So Celts were North Europeans after all?

[Token]

Here are the coordinates, see by yourself. They are from Swiss Iron Age, probably La Tené culture.


MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317

MX188,0.0103,0.0128,0.0159,0.0178,0.0069,0.0071,-0.0007,0,-0.0032,-0.0046,0.0003,0.0005,-0.0014,-0.0154,0.0097,0.0167,0.0038,0.002,-0.0019,0.0084,0.0059,0.0029,-0.0027,0.001,-0.0063
MX190,0.0111,0.0133,0.0158,0.0192,0.0082,0.0109,0. 0031,0.0038,-0.0043,-0.0015,-0.0058,0,-0.0096,-0.0111,0.0102,0.0061,0.0027,-0.0029,-0.0016,0.0061,0.0031,0.008,0.0073,-0.0081,-0.0017
MX192,0.0109,0.0119,0.0176,0.0193,0.0082,0.0083,-0.0037,0.0019,-0.0034,-0.0007,0.0016,-0.0024,-0.0053,-0.0059,0.0145,0.0159,0.0092,0.0025,0,0.0019,0.0067 ,0.0013,-0.0032,0.0017,0.0022
MX195,0.0108,0.0119,0.0172,0.0204,0.0071,0.0094,-0.0004,0.0011,-0.0015,-0.0045,0,0.0015,-0.0071,-0.0065,0.0152,0.0183,0.0069,-0.0041,-0.0046,0.0067,-0.0021,0.003,0.0008,0.0025,0.0011

https://i.imgur.com/P7Qqe8e.png

[Token]

They are closest to Scandinavians. Very strange to say the least.

[Ruggery]

Yes and Not, only the British Celts could fall within the range of Northern Europe but the original Celts were from Central Europe.

[Token]

Yes and Not, only the British Celts could fall within the range of Northern Europe but the original Celts were from Central Europe.

Then why are the Central European La Tené samples that i posted closest to North Europeans?

[Nassbean]

How do you explain that their descendents are genetically so different ? I mean la tène culture is quite "recent" ...Maybe the impact of the roman empire and its colonies ?

[Token]

How do you explain that their descendents are genetically so different ? I mean la tène culture is quite "recent" ...Maybe the impact of the roman empire and its colonies ?

This is possible. Maybe it will turn out that we are heavily underestimating the impact of Romans in Europe. But these samples are too northern and i'm still trying to digest the idea. What i'm sure is that La Tené is as Celtic as you can get.

[Token]

Then means the haplogroup U152 It's from Celtic Northern Europeans? Because It was so common in Hallstatt and La Tène culture.

There are U152 subclades that are Italic though.

[Raizen]

Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.04190749 Norwegian
0.04451211 Swedish
0.04555708 Icelandic
0.04763377 Dutch
0.04884175 Orcadian
0.04893182 Irish
0.04942682 Scottish
0.04994741 Shetlandic
0.05119938 Danish
0.05142766 Afrikaner
0.05147107 Welsh
0.05280137 English
0.05292579 German
0.05448067 French_Brittany
0.05449511 Czech
0.05525978 Slovakian
0.05576292 English_Cornwall
0.05713404 German_East
0.05834048 Austrian
0.06034971 Hungarian
0.06178791 Moldovan_o
0.06274732 Belgian
0.06298421 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.06318391 French_Seine-Maritime
0.06323689 Polish

Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.04044076 Norwegian
0.04287914 Swedish
0.04317932 Icelandic
0.04575140 Dutch
0.04599462 Orcadian
0.04709238 Scottish
0.04721007 Irish
0.04863814 Afrikaner
0.04871952 Welsh
0.04897302 German
0.04908184 Danish
0.04935383 Shetlandic
0.04946646 English
0.05161996 French_Brittany
0.05287703 Czech
0.05310850 Slovakian
0.05315369 English_Cornwall
0.05428294 German_East
0.05494405 Austrian
0.05774935 Hungarian
0.05818366 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.05856337 Belgian
0.06055356 French_Seine-Maritime
0.06087286 Moldovan_o
0.06129170 French_Nord

Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.04265581 Swedish
0.04275908 Icelandic
0.04353717 Norwegian
0.04402365 Orcadian
0.04427637 Dutch
0.04472942 Scottish
0.04476116 Irish
0.04550625 Welsh
0.04616030 German
0.04662647 Shetlandic
0.04731126 English
0.04771035 Afrikaner
0.04792178 French_Brittany
0.04812475 Danish
0.04828322 German_East
0.04943519 English_Cornwall
0.05116386 Czech
0.05193253 Austrian
0.05481130 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05530325 Slovakian
0.05547181 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.05555950 Hungarian
0.05593465 Belgian
0.05871971 French_Nord
0.06041209 Polish

Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.04428492 Norwegian
0.04496323 Dutch
0.04573193 Afrikaner
0.04574448 Icelandic
0.04640209 Swedish
0.04642032 Orcadian
0.04710416 Scottish
0.04784262 Irish
0.04804314 German
0.04838956 Welsh
0.04924562 English
0.05016711 Shetlandic
0.05038136 French_Brittany
0.05163989 Danish
0.05256981 English_Cornwall
0.05290718 Austrian
0.05422990 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.05480366 German_East
0.05510397 Czech
0.05530019 Slovakian
0.05615201 Belgian
0.05718667 Hungarian
0.05829945 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05843410 French_Nord
0.06052343 French_Alsace

[Ruggery]

Then why are the Central European La Tené samples that i posted closest to North Europeans?

The central euros are an intermediate between Northern Europe and the south, some being closer to the North and vice-versa.

[Token]

The central euros are an intermediate between Northern Europe and the south, some being closer to the North and vice-versa.

I'm talking about the samples i posted in the thread, not about modern Central Europeans.

[gixajo]

Because ancient celt peoples were not one people and recent genetic evidence does not support the notion of a significant genetic link between these peoples.

basically they used inodeuropean languages, and some of them shared some cultural costumes.

The term "celtic" encompassed many realities.

Maybe those Celt ancient individuals had nothing to do with those who settled in Ireland.Or they did...

[Gaditanian]

How do you explain that their descendents are genetically so different ? I mean la tène culture is quite "recent" ...Maybe the impact of the roman empire and its colonies ?

The main difference I think is their mix with EEF.

Depending of the grade of this mix much more will be the difference.

[Ruggery]

Because ancient celt peoples were not one people and recent genetic evidence does not support the notion of a significant genetic link between these peoples.

basically they used inodeuropean languages, and some of them shared some cultural costumes.

The term "celtic" encompassed many realities.

Maybe those Celt ancient individuals had nothing to do with those who settled in Ireland.Or they did...

The Celts of Ireland are different in fact they are one of the most different and unique of all.

[Samnium]

This is possible. Maybe it will turn out that we are heavily underestimating the impact of Romans in Europe. But these samples are too northern and i'm still trying to digest the idea. What i'm sure is that La Tené is as Celtic as you can get.

Do we have any social background info ?

I don't think necessarily that Romans can explain the differences, I would more say that most of these differences (between Celtic "populations") already existed before that Celts came out.

And yeah you can't be more celtic than La Tène, in fact one of the Celic cultures is named La Tène Culture.

Strange samples anyway, I don't know why they are Scandinavian like.

[Token]

Because ancient celt peoples were not one people and recent genetic evidence does not support the notion of a significant genetic link between these peoples.

basically they used inodeuropean languages, and some of them shared some cultural costumes.

The term "celtic" encompassed many realities.

Maybe those Celt ancient individuals had nothing to do with those who settled in Ireland.Or they did...
I agree, but prior to the expansion there would have been an original Proto-Celtic people living somewhere. It is settled that Celtic language and culture expanded from Central Europe though, and La Tené is the culture that succeded Hallstatt, which is considered Proto-Celtic. Celtic art in particular is actually La Tené art.

[Token]

Do we have any social background info ?

I don't think necessarily that Romans can explain the differences, I would more say that most of these differences (between Celtic "populations") already existed before that Celts came out.

And yeah you can't be more celtic than La Tène, in fact one of the Celic cultures is named La Tène Culture.

Strange samples anyway, I don't know why they are Scandinavian like.

No social background, these samples were 'ripped off' (they were published actually) from an upcoming study on Swiss genetics and Davidski uploaded them to G25.

[Samnium]

No social background, these samples were 'ripped off' (they were published actually) from an upcoming study on Swiss genetics and Davidski uploaded them to G25.

Maybe migrants ? But unlikely, at the end of the day Celts were thought to come from Scandinavia so if some Celtic samples are Scandinavian like, it's not surprising.

[Token]

Maybe migrants ? But unlikely, at the end of the day Celts were thought to come from Scandinavia so if some Celtic samples are Scandinavian like, it's not surprising.

It would be too much of a coincidence if all of the samples tested happen to be migrants.

[Samnium]

It would be too much of a coincidence if all of the samples tested happen to be migrants.

I agree, they look very similar each other, no "pattern" neither variation, and I don't recall something about migrants storming in la Tène.

[Peterski]

They are from Canton Aargau in Switzerland but how do you know they are Iron Age (supposedly 100 BC) and not Bronze or Copper Age?

Is there any official confirmation that they are dated to ca. 100 BCE?

As noted, they are much more northern-shifted than modern Swiss.

[Peterski]

Curious in the Canton of Aargau. Origin place of Habsburg's Family. They are positive in U152..

Weird thing is that they are much more Steppe-admixed and much less Neolithic than modern Swiss Germans (let alone Swiss French etc.).

If those samples were Helvetians then Roman conquest must have made Switzerland much more southern-shifted.


They are positive in U152..

Source ???


They are from Swiss Iron Age

Source ???

[Token]

They are from Canton Aargau in Switzerland but how do you know they are Iron Age (supposedly 100 BC) and not Bronze or Copper Age?

Is there any official confirmation that they are dated to ca. 100 BCE?

As noted, they are much more northern-shifted than modern Swiss.

Ask your Polish friend, i'm curious too because i still doubt these samples are Celts.

[Peterski]

Ask your Polish friend, i'm curious too because i still doubt these samples are Celts.

He told me last week - "these samples are from Aargau. But I don't know which period."

The samples are called:

MX188_scaled
MX190_scaled
MX192_scaled
MX195_scaled

Who labelled them as CHE_IA ???

[Lousianaboy]

im mostly celt but y height is very short to be a celt (5 7) but perhaps thats come from my German side, they were short

[Token]

He told me last week - "these samples are from Aargau. But I don't know which period."

The samples are called:

MX188_scaled
MX190_scaled
MX192_scaled
MX195_scaled

Who labelled them as CHE_IA ???
Look at the thread in Anthrogenica, he said they were from the Iron age.

[Peterski]

Maybe he found more info about these samples.

