View Full Version : Croatian Eurogenes results
vbnetkhio
04-13-2020, 09:37 PM
I uploaded the Zagreb and B&H Croat academic samples to Gedmatch. I thought the "official" Eurogenes k13 Croatian average was caluclated from these samples, turns out it's probably just one person's result, not a proper average, just like the Serbian one.
here are the averages of the academic samples and the old one from Eurogenes k13:
.North_AtlanticBalticWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRed _SeaSouth_AsianEast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceania nNortheast_AfricanSub-Saharan
Eurogenes_official_average27.2136.1114.547.949.441 .450.970.300.330.800.400.320.19
Zagreb28.8233.7414.877.4311.131.490.450.260.490.56 0.400.230.13
Herzegovina25.9933.1915.008.5313.271.110.950.050.7 20.740.450.000.00
Bosnia26.8532.1615.727.3013.751.740.730.210.560.28 0.520.100.09
Split25.9531.3916.338.2313.731.640.390.350.520.560 .560.220.13
Zagreb+Bosnia+Herz+Split26.9032.6215.487.8712.971. 490.630.220.570.530.480.140.09
ZF3039608Croat_Bosnia_1
DZ9261363Croat_Bosnia_12
LM6695156Croat_Bosnia_12_2
HA6762284Croat_Bosnia_16
JK5425682Croat_Bosnia_19
XV6261662Croat_Bosnia_6
FJ1838930Croat_Croatia_133
FA7708544Croat_Croatia_140
KQ4978920Croat_Croatia_141
GT3633066Croat_Croatia_142
KL2579480Croat_Croatia_198
CA9512826Croat_Croatia_26
QF3935386Croat_Croatia_302
SB9020540Croat_Croatia_305
MR9434030Croat_Croatia_312
SV1626782Croat_Croatia_344
CX2048211Croat_Croatia_43
NA2951902Croat_Croatia_432_outlier
ZA6592572Croat_Croatia_53
QQ6973072Croat_Herzegovina_1
EK3222333Croat_Herzegovina_11
BT7536017Croat_Herzegovina_13
PN8942085Croat_Herzegovina_20
ZA3726481Croat_Herzegovina_8
BZ1292358Croatian_Split_CRO103
KF7635766Croatian_Split_CRO107
CK9480635Croatian_Split_CRO153
GL4082504Croatian_Split_CRO31
ZB5145703Croatian_Split_CRO41
EF2976947Croatian_Split_CRO47
SR9089754Croatian_Split_CRO48
BV3010803Croatian_Split_CRO53
NK7287400Croatian_Split_CRO66
CN7368883Croatian_Split_CRO93
vbnetkhio
04-13-2020, 09:52 PM
individual results
.North_AtlanticBalticWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRed _SeaSouth_AsianEast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceania nNortheast_AfricanSub-Saharan
Croatian_Split_CRO10323.4632.4517.068.6610.155.570 .93000.061.6500
Croatian_Split_CRO10725.0134.0412.978.4715.252.390 01.2500.6200
Croatian_Split_CRO1532927.5717.174.1616.371.8700.4 80.811.1400.680.73
Croatian_Split_CRO3131.5930.2114.615.6914.591.410. 93000.5500.410
Croatian_Split_CRO4124.3134.4115.559.7413.140.3100 01.480.240.810
Croatian_Split_CRO4729.5232.0819.656.488.520.7300. 750.610.940.7100
Croatian_Split_CRO4825.5528.7616.98.5516.820.970.9 300.1801.3400
Croatian_Split_CRO5325.0331.0619.2312.697.890.641. 1400.810.460.770.280
Croatian_Split_CRO6620.0430.2114.2111.2819.052.020 1.490.460.950.300
Croatian_Split_CRO9325.9733.1115.966.615.560.4600. 741.060000.55
Split25.9531.3916.338.2313.731.640.390.350.520.560 .560.220.13
cro_bos_125.9530.0316.856.0616.042.051.20.160.210. 930.4800.04
cro_bos_1228.0235.6712.876.1813.861.250.280.490.17 0.070.80.350
cro_bos_1230.6933.8416.245.568.381.92.640.330.370. 02000.03
cro_bos_1625.673216.847.114.641.290.0701.5300.260. 260.34
cro_bos_1927.429.8514.539.9916.7200.0300.970.30.21 00
cro_bos_623.3931.5516.968.912.883.930.170.30.110.3 41.3500.12
Bosnia26.8532.1615.727.313.751.740.730.210.560.280 .520.10.09
cro_herz_126.233.7915.189.9112.180.74000.571.010.4 100
cro_herz_1129.8731.6913.837.4110.30.894.170.011.02 0.610.190.010
cro_herz_1327.5431.4216.457.8512.353.190.0301.040. 090.0200.01
cro_herz_2026.632.3513.597.1417.390.050.530.0801.7 10.5700
cro_herz_819.7436.6815.9610.3314.140.680.040.150.9 60.271.0500
Herzegovina25.9933.19158.5313.271.110.950.050.720. 740.4500
Croat_Croatia_2626.3834.9115.0510.927.31.222.57001 .030.160.460
Croat_Croatia_4331.735.3415.685.48.092.1900.740.45 00.4100
Croat_Croatia_5328.8437.0412.766.5511.151.98000.60 .5300.540
Croat_Croatia_13329.3633.1213.269.0812.2201.230.15 0.581.01000
Croat_Croatia_14029.4735.3614.866.7810.770.620.240 .4200.840.440.20
Croat_Croatia_14126.0832.8312.968.8614.642.1300.82 00.940.6600.08
Croat_Croatia_14226.0338.6913.156.0911.561.8201.03 000.9700.63
Croat_Croatia_19829.8528.7917.817.7511.362.19000.4 201.160.510.16
Croat_Croatia_30228.7332.2815.617.7313.560.420.100 .860000.68
Croat_Croatia_30531.1233.414.575.310.311.960.4201. 230.150.950.550
Croat_Croatia_31229.3234.7815.446.849.681.070.100. 91.3900.480
Croat_Croatia_34428.9428.3717.267.8912.892.260.680 0.890.81000
Zagreb28.8233.7414.877.4311.131.490.450.260.490.56 0.40.230.13
Nice, awesome work! I always knew official average was very off.
These averages need to be added to updated Vahaduo! Split and Bosnia are already there, If I'm not mistaken.
Old average should be deleted as it's useless.
My father's results, Croat as f..K :)
Distance to: Feiichy_Father
3.09213518 Croatia_average_academic
3.11486757 Croat_Zagreb
3.25670078 Szekely_Hungarian
3.50968660 Croat_Split
3.61921262 Croat_Bosnia
3.72561908 Serbian_Bosnia
3.73799411 HungarianTA
3.94295561 Slovenian
3.95914132 Croat_Herzegovina
3.97451884 South_Croat_average
4.16702532 Moldova_North
4.23561094 Hungarian_New
4.78144330 Bosniak_new_average
5.02407205 Bosniak_Tuzla
5.06943784 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
5.15425352 Bosnian
5.65732269 Csango_Gymes
5.71149718 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
5.71721086 South_Croat_Morlach_Cluster
5.78747032 Serbian_new
5.88855670 Moldavian
6.23608852 Serb_Croatia
6.53415641 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
6.84916053 Hungarian_East
7.19919440 Kaykavian_Croatian
Target: Feiichy_Father
Distance: 1.7272% / 1.72718184 | ADC: 0.25x
72.0 Croat_Zagreb
11.2 Romanian_Transylvania
10.2 Hungarian_Transdanubia
4.0 Romanian_Muntenia
2.0 Bosniak_Tuzla
0.6 Dai
Target: Feiichy_Father
Distance: 2.2541% / 2.25413607 | ADC: 0.5x
32.6 Croat_Split
25.4 Hungarian_New
20.8 Croat_Zagreb
19.8 Croatia_average_academic
1.4 Hungarian_Transdanubia
Target: Feiichy_Father
Distance: 2.5212% / 2.52123063 | ADC: 1x
51.0 Croatia_average_academic
32.2 Croat_Zagreb
16.8 HungarianTA
vbnetkhio
04-13-2020, 10:12 PM
Split and Bosnia are already there, If I'm not mistaken.
Split is, the Bosnian one is just from 4 samples from both Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Impaler
04-13-2020, 10:19 PM
Interesting this one, 4.17% South Asian.
cro_herz_11,29.87,31.69,13.83,7.41,10.3,0.89,4.17, 0.01,1.02,0.61,0.19,0.01,0
Target: cro_herz_11
Distance: 0.8082% / 0.80817057 | ADC: 0.25x
49.0 Croat_Bosnia
19.6 Hungarian_East
12.4 Kaykavian_Croatian
9.0 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.2 Hungarian_New
2.0 Chamar
0.8 Kol
Distance to: cro_herz_11
3.61527316 HungarianTA
3.63381342 Hungarian_New
3.70149041 Croat_Bosnia
4.39564871 Slovenian
5.48140493 Hungarian_East
5.60564002 Kaykavian_Croatian
5.66497132 Szekely
5.72608942 Csango_Gymes
6.28194237 Croatian
6.43932450 Croat_Split
Split is, the Bosnian one is just from 4 samples from both Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Thanks, I now saved real Bosnia average, will send these to Lukas and maybe will add to academic average Kajkavian average?
I don't think Slavic and Morlach cluster need to be added as Split average is basically between them.
What about Bosnian Serb average, how many samples and from where, it is good? It's very Croat like.
Interesting this one, 4.17% South Asian.
cro_herz_11,29.87,31.69,13.83,7.41,10.3,0.89,4.17, 0.01,1.02,0.61,0.19,0.01,0
Target: cro_herz_11
Distance: 0.8082% / 0.80817057 | ADC: 0.25x
49.0 Croat_Bosnia
19.6 Hungarian_East
12.4 Kaykavian_Croatian
9.0 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.2 Hungarian_New
2.0 Chamar
0.8 Kol
Distance to: cro_herz_11
3.61527316 HungarianTA
3.63381342 Hungarian_New
3.70149041 Croat_Bosnia
4.39564871 Slovenian
5.48140493 Hungarian_East
5.60564002 Kaykavian_Croatian
5.66497132 Szekely
5.72608942 Csango_Gymes
6.28194237 Croatian
6.43932450 Croat_Split
Maybe minor Gypsy or rather steppe input? His other values are very usual.
