most likely there was a cline like it is today.

Yep,exactly

[Dimitri159]

Take it as only an opinion:

There is a genetic continuum between Minoans and Mycenaeans but Mycenaeans seems to have additional Steppe, considering they were the ones that gave identification, it is clear that royal ones were the Steppe people at the beginning.

I would go with R1b.

What is with this whole “Eurasian steppe” royalty shit? Why does every Greek on here express that the Ancient Greek elite was Northern European? I don’t get it.

[Tauromachos]

What is with this whole “Eurasian steppe” royalty shit? Why does every Greek on here express that the Ancient Greek elite was Northern European? I don’t get it.

:thumb001:

[Epirus DNA]

What is with this whole “Eurasian steppe” royalty shit? Why does every Greek on here express that the Ancient Greek elite was Northern European? I don’t get it.

They don't. Kaspias is Pomak.

Plus, people have opinions. That's okay. Opinions are allowed.

[Tauromachos]

They don't. Kaspias is Pomak.

Plus, people have opinions. That's okay. Opinions are allowed.

Agree but he said its clear that Mycanaean royals were Steppe

Why is it clear?

Its a possibility to be discussed or considered but its far from being clear i wouldn't even necessarily say that its
very likely to be true

[Dimitri159]

They don't. Kaspias is Pomak.

Plus, people have opinions. That's okay. Opinions are allowed.

I know it’s okay, but it doesn’t make sense it’s dumb. Whatever I say gets bashed on here anyways so have the right to do the same.

[Tauromachos]

I know it’s okay, but it doesn’t make sense it’s dumb. Whatever I say gets bashed on here anyways so have the right to do the same.

Dumb or not it is persistent because there is enough people who repeat it everywhere and alternative views don't get enough attention or support.

[Epirus DNA]

I know it’s okay, but it doesn’t make sense it’s dumb. Whatever I say gets bashed on here anyways so have the right to do the same.

You're too new to TA to be this disgruntled. Half the people on here are pimple popping teenagers without a higher education.

[Dimitri159]

Dumb or not it is persistent because there is enough people who repeat it everywhere and alternative views don't get enough attention or support.

You’re right. It’s not even that I’m wrong or a troll, it’s just that this forum is full of people who all think the same making it almost like a regime that suppresses any other thoughts. I’m glad you’re somewhere in between :).

[Konstantinos]

What is with this whole “Eurasian steppe” royalty shit? Why does every Greek on here express that the Ancient Greek elite was Northern European? I don’t get it.

Greeks since ever have been Med. Ancients even more so. Even before DNA it was the only logical conclusion.

[Tauromachos]

You’re right. It’s not even that I’m wrong or a troll, it’s just that this forum is full of people who all think the same making this it almost like a regime that suppresses any other thoughts. I’m glad you’re somewhere in between :).

If someone thinks or says something different to them they very quickly accuse him of trolling or try to ridicule him make
fun of his posts and personality

[Dimitri159]

You're too new to TA to be this disgruntled. Half the people on here are pimple popping teenagers without a higher education.

Or older people over 30 that are weirdos with no lives. Not saying anyone that age is using this is like that, just a select few here who are really dumb.

[Token]

That they brought R1b is almost certain, was it dominant though? Not sure. Remember the additional "eastern" ancestry could also be modelled via Armenia so it's still very open.

Mycenaeans don't fit as Minoan plus steppe, so the Proto-Greeks couldn't have been fully steppe. Something like CWC or Steppe_MLBA fits, plus something from the Caucasus.

[Epirus DNA]

Mycenaeans don't fit as Minoan plus steppe, so the Proto-Greeks couldn't have been fully steppe. Something like CWC or Steppe_MLBA fits, plus something from the Caucasus.

Minoan_Lasithi I0073
Y-DNA: J2a1i
GedMatch Kit Z445292

Mycenaean I9041
Y-DNA: J2a1i
GedMatch Kit Z667807

MA2200 Kalehoyuk c. 1750 BCE
Y-DNA: J-L26 (J2a1)
GedMatch Kit Z020190

MA2212 Ovaören 2400-2100 BCE
Y-DNA: J-M410 (J2a)
GedMatch Kit Z208691

I find it interesting that this Y-DNA is found with the Minoans and Mycenaeans as well as in Kalehoyuk.

I0073 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)

I9041 Mycenaean J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)

[Dimitri159]

Mycenaeans don't fit as Minoan plus steppe, so the Proto-Greeks couldn't have been fully steppe. Something like CWC or Steppe_MLBA fits, plus something from the Caucasus.

Even the Steppe input was very small, like 4-16% as I mentioned so many times on another thread. In modern times it’s probably slightly more but only in the northern most regions of Greece where Slavic communities would have existed and intermixed.

[Token]

Minoan_Lasithi I0073
Y-DNA: J2a1i
GedMatch Kit Z445292

Mycenaean I9041
Y-DNA: J2a1i
GedMatch Kit Z667807

MA2200 Kalehoyuk c. 1750 BCE
Y-DNA: J-L26 (J2a1)
GedMatch Kit Z020190

MA2212 Ovaören 2400-2100 BCE
Y-DNA: J-M410 (J2a)
GedMatch Kit Z208691

I find it interesting that this Y-DNA is found with the Minoans and Mycenaeans as well as in Kalehoyuk.

I0073 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)

I9041 Mycenaean J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)

Mycenaeans were very clearly still overwhelmingly 'Minoan'. The continuity is indeed strong, even in uniparentals.

[Konstantinos]

Mycenaeans don't fit as Minoan plus steppe, so the Proto-Greeks couldn't have been fully steppe. Something like CWC or Steppe_MLBA fits, plus something from the Caucasus.

I think archaelogists always believed Proto-Greeks came from Anatolia, so maybe ultimately from Caucasus.

[FinalFlash]

I know that's what I am saying in theory there needs to be more tests done. How would you even look at Hurrianian dna if we don't know fully who would descend from them apart from ( as a theory ) Armenians?

Hurrian darling, Hurrian.

[Token]

I think archaelogists always believed Proto-Greeks came from Anatolia, so maybe ultimately from Caucasus.

The Balkans seems more likely. I believe most linguists would agree.

[Token]

We need something to account for the relationship between Greek and Armenian, and Armenian was clearly part of the Paleo-Balkan sprachbund

[Konstantinos]

We need something to account for the relationship between Greek and Armenian, and Armenian was clearly part of the Paleo-Balkan sprachbund

Is it clearly? I've heard about Phrygian-Armenian but nothing definite. Also, Anatolia explains Greek-Armenian relationship.

[SharpFork]

Mycenaeans don't fit as Minoan plus steppe, so the Proto-Greeks couldn't have been fully steppe. Something like CWC or Steppe_MLBA fits, plus something from the Caucasus.
Why do you think that?
But you are right in saying that more Caucasian ancestry is necessary if a later group was the source of the Steppe ancestry.

[SharpFork]

Even the Steppe input was very small, like 4-16% as I mentioned so many times on another thread. In modern times it’s probably slightly more but only in the northern most regions of Greece where Slavic communities would have existed and intermixed.
Even Cretans and people from Kos have more steppe than the Mycenean or the Greek Empureis one average, not by much but still. Only Pontic, Cappadocian and Cypriot Greeks seem to have less Steppe so far, but they themselves were mixed from the start as far as we can theorize.

[sailormoon]

Mycenaeans can be modeled as a mixture of the Anatolian Neolithic and Chalcolithic-to-Bronze Age populations from Armenia (Lazaridis et al. 2017). Mycenaeans can also be modelled as a mixture of Minoans and Bronze Age steppe populations (13–18%) in mainland Greece only. Minoans, who founded the first Greek civilization in Crete, lacked steppe ancestry but Mycenaeans who settled in mainland Greece could not escape Steppe_MLBA admixture.



The Minoans and Mycenaeans, sampled from different sites in Crete and mainland Greece, were homogeneous, supporting the genetic coherency of these two groups. Differences between them are only relative, viewed against their broad overall similarity to each other and to the southwestern Anatolians, sharing in both the ‘local’ Anatolian Neolithic-like farmer ancestry and the ‘eastern’ Caucasus-related admixture. Two key questions remain to be addressed by future studies. First, when did the common ‘eastern’ ancestry of both Minoans and Mycenaeans arrive in the Aegean? Second, is the ‘northern’ ancestry in Mycenaeans due to sporadic infiltration of Greece, or the result of a rapid migration as in Central Europe6? Such a migration would support the idea that Proto-Greek speakers29 formed the southern wing of a steppe intrusion of Indo-European speakers. Yet, the absence of ‘northern’ ancestry in the Bronze Age samples from Pisidia, where Indo-European languages were attested in antiquity, casts doubt on this genetic-linguistic association, with further sampling of ancient Anatolian speakers needed. Whatever the answer to these questions, the discovery of at least two migration events into the Aegean in addition to the first farming dispersal and before the Bronze Age, and of additional population change since that time, supports the view that the Greeks did not emerge fully-formed from the depths of prehistory, but were, indeed, a people ‘ever in the process of becoming.’30
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/

[Rabbit Hole]

Greeks since ever have been Med. Ancients even more so. Even before DNA it was the only logical conclusion.

Yes always and never any different if they are haplogroup H maternally they were Eastern Med

About this R1b..I think the original strains came from the Armenian highland like Fertile Cresent area

[Rabbit Hole]

Hurrian darling, Hurrian.

I know it was half 12 and I was tired, darling.

[Rabbit Hole]

Even Cretans and people from Kos have more steppe than the Mycenean or the Greek Empureis one average, not by much but still. Only Pontic, Cappadocian and Cypriot Greeks seem to have less Steppe so far, but they themselves were mixed from the start as far as we can theorize.