MTA already has them too and they label them as:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?285335-My-true-ancestry-com&p=6618330&highlight=Aargau#post6618330


Germanic Tribe Aargau Switzerland 100 BC

Of course Switzerland in 100 BC wasn't inhabited by Germanic tribes but by Celtic Helvetians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetii

Either way, these samples are much more northern-shifted than modern Swiss Germans.

[Peterski]

Look at the thread in Anthrogenica, he said they were from the Iron age.

Okay so he confirmed it, maybe he emailed the study's authors.

But are they dated to ca. 100 BCE as MTA claims? Or younger?

[Token]

Maybe he found more info about these samples.

MTA already has them too and they label them as:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?285335-My-true-ancestry-com&p=6618330&highlight=Aargau#post6618330


Germanic Tribe Aargau Switzerland 100 BC

Of course Switzerland in 100 BC was not inhabited by Germanic tribes but by Celtic Helvetians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetii

Either way, these samples are much more northern-shifted than modern Swiss Germans.

They are unrealistically northern shifted though, because they actually seems to be even more northern than Scandinavians. I'm not claiming that the samples are broken, but it will be difficult to reconcile with other genetic facts if Celts from Switzerland turns out to be like that.

[Token]

Okay so he confirmed it, maybe he emailed the study's authors.

But are they dated to ca. 100 BCE as MTA claims? Or younger?

I don't know, Davidski got the infos.

[Peterski]

They are unrealistically northern shifted though, because they actually seems to be even more northern than Scandinavians. I'm not claiming that the samples are broken, but it will be difficult to reconcile with other genetic facts if Celts from Switzerland turns out to be like that.

We talked about these samples last week and he said "they're probably Late Neolithic or Bronze Age". So he has changed his mind about it?:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov//biosample/SAMN14206622


Attributes
isolate MX188
age not collected
biomaterial provider Christian Maise/Regine Fellmann, Archaeological Service of the Canton of Aargau
sex male
tissue Pars Petrosa

I don't believe in XenophobicPrussian's "Celts were Baque-like" bullshit, but I agree that this would be super weird if they were so northern.

[Token]

We talked about these samples last week and he said "they're probably Late Neolithic or Bronze Age". So he has changed his mind about it?:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov//biosample/SAMN14206622


Attributes
isolate MX188
age not collected
biomaterial provider Christian Maise/Regine Fellmann, Archaeological Service of the Canton of Aargau
sex male
tissue Pars Petrosa

I don't believe in XenophobicPrussian's "Celts were Baque-like" bullshit, but I agree that this would be super weird if they were so northern.

It would make far more sense if they were Bronze Age, so he probably got some additional information. No one would guess these samples as Iron Age.

[J. Ketch]

https://media.giphy.com/media/29umo1CKF1D6E/giphy.gif

[Peterski]

these samples were 'ripped off' (they were published actually) from an upcoming study on Swiss genetics

There is also one sample there that apparently has R1a-M458 and looks South Slavic autosomally. MX265.

I doubt this sample is older than the Middle Ages?

=====

Distance to: MX265_scaled
0.03969155 Serbian
0.03976922 Croatian
0.04022650 Slovenian
0.04250646 Bosnian
0.04304069 Austrian
0.04336393 Hungarian
0.04476266 Montenegrin
0.04493139 Romanian
0.04566084 French_Alsace
0.04699986 Swiss_German
0.04763326 Italian_Northeast
0.04810671 Macedonian
0.04859118 French_Nord
0.04911344 German_East
0.05070030 French_Auvergne
0.05089369 Bulgarian
(...)

[Token]

There is also one sample there that apparently has R1a-M458 and looks South Slavic autosomally. MX265.

I doubt this sample is older than the Middle Ages?
Apparently he was from La Tène. He got a lot of Baltic admixture.

[Peterski]

Apparently he was from La Tené. He got a lot of Baltic admixture.

I doubt this sample is older than the Middle Ages, it just looks too similar to modern South Slavs IMO. And it has R1a-M458 associated with Slavs.

Anyway, all these samples are apparently from Siebke 2019:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/oa.2791

"Abstract

Nowadays, the discovery and excavation of an almost intact Late Neolithic dolmen is rare, as those monuments were often visible in the landscape and have been investigated or destroyed in earlier times; therefore, information about the buried individuals has often been lost. The excavation of the dolmen, a stone grave chamber, from Oberbipp, Switzerland, in 2012 provided a unique opportunity to study human skeletal remains from a Late Neolithic collective burial (3350–2650 BCE). Over 2,000 fragmented and commingled skeletal elements were recovered and form the basis of this morphological study. Established morphological methods were employed to evaluate the minimum number of individuals, age at death, sex, stature, and the presence of pathological alterations and trauma. Sex was determined additionally by aDNA analysis. Elements of the entire human skeleton were recovered indicating a primary burial site. At least 42 individuals (femora) from all age classes (57%:43% adults to subadults) were buried in the dolmen. Based on aDNA analysis (n = 23, partes petrosae) slightly more males than females (44%:35% males to females, 22% indeterminate) were recovered. Stature was estimated from complete femora (n = 3) indicating an average body height between 154–157 cm. Pathological alterations and trauma could be observed on several bones, however, without indications for major interpersonal violence. The caries intensity of Swiss samples seems to be higher compared with other Neolithic European sites. A possible separation of burial areas for males and females based on the recovery of skeletal elements within the dolmen along with aDNA results is postulated. In addition, this article contributes to a better understanding of Late Neolithic populations in Central Europe."

[Token]

I doubt this sample is older than the Middle Ages, it just looks too similar to modern South Slavs IMO. And it has R1a-M458 associated with Slavs.

Anyway, all these MX... samples are from Siebke 2019:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/oa.2791

"Abstract

Nowadays, the discovery and excavation of an almost intact Late Neolithic dolmen is rare, as those monuments were often visible in the landscape and have been investigated or destroyed in earlier times; therefore, information about the buried individuals has often been lost. The excavation of the dolmen, a stone grave chamber, from Oberbipp, Switzerland, in 2012 provided a unique opportunity to study human skeletal remains from a Late Neolithic collective burial (3350–2650 BCE). Over 2,000 fragmented and commingled skeletal elements were recovered and form the basis of this morphological study. Established morphological methods were employed to evaluate the minimum number of individuals, age at death, sex, stature, and the presence of pathological alterations and trauma. Sex was determined additionally by aDNA analysis. Elements of the entire human skeleton were recovered indicating a primary burial site. At least 42 individuals (femora) from all age classes (57%:43% adults to subadults) were buried in the dolmen. Based on aDNA analysis (n = 23, partes petrosae) slightly more males than females (44%:35% males to females, 22% indeterminate) were recovered. Stature was estimated from complete femora (n = 3) indicating an average body height between 154–157 cm. Pathological alterations and trauma could be observed on several bones, however, without indications for major interpersonal violence. The caries intensity of Swiss samples seems to be higher compared with other Neolithic European sites. A possible separation of burial areas for males and females based on the recovery of skeletal elements within the dolmen along with aDNA results is postulated. In addition, this article contributes to a better understanding of Late Neolithic populations in Central Europe."
Not very similar, because the distance is around 4%, and he is suspiciously closest to certain Bavarian Beakers in terms of ancient samples which makes me suspect he could be a local.

[Peterski]

Not very similar

Because if he was Slavic then probably from some extinct tribe like the Carantanians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carantania) or like these guys:

https://www.jassa.org/?p=2103

I said "too similar" not "very similar". :)


and he is suspiciously closest to certain Bavarian Beakers in terms of ancient samples which makes me suspect he could be a local.

Yeah these Bavarian Beakers are weirdly eastern-shifted. Maybe they are wrongly dated Medieval samples?

=====

^^^
"Early Czech Slav" samples were also wrongly dated to the Bell Beaker Period at first... Such mistakes happen:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

"Two early Slavs from Bohemia

Two Bohemian Bell Beaker genomes from Allentoft et al. 2015 - RISE568 and RISE569 - are labeled as early Czech Slavs in the new Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint (see rows 148 and 149 in the spreadsheet here).

Obviously these samples were initially wrongly dated to the Bronze Age and misidentified. They really date to 600-900 CE and 660-770 calCE, respectively. It's an unfortunate mistake, but also an interesting situation, because they've been analyzed in great detail in several papers and on this blog, and no one suspected that anything was wrong."

[Token]

Yeah these Bavarian Beakers are weirdly eastern-shifted. Maybe they are wrongly dated Medieval samples?

Now you've gone full paranoic. :lol:

[XenophobicPrussian]

Very interesting. Like you said, good chance of them being misdated(has happened a few times already)and they're simply Beakers or Urnfield(these samples are pretty much identical to Halberstadt_LBA in north-central Germany) but that's pretty rad if they aren't.

If they're dated correctly I still can't just ignore the Bavaria samples though, at most it means proto-Celts/Urnfield were northern European, the Celts kept a caste-esque system for a long time and the area was still diverse.

All 4 samples had the same Y-DNA according to Davidski, this was the only map I was able to find of their I2 clade:

https://i.postimg.cc/rwZJQgdx/L233.png

Can't wait to try a few models on modern central Euros with these new samples, wonder how they prefer them over Germanic.

[Peterski]

Now you've gone full paranoic. :lol:

Nope, just based on the RISE568 / RISE569 mistake, I assume a similar mistake is possible with some other samples too.

RISE568 and RISE569 were assumed to be Bell Beakers at first in 2015, and in 2017 they were dated to the Middle Ages.


(these samples are pretty much identical to Halberstadt_LBA in north-central Germany)

Yes they are, but maybe Halberstadt_LBA were also Proto-Celtic people or something similar?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberstadt (Saxony-Anhalt)

[SharpFork]

They are closest to Scandinavians. Very strange to say the least.
Yes very strange, what the heck happened for Central Europeans to be this southern? It seems like Europeans magically pulled themselves towards one another since the middle ages, with Southern Europeans having more Steppe and Northern less.