Good stuff!
Interesting this one, 4.17% South Asian.
cro_herz_11,29.87,31.69,13.83,7.41,10.3,0.89,4.17, 0.01,1.02,0.61,0.19,0.01,0
Target: cro_herz_11
Distance: 0.8082% / 0.80817057 | ADC: 0.25x
49.0 Croat_Bosnia
19.6 Hungarian_East
12.4 Kaykavian_Croatian
9.0 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.2 Hungarian_New
2.0 Chamar
0.8 Kol
Distance to: cro_herz_11
3.61527316 HungarianTA
3.63381342 Hungarian_New
3.70149041 Croat_Bosnia
4.39564871 Slovenian
5.48140493 Hungarian_East
5.60564002 Kaykavian_Croatian
5.66497132 Szekely
5.72608942 Csango_Gymes
6.28194237 Croatian
6.43932450 Croat_Split
Romani people exist in Croatia too.
Good stuff!
Romani people exist in Croatia too.
His east med/west asian/red sea are not elevated, and his baltic/na is quite regular too.
na is even above average. So I am not sure what is ancestry of this person.
He/she is from Herzegovina btw, that's another country :)
His east med/west asian/red sea are not elevated, and his baltic/na is quite regular too.
na is even above average. So I am not sure what is ancestry of this person.
He/she is from Herzegovina btw, that's another country :)
Maybe not Romani. Dodecad/Harappa need to be checked in such instances.
I think adding Kajkavian/NW average to this one (Zagreb, Split; BiH) will make it more realistic.
Because all these are southern Croat, Zagreb average is pretty similar to them too and lot of people there have southern roots.
Basically the Baltic ranges from 28 to 38 percent.
vbnetkhio
04-13-2020, 10:30 PM
Interesting this one, 4.17% South Asian.
cro_herz_11,29.87,31.69,13.83,7.41,10.3,0.89,4.17, 0.01,1.02,0.61,0.19,0.01,0
Target: cro_herz_11
Distance: 0.8082% / 0.80817057 | ADC: 0.25x
49.0 Croat_Bosnia
19.6 Hungarian_East
12.4 Kaykavian_Croatian
9.0 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.2 Hungarian_New
2.0 Chamar
0.8 Kol
Distance to: cro_herz_11
3.61527316 HungarianTA
3.63381342 Hungarian_New
3.70149041 Croat_Bosnia
4.39564871 Slovenian
5.48140493 Hungarian_East
5.60564002 Kaykavian_Croatian
5.66497132 Szekely
5.72608942 Csango_Gymes
6.28194237 Croatian
6.43932450 Croat_Split
He is from Mostar and belongs to haplogroup "Q1d", can't find anything about it, i guess it's this one: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Z5902/
Maybe not Romani. Dodecad/Harappa need to be checked in such instances.
Could be regular Herz. Croat who just happened to inherit weirdly high south asian trough recombination. Checking matches would be beneficial if we had kit of this sample.
He is from Mostar and belongs to haplogroup "Q1d", can't find anything about it, i guess it's this one: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Z5902/
Maybe some Turkic/central asian input. He scores some Siberian as well unlike others in that average.
New Croatian average :thumb001:
Distance to: Croat_new
1.50096636 Croat_Zagreb
1.64705798 Szekely_Hungarian
1.71213317 Croatia_average_academic
2.58309891 Croat_Bosnia
2.60290223 Croat_Herzegovina
2.68391505 Moldova_North
2.91807942 Serbian_Bosnia
2.95854694 Croat_Split
3.01681698 Slovenian
3.47630551 HungarianTA
3.47850543 Bosniak_Tuzla
4.14558802 Hungarian_New
4.23039825 Bosniak_Sarajevo_academic
4.27720703 Bosniak_new_average
4.35250503 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
4.49822187 Moldavian
4.84689591 Csango_Gymes
5.66675000 Serbian_new
5.69505926 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
6.05360223 Serb_Croatia
6.25231157 Romanian_Botosani
6.46212813 Hungarian_East
6.66629582 Kaykavian_Croatian
6.86357778 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
6.89598241 Slovak
vbnetkhio
04-13-2020, 10:45 PM
Thanks, I now saved real Bosnia average, will send these to Lukas and maybe will add to academic average Kajkavian average?
I don't think Slavic and Morlach cluster need to be added as Split average is basically between them.
What about Bosnian Serb average, how many samples and from where, it is good? It's very Croat like.
I don't really notice that, it's almost identical to other Serbian averages. anyway it's just 4 samples from Doboj and Banja Luka. i'll make new regional Serbian avreages these days.
^^^^
do you think these are good, than?
I am more and more thinking to delete Slavic and Morlach cluster, both are cherrypicked specific types of results, just like Bosniak Tuzla is cherrypicked specific average.
Croatia_average_academic,26.90,32.62,15.48,7.87,12 .97,1.49,0.63,0.22,0.57,0.53,0.48,0.14,0.09
Croat_Herzegovina,25.99,33.19,15.00,8.53,13.27,1.1 1,0.95,0.05,0.72,0.74,0.45,0.00,0.00
Croat_Zagreb,28.82,33.74,14.87,7.43,11.13,1.49,0.4 5,0.26,0.49,0.56,0.40,0.23,0.13
Croat_Bosnia,26.85,32.16,15.72,7.30,13.75,1.74,0.7 3,0.21,0.56,0.28,0.52,0.10,0.09
Croat_new,28.02,32.94,14.82,7.88,11.93,1.49,0.76,0 .32,0.47,0.66,0.43,0.11,0.08
This is how Serb_Bosnia scores btw, it's closer to Croats than to other Serb averages
Distance to: Serbian_Bosnia
0.89679290 South_Croat_average
0.95634068 Croat_Bosnia
1.15990840 Croat_Split
1.34892086 Croatia_average_academic
1.83059758 Bosniak_new_average
2.09002093 Croat_Herzegovina
2.31010898 Bosniak_Sarajevo_academic
2.66100310 Szekely_Hungarian
2.97378336 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
3.02765379 South_Croat_Morlach_Cluster
3.04522464 Serbian_new
3.15672100 Moldova_North
3.39412544 Serb_Croatia
4.17004646 Croat_Zagreb
4.23139900 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
4.73693862 Moldavian
4.76462354 Romanian_Botosani
4.99141137 Bosniak_Tuzla
5.02121873 Csango_Gymes
5.33755445 Croatian_new
5.34777874 HungarianTA
5.56654940 Slovenian
5.69452259 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
5.80700331 Serbian_Belgrade_academic
5.88880187 Romania_Moldavia_North
It's expected to be close to Bosniaks and BiH Croats though, that's natural.
Insuperable
04-13-2020, 11:01 PM
He is from Mostar and belongs to haplogroup "Q1d", can't find anything about it, i guess it's this one: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Z5902/
That Bosnian there could be either Croat Čotić or Serbs Stevanovic from Bijeljina and one Serb from Herzegovina going by those from Poreklo. Z5902 seems to be from Srilanka, and so far it's subbranch present only in B&H. That guy seems to be mixed with Gypsies, but is there such haplo recored in Gypsies?
My results
Distance to: Feiichy
4.75888632 Slovenian
4.84778300 Croat_Zagreb
4.99062120 Croat_new
5.15228105 HungarianTA
5.19911531 Hungarian_New
5.41770247 Moldova_North
5.68896300 Szekely_Hungarian
5.91028764 Croatia_average_academic
6.25105591 Moldavian
6.25642869 Croat_Split
6.35274744 Croat_Herzegovina
6.39701493 Kaykavian_Croatian
6.67552152 Serbian_Bosnia
6.78232261 Croat_Bosnia
6.81097644 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
6.85846193 Bosniak_Tuzla
6.94197378 Hungarian_East
7.36825624 Bosniak_new_average
7.43570441 Csango_Gymes
7.52299825 Bosniak_Sarajevo_academic
7.68909618 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
7.82170429 Slovak
8.18067234 Hungarian_Transdanubia
8.25642780 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
8.45331371 Serbian_new
Target: Feiichy
Distance: 2.5764% / 2.57636631 | ADC: 0.25x
78.4 Slovenian
9.2 East_German
6.6 North_Ossetian
5.0 Austrian
0.8 Serb_North-Macedonia
I calculated new average wrongly, here is correct one. Looks pretty decent and very close to average in first post.
Croat_new,28.02,32.94,14.82,7.88,11.93,1.49,0.76,0 .32,0.47,0.66,0.43,0.11,0.08
It includes Croat Zagreb, Split, Bosnia, Herzegovina and Kajkavian.
Father updated
2.61111087 Croat_new
3.09213518 Croatia_average_academic
3.11486757 Croat_Zagreb
3.25670078 Szekely_Hungarian
3.50968660 Croat_Split
3.61921262 Croat_Bosnia
3.72561908 Serbian_Bosnia
3.94295561 Slovenian
3.95914132 Croat_Herzegovina
4.16702532 Moldova_North
4.23561094 Hungarian_New
4.78144330 Bosniak_new_average
5.02407205 Bosniak_Tuzla
5.06943784 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
5.15425352 Bosniak_Sarajevo_academic
5.65732269 Csango_Gymes
5.78747032 Serbian_new
5.88855670 Moldavian
6.23608852 Serb_Croatia
6.53415641 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
6.84916053 Hungarian_East
7.19919440 Kaykavian_Croatian
7.27835146 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
7.46307577 Romanian_Botosani
7.69783086 Hungarian_Transdanubia
Former member Hrvoje (Croat-Slovene mix from Zagreb with distant Czech)
Distance to: Hrvoje
4.40794737 Hungarian_New
5.07342094 Kaykavian_Croatian
5.41980090 Slovenian
5.46547345 Croat_Zagreb
5.59995536 Croat_new
6.19056540 Szekely_Hungarian
6.21292202 Hungarian_East
6.57380407 Moldova_North
6.87064044 Croatia_average_academic
7.30249273 Croat_Herzegovina
7.31868158 Moldavian
7.34953060 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.43976478 Csango_Gymes
7.44476326 Croat_Split
7.51113174 Bosniak_Tuzla
7.67504424 Slovak
7.70490104 Croat_Bosnia
7.78729655 Serbian_Bosnia
7.78937738 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
8.11539894 Austrian
8.24016990 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
8.33054620 Bosniak_new_average
8.40792618 Bosniak_Sarajevo_academic
8.64273684 Czech
9.06840670 East_German
These samples need to be deleted in my opinion: Croatian, South_Croat_Morlach_cluster, South_Croat_Slavic_cluster, Bosniak_Tuzla, Croat_Bosnia (as it's mix of Bosnia and Herzegovina)
These added:
Croatia_average_academic,26.90,32.62,15.48,7.87,12 .97,1.49,0.63,0.22,0.57,0.53,0.48,0.14,0.09
Croat_Herzegovina,25.99,33.19,15.00,8.53,13.27,1.1 1,0.95,0.05,0.72,0.74,0.45,0.00,0.00
Croat_Zagreb,28.82,33.74,14.87,7.43,11.13,1.49,0.4 5,0.26,0.49,0.56,0.40,0.23,0.13
Croat_Bosnia,26.85,32.16,15.72,7.30,13.75,1.74,0.7 3,0.21,0.56,0.28,0.52,0.10,0.09
Croat_new,28.02,32.94,14.82,7.88,11.93,1.49,0.76,0 .32,0.47,0.66,0.43,0.11,0.08
Szekely also need replacing with Szekely_Hungarian I made, as I added to that average two full Szeklers Ion Basecul found, old average has just 2-3 people If I remember well.