But how is it possible? Was that anything to do with the R1b substrains there?

[Token]

Formal admixture test for Mycenaeans:

Mycenaean
Greece_N
Anatolia_BA
Steppe_EMBA
Europe_MNChL

right pops:
Ust_Ishim
Mota
Anatolia_N
Levant_N
Iran_N
WHG
EHG
CHG


best coefficients: 0.423 0.424 0.130 0.023

std. errors: 0.112 0.108 0.033 0.050

13% Yamnaya (standard error 3.3%). If the Indo-European population was already mixed, that could become 20%. Needless to say Minoans had 0.0%.

Here are the results of a Cretan female from an elite burial.

Crete_Armenoi
Europe_MNChL
Minoan_Lasithi
Steppe_EMBA

right pops:
Ust_Ishim
Mota
Anatolia_N
Levant_N
Iran_N
WHG
EHG
CHG


best coefficients: 0.265 0.498 0.238

std. errors: 0.109 0.093 0.049


fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 5 4.558 0.47222 0.265 0.498 0.238

24% Steppe (more or less in North Italian and Iberian level, standard error 4.9%). So the elite might have been indeed more Steppe. She also requires a lot of European farmer admixture that is not in Minoans, so she might have been nearly 50% non-local.

[Rabbit Hole]

Formal admixture test for Mycenaeans:

Mycenaean
Greece_N
Anatolia_BA
Steppe_EMBA
Europe_MNChL

right pops:
Ust_Ishim
Mota
Anatolia_N
Levant_N
Iran_N
WHG
EHG
CHG


best coefficients: 0.423 0.424 0.130 0.023

std. errors: 0.112 0.108 0.033 0.050

13% Yamnaya (standard error 3.3%). If the Indo-European population was already mixed, that could become 20%. Needless to say Minoans had 0.0%.

Here are the results of a Cretan female from an elite burial.

Crete_Armenoi
Europe_MNChL
Minoan_Lasithi
Steppe_EMBA

right pops:
Ust_Ishim
Mota
Anatolia_N
Levant_N
Iran_N
WHG
EHG
CHG


best coefficients: 0.265 0.498 0.238

std. errors: 0.109 0.093 0.049


fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 5 4.558 0.47222 0.265 0.498 0.238

24% Steppe (more or less in North Italian and Iberian level, standard error 4.9%). So the elite might have been indeed more Steppe. She also requires a lot of European farmer admixture that is not in Minoans, so she might have been nearly 50% non-local.

Minoans were older than Mycenaeans that's why but similar culturally and genetically. Mycenaean may have took a bit more Steppe/Near Eastern admixture but I don't know.

[Token]

Even Cretans and people from Kos have more steppe than the Mycenean or the Greek Empureis one average, not by much but still. Only Pontic, Cappadocian and Cypriot Greeks seem to have less Steppe so far, but they themselves were mixed from the start as far as we can theorize.

You will need quite a bit of Slavic to compensate for Hellenistic Anatolia movements into Crete and still elevate WSH admixture. A recent study om Cretans supports that.

[Token]

Minoans were older than Mycenaeans that's why but similar culturally and genetically. Mycenaean may have took a bit more Steppe/Near Eastern admixture but I don't know.

20% is not a bit for me, and these are just the commoners.

[Rabbit Hole]

20% is not a bit for me, and these are just the commoners.

Then why don't you leave? We are talking about ancient populations here anyway, you know like the cradle of civilization? Do you have a problem with that or something?

[Konstantinos]

Formal admixture test for Mycenaeans:

Mycenaean
Greece_N
Anatolia_BA
Steppe_EMBA
Europe_MNChL

right pops:
Ust_Ishim
Mota
Anatolia_N
Levant_N
Iran_N
WHG
EHG
CHG


best coefficients: 0.423 0.424 0.130 0.023

std. errors: 0.112 0.108 0.033 0.050

13% Yamnaya (standard error 3.3%). If the Indo-European population was already mixed, that could become 20%. Needless to say Minoans had 0.0%.

Here are the results of a Cretan female from an elite burial.

Crete_Armenoi
Europe_MNChL
Minoan_Lasithi
Steppe_EMBA

right pops:
Ust_Ishim
Mota
Anatolia_N
Levant_N
Iran_N
WHG
EHG
CHG


best coefficients: 0.265 0.498 0.238

std. errors: 0.109 0.093 0.049


fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 5 4.558 0.47222 0.265 0.498 0.238

24% Steppe (more or less in North Italian and Iberian level, standard error 4.9%). So the elite might have been indeed more Steppe. She also requires a lot of European farmer admixture that is not in Minoans, so she might have been nearly 50% non-local.

Nice analysis. I have two notes.

The authors are quoted as saying that there was no difference in elite vs commoner genetics. We need many more samples to be sure and from different places and times.

Crete_Armenoi is reliable or not? I remember reading that it had few snps and was not reliable. Do you have an opinion on that?

[Rabbit Hole]

Nice analysis. I have two notes.

The authors are quoted as saying that there was no difference in elite vs commoner genetics. We need many more samples to be sure and from different places and times.

Crete_Armenoi is reliable or not? I remember reading that it had few snps and was not reliable. Do you have an opinion on that?

Who cares whether they're no difference between commoner and elite? We are talking about the cradle of civilization here and the people who brought it. Why even justify it with a answer?

[Konstantinos]

You will need quite a bit of Slavic to compensate for Hellenistic Anatolia movements into Crete and still elevate WSH admixture. A recent study om Cretans supports that.

I'm confused here. Is there a study that shows Crete received Anatolian Greeks then significant Slavic in the Middle Ages?

[Token]

Then why don't you leave? We are talking about ancient populations here anyway, you know like the cradle of civilization? Do you have a problem with that or something?

Leave for? I'm contributing to the thread much more than you are. Do you have a problem with Mycenaeans being 20% Corded Ware-like? Do you think militaristic steppe culture and Indo-European languages came from the heaven?

[Konstantinos]

Who cares whether they're no difference between commoner and elite? We are talking about the cradle of civilization here and the people who brought it. Why even justify it with a answer?

I'm trying to understand what happened. As a Greek amateur I'm interested in our genetics. At this moment I feel there is no definite answer on the route Proto-Greeks took to reach the Mainland when taking into account all the disciplines. Since I don't use genetic programs myself it's illuminating for my thought process to search for the output those with tools provide.

[Rabbit Hole]

Leave for? I'm contributing to the thread much more than you are. Do you have a problem with Mycenaeans being 20% Corded Ware-like? Do you think militaristic steppe culture and Indo-European languages came from the heaven?

What on earth are you talking about? You said they have 20 percent and yet that is just the ''common folk'' not the ''warrior elite'' I am asking you, what is your point there?

[Token]

Nice analysis. I have two notes.

The authors are quoted as saying that there was no difference in elite vs commoner genetics. We need many more samples to be sure and from different places and times.

Crete_Armenoi is reliable or not? I remember reading that it had few snps and was not reliable. Do you have an opinion on that?
The Crete_Armenoi sample is moderate quality. Not high quality but still not that bad. By the way, she is the sample that is most similar to mainland Greeks.

The only elite sample is the Cretan one, not enough to say that there was a difference. But there is a paper on Greece coming out soon, and it will include much more samples.

[AdrianV]

Where can I get a good gyro?

[Token]

What on earth are you talking about? You said they have 20 percent and yet that is just the ''common folk'' not the ''warrior elite'' I am asking you, what is your point there?

I said nothing about warrior elites, i just showed there was more Steppe in a elite female sample. Show me otherwise or piss off.

[Renekton]

Sub

[Konstantinos]

The Crete_Armenoi sample is moderate quality. Not high quality but still not that bad. By the way, she is the sample that is most similar to mainland Greeks.

The only elite sample is the Cretan one, not enough to say that there was a difference. But there is a paper on Greece coming out soon, and it will include much more samples.

Indeed Crete_Armenoi is closer to mainland Greeks, along with it being later close to the Dorian invasion. That has led many to assume that the Dorians were more steppe-heavy and most steppe in Greeks is from them, but since it's only one sample and nothing in particular demonstrates she was part of the Dorian invasion, I believe we can't make conclusions.

Do you know approximately when the paper is out? We know the genetic diversity of every NW European village, which isn't big to begin with, and Greece which I believe alone is more diverse than that huge area is severely understudied. As a Greek that's very disappointing since we don't have many samples to draw conclusions.

[Konstantinos]

Where can I get a good gyro?

Do you want lamb on Easter instead?

[Token]

I'm confused here. Is there a study that shows Crete received Anatolian Greeks then significant Slavic in the Middle Ages?

Yes. I'm not in my computer to search for the paper, but a quick google search in Anthrogenica will do the job.

[Tauromachos]

Indeed Crete_Armenoi is closer to mainland Greeks, along with it being later close to the Dorian invasion. That has led many to assume that the Dorians were more steppe-heavy and most steppe in Greeks is from them, but since it's only one sample and nothing in particular demonstrates she was part of the Dorian invasion, I believe we can't make conclusions.


Dorian might have been more Steppe shifted than Mycanaean but what i personally don't believe is what many people here seem to do
that they equate Dorians as such with these Steppe people who started mixing with Mycanaeans during the Bronze Age

[Rabbit Hole]

I said nothing about warrior elites, i just showed there was more Steppe in a elite female sample. Show me otherwise or piss off.

Yes so why would you think I have a problem with that you used the words commoner.