[J. Ketch]

Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.02659852 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.02693785 CZE_EBA
0.02844741 DNK_MN_B
0.02860448 Bell_Beaker_England
0.02863652 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02865957 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
0.03033295 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03062984 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03129264 NLD_BA
0.03160033 IRL_BA
0.03228671 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03238384 England_LBA
0.03395100 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
0.03406685 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
0.03431673 England_MBA
0.03536481 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03538381 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03579864 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03596234 SWE_LN
0.03685112 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03726425 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03879941 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso

Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02969530 CZE_EBA
0.03127234 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
0.03143389 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03161895 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03275886 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03307045 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03341150 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03343274 IRL_BA
0.03400888 England_MBA
0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
0.03490486 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03507127 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03514939 DNK_MN_B
0.03557039 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03605340 England_LBA
0.03643242 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03649556 NLD_BA
0.03687678 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03711312 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03767662 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
0.03792013 SWE_LN
0.03816038 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03849249 England_IA

Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
0.03083514 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03134146 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03177048 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03200347 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03238452 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03406376 England_MBA
0.03408697 CZE_EBA
0.03411035 NLD_BA
0.03469075 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03542268 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03560488 IRL_BA
0.03574927 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03605461 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03607637 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03671761 POL_Unetice_EBA
0.03738546 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03800848 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
0.03837378 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03887208 England_IA
0.03986533 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
0.04000541 SWE_Battle_Axe

Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02884425 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03006849 CZE_EBA
0.03074691 IRL_BA
0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
0.03093282 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03211723 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03215635 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03237646 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03303028 DNK_MN_B
0.03417996 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03422824 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03446410 England_MBA
0.03459889 DNK_LN
0.03473913 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03476871 NLD_BA
0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
0.03529332 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03530271 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03596352 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03601677 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03638697 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03722150 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03757043 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03758439 England_IA

[Token]

Yes they are, but maybe Halberstadt_LBA were also Proto-Celtic people or something similar?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberstadt (Saxony-Anhalt)
I'd say they were archaic Celts. There were Celts actively influencing Germanic culture and language in North Germany at the time.

[SharpFork]

Ask your Polish friend, i'm curious too because i still doubt these samples are Celts.
Even if they are Germanic or from Northern Germany they are still more northern than anyone could imagine, I don't believe anyone has so much Steppe in peninsular Europe since the start of the Iron Age.

[Token]

...

If they are correctly dated, i will say 'i told ya' to you and Grace.

[SharpFork]

It's hard to square those samples with the one in Bohemia, the ones in Lech and Empuries2, I agree that there could be a dating mistake.

[Peterski]

Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.02659852 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.02693785 CZE_EBA
0.02844741 DNK_MN_B
0.02860448 Bell_Beaker_England
0.02863652 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02865957 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
0.03033295 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03062984 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03129264 NLD_BA
0.03160033 IRL_BA
0.03228671 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03238384 England_LBA
0.03395100 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
0.03406685 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
0.03431673 England_MBA
0.03536481 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03538381 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03579864 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03596234 SWE_LN
0.03685112 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03726425 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03879941 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso

Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02969530 CZE_EBA
0.03127234 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
0.03143389 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03161895 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03275886 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03307045 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03341150 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03343274 IRL_BA
0.03400888 England_MBA
0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
0.03490486 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03507127 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03514939 DNK_MN_B
0.03557039 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03605340 England_LBA
0.03643242 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03649556 NLD_BA
0.03687678 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03711312 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03767662 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
0.03792013 SWE_LN
0.03816038 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03849249 England_IA

Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
0.03083514 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03134146 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03177048 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03200347 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03238452 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03406376 England_MBA
0.03408697 CZE_EBA
0.03411035 NLD_BA
0.03469075 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03542268 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03560488 IRL_BA
0.03574927 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03605461 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03607637 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03671761 POL_Unetice_EBA
0.03738546 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03800848 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
0.03837378 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03887208 England_IA
0.03986533 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
0.04000541 SWE_Battle_Axe

Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02884425 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03006849 CZE_EBA
0.03074691 IRL_BA
0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
0.03093282 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03211723 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03215635 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03237646 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03303028 DNK_MN_B
0.03417996 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03422824 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03446410 England_MBA
0.03459889 DNK_LN
0.03473913 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03476871 NLD_BA
0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
0.03529332 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03530271 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03596352 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03601677 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03638697 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03722150 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03757043 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03758439 England_IA

Interesting they no longer look Scandinavian if you use ancient samples. All the closest ancient matches are from Non-Germanic areas.

=====

Didn't someone claim before that "Scythian_MDA_o" were ethnic Bastarnians ???

[SharpFork]

If they are correctly dated, i will say 'i told ya' to you and Grace.
Why? Didn't you theorize that Celts were more southern?

[Token]

It's hard to square those samples with the one in Bohemia, the ones in Lech and Empuries2, I agree that there could be a dating mistake.

I believe the Empuries 'Gaul' (as some hypothesized) would fit this framework very well.

[Token]

Why? Didn't you theorize that Celts were more southern?

Initially, but after the Empuries outlier i changed my mind.

[Freeroostah]

They are from Canton Aargau in Switzerland but how do you know they are Iron Age (supposedly 100 BC) and not Bronze or Copper Age?

Is there any official confirmation that they are dated to ca. 100 BCE?

As noted, they are much more northern-shifted than modern Swiss.

If those samples originate from around 100BC Switzerland and score as far as Norway then its possible to be Germanic in origins. Maybe they are related to Cimbri migrants....?

[Peterski]

I believe the Empuries 'Gaul' (as some hypothesized) would fit this framework very well.

Yeah, but what if he was not Gaul but for example Armorican or Hibernian or Briton?

Ancient Greeks had contact with Britain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas


If those samples originate from around 100BC Switzerland then its possible to be Germanic in origins.

Not too early for Germanics in Switzerland?

[SharpFork]

Interesting they no longer look Scandinavian if you use ancient samples. All the closest ancient matches are from Non-Germanic areas.

=====

Didn't someone claim before that "Scythian_MDA_o" were ethnic Bastarnians ???
Tbh that might be because we lack enough Bronze age samples from Scandinavia or Northern Germany.

[J. Ketch]

If they are correctly dated, i will say 'i told ya' to you and Grace.
What are you talking about, I've always held the opinion that La Tene Celts were more Northern than Scandinavians :rolleyes: ;)

[XenophobicPrussian]

It's hard to square those samples with the one in Bohemia, the ones in Lech and Empuries2, I agree that there could be a dating mistake.
Empuires and one of the Bohemian ones actually gives credence to this, but yeah, then you have the French-like Bohemian one and all the southern Lech ones. At most this says northern Euros used to be a lot more racist than they are today.

[SharpFork]

Yeah, but what if he was not Gaul but for example Armorican or Hibernian or Briton?

Ancient Greeks had contact with Britain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
That interpretation was based on the idea that Celts in Southern of Centrla France couldn't have changed so much because of Roman rule and that contintental Celts weren't this Northern, but maybe those assumptions weren't correct. We need to create a coherent model with more samples though.

[Freeroostah]

Not too early for Germanics in Switzerland?

Not really considering the Cimbrian Wars (probably the first ever massive Germanic migration from modern day Denmark)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbrian_War

[Grace O'Malley]

They could be northern Celts. I'm not too far from some of these samples. Obviously the distances aren't close to any moderns.

Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.04190749 Norwegian
0.04451211 Swedish
0.04555708 Icelandic
0.04595731 Grace_scaled
0.04763377 Dutch
0.04884175 Orcadian
0.04893182 Irish
0.04942682 Scottish
0.04994741 Shetlandic
0.05119938 Danish
0.05142766 Afrikaner
0.05147107 Welsh
0.05280137 English
0.05292579 German
0.05448067 French_Brittany
0.05449511 Czech
0.05525978 Slovakian
0.05576292 English_Cornwall
0.05713404 German_East
0.05834048 Austrian
0.06034971 Hungarian
0.06178791 Moldovan_o
0.06274732 Belgian
0.06298421 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.06318391 French_Seine-Maritime

Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.04265581 Swedish
0.04275908 Icelandic
0.04353717 Norwegian
0.04371792 Grace_scaled
0.04402365 Orcadian
0.04427637 Dutch
0.04472942 Scottish
0.04476116 Irish
0.04550625 Welsh
0.04616030 German
0.04662647 Shetlandic
0.04731126 English
0.04771035 Afrikaner
0.04792178 French_Brittany
0.04812475 Danish
0.04828322 German_East
0.04943519 English_Cornwall
0.05116386 Czech
0.05193253 Austrian
0.05481130 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05530325 Slovakian
0.05547181 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.05555950 Hungarian
0.05593465 Belgian
0.05871971 French_Nord

Anyway very interesting and not really expected.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Not really considering the Cimbrian Wars (probably the first ever massive Germanic migration from modern day Denmark)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbrian_War
Yeah these could actually very easily be Cimbri or Teutons, who started invading the Romans around 110 BC.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg/1024px-Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg.png

They pass right by Switzerland.

[SharpFork]

Empuires and one of the Bohemian ones actually gives credence to this, but yeah, then you have the French-like Bohemian one and all the southern Lech ones. At most this says northern Euros used to be a lot more racist than they are today.
I mean only to some extent, the southernmost Lech samples are still 30% Steppe I believe while the highest one excluding the one highest outlier is 52% Steppe, I believe this would support some sort of caste system but not a complete one or at least it formed after significant amount of intermixing happened, even if from just top to bottom(given how those Swiss samples look)

[Token]

As far as i know Hallstatt is already considered an (early) Iron age culture. I'm not sure why you guys are assuming the sample is from 100 BC, that would be roughly the end of the Iron Age. Is there anything that i'm not aware of?

[J. Ketch]

Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.02659852 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.02693785 CZE_EBA
0.02844741 DNK_MN_B
0.02860448 Bell_Beaker_England
0.02863652 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02865957 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
0.03033295 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03062984 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03129264 NLD_BA
0.03160033 IRL_BA
0.03228671 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03238384 England_LBA
0.03395100 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
0.03406685 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
0.03431673 England_MBA
0.03536481 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03538381 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03579864 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03596234 SWE_LN
0.03685112 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03726425 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03879941 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso

Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02969530 CZE_EBA
0.03127234 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
0.03143389 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03161895 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03275886 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03307045 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03341150 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03343274 IRL_BA
0.03400888 England_MBA
0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
0.03490486 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03507127 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03514939 DNK_MN_B
0.03557039 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03605340 England_LBA
0.03643242 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03649556 NLD_BA
0.03687678 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03711312 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03767662 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
0.03792013 SWE_LN
0.03816038 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03849249 England_IA

Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
0.03083514 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03134146 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03177048 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03200347 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03238452 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03406376 England_MBA
0.03408697 CZE_EBA
0.03411035 NLD_BA
0.03469075 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03542268 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03560488 IRL_BA
0.03574927 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03605461 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03607637 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03671761 POL_Unetice_EBA
0.03738546 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03800848 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
0.03837378 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03887208 England_IA
0.03986533 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
0.04000541 SWE_Battle_Axe

Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02884425 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03006849 CZE_EBA
0.03074691 IRL_BA
0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
0.03093282 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03211723 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03215635 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03237646 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03303028 DNK_MN_B
0.03417996 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03422824 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03446410 England_MBA
0.03459889 DNK_LN
0.03473913 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03476871 NLD_BA
0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
0.03529332 CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03530271 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03596352 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03601677 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03638697 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03722150 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03757043 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03758439 England_IA
If these are really Iron Age Celts, why are England IA and Scotland LBA further away from them than Scotland EBA/MBA/BB and England EBA/MBA/BB?

[Grace O'Malley]

If they are correctly dated, i will say 'i told ya' to you and Grace.

