How to Preserve Celtic Culture in the British Isles

[Argyll]

This is one of the things that has been troubling me. Ever since England began it's domination of the Isles, the Celtic cultures still surviving gragually began to dissapate due to either English agression or assimilation (including Cornwall). Now we have multiple races existing there too. They are beginning to mix in with the culture and bring in aspects of their own culture into the pre-existing Celtic cutlure. How can we stop this? I believe that the individual countries of the U.K. need to be independent to themselves. They need to strickly limit any immigration from non-white races. They also need to go back into history and work hard at bringing their Celtic culture back. How can we work to do this?

[Jack B]

They need to strickly limit any immigration from non-white races.

The main immigrants here by quite a distance are Eastern Europeans though, how exactly would the limiting of non whites into Ireland preserve Celtic culture any more if the current immigration trend continues? it would be a far less foreign influence perhaps than that which is brought with non white immigration, but it's still foreign none the less. I'm not saying there isn't a significant non white immigration problem either btw


They also need to go back into history and work hard at bringing their Celtic culture back. How can we work to do this?

I'm not exactly sure what bringing Celtic culture back would entail, "Celtic" culture is a pretty vague thing imo and more importantly, there is plenty of Irish tradition and culture here still which hasn't gone anywhere. The language could use a boost, which can only really happen with everyday use imo, but it's also nowhere near dead as some people like to claim.

[Treffie]

This is one of the things that has been troubling me. Ever since England began it's domination of the Isles, the Celtic cultures still surviving gragually began to dissapate due to either English agression or assimilation (including Cornwall). Now we have multiple races existing there too. They are beginning to mix in with the culture and bring in aspects of their own culture into the pre-existing Celtic cutlure. How can we stop this? I believe that the individual countries of the U.K. need to be independent to themselves. They need to strickly limit any immigration from non-white races. They also need to go back into history and work hard at bringing their Celtic culture back. How can we work to do this?

Due to the very small numbers (almost non-existent) of immigrants from outside Europe settling in the Celtic areas, it isn't really a problem. As Jack B stated, most immigrants that settle in these areas come from Poland.

[Argyll]

Well, I really want a revival, of sorts, of Celtic culture in areas especially like Scotland, Wales, the Isle of Man, and Cornwall. I believe in restricting immigration would hurt the possibilities of half breeds. I would LOVE for the languages (Scotts Gaelic, Cornish, Manx, and Irish) to be taught more in schools, seeing as Welsh is high up in its speakers because of its teaching in most (I believe) schools.

[Osweo]

This is one of the things that has been troubling me.
It really doesn't concern you. I suggest you save your concern for matters closer to home. You can't have any real concept of what's going on here. It's just fairy tales and glib generalisations for you.


Ever since England began it's domination of the Isles, the Celtic cultures still surviving gragually began to dissapate due to either English agression or assimilation (including Cornwall).
Are you even aware of how IRISH many cities in England have become? It's a two-way street. Your concerns are anachronistic.

[Treffie]

Well, I really want a revival, of sorts, of Celtic culture in areas especially like Scotland, Wales, the Isle of Man, and Cornwall. I believe in restricting immigration would hurt the possibilities of half breeds. I would LOVE for the languages (Scotts Gaelic, Cornish, Manx, and Irish) to be taught more in schools, seeing as Welsh is high up in its speakers because of its teaching in most (I believe) schools.

It's not the actual teaching in schools of the language that's increasing the numbers; it's the provision of a fully immersed education system within the language. Teaching it as a second language won't help them.

[Argyll]

What about teaching it as a primary language? I plan on moving to Scotland and attending a university there, so I'd like to get into preserving the Celtic culture. I think that Scotts Gaelic is one of the lesser spoken of the Celtic languages, some 50,000 speakers of it are around.

[Treffie]

What about teaching it as a primary language? I plan on moving to Scotland and attending a university there, so I'd like to get into preserving the Celtic culture. I think that Scotts Gaelic is one of the lesser spoken of the Celtic languages, some 50,000 speakers of it are around.

If you want to become immersed in Gaelic culture, forget the cities. You would need to live with the people of the Outer Hebrides and the Isle of Skye.

[Osweo]

If you want to become immersed in Gaelic culture, forget the cities. You would need to live with the people of the Outer Hebrides and the Isle of Skye.

I recommend Sabhal Mor Ostaig. A friend used to work there.
:thumb001:

[Logan]

Whilst in Edinburgh, I did an O Level at University in Scots Gaelic. It's similar to muscle, use it or lose it.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SK3DYSX3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[Fortis in Arduis]

What about teaching it as a primary language? I plan on moving to Scotland and attending a university there, so I'd like to get into preserving the Celtic culture. I think that Scotts Gaelic is one of the lesser spoken of the Celtic languages, some 50,000 speakers of it are around.

Well buddy, it's either St. Andrews, Edinburgh or Glasgow for you, because although there are other (very) good universities in Scotland, the people who tend to choose to attend them do so because they are either local and want to stay home (which is ominous in itself) or just very boring.

I attended a peripheral university in Scotland, very good for Law and Zoology, but utterly boring on the social side.

The choice really is between those three, the best being St. Andrew's, which is also very right-wing, so you would enjoy. :nod

[Argyll]

I was thinking about living in the Highlands, especially Inverness. I want to do things like archaeology, history, literature, and music. And I looked up Celtic studies and found that the University of Edinburgh offered it as well as the university of Aberdeen.

[_______]

This is one of the things that has been troubling me. Ever since England began it's domination of the Isles, the Celtic cultures still surviving gragually began to dissapate due to either English agression or assimilation (including Cornwall). Now we have multiple races existing there too. They are beginning to mix in with the culture and bring in aspects of their own culture into the pre-existing Celtic cutlure. How can we stop this? I believe that the individual countries of the U.K. need to be independent to themselves. They need to strickly limit any immigration from non-white races. They also need to go back into history and work hard at bringing their Celtic culture back. How can we work to do this?

england has dominated the british isles since forever

[Logan]

england has dominated the british isles since forever:thumb001:

tradwitch1313 is after a myth.:cool: Good luck in your quest.:) Might look up Wicker-man.:eek:
http://www.wicker-man.com/images/wigtown_wicker_weekend06/wigtown_Wicker_Man.jpg

[Mercury]

Yes, saying Celtic culture is much too vague. How much did the continental European Celts really influence the ancient British? Many famous British Celtic symbols (http://www.listphile.com/Celtic_Symbol_Database/Triple_Spiral/image/celtic_triplesymbol.jpg) actually predates the Celtic arrival by a few centuries. I really think meta-ethnicity nonsense. The English aren't Germanic, I think they're simply British. Their culture is linked more with Scotland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales, etc.. than Germany or Scandinavia. I believe the English have their own version of every Celtic holiday. So uhh... I think they're actually pretty Celtic lol.

[Logan]

Keltic as it applies to the British Isles is less actual Hallstatt or La Tene Keltic, and more aboriginal history. There seems to be but little of that. More myth than fact. After the Roman occupation one enters a more pertinent, and reliable history. The present; a union built upon the latter English culture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Hallstatt_LaTene.png

http://history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/123images/shires10th.jpg

[Treffie]

Yes, saying Celtic culture is much too vague. How much did the continental European Celts really influence the ancient British? Many famous British Celtic symbols (http://www.listphile.com/Celtic_Symbol_Database/Triple_Spiral/image/celtic_triplesymbol.jpg) actually predates the Celtic arrival by a few centuries. I really think meta-ethnicity nonsense. The English aren't Germanic, I think they're simply British. Their culture is linked more with Scotland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales, etc.. than Germany or Scandinavia. I believe the English have their own version of every Celtic holiday. So uhh... I think they're actually pretty Celtic lol.

Not many people can define Celtic culture, because they don't really know where to look for it. In Wales though (I can't comment for the other regions), Welsh culture revolves around the Eisteddfodau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisteddfod) which are held annually. These are massive cultural events held solely through the medium of Welsh. Not only do these events highlight and strengthen the musical and literary talent that's within Wales, but they also act as a cultural bond and an occasion to make friends for life between those who speak the language. Apart from the events on the Maes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/walesarts/2011/07/guide_your_way_around_the_maes_national_eisteddfod _wrexham.html), there is the real socialising that needs to get underway (in the National (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Eisteddfod_of_Wales)), notably drinking and singing with the old (and new) friends that one's made - a sort of Welsh apres-ski :D

Whenever I see this, my spine tingles (yeah, they look silly, but this is serious stuff! :p)

Chairing of the Bard - The Gorsedd Prayer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzwqEryew58)

Cerdd dant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z41vMu68a1A) - a type of singing unique to Wales

The Urdd Eisteddfod (it's the largest youth movement in Europe) is seen as a rite of passage for any Welsh speaking youngster. It's exactly the same as the National, but `without` the alcohol.

[Loki]

This is one of the things that has been troubling me. Ever since England began it's domination of the Isles, the Celtic cultures still surviving gragually began to dissapate due to either English agression or assimilation (including Cornwall). Now we have multiple races existing there too. They are beginning to mix in with the culture and bring in aspects of their own culture into the pre-existing Celtic cutlure. How can we stop this? I believe that the individual countries of the U.K. need to be independent to themselves. They need to strickly limit any immigration from non-white races. They also need to go back into history and work hard at bringing their Celtic culture back. How can we work to do this?

Ship the English back to Denmark! :laugh:

[Baron Samedi]

It really doesn't concern you. I suggest you save your concern for matters closer to home. You can't have any real concept of what's going on here. It's just fairy tales and glib generalisations for you.

Are you even aware of how IRISH many cities in England have become? It's a two-way street. Your concerns are anachronistic.

FOOK IRELAND!

[Barreldriver]

It really doesn't concern you. I suggest you save your concern for matters closer to home. You can't have any real concept of what's going on here. It's just fairy tales and glib generalisations for you.

Are you even aware of how IRISH many cities in England have become? It's a two-way street. Your concerns are anachronistic.

:thumb001: to Os.



I see that the OP is South Carolinian, I'd suggest to the OP working to preserve South Carolinian culture, not that I have any particular love for that state in relation to my beloved Tennessee yet it is still "Provincial", the greater Province of Carolina (South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee and a good chunk of Georgia. Granted NC and consequently TN have a lot of Virginian blood, still once officially Provincial) has its own issues when it comes to preserving the cultures that shaped it.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I was thinking about living in the Highlands, especially Inverness. I want to do things like archaeology, history, literature, and music. And I looked up Celtic studies and found that the University of Edinburgh offered it as well as the university of Aberdeen.

Edinburgh or bust. :coffee:

This is Aberdeen:

v_guDN7IZ0U

I have been to Peep Peep's bar, it's actually not too bad, and the harbour area has some of the smartest address. I went to a couple of wild cocaine parties there, back in the day, wall to wall babes...

TmnEWNzngCI

Big Aggie... Can you understand what she is saying? :p

Aberdonian culture is all about making very noisy threats, which are rarely carried out, as well as pretending that one would defend one friends to the death, whereas in fact, the main aim is a pint of Carling, or a line of very poor quality cocaine...

Scotland is, however, a truly violent place.

Scottish people rarely do anything on their own. They are nearly always with friends, and seem to have no individual identity. :rolleyes:

The law in Scotland essentially permits anyone to beat the fuck out of anyone else, because unless there are eye witnesses, the crime cannot be proven, which perhaps accounts for the sticky nature of Scottish social circles: Safety in numbers.

I know, because I beat the fuck out of someone in Scotland and got away with it, Scot-free. :)

kGFk_yYIbww

BudzBar, Aberdeen. It's on Union Street, a mile of steely granite shops and offices which turns into a veritable war zone every weekend, with bodies hitting the tarmac and scantily clad, yet overweight tarts, wobbling their way up and down like so much spam ham.

I used to spend the occasional evening at BudzBar, when I had been chucked out of 'Drum' for 'falling asleep' (coming up on ecstacy and getting all drowsy :nod ) the only other dance venue at the time.

It must have been the last club in the universe to play Hard House music, a peculiarly British phenomenon, made listenable by the consumption of large quantities of MDMA (which is quite cheap in the UK) and rum.

There was a gay club called 'Foundation' in one of the many curious tunnels which run under the city, but the music policy was so bad, that only 17 year old lesbians and hen parties would actually go there.

Aberdeen and Ugly:

KupqHWzcTdk

So this is the reason why you must choose Edinburgh, if you must.

I did love Aberdeen, from the point of view of really getting to know the locals, but actually I woke up one day and realised that the only people I knew in the city, apart from my then girlfriend, were travellers of various types. They were the most fun and interesting people to know there, the rest of it was pure spam ham, marinaded in cheap vodka or bread-heads working in the oil industry.

Edinburgh, on the other hand is uttely fabulous.

[Barreldriver]

Dunno if the OP is upland or flatland S. Carolinian, slim shot given that SC only has 6 upland counties, either way preserving this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urB_EuOb2rY&feature=related

would be more realistic than droppin' all to go overseas.

Maybe it's just his age, see he's only 16, had a bit of naivety myself in teens, perhaps sentiments will change once he gets to know his own home more.

[SaxonCeorl]

I can see Tradwitch's point, but I can also see Osweo's point. Here's an observation/tip from someone with a bit of experience with this type of thing:

Native born ethnic Europeans tend to snicker dirisively at New World ethnic Europeans who are a bit too overzealous and awkward in our love and identification with the "motherland". It's a somewhat fine line between what's embarrasingly overzealous and what's not, but certainly not an impossible line to identify.

That said, it is entirely possible to express your interest in and identification with your European roots in a more subtle way. Done right, most native born Europeans will quite appreciate your interest in your and their shared "motherland".

Either way, it's not terribly important, just something that might prove useful if you do go to Scotland.

[Curtis24]

Celtic culture, like all other European cultures, is being undermined by consumerism and the mass media. Those problems need to be dealt with first before one can even think of trying to revive the Celts.

[Osweo]

I can see Tradwitch's point, but I can also see Osweo's point. Here's an observation/tip from someone with a bit of experience with this type of thing:

Native born ethnic Europeans tend to snicker dirisively at New World ethnic Europeans who are a bit too overzealous and awkward in our love and identification with the "motherland". It's a somewhat fine line between what's embarrasingly overzealous and what's not, but certainly not an impossible line to identify.

That said, it is entirely possible to express your interest in and identification with your European roots in a more subtle way. Done right, most native born Europeans will quite appreciate your interest in your and their shared "motherland".

Either way, it's not terribly important, just something that might prove useful if you do go to Scotland.

Really well said. As a Nationalist, ethnicity is defined for me as a matter of kinship, and so colonial cousins are not nothing to me, given the very real matter of shared blood. However, this over-zealous identification with our Old World identities is laughable. It's often associated with a bizarrely encyclopaedic knowledge of our national histories; people who can recite king lists at me but who lack in any real sense of context, landscape or relevance.

I'll also add, that I'm not at all impressed with anyone who favours his ancestral homeland entirely over his colonial home. I'm most impressed with those who've made an effort to be the best damned American they can be, especially by affording the cultural heritage of their particular regional identity the attention and respect it deserves. Our nations here have no use for those who've betrayed their actual homeland and ethnic group.

[Argyll]

Ok, condem me for being overzealous for my home countries and roots and feeling a deep connection to them. Shoot me. That said, I want to be a historian on Celtic culture and witchcraft. I want to move to Scotland because I feel I belong there. I feel an extremely deep connection to Celtic culture and the land of them. I am much better at European, especially British and some mainland European history than any other histories. I-fucking-hate-South Carolina. I hate the U.S. with a passion. I just want to get out.

I believe in more divine things than what science can prove, so I believe that The Dagda created the Celtic people and I think that the Celtic culture evolved from the natives of the British Isles and elsewhere. Example: The Picts. I don't think they became more "civilized" than the other Celtic people like the Gaels, Welsh, and Cornish.

[Osweo]

I want to move to Scotland because I feel I belong there.
LoL. You seen some pretty picture books?