[Epirus DNA]

I3708, I3709, I3920, Neolithic, 5500-3700 BCE

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135616 (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135616)

I3708
mtDNA: T1a

I3709
mtDNA: K1b1a

I3920
mtDNA: H

I2318, Final Neolithic, 4043-3947 calBCE

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135616 (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135616)

I2318
mtDNA: H2

I0071, I0070, I0073, I0074, I9005, Minoan, 2000-1700 BCE

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature23310.html
doi:10.1038/nature23310

I0071:
mtDNA: U5a1

I0070:
mtDNA: H13a1
Y-DNA: J2a1d

I0073:
mtDNA: H
Y-DNA: J2a1

I0074:
mtDNA: H5

I9005:
mtDNA: H

I9033, Mycenaean, 1416-1280 calBCE

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature23310.html
doi:10.1038/nature23310

I9033:
mtDNA: H

I9006, Mycenaean, 1411-1262 cal BCE

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature23310.html
doi:10.1038/nature23310

I9006:
mtDNA: X2d


I9010, I9041, Mycenaean, 1700-1200 BCE

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature23310.html
doi:10.1038/nature23310

I9010:
mtDNA: X2

I9041:
mtDNA: X2

[Token]

Indeed Crete_Armenoi is closer to mainland Greeks, along with it being later close to the Dorian invasion. That has led many to assume that the Dorians were more steppe-heavy and most steppe in Greeks is from them, but since it's only one sample and nothing in particular demonstrates she was part of the Dorian invasion, I believe we can't make conclusions.

Do you know approximately when the paper is out? We know the genetic diversity of every NW European village, which isn't big to begin with, and Greece which I believe alone is more diverse than that huge area is severely understudied. As a Greek that's very disappointing since we don't have many samples to draw conclusions.

That is mostly because genetic research is still very northwestern European-centric. Northwestern Europeans are more interested in Vikings, Anglo-Saxons and the IE urheimat than in one of the most important civilizations that ever existed. That is good for me, of course, but i'm also a huge fan of classical literature.

The papers were all delayed due to the Coronavirus. I'm not sure when it will be released but probably this year or the next.

[Rabbit Hole]

Sub

You can just sub dear you don't have to say it.

[Rabbit Hole]

Sub

You can just sub dear you don't have to say it.

[Renekton]

You can just sub dear you don't have to say it.
You can just sub dear you don't have to say it.
Σκασε

[Tauromachos]

Σκασε

Γομενα σου ειναι?:D

[Token]

Yes so why would you think I have a problem with that you used the words commoner.

You told me to leave because of that. You are clearly bothered by the fact there is more Steppe in a elite sample than in commoners.

[Renekton]

Γομενα σου ειναι?:DΌχι :D Δεν ξέρουμε καλά καλά την εθνικότητα της. Αποφεύγει να απαντήσει.

[Konstantinos]

Dorian might have been more Steppe shifted than Mycanaean but what i personally don't believe is what many people here seem to do
that they equate Dorians as such with these Steppe people who started mixing with Mycanaeans during the Bronze Age

Dorians were not distinct from Mycenaeans so couldn't be significantly different. They were another Greek tribe that expander later in the whole of Greece.

[Tauromachos]

Dorians were not distinct from Mycenaeans so couldn't be significantly different.

Yes,probably not



They were another Greek tribe that expander later in the whole of Greece.

Agree

They maintened more archaic ways for longer and put less emphasis on luxury

[Rabbit Hole]

You told me to leave because of that. You are clearly bothered by the fact there is more Steppe in a elite sample than in commoners.

Why would I be bothered with that I don't like words like commoner or elite. Actually, I thought you were saying because the ancient Greeks had more Near Eastern than the mainland ones do now they were commoners which isn't the point at all.

I wish people would not just compare Mycenaean to Cretan samples they didn't just populate Crete. :D

[Tauromachos]

Why would I be bothered with that I don't like words like commoner or elite. Actually, I thought you were saying because the ancient Greeks had more Near Eastern than the mainland ones do now they were commoners which isn't the point at all.

I wish people would not just compare Mycenaean to Cretan samples they didn't just populate Crete. :D

Crete was predominantly Minoan(Eteocretan) during the Bronze Age

Later Mycanaeans from Mainland Greece came and then after Dorians

[Rabbit Hole]

http://scontent.flhr6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/10830540_1463796183861034_6268429962803092441_o.pn g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=DWISkmHli7kAX8GGRv4&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr6-1.fna&oh=c54f31960ae7cea898239239f53a8638&oe=5EBB16AE

[Token]

Why would I be bothered with that I don't like words like commoner or elite. Actually, I thought you were saying because the ancient Greeks had more Near Eastern than the mainland ones do now they were commoners which isn't the point at all.

I wish people would not just compare Mycenaean to Cretan samples they didn't just populate Crete. :D

Mycenaean samples from the mainland were much more southern (Near Eastern if you want to call it so) than present-day mainland Greeks. Why this is the case is still debatable, but there will be no doubt after dozens of Classical and Heroic age Greek samples come out soon.

[JohnnyP]

Crete was predominantly Minoan(Eteocretan) during the Bronze Age

Later Mycanaeans from Mainland Greeks came and after Dorians

Dorians are fiction same like "Greeks".

[Rabbit Hole]

Crete was predominantly Minoan(Eteocretan) during the Bronze Age

Later Mycanaeans from Mainland Greeks came and after Dorians

Yes that is true there is a lot of Mycenaean agriculture in Crete, but I agree the Minoan went to Crete before Mycenaean this is why I don't get the conversation about ''Cretan samples in Mycenaean''

[Tauromachos]

Dorians are fiction same like "Greeks".

Yes you are right the only thing which is real is you

[Voskos]

Of them [the peoples in the above passage] Staphylos says that the Dorians occupy the region towards the east, the Kydones the western part, the Eteocretans the southern, whose town is Prasos, where the temple of Diktaian Zeus is; and that the Eteocretans and Kydones are probably indigenous, but the others incomers,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocretan_language

Strabo, 1st century A.D. According to this categorization I'm mostly Kydones+Eteocretan.

[Renekton]

Dorians are fiction same like "Greeks".Same as "Macedonians"

[Tauromachos]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocretan_language

Strabo, 1st century A.D. According to this categorization I'm mostly Kydones+Eteocretan.

Hahaha the Dorians are the Dolicho Cephalic swarthy Gracile Med looking East Cretans

[Rabbit Hole]

Mycenaean samples from the mainland were much more southern (Near Eastern if you want to call it so) than present-day mainland Greeks. Why this is the case is still debatable, but there will be no doubt after dozens of Classical and Heroic age Greek samples come out soon.

No it's not debatable it was reflective of my autosomal and haplogroup result. I have a few theories, apart from the Mediterrenean coming from the Fertile Cresent Levant/Cyprus



The theories are ''The Indo European Slavic'' invasion watered down their genetics

Simple migrational routes and evolution after time created more admixture from North West Europe to make their genetics more comparable with mainland South Europe etc, etc

and others. I don't think it's anything to do with the Phoenician admixture either that's a theory but the Phoenicians went as far as the UK besides the ancient Greeks didn't really co exist with them that was more colonization they must of had a Near Eastern admixture more for other reasons.

[Voskos]

Hahaha the Dorians are the Dolicho Cephalic swarthy Gracile Med looking East Cretans

Swarthy but good-looking. She's East Cretan:

https://www.makeleio.gr/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/elenipetroulaki_28428062_279773132556487_460169215 3515606016_n.jpg

[Kaspias]

Agree but he said its clear that Mycanaean royals were Steppe

Why is it clear?

Its a possibility to be discussed or considered but its far from being clear i wouldn't even necessarily say that its
very likely to be true

Because it is clear to me, what is the problem of you guys?

[Konstantinos]

Dorians are fiction same like "Greeks".

Fiction right. That's why people from Macedonia-Epirus to Corinth to Sparti to Crete to Rhodes to Halicarnassus spoke Doric Greek while being separated by Ionians and Aeolians.

[Rabbit Hole]

Swarthy but good-looking. She's East Cretan:

https://www.makeleio.gr/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/elenipetroulaki_28428062_279773132556487_460169215 3515606016_n.jpg

Her tan is probably fake ask a woman we know these things.

[Tauromachos]

Swarthy but good-looking. She's East Cretan:

https://www.makeleio.gr/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/elenipetroulaki_28428062_279773132556487_460169215 3515606016_n.jpg


Scandinavian looking!

[Kaspias]

That they brought R1b is almost certain, was it dominant though? Not sure. Remember the additional "eastern" ancestry could also be modelled via Armenia so it's still very open.

I checked the sample, that Areni_C sample indeed includes some Steppe, but it is certain that there are two different admixture. Now I don't think R1b was dominant, and this migration could be boosted J also.

Also I realized they modeled better when I use Anatolia_MLBA together with Steppe_MLBA. See:

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.3001% / 0.02300119
63.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
21.6 Anatolia_MLBA
15.4 Steppe_MLBA

What would you say the possibility of a migration beginning from Anatolia to the Balkans via North of the Blacksea?

I can zoom on that additional admixtures btw, if it helps.

Edit: This is the model used in the article:

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.5080% / 0.02508002
75.2 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
13.4 Steppe_MLBA
11.4 ARM_Areni_C

[Tauromachos]

Because it is clear to me, what is the problem of you guys?

Exactly this is the Problem!

[Kaspias]

Exactyl this is the Problem!

I believe I have right to think whatever I want, don't I?

[Tauromachos]

I believe I have right to think whatever I want, don't I?

Sure

[Konstantinos]

I checked the sample, that Areni_C sample indeed includes some Steppe, but it is certain that there are two different admixture. Now I don't think R1b was dominant, and this migration could be boosted J also.

Also I realized they modeled better when I use Anatolia_MLBA together with Steppe_MLBA. See:

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.3001% / 0.02300119
63.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
21.6 Anatolia_MLBA
15.4 Steppe_MLBA

What would you say the possibility of a migration beginning from Anatolia to the Balkans via North of the Blacksea?