I'm not sure what this in reference to? Thanks for posting these interesting samples though.

[SharpFork]

As far as i know Hallstatt is already considered an (early) Iron age culture. I'm not sure why you guys are assuming the sample is from 100 BC, that would be roughly the end of the Iron Age. Is there anything that i'm not aware of?

You mentioned La Tene(450-50 BCE) and Petersky mentioned 100 BCE, not sure where the precise dating comes from, tbh we should wait for the details before speculating as we can build 100 theories all as possible as any other.

[Token]

You mentioned La Tene(450-50 BCE) and Petersky mentioned 100 BCE, not sure where the precise dating comes from, tbh we should wait for the details before speculating as we can build 100 theories all as possible as any other.
I only know they are from the Iron Age, maybe calling it La Tène was too precocious.

[Grace O'Malley]

Looking at unscaled but unscaled does give some strange results.

Distance to: MX195
0.02578284 Norwegian
0.02606281 Grace_unscaled
0.02711835 Swedish
0.02778015 Welsh
0.02787837 Afrikaner
0.02807151 German
0.02813349 Dutch
0.02849624 French_Brittany
0.02857117 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02870161 Icelandic
0.02929875 Irish
0.02959342 Scottish
0.02973348 Orcadian
0.03044136 English
0.03061823 Shetlandic
0.03063097 Danish
0.03080346 Belgian
0.03111374 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03133332 Austrian
0.03142971 English_Cornwall
0.03153554 French_Nord
0.03239497 French_Alsace
0.03284300 French_Paris
0.03393647 Czech
0.03457507 Swiss_German

[J. Ketch]

Comparisons with British Isles people:

Distance to: MX188_scaled
0.02497517 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03074691 IRL_BA
0.03087664 England_CA_EBA
0.03446410 England_MBA
0.03496947 Scotland_MBA
0.03758439 England_IA
0.04416086 Wales_CA_EBA
0.04439941 Scotland_LBA
0.04526137 England_Roman
0.04642032 Orcadian
0.04784262 Irish
0.04838956 Welsh
0.04924562 English
0.05016711 Shetlandic
0.05195102 England_EMBA
0.05256981 English_Cornwall

Distance to: MX190_scaled
0.03030072 Scotland_MBA
0.03070649 England_CA_EBA
0.03406376 England_MBA
0.03560488 IRL_BA
0.03576753 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03830760 Scotland_LBA
0.03887208 England_IA
0.04044366 England_Roman
0.04380038 Wales_CA_EBA
0.04402365 Orcadian
0.04476116 Irish
0.04550625 Welsh
0.04662647 Shetlandic
0.04731126 English
0.04943519 English_Cornwall
0.04975563 England_EMBA

Distance to: MX192_scaled
0.02581798 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03143245 England_CA_EBA
0.03343274 IRL_BA
0.03400888 England_MBA
0.03422868 Scotland_MBA
0.03849249 England_IA
0.04532686 Scotland_LBA
0.04599462 Orcadian
0.04665161 England_Roman
0.04721007 Irish
0.04751994 Wales_CA_EBA
0.04871952 Welsh
0.04935383 Shetlandic
0.04946646 English
0.05315369 English_Cornwall
0.05352516 England_EMBA

Distance to: MX195_scaled
0.02962111 England_CA_EBA
0.03082092 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03160033 IRL_BA
0.03416138 Scotland_MBA
0.03431673 England_MBA
0.04027800 England_IA
0.04557179 Scotland_LBA
0.04824951 Wales_CA_EBA
0.04877287 England_Roman
0.04884175 Orcadian
0.04893182 Irish
0.04994741 Shetlandic
0.05147107 Welsh
0.05280137 English
0.05332082 England_EMBA
0.05576292 English_Cornwall

https://i.postimg.cc/GmcBSmkN/Opera-Snapshot-2020-04-14-144226-vahaduo-github-io.png
https://i.postimg.cc/FKkhTMn8/Opera-Snapshot-2020-04-14-145730-vahaduo-github-io.png

[Grace O'Malley]

It would be interesting to see if Irish and British get a higher percentage of these samples than they do the Hallstatt samples.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Whoever these guys were, modern Swiss definitely prefer Hallstatt/southern shifted Lech samples over them. Swiss scoring no MX in the no Germanic model and their Y-DNA makes it extremely not likely for them to be Cimbri/Teutons imo if their dating of 100 BC is indeed correct. The models using only Scandinavian/British like northern-Euro proxies+Romans are unsurprisingly the worst, while models with a population already "central" consistently come out better.

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829249
44.2 DEU_MA
17.8 DEU_Lech_EBA
11.6 DEU_Lech_MBA
9.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
9.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
8.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829235
44.2 Germanic
37.4 Celt
9.2 ImperialRoman
9.2 Roman


model:


DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.0492 4,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.053941,0.03416, 0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.03 3187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0 .005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA112,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.052625 ,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317
DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0.067184 ,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0.04845, 0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.051034,0. 048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.0046 99,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
DEU_MA:ALH_10,0.12862,0.132019,0.065242,0.047481,0 .045239,0.023985,0.006345,-0.002308,0.002863,0.004009,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,0.004679,0.019137,-0.002254,-0.02386,0.010135,0.005279,-0.009254,0.003868,0.012736,-0.003328,0.012291,-0.000239
DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.038114,0. 036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
DEU_MA:NW_255,0.118376,0.140143,0.060716,0.049742, 0.041546,0.006693,0.020681,0.015692,-0.004909,-0.000364,-0.004384,0.007793,-0.012339,-0.003441,0.026194,-0.006099,-0.025164,0.0019,0.014581,0.003252,0.004617,-0.003833,0.008874,0.023136,-0.001796
DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0.057494, 0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
DEU_MA:STR_480,0.122929,0.135065,0.062979,0.033269 ,0.044931,0.02259,0.00188,0.017307,0.003068,0.0080 18,0.009256,0.000599,0.003271,-0.019405,0.015065,-0.000663,0.002608,0.007601,-0.001257,-0.000375,0.019091,-0.000866,-0.001849,0.010001,0.002515
DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0.055233, 0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.010431,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 1.2773% / 0.01277346
51.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
33.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
12.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
2.2 DEU_Lech_MBA

model:
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.0492 4,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.053941,0.03416, 0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.03 3187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0 .005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA112,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.052625 ,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317[/QUOTE]

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
35.2 MX190_scaled
30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
21.8 MX192_scaled
12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.2 MX188_scaled

model:

ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.03 3187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317


It would be interesting to see if Irish and British get a higher percentage of these samples than they do the Hallstatt samples.
They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.

Target: English
Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
39.6 DEU_MA
33.0 Scotland_LBA
16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
61.4 Scotland_LBA
26.6 DEU_MA
10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

model:

DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.053941,0.03416, 0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.0492 4,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0 .005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA112,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.052625 ,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317
DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0.067184 ,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0.04845, 0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.051034,0. 048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.0046 99,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
DEU_MA:ALH_10,0.12862,0.132019,0.065242,0.047481,0 .045239,0.023985,0.006345,-0.002308,0.002863,0.004009,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,0.004679,0.019137,-0.002254,-0.02386,0.010135,0.005279,-0.009254,0.003868,0.012736,-0.003328,0.012291,-0.000239
DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.038114,0. 036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
DEU_MA:NW_255,0.118376,0.140143,0.060716,0.049742, 0.041546,0.006693,0.020681,0.015692,-0.004909,-0.000364,-0.004384,0.007793,-0.012339,-0.003441,0.026194,-0.006099,-0.025164,0.0019,0.014581,0.003252,0.004617,-0.003833,0.008874,0.023136,-0.001796
DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0.057494, 0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
DEU_MA:STR_480,0.122929,0.135065,0.062979,0.033269 ,0.044931,0.02259,0.00188,0.017307,0.003068,0.0080 18,0.009256,0.000599,0.003271,-0.019405,0.015065,-0.000663,0.002608,0.007601,-0.001257,-0.000375,0.019091,-0.000866,-0.001849,0.010001,0.002515
DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0.055233, 0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.010431,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078
Scotland_LBA:I2859,0.130897,0.140143,0.060716,0.05 2649,0.042162,0.017291,0.00705,0.003692,0.00634,0. 001822,-0.00682,0.004946,-0.019326,-0.016652,0.020765,0.018563,-0.009127,0.003421,0.004148,0.009379,0.008485,0.007 543,0.002711,0.006145,0.007784
Scotland_LBA:I2860,0.136588,0.135065,0.065619,0.05 5233,0.040315,0.023985,0.00517,0.005077,0.000614,-0.002916,-0.005196,0.005545,-0.015907,-0.012524,0.020222,-0.003447,-0.01343,0.005574,-0.002388,-0.003877,0.001622,0.006801,-0.003451,0.002289,0.002994
Scotland_LBA:I2861,0.124067,0.126941,0.063733,0.04 7481,0.032006,0.020638,0.000705,-0.001385,-0.00409,-0.005467,-0.005846,0.009591,-0.019772,-0.014175,0.025787,0.006895,-0.006519,0.005448,0.002765,-0.004377,0.004617,-0.001237,0.001232,0.004579,0.001916
Scotland_LBA:I3130,0.127482,0.132019,0.062225,0.05 5556,0.026159,0.015339,0.011516,0.004846,0.004704,-0.004374,-0.006171,0.005845,-0.017096,-0.022295,0.03013,0.001458,-0.028293,0,0.008673,0.001,0.007861,0.004822,-0.001849,0.003856,0.003832

Target: English
Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
56.0 DEU_MA
44.0 Scotland_LBA

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
67.4 Scotland_LBA
32.6 DEU_MA

model:

MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317
DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0.067184 ,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0.04845, 0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.051034,0. 048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.0046 99,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
DEU_MA:ALH_10,0.12862,0.132019,0.065242,0.047481,0 .045239,0.023985,0.006345,-0.002308,0.002863,0.004009,0.001461,0.003447,-0.011298,0.004679,0.019137,-0.002254,-0.02386,0.010135,0.005279,-0.009254,0.003868,0.012736,-0.003328,0.012291,-0.000239
DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.038114,0. 036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
DEU_MA:NW_255,0.118376,0.140143,0.060716,0.049742, 0.041546,0.006693,0.020681,0.015692,-0.004909,-0.000364,-0.004384,0.007793,-0.012339,-0.003441,0.026194,-0.006099,-0.025164,0.0019,0.014581,0.003252,0.004617,-0.003833,0.008874,0.023136,-0.001796
DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0.057494, 0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
DEU_MA:STR_480,0.122929,0.135065,0.062979,0.033269 ,0.044931,0.02259,0.00188,0.017307,0.003068,0.0080 18,0.009256,0.000599,0.003271,-0.019405,0.015065,-0.000663,0.002608,0.007601,-0.001257,-0.000375,0.019091,-0.000866,-0.001849,0.010001,0.002515
DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0.055233, 0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.010431,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078
Scotland_LBA:I2859,0.130897,0.140143,0.060716,0.05 2649,0.042162,0.017291,0.00705,0.003692,0.00634,0. 001822,-0.00682,0.004946,-0.019326,-0.016652,0.020765,0.018563,-0.009127,0.003421,0.004148,0.009379,0.008485,0.007 543,0.002711,0.006145,0.007784
Scotland_LBA:I2860,0.136588,0.135065,0.065619,0.05 5233,0.040315,0.023985,0.00517,0.005077,0.000614,-0.002916,-0.005196,0.005545,-0.015907,-0.012524,0.020222,-0.003447,-0.01343,0.005574,-0.002388,-0.003877,0.001622,0.006801,-0.003451,0.002289,0.002994
Scotland_LBA:I2861,0.124067,0.126941,0.063733,0.04 7481,0.032006,0.020638,0.000705,-0.001385,-0.00409,-0.005467,-0.005846,0.009591,-0.019772,-0.014175,0.025787,0.006895,-0.006519,0.005448,0.002765,-0.004377,0.004617,-0.001237,0.001232,0.004579,0.001916
Scotland_LBA:I3130,0.127482,0.132019,0.062225,0.05 5556,0.026159,0.015339,0.011516,0.004846,0.004704,-0.004374,-0.006171,0.005845,-0.017096,-0.022295,0.03013,0.001458,-0.028293,0,0.008673,0.001,0.007861,0.004822,-0.001849,0.003856,0.003832

[Grace O'Malley]

Whoever these guys were, modern Swiss definitely prefer Hallstatt/southern shifted Lech samples over them. Swiss scoring no MX in the no Germanic model and their Y-DNA makes it extremely not likely for them to be Cimbri/Teutons imo if their dating of 100 BC is indeed correct. The models using only Scandinavian/British like northern-Euro proxies+Romans are unsurprisingly the worst, while models with a population already "central" consistently come out better.

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829249
44.2 DEU_MA
17.8 DEU_Lech_EBA
11.6 DEU_Lech_MBA
9.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
9.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
8.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829235
44.2 Germanic
37.4 Celt
9.2 ImperialRoman
9.2 Roman


model:



Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 1.2773% / 0.01277346
51.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
33.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
12.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
2.2 DEU_Lech_MBA

model:
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.0492 4,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.053941,0.03416, 0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.03 3187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0 .005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA112,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.052625 ,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317



Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
35.2 MX190_scaled
30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
21.8 MX192_scaled
12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.2 MX188_scaled

model:


They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.

Target: English
Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
39.6 DEU_MA
33.0 Scotland_LBA
16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
61.4 Scotland_LBA
26.6 DEU_MA
10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

model:


Target: English
Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
56.0 DEU_MA
44.0 Scotland_LBA

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
67.4 Scotland_LBA
32.6 DEU_MA

model:


Thanks. I get none with these models either.

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.8717% / 0.01871730
57.8 Scotland_LBA
42.2 DEU_MA

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.8360% / 0.01836007
49.0 Scotland_LBA
39.0 DEU_MA
6.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
6.0 DEU_Lech_EBA

[J. Ketch]

Either these people stayed pure Northern Bell Beaker-like in Switzerland for 2000 years but had little to no genetic influence on others, or they're misdated.

[Grace O'Malley]

Either these people stayed pure Northern Bell Beaker-like for 2000 years in Switzerland but had little to no genetic influence on others, or they're misdated.

They look like early British and Dutch Bell Beakers as far as their plotting.

[coolfrenchguy]

Here are the coordinates, see by yourself. They are from Swiss Iron Age, probably La Tené culture.


MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317

MX188,0.0103,0.0128,0.0159,0.0178,0.0069,0.0071,-0.0007,0,-0.0032,-0.0046,0.0003,0.0005,-0.0014,-0.0154,0.0097,0.0167,0.0038,0.002,-0.0019,0.0084,0.0059,0.0029,-0.0027,0.001,-0.0063
MX190,0.0111,0.0133,0.0158,0.0192,0.0082,0.0109,0. 0031,0.0038,-0.0043,-0.0015,-0.0058,0,-0.0096,-0.0111,0.0102,0.0061,0.0027,-0.0029,-0.0016,0.0061,0.0031,0.008,0.0073,-0.0081,-0.0017
MX192,0.0109,0.0119,0.0176,0.0193,0.0082,0.0083,-0.0037,0.0019,-0.0034,-0.0007,0.0016,-0.0024,-0.0053,-0.0059,0.0145,0.0159,0.0092,0.0025,0,0.0019,0.0067 ,0.0013,-0.0032,0.0017,0.0022
MX195,0.0108,0.0119,0.0172,0.0204,0.0071,0.0094,-0.0004,0.0011,-0.0015,-0.0045,0,0.0015,-0.0071,-0.0065,0.0152,0.0183,0.0069,-0.0041,-0.0046,0.0067,-0.0021,0.003,0.0008,0.0025,0.0011

https://i.imgur.com/P7Qqe8e.png

yes connected to the proto nordic germanic tribes ,in truth they are from the benelux and northern france /germany for the proto celtic tribes they slide down to the south east later in austria/switzerland/east of france/northern italy,the with the hallstatt iron age and the "la téne" culture period ,for example the burgonds as proto-germanic tribe is from southern denmark ,proto-celts and proto-gemanics are really connected they are the cradle of the genuine european civilisation
if you look,after the hercynians they are located in poland,germany,austria and czech republic ,this is after the proto-germanic from the north tribes moves southern,all this it's way before the romanian empire ,so in a larger way yes celts are norther european ,after all it's depend where you are situating your north
proto-germanic tribes core and the halttstat iron age/la téne core

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png/300px-Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png
Hercynia

Eastern Celts (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eastern_Celts&action=edit&redlink=1)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Celtic_peoples_and_tribes#cite_not e-malloryadams-1)

Anartes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anartes)/Anartoi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anartoi) – Celts assimilated by Dacians.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Celtic_peoples_and_tribes#cite_not e-Ioana_A._Oltean_2007,_p._47-2) Areas of modern Slovakia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia) and modern Northern Hungary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary), north of the river Tysia/Tibiscus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisza) (Tisza). They lived in the east part of the Hercynia Silva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest) (Hercynian Forest).
Boii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Celtic_peoples_and_tribes#cite_not e-malloryadams-1)– a tribal confederation, originally from today's Bohemia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia) (Western Czech Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic)) that dwelt in the Hercynia Silva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest) and dispersed through migrations to other regions of Europe, to areas of modern Slovakia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia), Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany), Austria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria), Hungary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) and Northern Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Celtic_peoples_and_tribes#cite_not e-boii-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Celtic_peoples_and_tribes#cite_not e-:0-4)

Boii tribes of unknown names in the Hercynia Silva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest) - roughly in today's Bohemia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia)


Cotini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotini) – areas of modern Slovakia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia), west of the Anartes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anartes), and areas of Western Hungary, south of Lacus Pelsodis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Balaton)/Pelso (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Balaton) (Lake Balaton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Balaton)).
Lugii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii) – areas of modern southwestern and southern Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland); also may have been a Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Tribes) tribe.
Osi/Osii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osi_%28ancient_tribe%29) – areas of modern Slovakia[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Celtic_peoples_and_tribes#cite_not e-5)
Volcae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae) - a tribal confederation, originally from today's Moravia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravia) (Eastern Czech Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic)), Central and Upper Danube basin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_basin) (Slovakia, Austria, Southern Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Germany)), dwelt in Hercynia Silva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest), north of the Danuvius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube) (Danube), but dispersed through migrations to other regions of Europe (Southern Gaul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul)) and Asia Minor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor)/Anatolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) (Galatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia)).

Volcae tribes of unknown names in the Hercynia Silva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest) - roughly in today's Moravia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravia).

[Rocinante]

Target: MX195_scaled
Distance: 2.4486% / 0.02448641
50.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
30.6 Early_European_Farmer
11.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
5.0 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
2.2 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: MX192_scaled
Distance: 2.5943% / 0.02594313
49.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
32.2 Early_European_Farmer
10.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
6.8 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.2 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4 Ancient_American

Target: MX190_scaled
Distance: 2.4890% / 0.02488996
54.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
30.0 Early_European_Farmer
15.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

Target: MX188_scaled
Distance: 1.7278% / 0.01727845
51.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
32.2 Early_European_Farmer
8.6 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
7.0 Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Africa_Mesolithic

[Altaison]

Celts must be really divergent phenotype wise. They had Central European, Northern European and even some darker Southern European look depending on tribe, geography etc.

[Imperator Biff]

Real authentic genuine celts will come out similar to that British like Gaul from empuries (I8206)
They were definitely a lot more northern than those Lech Valley MBA samples but certainly not Scandinavian levels of steppe ancestry.

[JamesBond007]

Real authentic genuine celts will come out similar to that British like Gaul from empuries (I8206)
They were definitely a lot more northern than those Lech Valley MBA samples but certainly not Scandinavian levels of steppe ancestry.

What do you think about the ancient Irish Raithlin sample(s) and English Iron age samples ? Sorry, if this is a stupid question but I'm not an expert on this stuff.

[Gota_type_]

I agree, but prior to the expansion there would have been an original Proto-Celtic people living somewhere. It is settled that Celtic language and culture expanded from Central Europe though, and La Tené is the culture that succeded Hallstatt, which is considered Proto-Celtic. Celtic art in particular is actually La Tené art.

Look at the dark blue: pre-celtic.

I have always seen that they are named pre-celtic or proto-celtic. Maybe here there is the real deal:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

[Token]

Either these people stayed pure Northern Bell Beaker-like in Switzerland for 2000 years but had little to no genetic influence on others, or they're misdated.

Let's not exaggerate, they don't have as much steppe as Dutch Beakers. They are just very slightly above North European steppe level. Apparently, if they are indeed Iron Age as Davidski claims, there is a good chance they are from a massive Hallstatt burial (the largest in Switzerland) since this is one of the hugest sites of Iron Age Switzerland. Information on the site posted by an Anthrogenica member: https://www.ag.ch/media/kanton_aargau/bks/dokumente_1/kultur/kantonsarchaeologie/sehenswuerdigkeiten_1/BKSKA_Sehenswuerdigkeiten_Unterlunkhofen_baerhau.p df

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Distance to: Viriato
0.02675706 Hallstatt_Celt:DA111
0.03394676 Iberia_BA
0.04533877 Nordic_BA
0.04579137 MX190
0.04849712 Mycenaean
0.05079488 MX192
0.05198288 MX188
0.05247485 MX195
0.05992303 Armenia_MBA
0.06143201 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
0.06946512 North_African
0.08699746 Yoruba

[Token]

Whoever these guys were, modern Swiss definitely prefer Hallstatt/southern shifted Lech samples over them. Swiss scoring no MX in the no Germanic model and their Y-DNA makes it extremely not likely for them to be Cimbri/Teutons imo if their dating of 100 BC is indeed correct. The models using only Scandinavian/British like northern-Euro proxies+Romans are unsurprisingly the worst, while models with a population already "central" consistently come out better.