I-fucking-hate-South Carolina. I hate the U.S. with a passion. I just want to get out.

Shame on your foul impiety. :....

Shouldn't one whose religious convictions are wrapped up in his deeper genealogy have some more respect for his more immediate ancestors, and what they built in South Carolina!?

SHAME.

[Logan]

Clover Scottish Games, Greenville Scottish Highland Games and the Charleston Scottish Games and Highland Gathering. Recognise the cities? You do not seem to be so out of place. Many Highlanders settled in your area after the 45.

Make the most of your current position, it's not so bad as you might think. Things are seldom perfect anywhere. You might well obtain your desires in time. Reality may be a bit different than a vision.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Clover Scottish Games, Greenville Scottish Highland Games and the Charleston Scottish Games and Highland Gathering. Recognise the cities? You do not seem to be so out of place. Many Highlanders settled in your area after the 45.

Make the most of your current position, it's not so bad as you might think. Things are seldom perfect anywhere. You might well obtain your desires in time. Reality may be a bit different than a vision.

Agreed, but an MA (and undergrads in Scotland all receive an MA if they complete the requisite four years) from Edinburgh or St. Andrews would be worth the time spent.

Scotland has a strong academic culture, and it would be good as anything to be found south of the border, although not Harvard or Yale. :cry

At least UK students are not as bitchy and competitive as their mean-spirited US counterparts.

[Barreldriver]

Ok, condem me for being overzealous for my home countries and roots and feeling a deep connection to them. Shoot me.

They aren't your "home countries" they are your ancestors home countries, any sensible Southron recognizes their home "state" as their home country in the sense of the most original blueprint for statehood.


That said, I want to be a historian on Celtic culture and witchcraft. I want to move to Scotland because I feel I belong there. I feel an extremely deep connection to Celtic culture and the land of them. I am much better at European, especially British and some mainland European history than any other histories.

Nothin' wrong to study overseas but the escapist attitude does not do any good.





I-fucking-hate-South Carolina. I hate the U.S. with a passion. I just want to get out.

Those ancestors of yours buried in Provincial soil surely would weep, rather the females more accurately, the men folk would say time to fetch switch.

[Mercury]

My only motherland is Africa. Same goes for the rest of Humanity.

[Sahson]

For those that are oblivious, what is celtic culture? how do you define celtic culture? how is it different from Germanic?

[Graham]

Edinburgh or bust. :coffee:

So this is the reason why you must choose Edinburgh, if you must.

Edinburgh, on the other hand is uttely fabulous.

I agree. Edinburgh's is full of English and Americans. They all seem to love the place. Cuid a'wa's cum tae Livi eh? Livi's the place to be for anyone cultured :D
ojG_AqBPlUs

[Fortis in Arduis]

I agree. Edinburgh's is full of English and Americans. They all seem to love the place. Cuid a'wa's cum tae Livi eh? Livi's the place to be for anyone cultured :D


I have been to Livingston, as I had a dear friend who lived there.

Needless to say, that was not where we met. :)

I think that the social housing strategy for Edinburgh was to keep it well out of the town, apart from the heroin heaven that is Leith Walk and what lies to the east side of it, running south to London Road.

That being a perfect example of how Labour and the Tories worked with a common interest which continued after WWII.

Tory landlords had their tenement blocks filled with housing benefit claimants, and Labour voters.

Edinburgh is one of only two cities in the UK which really compete on the European scale, the other being Bath in Somerset, and it is remarkably beautiful, and leaves London looking like a dogs dinner.

Apart from Robert Adam's Charlotte Square, and St. Andrew's Square, the better architecture is to be found on the newer north side of the New Town, the latter development and indeed the neo-Greek buildings of London Road's Hillside Crescent, and the other peripheries. (IMHO)

'New' is a relative misnomer, because, as we all should know, the New Town was started in 1752.

Purdy pictures here:

http://www.ourplaceworldheritage.com/custom.cfm?action=WHsite&whsiteid=728##_self

[Barreldriver]

I agree. Edinburgh's is full of English and Americans. They all seem to love the place. Cuid a'wa's cum tae Livi eh? Livi's the place to be for anyone cultured :D
ojG_AqBPlUs

What? :P Ye mean my home town of Livingston, Tennessee has an older sibling overseas? lol Here I thought we special. To make matters worse the folks and I have a resident shopping cart.

[Scrapple]

Clover Scottish Games, Greenville Scottish Highland Games and the Charleston Scottish Games and Highland Gathering. Recognise the cities? You do not seem to be so out of place. Many Highlanders settled in your area after the 45.

Make the most of your current position, it's not so bad as you might think. Things are seldom perfect anywhere. You might well obtain your desires in time. Reality may be a bit different than a vision.

tradwitch it sounds to me that you feel a little alienated in South Carolina especially with it's more conservative Christian culture. So you really should do what Wilfred suggested and go to Highland Games and Celtic festivals. They can be a little corny sometimes but they really help you keep in touch culturally.

I do hope you can find a way to connect with your ancestors who came to America and helped to build this country. They have quite a story to tell.

Proud Pennsylvanian here I have had family here since the late 1600's and we love it so much we never left.

[Argyll]

I have been to a Scottish and Celtic festival here in the place I'm living now, it was small but interesting, but still not enough for me. I want to live in the motherland! :D And fuck anyone who says that I don't know anything about all of this shit. Have most of you even been to the states who don't live here already? I am originally from Kentucky, another Scottish hot bead, but still, I feel like I just don't belong here. One of my best friends is from Scotland and she tells me about it all the time. She even says that I belong there, lol. She lived in the U.S. for awhile and hated it, and wanted to move back badly. My favourite Scottish city is Inverness and I really hope to live there someday.
What do most of you know about the "culture" of the United States? If anything, the states are the killing ground for cultures.
And again, fuck anyone who doesn't understand.

[Raikaswinþs]

we can start by encouraging peopleto ditch fake celtic elements such as bagpipes and embrace true Celtic traditions such as bathing in urine. Any kind of bathing would do to to certain folks though. are fitted-carpets in toilets a Celtic tradition?we might want to review that

[Wulfhere]

What about teaching it as a primary language? I plan on moving to Scotland and attending a university there, so I'd like to get into preserving the Celtic culture. I think that Scotts Gaelic is one of the lesser spoken of the Celtic languages, some 50,000 speakers of it are around.

Scottish Gaelic was never the native language of Scotland. It was the language of Irish invaders who settled in the west of Scotland, and later took over its administration. Gaelic is as foreign to Scotland as English is to Britain.

[Raikaswinþs]

I have been to Livingston, as I had a dear friend who lived there.

Needless to say, that was not where we met. :)

I think that the social housing strategy for Edinburgh was to keep it well out of the town, apart from the heroin heaven that is Leith Walk and what lies to the east side of it, running south to London Road.

That being a perfect example of how Labour and the Tories worked with a common interest which continued after WWII.

Tory landlords had their tenement blocks filled with housing benefit claimants, and Labour voters.

Edinburgh is one of only two cities in the UK which really compete on the European scale, the other being Bath in Somerset, and it is remarkably beautiful, and leaves London looking like a dogs dinner.

Apart from Robert Adam's Charlotte Square, and St. Andrew's Square, the better architecture is to be found on the newer north side of the New Town, the latter development and indeed the neo-Greek buildings of London Road's Hillside Crescent, and the other peripheries. (IMHO)

'New' is a relative misnomer, because, as we all should know, the New Town was started in 1752.

Purdy pictures here:

http://www.ourplaceworldheritage.com/custom.cfm?action=WHsite&whsiteid=728##_self

Nah Leith Walk ain't heroine heaven no mo'. Polaks have taken over, and its a relatively safe and nice area to live and walk by at most times.

I lived for two years in Restalrig... and for 1 year in Granton ...now those areas are a bit dodgier , yet far away from Sevilla's "3000 viviendas", or even from anywhere in Glagow :P

[Wulfhere]

Ok, condem me for being overzealous for my home countries and roots and feeling a deep connection to them. Shoot me. That said, I want to be a historian on Celtic culture and witchcraft. I want to move to Scotland because I feel I belong there. I feel an extremely deep connection to Celtic culture and the land of them. I am much better at European, especially British and some mainland European history than any other histories. I-fucking-hate-South Carolina. I hate the U.S. with a passion. I just want to get out.

I believe in more divine things than what science can prove, so I believe that The Dagda created the Celtic people and I think that the Celtic culture evolved from the natives of the British Isles and elsewhere. Example: The Picts. I don't think they became more "civilized" than the other Celtic people like the Gaels, Welsh, and Cornish.

You are aware, are you not, that traditional witchcraft is English, and therefore has Germanic cultural origins?

[Wulfhere]

I have been to a Scottish and Celtic festival here in the place I'm living now, it was small but interesting, but still not enough for me. I want to live in the motherland! :D And fuck anyone who says that I don't know anything about all of this shit. Have most of you even been to the states who don't live here already? I am originally from Kentucky, another Scottish hot bead, but still, I feel like I just don't belong here. One of my best friends is from Scotland and she tells me about it all the time. She even says that I belong there, lol. She lived in the U.S. for awhile and hated it, and wanted to move back badly. My favourite Scottish city is Inverness and I really hope to live there someday.
What do most of you know about the "culture" of the United States? If anything, the states are the killing ground for cultures.
And again, fuck anyone who doesn't understand.

Are you planning to walk round Scotland in a kilt?

[Argyll]

You are aware, are you not, that traditional witchcraft is English, and therefore has Germanic cultural origins?
Um, what about Traditional Scottish and Irish Witchcraft?

And a kilt? Hmmmmm, I dunno........

[Bridie]

This is one of the things that has been troubling me. Ever since England began it's domination of the Isles, the Celtic cultures still surviving gragually began to dissapate due to either English agression or assimilation (including Cornwall). You're about 1600 years too late, mate. :p

[Treffie]

You are aware, are you not, that traditional witchcraft is English, and therefore has Germanic cultural origins?

Erm, the Dwynion Mwyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynion_Mwyn) practised witchcraft which is said to originate from the Druids, who were around in Roman Times.

[Wulfhere]

Um, what about Traditional Scottish and Irish Witchcraft?

And a kilt? Hmmmmm, I dunno........

Look at the witch-trial records. Ireland and Wales are conspicuous by their absence. As, indeed, are the Celtic areas of Scotland. Only Lowland Scotland - which has English cultural ancestry - and England itself, had significant numbers.

In short, an organised witch-tradition is an English phenomenon.

[rhiannon]

Really well said. As a Nationalist, ethnicity is defined for me as a matter of kinship, and so colonial cousins are not nothing to me, given the very real matter of shared blood. However, this over-zealous identification with our Old World identities is laughable. It's often associated with a bizarrely encyclopaedic knowledge of our national histories; people who can recite king lists at me but who lack in any real sense of context, landscape or relevance.

I'll also add, that I'm not at all impressed with anyone who favours his ancestral homeland entirely over his colonial home. I'm most impressed with those who've made an effort to be the best damned American they can be, especially by affording the cultural heritage of their particular regional identity the attention and respect it deserves. Our nations here have no use for those who've betrayed their actual homeland and ethnic group.

This explains why you and I butted heads in another thread, then. Now I understand.

I wish you could understand where some of us colonials are coming from, though.

My ties to Europe, through the blood that flows in my veins, makes me more interested in learning about it, because I am not entirely happy with the American's version of culture. It is not a betrayal. Why must I have to love America in all of its excesses just because I happened to be born here?

The more I learn of Europe, the more I relate to a lot of it....and yet, I will never be entirely European in mindset, because much of the way I think IS Americanized.

The British Isles and its various cultures is dear to me because somewhere in the midst of it....my ancestors sprang forth. It really sucks to be left to conjecture about what cities they hailed from or whether they were Anglos/Saxons/Norse/Celts...or what.

I hope that made sense:)

[Wulfhere]

Erm, the Dwynion Mwyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynion_Mwyn) practised witchcraft which is said to originate from the Druids, who were around in Roman Times.

The Druids did not practice witchcraft. The link you gave me refers to a modern, invented tradition.

[_______]

Erm, the Dwynion Mwyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynion_Mwyn) practised witchcraft which is said to originate from the Druids, who were around in Roman Times.

england is the most magical country in europe

irish and bretton druids travelled to england to hone their skills!

[Wulfhere]

england is the most magical country in europe

irish and bretton druids travelled to england to hone their skills!

That's exactly right, yes. Druids practiced a form of what we today would call ceremonial magic, in addition to divination and various other things.

[Bridie]

Look at the witch-trial records. Ireland and Wales are conspicuous by their absence. As, indeed, are the Celtic areas of Scotland. Only Lowland Scotland - which has English cultural ancestry - and England itself, had significant numbers.

In short, an organised witch-tradition is an English phenomenon.
Famously, the witch-trials had bugger all to do with actually persecuting pagans (or "witches"). It had more to do with wiping out all of those who were perceived as posing a threat to patriarchal rule of all levels of society (especially the spheres that were traditionally designated to women... some aspects of religion, feminine sexuality, home and hearth, childbearing/rearing and the healing arts).

[Wulfhere]

Famously, the witch-trials had bugger all to do with actually persecuting pagans (or "witches"). It had more to do with wiping out all of those who were perceived as posing a threat to patriarchal rule of all levels of society (especially the spheres that were traditionally designated to women... some aspects of religion, feminine sexuality, home and hearth, childbearing/rearing and the healing arts).

Well, that's certainly the current paradigm, yes. But if you look at the actual trial records, it is clear that some sort of organised cult existed.

[Bridie]

Well, that's certainly the current paradigm, yes. But if you look at the actual trial records, it is clear that some sort of organised cult existed.I studied many of them in great at uni and can't remember any evidence that suggested this. :confused:

[Sahson]

I studied many of them in great at uni and can't remember any evidence that suggested this. :confused:

You mean HIS182 at Murdoch? :D :P

[Bridie]

You mean HIS182 at Murdoch? :D :PBah, I can't remember the unit code! :D It was at Murdoch though, yes. :p

[Wulfhere]

I studied many of them in great at uni and can't remember any evidence that suggested this. :confused:

Try Margaret Murray's Witch Cult in Western Europe. Ignore her theories, if you like, just read the masses of transcripts she reproduces. Indeed, it was her later books, in which she indulged in all sorts of flights of fancy, that caused the paradigm shift as a reaction to her work, but in so doing threw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Sahson]

Bah, I can't remember the unit code! :D It was at Murdoch though, yes. :p

Turning points in History. with Professor Helen Brash. I did mine on the norman invasion.

[Argyll]

Scotland had HUGE witchcraft trials, especially in the Highlands. Look up Isobel Gowdie: Isobel GowdieFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Isobel Gowdie

Painting of Isobel Gowdie by Robert Ingpen
Born Believed to be 1632
Auldearn, Scotland
Died Convicted of Witchcraft in 1662, execution not recorded
Isobel Gowdie was a Scottish woman who was tried for witchcraft in 1662. Her detailed confession, apparently achieved without the use of torture, offers one of the most detailed looks at European witchcraft folklore at the end of the era of witch-hunts.

A young housewife living at Auldearn, Highland, Scotland, her confession painted a wild word-picture about the deeds of her coven. They were claimed to have the ability to transform themselves into animals; to turn into a hare, she would say:

I shall go into a hare,
With sorrow and sych and meickle care;
And I shall go in the Devil's name,
Ay while I come home again.
(sych: such; meickle: great)

To change back, she would say:

Hare, hare, God send thee care.
I am in a hare's likeness now,
But I shall be in a woman's likeness even now.
She allegedly was entertained by the Queen of the Fairies, also known as the queen of Elphame, in her home "under the hills."

It is unclear whether Gowdie's confession is the result of psychosis, whether she had fallen under suspicion of witchcraft and sought leniency by confessing, or was she simply much smarter than her inquisitors. It is also unclear whether there was some truth to her remarkable confessions. Her confession was not consistent with the folklore and records of the trials of witches, and it was more detailed than most. There is no record of her being executed.