Szekely_Hungarian,26.90,32.16,14.49,7.67,11.72,1.7 7,0.94,0.66,1.07,0.90,0.45,0.13,0.17
Bosnian needs to be renamed to Bosniak_Sarajevo_academic also.
Plus this Serb one added
Serbian_Belgrade_academic,24.42,28.12,17.06,9.06,1 7.09,1.48,0.45,0.36,0.73,0.56,0.54,0.1,0.04
HungarianTA should be removed, it's not needed when we have Hungarian_new made of old Hungarian academic samples + samples of TA Hungarians.
MoroLP
04-13-2020, 11:51 PM
Sincerely, I think it is wrong. I don't think that diaspora should be included in any national average. Croatian should represent Croatia only, otherwise only makes a mess. Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina belong to the population average of that country (Bosnian), and each costitutional group (Croat, Bosniak, Serb) should have own average to see whether are closer to other national averages without including them. Also what is the point to split Croats from BiH to those from Bosnia and those from Herzegovina, what's the difference? There's no sense then in having them in different national averages, having Bosnian national average etc.
Sincerely, I think it is wrong. I don't think that diaspora should be included in any national average. Croatian should represent Croatia only, otherwise only makes a mess. Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina belong to the population average of that country (Bosnian), and each costitutional group (Croat, Bosniak, Serb) should have own average to see whether are closer to other national averages without including them. There's no sense then in having them in different national averages, there's no sense in having Bosnian national average etc.
It's just a political border, southern Croats are far closer to BiH Croats than to north Croats by origin and DNA.
Bosnian average on Vahaduo here is made of Bosniaks from Sarajevo btw.
Plus most of south and east Croats have lot of ancestry from BiH, it's the same people.
MoroLP
04-14-2020, 12:02 AM
It is not only. All these political and ethnic borders are made up and changed, but we must respect them. Claiming one population group for another population average only due to ethnic identity which as such is controversial and contested for all of three of them, we should be more objective and neutral... also what's the point if we have South Croatian samples? As a Croat I don't expect to have in Croatian average Croats from BiH when they should be in Bosnian average. If the Bosnian average is made of only one costitutional group then it doesn't represent the country BiH nor the Bosnian region. Otherwise all this is a political-ethnic mess. For comparison we need clear national and regional averages, not a mixture of everything.
It is not only. All these political and ethnic borders are made up and changed, but claiming one population group to another population average only due to ethnic identity which as such is controversial and contested for all of three of them, we should be objective and neutral. As a Croat I don't expect to have in Croatian average Croats from BiH when they should be in Bosnian average. If the Bosnian average is made of only one costitutional group then it doesn't represent the country BiH nor the Bosnian region.
That's why there are regional averages. BiH Croats are Croats like any other and should be included in overall Croat average, it's ethnic average not country related one.
Just like Csango and Szekely are included in Hungarian average.
Most people don't have interest in some Bosnian average as it means nothing, it's just a country and not an ethnic group.
All 3 people in BiH are similar anyway.
Serb new average is made of Serbs from many regions/countries also, with western Serbs dominating.
Pribislav
04-14-2020, 12:09 AM
This is how Serb_Bosnia scores btw, it's closer to Croats than to other Serb averages
Distance to: Serbian_Bosnia
0.89679290 South_Croat_average
0.95634068 Croat_Bosnia
1.15990840 Croat_Split
1.34892086 Croatia_average_academic
1.83059758 Bosniak_new_average
2.09002093 Croat_Herzegovina
2.31010898 Bosniak_Sarajevo_academic
2.66100310 Szekely_Hungarian
2.97378336 Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina
3.02765379 South_Croat_Morlach_Cluster
3.04522464 Serbian_new
3.15672100 Moldova_North
3.39412544 Serb_Croatia
4.17004646 Croat_Zagreb
4.23139900 South_Croat_Slavic_Cluster
4.73693862 Moldavian
4.76462354 Romanian_Botosani
4.99141137 Bosniak_Tuzla
5.02121873 Csango_Gymes
5.33755445 Croatian_new
5.34777874 HungarianTA
5.56654940 Slovenian
5.69452259 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
5.80700331 Serbian_Belgrade_academic
5.88880187 Romania_Moldavia_North
It's expected to be close to Bosniaks and BiH Croats though, that's natural.
I have some results of Serbs from Bosnia.
Western Bosnia 97481
Western Bosnia 97482
Western Bosnia 97483
Western-eastern Bosnia mix 97484
Northeastern Bosnia 97486
And few others, but can't found currently.
MoroLP
04-14-2020, 12:10 AM
I think adding Kajkavian/NW average to this one (Zagreb, Split; BiH) will make it more realistic.
Because all these are southern Croat, Zagreb average is pretty similar to them too and lot of people there have southern roots.
It would be less Southern Croatian if excluded samples who are not from Croatia. If you wish, make separate Croatian averages, one for Croatia while the other with diaspora. That is only realistic and useful to trace regional origin for ind. samples.
It would be less Southern Croatian if excluded samples who are not from Croatia. If you wish, make a separate Croatian averages, one for Croatia while the other with diaspora. That is only realistic and useful to trace regional origin for ind. samples.
We need averages from places like Slavonia, Istria, Kvarner, Međimurje too.
So many regions are undersampled.
It would be less Southern Croatian if excluded samples who are not from Croatia. If you wish, make a separate Croatian averages, one for Croatia while the other with diaspora. That is only realistic and useful to trace regional origin for ind. samples.
Do you mean Croatia average should be based on Zagreb, Split and Kajkavian?
Croat_Bosnia on Vahaduo already includes both Bosnia and Herzegovina, so it's good average for BiH Croats put togheder.
MoroLP
04-14-2020, 12:18 AM
That's why there are regional averages. BiH Croats are Croats like any other and should be included in overall Croat average, it's ethnic average not country related one.
Just like Csango and Szekely are included in Hungarian average.
Most people don't have interest in some Bosnian average as it means nothing, it's just a country and not an ethnic group.
All 3 people in BiH are similar anyway.
Serb new average is made of Serbs from many regions/countries also, with western Serbs dominating.
Ethnicity is only making a confusion if we know how the identities spread and to trace a historical origin we should stick to regions. For a reason Serbs in Croatia and BiH are more northern shifted than Serbs in Serbia and if they dominate the Serbian average then that isn't realistic and reliable for comparisions neither from genetical neither from demographical viewpoint... that's the point about BiH, the three groups are all too similar and should make the Bosnian average which is composed of their averages. Croatian_Croatia and Serbian_Serbia national average are or northern or southern from it, they are different, at least they should be.
MoroLP
04-14-2020, 12:26 AM
Do you mean Croatia average should be based on Zagreb, Split and Kajkavian?
Croat_Bosnia on Vahaduo already includes both Bosnia and Herzegovina, so it's good average for BiH Croats put togheder.
Yes, we should have one Croatian average based on only samples from Croatia and second including the separate BiH Croat average... in the Croatian DNA Project & FTDNA probably can be found those from other regions... I already have three Istrian samples, then should be that Italian shifted guy, then there exist few with Y-DNA results who possibly done auDNA testing etc. What I saw from mine and other results, Istria is a mess, going from pro-Croatian and Serbian to Italian. I don't see what value we get from that region, but oh well, it's part of Western Croatia.
Yes, we should have one Croatian average based on only samples from Croatia and second including the separate BiH average... in the Croatian DNA Project & FTDNA probably can be found those from other regions.
I still see no point as Serbs will never do the same. For example it makes sense for Croatian Serbs to be grouped with other Serbs, not with Croats of Croatia.
Because than we can include all minorities in every country.
Dalmatia and Herzegovina are one unit in climate, geography, ethnography for example.
Bosnian Posavina is same as Slavonian Posavina.
Does it make sense to you to group Croat from for example Dubrovnik with one from Međimurje, but exclude Croat from Herzegovina 10 km from that town?
Average from Zagreb is very similar to one from Herzegovina for example, same Baltic score just ZG has higher North Atlantic.
You are aware how many people from Croatia proper are of recent or less recent BiH origin, right? Probably good part of samples given in Zagreb or Split are not pure Croats from Croatia.
So I see no sense in separate averages as there really is no big difference. Only NW Croats are different for now.
Yes, we should have one Croatian average based on only samples from Croatia and second including the separate BiH average... in the Croatian DNA Project & FTDNA probably can be found those from other regions... I already have three Istrian samples, then should be that Italian shifted guy, then there exist few with Y-DNA results who possibly done auDNA testing etc. What I saw from mine and other results, Istria is a mess.
It would be cool to have Istrian samples, please make thread about those you have, we are curious about them! :)
Well, not suprised Istria is historically very mixed. It's visible in linguistics too.
Dušan
04-14-2020, 09:04 AM
I have some results of Serbs from Bosnia.