I can zoom on that additional admixtures btw, if it helps.

Edit: This is the model used in the article:

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.5080% / 0.02508002
75.2 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
13.4 Steppe_MLBA
11.4 ARM_Areni_C

Thanks for the models! When I look at Mycenaeans I think they have more CHG than Minoans accounting also for the steppe part. Maybe there were two different migrations at the same time from Anatolia and the steppe via Balkans? If so, I can't imagine a scenario where both were tribes of Proto-Greeks. Then whatever language the non-Greek migration talked was never accounted in Greece. Does this scenario have even 1% chance?

We need more samples from the relevant places and periods to see light in the tunnel. Archaeology doesn't agree with linguists so maybe here genetics can help the situation. We will know more only when we have genotyped all the possible routes.

[Dimitri159]

Even Cretans and people from Kos have more steppe than the Mycenean or the Greek Empureis one average, not by much but still. Only Pontic, Cappadocian and Cypriot Greeks seem to have less Steppe so far, but they themselves were mixed from the start as far as we can theorize.

I’d assume because of the Dorian invasion of the island.

[Rabbit Hole]

I’d assume because of the Dorian invasion of the island.

Yes people from Crete are Ionian and Dorian mixed.

[itilvolga]

Her tan is probably fake ask a woman we know these things.

No, her tan is mostly likely not fake. Her hair is balayaged though, which makes her look lighter.

[Rabbit Hole]

No, her tan is mostly likely not fake. Her hair is balayaged though, which makes her look lighter.

It is all that I can see is that it's air brushed or painted on. I know how natural tans look like just look at male models rather than female ones who tan their skin and put low and high lights in their hair.

[itilvolga]

It is all that I can see is that it's air brushed or painted on. I know how natural tans look like just look at male models rather than female ones who tan their skin and put low and high lights in their hair.

The photo may be edited but still her tan doesn’t look fake. It’s all about the skin undertone, there is no only one natural tan type. Her hair roots and eyebrows show me she is able to tan in this color easily.

[JohnnyP]

MacedoSquipto-Pontic aka hahns ,do not bother me.
Bye.

[Rabbit Hole]

MacedoSquipto-Pontic aka hahns ,do not bother me.
Bye.

?

[Rabbit Hole]

The photo may be edited but still her tan doesn’t look fake. It’s all about the skin undertone, there is no only one natural tan type. Her hair roots and eyebrows show me she is able to tan in this color easily.

It seems a bit orangy rather than tan ( light olive )

[Voskos]

The dodecanesieans were also colonized by Dorians, we shouldn't forget.

[itilvolga]

It seems a bit orangy rather than tan ( light olive )

No.

[Maintenance]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Abdullah_Sencer_Goezuebenli/post/Dont_you_think_that_it_is_time_for_stop_stealing_G reek_Heritage_dear_people_of_Vardarska_Banovina2/attachment/5bc487cbcfe4a76455fad033/AS%3A681973139918859%401539606475538/download/FB_IMG_1539606418771.jpg

[Tauromachos]

The dodecanesieans were also colonized by Dorians, we shouldn't forget.

Yes but no Slavs

There is zero Slavic in Dodecanese

[Rabbit Hole]

No.

I doubt it really matters in the grand scheme of things or when talking about ancient Greek samples. A lot of Turkish women probably have tans like that too and bleach their hair.

[Rabbit Hole]

No.

I doubt it really matters in the grand scheme of things or when talking about ancient Greek samples. A lot of Turkish women probably have tans like that too and bleach their hair.

[itilvolga]

I doubt it really matters in the grand scheme of things or when talking about ancient Greek samples. A lot of Turkish women probably have tans like that too and bleach their hair.

I doubt it really matters mentioning how Turkish women tan and bleach their hair while talking about ancient Greek samples.

[Rabbit Hole]

I doubt it really matters mentioning how Turkish women tan and bleach their hair while talking about ancient Greek samples.

Then why mention it? The thread is entitled ''The Greeks really do have Near Mystical origins'' not ''the skintone of modern Greeks''

[itilvolga]

Then why mention it? The thread is entitled ''The Greeks really do have Near Mystical origins'' not ''the skintone of modern Greeks''

It was already posted by another user and you replied? You claimed a women would notice a fake tan better so I commented on it since you had no clue about it “as a woman”.

[Rabbit Hole]

It was already posted by another user and you replied? You claimed a women would notice a fake tan better so I commented on it since you had no clue about it “as a woman”.

''It looks fake''. I don't care if they want to post Greek models, I care about Turks coming here and making goofy comments. Even if her tan was natural who cares?

[Token]

No it's not debatable it was reflective of my autosomal and haplogroup result. I have a few theories, apart from the Mediterrenean coming from the Fertile Cresent Levant/Cyprus



The theories are ''The Indo European Slavic'' invasion watered down their genetics

Simple migrational routes and evolution after time created more admixture from North West Europe to make their genetics more comparable with mainland South Europe etc, etc

and others. I don't think it's anything to do with the Phoenician admixture either that's a theory but the Phoenicians went as far as the UK besides the ancient Greeks didn't really co exist with them that was more colonization they must of had a Near Eastern admixture more for other reasons.

Dumb and uneducated comment. Firstly, the northern admixture of mainland Greeks is of the Northeastern European kind (i can show you very easily with some stats, but you will not understand them anyway). Secondly, people don't just 'evolute' and 'create more' Northern European admixture, they get it by mixing with migrants from farther north.

[itilvolga]

''It looks fake''. I don't care if they want to post Greek models, I care about Turks coming here and making goofy comments. Even if her tan was natural who cares?

Not as fake as your account, shit hol-opps sorry, rabbit hole.

[Rabbit Hole]

Not as fake as your account, shit hol-opps sorry, rabbit hole.

How am I fake? Least I don't take it up the poop hole like you. The only thing you have contributed to this thread is some Greek model has a natural tan.( which doesn't even look natural ) Either contribute with facts or leave.

[Dimitri159]

Yes people from Crete are Ionian and Dorian mixed.

Right. The Steppe input in Minoan influenced Crete was absent until Mycenaeans and then later the Dorians adding that input. The Dorians probably would have had more Steppe input than both the Mycenaeans and Minoans overall.

[Tauromachos]

Yes people from Crete are Ionian and Dorian mixed.

Nope, Minoan,Mycanaean and Dorian

[itilvolga]

Someone ban this troll

[Kaspias]

Thanks for the models! When I look at Mycenaeans I think they have more CHG than Minoans accounting also for the steppe part. Maybe there were two different migrations at the same time from Anatolia and the steppe via Balkans? If so, I can't imagine a scenario where both were tribes of Proto-Greeks. Then whatever language the non-Greek migration talked was never accounted in Greece. Does this scenario have even 1% chance?

We need more samples from the relevant places and periods to see light in the tunnel. Archaeology doesn't agree with linguists so maybe here genetics can help the situation. We will know more only when we have genotyped all the possible routes.

This is the additional admixture of Mycenaeans based on Areni_C and Steppe_MLBA modeling:

Spreadsheet:


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C,0.0896355,0.13 27805,-0.0780642,-0.0667802,-0.0437002,-0.0196618,0.0098702,-0.0065768,-0.035178,-0.0030977,0.0051965,-0.0013113,-0.0006317,-0.0019613,-0.0046145,0.0036128,0.00088,0.0022802,0.0032995,-0.0063468,0.0045232,-0.0033388,-0.00835,-0.0118992,0.0006588
ARM_Areni_C:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
Levant_Canaanite_MBA:Levant_Canaanite_MBA,0.081269 6,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
Anatolia_MLBAAnatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Potapovka_MLBA,0.1263435,0.091398, 0.0507225,0.0985155,-0.0101555,0.038487,0.003995,-0.0056535,-0.0275085,-0.0474725,0.005846,-0.002173,0.001784,-0.0245655,0.0287725,0.008618,-0.000652,-0.004054,-0.0040225,0.0083165,-0.010419,0.0004945,0.01214,0.0137365,0.0037125
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Sintashta_MLBA,0.125389,0.1158031, 0.0572615,0.0789266,0.011327,0.0284468,0.005678,0. 0041909,-0.0174834,-0.0282348,-0.0024254,0.0012473,-0.0030739,-0.0212915,0.0226566,0.0124762,-0.0050555,0.0004086,-6.9e-05,-0.0007423,-0.0059089,0.0020542,0.0026159,0.0066506,-0.0039363
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA,0.1283672,0.1 055022,0.0565263,0.0834058,0.0063259,0.0330021,0.0 055096,0.0044358,-0.0177708,-0.0348072,-0.0021293,-0.0015654,-0.0023124,-0.0199401,0.0242338,0.0099441,-0.0082141,0.000549,0,0.0013479,-0.001234,0.0026103,0.0037386,0.004686,0.0004791
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA,0.1253088,0.1154011, 0.0560538,0.0815135,0.0066585,0.0328839,0.0043155, 0.0043634,-0.0192996,-0.0311127,-0.0006937,0.0016894,-0.0027975,-0.0171778,0.0241334,0.0078348,-0.012754,0.0006564,0.0005026,0.0001024,-0.0025976,0.0047325,-0.0003584,0.0068355,-0.0005334
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA,0.124143,0.100063 5,0.0580011,0.0812237,0.0048213,0.0293951,0.004136 1,0.0035383,-0.0150392,-0.0324138,0.0002165,-0.0015887,-0.0027651,-0.0222858,0.0204665,0.0081764,-0.0050243,-0.0007685,0.0005531,-0.0007672,-0.008302,0.0041877,0.0023745,0.0082019,-0.0028499
Steppe_MLBA:UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA,0.119514,0.12491,0.0 54682,0.077843,0.015387,0.027052,-0.00141,-0.009,-0.014521,-0.022415,-0.017538,0.004796,-0.001784,-0.007019,0.020358,0.013657,-0.002868,0.003294,-0.005405,-0.00963,-0.005366,-0.002349,0.022678,0.013134,-0.011496
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA,0.124143,0.100063 5,0.0580011,0.0812237,0.0048213,0.0293951,0.004136 1,0.0035383,-0.0150392,-0.0324138,0.0002165,-0.0015887,-0.0027651,-0.0222858,0.0204665,0.0081764,-0.0050243,-0.0007685,0.0005531,-0.0007672,-0.008302,0.0041877,0.0023745,0.0082019,-0.0028499


Target: X
Distance: 9.4671% / 0.09467058
63.6 Steppe_MLBA
36.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA

Coordinates:


X,0.073159181,0.113280371,0.022424413,0.024201355,-0.002099748,0.011397787,0.001858194,0.001889003,-0.009525394,0.009511006,0.013202316,0.021843819,0. 024629426,-0.002331816,0.04750269,-0.006355026,0.032034932,0.018323923,0.022763716,0. 025324448,0.01691231,-0.024672045,-0.0111901,0.007831535,0.004510023



You can play with coordinates. According to what I have seen I can recommend a theory of migration both from North and from Anatolia.