In 1955, retired English soldier Robin Green believed that he saw the ghost of Isobel Gowdie while camping alone in Auldearn.

Isobel Gowdie and her magic have been remembered in a number of later works of culture. She has appeared as a character in several novels, such as the biographical novels The Devil's Mistress by novelist and occultist J. W. Brodie-Innes, Isobel by Jane Parkhurst, the fantasy novel Night Plague by Graham Masterton, and Noches Paganas: Cuentos Narrados junto al Fuego del Sabbath by Luis G. Abbadie;

Isobel Gowdie is also the subject of songs by Creeping Myrtle and Alex Harvey. Maddy Prior's song The Fabled Hare is based upon the spell quoted above. The Inkubus Sukkubus song Woman to Hare, from the album Vampyre Erotica is based on Isobel's statement, and quotes her words at the end of the lyrics. The Confession of Isobel Gowdie is a work for symphony orchestra by the Scottish composer James MacMillan.

Furthermore, some of her own literary works have been included in Oxford University Press's Early Modern Women Poets: 1520-1700: An Anthology, as well as World Poetry: An Anthology of Verse from Antiquity to Our Time.

[edit] References"A Blondie bewitched": The Sunday Times (Aug. 20, 2007, accessed Sept. 17, 2007)
Davidson, Thomas, Rowan Tree and Red Thread: a Scottish Witchcraft Miscellany of Tales, Legends and Ballads; Together with a Description of the Witches' Rites and ceremonies. (Oliver and Boyd, 1949)
Valiente, Doreen: An ABC of Witchcraft Past and Present (St. Martin, 1975)
Sexual Hauntings Through the Ages -- by Colin Waters (Dorset Press 1994)
James Macmillan's "requiem" for Isobel Gowdie was broadcast by BBC Radio Three in 2010 [1]. The composer said in interview he believed Gowdie's confession was obtained by torture and that she was burned at the stake for witchcraft.
Persondata
Name Gowdie, Isobel
Alternative names
Short description
Date of birth
Place of birth
Date of death
Place of death

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobel_Gowdie"

They more than likely subsituted Nicnevin's (a Scottish Witch goddess) name for the devil.

@byrnecre- I feel a lot the same way! It sucks that we were born in the U.S. because we feel that we should have been born in Europe. I feel that I am not home.

[Wulfhere]

Scotland had HUGE witchcraft trials, especially in the Highlands. Look up Isobel Gowdie: Isobel GowdieFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Isobel Gowdie

Painting of Isobel Gowdie by Robert Ingpen
Born Believed to be 1632
Auldearn, Scotland
Died Convicted of Witchcraft in 1662, execution not recorded
Isobel Gowdie was a Scottish woman who was tried for witchcraft in 1662. Her detailed confession, apparently achieved without the use of torture, offers one of the most detailed looks at European witchcraft folklore at the end of the era of witch-hunts.

A young housewife living at Auldearn, Highland, Scotland, her confession painted a wild word-picture about the deeds of her coven. They were claimed to have the ability to transform themselves into animals; to turn into a hare, she would say:

I shall go into a hare,
With sorrow and sych and meickle care;
And I shall go in the Devil's name,
Ay while I come home again.
(sych: such; meickle: great)

To change back, she would say:

Hare, hare, God send thee care.
I am in a hare's likeness now,
But I shall be in a woman's likeness even now.
She allegedly was entertained by the Queen of the Fairies, also known as the queen of Elphame, in her home "under the hills."

It is unclear whether Gowdie's confession is the result of psychosis, whether she had fallen under suspicion of witchcraft and sought leniency by confessing, or was she simply much smarter than her inquisitors. It is also unclear whether there was some truth to her remarkable confessions. Her confession was not consistent with the folklore and records of the trials of witches, and it was more detailed than most. There is no record of her being executed.

In 1955, retired English soldier Robin Green believed that he saw the ghost of Isobel Gowdie while camping alone in Auldearn.

Isobel Gowdie and her magic have been remembered in a number of later works of culture. She has appeared as a character in several novels, such as the biographical novels The Devil's Mistress by novelist and occultist J. W. Brodie-Innes, Isobel by Jane Parkhurst, the fantasy novel Night Plague by Graham Masterton, and Noches Paganas: Cuentos Narrados junto al Fuego del Sabbath by Luis G. Abbadie;

Isobel Gowdie is also the subject of songs by Creeping Myrtle and Alex Harvey. Maddy Prior's song The Fabled Hare is based upon the spell quoted above. The Inkubus Sukkubus song Woman to Hare, from the album Vampyre Erotica is based on Isobel's statement, and quotes her words at the end of the lyrics. The Confession of Isobel Gowdie is a work for symphony orchestra by the Scottish composer James MacMillan.

Furthermore, some of her own literary works have been included in Oxford University Press's Early Modern Women Poets: 1520-1700: An Anthology, as well as World Poetry: An Anthology of Verse from Antiquity to Our Time.

[edit] References"A Blondie bewitched": The Sunday Times (Aug. 20, 2007, accessed Sept. 17, 2007)
Davidson, Thomas, Rowan Tree and Red Thread: a Scottish Witchcraft Miscellany of Tales, Legends and Ballads; Together with a Description of the Witches' Rites and ceremonies. (Oliver and Boyd, 1949)
Valiente, Doreen: An ABC of Witchcraft Past and Present (St. Martin, 1975)
Sexual Hauntings Through the Ages -- by Colin Waters (Dorset Press 1994)
James Macmillan's "requiem" for Isobel Gowdie was broadcast by BBC Radio Three in 2010 [1]. The composer said in interview he believed Gowdie's confession was obtained by torture and that she was burned at the stake for witchcraft.
Persondata
Name Gowdie, Isobel
Alternative names
Short description
Date of birth
Place of birth
Date of death
Place of death

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobel_Gowdie"

They more than likely subsituted Nicnevin's (a Scottish Witch goddess) name for the devil.

@byrnecre- I feel a lot the same way! It sucks that we were born in the U.S. because we feel that we should have been born in Europe. I feel that I am not home.

You obviously didn't read what I said. Scotland did indeed have a lot of witch trials, but almost all of them were in the Lowlands. Picking just one example that isn't does not alter this. And in any case, she was from the east coast, which was not a Celtic area anyway, but rather a Norse one. Note also that just because a village is in the modern council area called "Highland", doesn't mean it's actually in the Highlands.

[Phil75231]

They are beginning to mix in with the culture and bring in aspects of their own culture into the pre-existing Celtic cutlure. How can we stop this?

All I have to do is quote my own intro post to TA




I believe that truly healthy cultures do change over time as they borrow ideas from others. Therefore, I don't take "preservation" to necessarily mean "hold on to the old ways". Example: New York and Chicago took the Italian food Pizza and put their own stamp on it, yet their culinary habits aren't by any means dominantly, or even exclusively, Italian. Similar story goes for the USA and putting it's own stamp on German foods hamburgers and frankfurters (aka hot dogs). To the extent that I am nationalist, this is the kind of nationalism I can subscribe to.

Cultures change over time as well as from place to place. 19th century England and 1950s England are different cultures - even as either era has little immigration. Same thing with Mexico - 1950s Mexican culture and 21st Century Mexican culture are also two different things. The Celtic nations would be the same even if they did keep their language, etc. perfectly intact from the English. Hell, it'd still be true if they kept the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes off their shores in the first place!

It's a basic simple fact of human existence - healthy cultures change over time! In fact, a non-changing culture is an UNhealthy one because it can't or won't change as the general conditions change (technological change, educational change, industrial/financial changes, etc. etc.). Preservation is all ok as long as it doesn't exclude positive (or even merely non-harmful) influences from elsewhere. You change (to a proper degree in a proper way) with the times or the times steamroll you over.

[Black Turlogh]

What tradwitch thinks she looks like:

http://i51.tinypic.com/hspbfc.jpg

What tradwitch actually looks like:

http://i54.tinypic.com/34pbdj6.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

It's a guy, Black, trad is a 16 y/o queer lol.

[Black Turlogh]

It's a guy, Black, trad is a 16 y/o queer lol.

Oh, delightful. Well, it's not like Scotland couldn't use a gay witch or two. Or is wizard the proper term?

http://www.hijinksensue.com/wp-content/store/images/shirts/wizard_pride_small.jpg

[Argyll]

I fail to see how that is relevant to the current discussion.
The only actual Norse parts of Scotland would be the high up north east and the north eastern island such as the Orkneys and Shetlands.

[Odoacer]

This thread induces cognitive dissonance.

[Argyll]

Witch is either gender. The reason (in my opinion, at least) for the nigh none witch trials or such in Ireland, Wales, and other places, is probably because the people didn't want to cause problems for people who they considered wise (wise women/men and cunning folk) because they often looked to these people for help in their daily lives.

[The Ripper]

Famously, the witch-trials had bugger all to do with actually persecuting pagans (or "witches"). It had more to do with wiping out all of those who were perceived as posing a threat to patriarchal rule of all levels of society (especially the spheres that were traditionally designated to women... some aspects of religion, feminine sexuality, home and hearth, childbearing/rearing and the healing arts).

Seeing as witch trials were a pan-European phenomenon at one point, how does this fit with the fact that most condemned witches in Finland were men? ;)

[Wulfhere]

I fail to see how that is relevant to the current discussion.
The only actual Norse parts of Scotland would be the high up north east and the north eastern island such as the Orkneys and Shetlands.

The Norse influence on Scotland has been decicisive. The Celtic influence, much less so.

[Curtis24]

tradwich, interestingly enough, the university of Edinburgh has a parapsychology program.

[Wulfhere]

Witch is either gender. The reason (in my opinion, at least) for the nigh none witch trials or such in Ireland, Wales, and other places, is probably because the people didn't want to cause problems for people who they considered wise (wise women/men and cunning folk) because they often looked to these people for help in their daily lives.

Why would English people not feel the same? In fact, the only logical explanation is that they simply didn't have witches in Celtic areas. Wise men/women and cunning folk are an English phenomenon. I realise this turns on its head the twiddly-dee Celtic bollocks that has been promulgated since the 19th century, but there you have it. Read some of the works of Ronald Hutton, if you want to know the facts.

[Nacolas]

Celts were redhaired Turks.

[Osweo]

Erm, the Dwynion Mwyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynion_Mwyn) practised witchcraft which is said to originate from the Druids, who were around in Roman Times.



Dynion Mwyn church history claims the teachings evolved from an oral Faerie Tradition: "The Children of Dôn chose to stay in Wales after the invasion of the Celts, and took refuge under the hills." [3] The Religious Tradition of Dynion Mwyn was revitalized in the 50s and 60s by Taliesin einion Vawr a Dynion Mwyn High Priest, in North Wales. He combined elements of Pictish Witchcraft, Knights Templar philosophy, Druidry teachings, Etruscan religious ritual, NROOGD magickal ritual and Kibbo Kift ceremony in his workings. The original Mother Organization, Dynion Mwyn, was said to be created between 1282 and 1525, by descendants of the Bards of Prince Llewellyn, the last true prince of Wales. [4] In the summer of 1965, William (an American working in Europe), met his future teacher, Sarah Llewellyn, on the Isle of Majorca, Spain, and an instant spiritual connection began. Robert Graves, who wrote The White Goddess, spent the last year of his life about 2 miles from their meeting-place.[5]
:rotfl: REALLY, Tref, you got to try harder than THAT! :bowlol:
'Witch' is an English word. Of course there were similar types in other countries, but applying our word to them is rather a questionable thing in many cases.

My ties to Europe, through the blood that flows in my veins, makes me more interested in learning about it, because I am not entirely happy with the American's version of culture. It is not a betrayal. Why must I have to love America in all of its excesses just because I happened to be born here?
:tsk: Are you unable to find an America lacking in these 'excesses'? You haven't looked very hard.


england is the most magical country in europe

irish and bretton druids travelled to england to hone their skills!
:p They certainly came to Britain - and from ALL of Gaul, never mind the future Britanny! - but once they got here it seems likely that they headed for Mona - now known as Ynys Mon, or Anglesey.... ;)


Famously, the witch-trials had bugger all to do with actually persecuting pagans (or "witches"). It had more to do with wiping out all of those who were perceived as posing a threat to patriarchal rule of all levels of society (especially the spheres that were traditionally designated to women... some aspects of religion, feminine sexuality, home and hearth, childbearing/rearing and the healing arts).
LoL.
It was about heresy, and private grudges, and often actual fear of malevolent supernatural activities.

Scotland had HUGE witchcraft trials, especially in the Highlands. Look up Isobel Gowdie: Isobel Gowdie
Born Believed to be 1632
Auldearn, Scotland
Welll.... Auldearn is an ENGLISH name. It means simply 'old building'. If it was Gaelic, it would be Teighshan or the like. And it's a rather old form of English, if it's still using the word 'earn' ('barn' has it as an element - bere earn is the older longer form).

Auldearn is in Nairnshire.
http://www.pavetechnology.co.uk/images/maps/nairnshire.gif
Now, is this a pure Gaelic Celtic Highlander sort of place or not? Well, look at the 'Highland line';
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/HighlandLineGeo.png
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_IPaPWGoFwJA/TFMUkrpRDVI/AAAAAAAACAY/oVbYdfIiouI/AB82726A-5DDF-4D24-986F-85B403C299CE.jpg

LoL, Nairn was English speaking as early as 1400! :eek:
http://www.linguapax.org/congres/taller/taller2/hicks1.jpg

Her NAME isn't Gaelic, either.
Look at the map here, for the distribution of the surname Gowdie in 1881;
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=GOWDIE&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name
It's mostly concentrated in Ayrshire (refer to the language border maps above).
http://guide.visitscotland.com/vs/images/RGN/17/RGN717vs/ayrshire-areas.gif

I don't know what it means, but it's not obviously Gaelic. COULD be a local form of 'goldie' perhaps? That's English in any case. Perhaps from an old name like Goldgyth? Don't quote me on that though! :D Could be a local placename of Strathclyde Cumbrian origin, I don't know.


,,,
I shall go into a hare,
With sorrow and sych and meickle care;
And I shall go in the Devil's name,
Ay while I come home again.
(sych: such; meickle: great)

To change back, she would say:

Hare, hare, God send thee care.
I am in a hare's likeness now,
But I shall be in a woman's likeness even now.
She allegedly was entertained by the Queen of the Fairies, also known as the queen of Elphame, in her home "under the hills."
LoL, that's all in ENGLISH. Why isn't she speaking GAELIC?1?!? She's part of Lowlands culture. :rolleyes:

And 'Elphame'! Elf - Home! Alfheim! Could you GET more Germanic a name!?



They more than likely subsituted Nicnevin's (a Scottish Witch goddess) name for the devil.
:bowlol:


The only actual Norse parts of Scotland would be the high up north east and the north eastern island such as the Orkneys and Shetlands.

Kid, you an't got a clue.
It's hard finding a decent 'at a glance' map online, so I made one;
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9364/redrosenooo.gif
You know nothing about this country that you so 'identify' with.

[SaxonCeorl]

This explains why you and I butted heads in another thread, then. Now I understand.

I wish you could understand where some of us colonials are coming from, though.

My ties to Europe, through the blood that flows in my veins, makes me more interested in learning about it, because I am not entirely happy with the American's version of culture. It is not a betrayal. Why must I have to love America in all of its excesses just because I happened to be born here?

The more I learn of Europe, the more I relate to a lot of it....and yet, I will never be entirely European in mindset, because much of the way I think IS Americanized.

The British Isles and its various cultures is dear to me because somewhere in the midst of it....my ancestors sprang forth. It really sucks to be left to conjecture about what cities they hailed from or whether they were Anglos/Saxons/Norse/Celts...or what.

I hope that made sense:)

Yes, that made sense to me, and I think this is something that native-born Europeans would have trouble understanding, just as they would say that we don't really understand Europe (although many New Worlders indeed do not really understand Europe).

As far as I'm concerned, our blood and culture were forged in Europe, and nothing can ever change or replace that. For me, native-born Europeans have no more right to their European identity than New Worlders do. Again, I don't talk about this publicly, because I know it will often be met with derision. That, in essence, was the reason for my initial post.