Western Bosnia 97481
Western Bosnia 97482
Western Bosnia 97483
Western-eastern Bosnia mix 97484
Northeastern Bosnia 97486
And few others, but can't found currently.
These are real Serbian average, based on a lot more samples than previous Serbian_new and Serb_Croatia.
Krajina_Serb_average,24.71,31.76,16.79,8.22,14.62, 1.55,0.43,0.22,0.81,0.56,0.38,0.03,0.03
Serbia_Serb_average,24.88,30.08,16.50,8.73,16.21,1 .24,0.66,0.28,0.54,0.45,0.31,0.05,0.06
I asked Lukasz to insert it into updated K13 calculator.
He still didn't do it.
Pribislav
04-14-2020, 12:11 PM
These are real Serbian average, based on a lot more samples than previous Serbian_new and Serb_Croatia.
Krajina_Serb_average,24.71,31.76,16.79,8.22,14.62, 1.55,0.43,0.22,0.81,0.56,0.38,0.03,0.03
Serbia_Serb_average,24.88,30.08,16.50,8.73,16.21,1 .24,0.66,0.28,0.54,0.45,0.31,0.05,0.06
I asked Lukasz to insert it into updated K13 calculator.
He still didn't do it.
Yes, I know.
Your Krajina_Serb 24.71, 31.76, 16.79 etc. is only for Serbs from Croatia without Bosanska Krajina right?
Btw I got 3 new Krajina Serb results (with kits), one is from Lika (Marinko Vukovojac), one is from Kordun or Gorski Kotar (Milan Mamula), and one from East Slavonia (Branko Arsenić).
On SDP Mamula Serbs from Kordun are tested as I2-PH908, and those from Gorski Kotar as I2-Z17855.
Vukovojac is J2b1-M205.
Serbia Serb average need to be blended with academic BG averages to make it more realistic.
Serbia_Serb_average,24.88,30.08,16.50,8.73,16.21,1 .24,0.66,0.28,0.54,0.45,0.31,0.05,0.06
+
Serbian_Belgrade_academic,24.42,28.12,17.06,9.06,1 7.09,1.48,0.45,0.36,0.73,0.56,0.54,0.1,0.04
Than divide by 2
I will start collecting Croatian kits from ged and 23andme and emailing people so I can know their exact ancestry. Than I can add those kits to these few academics and make good averages.
Each kit will be added only after ancestry is confirmed, I will be doing no speculation, want to do it right.
Mvakis
04-14-2020, 12:49 PM
These are real Serbian average, based on a lot more samples than previous Serbian_new and Serb_Croatia.
Krajina_Serb_average,24.71,31.76,16.79,8.22,14.62, 1.55,0.43,0.22,0.81,0.56,0.38,0.03,0.03
Serbia_Serb_average,24.88,30.08,16.50,8.73,16.21,1 .24,0.66,0.28,0.54,0.45,0.31,0.05,0.06
I asked Lukasz to insert it into updated K13 calculator.
He still didn't do it.
Does Krajina one include HungryLion and his kits? Because he has no place in it nor can any kits sent from him be trusted.
MoroLP
04-14-2020, 01:39 PM
I still see no point as Serbs will never do the same. For example it makes sense for Croatian Serbs to be grouped with other Serbs, not with Croats of Croatia.
Because than we can include all minorities in every country.
Dalmatia and Herzegovina are one unit in climate, geography, ethnography for example.
Bosnian Posavina is same as Slavonian Posavina.
Does it make sense to you to group Croat from for example Dubrovnik with one from Međimurje, but exclude Croat from Herzegovina 10 km from that town?
Average from Zagreb is very similar to one from Herzegovina for example, same Baltic score just ZG has higher North Atlantic.
You are aware how many people from Croatia proper are of recent or less recent BiH origin, right? Probably good part of samples given in Zagreb or Split are not pure Croats from Croatia.
So I see no sense in separate averages as there really is no big difference. Only NW Croats are different for now.
It would be cool to have Istrian samples, please make thread about those you have, we are curious about them! :)
Well, not suprised Istria is historically very mixed. It's visible in linguistics too.
These are my main points:
1) I don't give a damn if Serbs will never do the same. If we know that some average is based on only one sample or is biased then we can ignore / remove from the source to get most accurate results for an analysis. Simple as that.
2) I didn't say that national average should include all the minorities and it is not necessary because we are dealing with ethno-nationalistic countries which dominant ethnic group makes the majority of population
3) Yes, the geographical proximity is excellent argument, and the fact there are not many Bosnian Croats which anyway are similar to Southern Croats, however, in terminological approach is problematic. Genetic studies on the Croats are primarily and mainly focused on Croatia, not the diaspora, and when someone thinks about Croatian average then it presumes that the average based only on Croatia and not other countries. Bosnian Croats are a regional population which belongs to the population of another country. I know that Zagreb and possibly other samples are not from specific Croatian region.
4) Exactly because of mixed and historically complex regions such as Istria we need accurate national and regional averages to trace regional ancestry. If I say that samples are ranging from Croatian to Serbian to Italian is because, as first, many villages really had different ethnic immigrants, as second, these averages are not made in a reliable manner and this thread as well proves it. Also the amount of "fun" depends on that, the more inaccurate averages the more fun, but nobody sane wants fun over accuracy and objectivity to trace ancestry.
5) If you want to have one Croatian average which will include all Croatian samples nevertheless the country, and are included only BiH Croats, fine, but then we have three groups of samples which are "southern" and similar (BiH, Split, Zagreb Croats) against only few samples which are "northern" (Zagreb, Kaykavian Croats). If want, for now, to make Croatian "more average" then we need to remove some samples and that should be of BiH Croats. So, as said, or we have one average which will include all samples or have two averages one of which will include diaspora.
6) I'm not that fond to share "sources" of my samples for now, especially not if the averages are not made in a reliable manner and don't have other samples, but could post some results. Will calculate now my father's result with new averages as already posted some on Forum.hr
These are my main points:
1) I don't give a damn if Serbs will never do the same. If we know that some average is based on only one sample or is biased then we can ignore / remove from the source to get most accurate results for an analysis. Simple as that.
2) I didn't say that national average should include all the minorities and it is not necessary because we are dealing with ethno-nationalistic countries which dominant ethnic group makes the majority of population
3) Yes, the geographical proximity is excellent argument, and the fact there are not many Bosnian Croats which anyway are similar to Southern Croats, however, in terminological approach is problematic. Genetic studies on the Croats are primarily and mainly focused on Croatia, not the diaspora, and when someone thinks about Croatian average then it presumes that the average based only on Croatia and not other countries. Bosnian Croats are a regional population which belongs to the population of another country. I know that Zagreb and possibly other samples are not from specific Croatian region.
4) Exactly because of mixed and historically complex regions such as Istria we need accurate national and regional averages to trace regional ancestry. If I say that samples are ranging from Croatian to Serbian to Italian is because, as first, many villages really had different ethnic immigrants, as second, these averages are not made in a reliable manner and this thread as well proves it. Also the amount of "fun" depends on that, the more inaccurate averages the more fun, but nobody sane wants fun over accuracy and objectivity to trace ancestry.
5) If you want to have one Croatian average which will include all Croatian samples nevertheless the country, and are included only BiH Croats, fine, but then we have three groups of samples which are "southern" and similar (BiH, Split, Zagreb Croats) against only few samples which are "northern" (Zagreb, Kaykavian Croats). If want, for now, to make Croatian "more average" then we need to remove some samples and that should be of BiH Croats. So, as said, or we have one average which will include all samples or have two averages one of which will include diaspora.
6) I'm not that fond to share "sources" of my samples for now, especially not if the averages are not made in a reliable manner and don't have other samples, but could post some results. Will calculate now my father's result with new averages as already posted some on Forum.hr
Look, I need help. I already started to message my connections on 23andme and will mail matches I find on gedmatch and conclude are Croats.
Most likely vast majority will not answer and I will get few replies.
So please do the same with your matches if it's possible.
Lastly, I don't see point if some people are not willing to share their kit results, they are not for me, but for all of us and to improve our averages.
I don't have any kits and every one we get with confirmed ancestry is a big step forward.
Compared to what Serbs or Moldovans have we have nothing.
I can make Croat_Croatia average out of Zagreb, Split and Kajkavian samples. Not that there will be any significant difference.
In fact, Split samples are more southern than those from BiH.
Yeah, can try to get some Eurogenes K13 from Croatian FTDNA project as well. I saw some posted there already.
MoroLP
04-14-2020, 02:13 PM
So please do the same with your matches if it's possible...
I can make Croat_Croatia average out of Zagreb, Split and Kajkavian samples. Not that there will be any significant difference.
Will do the same these days and then will send them via PM... it doesn't matter if the difference is minimal as even then is important to have an average with clear borders.
Will do the same these days and then will send them via PM... it doesn't matter if the difference is minimal as even then is important to have an average with clear borders.
Alright, thanks :)
CommonSense
04-14-2020, 02:21 PM
Yes, I know.
Your Krajina_Serb 24.71, 31.76, 16.79 etc. is only for Serbs from Croatia without Bosanska Krajina right?
Btw I got 3 new Krajina Serb results (with kits), one is from Lika (Marinko Vukovojac), one is from Kordun or Gorski Kotar (Milan Mamula), and one from East Slavonia (Branko Arsenić).
On SDP Mamula Serbs from Kordun are tested as I2-PH908, and those from Gorski Kotar as I2-Z17855.
Vukovojac is J2b1-M205.
It's unlikely he's from East Slavonia. I match him and have access to his family tree, but half of it is private. Anyway, his maternal grandfather is from the village Ćelije near Lajkovac, while the grandmother has an odd surname (possibly Russian or some other foreigner).
https://i.ibb.co/pPJvfBD/unknown.png
The surname Arsenić also exists in several villages in western Serbia, as well as two other surnames he listed (i guess they're from his paternal side [Trgovčević, Josipović]).
What's the point in drawing conclusions based on surnames alone? Pretty sure you never saw the family tree of any of the people you posted.
^^^^Î agree with this, no samples posted only based on surname without knowing anything else can be considered reliable.
Only those verified by e-mail conversation with said person and their full ancestry known can be trusted.