[Dimitri159]

Someone ban this troll

Lol everyone on TA is a troll.

[Konstantinos]

Right. The Steppe input in Minoan influenced Crete was absent until Mycenaeans and then later the Dorians adding that input. The Dorians probably would have had more Steppe input than both the Mycenaeans and Minoans overall.

Minoans didn't have any so it's just Mycenaeans and Dorians who need to fill that gap. Not much room for anything else.

[Konstantinos]

This is the additional admixture of Mycenaeans based on Areni_C and Steppe_MLBA modeling:

Spreadsheet:


IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C,0.0896355,0.13 27805,-0.0780642,-0.0667802,-0.0437002,-0.0196618,0.0098702,-0.0065768,-0.035178,-0.0030977,0.0051965,-0.0013113,-0.0006317,-0.0019613,-0.0046145,0.0036128,0.00088,0.0022802,0.0032995,-0.0063468,0.0045232,-0.0033388,-0.00835,-0.0118992,0.0006588
ARM_Areni_C:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
Levant_Canaanite_MBA:Levant_Canaanite_MBA,0.081269 6,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
Anatolia_MLBAAnatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Potapovka_MLBA,0.1263435,0.091398, 0.0507225,0.0985155,-0.0101555,0.038487,0.003995,-0.0056535,-0.0275085,-0.0474725,0.005846,-0.002173,0.001784,-0.0245655,0.0287725,0.008618,-0.000652,-0.004054,-0.0040225,0.0083165,-0.010419,0.0004945,0.01214,0.0137365,0.0037125
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Sintashta_MLBA,0.125389,0.1158031, 0.0572615,0.0789266,0.011327,0.0284468,0.005678,0. 0041909,-0.0174834,-0.0282348,-0.0024254,0.0012473,-0.0030739,-0.0212915,0.0226566,0.0124762,-0.0050555,0.0004086,-6.9e-05,-0.0007423,-0.0059089,0.0020542,0.0026159,0.0066506,-0.0039363
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA,0.1283672,0.1 055022,0.0565263,0.0834058,0.0063259,0.0330021,0.0 055096,0.0044358,-0.0177708,-0.0348072,-0.0021293,-0.0015654,-0.0023124,-0.0199401,0.0242338,0.0099441,-0.0082141,0.000549,0,0.0013479,-0.001234,0.0026103,0.0037386,0.004686,0.0004791
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA,0.1253088,0.1154011, 0.0560538,0.0815135,0.0066585,0.0328839,0.0043155, 0.0043634,-0.0192996,-0.0311127,-0.0006937,0.0016894,-0.0027975,-0.0171778,0.0241334,0.0078348,-0.012754,0.0006564,0.0005026,0.0001024,-0.0025976,0.0047325,-0.0003584,0.0068355,-0.0005334
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA,0.124143,0.100063 5,0.0580011,0.0812237,0.0048213,0.0293951,0.004136 1,0.0035383,-0.0150392,-0.0324138,0.0002165,-0.0015887,-0.0027651,-0.0222858,0.0204665,0.0081764,-0.0050243,-0.0007685,0.0005531,-0.0007672,-0.008302,0.0041877,0.0023745,0.0082019,-0.0028499
Steppe_MLBA:UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA,0.119514,0.12491,0.0 54682,0.077843,0.015387,0.027052,-0.00141,-0.009,-0.014521,-0.022415,-0.017538,0.004796,-0.001784,-0.007019,0.020358,0.013657,-0.002868,0.003294,-0.005405,-0.00963,-0.005366,-0.002349,0.022678,0.013134,-0.011496
Steppe_MLBA:RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA,0.124143,0.100063 5,0.0580011,0.0812237,0.0048213,0.0293951,0.004136 1,0.0035383,-0.0150392,-0.0324138,0.0002165,-0.0015887,-0.0027651,-0.0222858,0.0204665,0.0081764,-0.0050243,-0.0007685,0.0005531,-0.0007672,-0.008302,0.0041877,0.0023745,0.0082019,-0.0028499


Target: X
Distance: 9.4671% / 0.09467058
63.6 Steppe_MLBA
36.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA

Coordinates:


X,0.073159181,0.113280371,0.022424413,0.024201355,-0.002099748,0.011397787,0.001858194,0.001889003,-0.009525394,0.009511006,0.013202316,0.021843819,0. 024629426,-0.002331816,0.04750269,-0.006355026,0.032034932,0.018323923,0.022763716,0. 025324448,0.01691231,-0.024672045,-0.0111901,0.007831535,0.004510023



You can play with coordinates. According to what I have seen I can recommend a theory of migration both from North and from Anatolia.

Thanks for the help. I don't have G25 as I don't even have tested myself. Just trying to figure things out from what is available.

[Dimitri159]

Minoans didn't have any so it's just Mycenaeans and Dorians who need to fill that gap. Not much room for anything else.

Right, that’s what I said. But even Mycenaeans didn’t change a whole lot as Minoans and Mycenaeans were closely related. It was the Dorians that had a bigger impact in change.

[Dimitri159]

Minoans didn't have any so it's just Mycenaeans and Dorians who need to fill that gap. Not much room for anything else.

Right, that’s what I said. But even Mycenaeans didn’t change a whole lot as Minoans and Mycenaeans were closely related. It was the Dorians that had a bigger impact in change.

[Konstantinos]

Right, that’s what I said. But even Mycenaeans didn’t change a whole lot as Minoans and Mycenaeans were closely related. It was the Dorians that had a bigger impact in change.

Both were probably very similar in terms of steppe DNA so depends which group colonised with bigger numbers.

[Dimitri159]

Both were probably very similar in terms of steppe DNA so depends which group colonised with bigger numbers.

Both as in Mycenaeans and Minoans or Mycenaeans and Dorians??

[Konstantinos]

Both as in Mycenaeans and Minoans or Mycenaeans and Dorians??

Mycenaeans-Dorians.

[Tauromachos]

Right, that’s what I said. But even Mycenaeans didn’t change a whole lot as Minoans and Mycenaeans were closely related. It was the Dorians that had a bigger impact in change.

So you think the Dorians differed more from Mycanaeans than Mycanaeans from Minoans?

I'd say it migh have rather been the same difference with regard to additional Steppe ancestry Mycanaeans had from Minoans

[Dimitri159]

So you think the Dorians differed more from Mycanaeans then Mycanaeans from Minoans?

I'd say it migh have rather been the same difference with regard to additional Steppe ancestry Mycanaeans had from Minoans

Well yeah because the Mycenaeans and Minoans were very close genetically and studies have proved this. The only different was the 4-16% Steppe input.

I really don’t get the whole big idea behind the Steppe input among Greeks on this forum, it’s a very small percent then and even today.

[Dimitri159]

Mycenaeans-Dorians.

Mycenaeans and Minoans were very close genetically and studies have proved this. The only different was the 4-16% Steppe input.

I really don’t get the whole big idea behind the Steppe input among Greeks on this forum, it’s a very small percent then and even today.

[Tauromachos]

Well yeah because the Mycenaeans and Minoans were very close genetically and studies have proved this. The only different was the 4-16% Steppe input.

I really don’t get the whole big idea behind the Steppe input among Greeks on this forum, it’s a very small percent then and even today.

Well yeah this means by broad peasant reasoning that Dorians could at best have had 4-16% more Steppe than Mycanaeans

[Dimitri159]

Well yeah this means by broad peasant reasoning that Dorians could at best have had 4-16% more Steppe than Mycanaeans

If that’s then case then how are they more related to each other?

[Dimitri159]

Well yeah this means by broad peasant reasoning that Dorians could at best have had 4-16% more Steppe than Mycanaeans

How much Steppe input does modern Greece have? If not fully known how much would you assume?

[Tauromachos]

How much Steppe input does modern Greece have? If not fully known how much would you assume?

What would you say?

I'd say about 25% maybe


If that’s then case then how are they more related to each other?

Who is more related to one another?

I don't understand your question here

[Dimitri159]

What would you say?




Who is more related to one another?

I don't understand your question here


I would say that the Steppe input hasn’t changed by a large amount for the majority of Greece, because according to what I read, modern Greeks closely descend and are closest to the Mycenaeans and Minoans as well as Dorians. Probably no more than 20%

[Konstantinos]

Mycenaeans and Minoans were very close genetically and studies have proved this. The only different was the 4-16% Steppe input.