So, just to clarify, I think it's perfectly fine and normal for New World Europeans to feel a stronger bond with Europe than they do with their birthland; I certainly do. I was merely providing a tip to the OP that it might be best to be a bit subtle about this topic in front of native-born Europeans, as they don't understand and will probably find it all a bit awkward and embarrassing. If you're fine with that...well, then okay.

[Argyll]

Osweo, dear, Auld is a Scots word meaning old. As you know, Scots came from the English language and basically developed into it's own language pretty much. I'd like to know how and why you all think that witches weren't in the Celtic nations. Like you all told me: sources, sources, sources. If you actually looked, you'd find that there (and is!) a whole hell of a lot of Scottish witchcraft. Here just a little bit:

Nicnevin or Nicnevan (whose name is from a Scottish Gaelic surname meaning "daughter of the little saint")[1] is a Queen of the Fairies in Scottish folklore. The use of the name for this meaning was first found in Montgomerie’s Flyting (c.1585)[1] and was seemingly taken from a woman condemned to death for witchcraft before being given, in Scotland, to the Fairy Queen[2]. In the Borders the name for this archetype was Gyre-Carling whose name had variants such as Gyre-Carlin, Gy-Carling, Gay-Carlin amongst others[3]. Gyre is possibly a cognate of the Norse word geri and thus having the meaning of "greedy"[4] or it may be from the Norse gýgr meaning "ogress"[1]; carling or carline is a Scots and Northern English word meaning "old woman" which is from, or related to, the Norse word kerling (of the same meaning)[5][6].

She was sometimes thought of as the mother witch, Hecate, or Habundia figure of Scottish fairy mythology.[7] This guise is frankly diabolical.[8] Sir Walter Scott calls her:

a gigantic and malignant female, the Hecate of this mythology, who rode on the storm and marshalled the rambling host of wanderers under her grim banner. This hag (in all respects the reverse of the Mab or Titania of the Celtic creed) was called Nicneven in that later system which blended the faith of the Celts and of the Goths on this subject. The great Scottish poet Dunbar has made a spirited description of this Hecate riding at the head of witches and good neighbours (fairies, namely), sorceresses and elves, indifferently, upon the ghostly eve of All-Hallow Mass. In Italy we hear of the hags arraying themselves under the orders of Diana (in her triple character of Hecate, doubtless) and Herodias, who were the joint leaders of their choir, But we return to the more simple fairy belief, as entertained by the Celts before they were conquered by the Saxons.[9]
Alexander Montgomerie, in his Flyting, described her as:

Nicnevin with her nymphes, in number anew
With charms from Caitness and Chanrie of Ross
Whose cunning consists in casting a clew.[10]

Even so, the elder Nicnevin or Gyre-Carling retained the habit of night riding with an "elrich" entourage mounted on unlikely and supernatural steeds. Another, satirical popular depiction made her leave Scotland after a love-quarrel with her neighbor, to become wife of "Mahomyte" and queen of the "Jowis". She was an enemy of Christian people, and "levit vpoun Christiane menis flesche"; still, her absence caused dogs to stop barking and hens to stop laying.[11] But in Fife, the Gyre-Carling was associated with spinning and knitting, like Habetrot; here it was believed to be unlucky to leave a piece of knitting unfinished at the New Year, lest the Gyre-Carling should steal it.[12]

Queen of ElphameFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
In the folklore of Lowland Scotland and Northern England, the Queen of Elphame, Elphen, Elfen or Elfan (and also Elfin Queen, Fairy Queen or Faery Queen)[1][2] is the elfin ruler of Elphame (Elf-home; compare Norse Álfheimr), the usually subterranean Anglo-Scottish fairyland. She appears in a number of traditional supernatural ballads, including Thomas the Rhymer and Tam Lin. She also appears in a number of accounts from witchcraft trials and confessions, including the confession of Isobel Gowdie. A similar concept in Border folklore is that of Gyre-Carling or Nicnevin.

[edit] Appearance, character, and abilitiesThe Queen of Elphame is variously depicted as attractive and demonic. In Thomas the Rhymer, she is initially mistaken for the Virgin Mary by the protagonist:


Thomas the Rhymer meets the Queen of Elphame in an illustration by Kate Greenaway.True Thomas lay oer yond grassy bank,
And he beheld a ladie gay,
A ladie that was brisk and bold,
Come riding oer the fernie brae.
...

True Thomas he took off his hat,
And bowed him low down till his knee:
“All hail, thou mighty Queen of Heaven!
For your peer on earth I never did see.”

“O no, O no, True Thomas,” she says,
“That name does not belong to me;
I am but the queen of fair Elfland,
And I’m come here for to visit thee.[3]

A similar picture is painted by the 1591 witchcraft confession of Andro Mann of Aberdeen. Mann confessed that he saw "the Devil" his "master in the likeness and shape of a woman, whom thou callest the Queen of Elphen."[4] Mann further confessed that the Queen of Elphen rode white horses, and that she and her companions had human shapes, "yet were as shadows", and that they were "playing and dancing whenever they pleased."[5] Isobel Gowdie's confession also noted that the Queen of Elphame was "brawlie" clothed in white linen, and that she got more food from the Queen than she could eat.[6]

But, in Tam Lin the Queen of Elphame is a more sinister figure. She captures mortal men, and entertains them in her subterranean home; but then uses them to pay a "teind to Hell":

When we were frae the hunting come,
That frae my horse I fell,
The Queen o' Fairies she caught me,
In yon green hill do dwell.

"And pleasant is the fairy land,
But, an eerie tale to tell,
Ay at the end of seven years,
We pay a tiend to hell,
I am sae fair and fu o flesh,
I'm feard it be mysel.[7]

This ballad tells of the struggle of its heroine Janet, who must overcome the Queen's shape shifting magic to rescue a would-be victim from the Fairy Ride on Halloween.

The Queen's shape-shifting magic extends to her own person. Mann's confession also noted that "she can be old or young as she pleases".[8]

Nicnevin


Then a clear Companie came soon after closs,
Nicneven with her Nymphs, in number anew,
With Charms from Caitness and Chanrie in Ross,
Whose Cunning consists in casting a Clew…

Nicnevin is the Queen of Elphame, the queen of the fairies, spirits, and strange creatures, queen of the Unseelie Court of Alba. She reigns with a male consort at her side, but his name is never given, it is my guess he changes with her moods. She is the Gyre Carline and appears sometimes in the Scottish tales as Habetrot, a crone-like spirit known for her magical powers of spinning, weaving and clothmaking. It is said she wears a long grey mantle and carries a white wand and can appear as an old crone or a beautiful young woman. White geese are sacred to her and their cackling may herald her arrival. In this we see she is linked with the Germanic goddess Holda… Hel, queen of the Underworld, the leader of the Wild Hunt in Norse legend. She is Mother Nicnevin, queen of witches, the Mother of Witches, the “great muckle Wallowa”. “This was the name given to the grand Mother Witch, the very Hecate of Scottish popular superstition. Her name was bestowed, in one or two instances, upon sorceresses, who were held to resemble her by their superior skill in Hell’s black grammar’” (Source).

Samhuinn Eve is the night of Nicnevin. Some say her sacred days are November 9th and 11th, but it is truley Samhuin when she rides the skies with her Unseelie host, and between the hours of 9 and 10pm she allows herself and her host to be visible to mortal eyes… It is said on this night at dusk she rises from the underworld, passing through Shoni’s realm beneath the sea to rise into the world of mortals and open the gate to the Otherworld so the spirits of the dead may cross to our world. Her Unseelie host of spirits and dark creatures fly with her into the skies, and woe any man who crosses their path. Yule, or Midwinter is also said to be one of her sacred days. The women of our ancestors would always ensure to finish any spinning before Yule and empty their distaffs as Nicnevin would punish any woman found working on her sacred day by stealing the valuable fibre left on their distaffs…

Contrary to what some folklorists say, Nicnevin is not really the Cailleach – the Scots Beira. Instead, Nicnevin is a part of the Cailleach; her darker half, the hag-crone, one piece of the whole. Cailleach is a primordial creation goddess, a giantess, the stones and bones of Alba – an ancient Earth Goddess. Nicnevin is the daughter of the Cailleach as “nic” means “daughter of” and Nevin refers to Ben Nevis, the Cailleach’s seat of power, the tallest mountain in Alba. The Cailleach is said to embody the mountains and Ben Nevis is her favourite for she can see all her creation and her kingdom from its heights.

Nicnevin is a goddess of witches, magic, crossroads, and is linked to the dark moon – invoke her for any ritual, rite or spell for your witchcraft as a Wiccan would invoke the god and goddess at every rite. She must be invoked to travel to the Otherworld or underworld and it is still best to ask for her protection when travelling after dark. Her domain and associations are much the same as Hekate and Hel’s, but with Scottish cultural differences of course. She can grant the ability to talk to spirits of all realms and to travel between worlds. She can also grant specific magical powers if you spend the night on one of her hills, a crossroads, or by the sea in a place where land, sea and sky are all represented. You can ask for a witch’s power, for divinatory skills, plant knowledge, skills with certain spells and witchcraft practices… To do this you must bring offerings for her, arrive at dusk, invoke Nicneven and wait for her. If she does not arrive, come the next night and the next… nine at the most. If she does not arrive by the ninth time, that power is not meant for you. If she does arrive – or sends a spirit in her place, state out loud what you wish and leave your offering right away. Do not scream, do not run away in fear or you will forfeit your gift. As a Scots goddess she prefers libations – your best bet is whiskey, mead, cider or a good ale. Do not cheap out, give her the good stuff or home brew if you make it.

To Invoke Nicnevin for Ritual or Rites
To invoke the Queen of Elphame, recite this call: “O Micol, Micol regina Pigmeorum veni” and first there will be a gentle wind, then a whirlwind, and then a storm in which she will appear in all her glory (Darker Superstitions of Scotland, p. 537)

To invoke her for a rite, hold a cup of libations to the sky and shout:

“Nicenevin! Nicnevin! Queen of Witches! I call to thee!
I ask in your grace that you part the veil of night,
And open the gate to the Otherworld.
As we give honor to our ancestors,
We give honor to you who guides them here!
Drink with us and aid our rite,
In the name of the grand Mother Witch!”

To invoke her during ritual sing The Witches’ Reel from 1591, to hear how it is to be sung listen to Green Crown’s version:

Cummer gae ye afore, cummer gae ye,
Gin ye winna gae, cummer let me,
Ring-a-ring-a-widdershins
Linkin lithely widdershins,
Cummers carlin cron and queyn
Roun gae we.

Cummer go ye before, cummer go ye
If ye willna go before, cummer let me
Ring-a-ring-a-widdershins
Loupin’ lightly widdershins
Kilted coats and fleein’ hair
Three times three

Cummer go ye before, cummer go ye
If ye willna go before, cummer let me
Ring-a-ring-a-widdershins
Whirlin’ skirlin’ widdershins
De’il tak the hindmost
Wha’er she be

The Witches’ Charm ~ To Dedicate Yourself to Nicnevin
Documented in the Orkeys by folklorist Walter Traill Dennison in the 1880s, the witches’ charm is a dedication ritual to the witch gods from whom the witch wishes to attain magical powers. During the full moon, go to a solitary beach on the sea. Turn yourself around three times witherlins and lay down on the beach at the ebb — the area between high and low tide. Place a stone at each of your outstretched hands and feet, one at the head, one at the chest cavity, and one over the heart totalling seven stones. Speak aloud:

O Mistress Queen of all that’s ill,
Come fill me with the Witches’ Skill,
And I shall serve with all my will.
Trow take me if I sin!
Trow take me if I fly!
Trow take me when I cannot!
Come take me now, and take me all,
Take lungs and liver, organs and feet,
Take me, take me, now I say!
From the brow of the head, to the tip of the toe.
Take all that’s out and in of me.
Take hair and hide and all to thee.
Take heart and brains, flesh, blood and bones,
Take all between the seven stones!
In the name of the Great Dark Witch!

Lay quiet and meditate for a few moments, then open your eyes, turn on your left side, rise and throw each stone individually into the sea crying: “Trow take me with each throw!”.

http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/Research/witches/

http://www.freewebs.com/witherlins/
(terrible layout, but good content)

http://www.traditionalirishwitch.com/

[Wulfhere]

Osweo, dear, Auld is a Scots word meaning old. As you know, Scots came from the English language and basically developed into it's own language pretty much. I'd like to know how and why you all think that witches weren't in the Celtic nations. Like you all told me: sources, sources, sources. If you actually looked, you'd find that there (and is!) a whole hell of a lot of Scottish witchcraft. Here just a little bit:

Nicnevin or Nicnevan (whose name is from a Scottish Gaelic surname meaning "daughter of the little saint")[1] is a Queen of the Fairies in Scottish folklore. The use of the name for this meaning was first found in Montgomerie’s Flyting (c.1585)[1] and was seemingly taken from a woman condemned to death for witchcraft before being given, in Scotland, to the Fairy Queen[2]. In the Borders the name for this archetype was Gyre-Carling whose name had variants such as Gyre-Carlin, Gy-Carling, Gay-Carlin amongst others[3]. Gyre is possibly a cognate of the Norse word geri and thus having the meaning of "greedy"[4] or it may be from the Norse gýgr meaning "ogress"[1]; carling or carline is a Scots and Northern English word meaning "old woman" which is from, or related to, the Norse word kerling (of the same meaning)[5][6].

She was sometimes thought of as the mother witch, Hecate, or Habundia figure of Scottish fairy mythology.[7] This guise is frankly diabolical.[8] Sir Walter Scott calls her:

a gigantic and malignant female, the Hecate of this mythology, who rode on the storm and marshalled the rambling host of wanderers under her grim banner. This hag (in all respects the reverse of the Mab or Titania of the Celtic creed) was called Nicneven in that later system which blended the faith of the Celts and of the Goths on this subject. The great Scottish poet Dunbar has made a spirited description of this Hecate riding at the head of witches and good neighbours (fairies, namely), sorceresses and elves, indifferently, upon the ghostly eve of All-Hallow Mass. In Italy we hear of the hags arraying themselves under the orders of Diana (in her triple character of Hecate, doubtless) and Herodias, who were the joint leaders of their choir, But we return to the more simple fairy belief, as entertained by the Celts before they were conquered by the Saxons.[9]
Alexander Montgomerie, in his Flyting, described her as:

Nicnevin with her nymphes, in number anew
With charms from Caitness and Chanrie of Ross
Whose cunning consists in casting a clew.[10]

Even so, the elder Nicnevin or Gyre-Carling retained the habit of night riding with an "elrich" entourage mounted on unlikely and supernatural steeds. Another, satirical popular depiction made her leave Scotland after a love-quarrel with her neighbor, to become wife of "Mahomyte" and queen of the "Jowis". She was an enemy of Christian people, and "levit vpoun Christiane menis flesche"; still, her absence caused dogs to stop barking and hens to stop laying.[11] But in Fife, the Gyre-Carling was associated with spinning and knitting, like Habetrot; here it was believed to be unlucky to leave a piece of knitting unfinished at the New Year, lest the Gyre-Carling should steal it.[12]

Queen of ElphameFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
In the folklore of Lowland Scotland and Northern England, the Queen of Elphame, Elphen, Elfen or Elfan (and also Elfin Queen, Fairy Queen or Faery Queen)[1][2] is the elfin ruler of Elphame (Elf-home; compare Norse Álfheimr), the usually subterranean Anglo-Scottish fairyland. She appears in a number of traditional supernatural ballads, including Thomas the Rhymer and Tam Lin. She also appears in a number of accounts from witchcraft trials and confessions, including the confession of Isobel Gowdie. A similar concept in Border folklore is that of Gyre-Carling or Nicnevin.