MoroLP
04-14-2020, 02:26 PM
Now saw the map of mtDNA and Y-DNA of the Croatian DNA Project, based on the regions of Mrsic et al. (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-Croatian-regions_fig1_221889294), there exist at least 3 samples for Northern region, 1-2 samples for Eastern region, and several for Western region which includes Istria, Kvarner and Lika. In Istria for example should be, besides three mine, another 4 samples (two from I2a Project).
Now saw the map of mtDNA and Y-DNA of the Croatian DNA Project, based on the regions of Mrsic et al. (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-Croatian-regions_fig1_221889294), there exist at least 3 samples for Northern region, 1-2 samples for Eastern region, and many for Western region which includes Istria, Kvarner and Lika. In Istria for example should be, besides three mine, another 4 samples.
Did those test autosomal DNA?
Croat_Croatia,29.05,33.12,14.54,7.86,10.89,1.54,0. 72,0.35,0.38,0.76,0.39,0.22,0.09
Pribislav
04-14-2020, 02:37 PM
It's unlikely he's from East Slavonia. I match him and have access to his family tree, but half of it is private. Anyway, his maternal grandfather is from the village Ćelije near Lajkovac, while the grandmother has an odd surname (possibly Russian or some other foreigner).
https://i.ibb.co/pPJvfBD/unknown.png
The surname Arsenić also exists in several villages in western Serbia, as well as two other surnames he listed (i guess they're from his paternal side [Trgovčević, Josipović]).
What's the point in drawing conclusions based on surnames alone? Pretty sure you never saw the family tree of any of the people you posted.
According to sources Aresenić Serbs are mostly from East Slavonia. I don't have a will to search someone's Gmail every time when I got kit and to disturb people which I don't know personally, I am not Mingle. I have Arsenić's kit, do you have?
Are you sure that you was every time right for someone's geographical origin? You claimed few times someone's geographical origin according to specific surname.
Someone can carry specific surname limited on some area like Komazec (only Bukovica Serbs) or Vukovojac (Lika Serbs), but if they have mother or grandmother from Niš or Kragujevac in that case their results have no sense for Bukovica or Lika Serbs. Morlak's father is from Benkovac and mother is from Montenegro, and he can be only counted in Serbian average not for Dalmatian or Montenegrin Serbs.
MoroLP
04-14-2020, 02:38 PM
Did those test autosomal DNA?
I'm not certain, probably some of them, it will be a bit harder to find that info, but can ask the admin.
This is how it scores, bad averages and those consisting of 1 samples removed.
Distance to: Croat_Croatia
0.96234090 Croat_Zagreb
1.51347283 Croat_Croatia+BiH_average
1.86447591 Slovenian
2.57994792 Croat_Bosnia_Herzegovina
2.64249882 Szekely_Hungarian
3.17488582 Hungarian_New
3.60765852 Moldova_North
4.00012500 Croat_Bosnia
4.02458694 Croat_Herzegovina
4.23905650 Croat_Split
4.34844081 Serbian_Bosnia
5.12569020 Hungarian_East
5.19189753 Moldavian
5.21583167 Kaykavian_Croatian
5.64565107 Bosniak_Sarajevo_academic
5.77105412 Slovak
6.18701059 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
7.04124572 Serbian_new
7.65181678 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.76488248 Czech
9.23426229 Austrian
9.37251834 Romania_Moldavia_North
9.64084021 Serbian_Belgrade_academic
9.68475606 East_German
9.82049388 Romanian_Average
Closest to Zagreb, which should be representative for average Croats as it's regional mix and most of population lives there. Nice.
CommonSense
04-14-2020, 02:45 PM
According to sources Aresenić Serbs are mostly from East Slavonia. I don't have a will to search someone's Gmail every time when I got kit and to disturb people which I don't know personally, I am not Mingle. I have Arsenić's kit, do you have?
Are you sure that you was every time right for someone's geographical origin? You claimed few times someone's geographical origin according to specific surname.
Someone can carry specific surname limited on some are like Komazec (only Bukovica Serbs) or Vukovojac (Lika Serbs), but if they have mother or grandmother from Niš or Kragujevac in that case their results have no sense for Bukovica or Lika Serbs. Morlak's father is from Benkovac and mother is from Montenegro, and he can be only counted in Serbian average not for Daomatian and Montenegrin Serbs.
Yes, I obviously have his kit:
HN4654327
Personally, I've never posted any results if I didn't have access to data from their family tree. People who leave both a semi-detailed genealogy on MyHeritage and FTDNA and, at the same time, upload their raw data to gedmatch are a very small minority of tested customers which why I haven't posted as many results as some other people have. Mingle found a way 'around' this issues by asking people personally via email, but I don't think even 1/3 sent him back a reply.
vbnetkhio
04-14-2020, 02:49 PM
I am more and more thinking to delete Slavic and Morlach cluster, both are cherrypicked specific types of results, just like Bosniak Tuzla is cherrypicked specific average.
that's a difficult question. the Split, Bosnian and Herzegovinian Croat averages are all pretty simialr to each other as you can see , and they are intermediates between the Morlach and Slavic clusters. maybe it would be the best to have just one "South Croat" average from these 3.
but if we delete the South Croat Slavic cluster, and the Moldovan average gets replaced with a new one which is ~30% Baltic, how will those people with, for example, 35% Baltic and 22% Atlantic be represented in the sheet? and they do exist. maybe genetic groups are more important than ethnic or geographic ones.
Personally, I've never posted any results if I didn't have access to data from their family tree. People who leave both a semi-detailed genealogy on MyHeritage and FTDNA and, at the same time, upload their raw data to gedmatch are a very small minority of tested customers which why I haven't posted as many results as some other people have. Mingle found a way 'around' this issues by asking people personally via email, but I don't think even 1/3 sent him back a reply.
Yes, that's true. A lot of MH users aren't on Gedmatch for whatever reason.
Mingle is a fucking strange guy. xD I've sent emails only to fellow Russians/East Slavs and even they were kind of surprised by me asking about their origins, particularly when I didn't even share any DNA segments with them. And Mingle is neither Balkan, nor Slavic nor white. Of course asking about Gedmatch results is no crime.
that's a difficult question. the Split, Bosnian and Herzegovinian Croat averages are all pretty simialr to each other as you can see , and they are intermediates between the Morlach and Slavic clusters. maybe it would be the best to have just one "South Croat" average from these 3.
but if we delete the South Croat Slavic cluster, and the Moldovan average gets replaced with a new one which is ~30% Baltic, how will those people with, for example, 35% Baltic and 22% Atlantic be represented in the sheet? and they do exist. maybe genetic groups are more important than ethnic or geographic ones.
Hmm, difficult question indeed. My plan is to collect more samples purely from let's say Dalmatia or Bosnia and blend them with existing academic regional averages we have.
Maybe some things change.
Morlach cluster is already obsolete because I included Ljubic father in it and later he found out his father is partly from Serbia, for example.
Updated K13 is a mess, it needs a cleanup. Many of these Bulgarian and Romanian averages (not counting Ion's new averages which will be great) and probably Greek and Turkish, Macedonian ones consist of 1 sample!!!
That's not reliable at all. At least 5 should be a minimum in my opinion.
I know Bulgarian_Dupnitsa for example is just one person, etc.
I will be running my own modified K13 with only decent samples.
Btw, I will include Croats posted by Mingle in my database, as they are verified since he spoke with them :) That's very helpful.
But they will be added to gedmatch later, when I collect much more samples.
Ljubic
04-14-2020, 08:17 PM
Isnt my Father on the Morlach cluster? He is 1/4 Serb from Srjem so he can be thrown out completly.
Isnt my Father on the Morlach cluster? He is 1/4 Serb from Srjem so he can be thrown out completly.
Yeah, that average is obsolete by now.
This academic sample from Split scores almost 6% Red Sea. Is this possible score full a full ethnic Croat? Share your opinion
Croat_Split,23.46,32.45,17.06,8.66,10.15,5.57,0.93 ,0,0,0.06,1.65,0,0
I think it's too much, but maybe I am mistaken.
CommonSense
04-14-2020, 10:19 PM
This academic sample from Split scores almost 6% Red Sea. Is this possible score full a full ethnic Croat? Share your opinion
Croat_Split,23.46,32.45,17.06,8.66,10.15,5.57,0.93 ,0,0,0.06,1.65,0,0
I think it's too much, but maybe I am mistaken.
Some academic samples have extremely hightened (or lowered) values of certain components. One Serbian sample from that well-known study gets 32 North Atlantic on K13.
vbnetkhio
04-14-2020, 10:24 PM
Some academic samples have extremely hightened (or lowered) values of certain components. One Serbian sample from that well-known study gets 32 North Atlantic on K13.
that sample is just Germanic admixed. here it could also be because Split samples are very low quality.
Well, I will include them all. Even that Herzegovina guy with high south asian, his other values are very ok, and I guess he knows no foreign ancestry.
not like one or two sample with bit atypical value can hurt
CommonSense
04-14-2020, 10:29 PM
that sample is just Germanic admixed. here it could also be because Split samples are very low quality.
Are you sure? I thought the criteria for the candidates they tested was that they had four ethnic Serbian gradparents. Now it's obviously understandable that some who have roots from Montenegro, but their grandparents were born here, were selected. But how could they have included a person who has, for example, a German grandparent? Sounds like a pretty big slip-up to me.
Ljubic
04-15-2020, 05:19 AM
I guess that Gedmatch cant decide where to assign some DNA-Components of some individuals and something weird as high Red Sea and South Asian comes out as substitution. We shouldnt forget that these calculators are still kind of amateurish.
Peterski
04-15-2020, 07:59 AM
The truth is that Balkan averages should be calculated by someone with less than 10% Balkan ancestry in order to make sure that there is no bias. For example me, an unbiased "outsider" from a place far away from the Balkans.
On the other hand, I would assign Feiichy and other Balkan users another job, for example you can start collecting African, South Asian, Filipino etc. averages, because you have no agendas in any of these regions.
It is also very mind-opening experience when you have an opportunity to research the genetics of people you have nothing to do with. :)
The truth is that Balkan averages should be calculated by someone with less than 10% Balkan ancestry in order to make sure that there is no bias. For example me, an unbiased "outsider" from a place far away from the Balkans.