I really don’t get the whole big idea behind the Steppe input among Greeks on this forum, it’s a very small percent then and even today.

I said Myvenaeans will be closer to Dorians than Minoans, even closer albeit Dorians on the more "European" side.

[Jana]

I would say that the Steppe input hasn’t changed by a large amount for the majority of Greece, because according to what I read, modern Greeks closely descend and are closest to the Mycenaeans and Minoans as well as Dorians. Probably no more than 20%

Modern mainland Greeks have more steppe input than ancients due to Slavic invasions. They derive around 70% of their ancestry from Myceneans, Islanders are closer to ancients but with some extra east med input.

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.1269% / 0.02126946

41.4 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
34.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
14.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.4 RUS_Maykop
0.8 WHG

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.1352% / 0.02135155

32.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
26.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
23.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.6 RUS_Maykop
0.2 WHG

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.4822% / 0.02482175

42.4 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
31.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
15.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.6 RUS_Maykop
1.6 WHG

[Jana]

And this is how Myceneans score:

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.0692% / 0.02069180

49.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
23.4 RUS_Maykop
16.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
10.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4

[Konstantinos]

Modern mainland Greeks have more steppe input than ancients due to Slavic invasions. They derive around 70% of their ancestry from Myceneans, Islanders are closer to ancients but with some extra east med input.

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.1269% / 0.02126946

41.4 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
34.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
14.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.4 RUS_Maykop
0.8 WHG

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.1352% / 0.02135155

32.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
26.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
23.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.6 RUS_Maykop
0.2 WHG

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.4822% / 0.02482175

42.4 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
31.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
15.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.6 RUS_Maykop
1.6 WHG

Careful there. To attribute all the extra steppe to Slavs is a massive leap. We have an extra dose of steppe from the Dorians, the Thracians, Vlachs if they indeed descended from north and Slavs.

In the other thread I made about West Asia Minor Greeks, you can read that from our knowledge they are between mainlanders and islanders, not eastern of them as they should be. I suppose this isn't from the Slavs, right?

[Tauromachos]

Modern mainland Greeks have more steppe input than ancients due to Slavic invasions. They derive around 70% of their ancestry from Myceneans, Islanders are closer to ancients but with some extra east med input.


Yeah but considering that a part of the additional Steppe in modern Mainland Greeks is from medieval Slavs the argument that ancient Dorians couldn't have had much more Steppe than Mycanaeans is even more valid

[Jana]

Careful there. To attribute all the extra steppe to Slavs is a massive leap. We have an extra dose of steppe from the Dorians, the Thracians, Vlachs if they indeed descended from north and Slavs.

In the other thread I made about West Asia Minor Greeks, you can read that from our knowledge they are between mainlanders and islanders, not eastern of them as they should be. I suppose this isn't from the Slavs, right?

Vlachs are heavily Slavic admixed, even Albanians have decent amount of Slavic and they are closest to ancient Balkan people.
Depends if there were migrations to Asia minor after dark ages or not.

Yeah, Dorian samples are needed but I doubt they were very northern shifted. We'll see hopefully.
Btw, classical Thracian sample from Bulgaria was clear southern European.

[Jana]

Yeah but considering that a part of the additional Steppe in modern Mainland Greeks is from medieval Slavs the argument that ancient Dorians couldn't have had much more Steppe than Mycanaeans is even more valid

Well, I agree. Maybe they had more steppe, but I doubt they were radically different from Myceneans. Just a guess.

[Tauromachos]

Well, I agree. Maybe they had more steppe, but I doubt they were radically different from Myceneans. Just a guess.

This is what i was going to imply

[catgeorge]

Modern mainland Greeks have more steppe input than ancients due to Slavic invasions. They derive around 70% of their ancestry from Myceneans, Islanders are closer to ancients but with some extra east med input.

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.1269% / 0.02126946

41.4 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
34.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
14.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.4 RUS_Maykop
0.8 WHG

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.1352% / 0.02135155

32.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
26.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
23.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.6 RUS_Maykop
0.2 WHG

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.4822% / 0.02482175

42.4 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
31.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
15.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.6 RUS_Maykop
1.6 WHG

Overplayed like you normally do - steppe input was already in Greece and south Slavs arent modelled as pure Slavs to begin with. You guys score no where near close to Poland and West Ukraine for example.

[Jana]

Overplayed like you normally do - steppe input was already in Greece and south Slavs arent modelled as pure Slavs to begin with. You guys score no where near close to Poland and West Ukraine for example.

No it wasn't, as Myceneans score several times less steppe than modern mainland Greeks do. South Slavs have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

[catgeorge]

No it wasn't, as Myceneans score several times less than mainland Greeks do. South Slavs have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

You bought them into the discussion - now that you have, you either contribute appropriately or on your way.

[Jana]

You bought them into the discussion - now that you have, you either contribute appropriately or on your way.

No I didn't mention any South Slavs.

[Samnium]

Careful there. To attribute all the extra steppe to Slavs is a massive leap. We have an extra dose of steppe from the Dorians, the Thracians, Vlachs if they indeed descended from north and Slavs.

In the other thread I made about West Asia Minor Greeks, you can read that from our knowledge they are between mainlanders and islanders, not eastern of them as they should be. I suppose this isn't from the Slavs, right?

I think most of the extra Steppe come from Thracians, Vlachs rather than medieval Slavs as well.

[Jana]

I think most of the extra Steppe come from Thracians, Dorians, Vlachs rather than medieval Slavs.

I doesn't since Thracians had lower steppe than modern north Greeks and Vlachs are mixed with Slavs themself.

Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.2433% / 0.02243330

49.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
12.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
11.4 RUS_Maykop

Scores almost double less than Greeks from Thessaly and Macedonia.

[Konstantinos]

I think most of the extra Steppe come from Thracians, Vlachs rather than medieval Slavs as well.

I don't have a definite opinion but let's see. For the record Slavs have left almost nothing culturally in Greece apart from some loud neighbours, everything has to be taken into context when interpreting genetics.

[Samnium]

I doesn't since Thracians had lower steppe than modern north Greeks and Vlachs are mixed with Slavs themself.

Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.2433% / 0.02243330

49.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
12.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_Nthem
11.4 RUS_Maykop

Scores almost double less than Greeks from Thessaly and Macedonia.

Vlachs are indeed mixed with Slavs, but I think more plausible them to be the source of most of the extra Steppe (then "direct" Slavs people had surely an impact).

I don't know also if this sample is really representative of ancient Thracians however.

[Samnium]

I don't have a definite opinion but let's see. For the record Slavs have left almost nothing culturally in Greece apart from some loud neighbours, everything has to be taken into context when interpreting genetics.

They had surely some impact but definitely overstated. If they brought some Steppe to Greek people, it has to be somewhere in the 1-5% range, so pretty low. (I'm talking about direct Slavs, not indirect Slavic ancestry from other groups)

[Konstantinos]

I doesn't since Thracians had lower steppe than modern north Greeks and Vlachs are mixed with Slavs themself.

Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.2433% / 0.02243330

49.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
12.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
11.4 RUS_Maykop

Scores almost double less than Greeks from Thessaly and Macedonia.

Again how do you explain Asia Minor? Also what do Cretans score for islanders?

[Faklon]

OP are you really a Welsh birdie? Kratos asking.

Yamnaya is true Steppe you freaking anthrotars, not Ukrainian Borreby.

Slavs mainly brought HG influence in this relative scheme.

In a Crete-Epirus-Minoan scheme, Epirus is HG shifted. Steppe influence is almost equal with Crete.

[Jana]

Vlachs are indeed mixed with Slavs, but I think more plausible them to be the source of most of the extra Steppe (then "direct" Slavs people had surely an impact).

I don't know also if this sample is really representative of ancient Thracians however;

It should be, since in Iron Age central Bulgaria no other people lived, and it works well when modeling Balkanites pre-Slavic ancestry.
There is Getae sample from Moldova (northern Thracians), and it's more northern shifted so probably Thracians had a cline too.

Target: Scythian_MDA
Distance: 2.8548% / 0.02854787

42.6 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
36.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.2 RUS_Maykop
2.0 WHG

Amount of Slavic subclades of I2-din and R1a in Greece is pretty similar to Slavic autosomal input.

[catgeorge]

I doesn't since Thracians had lower steppe than modern north Greeks and Vlachs are mixed with Slavs themself.

Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.2433% / 0.02243330

49.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
12.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
11.4 RUS_Maykop

Scores almost double less than Greeks from Thessaly and Macedonia.

Modelled fantasies to upkeep an agenda.

Results from my cousin.

23andme
- 85,8 Balkan
- 12,9 Italian
- 1,2 broadly Southern European

LivingDNA

Europe 100%
Europe (South) 44.1%
Aegean 44.1%
Tuscany-related ancestry 36%
Northeast Europe-related ancestry 7.5%
North Italy-related ancestry 6%
Europe (unassigned) 6.3%

[Jana]

Modelled fantasies to upkeep an agenda.

Results from my cousin.

23andme
- 85,8 Balkan
- 12,9 Italian
- 1,2 broadly Southern European

LivingDNA

Europe 100%
Europe (South) 44.1%
Aegean 44.1%
Tuscany-related ancestry 36%
Northeast Europe-related ancestry 7.5%
North Italy-related ancestry 6%
Europe (unassigned) 6.3%

Balkan on 23andme includes modern South Slavs, genius xD

[Samnium]

It should be, since in Iron Age central Bulgaria no other people lived, and it works well when modeling Balkanites pre-Slavic ancestry.
There is Getae sample from Moldova (northern Thracians), and it's more northern shifted so probably Thracians had a cline too.