[edit] Appearance, character, and abilitiesThe Queen of Elphame is variously depicted as attractive and demonic. In Thomas the Rhymer, she is initially mistaken for the Virgin Mary by the protagonist:


Thomas the Rhymer meets the Queen of Elphame in an illustration by Kate Greenaway.True Thomas lay oer yond grassy bank,
And he beheld a ladie gay,
A ladie that was brisk and bold,
Come riding oer the fernie brae.
...

True Thomas he took off his hat,
And bowed him low down till his knee:
“All hail, thou mighty Queen of Heaven!
For your peer on earth I never did see.”

“O no, O no, True Thomas,” she says,
“That name does not belong to me;
I am but the queen of fair Elfland,
And I’m come here for to visit thee.[3]

A similar picture is painted by the 1591 witchcraft confession of Andro Mann of Aberdeen. Mann confessed that he saw "the Devil" his "master in the likeness and shape of a woman, whom thou callest the Queen of Elphen."[4] Mann further confessed that the Queen of Elphen rode white horses, and that she and her companions had human shapes, "yet were as shadows", and that they were "playing and dancing whenever they pleased."[5] Isobel Gowdie's confession also noted that the Queen of Elphame was "brawlie" clothed in white linen, and that she got more food from the Queen than she could eat.[6]

But, in Tam Lin the Queen of Elphame is a more sinister figure. She captures mortal men, and entertains them in her subterranean home; but then uses them to pay a "teind to Hell":

When we were frae the hunting come,
That frae my horse I fell,
The Queen o' Fairies she caught me,
In yon green hill do dwell.

"And pleasant is the fairy land,
But, an eerie tale to tell,
Ay at the end of seven years,
We pay a tiend to hell,
I am sae fair and fu o flesh,
I'm feard it be mysel.[7]

This ballad tells of the struggle of its heroine Janet, who must overcome the Queen's shape shifting magic to rescue a would-be victim from the Fairy Ride on Halloween.

The Queen's shape-shifting magic extends to her own person. Mann's confession also noted that "she can be old or young as she pleases".[8]

Nicnevin


Then a clear Companie came soon after closs,
Nicneven with her Nymphs, in number anew,
With Charms from Caitness and Chanrie in Ross,
Whose Cunning consists in casting a Clew…

Nicnevin is the Queen of Elphame, the queen of the fairies, spirits, and strange creatures, queen of the Unseelie Court of Alba. She reigns with a male consort at her side, but his name is never given, it is my guess he changes with her moods. She is the Gyre Carline and appears sometimes in the Scottish tales as Habetrot, a crone-like spirit known for her magical powers of spinning, weaving and clothmaking. It is said she wears a long grey mantle and carries a white wand and can appear as an old crone or a beautiful young woman. White geese are sacred to her and their cackling may herald her arrival. In this we see she is linked with the Germanic goddess Holda… Hel, queen of the Underworld, the leader of the Wild Hunt in Norse legend. She is Mother Nicnevin, queen of witches, the Mother of Witches, the “great muckle Wallowa”. “This was the name given to the grand Mother Witch, the very Hecate of Scottish popular superstition. Her name was bestowed, in one or two instances, upon sorceresses, who were held to resemble her by their superior skill in Hell’s black grammar’” (Source).

Samhuinn Eve is the night of Nicnevin. Some say her sacred days are November 9th and 11th, but it is truley Samhuin when she rides the skies with her Unseelie host, and between the hours of 9 and 10pm she allows herself and her host to be visible to mortal eyes… It is said on this night at dusk she rises from the underworld, passing through Shoni’s realm beneath the sea to rise into the world of mortals and open the gate to the Otherworld so the spirits of the dead may cross to our world. Her Unseelie host of spirits and dark creatures fly with her into the skies, and woe any man who crosses their path. Yule, or Midwinter is also said to be one of her sacred days. The women of our ancestors would always ensure to finish any spinning before Yule and empty their distaffs as Nicnevin would punish any woman found working on her sacred day by stealing the valuable fibre left on their distaffs…

Contrary to what some folklorists say, Nicnevin is not really the Cailleach – the Scots Beira. Instead, Nicnevin is a part of the Cailleach; her darker half, the hag-crone, one piece of the whole. Cailleach is a primordial creation goddess, a giantess, the stones and bones of Alba – an ancient Earth Goddess. Nicnevin is the daughter of the Cailleach as “nic” means “daughter of” and Nevin refers to Ben Nevis, the Cailleach’s seat of power, the tallest mountain in Alba. The Cailleach is said to embody the mountains and Ben Nevis is her favourite for she can see all her creation and her kingdom from its heights.

Nicnevin is a goddess of witches, magic, crossroads, and is linked to the dark moon – invoke her for any ritual, rite or spell for your witchcraft as a Wiccan would invoke the god and goddess at every rite. She must be invoked to travel to the Otherworld or underworld and it is still best to ask for her protection when travelling after dark. Her domain and associations are much the same as Hekate and Hel’s, but with Scottish cultural differences of course. She can grant the ability to talk to spirits of all realms and to travel between worlds. She can also grant specific magical powers if you spend the night on one of her hills, a crossroads, or by the sea in a place where land, sea and sky are all represented. You can ask for a witch’s power, for divinatory skills, plant knowledge, skills with certain spells and witchcraft practices… To do this you must bring offerings for her, arrive at dusk, invoke Nicneven and wait for her. If she does not arrive, come the next night and the next… nine at the most. If she does not arrive by the ninth time, that power is not meant for you. If she does arrive – or sends a spirit in her place, state out loud what you wish and leave your offering right away. Do not scream, do not run away in fear or you will forfeit your gift. As a Scots goddess she prefers libations – your best bet is whiskey, mead, cider or a good ale. Do not cheap out, give her the good stuff or home brew if you make it.

To Invoke Nicnevin for Ritual or Rites
To invoke the Queen of Elphame, recite this call: “O Micol, Micol regina Pigmeorum veni” and first there will be a gentle wind, then a whirlwind, and then a storm in which she will appear in all her glory (Darker Superstitions of Scotland, p. 537)

To invoke her for a rite, hold a cup of libations to the sky and shout:

“Nicenevin! Nicnevin! Queen of Witches! I call to thee!
I ask in your grace that you part the veil of night,
And open the gate to the Otherworld.
As we give honor to our ancestors,
We give honor to you who guides them here!
Drink with us and aid our rite,
In the name of the grand Mother Witch!”

To invoke her during ritual sing The Witches’ Reel from 1591, to hear how it is to be sung listen to Green Crown’s version:

Cummer gae ye afore, cummer gae ye,
Gin ye winna gae, cummer let me,
Ring-a-ring-a-widdershins
Linkin lithely widdershins,
Cummers carlin cron and queyn
Roun gae we.

Cummer go ye before, cummer go ye
If ye willna go before, cummer let me
Ring-a-ring-a-widdershins
Loupin’ lightly widdershins
Kilted coats and fleein’ hair
Three times three

Cummer go ye before, cummer go ye
If ye willna go before, cummer let me
Ring-a-ring-a-widdershins
Whirlin’ skirlin’ widdershins
De’il tak the hindmost
Wha’er she be

The Witches’ Charm ~ To Dedicate Yourself to Nicnevin
Documented in the Orkeys by folklorist Walter Traill Dennison in the 1880s, the witches’ charm is a dedication ritual to the witch gods from whom the witch wishes to attain magical powers. During the full moon, go to a solitary beach on the sea. Turn yourself around three times witherlins and lay down on the beach at the ebb — the area between high and low tide. Place a stone at each of your outstretched hands and feet, one at the head, one at the chest cavity, and one over the heart totalling seven stones. Speak aloud:

O Mistress Queen of all that’s ill,
Come fill me with the Witches’ Skill,
And I shall serve with all my will.
Trow take me if I sin!
Trow take me if I fly!
Trow take me when I cannot!
Come take me now, and take me all,
Take lungs and liver, organs and feet,
Take me, take me, now I say!
From the brow of the head, to the tip of the toe.
Take all that’s out and in of me.
Take hair and hide and all to thee.
Take heart and brains, flesh, blood and bones,
Take all between the seven stones!
In the name of the Great Dark Witch!

Lay quiet and meditate for a few moments, then open your eyes, turn on your left side, rise and throw each stone individually into the sea crying: “Trow take me with each throw!”.

http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/Research/witches/

http://www.freewebs.com/witherlins/
(terrible layout, but good content)

http://www.traditionalirishwitch.com/

There's a whole lot of Scottish witchcraft, but none of it Celtic. All of those references you posted clearly state that they're talking about the Lowlands, the Borders, and even Northern England. Lowland and Borders Scots are not Celtic, but Anglo-Saxon. The Scots dialect is a Germanic language.

[Argyll]

How do you know it's not Celtic? Where did it come from, then? If what you're saying is true, then shouldn't all Celtic culture, or nigh all of it, be gone as well?

[Wulfhere]

How do you know it's not Celtic? Where did it come from, then? If what you're saying is true, then shouldn't all Celtic culture, or nigh all of it, be gone as well?

What are you on about? The Lowland Scots are not Celtic because the Gaels never reached there or settled there. The population is Anglo-Saxon, and have been speaking English long before there was ever a Scotland.

Celtic culture (i.e. language) does exist in parts of Scotland - remote islands in the west - but these have nothing in common with the Lowlands, and indeed, the Scottish state often tried to suppress the Gaelic elements. In short, whatever you think you know, Scotland is not a Celtic country, though, like England, it has small pockets of Celts on the extreme western fringes.

All these witches you're talking about are from the Lowlands, they speak English, and they use ancient English terms such as Elphame.

[Barreldriver]

I fail to see how that is relevant to the current discussion.
The only actual Norse parts of Scotland would be the high up north east and the north eastern island such as the Orkneys and Shetlands.

Ever hear of Danelaw? Northumbria, an Anglian and later Danelaw kingdom included a healthy chunk of the Southeast Scotland. ;)

[Argyll]

Scotland IS a Celtic country :) The Picts and Gaels settled great parts of Scotland. And Celts also settled England as well.

[Argyll]

http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/thepicts.html

http://www.clans.org.uk/hist_4.html

"The migration and expansion of Celts into Scotland changed the line of succession to the throne. The Pictish line of succession flowed through the females, whereas the Scotts bloodlines were traced through the male side. As the Celts acquired more wealth and land, they became more powerful. The Celtic nobility in Scotland soon became more powerful than the Picts who ruled the land. As a result, the line of Pictish Kings gradually went into obscurity. The Picts did not completely die out, they just adapted to the ruling power. In the Shetland Islands and Orkney, the language spoken was a Norse variation called Norn. In the lowlands, a mixture of the Brythonic languages were spoken by people who had been displaced during the Roman invasions. However, in most of Scotland, Gaelic became the accepted tongue."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt

[The Ripper]

I for one am happy that Osweo has found a new punching bag. :D

[Wulfhere]

http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/thepicts.html

http://www.clans.org.uk/hist_4.html

"The migration and expansion of Celts into Scotland changed the line of succession to the throne. The Pictish line of succession flowed through the females, whereas the Scotts bloodlines were traced through the male side. As the Celts acquired more wealth and land, they became more powerful. The Celtic nobility in Scotland soon became more powerful than the Picts who ruled the land. As a result, the line of Pictish Kings gradually went into obscurity. The Picts did not completely die out, they just adapted to the ruling power. In the Shetland Islands and Orkney, the language spoken was a Norse variation called Norn. In the lowlands, a mixture of the Brythonic languages were spoken by people who had been displaced during the Roman invasions. However, in most of Scotland, Gaelic became the accepted tongue."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt

Whoever wrote that "forgot" to mention that the major part of the Scottish population, in the Lowlands, was Anglo-Saxon.

[Wulfhere]

Scotland IS a Celtic country :) The Picts and Gaels settled great parts of Scotland. And Celts also settled England as well.

If Scotland is Celtic, then so is England. It is certainly possible to argue thus, but it tends to render the term meaningless.

[Argyll]

Originally, Celtic people settled England, and today, it is considered a Celtic nation. Especially Cornwall.

[Wulfhere]

Originally, Celtic people settled England, and today, it is considered a Celtic nation. Especially Cornwall.

Celtic is a linguistic term, always bear that in mind. Language influences culture, of course, but other than that, it's difficult to see how most of England could be considered Celtic. Pagan traditions in both England, and Lowland Scotland, derive from Anglo-Saxon Heathenism (with Scandinavian influences).

[Argyll]

I don't see, really, any Anglo-Saxon influences in Scotland. But we all have our theories. Haven't you read about Queen Boudica?

[Treffie]

Originally, Celtic people settled England, and today, it is considered a Celtic nation. Especially Cornwall.

England was Celtic; there's not much to show that it's Celtic these days.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't see, really, any Anglo-Saxon influences in Scotland. But we all have our theories. Haven't you read about Queen Boudica?


Right..!
My advice: get your queer ass over to the U.K and then think again, mmkay ?

KTHXBye !

[Wulfhere]

I don't see, really, any Anglo-Saxon influences in Scotland. But we all have our theories. Haven't you read about Queen Boudica?

It's not a theory! All of south-east Scotland was part of Northumbria. Please look it up. You don't see any Anglo-Saxon influence in Scotland? What language do they speak?

Yes, of course I've read about Boudica.

[Argyll]

Anglo-saxon sucks anyway..... Celts rule! But now being serious. Most English people are probably a mix between Celtic and Anglo-Saxon because of their whole invasion of the island. They probably mixed with the people anyway. I know a Scots girl who would put a lot of your theories to shame Civis :)

[Treffie]

Right..!
My advice: get your queer ass over to the U.K and then think again, mmkay ?

KTHXBye !

There's no need for this type of comment, Civis. Just plain nasty.

[The Lawspeaker]

There's no need for this type of comment, Civis. Just plain nasty.
Maybe. But he has been corrected several times over and he continues to post his rubbish here so I don't see why I should treat him with my gloves on. Particularly if this 1968-ish, hyper-liberal piece of rubbish just has come to this forum to post his fantasies here.

He is obviously a troll.

[Wulfhere]

Anglo-saxon sucks anyway..... Celts rule! But now being serious. Most English people are probably a mix between Celtic and Anglo-Saxon because of their whole invasion of the island. They probably mixed with the people anyway. I know a Scots girl who would put a lot of your theories to shame Civis :)

Yes, genetically the English are a hybrid (as, indeed, are all the peoples of the British Isles). But that has little or nothing to do with language or culture, which is what we were talking about.

[johngaunt]

Anglo-saxon sucks anyway..... Celts rule! But now being serious. Most English people are probably a mix between Celtic and Anglo-Saxon because of their whole invasion of the island. They probably mixed with the people anyway. I know a Scots girl who would put a lot of your theories to shame Civis :)

Scotland was always multicultural

Sir William Wallace (c 1270-1305) and King Robert the Bruce
( 1274-1329). Arguably two of Scotland’s greatest national heroes, their surnames today would be considered as quintessentially Scottish as MacTavish or MacDonald. Y et William’s father, Sir Malcolm Wallace of Elderslie, could trace his lineage to the influential Breton family of the Fitz-Alans. In 1174 Richard Wallensis, a vassal of Walter Fitz-Alan, was appointed Steward of Scotland by David 1. The name Wallensis or Walyes or Walays was the usual English term for a Welshman and this certainly seems to indicate that the family came from the Welsh Marshes to Scotland
w ith Walter Fitz-Alan.

Robert the Bruce could trace his line to Adam de Brus who came over with William the Conqueror’s invading Norman army and who actually fought at The Battle of
Hastings in 1066.

I remember even Malcom king of Scotland refering to the Angles in the south east (Edinburgh the captial included).

http://www.craigmount.edin.sch.uk/publications/Jock%20Campbell%27s%20Bairns.pdf

[Treffie]

Maybe. But he has been corrected several times over and he continues to post his rubbish here so I don't see why I should treat him with my gloves on. Particularly if this 1968-ish, hyper-liberal piece of rubbish just has come to this forum to post his fantasies here.

He's only 16 ffs, give him a chance. I think a lot of us were filled with unrealistic ideas at that age. Hopefully, tradwitch will learn something.


He is obviously a troll.