On the other hand, I would assign Feiichy and other Balkan users another job, for example you can start collecting African, South Asian or Filipino etc. averages, because you have no agendas in these regions.
It is also very mind-opening experience when you have an opportunity to research the genetics of people you have nothing to do with. :)
You don't need to worry about me, I have absolutely no agenda but the truth.
Otherwise I would not include samples I think are weird or I don't like, which obviously isn't the case.
Peterski
04-15-2020, 08:03 AM
Okay but it is still autistic to only focus on your own ethnicity/region/"race". I do the whole world approach. :D
Okay but it is still autistic to only focus on your own ethnicity/region/"race".
I would like to make German regional averages, but that's better suited for actual German to make who knows history and surnames of given regions etc.
Balkan samples cannot be collected in proper way by outsider unless you speak to sample carriers directly.
Because you don't know history, population movements and you can't distinguish between surnames which even we often can't.
Peterski
04-15-2020, 08:11 AM
I wouldn't rely exclusively on surnames anyway, because surname comes from just one lineage.
Surnames could be important if you research Y-DNA haplogroups.
Balkan samples cannot be collected in proper way by outsider unless you speak to sample carriers directly.
Because you don't know history, population movements and you can't distinguish between surnames which even we often can't.
I was kind of joking anyway, focus on the Balkans if you want and if you like this topic.
I wouldn't rely exclusively on surnames anyway, because surname comes from just one lineage.
But I was kind of joking anyway, focus on the Balkans if you want and if you like this topic.
And we don't. You need to follow topics before posting. Unverified samples without full known ancestry are not accepted in my database I am preparing and currently has 80 samples including academics. :)
Also, I definitely don't focus on Balkans since Hungarian regional averages were made by me.
Peterski
04-15-2020, 08:16 AM
But my opinion is that the Balkans have a lot of overlap between nations. There is more variation within each nation than between nations, and individuals from different Balkan populations can be genetically more similar to each other than individuals from the same Balkan population.
So you would need to have a lot of averages for small regions to distinguish accurately.
Also, I definitely don't focus on Balkans since Hungarian regional averages were made by me.
Hungarians also overlap with Western Balkans (Croatia, Slovenia) as well as with Moldova to some extent.
Hungarians are kind of intermediate between Central Europe and Balkans (including Moldova/Romania).
^^^^Actually it's Croats who are intermediate. Hungarians are fully central European, Croats around half.
Agree for the overlap, it's massive, I didn't know it was that big until recently.
Peterski
04-15-2020, 08:24 AM
Hungarians are fully central European
It depends, for example this Szekler - H41**** (I'm not allowed to publish full kit #, but you know which one it is) - has a lot of Balkan admixture.
Another Szekler - H40**** - is more northern-shifted, but close to Carpathian Rusyns and Slovaks, who as you know have some Balkan genes too.
You don't count Szeklers as Hungarians?
====
Also some Northern Moldovans can be close to Hungarians due to being a similar mix (only less Germanic).
But Southern Moldovans are much more Balkan and much less Slavic, so not close to any Hungarians at all.
What I meant is that Transylvania was considered central European historically. Or east-central, if you prefer.
Logically central region includes admixture from south, otherwise it isn't central.
Scandal
04-17-2020, 10:46 AM
edit
Presumably a Croatian woman (Benedejcic)
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 32.54
2 North_Atlantic 30.59
3 East_Med 15
4 West_Med 10.55
5 West_Asian 7.5
6 East_Asian 1.98
7 Amerindian 0.89
8 South_Asian 0.56
9 Oceanian 0.39
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 5.39
2 Croatian 7.71
3 Serbian 8.09
4 Moldavian 8.44
5 Austrian 9.6
6 East_German 10.42
7 South_Polish 11.5
8 Romanian 11.84
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.42
10 Ukrainian 13.09
11 Bulgarian 14.11
12 Polish 15.25
13 West_German 15.78
14 Southwest_Russian 15.94
15 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.25
16 South_Dutch 17.43
17 Russian_Smolensk 17.51
18 North_German 17.83
19 Estonian_Polish 17.94
20 Belorussian 17.94
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.3% Serbian + 22.7% La_Brana-1 @ 4.4
2 94.3% Hungarian + 5.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.54
3 67.9% Romanian + 32.1% La_Brana-1 @ 4.65
4 95% Hungarian + 5% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.72
5 95.7% Hungarian + 4.3% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.74
6 95.1% Hungarian + 4.9% Iranian_Jewish @ 4.75
7 95.3% Hungarian + 4.7% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.79
8 95.1% Hungarian + 4.9% Palestinian @ 4.79
9 95.2% Hungarian + 4.8% Samaritan @ 4.8
10 92.6% Hungarian + 7.4% Ashkenazi @ 4.81
11 95.2% Hungarian + 4.8% Assyrian @ 4.81
12 95.2% Hungarian + 4.8% Jordanian @ 4.84
13 95% Hungarian + 5% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.86
14 94.9% Hungarian + 5.1% Cyprian @ 4.86
15 85.3% Hungarian + 14.7% Bulgarian @ 4.88
16 78.2% South_Polish + 21.8% Italian_Jewish @ 4.89
17 95.5% Hungarian + 4.5% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.89
18 95.4% Hungarian + 4.6% Syrian @ 4.93
19 57.3% Bulgarian + 42.7% Southwest_Finnish @ 4.95
20 95.1% Hungarian + 4.9% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.96
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 28.84
2 Baltic 18.52
3 Eastern_Euro 12.92
4 Atlantic 11.8
5 East_Med 11.62
6 West_Med 7.29
7 West_Asian 6.57
8 Southeast_Asian 1.51
9 Amerindian 0.49
10 South_Asian 0.22
11 Oceanian 0.22
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 7.96
2 Moldavian 10.91
3 Serbian 11.42
4 East_German 11.98
5 Croatian 12.31
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.77
7 Austrian 12.81
8 Ukrainian 13.44
9 South_Polish 13.86
10 Romanian 14.02
11 West_German 14.04
12 Finnish 14.87
13 Southwest_Finnish 15.21
14 North_Swedish 15.39
15 Polish 16.22
16 Swedish 16.46
17 North_German 16.83
18 South_Dutch 16.87
19 Bulgarian 16.91
20 Norwegian 17.56
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.4% Finnish + 39.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 7.33
2 93.8% Hungarian + 6.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 7.38
3 59.4% North_Swedish + 40.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 7.41
4 94.4% Hungarian + 5.6% Kurdish_Jewish @ 7.47
5 94.3% Hungarian + 5.7% Assyrian @ 7.51
6 94.6% Hungarian + 5.4% Iranian_Jewish @ 7.53
7 94.7% Hungarian + 5.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 7.54
8 94.6% Hungarian + 5.4% Armenian @ 7.56
9 94.8% Hungarian + 5.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 7.59
10 95.8% Hungarian + 4.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 7.59
11 94.9% Hungarian + 5.1% Palestinian @ 7.61
12 94.8% Hungarian + 5.2% Jordanian @ 7.61
13 95.2% Hungarian + 4.8% Samaritan @ 7.63
14 94.9% Hungarian + 5.1% Iranian @ 7.63
15 94.9% Hungarian + 5.1% Kurdish @ 7.63
16 94.3% Hungarian + 5.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 7.64
17 94.8% Hungarian + 5.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 7.65
18 94.4% Hungarian + 5.6% Tabassaran @ 7.65
19 94.7% Hungarian + 5.3% Azeri @ 7.66
20 95% Hungarian + 5% Syrian @ 7.67
Population
Gedrosia 7.01 Pct
Siberian -
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian 1.71 Pct
Atlantic_Med 26.38 Pct
North_European 45.02 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 3.85 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 16.02 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
^^^^More likely a Slovenian judging by the surname, but we can't be sure.
This is a response to Dushan. Feiichy's parents' results from Dodecad K12b Vahaduo (values taken from the thread about her parents' results)
# Population Percent
1 North_European 44.64
2 Atlantic_Med 26.29
3 Caucasus 17.87
4 Gedrosia 5.04
5 Southwest_Asian 4.18
6 Siberian 1.24
7 East_Asian 0.44
8 Southeast_Asian 0.23
9 Northwest_African 0.06
Distance to: Feiichy_Dad
2.18009174 Croat
3.06153556 Bosnian
4.32912231 R.Moldova_Centre+North
4.49046768 Hungarians
6.87530363 Serb
10.73525966 Montenegrin
11.65625583 German
12.95347058 Macedonian
13.79532167 Pomak
14.09667691 Romanians
Target: Feiichy_Dad
Distance: 1.7714% / 1.77136755 | ADC: 1x
89.2 Croat
10.8 Hungarians
Target: Feiichy_Dad
Distance: 1.0246% / 1.02459386 | ADC: 0.5x
83.2 Croat
13.6 Hungarians
3.2 Komi
Target: Feiichy_Dad
Distance: 0.7157% / 0.71568894 | ADC: 0.25x
77.4 Croat
18.2 Hungarians
2.2 Komi
1.8 Udmurt
0.2 Saudis
0.2 Tatar_Kazan
* * *
# Population Percent
1 North_European 42.51
2 Atlantic_Med 28.16
3 Caucasus 17.84
4 Gedrosia 5.17
5 Southwest_Asian 5.02
6 South_Asian 0.69
7 Siberian 0.29
8 Northwest_African 0.28
Distance to: Feiichy_Mom
2.28225765 Croat
3.13239525 Bosnian
4.51718939 R.Moldova_Centre+North
5.20710092 Serb
6.66642333 Hungarians
8.82232962 Montenegrin
11.10673219 Macedonian
11.68936269 German
12.40892421 Pomak
13.14820140 Romanians
Target: Feiichy_Mom
Distance: 1.5391% / 1.53907375 | ADC: 0.5x
93.0 Croat
5.4 French
1.6 Bosnian
Target: Feiichy_Mom
Distance: 0.7252% / 0.72524408 | ADC: 0.25x
85.8 Croat
5.8 French
4.2 Bosnian
3.0 Mixed_Germanic
1.2 Saudis
Looks pretty damn solid to me.