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829249
44.2 DEU_MA
17.8 DEU_Lech_EBA
11.6 DEU_Lech_MBA
9.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
9.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
8.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8292% / 0.00829235
44.2 Germanic
37.4 Celt
9.2 ImperialRoman
9.2 Roman


model:



Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 1.2773% / 0.01277346
51.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
33.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
12.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
2.2 DEU_Lech_MBA

model:
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.0492 4,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.053941,0.03416, 0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.03 3187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010 068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0 .005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA112,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.052625 ,0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 2.8792% / 0.02879185
35.2 MX190_scaled
30.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
21.8 MX192_scaled
12.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.2 MX188_scaled

model:


They score none, as well as if you only use them without Hallstatt/Lech, and the fits are worse.

Target: English
Distance: 0.8788% / 0.00878765
39.6 DEU_MA
33.0 Scotland_LBA
16.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
10.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.1955% / 0.01195493
61.4 Scotland_LBA
26.6 DEU_MA
10.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
2.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany

model:


Target: English
Distance: 1.1869% / 0.01186930
56.0 DEU_MA
44.0 Scotland_LBA

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.2403% / 0.01240279
67.4 Scotland_LBA
32.6 DEU_MA

model:


You can't reject hypothesis with Global25. G25 is meant to reproduce models deemed feasible by Admixtools (quoting Davidski here). But you can get good fits with these samples:


Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.2019% / 0.01201917
56.6 Italic_IA
26.8 Celtic
10.6 DEU_MA
6.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.9720% / 0.00972016
42.0 Italic_IA
40.2 DEU_MA
15.4 Celtic
2.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Not only the fits are good, but the models also make a lot of sense. A lot of Germanic in Swiss Germans, and more Celtic and Italic in Frenchies. By the way, i used all of the Iron Age Swiss samples for Celtic and all of the Iron Age Italian samples for Italic_IA.

[SharpFork]

Look at the dark blue: pre-celtic.

I have always seen that they are named pre-celtic or proto-celtic. Maybe here there is the real deal:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG
I believe the "pre-Celtic" label(the "proto-Celtic" one is erroneous, you can't have "proto-Cetls" and Celts in the same place at the same time, that's contradictory to the meaning of a "proto-language") is given to Lusitanians and some others to indicate that they are IE but came before Celts.

[J. Ketch]

The Constance and St Gallen samples here look a lot more realistic for authentic Celts or Proto-Celts, especially coupled with the Lech EBA/MBA samples. The picture is becoming clearer.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DFu7cwJOKbA/XpbfWbobnkI/AAAAAAAAI0k/_NzreMfrqU8Pepfukackpm4UTnvO_ar-QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Vahaduo%2BGlobal%2B25%2BNorth%2BEurope%2BPCA.png

[SharpFork]

There are still many >50% Steppe samples and only few ~30% Steppe samples, they were not like Basques.

[Kamal900]

They do indeed cluster the closest to Northern Europeans, Germanic and Insular Celtic peoples. Maybe they're of Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe when they got assimilated by the Celtic migrants coming from Western Europe without changing much of their genes? I guess the Romans did indeed changed their genes due to heavy admixture and so on.

[SharpFork]

They do indeed cluster the closest to Northern Europeans, Germanic and Insular Celtic peoples. Maybe they're of Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe when they got assimilated by the Celtic migrants coming from Western Europe without changing much of their genes? I guess the Romans did indeed changed their genes due to heavy admixture and so on.
Celts did not come from Western Europe into Switzerland, the core Hallstatt and La Tene region were around Southern and Middle Germany and surrounding regions respectively.

[Kamal900]

Celts did not come from Western Europe into Switzerland, the core Hallstatt and La Tene region were around Southern and Middle Germany and surrounding regions respectively.

Hmm, then they could be mostly of Bell Beaker origins rather than coming from assimilated natives or mixed with the natives. I mean, the fact that the Swiss and others are genetically distinct from the late La Tene culture tells us that there had been admixtures and migrations to the region in Roman and early middle age periods. The Celts of Western Europe like France and Iberia seem genetically more or less distinct from these Celts, no?

[J. Ketch]

There are still many >50% Steppe samples and only few ~30% Steppe samples, they were not like Basques.
I never claimed they were. I would expect all the >50% Yamnaya samples in Switzerland to be EBA/BB/CWC.

[SharpFork]

I never claimed they were. I would expect all the >50% Yamnaya samples in Switzerland to be EBA/BB/CWC.
There is even a 70% Steppe sample among the Landschaft something samples.

I still am curious where the low Steppe samples(30-35%) come from, we need dating to properly theorize though.

[ninjaboy]

This is possible. Maybe it will turn out that we are heavily underestimating the impact of Romans in Europe. But these samples are too northern and i'm still trying to digest the idea. What i'm sure is that La Tené is as Celtic as you can get.

At first, the Romans couldn't tell the Celts and Germanic people apart and often confused them for each other. Only later they found out that Celts and Germanic people were distinct ethnic groups and they started to differentiate between the two. The fact is that both were described as tall, very pale, light-haired and- blue-eyed people. Anyways, who would have thought that the Celts originated in Germany/Austria while ALL Germanic tribes originated in Scandivanivia to move from there to Germany?

[Raizen]

There is even a 70% Steppe sample among the Landschaft something samples.

I still am curious where the low Steppe samples(30-35%) come from, we need dating to properly theorize though.

he is corded ware and r1b.

[Raizen]

The Constance and St Gallen samples here look a lot more realistic for authentic Celts or Proto-Celts, especially coupled with the Lech EBA/MBA samples. The picture is becoming clearer.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DFu7cwJOKbA/XpbfWbobnkI/AAAAAAAAI0k/_NzreMfrqU8Pepfukackpm4UTnvO_ar-QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Vahaduo%2BGlobal%2B25%2BNorth%2BEurope%2BPCA.png

the constance and st gallen samples are of early bronze age samples of mixed bb and eef stock, not celts.

[J. Ketch]

the constance and st gallen samples are of early bronze age samples of mixed bb and eef stock, not celts.
Who exactly do you think the Celts of Switzerland were descended from?

[Gota_type_]

I believe the "pre-Celtic" label(the "proto-Celtic" one is erroneous, you can't have "proto-Cetls" and Celts in the same place at the same time, that's contradictory to the meaning of a "proto-language") is given to Lusitanians and some others to indicate that they are IE but came before Celts.

I have seen images of prerroman people in Spain and sometimes they write proto-celtic and other pre-celtic. In the first case we could think about the core of "celtic" that later expanded to the surrounded areas. In the 2º case we would be talking about people living there previously to the celts and adapting to the culture. There are some theories that say that celts came from the West.

[sailormoon]

https://i.imgur.com/P7Qqe8e.png

Anatolia_Barcin_N is the early Neolithic sample from Barcin, Turkey (Pinhasi et al. 2015), which also has the high level of WHG ancestry. Probably these Swiss Iron Age samples are a mixture of this Anatolian group from Turkey and Yamnaya herders from southern Russia.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xGIG-soMtsuZbxnxOQObQ0An5CcVvQk_pxKK2xt_ZWg=w200-h341-no



Felix at GGT is in the process of uploading the genomes from the recent Pinhasi et al. paper. The file for the early Neolithic sample from Barcin, Turkey, is basically ready. I analyzed it with my K8 model and got these results (click on the image to enlarge).

I also ran an Identical-by-State (IBS) affinity test using the Human Origins dataset and around 1800 SNPs. The results broadly back up the K8 analysis, with southern Europeans topping the list.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/first-look-at-ancient-genome-from.html

[Sheva]

Then finally they might let go off their fantasy of being descending from Spaniards?

[Raizen]

Who exactly do you think the Celts of Switzerland were descended from?

clearly they weren't descended from the aforementioned populations.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Other Ancient Swiss samples from Furtwaengler et al 2020. These are not as northern shifted.


Scaled


Alsace:SX32,0.135449,0.122879,0.053174,0.0646,0.02 4312,0.025937,0.00799,0.010615,-0.005931,-0.006743,-0.004872,-0.002248,-0.007284,-0.018029,0.020494,0.023468,0.019297,-0.009248,0.003394,0.016508,0.006489,0.002102,-0.005053,-0.004458,0.00467
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585, 0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.121791,0.126941,0.04676 3,0.032623,0.05201,0.009761,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.013294,0.016766,0.005196,0.007793,-0.018731,-0.022432,0.018322,0.028109,0.008605,-0.002407,-0.004148,0.002876,-0.003868,0.005317,-0.005176,-0.003374,-0.001916
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.121791,0.122879,0.05317 4,0.050388,0.031083,0.018686,-0.000235,0.003,0.002863,-0.001093,-0.00341,0.004796,-0.008325,-0.021744,0.020901,0.019888,0.008345,-0.004434,0.00176,0.012756,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.012448,0.006386,-0.002155
Constance:MX252,0.124067,0.137096,0.05242,0.039729 ,0.03693,0.009203,-0.00893,0.000692,0.016157,0.013485,0.001299,0.0019 48,-0.010406,-0.013487,0.017236,0.011005,-0.007302,0.003801,0.004399,0.003752,0.010482,-0.003215,-0.011955,0.001084,-0.005269
Constance:MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.055437,0.024 871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.017794,0.02 4784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Constance:MX257,0.120652,0.129988,0.046009,0.04134 4,0.040623,0.003068,-0.00329,0.001615,0.010022,0.014397,-0.006658,0.001499,-0.007582,-0.018304,0.020494,-0.001724,-0.000522,-0.001774,0.015964,-0.002501,-0.001747,-0.001237,-0.00037,-0.007591,0.000359
Constance:MX265,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163, 0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012 017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023
Constance:MX275,0.126344,0.128972,0.045632,0.04005 2,0.03139,0.005578,-0.00047,0.002308,0.018407,0.021504,-0.003573,0.007943,-0.026313,-0.014726,0.021444,0.008618,-0.000261,0.006841,0.006411,-0.003627,0.001123,0.012984,0.001356,-0.015183,0.002754
Constance:MX279,0.135449,0.138112,0.053928,0.05264 9,0.039392,0.013945,-0.002115,-0.004846,0.005931,0.015308,-0.010555,0.008243,-0.006541,-0.014175,0.013165,0.015778,0.011995,0.002154,-0.003017,-0.001,0.002246,0.003462,-0.012571,0.006145,-0.0097
Constance:MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322,0.02357 9,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Constance:MX286,0.12862,0.13405,0.049026,0.030685, 0.041854,0.005857,-0.00235,0.001846,0.012885,0.020046,-0.005684,0.004046,-0.017839,-0.015551,0.012351,0.01432,0.011083,0.005574,-0.00352,0.001376,0.007362,0.018053,0.007641,-0.011809,-0.000239
Constance:MX288,0.132035,0.132019,0.061094,0.04069 8,0.048932,0.006972,0.008695,0.00923,0.010635,0.01 5672,-0.006333,0.003897,-0.013082,-0.007844,0.017508,0.01127,0.005737,-0.0019,0.000503,0.006003,0.015597,0.005193,-0.00037,-0.003856,0.000838
St_Gallen:SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0.012274 ,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.013908,0.02 77,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479