Don't think so. Naive perhaps. Still, it's not very nice to insult someone who hasn't insulted you; or am I missing something?

[Argyll]

Corrected? I have asked you for anything that contradicts me, yet you never post anything. You're being the troll for staying here, continuing to post, and stalking my threads. If you don't like it, then why are you viewing it?

Anyway, about preserving Celtic culture. I believe it is extremely important for us, and for us to remember our roots and help to keep them pure. I am over half Celtic, the other being a slight bit of Anlgo-Saxon.

[Argyll]

He's only 16 ffs, give him a chance. I think a lot of us were filled with unrealistic ideas at that age. Hopefully, tradwitch will learn something.



Don't think so. Naive perhaps. Still, it's not very nice to insult someone who hasn't insulted you; or am I missing something?

I only did once because he insulted me, but I endeavor to treat everyone here as nice as possible. I am looking for friends and allies, not enemies. I don't really think my ideas are unrealistic. I there's a will there's a way.

[Treffie]

Corrected? I have asked you for anything that contradicts me, yet you never post anything. You're being the troll for staying here, continuing to post, and stalking my threads. If you don't like it, then why are you viewing it?

Anyway, about preserving Celtic culture. I believe it is extremely important for us, and for us to remember our roots and help to keep them pure. I am over half Celtic, the other being a slight bit of Anlgo-Saxon.

Celtic and Anglo Saxon are meaningless these days. One is either English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh etc.

[The Lawspeaker]

Corrected? I have asked you for anything that contradicts me, yet you never post anything. You're being the troll for staying here, continuing to post, and stalking my threads. If you don't like it, then why are you viewing it?

We have shown you plenty of stuff that contradicts your weird ideas and yet you still continue to repeat the mantra. A lot of it came from people that actually live there or who have visited the place. You don't know anything about the way things there work and I really suggest that you put down your neo-pagan-hippie "How to be a Teenage Witch"kind off- books and snap back to reality. Save up and visit the place for yourself.

[Argyll]

Well, if some people believe that, then why not try to revive it? :D

[Wulfhere]

Corrected? I have asked you for anything that contradicts me, yet you never post anything. You're being the troll for staying here, continuing to post, and stalking my threads. If you don't like it, then why are you viewing it?

Anyway, about preserving Celtic culture. I believe it is extremely important for us, and for us to remember our roots and help to keep them pure. I am over half Celtic, the other being a slight bit of Anlgo-Saxon.

Celtic culture, certainly in Wales, is in no danger. It has by far the largest number of Celtic-language speakers and the number is apparently slightly increasing. Massive government and EU subsidies don't hurt it, either.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, if some people believe that, then why not try to revive it? :D
Because life is no "How to be a teenage witch"- fantasy ?

[Treffie]

Celtic culture, certainly in Wales, is in no danger. It has by far the largest number of Celtic-language speakers and the number is apparently slightly increasing. Massive government and EU subsidies don't hurt it, either.

It's in great danger in the Fro Gymraeg (red)

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/map002.gif

[Argyll]

We have shown you plenty of stuff that contradicts your weird ideas and yet you still continue to repeat the mantra. A lot of it came from people that actually live there or who have visited the place. You don't know anything about the way things there work and I really suggest that you put down your neo-pagan-hippie "How to be a Teenage Witch"kind off- books and snap back to reality. Save up and visit the place for yourself.


This is sad. It's funny how you act like you know someone. You have never once given me a source, other than you own rotten opinion, that contradicts anything. Please leave my threads alone, as you are of no use to them. I don't want them cluttered up with useless arguements.

[Wulfhere]

It's in great danger in the Fro Gymraeg (red)

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/map002.gif

No real danger of actually dying out, though.

[The Lawspeaker]

This is sad. It's funny how you act like you know someone. You have never once given me a source, other than you own rotten opinion, that contradicts anything. Please leave my threads alone, as you are of no use to them. I don't want them cluttered up with useless arguements.
While you are frankly of no use to many people here. Your ideas come straight from the source that has feminised and damaged Europe. I see no reason not to correct you as I actually LIVE IN EUROPE. And I know my history despite of pc-indoctrination. And 99 percent of everything you say is absolute rubbish. May it be about Heathenism, the Celts, homosexuality in Pagan Europe or Christianity and I see no reason to respect your feelings. None. You have been warned, corrected, refuted and still you continue to play off the mantra.

Either get a book and read up on it, visit the place or just go play D&D.

[Argyll]

Besides, I threw out all of my Lewellyn crap anyways :D

[Treffie]

No real danger of actually dying out, though.

In danger of becoming a non-living language.

[Black Turlogh]

Anyway, about preserving Celtic culture. I believe it is extremely important for us, and for us to remember our roots and help to keep them pure. I am over half Celtic, the other being a slight bit of Anlgo-Saxon.

You'd do better to do away with any fantastical notions you have about Celticness and Celtic culture. Let the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc. worry about preserving their own respective identities and traditions. We don't need an American kid who fancies himself a witch telling us how to go about things.

[Wulfhere]

In danger of becoming a non-living language.

Do you honestly think so? In my experience, it's still very much a living language, even amongst the young, in North Wales. If it has survived centuries of official discouragement, I doubt it will be hurt by the current official encouragement.

[Argyll]

You know, it's sad when some people can't see beyond their ignorant noses. FYE for ANYONE who hasn't caught on yet: I hate, h-a-t-e, the United States and all that it stands for and wish to leave this blighted land. Now, back to intelligent discussion.

[The Lawspeaker]

You know, it's sad when some people can't see beyond their ignorant noses. FYE for ANYONE who hasn't caught on yet: I hate, h-a-t-e, the United States and all that it stands for and wish to leave this blighted land. Now, back to intelligent discussion.
Why ? Because a lot of people despise your unmanly homosexuality ? Guess what: a lot of Europeans still do it as well. They just keep quiet about it because of the hate speech laws.

[Treffie]

Do you honestly think so? In my experience, it's still very much a living language, even amongst the young, in North Wales. If it has survived centuries of official discouragement, I doubt it will be hurt by the current official encouragement.


STATISTICS can be selectively chosen to make any kind of point. Take the Welsh language, for example. The 2001 census showed that the number of people who speak Welsh had risen significantly, and that trend will no doubt continue in the statistics of the next census as well.

The demand for Welsh-medium education is higher than it has ever been, even outside the traditional Welsh-speaking areas. Adult Welsh classes are filling up all over Wales, and Welsh is even a language of government these days, enjoying (in theory, at least) equal status with English on the floor of the Senedd Siambr. Surely anyone can see that the Welsh language has been saved? The erosion of the language has been stopped in its tracks, and the position of the language is now stronger than it’s been for many decades. That much is obvious, right?

Well actually, no. That’s only half the story. There are more people who speak Welsh, it’s true, but the survival of Welsh depends on its use as a community language. Most communities where Welsh is the majority language are being diluted by monoglot English-speaking incomers, which threatens the status of Welsh as a community language.

In many of our coastal and rural areas young people often cannot afford to stay in their communities, as they are generally priced out of the housing market and often have poor employment prospects. Their only choice is to leave to find work and affordable housing, and their place is taken by incomers who can afford the houses but don’t speak Welsh. Then the linguistic nature of the community gradually (or not so gradually, in some cases) changes as more and more people there speak only English, and less and less speak Welsh. It doesn’t take long before the linguistic make-up of the community has changed to the extent that the default language of the community is English. When the Welsh language ceases to be the language of the community as most of the people there don’t speak it, it is in danger of dying out. Within a generation it will be effectively dead in that community.

Even worse – many of the houses in the community are not only bought by outsiders, but are just used as holiday homes. There are villages and streets in parts of Wales that are almost empty outside of the tourist season, while locals have been displaced because they can’t afford to live there. How can this be right or fair?

The Welsh language now is under more threat than it has ever been. To many people in Wales, this is unacceptable. So what can be done to arrest the decline?

The Government should put tighter restrictions on the housing market, to take both language and local economic issues into account. The emphasis in new development should be on building affordable houses for local people, rather than the current practice of building a token percentage of affordable housing as part of larger developments aimed primarily at wealthy incomers. Local authorities should also be able to place restrictions on the number of people from outside the area who are allowed to move in and buy houses, to give the advantage back to local people. This policy would help rural communities in both Welsh and English-speaking areas, so it’s not something that would need to be introduced purely on linguistic grounds.

Tied in with this would come the necessary powers to enforce this policy with estate agents who would otherwise seek the largest profit over the good of the communities in which their housing stock is situated.

In considering any planning applications in rural Wales, particularly in tourist areas, it should be a requirement that planning authorities must consider the impact of any mooted housing development on the linguistic make-up of the community. Again, emphasis should be on local homes for local people, and taxes on second homes should be much higher than on main residences, to discourage people from buying holiday homes.

The right to buy council houses should be abolished, to avoid further erosion of the social housing stock available in Wales. More properties should be made available for young families to rent in their local area. Money should be invested in the building of new housing stock specifically for local people to rent.

Job creation should, of course, be a priority. This means encouragement for new companies and industries (or new branches of already existing ones) to locate in areas of Wales outside the M4 and A55 corridors. People will only stay in their communities if there are sufficient employment opportunities within easy reach of those communities. In order to make more of Wales accessible and therefore more able to attract and sustain businesses, better north-south transport links would be required. This would ideally include a direct rail route and improved road links.

In short, the needs of Welsh communities and the people living in them should take preferences over those of holiday home buyers and other incomers.

Of course, there are those who would see all this as unnecessary. Some of them would claim to be in favour of saving the Welsh language (though many would not even go that far) but not at the expense of changes in the housing market. What we need to consider is this: once the Welsh language is gone, it will be gone forever. Once Welsh-speaking communities are eroded away to the point of nothingness, we cannot bring them back. If Welsh is to survive as anything other than an academic interest or a part-time hobby for learners, radical action is needed now to preserve its status in those communities in which it is still (for now) the majority language. Otherwise we will have lost one of our greatest treasures for all time, and it will be nobody’s fault but our own.

[Wulfhere]

Well, it's certainly a shame, but you can't preserve these things in amber. If people find English more useful, then let them speak it. If Welsh survives, it will be on its own merits.

[Odoacer]

You know, it's sad when some people can't see beyond their ignorant noses. FYE for ANYONE who hasn't caught on yet: I hate, h-a-t-e, the United States and all that it stands for and wish to leave this blighted land. Now, back to intelligent discussion.

The word is "fie" (& the phrase is usually "fie on ..."). And you can hate the U.S. all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you are an American with some fanciful ideas about Europe.

[Black Turlogh]

FYE for ANYONE who hasn't caught on yet: I hate, h-a-t-e, the United States and all that it stands for and wish to leave this blighted land. Now, back to intelligent discussion.

The trouble is that you're assuming we'll welcome you and your nonsensical ideas with open arms. I'm beginning to wonder if this is something particular to Americans: you think you can barge in anywhere and at anytime you like and the rest of us just need to stomach it.

Have you even been to Scotland?

[Argyll]

didn't I say that there is to be only intelligent discussion? This is about preserving cultures, not showing your ass and acting like an ignorant fool.

[Treffie]

Well, it's certainly a shame, but you can't preserve these things in amber. If people find English more useful, then let them speak it. If Welsh survives, it will be on its own merits.

It's not that people aren't using it by choice which is the problem, it's because
many of the houses in the communities are bought by outsiders and are used as holiday homes.

[Argyll]

It's not that people aren't using it by choice which is the problem, it's because
many of the houses in the communities are bought by outsiders and are used as holiday homes.

That needs to be stopped.

[The Lawspeaker]

didn't I say that there is to be only intelligent discussion? This is about preserving cultures, not showing your ass and acting like an ignorant fool.
Is it become I come to close to the root of your little problem with your country. I know some folks in SC. My ex happens to be from that state and she is on this forum as well. The people over there seem to good conservative, religious folks (for a large part.. particularly those on the countryside) who are proud of what they are and that is your problem: because they accept none of your PC-hyper liberal rubbish. The same PC- hyper liberal rubbish that has poisoned my country and most Europe. Infecting it with the worst of the Sexual Revolution, political correctness, multiculturalism, sub-cultures etc.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's not that people aren't using it by choice which is the problem, it's because
many of the houses in the communities are bought by outsiders and are used as holiday homes.
While it may benefit the economy.. it will also damage local cultures. We are having the same problems here on the countryside with outsiders buying up properties and refusing to fit in to the local culture and are thus exporting urban, rich-kid ideas and the standard-Dutch language.

[Treffie]

While it may benefit the economy.. it will also damage local cultures. We are having the same problems here on the countryside with outsiders buying properties and refusing to fit in to the local culture and are thus exporting urban, rich-kid ideas and the standard-Dutch language.

That and the fact that property becomes unaffordable for the locals.

[The Lawspeaker]

That and the fact that property becomes unaffordable for the locals.
Exactly.. and thus a lot of young locals are being driven into the cities.

[Black Turlogh]

didn't I say that there is to be only intelligent discussion? This is about preserving cultures, not showing your ass and acting like an ignorant fool.

And what intelligent discussion is that? I see a lot of rubbish about witchcraft and Celticness, both of which are widely understood to be the product of 19th-20th century revivalism and romanticism. Neither have any real applicable purpose as far as preservation of the aforementioned identities is concerned.

The Scottish, Welsh, Manx, etc. can speak for themselves, but I would say that many of your fantastical ideas would rather be corrosive to the real, Catholic identity and tradition of Ireland that we've held for, at the very least, 1300 years. Go build your Celtic heathen paradise elsewhere.

[Wulfhere]

It's not that people aren't using it by choice which is the problem, it's because
many of the houses in the communities are bought by outsiders and are used as holiday homes.

Similar problems are affecting other places too. Villages where the locals are forced out by the rich. We need to change this.

[The Lawspeaker]

Similar problems are affecting other places too. Villages where the locals are forced out by the rich. We need to change this.
Hmm maybe something that I have read about the Swiss might help. I am not sure where I found it but I read that in some parts they have a legal rule that if an outsider wants to build a purchase a house he has to ask the neighbours for permission. We could expand on that by stating that there should be a full-scale local referendum held on the question whether a particular outsider can build or purchase a house.

[Peasant]

Originally, Celtic people settled England, and today, it is considered a Celtic nation. Especially Cornwall.

When do we English get our membership of the Celtic League? :laugh:

[Wulfhere]

Hmm maybe something that I have read about the Swiss might help. I am not sure where I found it but I read that in some parts they have a legal rule that if an outsider wants to build a purchase a house he has to ask the neighbours for permission. We could expand on that by stating that there should be a full-scale local referendum held on the question whether a particular outsider can build or purchase a house.

We would propose parish councils at which all citizens of a community can speak and vote on such matters, which would amount to the same thing in practice.

[johngaunt]

Do you honestly think so? In my experience, it's still very much a living language, even amongst the young, in North Wales. If it has survived centuries of official discouragement, I doubt it will be hurt by the current official encouragement.

I know that in the Welsh rugby team, they use line out calls in Welsh so that opposing teams dont understand - I assume most of them know it then !

Not sure if the Irish and Scottish teams can do that though. I notice that with South African sides also - they always use Afrikaans for line outs etc.

[Wulfhere]

I know that in the Welsh rugby team, they use line out calls in Welsh so that opposing teams dont understand - I assume most of them know it then !

The British Army has also used Welsh to confound the enemy.

[Treffie]

The British Army has also used Welsh to confound the enemy.

Same reason why we use it today :p

[Wulfhere]

Same reason why we use it today :p

Ah yes, the linguistic switch when you walk into a pub... I once considered learning it, just to surprise them.

[johngaunt]

Same reason why we use it today :p

I don't think Wales has any problems with this anyway. With there eisteddfod (prob spelt that wrong) Male voice choirs, language and distinct, rugby oriented culture - confounded by their shitty year round weather, will maintain some unique culture.

I must say that I find the eisteddfod to be somewhat fake, as a victoria creation. Along with people below the central belt of Scotland wearing kilts and not 'trews' - this celtic fakery is simply a backlash to the creeping anglosphere - although I understand it.