Target: Scythian_MDA
Distance: 2.8548% / 0.02854787

42.6 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
36.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.2 RUS_Maykop
2.0 WHG

Amount of Slavic subclades of I2-din and R1a in Greece is pretty similar to Slavic autosomal input.

Yeah I wanted to say initally that Thracians could have been very different genetically (between different Thracians), with variations.

[Jana]

Again how do you explain Asia Minor? Also what do Cretans score for islanders?

Not familar with it's history, but they should be close to ancients.

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 2.0921% / 0.02092119

51.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
28.6 RUS_Maykop
20.2 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4

[catgeorge]

Balkan on 23andme includes modern South Slavs, genius xD

Yes it does - they have paleobalkanic mix with Greek haplogroups...Greek Thessalian DNA was in Balkan 7000 years before the Slavonic language arrived to the area,

[Jana]

OP are you really a Welsh birdie? Kratos asking.

Yamnaya is true Steppe you freaking anthrotars, not Ukrainian Borreby.

Slavs mainly brought HG influence in this relative scheme.

In a Crete-Epirus-Minoan scheme, Epirus is HG shifted. Steppe influence is almost equal with Crete.

With Yamnaya instead of Sredny Stog and Maykop nothing changes, mainland Greeks still score much more of it than Myceneans.

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.5477% / 0.02547680

57.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
25.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.9286% / 0.01928641

46.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
32.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.3892% / 0.02389224

36.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
27.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.4 WHG

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.0199% / 0.02019933

38.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
1.6 WHG

[Marmara]

Near Eastern* origins.

[Tauromachos]

Yes it does - they have paleobalkanic mix with Greek haplogroups...Greek Thessalian DNA was in Balkan 7000 years before the Slavonic language arrived to the area,

It might have been brought by Armenian Gangs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufq4ANdccPU

[Faklon]

Sredny_Stog is not Steppe you dog, go with Yamnaya and Minoans ffs.

It doesn't make sense archaelogically, it's not a Kurgan culture.

[FinalFlash]

Not familar with it's history, but they should be close to ancients.

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 2.0921% / 0.02092119

51.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
28.6 RUS_Maykop
20.2 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4

Cretans have nowhere near that much Steppe admixture. You need to incorporate other components in your runs like Ganj_Dareh N, and Levant_Natufian as well. Maybe even Maykop_Late or CHG.

[Faklon]

With Yamnaya instead of Sredny Stog and Maykop nothing changes, mainland Greeks still score much more of it than Myceneans.

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.5477% / 0.02547680

57.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
25.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.9286% / 0.01928641

46.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
32.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.3892% / 0.02389224

36.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
27.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.4 WHG

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.0199% / 0.02019933

38.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
1.6 WHG

Go with Crete and Minoans.

[Konstantinos]

Not familar with it's history, but they should be close to ancients.

Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 2.0921% / 0.02092119

51.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
28.6 RUS_Maykop
20.2 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4

It is, but not much more than mainlanders.

Can you explain RUS_Maykop? If I remember correctly he is partially steppe-admixed?

[Jana]

Cretans have nowhere near that much Steppe admixture. You need to incorporate other components in your runs like Ganj_Dareh N, and Levant_Natufian as well. Maybe even Maykop_Late or CHG.

Mykop Late is steppe mixed so no sense to include it, Maykop is CHG like already.
Levantine components make no sense for mainlanders.

Model is good and the fit is also.

[Faklon]

Near Eastern* origins.

Not gonna lie Kebabud, that was my first thought when I saw the title.

[FinalFlash]

Mykop Late is steppe mixed so no sense to include it, Maykop is CHG like already.
Levantine components make no sense for mainlanders.

Model is good and the fit is also.

Maykop_Late isn't steppe admixed. And I am talking about using those other components for Cretans, not mainlanders.

[catgeorge]

Anyway - majority of Steppe admixture is likely from Pontic Steppe + CHG. Referring to the ancient type.

[Token]

Try to model Greeks with Mycenaeans and Slavs and get good fits. You can't, because you need a lot of Asia minor admixture too.

[Tauromachos]

Anyway - majority of Steppe admixture is likely from Pontic Steppe + CHG. Referring to the ancient type.

From Armenians

[catgeorge]

From Armenians

Armenians didnt exist then either did Iranians, Greeks, Russians, Italians etc.

[Jana]

Try to model Greeks with Mycenaeans and Slavs and get good fits. You can't, because you need a lot of Asia minor admixture too.

Yeah, I noticed this. Tried to run model for Cretans with Minoans, Myceneans, Slavs and Thracians and fit is poor.
Tried with Israel Ashkelon IA included, but that ruins whole run, Cretans register more of it than Mycenean which isn't realistic.

[Dimitri159]

Modern mainland Greeks have more steppe input than ancients due to Slavic invasions. They derive around 70% of their ancestry from Myceneans, Islanders are closer to ancients but with some extra east med input.

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.1269% / 0.02126946

41.4 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
34.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
14.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.4 RUS_Maykop
0.8 WHG

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.1352% / 0.02135155

32.8 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
26.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
23.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.6 RUS_Maykop
0.2 WHG

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.4822% / 0.02482175

42.4 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
31.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
15.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.6 RUS_Maykop
1.6 WHG

Ahhh those damn Slavs! Anyways yeah still not a large input. The largest inputs as you can see are in the north.

[Jana]

Ahhh those damn Slavs! Anyways yeah still not a large input. The largest inputs as you can see are in the north.

Not all steppe is from Slavs ofcourse, but big part of it is (directly or indirectly - Vlachs and Arvanites carried some of it too)

[Dimitri159]

Overplayed like you normally do - steppe input was already in Greece and south Slavs arent modelled as pure Slavs to begin with. You guys score no where near close to Poland and West Ukraine for example.

But the presence of Slavs in Greek history shouldn’t be downplayed, they did indeed play quite an influence, in northern Greece at least. The Bulgarian Empire player a role, as well as the historic Slavic communities in northern Greece. Thrace has a huge ethnic overlap.

My Yiayia’s surname (she’s from Thessaloniki) had the pefix “Zlat” which is Bulgarian for gold I believe. And a friend of mine’s family comes from a town called Florina, right on the other side of the mountain is a smaller Slavic village in Greece.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Not all steppe is from Slavs ofcourse, but big part of it is (directly or indirectly - Vlachs and Arvanites carried some of it too)

these two populations were limited to specific places, Slavs on the other hand colonized nearly all of the country

[catgeorge]

But the presence of Slavs in Greek history shouldn’t be downplayed, they did indeed play quite an influence, in northern Greece at least. My Yiayia’s surname (she’s from Thessaloniki) had the pefix “Zlat” which is Bulgarians for gold I believe. And a friend of mine’s family comes from a town called Florina, right on the other side of the mountain is a smaller Slavic village in Greece.

It's not being underplayed we are already aware North Greeks score 5-7% East European in their results on average some more some less. But being constantly hammered over the head with infactual agenda driven nonsense. Many North Greeks score higher Swiss_Italian than Bulgarian on G25 for example.

[Token]

Yeah, I noticed this. Tried to run model for Cretans with Minoans, Myceneans, Slavs and Thracians and fit is poor.
Tried with Israel Ashkelon IA included, but that ruins whole run, Cretans register more of it than Mycenean which isn't realistic.
Plus, i'm pretty sure Slavs weren't straight outta Ukraine North Europeans when they entered Greece. They were more like South Slavs for sure. The reality is that the population replacement in Thessalonika, Peloponnese and surrounds was very significant, even though Greeks would rather die than accept that. People just move and mix a lot. Just look at Italians, they are barely 30% Italic at most nowadays.

[Dimitri159]

It's not being underplayed we are already aware North Greeks score 5-7% East European in their results on average some more some less. But being constantly hammered over the head with infactual agenda driven nonsense. Many North Greeks score higher Swiss_Italian than Bulgarian on G25 for example.

I agree overall, imo even northern Greeks are closer South/ Central Italians. Plus Northern Greek regions have the highest presence of Pontian Greeks who would on average score high amounts of West Asian.

[Tauromachos]

But the presence of Slavs in Greek history shouldn’t be downplayed, they did indeed play quite an influence, in northern Greece at least. The Bulgarian Empire player a role, as well as the historic Slavic communities in northern Greece. Thrace has a huge ethnic overlap.

My Yiayia’s surname (she’s from Thessaloniki) had the pefix “Zlat” which is Bulgarian for gold I believe. And a friend of mine’s family comes from a town called Florina, right on the other side of the mountain is a smaller Slavic village in Greece.


I'm dissapointed at the beginning you claimed your were South Italian looking Mainland Greek

[catgeorge]

Plus, i'm pretty sure Slavs weren't straight outta Ukraine North Europeans when they entered Greece. They were more like South Slavs for sure. The reality is that the population replacement in Thessalonika, Peloponnese and surrounds was very significant, even though Greeks would rather die than accept that. People just move and mix a lot. Just look at Italians, they are barely 30% Italic at most nowadays.

Just garbage after garbage.. eggspurts and all their glory. Do't give up your dayjob buddy.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ca35ddd7ab78bae97d166f79fad1f59a

[Token]

Just garbage after garbage.. eggspurts and all their glory. Do't give up your dayjob buddy.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ca35ddd7ab78bae97d166f79fad1f59a

What is this old ass PCA supposed to mean?

[catgeorge]

What is this old ass PCA supposed to mean?

Old or not - your strong statement of being significantly replaced but they won't like it is a genetic fallacy.

[Rabbit Hole]

OP are you really a Welsh birdie? Kratos asking.

Yamnaya is true Steppe you freaking anthrotars, not Ukrainian Borreby.

Slavs mainly brought HG influence in this relative scheme.