Unscaled


Alsace:SX32,0.0119,0.0121,0.0141,0.02,0.0079,0.009 3,0.0034,0.0046,-0.0029,-0.0037,-0.003,-0.0015,-0.0049,-0.0131,0.0151,0.0177,0.0148,-0.0073,0.0027,0.0132,0.0052,0.0017,-0.0041,-0.0037,0.0039
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.02 85,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.0107,0.0125,0.0124,0.01 01,0.0169,0.0035,-0.0023,-0.001,0.0065,0.0092,0.0032,0.0052,-0.0126,-0.0163,0.0135,0.0212,0.0066,-0.0019,-0.0033,0.0023,-0.0031,0.0043,-0.0042,-0.0028,-0.0016
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.0107,0.0121,0.0141,0.01 56,0.0101,0.0067,-0.0001,0.0013,0.0014,-0.0006,-0.0021,0.0032,-0.0056,-0.0158,0.0154,0.015,0.0064,-0.0035,0.0014,0.0102,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0101,0.0053,-0.0018
Constance:MX252,0.0109,0.0135,0.0139,0.0123,0.012, 0.0033,-0.0038,0.0003,0.0079,0.0074,0.0008,0.0013,-0.007,-0.0098,0.0127,0.0083,-0.0056,0.003,0.0035,0.003,0.0084,-0.0026,-0.0097,0.0009,-0.0044
Constance:MX254_2,0.0115,0.0134,0.0147,0.0077,0.01 36,0.0009,0.002,0.0027,0.0087,0.0136,-0.0027,0.005,-0.0111,-0.0104,0.0023,0.0137,0.0111,0.0028,-0.0019,0.0004,-0.0034,0.009,0.0012,-0.0087,0.0011
Constance:MX257,0.0106,0.0128,0.0122,0.0128,0.0132 ,0.0011,-0.0014,0.0007,0.0049,0.0079,-0.0041,0.001,-0.0051,-0.0133,0.0151,-0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0014,0.0127,-0.002,-0.0014,-0.001,-0.0003,-0.0063,0.0003
Constance:MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152 ,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067
Constance:MX275,0.0111,0.0127,0.0121,0.0124,0.0102 ,0.002,-0.0002,0.001,0.009,0.0118,-0.0022,0.0053,-0.0177,-0.0107,0.0158,0.0065,-0.0002,0.0054,0.0051,-0.0029,0.0009,0.0105,0.0011,-0.0126,0.0023
Constance:MX279,0.0119,0.0136,0.0143,0.0163,0.0128 ,0.005,-0.0009,-0.0021,0.0029,0.0084,-0.0065,0.0055,-0.0044,-0.0103,0.0097,0.0119,0.0092,0.0017,-0.0024,-0.0008,0.0018,0.0028,-0.0102,0.0051,-0.0081
Constance:MX283,0.0111,0.0135,0.0152,0.0073,0.0165 ,-0.0011,0.0005,0.0013,0.0098,0.0193,-0.0034,0.0064,-0.01,-0.0066,-0.0006,0.0169,0.0128,0.0001,0.0032,-0.0019,-0.0012,0.0052,-0.0037,-0.0085,0.0012
Constance:MX286,0.0113,0.0132,0.013,0.0095,0.0136, 0.0021,-0.001,0.0008,0.0063,0.011,-0.0035,0.0027,-0.012,-0.0113,0.0091,0.0108,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0028,0.0011,0.0059,0.0146,0.0062,-0.0098,-0.0002
Constance:MX288,0.0116,0.013,0.0162,0.0126,0.0159, 0.0025,0.0037,0.004,0.0052,0.0086,-0.0039,0.0026,-0.0088,-0.0057,0.0129,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0048,0.0125,0.0042,-0.0003,-0.0032,0.0007
St_Gallen:SX20,0.0114,0.0145,0.0148,0.0038,0.0179, 0.0033,0.0005,0.0008,0.0068,0.0152,-0.0024,0.0084,-0.0132,-0.0056,0.0039,-0.0067,-0.0133,-0.003,0.0008,-0.0068,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0022,-0.0052,-0.004

[brennus dux gallorum]

all IndoEuropeans were "northern European"

The only sure is that Celts as a linguocultural group came from the same subgroup with the (genetically equally northern) Italics, instead of coming from the subgroup of Germanics/Balto-slavs

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

The one from St. Gallen (Eastern Switzerland Germanic Canton) caught my attention as it is quite close to a modern Basque\Iberian.


Target: St_Gallen:SX20
Distance: 2.4222% / 0.02422226
76.0 Basque
12.2 Balto_Slavic_North
8.4 Greek_Albanian
3.4 Northwest_European




Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20
0.03170147 Basque
0.03749692 Belgian_French
0.04818528 Iberian
0.06029530 Northwest_European
0.06161228 North_Sea_Germanic
0.06551486 Balkan
0.06631236 Central_European
0.07260614 Scando_Germanic
0.07360623 Greek_Albanian
0.08978597 Polish_Ukrainian
0.10511355 Sicilian_Maltese
0.11101468 Balto_Slavic_South
0.11142811 Balto_Slavic_North
0.13360026 Finnic
0.13925607 European_Jewish
0.15240539 West_Turkish
0.16469766 Circassian
0.17427253 Levant
0.17453272 Azeri
0.17547694 Armenian_Assyrian
0.18694591 Abkhasian_Georgian
0.19241452 Iranian
0.19742813 Tajik
0.21328751 Udmurt
0.21576389 Northeast_African

[brennus dux gallorum]

Then finally they might let go off their fantasy of being descending from Spaniards?

Do you realize that "spaniards" as a nation did not exist in bronze age?

[Tauromachos]

Do you realize that "spaniards" as a nation did not exist in bronze age?

Castilllians do exist since the Stone Age

[brennus dux gallorum]

Castilllians do exist since the Stone Age

in fact they pre-dated neanderthals

[brennus dux gallorum]

At first, the Romans couldn't tell the Celts and Germanic people apart and often confused them for each other. Only later they found out that Celts and Germanic people were distinct ethnic groups and they started to differentiate between the two. The fact is that both were described as tall, very pale, light-haired and- blue-eyed people. Anyways, who would have thought that the Celts originated in Germany/Austria while ALL Germanic tribes originated in Scandivanivia to move from there to Germany?

not all Celts were described as pale, for example if i am not mistaken those who lived in southern England and wales were described as dark

anyway, you, as everyone here make the mistake to see Celts as a racial group instead of linguo-cultural which they really were, and as a linguocultural group they were originated from the same subclade with Italics, just like Germanics came from the same subclade with Balto-slavs

[J. Ketch]

clearly they weren't descended from the aforementioned populations.
That's a bold statement.

[Raizen]

That's a bold statement.

i mean, the ones you cited and the ones posted by brás garcias de mascarenhas are bronze age samples. there were no celts during the bronze age. clearly these iron age samples aren't descended from these basque-like bronze age people.

[Sheva]

Do you realize that "spaniards" as a nation did not exist in bronze age?

Good grief, the same people. Genes do not magically transform with rise of a nation. Were the people located in the territories of what became Spain radically different?
Or is quarreling for the sake of it a favorite pastime on this forum?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Good grief, the same people. Genes do not magically transform with rise of a nation. Were the people located in the territories of what became Spain radically different?
Or is quarreling for the sake of it a favorite pastime on this forum?

With only problem being that "celtic genes" is something that doesn't exist, except if we talk about proto-celts.

Celts were a linguocultural, not a racial group, and racially the celts who lived in Spain were southern European, just like those who lived in Britain were Northern European

But linguoculturally all celts were from the same subclade with Italics, which was different from the subclades that germans and Balto-slavs made up

[J. Ketch]

i mean, the ones you cited and the ones posted by brás garcias de mascarenhas are bronze age samples. there were no celts during the bronze age. clearly these iron age samples aren't descended from these basque-like bronze age people.
I don't know where you got the information that they're all Early Bronze Age, but the ones on the North Euro PCA are mostly French like, not Basque.

Closest modern populations

Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20
0.02962418 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03088535 French_Occitanie
0.03111555 French_Auvergne
0.03197608 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.03291915 Basque_French
0.03300421 French_South
0.03484421 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03543462 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03629089 Spanish_Lleida
0.03654432 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03657065 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03682866 Spanish_Aragon
0.03689219 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03696268 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03747817 Spanish_Penedes
0.03768521 Spanish_Valencia
0.03780898 Swiss_German
0.03781292 Spanish_Cataluna
0.03788158 Spanish_Girona
0.03884917 Swiss_French
0.03936236 Spanish_Navarra
0.04042572 French_Paris
0.04063183 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04078563 French_Alsace
0.04080754 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: Constance:MX288
0.02803595 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03083126 French_Brittany
0.03226829 Welsh
0.03365536 Belgian
0.03386533 German
0.03455477 English
0.03524208 French_Nord
0.03531194 English_Cornwall
0.03547364 French_Paris
0.03597856 Dutch
0.03637184 Afrikaner
0.03740782 Scottish
0.03747238 Orcadian
0.03769526 French_Alsace
0.03904193 Swiss_German
0.03918642 Irish
0.03942022 French_Occitanie
0.03956136 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04058490 Norwegian
0.04090187 Austrian
0.04090947 Danish
0.04220673 Icelandic
0.04266048 Swedish
0.04378610 Shetlandic
0.04389883 French_Auvergne

Distance to: Constance:MX286
0.03509933 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03631098 French_Occitanie
0.03674378 French_Paris
0.03750768 Swiss_French
0.03787910 French_Auvergne
0.03897932 French_Nord
0.03925783 Belgian
0.03950400 Swiss_German
0.04126165 French_Alsace
0.04275229 French_Brittany
0.04352278 Spanish_Soria
0.04408552 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04414478 Spanish_Penedes
0.04466215 French_Provence
0.04491353 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04501119 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04540743 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04575465 Afrikaner
0.04640170 Spanish_Girona
0.04691225 Welsh
0.04694450 German
0.04760088 French_South
0.04813775 Spanish_Lleida
0.04854709 Spanish_Castello
0.04881681 Spanish_Mallorca