Dušan
05-04-2020, 07:27 PM
I've checked that reference
Croat
4.59
0.41
0.4
0.31
27.14 Atlantic_Med
43.51 North_European
0.31
0.04
4.04
0.11
19.1
0.03
Not very Southern to me. You score 42% NE.
Did you find ph2ter result? He is good representative of huge percent of NW Croats.
Their national average is probably 45%, so I am not very close as you think.
To Bosnian yes, to Croatian not so much.
This is a response to Dushan. Feiichy's parents' results from Dodecad K12b Vahaduo (values taken from the thread about her parents' results)
# Population Percent
1 North_European 44.64
2 Atlantic_Med 26.29
3 Caucasus 17.87
4 Gedrosia 5.04
5 Southwest_Asian 4.18
6 Siberian 1.24
7 East_Asian 0.44
8 Southeast_Asian 0.23
9 Northwest_African 0.06
Distance to: Feiichy_Dad
2.18009174 Croat
3.06153556 Bosnian
4.32912231 R.Moldova_Centre+North
4.49046768 Hungarians
6.87530363 Serb
10.73525966 Montenegrin
11.65625583 German
12.95347058 Macedonian
13.79532167 Pomak
14.09667691 Romanians
Target: Feiichy_Dad
Distance: 1.7714% / 1.77136755 | ADC: 1x
89.2 Croat
10.8 Hungarians
Target: Feiichy_Dad
Distance: 1.0246% / 1.02459386 | ADC: 0.5x
83.2 Croat
13.6 Hungarians
3.2 Komi
Target: Feiichy_Dad
Distance: 0.7157% / 0.71568894 | ADC: 0.25x
77.4 Croat
18.2 Hungarians
2.2 Komi
1.8 Udmurt
0.2 Saudis
0.2 Tatar_Kazan
* * *
# Population Percent
1 North_European 42.51
2 Atlantic_Med 28.16
3 Caucasus 17.84
4 Gedrosia 5.17
5 Southwest_Asian 5.02
6 South_Asian 0.69
7 Siberian 0.29
8 Northwest_African 0.28
Distance to: Feiichy_Mom
2.28225765 Croat
3.13239525 Bosnian
4.51718939 R.Moldova_Centre+North
5.20710092 Serb
6.66642333 Hungarians
8.82232962 Montenegrin
11.10673219 Macedonian
11.68936269 German
12.40892421 Pomak
13.14820140 Romanians
Target: Feiichy_Mom
Distance: 1.5391% / 1.53907375 | ADC: 0.5x
93.0 Croat
5.4 French
1.6 Bosnian
Target: Feiichy_Mom
Distance: 0.7252% / 0.72524408 | ADC: 0.25x
85.8 Croat
5.8 French
4.2 Bosnian
3.0 Mixed_Germanic
1.2 Saudis
Looks pretty damn solid to me.
It's excellent average. My father is extremelly typical everywhere. And Croatian average isn''t 45% North European on that like Dušan claims, I am 44% and more northern shifted than average. My mother, who is more southern than dad and me is big part German by the way.
It's excellent average. My father is extremelly typical everywhere. And Croatian average isn''t 45% North European on that like Dušan claims, I am 44% and more northern shifted than average. My mother, who is more southern than dad and me is big part German by the way.
Yep. The Serb average is 27.31 AM and 39.08 NE, so there is already a notable difference. I also think it's fine. Dushan just wants to distance himself from Croats as much as possible.
Did you find ph2ter result? He is good representative of huge percent of NW Croats.
Their national average is probably 45%, so I am not very close as you think.
To Bosnian yes, to Croatian not so much.
I do not have his results. Maybe he'll see this and weigh in.
Ljubic
05-04-2020, 08:11 PM
Dodecad really differs from Eurogenes. My Greatuncle isnt really Northshifted on K13 but his Dodecad results are like this:
Population
Gedrosia 4.49 Pct
Siberian 1.01 Pct
Northwest_African 0.77 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 26.99 Pct
North_European 43.08 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 5.35 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 18.26 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
1.82833257 Croat
2.34810562 Bosnian
3.70873294 R.Moldova_Centre+North
5.24539798 Serb
6.25217562 Hungarians
9.00778552 Montenegrin
11.29787591 Macedonian
12.23667030 Pomak
12.51949280 German
12.83034294 Romanians
13.97468068 R.Moldova_South
14.93565198 Bulgarian
15.34658594 Bulgarians
15.85094004 R.Moldova_Gagauz
16.06157527 Gagauz
16.39190886 Italy_FriuliVG
16.66054321 Rus_Smolensk
16.76292934 Turk_Romania
17.61517528 Rus_Kostroma
17.84971708 Italy_Trentino
18.12814387 Turk_Bulgaria
18.38190959 Albanian_North
18.38395224 Mixed_Germanic
19.08264878 Italy_Aosta_Valley
19.26086966 Rus_Tver
ph2ter
05-04-2020, 10:38 PM
I do not have his results. Maybe he'll see this and weigh in.
My result:
North_Atlantic 33.10
Baltic 34.98
West_Med 12.26
West_Asian 7.75
East_Med 6.51
Red_Sea 2.23
South_Asian 1.09
East_Asian 0.00
Siberian 0.36
Amerindian 1.33
Oceanian 0.38
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.00
My wife (completely unrelated to me):
North_Atlantic 32.29
Baltic 33.74
West_Med 12.26
West_Asian 9.91
East_Med 7.07
Red_Sea 0.46
South_Asian 1.82
East_Asian 1.10
Siberian 0.00
Amerindian 1.16
Oceanian 0.00
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.19
But, I don't know many such north-shifted results, so maybe I am not so typical.
My result:
North_Atlantic 33.10
Baltic 34.98
West_Med 12.26
West_Asian 7.75
East_Med 6.51
Red_Sea 2.23
South_Asian 1.09
East_Asian 0.00
Siberian 0.36
Amerindian 1.33
Oceanian 0.38
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.00
But, I don't know many such north-shifted results, so maybe I am not so typical.
Hi,
We were talking about Dodecad K12b, not Eurogenes K13. Run yourself through Vahaduo K12b.
ph2ter
05-04-2020, 10:46 PM
Hi,
We were talking about Dodecad K12b, not Eurogenes K13. Run yourself through Vahaduo K12b.
Population
Gedrosia 4.01 Pct
Siberian 0.69 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 27.97 Pct
North_European 49.51 Pct
South_Asian 0.52 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 2.82 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 14.47 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
# Population Percent
1 North_European 49.51
2 Atlantic_Med 27.97
3 Caucasus 14.47
4 Gedrosia 4.01
5 Southwest_Asian 2.82
6 Siberian 0.69
7 South_Asian 0.52
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 2.1
2 German (Dodecad) 7.18
3 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 14.65
4 Polish (Dodecad) 14.75
5 Swedish (Dodecad) 14.8
6 Dutch (Dodecad) 15.11
7 Norwegian (Dodecad) 16.21
8 Ukranians (Yunusbayev) 16.32
9 Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) 17.55
10 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 17.85
11 Romanians (Behar) 18.06
12 English (Dodecad) 18.08
13 Kent (1000Genomes) 18.15
14 British_Isles (Dodecad) 18.63
15 Orkney (1000Genomes) 19.94
16 Argyll (1000Genomes) 19.95
17 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 20.05
18 French (Dodecad) 20.07
19 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 20.17
20 Orcadian (HGDP) 20.49
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.2% Hungarians (Behar) + 11.8% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 0.66
2 89.2% Hungarians (Behar) + 10.8% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 0.74
3 81.7% Hungarians (Behar) + 18.3% German (Dodecad) @ 1.38
4 92.9% Hungarians (Behar) + 7.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 1.44
5 92.6% Hungarians (Behar) + 7.4% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 1.48
6 93.3% Hungarians (Behar) + 6.7% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 1.49
7 93.4% Hungarians (Behar) + 6.6% Irish (Dodecad) @ 1.51
8 93.4% Hungarians (Behar) + 6.6% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.54
9 91.5% Hungarians (Behar) + 8.5% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 1.55
10 92.8% Hungarians (Behar) + 7.2% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.58
11 92.9% Hungarians (Behar) + 7.1% English (Dodecad) @ 1.58
12 93.8% Hungarians (Behar) + 6.2% British (Dodecad) @ 1.6
13 66.5% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 33.5% Cataluna (1000Genomes) @ 1.62
14 93.2% Hungarians (Behar) + 6.8% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 1.63
15 94.2% Hungarians (Behar) + 5.8% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 1.66
16 92.3% Hungarians (Behar) + 7.7% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.71
17 51.4% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 48.6% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 1.78
18 96.3% Hungarians (Behar) + 3.7% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.78
19 96.6% Hungarians (Behar) + 3.4% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.79
20 69.1% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 30.9% Valencia (1000Genomes) @ 1.86
This is gedmatch
ph2ter
05-04-2020, 10:49 PM
Target: ph2ter
Distance: 0.7293% / 0.72929215 | ADC: 0.25x
89.2 Hungarians
10.8 Swedish
Distance to: ph2ter
2.31190398 Hungarians
7.76812719 Croat
7.85180871 German
9.13309367 Bosnian
10.47216787 Rus_Smolensk
10.47908870 R.Moldova_Centre+North
11.50890090 Rus_Kostroma
12.88001553 Serb
13.08239657 Southwest_Rus
13.12166529 Rus_Tver
15.99021263 Mixed_Germanic
16.04769142 Polish
16.47776987 Swedish
16.52394929 Dutch
16.68707284 Montenegrin
17.67526237 Ukranians
17.99413516 Norwegian
19.00402063 Macedonian
19.02546714 Mixed_Slav
19.50376630 CEU30
19.75664698 English
19.81445937 Kent
19.99077037 Romanians
20.05862657 Pomak
20.36995091 British_Isles
knez01
05-04-2020, 10:49 PM
My result:
North_Atlantic 33.10
Baltic 34.98
West_Med 12.26
West_Asian 7.75
East_Med 6.51
Red_Sea 2.23
South_Asian 1.09
East_Asian 0.00
Siberian 0.36
Amerindian 1.33
Oceanian 0.38
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.00
My wife (completely unrelated to me):
North_Atlantic 32.29
Baltic 33.74
West_Med 12.26
West_Asian 9.91
East_Med 7.07
Red_Sea 0.46
South_Asian 1.82
East_Asian 1.10
Siberian 0.00
Amerindian 1.16
Oceanian 0.00
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.19
But, I don't know many such north-shifted results, so maybe I am not so typical.