Im still met with glares of wonder when I tell Americans that kilts weren't worn at the battle of Bannockburn etc. Scotsmen didn't begin wearing the "traditional" plaid kilt until the eighteenth century. Before that they wore plaid, to be sure, but they did not not wear kilts.

[Treffie]

Ah yes, the linguistic switch when you walk into a pub... I once considered learning it, just to surprise them.

I code-switch when I'm speaking to other Welsh speakers. A member here on the forum can vouch for that. Please don't think that you're special if they do it when you walk into a room. :D

[Treffie]

I don't think Wales has any problems with this anyway. With there eisteddfod (prob spelt that wrong) Male voice choirs, language and distinct, rugby oriented culture - confounded by their shitty year round weather, will maintain some unique culture.

Having bronchial conditions (caused by perpetual rainfall) does help when speaking the language.


I must say that I find the eisteddfod to be somewhat fake, as a victoria creation. Along with people below the central belt of Scotland wearing kilts and not 'trews' - this celtic fakery is simply a backlash to the creeping anglosphere - although I understand it.

Of course it is. It was revived during the romantic era.

[johngaunt]

Having bronchial conditions (caused by perpetual rainfall) does help when speaking the language.



Of course it is. It was revived during the romantic era.

Yeh, actually after I thought about - I kind of dont mind that its fake in away - becuase the English put all this type of thing down, if its going to be revived, that has to be some initial 'fakery' I guess :)

[Treffie]

Yeh, actually after I thought about - I kind of dont mind that its fake in away - becuase the English put all this type of thing down, if its going to be revived, that has to be some initial 'fakery' I guess :)

Let's put it this way; I'd rather it assist in the revival of a language when it is still alive than if it's a completely dead language.

[Argyll]

I wish Scotts Gaelic was spoken more.

[Treffie]

I wish Scotts Gaelic was spoken more.

Have fun! :thumb001: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/foghlam/learngaelic/)

[Argyll]

I've been to this before. I haven't been on it in awhile though, I learned the basic phrases from there, lol.

[Aces High]

How can we work to do this?

Learn how to fight like us Anglo Saxons for a start.:cool:

[Logan]

...Im still met with glares of wonder when I tell Americans that kilts weren't worn at the battle of Bannockburn etc. Scotsmen didn't begin wearing the "traditional" plaid kilt until the eighteenth century. Before that they wore plaid, to be sure, but they did not not wear kilts.

You would have seen quite a few Kilts or philabegs at Bannockburn and up to the last rebellion of 1745-46. The modern one is different, but it is still a Kilt.
http://www.scottishstrawberries.com/images/cross1.jpg

Feileadh Mor
http://www.lindaclifford.com/Images/CorkGreatKiltA.jpg

It's wore differently today.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_H5kAZb40_o8/S6py0G8Gu1I/AAAAAAAACBg/IncXiG231Ds/s320/kilt-highland_games.jpg

European Culture Scottish Style.
http://www.grandfather.com/media/GMHGpics/dancer.jpg

Respect was earned long ago. '…devil’s ladies, as the Kaiser himself had named us'.
http://postcard-heaven.co.uk/images/daily%20mail%20highlanders%20pipe%20ix%2065.jpg
http://www.old-print.com/mas_assets/full/E2711917160.jpg

[johngaunt]

You would have seen quite a few Kilts or philabegs at Bannockburn and up to the last rebellion of 1745-46. The modern one is different, but it is still a Kilt.
http://www.scottishstrawberries.com/images/cross1.jpg

Feileadh Mor
http://www.lindaclifford.com/Images/CorkGreatKiltA.jpg

It's wore differently today.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_H5kAZb40_o8/S6py0G8Gu1I/AAAAAAAACBg/IncXiG231Ds/s320/kilt-highland_games.jpg

European Culture Scottish Style.
http://www.grandfather.com/media/GMHGpics/dancer.jpg

Respect was earned long ago. '…devil’s ladies, as the Kaiser himself had named us'.
http://postcard-heaven.co.uk/images/daily%20mail%20highlanders%20pipe%20ix%2065.jpg
http://www.old-print.com/mas_assets/full/E2711917160.jpg

They were plaids they wore at Bannockburn et al, not kilts, but plaids were worn by many groups in northern europe and not linked with Scots, including the dreaded English. Infact I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was mainly worn by Scandinavian migrants to Scotland.

Having said that, I think a kilt worn with all the trimmings looks great - Since I have McLeod roots I dont feel such an imposter wearing one either :D

[Logan]

Plaid can mean the cloth or pattern. Tartan is a pattern consisting of criss-crossed horizontal and vertical bands in multiple colours. I believe your correct about the origin of the word Kilt, but not the Feileadh Mor. I would imagine it to be Irish or Erin in origin. Such attire was common to the ancients in many places.
http://irishweddingbagpipes.art.officelive.com/images/Irish%20kilt%20Ireland%20native%20clothing%20costu me%20.jpg.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5179/5454072668_4695434e17.jpg

Be nice to hear from Graham.:cool:

[Osweo]

Here just a little bit:
]
Kid, there are some potentially interesting things in that extract, but can you honestly not see that the author flies around from one thing to another, giving nothing the fuller attention it deserves? Interesting evidence is followed by the wildest conjectures, with no attempt made to link the two by reasoning! This is Buffy the Vampire Slayer kind of stuff. :tsk:


What are you on about? The Lowland Scots are not Celtic because the Gaels never reached there or settled there. The population is Anglo-Saxon, and have been speaking English long before there was ever a Scotland.
Broadly correct, if we neglect the serious influence of substrata, especially of the Strathclyde Cumbre. But that discussion would be rather beyond TW. :wink

[Graham]

There's another name for the modern Kilt. Scots 'Fillabeg' or 'phillabeg'. From Scottish Gaelic feileadhbeag, meaning feileadh kilt + beag small.

It's said that the wee Kilt, Was made by an Englishman living in Lochaber during the 18th century. The Kilt evolved and the Jacobites and locals took to them.

Belt Plaid is the word used for the blanket like piece of fabric that would rap around the body. It's much older and hadn't changed much.
http://www.tartansauthority.com/assets/images/dress/Ancient/Belted%20Plaid%20French.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Highland_soldier_1744.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Lord_Mungo_Murray_c1680.jpg
Lord Mungo 1680
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Farquharson_%28R._R._McIan%29.jpg
Clan Farqharson, Finlay is apart of :)

Then they were banned.

The Act of Proscription (19 Geo. 2, c. 39) was an Act of the Parliament of Great Britain, which came into effect in Scotland on 1 August 1746. It was part of a series of efforts to assimilate the Scottish Highlands, ending their ability to revolt, and the first of the 'King's laws' which sought to crush the Clan system in the aftermath of the Jacobite Rising of 'Forty-Five. These laws were finally repealed on 1 July 1782.



That from and after the first day of August, One thousand, seven hundred and forty-six, no man or boy within that part of Britain called Scotland, other than such as shall be employed as Officers and Soldiers in His Majesty's Forces, shall, on any pretext whatever, wear or put on the clothes commonly called [B]Highland clothes (that is to say) the Plaid, Philabeg, or little Kilt, Trowse, Shoulder-belts, or any part whatever of what peculiarly belongs to the Highland Garb; and that no tartan or party-coloured plaid of stuff shall be used for Great Coats or upper coats, and if any such person shall presume after the said first day of August, to wear or put on the aforesaid garment or any part of them, every such person so offending ... For the first offence,shall be liable to be imprisoned for 6 months, and on the second offence, to be transported to any of His Majesty's plantations beyond the seas, there to remain for the space of seven years.

[johngaunt]

Kid, there are some potentially interesting things in that extract, but can you honestly not see that the author flies around from one thing to another, giving nothing the fuller attention it deserves? Interesting evidence is followed by the wildest conjectures, with no attempt made to link the two by reasoning! This is Buffy the Vampire Slayer kind of stuff. :tsk:


Broadly correct, if we neglect the serious influence of substrata, especially of the Strathclyde Cumbre. But that discussion would be rather beyond TW. :wink

I think the kingdom of Strathcylde was Briton. Place names such as Lanark (Llanerch meaning "clear space, glade" in Welsh) and Kings going by the name of Owain - cant get more Welsh really. Later they were brought under the influence of Northumberland and germanicised !

Found this map of the language division showing it as Welsh speaking.

Scotland was truely a hodge podge at this time, with Norn spoken in the far north - Pictish north east, gaelic in the west and English in the south!!!

[Wulfhere]

I code-switch when I'm speaking to other Welsh speakers. A member here on the forum can vouch for that. Please don't think that you're special if they do it when you walk into a room. :D

I code-switch too, when I'm talking to Brummies, or outsiders. In the latter case, all you'll hear is my accent. We all do.

[Wulfhere]

I wish Scotts Gaelic was spoken more.

Learn it then.

[johngaunt]

There's another name for the modern Kilt. Scots 'Fillabeg' or 'phillabeg'. From Scottish Gaelic feileadhbeag, meaning feileadh kilt + beag small.

It's said that the wee Kilt, Was made by an Englishman living in Lochaber during the 18th century. The Kilt evolved and the the Jacobites and locals took to them.

Belt Plaid is the word used for the blanket like piece of fabric that would rap around the body. It's much older and hadn't changed much.
http://www.tartansauthority.com/assets/images/dress/Ancient/Belted%20Plaid%20French.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Highland_soldier_1744.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Lord_Mungo_Murray_c1680.jpg
Lord Mungo 1680
http://stiabhanmor.tripod.com/COTC_Farquharson.jpg
Clan Farqharson, Finlay is apart of :)

Then they were banned.

Interesting stuff.... funny to see that theyd get ''shipped off to the plantations'' on second offence ! Crazy - im sure their ancestors in Australia are happy about it though :D

Maybe one of my ancestors was a rebellious swine from the highlands after all :P

[Wulfhere]

I think the kingdom of Strathcylde was Briton. Place names such as Lanark (Llanerch meaning "clear space, glade" in Welsh) and Kings going by the name of Owain - cant get more Welsh really. Later they were brought under the influence of Northumberland and germanicised !

Found this map of the language division showing it as Welsh speaking.

Strathclyde was indeed Briton, or Welsh. It had some bits in what is now Scotland, but was mostly centred in Cumbria.

[Osweo]

Strathclyde was indeed Briton, or Welsh. It had some bits in what is now Scotland, but was mostly centred in Cumbria.

Strathclyde, amazingly ;) was the strath, or valley, of the river Clyde. Dumbarton - the Dun of the Britons - was its fortress, and Lanarkshire was its heartland.

'Cumbria' is just any area with Welshmen in. Northumbrians used it for Strathclyde in particular, and the Cambrophone North in general. Cumberland is just that bit that was absorbed into England at a particular date. 'Cumbria' is a 1974 abomination of the bureaucrat's red pencil.

[Wulfhere]

Strathclyde, amazingly ;) was the strath, or valley, of the river Clyde. Dumbarton - the Dun of the Britons - was its fortress, and Lanarkshire was its heartland.

'Cumbria' is just any area with Welshmen in. Northumbrians used it for Strathclyde in particular, and the Cambrophone North in general. Cumberland is just that bit that was absorbed into England at a particular date. 'Cumbria' is a 1974 abomination of the bureaucrat's red pencil.

This is true, of course, but Carlisle was its capital. Indeed, it functioned as the capital of Scotland for a short time.

[Graham]

Strathclyde, amazingly ;) was the strath, or valley, of the river Clyde. Dumbarton - the Dun of the Britons - was its fortress, and Lanarkshire was its heartland.

'Cumbria' is just any area with Welshmen in. Northumbrians used it for Strathclyde in particular, and the Cambrophone North in general. Cumberland is just that bit that was absorbed into England at a particular date. 'Cumbria' is a 1974 abomination of the bureaucrat's red pencil.

We have a a River Avon, Avon gorge and there's also a Strathavon. Up in Aberdeenshire there's a River Ythan.

[Osweo]

This is true, of course, but Carlisle was its capital. Indeed, it functioned as the capital of Scotland for a short time.

Carlisle was important during the brief floruit of Rheged, but even that ephemeral kingdom didn't have just one formal capital. The court moved around, and also stopped at Leece, Crosby Ravensworth, Penrith, and other sites.

Later brief stints as capital of a puppet state are chronologically beyond the bounds of matters Cumbrian.

[Wulfhere]

Carlisle was important during the brief floruit of Rheged, but even that ephemeral kingdom didn't have just one formal capital. The court moved around, and also stopped at Leece, Crosby Ravensworth, Penrith, and other sites.

Later brief stints as capital of a puppet state are chronologically beyond the bounds of matters Cumbrian.

The point being, though, that Strathclyde as a kingdom stretched down into what is now Cumbria, and indeed further south still, and for a time, was centred on the Carlisle area.

[SaxonCeorl]

Learn how to fight like us Anglo Saxons for a start.:cool:

Yeah, the Anglo Saxons don't eff around.

t8jmRFZQyUI

[Osweo]

The point being, though, that Strathclyde as a kingdom stretched down into what is now Cumbria, and indeed further south still, and for a time, was centred on the Carlisle area.

Can you give me details of this?

There's a bit of a mini Dark Age for the North West in the 800s to 900s, and supposed expansions of Strathclyde are far less solidly supported by evidence than many think. I cringe when I see maps of the country drawn for that time...

[Wulfhere]

Can you give me details of this?

There's a bit of a mini Dark Age for the North West in the 800s to 900s, and supposed expansions of Strathclyde are far less solidly supported by evidence than many think. I cringe when I see maps of the country drawn for that time...

Yes, I'll see what I can find - tomorrow. There's also an association with St. Patrick, I seem to recall, who was supposedly born near Carlisle.

[Wulfhere]

The Mammoth Book of British Kings and Queens, Mike Ashley (1998). This is a massive work, with biographies of every single monarch who ever reigned anywhere in Great Britain. The map of Strathclyde on p.184 stretches all the way down into Cumberland (though not Westmoreland), but doesn't include Argyll.

The first king listed, Ceretic, seems to have had a connection with North Wales too, so it's possible that his area of influence extended all the way down the north-west coast. This was probably the 450s, and his (supposed) ancestors all had Roman names, implying a provincial governorship. Carlisle would have been one of his major centres of power, though not the only one. He also, famously, received a letter from St. Patrick complaining about his practice of raiding Ireland and capturing its people as slaves to sell to the Picts - implying that he controlled Irish Sea. It is not recorded if he responded, and Patrick wrote again. Later, Ceretic was transformed into a fox and ran away, or whatever this might actually mean in historical terms. His successors reigned over a much smaller area, but still including Carlisle.

[Osweo]

The Mammoth Book of British Kings and Queens, Mike Ashley (1998). This is a massive work, with biographies of every single monarch who ever reigned anywhere in Great Britain. The map of Strathclyde on p.184 stretches all the way down into Cumberland (though not Westmoreland), but doesn't include Argyll.
Ah now. I have this book, and it's very good to flip through for rough ideas of dates and successions. It is not incredibly academic, though. Ashley never shows HOW he came to think what he thinks. I read thru, and occasionally can see what other books Ashley's been influenced by, and what theories and hypotheses he has taken as as good as fact. He's done a great job, sure, bundling so much info into one book, but he's not very reliable in many parts.


The first king listed, Ceretic, seems to have had a connection with North Wales too, so it's possible that his area of influence extended all the way down the north-west coast. This was probably the 450s, and his (supposed) ancestors all had Roman names, implying a provincial governorship.
Hypothesis upon hypothesis, so that the final edifice creaks and teeters like hell!

What is the North Wales link apart from the Cunedda plantation?

Cunedda was of the Lothians, as far as we can make out. Of Manau Gododdin, which would have him from round Clackmannan at the head of the Firth of Forth. Strathclyde is quite a different zone.