In a Crete-Epirus-Minoan scheme, Epirus is HG shifted. Steppe influence is almost equal with Crete.

English Welsh from my father's line Greco Anatolian through my mum's at least genetically.

[Aileron]

they originated from mythical steppes

[Rabbit Hole]

I said Myvenaeans will be closer to Dorians than Minoans, even closer albeit Dorians on the more "European" side.

Ha ha Mycenaeans and Mionians are virtually identical

[Token]

Old or not - your strong statement of being significantly replaced but they won't like it is a genetic fallacy.
I can bring in the models, but i'm afraid you may have a stroke.

[Dorian]

English Welsh from my father's line Greco Anatolian through my mum's at least genetically.

Greek Orthodox Antiochian ?

[catgeorge]

I can bring in the models, but i'm afraid you may have a stroke.

I am sure you are aware now - I pay no attention to agenda driven models.

I'll read professional scientific reports instead, thank you very much.

[Dimitri159]

I'm dissapointed at the beginning you claimed your were South Italian looking Mainland Greek

Yeah so? My Yiayia’s side has always been mistaken for South Italian or Jewish. I’m not saying they have Slavic ancestry, it’s just the overlap in that area influenced a lot such as genetics, names etc.

[Jana]

I can bring in the models, but i'm afraid you may have a stroke.

Don't bother, he thinks Balkan on 23andme equals Paleo-Balkan DNA xD
Most Serbs score 80-90% Balkan and 10-20% East European for example, because South Slavs except Slovenians are part of reference cluster.

But even if they were removed and only Albanians and Greeks kept, still some Slav blood in those :p

[Konstantinos]

Plus, i'm pretty sure Slavs weren't straight outta Ukraine North Europeans when they entered Greece. They were more like South Slavs for sure. The reality is that the population replacement in Thessalonika, Peloponnese and surrounds was very significant, even though Greeks would rather die than accept that. People just move and mix a lot. Just look at Italians, they are barely 30% Italic at most nowadays.

They most certainly out of Ukraine and Poland since they didn't wait and mix. The reality is that the only study on the subject shows that Peloponnesians have up to 14% common DNA with Slavs. Sure, the Maniots looked like Modric after the invasions but then decided to switch to a thousand-years old dialect.

[Tauromachos]

Yeah so? My Yiayia’s side has always been mistaken for South Italian or Jewish. I’m not saying they have Slavic ancestry, it’s just the overlap in that area influenced a lot such as genetics, names etc.

See amazing isn't it despite the Slavic influences in language still....

[Dimitri159]

Ha ha Mycenaeans and Mionians are virtually identical

Exactly what I have been stressing.

[Faklon]

English Welsh from my father's line Greco Anatolian through my mum's at least genetically.

Sounds like a true Galatian, got instagramix?

[catgeorge]

Don't bother, he thinks Balkan on 23andme equals Paleo-Balkan DNA xD
Most Serbs score 80-90% Balkan and 10-20% East European for example, because South Slavs except Slovenians are part of reference cluster.

But even if they were removed and only Albanians and Greeks kept, still some Slav blood in those :p

No - its a shared ancestry.

In 80% of gedmatch Serbs distance to North Greeks is greater than 15. So in my book its rather too distant - Croatians usually don't even register. It's a shared ancestry.

[Jana]

See amazing isn't it despite the Slavic influences in language still....

Slavs mixed with southern Europeans like Balkan ones won't look Ukrainian on average, especially since northern pigmentation and phenotypes are recessive.
It doesn't mean they don't carry significant Slavic admixture, they all do.

Looks is very poor way to determine ancestry. My father is mostly Slavic genetically but he doesn't look like stereotypical Slav at all.

[Rabbit Hole]

Greek Orthodox Antiochian ?

I don't know my grandfather died when i was 10. I am 35 now and i don't get much if anything at all from my mum which is why i have done like four heritage tests. Besides I don't think they descend from Anatolians or partly Greek partly Anatolian people.

[Dimitri159]

With Yamnaya instead of Sredny Stog and Maykop nothing changes, mainland Greeks still score much more of it than Myceneans.

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.5477% / 0.02547680

57.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
25.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.9286% / 0.01928641

46.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
32.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.3892% / 0.02389224

36.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
27.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.4 WHG

Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.0199% / 0.02019933

38.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
1.6 WHG

Could you find this information for other countries in Europe? I’d like to see comparisons.

[Jana]

No - its a shared ancestry.

In 80% of gedmatch Serbs distance to North Greeks is greater than 15. So in my book its rather too distant - Croatians usually don't even register. It's a shared ancestry.

And they score very little east european on 23andme. Because 23andme Balkan itself is mix of various genes including Slavic. Nothing pure about it.

[Rabbit Hole]

Sounds like a true Galatian, got instagramix?

No I have Facebook. Instagram is just pics and stuff. Anyone here is welcome to add

[Jana]

Could you find this information for other countries in Europe? I’d like to see comparisons.

Just download spreadsheets from Eurogenes blog and you cant ry it out on Vahaduo.

[Faklon]

Ha ha Mycenaeans and Mionians are virtually identical

Nah, Myceneans are clearly Steppe mixed and there weren't early noble samples so there is a decent possibility they cared a lot of integrated native dna.

[Konstantinos]

Slavs mixed with southern Europeans like Balkan ones won't look Ukrainian on average, especially since northern pigmentation and phenotypes are recessive.
It doesn't mean they don't carry significant Slavic admixture, they all do.

Looks is very poor way to determine ancestry. My father is mostly Slavic genetically but he doesn't look like stereotypical Slav at all.

Looks is very reliable when looking at the bigger picture. You may always find outliers and there's variety but there's a reason Greeks barely have any blockheadeds like Bulgarians let alone northern.

[Rabbit Hole]

And they score very little east european on 23andme. Because 23andme Balkan itself is mix of various genes including Slavic. Nothing pure about it.

Croatians do register, Bosnians sometimes don't though actually and get Serbian scores especially if they're from Sarajevo.

[Konstantinos]

Slavs mixed with southern Europeans like Balkan ones won't look Ukrainian on average, especially since northern pigmentation and phenotypes are recessive.
It doesn't mean they don't carry significant Slavic admixture, they all do.

Looks is very poor way to determine ancestry. My father is mostly Slavic genetically but he doesn't look like stereotypical Slav at all.

Looks is very reliable when looking at the bigger picture. You may always find outliers and there's variety but there's a reason Greeks barely have any blockheadeds like Bulgarians let alone northern.

[Rabbit Hole]

And they score very little east european on 23andme. Because 23andme Balkan itself is mix of various genes including Slavic. Nothing pure about it.

Croatians do register, Bosnians sometimes don't though actually and get Serbian scores especially if they're from Sarajevo.

[Faklon]

No I have Facebook. Instagram is just pics and stuff. Anyone here is welcome to add

Link?

[Konstantinos]

Nah, Myceneans are clearly Steppe mixed and there weren't early noble samples so there is a decent possibility they cared a lot of integrated native dna.

There were nobles. The authors said they didn't find differences between elite and commoner.

[Dimitri159]

Nah, Myceneans are clearly Steppe mixed and there weren't early noble samples so there is a decent possibility they cared a lot of integrated native dna.

“Mixed”. What by fucking 16%?! What don’t you people understand that a small input doesn’t mean shit?!

[Faklon]

Who are these newfags?
I work at 6 AM, search some older threads and you will get your answers.

Rabbit Hole share your fb, asking for an anthropologist friend.

[Rabbit Hole]

Nah, Myceneans are clearly Steppe mixed and there weren't early noble samples so there is a decent possibility they cared a lot of integrated native dna.

Well because they inhabited the Steppes and they had a Western Anatolian admixture. Where does the Near Eastern admixture in Minoans mean then? Where is it from?

[Rabbit Hole]

Nah, Myceneans are clearly Steppe mixed and there weren't early noble samples so there is a decent possibility they cared a lot of integrated native dna.

Well because they inhabited the Steppes and they had a Western Anatolian admixture. Where does the Near Eastern admixture in Minoans mean then? Where is it from?

[Rabbit Hole]

Who are these newfags?
I work at 6 AM, search some older threads and you will get your answers.

Rabbit Hole share your fb, asking for an anthropologist friend.

I will in private

[Faklon]

@Rabbit Hole you remind me of some Sappho conceptions, I can see the Greco-Anatolian in you.

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/sappho.jpg

[Faklon]

See you on Orthodox Easter (friday tomonday) lads, mucho free time by then.

[SharpFork]

But how is it possible? Was that anything to do with the R1b substrains there?
I'm not an expert on Y-DNA, but I think there are multiple events that can be argued to be the source for the increase in steppe like Dorians(if they were different), internal migration in the 2 millennia in between, resettlement of Slavs etc.

[SharpFork]

I'm confused here. Is there a study that shows Crete received Anatolian Greeks then significant Slavic in the Middle Ages?
I don't know about the study but G25 models for Cretans show that, they have much more near eastern than Myceneans or Minoans had and despite that they have more Steppe, meaning that they must have good amount of ancestry from north of Greece and from the Near East.

[SharpFork]

Plus, i'm pretty sure Slavs weren't straight outta Ukraine North Europeans when they entered Greece. They were more like South Slavs for sure.
I personally doubt that, the Slavic migration was quite fast, maybe they were inbetween modern South Slavs and original Slavs but I prefer the later, otherwise the population replacement approaches genocide level and it is a self contradicting argument, why did Slavs intermix so much with Northern Romans in the few decades they were there but magically replace Greeks immediately afterwards?

[Lousianaboy]

I knew a blonde greek girl with primitive looking and kinda olive skin however she was naturally blonde and curly hair as a negro