Can you post your k15? I wonder what a north croatian plots like
49.5% North_European... Looks like Dushan just got BTFO'd, lol :lol:
knez01
05-04-2020, 10:51 PM
double
ph2ter
05-04-2020, 11:17 PM
Can you post your k15? I wonder what a north croatian plots like
North_Sea 18.39
Atlantic 23.93
Baltic 20.76
Eastern_Euro 16.75
West_Med 6.67
West_Asian 7.68
East_Med 2.74
Red_Sea 1.75
South_Asian 0.45
Southeast_Asian 0.00
Siberian 0.00
Amerindian 0.83
Oceanian 0.06
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.00
knez01
05-04-2020, 11:36 PM
North_Sea 18.39
Atlantic 23.93
Baltic 20.76
Eastern_Euro 16.75
West_Med 6.67
West_Asian 7.68
East_Med 2.74
Red_Sea 1.75
South_Asian 0.45
Southeast_Asian 0.00
Siberian 0.00
Amerindian 0.83
Oceanian 0.06
Northeast_African 0.00
Sub-Saharan 0.00
You're north shifted, i guess normal for a north croatian, here are my k15 results, i get the most snp on this calculator
North_Sea 11.95 Pct
Atlantic 15.65 Pct
Baltic 25.25 Pct
Eastern_Euro 11.63 Pct
West_Med 13.47 Pct
West_Asian 9.48 Pct
East_Med 8.84 Pct
Red_Sea 2.95 Pct
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.58 Pct
Oceanian 0.20 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Dušan
05-05-2020, 06:29 AM
49.5% North_European... Looks like Dushan just got BTFO'd, lol :lol:
???
I told you that they are way more northern than us, with average of probably 45%. And ph2ter has almost 50%.
It is none of my bussines, but Croatian average should be updated, because NW Croats are underrepresented.
Dušan
05-05-2020, 06:35 AM
It's excellent average. My father is extremelly typical everywhere. And Croatian average isn''t 45% North European on that like Dušan claims, I am 44% and more northern shifted than average. My mother, who is more southern than dad and me is big part German by the way.
OK, your father is extremelly typical and very close to average.
https://i.imgur.com/Y73CRvA.jpg
But still, NW Croats are underrepresented.
OK, your father is extremelly typical and very close to average.
https://i.imgur.com/Y73CRvA.jpg
But still, NW Croats are underrepresented.
Possible, I don't know what samples were chosen for this average.
???
I told you that they are way more northern than us, with average of probably 45%. And ph2ter has almost 50%.
It is none of my bussines, but Croatian average should be updated, because NW Croats are underrepresented.
You were expecting p2hter to score like a typical Croat. But he is not.
It is fine, let it be. Leave politics aside.
Dušan
05-05-2020, 11:23 AM
You were expecting p2hter to score like a typical Croat. But he is not.
It is fine, let it be. Leave politics aside.
You didn't understand.
I said that ph2ter, as typical NW Croat, will not get Croatian average because that average is south shifted. And I was right.
vbnetkhio
05-05-2020, 03:08 PM
You didn't understand.
I said that ph2ter, as typical NW Croat, will not get Croatian average because that average is south shifted. And I was right.
is the dodecad average from Zagreb academic samples? they are right between south and north Croats, in k13 at least.
Dušan
05-05-2020, 03:45 PM
is the dodecad average from Zagreb academic samples? they are right between south and north Croats, in k13 at least.
I dont know what is source for old Croatian average, but it is way too southern.
I got Serbian average before Ljubićs greatuncle (Bosnian Croat), Feiichys dad (southern Croat) and ph2ter (northwest Croat)m what is logical, but for some reason that old average is closer.
https://i.imgur.com/iGx0BLZ.jpg
This is average based on these there samples (ljubić, feiichy, ph2ter):
4,51
0,98
0,28
0,08
27,08
45,74
0,17
0,00
4,12
0,15
16,87
0,00
I am completly sure that it is closer to reality.
Dunai
05-06-2020, 12:19 PM
I am aware that some Croatian members are working at the moment on making more comprehensive and representative Croatian regional averages, but based on what I saw in the OP, the academic results, what I conclude is that there is a surprising overlap with many Hungarian results I have seen, only generally Croatians are less German but little bit more Slavic and Balkan than Hungarians. Also I do believe Croatians of Bosnia are the same population as those in Southern Croatia, so in someway they should be connected with mainland Croatian regional averages. But I don't have enough historical insight to say if they should also be part of the entire Croatian average, since Croatians in the North seem to be somewhat different than those in the South (who are similar to Croatians of Bosnia), but technically thy share the same country, so it would seem normal all regions of modern Croatia to be included in the new Croatian average. Another thing that keeps surprising me (but not really) every time I see it, is how different Croatian national averages are from Serbian national averages, which seems to disprove the common generalization of foreigners that they basically are the same people. I believe this generalization often comes from most people not really knowing the history of South-East Europe.
Croat from Dalmatian hinterland (Sinjska krajina) and Lika.
H979215
North_Atlantic 24.56 Pct
Baltic 34.42 Pct
West_Med 15.70 Pct
West_Asian 7.23 Pct
East_Med 13.03 Pct
Red_Sea 2.15 Pct
South_Asian 0.45 Pct
East_Asian 0.71 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 1.73 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Distance to: Croat_Dalmatia_&_Lika
3.08920702 Croat_Istria
3.27992378 Croat_Lika-Senj
3.34913422 Croat_Herzegovina
3.58371316 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
3.60925200 Moldova_North
3.87061012 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.90165350 Croat_Bosnia
4.11161769 Croat
4.14476779 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
4.25464452 Croat_Dalmatia
4.36513459 Bosniak
4.40099989 Croat_Tropolje
4.83776808 Serb_B&H
4.92856977 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
5.11348218 Croat_Zagreb
5.73491935 Serb_Croatia
5.89429850 Hungarian_Alfold
5.90279595 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
5.90704664 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
6.18930529 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
6.32004994 Hungarian_Csango
6.39016432 Croat_Slavonia
6.40917311 Serb_B&H_Krajina
6.44545790 Slovenian
6.45012403 Serb
Target: Croat_Dalmatia_&_Lika
Distance: 1.3648% / 1.36476169 | ADC: 0.25x
85.0 Croat_Istria
7.0 Latvian
3.6 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
3.4 Bulgarian_Northwest
0.6 Papuan
0.4 NAN_Melanesian
CommonSense
06-15-2020, 03:06 PM
Dragičević, Stari Mikanovci (east Slavonia):
Kit EA7322635
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 31.83
2 North_Atlantic 26.07
3 West_Med 16.77
4 East_Med 12.18
5 West_Asian 8.19
6 Red_Sea 3.13
7 Oceanian 1.02
8 Siberian 0.76
9 Amerindian 0.05
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Moldavian 4.02
2 Serbian 5.35
3 Croatian 5.47
4 Hungarian 7.29
5 Romanian 8.91
6 Austrian 10.8
7 Bulgarian 11.01
8 East_German 11.61
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 11.77
10 South_Polish 12.67
11 Ukrainian 13.19
12 Polish 16.04
13 Southwest_Russian 16.79
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 17.14
15 West_German 17.57
16 Russian_Smolensk 18.23
17 Estonian_Polish 18.75
18 South_Dutch 18.88
19 Belorussian 19.37
20 Greek_Thessaly 19.44
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.4% Ukrainian_Lviv + 33.6% Tuscan @ 1.97
2 84.1% Croatian + 15.9% West_Sicilian @ 2.1
3 69.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 30.2% West_Sicilian @ 2.1
4 82% Croatian + 18% Tuscan @ 2.15
5 84.6% Croatian + 15.4% East_Sicilian @ 2.26
6 86.1% Croatian + 13.9% South_Italian @ 2.3
7 84.2% Croatian + 15.8% Central_Greek @ 2.31
8 79.6% Croatian + 20.4% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.32
9 83.7% Croatian + 16.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.32
10 87.8% Croatian + 12.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.32
11 87.9% Croatian + 12.1% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.33
12 87.9% Croatian + 12.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.34
13 50.7% Serbian + 49.3% Croatian @ 2.42
14 63.7% Croatian + 36.3% Romanian @ 2.48
15 89% Croatian + 11% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.52
16 55.9% Russian_Smolensk + 44.1% Tuscan @ 2.53
17 71% Serbian + 29% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.55
18 68.9% Croatian + 31.1% Bulgarian @ 2.58
19 89.1% Croatian + 10.9% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.59
20 88.2% Moldavian + 11.8% Portuguese @ 2.59
I had some people from this family on gedmatch when I first signed up, but back then I had no details about their ancestry. Only after I uploaded my mom's data to FTDNA I got the man above as a match, and saw his family tree, but by then the kits were removed. Now they are back up.
As for the others from that family, I don't match them on FTDNA, so you'll have to send an email to find out if they are all also from the same place or at least the same region.
Dragičević, Stari Mikanovci (east Slavonia):
Dodecad
Population
Gedrosia 3.46 Pct
Siberian 0.91 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian 0.51 Pct
Atlantic_Med 26.88 Pct
North_European 41.95 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 4.76 Pct
East_Asian 0.14 Pct
Caucasus 21.38 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
Distance to: East_Slavonia
2.57114760 Bosnian
3.05632132 R.Moldova_Centre+North
3.16929014 Croat
3.27499618 Serb
5.34580209 HUN_Szekely
6.78759162 Montenegrin
8.50742617 Hungarians
9.00444335 Macedonian
9.71083416 Romanians
9.88968655 Pomak
Target: East_Slavonia
Distance: 1.9793% / 1.97931283 | ADC: 1x
71.2 Bosnian
28.8 Serb
Target: East_Slavonia
Distance: 1.5747% / 1.57468463 | ADC: 0.5x
41.0 Bosnian
27.8 Croat
25.6 Serb
5.6 Bulgarians
Target: East_Slavonia
Distance: 1.0214% / 1.02139947 | ADC: 0.25x
76.0 Croat
17.2 Bulgarians
5.2 Serb
1.6 Bosnian
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