Roman Britain was divided into lots of small civitates, into which it may have crumbled once the central power left. There's the added complicating factor of the vestiges of the separate military command providing an alternative embryo for the new statelets, but there's plenty of indication that we need to be envisaging more of a patchwork than these big 'governorships' proposed.


Carlisle would have been one of his major centres of power, though not the only one.
It's a long way from Dumbarton or Clackmannan.
Later on, we see Carlisle associated with the Rheged power, which is quite separate from the Strathclyde one. The dynastic pedigrees don't even join up. The pedigrees DO, however, link Rheged in with York, which tells us unsurprisingly, that the military network of Eboracum - Luguvalium remained in force for a while. Stuff BEYOND the Wall is another matter. Ceretic's ancestors seem to have been semi-independent vassals of the regime to the south, managing a buffer region for them.

He also, famously, received a letter from St. Patrick complaining about his practice of raiding Ireland and capturing its people as slaves to sell to the Picts - implying that he controlled Irish Sea. It is not recorded if he responded, and Patrick wrote again. Later, Ceretic was transformed into a fox and ran away, or whatever this might actually mean in historical terms. His successors reigned over a much smaller area, but still including Carlisle.
There's far too much supposition here. There were other Ceretics around in the general period in question. Ability to launch the odd raiding party does not equate to 'control of the Irish Sea'. Patrick is notoriously vague about geography, too.

[Wulfhere]

Ah now. I have this book, and it's very good to flip through for rough ideas of dates and successions. It is not incredibly academic, though. Ashley never shows HOW he came to think what he thinks. I read thru, and occasionally can see what other books Ashley's been influenced by, and what theories and hypotheses he has taken as as good as fact. He's done a great job, sure, bundling so much info into one book, but he's not very reliable in many parts.


Hypothesis upon hypothesis, so that the final edifice creaks and teeters like hell!

What is the North Wales link apart from the Cunedda plantation?

Cunedda was of the Lothians, as far as we can make out. Of Manau Gododdin, which would have him from round Clackmannan at the head of the Firth of Forth. Strathclyde is quite a different zone.

Roman Britain was divided into lots of small civitates, into which it may have crumbled once the central power left. There's the added complicating factor of the vestiges of the separate military command providing an alternative embryo for the new statelets, but there's plenty of indication that we need to be envisaging more of a patchwork than these big 'governorships' proposed.

It's a long way from Dumbarton or Clackmannan.
Later on, we see Carlisle associated with the Rheged power, which is quite separate from the Strathclyde one. The dynastic pedigrees don't even join up. The pedigrees DO, however, link Rheged in with York, which tells us unsurprisingly, that the military network of Eboracum - Luguvalium remained in force for a while. Stuff BEYOND the Wall is another matter. Ceretic's ancestors seem to have been semi-independent vassals of the regime to the south, managing a buffer region for them.

There's far too much supposition here. There were other Ceretics around in the general period in question. Ability to launch the odd raiding party does not equate to 'control of the Irish Sea'. Patrick is notoriously vague about geography, too.

Well, it was the Dark Ages. Mike Ashley is like the Nennius of modern times, don't you think? Making a big pile of everything he finds.

[Johnston]

One of the capitals of Rheged was Catterick... :) Anyway, why are we worrying about the Britons? They were taken care of long ago! ;)

[Osweo]

Well, it was the Dark Ages. Mike Ashley is like the Nennius of modern times, don't you think? Making a big pile of everything he finds.
Hmmm, good allusion (Nennius actually said that, for the benefit of those who haven't read him!), but Ashley tries more to synthesise, and so is more at risk of seriously distorting matters. It's a pain in the arse untangling the webs he's woven, and impossible to find the sources. :(

One of the capitals of Rheged was Catterick... :)
More exaggerated speculation. :tsk:

[Johnston]

Hmmm, good allusion (Nennius actually said that, for the benefit of those who haven't read him!), but Ashley tries more to synthesise, and so is more at risk of seriously distorting matters. It's a pain in the arse untangling the webs he's woven, and impossible to find the sources. :(

More exaggerated speculation. :tsk:http://books.google.com/books?id=mxxwmg48bFgC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=catterick+rheged&source=bl&ots=7eD8In2Cq7&sig=r2eDVEtJD1cL1oVbBjpdjvN0-qY&hl=en&ei=0wReTorWE9G1twfIpoSmCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=catterick%20rheged&f=false

Of course, only agree to that which suits you...I don't care either way. ;)

[Osweo]

http://books.google.com/books?id=mxxwmg48bFgC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=catterick+rheged&source=bl&ots=7eD8In2Cq7&sig=r2eDVEtJD1cL1oVbBjpdjvN0-qY&hl=en&ei=0wReTorWE9G1twfIpoSmCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=catterick%20rheged&f=false

Of course, only agree to that which suits you...I don't care either way. ;)
'Ruler of Catraeth' rather. To make a 'capital' of this poetic title is absurd.

[Johnston]

'Ruler of Catraeth' rather. To make a 'capital' of this poetic title is absurd.Why does it bother you one way or the other what these people think? Are you afraid the Welsh are trying to make a run for revanchism?:confused:

[Osweo]

Why does it bother you one way or the other what these people think? Are you afraid the Welsh are trying to make a run for revanchism?:confused:

What's that got to do with anything?

More to the point, what's 90% of your posts to do with anything?

What the fuck is that signature gif for, and how does it bear any relation to yourself!?

Why is a Yank calling himself an 'English rapist' below his username? Have you ever heard of taste? :ohwell:

[Johnston]

What's that got to do with anything?

More to the point, what's 90% of your posts to do with anything?

What the fuck is that signature gif for, and how does it bear any relation to yourself!?

Why is a Yank calling himself an 'English rapist' below his username? Have you ever heard of taste? :ohwell:Thank you for your usual abuse. You are a broken record yourself, and why should I ask what motivates you?:rolleyes2:

Are you the universal judge of Wulfhere and myself? You bear particular animosity to both of us. Why not fap to your avatar and leave us alone?

[Bridie]

Thank you for your usual abuse. You really did deserve it. What an idiotic thing to write under your username. You can expect these things to influence how people respond to you.

[Johnston]

You really did deserve it. What an idiotic thing to write under your username. You can expect these things to influence how people respond to you.Osweo hates me anyway, and likes Wulfhere not much better. Hey Mary, I am only encouraging you to hate according to your preferred prejudice. You hate the English and nothing/nobody will change that. Why not indulge your fantasy? You cannot be convinced in the decent qualities in the non-Celtic elements in the UK, so do not blame me. It is something you have to figure out in some soul searching.

[Bridie]

Hey Mary, I am only encouraging you to hate according to your preferred prejudice. You hate the English and nothing/nobody will change that. Why not indulge your fantasy? You cannot be convinced in the decent qualities in the non-Celtic elements in the UK, so do not blame me. It is something you have to figure out in some soul searching.I have no idea of what you're on about. You don't know me.

[Osweo]

Wtf, Mary is a good friend, and Wulfhere ... has to be judged as his own specific case on his own specific terms... ;) He's funny sometimes, and not quite so crazy as he seems... :D ;)

[_______]

Osweo hates me anyway, and likes Wulfhere not much better. Hey Mary, I am only encouraging you to hate according to your preferred prejudice. You hate the English and nothing/nobody will change that. Why not indulge your fantasy? You cannot be convinced in the decent qualities in the non-Celtic elements in the UK, so do not blame me. It is something you have to figure out in some soul searching.

mary does not hate the english :D

[Bridie]

mary does not hate the english :DIf I did it would be self-hatred since English blood runs through my veins. :cool2:

[Johnston]

I have no idea of what you're on about. You don't know me.I love seeing you siding with Sorcha/Trig's meta-ethnic sectarianism about the Protestant Germanics and how they have been horrible for Celts. Let me be the worst. I'll be the whipping boy, if you will.


mary does not hate the english :DProve it. Tradwitch does have an irrational dislike for the "evil" English (oh poor Celts!), even though he admits he is at least part English. Byrnecres certainly takes it for granted in relations with the Hispanic invasion on our southern borders, even while calling herself a "WASP", and this is just wrong for any reasonable preservationist who has accepted elements of their heritage as belonging to them. It is like being a "self-hating Jew", or "White guilt". This is not rocket science.

[Graham]

Damn Pommies! :P. Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that Johnston's doolally mad. Might be a slight guess though. :rolleyes:

[Amapola]

I love seeing you siding with Sorcha/Trig's meta-ethnic sectarianism about the Protestant Germanics and how they have been horrible for Celts. Let me be the worst. I'll be the whipping boy, if you will.

Dearie me! Protestants won't be very happy to see now the accusation of oppressing Celts being applied to them :D

I am a Germanic protestant who has been soooooooo naughty to celts, Good lord, it sounds surrealist. I will try to find out what Celtiberian protestants did to my turdetani, damn! :mad:

[Bridie]

I love seeing you siding with Sorcha/Trig's meta-ethnic sectarianism about the Protestant Germanics and how they have been horrible for Celts. Let me be the worst. I'll be the whipping boy, if you will.

Prove it. Tradwitch does have an irrational dislike for the "evil" English (oh poor Celts!), even though he admits he is at least part English. Byrnecres certainly takes it for granted in relations with the Hispanic invasion on our southern borders, even while calling herself a "WASP", and this is just wrong for any reasonable preservationist who has accepted elements of their heritage as belonging to them. It is like being a "self-hating Jew", or "White guilt". This is not rocket science.
I don't take all of that "Germanic" and "Celtic" rubbish seriously. The English are just English, as far as I'm concerned. The Scottish are Scottish, the Welsh are Welsh and the Irish are Irish. England is Germanic in as far as the English language is technically classed as Germanic, but that's about it. Same could be said for other English speaking countries in the Brit Isles.

As far as prods go, I'm quite fond of the Anglicans, but I find all the others to be screwy.

[Johnston]

Damn Pommies! :P. Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that Johnston's doolally mad. Might be a slight guess though. :rolleyes:Hey tulip! Scots aren't bad. Just having a bit of fun, you know?:thumb001:


Dearie me! Protestants won't be very happy to see now the accusation of oppressing Celts being applied to them :D

I am a Germanic protestant who has been soooooooo naughty to celts, Good lord, it sounds surrealist. I will try to find out what Celtiberian protestants did to my turdetani, damn! :mad:Ah, it gets very old, very quick. BTW, the Navarrese were certainly victims of the Counter-Reformation, no less so than the Cathars were annihilated. I'm not in any way ethnically or religiously related to either. But, if you wish to stomp on people you like, and condemn others for doing their stomping, it is a matter of glass houses and thrown stones.:rolleyes:

[The Ripper]

http://troll.me/images/idiot-gaston/what-is-this-i-dont-even.jpg

[Johnston]

Wtf, Mary is a good friend, and Wulfhere ... has to be judged as his own specific case on his own specific terms... ;) He's funny sometimes, and not quite so crazy as he seems... :D ;)There is not one way you will not isolate me to be the worst of your pathetic OCD fixations. Enough!:)


I don't take all of that "Germanic" and "Celtic" rubbish seriously. The English are just English, as far as I'm concerned. England is Germanic in as far as the English language is technically classed as Germanic, but that's about it.

As far as prods go, I'm quite fond of the Anglicans, but I find all the others to be screwy.Just curious...why do you have Spain on your profile?:confused:

[Jack B]

Just curious...why do you have Spain on your profile?:confused:

Why do you have Scotland on your profile?

[Bridie]

Just curious...why do you have Spain on your profile?:confused:
I'm marrying a Spanish man and will be calling Spain home very soon.

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm marrying a Spanish man and will be calling Spain home very soon.
In the midst of this recession ? You're a brave woman. :thumb001:

[Argyll]

Congrats mary!!! There are some aspects that I like the english, but over all, i'm not too fond of them. At least the evil ones.

[Hess]

I'm marrying a Spanish man and will be calling Spain home very soon.

And I wondered why you're so defensive of Spain all the time :coffee:

[Bridie]

In the midst of this recession ? You're a brave woman. :thumb001:Must be the Celtic blood in me. :D :p Or is it Germanic? :icon_wink:

[The Ripper]

Must be the Celtic blood in me. :D :p Or is it Germanic? :icon_wink:

The Germanic in you drove the Celtic into the arms of a Spaniard.

[Johnston]

Why do you have Scotland on your profile?Because it's in the family, quite near in fact. It is a natural consequence of having lived near the Scots, and the King of Scots claiming to be your Earl, like the King of England claiming to be Duke, of the Normans. My family is closer to the Middle Marches but we have Western Marches names. I won't get into the private details, sorry.


I'm marrying a Spanish man and will be calling Spain home very soon.His name would not happen to be von Habsburg, would it?:p



In the midst of this recession ? You're a brave woman. :thumb001:There is always Barcelona.:D

[Johnston]

Congrats mary!!! There are some aspects that I like the english, but over all, i'm not too fond of them. At least the evil ones.See what I mean?!:lightbul::rolleyes:


And I wondered why you're so defensive of Spain all the time :coffee:Yup.


Must be the Celtic blood in me. :D :p Or is it Germanic? :icon_wink:Depends on the meta-ethnic gripe or fantasy.


The Germanic in you drove the Celtic into the arms of a Spaniard.It could go either way, and that's at least better than Tradwitch's sexual preference.:confused:

[_______]

Congrats mary!!! There are some aspects that I like the english, but over all, i'm not too fond of them. At least the evil ones.

we're all evil, don'tcha know? :P

[Jack B]

Because it's in the family, quite near in fact. It is a natural consequence of having lived near the Scots, and the King of Scots claiming to be your Earl, like the King of England claiming to be Duke, of the Normans. My family is closer to the Middle Marches but we have Western Marches names. I won't get into the private details, sorry.

Ah yes, like all good "English rapist of Scots" from America.

[Johnston]

Ah yes, like all good "English rapist of Scots" from America.It's not that long ago really. Maybe you profess to be a pure Celt, without any foreign dilution? Not even Norman, right?:wink

Don't you know I was being tongue-in-cheek? I was indulging the anti-Germanic fantasy by the Celtofascists that freak out sometimes here.

[Jack B]

Maybe you profess to be a pure Celt, without any foreign dilution? Not even Norman, right?:wink

http://transitionculture.org/wp-content/uploads/strawman1.jpg

:thumb001:

[Argyll]

Celts are superior :D i'm not being a hypocrite, I don't mind having english blood, but I prefer to be with the great majority of celtic blood.

[Treffie]

Celts are superior :D i'm not being a hypocrite, I don't mind having english blood, but I prefer to be with the great majority of celtic blood.

Some `Celts` I know are the biggest assholes you'll ever wish to meet.

[Argyll]

Oh, I don't doubt it, lol. Every culture has cunts.

[Osweo]

Congrats mary!!! There are some aspects that I like the english, but over all, i'm not too fond of them. At least the evil ones.

Damn. Got me on both counts. :cry2

Oh and Johnston, .....
...

:suomut:

...


oh, never mind. :coffee:

[JamesBond007]

What are you on about? The Lowland Scots are not Celtic because the Gaels never reached there or settled there. The population is Anglo-Saxon, and have been speaking English long before there was ever a Scotland.

Celtic culture (i.e. language) does exist in parts of Scotland - remote islands in the west - but these have nothing in common with the Lowlands, and indeed, the Scottish state often tried to suppress the Gaelic elements. In short, whatever you think you know, Scotland is not a Celtic country, though, like England, it has small pockets of Celts on the extreme western fringes.

All these witches you're talking about are from the Lowlands, they speak English, and they use ancient English terms such as Elphame.

*bump* *necromancing a thread*

Scots are still somewhat more Celtic than the English. To deny this is absurd.

It goes like this from most Germanic to least :

1.) English

2.) Mainland Scots

3.) Cornish

4.) Welsh

5.) Irish with the true Irish not 'plastic paddies' being the most Celtic.

I consider myself Scottish or at least mostly Scottish and I think my signature pretty much sums it up : I descend from two Germanic tribes Saxons and Franks mostly but lastly from Celts.

My signature sums it up quite nicely :

https://i.postimg.cc/rm8s8Lj5/sig.jpg