Distance to: Constance:MX283
0.03230589 Spanish_Soria
0.03981424 French_Auvergne
0.03988847 French_Occitanie
0.04058295 French_South
0.04108385 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04109183 Spanish_Castello
0.04238192 Spanish_Girona
0.04344088 Spanish_Penedes
0.04357718 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04367458 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04370804 Swiss_French
0.04373152 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04483558 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04491178 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04500153 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04501239 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04516028 Spanish_Lleida
0.04530823 French_Paris
0.04594034 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04600792 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04695622 Spanish_Baleares
0.04780595 Basque_Spanish
0.04839098 French_Provence
0.04846419 Spanish_Valencia
0.04852166 French_Pas-de-Calais

Distance to: Constance:MX279
0.03559744 French_Brittany
0.03697281 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03817387 Welsh
0.03890740 German
0.03909598 English
0.03980417 Orcadian
0.04009753 Belgian
0.04023323 Scottish
0.04060928 Irish
0.04128048 Dutch
0.04137305 French_Paris
0.04151491 English_Cornwall
0.04228042 French_Nord
0.04229089 Norwegian
0.04230891 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04290342 Afrikaner
0.04476497 Icelandic
0.04551239 French_Alsace
0.04568793 Austrian
0.04573442 Shetlandic
0.04632743 Swiss_German
0.04648867 Danish
0.04834292 Swedish
0.05030287 French_Occitanie
0.05192864 German_East

Distance to: Constance:MX275
0.04154491 French_Occitanie
0.04172188 French_Paris
0.04186804 Belgian
0.04245748 French_Nord
0.04291958 French_Brittany
0.04293117 Swiss_German
0.04462638 French_Auvergne
0.04493266 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04532147 Afrikaner
0.04597418 French_Alsace
0.04645036 Welsh
0.04684180 Swiss_French
0.04693606 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04907027 English
0.04917641 English_Cornwall
0.04942325 Orcadian
0.05018261 Spanish_Penedes
0.05059625 Scottish
0.05125731 German
0.05130226 French_South
0.05161571 Irish
0.05205530 French_Provence
0.05260661 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.05304746 Spanish_Girona
0.05317586 Dutch

Distance to: Constance:MX265
0.03969155 Serbian
0.03976922 Croatian
0.04022650 Slovenian
0.04250646 Bosnian
0.04304069 Austrian
0.04336393 Hungarian
0.04476266 Montenegrin
0.04493139 Romanian
0.04566084 French_Alsace
0.04699986 Swiss_German
0.04763326 Italian_Northeast
0.04810671 Macedonian
0.04859118 French_Nord
0.04911344 German_East
0.05070030 French_Auvergne
0.05089369 Bulgarian
0.05114871 German
0.05127880 French_Occitanie
0.05273871 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.05321329 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05323399 Belgian
0.05359229 Czech
0.05502545 Moldovan
0.05510203 French_Provence
0.05576015 Spanish_Barcelones

Distance to: Constance:MX257
0.03452833 French_Nord
0.03485311 Afrikaner
0.03489344 Belgian
0.03616876 Swiss_German
0.03777170 French_Brittany
0.03800962 French_Paris
0.03843301 French_Alsace
0.03960965 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04026371 Welsh
0.04026807 French_Occitanie
0.04046330 German
0.04126861 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04149055 Orcadian
0.04229889 English_Cornwall
0.04231016 French_Auvergne
0.04242371 English
0.04251794 Scottish
0.04278253 Dutch
0.04367909 Austrian
0.04485161 Swiss_French
0.04502428 Irish
0.04680492 Danish
0.04811281 Shetlandic
0.04931205 French_Provence
0.04968622 Spanish_Penedes

Distance to: Constance:MX254_2
0.03464891 French_Occitanie
0.03505670 French_Auvergne
0.03540269 Spanish_Soria
0.03686544 Swiss_French
0.03715282 French_Paris
0.03914016 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03991851 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04038952 French_Nord
0.04044978 Swiss_German
0.04088626 Spanish_Penedes
0.04124982 Spanish_Girona
0.04142974 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04170260 French_Alsace
0.04173687 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04206262 Belgian
0.04243459 French_South
0.04250244 French_Provence
0.04297874 Spanish_Castello
0.04365573 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04396880 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04420092 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04438978 Spanish_Lleida
0.04467872 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04474864 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04633059 Spanish_Baleares

Distance to: Constance:MX252
0.02867450 French_Brittany
0.02899975 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02930563 French_Nord
0.03000764 Belgian
0.03186998 Afrikaner
0.03218271 Welsh
0.03246593 French_Paris
0.03316263 English
0.03337684 French_Alsace
0.03370685 English_Cornwall
0.03421264 Orcadian
0.03429417 Swiss_German
0.03547890 German
0.03559760 French_Occitanie
0.03603756 Scottish
0.03778936 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03779164 Dutch
0.03782317 Irish
0.03964841 French_Auvergne
0.04251057 Austrian
0.04339650 Danish
0.04385303 Icelandic
0.04431416 Swiss_French
0.04473173 Norwegian
0.04491427 Shetlandic

Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64
0.03799296 Afrikaner
0.03833179 Dutch
0.04002283 Norwegian
0.04041198 Scottish
0.04065106 Irish
0.04066353 Welsh
0.04077529 Orcadian
0.04112688 French_Brittany
0.04180686 English
0.04347671 Icelandic
0.04351275 German
0.04391962 Danish
0.04455331 Shetlandic
0.04467514 English_Cornwall
0.04563719 Swedish
0.04609869 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04635170 Belgian
0.04931600 French_Nord
0.05001031 Austrian
0.05106244 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05193586 French_Paris
0.05267469 French_Alsace
0.05391377 Swiss_German
0.05629058 Czech
0.05671703 German_East

Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63
0.04214376 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04385189 French_Paris
0.04495073 Belgian
0.04524909 Spanish_Soria
0.04573382 French_Occitanie
0.04617452 French_Nord
0.04632616 French_Brittany
0.04684478 French_Auvergne
0.04716852 Swiss_German
0.04735093 Swiss_French
0.04828434 Afrikaner
0.04895322 French_Alsace
0.05016951 Welsh
0.05096162 Spanish_Penedes
0.05111527 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05227525 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.05303119 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.05335623 German
0.05336671 French_Provence
0.05337996 English_Cornwall
0.05351699 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.05354011 Spanish_Girona
0.05378487 English
0.05475218 French_South
0.05483078 Dutch

Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25
0.06993801 Icelandic
0.07070471 Swedish
0.07173822 Norwegian
0.07280312 Finnish
0.07425575 Shetlandic
0.07571393 Irish
0.07606833 Ingrian
0.07678251 Orcadian
0.07682608 Dutch
0.07696303 Danish
0.07707809 Scottish
0.07980351 Russian_Tver
0.08026368 Russian_Kostroma
0.08058397 Russian_Kursk
0.08223169 English
0.08226220 Russian_Orel
0.08241756 German_East
0.08252992 Mordovian
0.08278382 Estonian
0.08312881 Czech
0.08316832 Welsh
0.08351456 Finnish_East
0.08361867 Polish
0.08422633 Cossack_Kuban
0.08427535 Moldovan_o

Distance to: Alsace:SX32
0.05203173 Norwegian
0.05278465 Swedish
0.05375439 Icelandic
0.05501683 Dutch
0.05619559 Irish
0.05626544 Danish
0.05723584 Scottish
0.05734577 Orcadian
0.05751033 Welsh
0.05803385 German
0.05835849 Shetlandic
0.05897453 English
0.05924862 Afrikaner
0.05930444 Slovakian
0.05985346 French_Brittany
0.06092336 Czech
0.06221253 Austrian
0.06262443 English_Cornwall
0.06351124 German_East
0.06480983 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.06635193 Hungarian
0.06646442 Moldovan_o
0.06671820 Belgian
0.06688318 French_Seine-Maritime
0.06949221 French_Nord


Closest ancient populations

Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20
0.02983132 Iberia_North_IA
0.03306066 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.03714842 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
0.04296964 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.04336043 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.04355727 DEU_Roman
0.04376282 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.04462269 DEU_Lech_MBA
0.04525729 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.04545491 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.04576462 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.04580784 Iberia_East_IA
0.04627833 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.04691385 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04716263 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.04783207 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.04814215 Scythian_HUN
0.04835893 ITA_Etruscan
0.04852996 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.04854718 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA
0.04926374 TZA_Zanzibar_Euro_outlier
0.05020003 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.05022880 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.05049328 Iberia_Menorca_LBA
0.05129977 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3

Distance to: Constance:MX288
0.02880168 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.02958360 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.02991684 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.03160777 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03220701 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.03312345 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.03317076 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03427474 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.03446687 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.03464767 England_IA
0.03476842 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.03511117 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03684276 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.03685537 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.03687212 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian
0.03710195 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03773385 England_Roman
0.03792535 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.03860684 Scotland_MBA
0.03866332 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.04044924 England_Saxon
0.04111110 England_MBA
0.04191987 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.04199813 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.04209998 ITA_Rome_Renaissance

Distance to: Constance:MX286
0.02899260 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.03223634 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.03315930 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.03392536 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.03503416 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.03573751 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.03797461 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.03844324 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.03862158 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.04013954 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.04024328 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.04037878 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.04318997 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.04363703 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.04393319 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.04600622 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.04615748 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.04661711 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.04697973 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.04698020 Scythian_HUN
0.04815744 Iberia_Northeast_RomP
0.04820404 England_IA
0.04833146 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
0.04893509 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
0.04901189 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian

Distance to: Constance:MX283
0.03293278 Iberia_Northeast_RomP
0.03400509 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.03584375 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.03921559 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA
0.04025054 Iberia_East_IA
0.04159340 DEU_Roman
0.04313833 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.04321458 Iberia_North_IA
0.04382837 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04438431 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.04598191 Scythian_HUN
0.04629300 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
0.04657793 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.04660060 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.04705778 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
0.04707784 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.04748602 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
0.04841298 Iberia_Northeast_BA
0.04852268 Iberia_North_BA
0.04859269 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.04896763 DEU_Lech_MBA
0.04902221 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.04924452 Iberia_Menorca_LBA
0.05071721 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.05098784 Iberia_Formentera_MBA

Distance to: Constance:MX279
0.03060598 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.03172088 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.03202649 England_IA
0.03366105 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03401716 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.03530704 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.03632372 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03744404 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03758098 Scotland_MBA
0.03786429 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03955140 SVK_Poprad_MA
0.03970668 England_MBA
0.03983085 England_Saxon
0.04010494 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.04015744 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.04026584 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.04071318 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.04071575 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.04094838 England_Roman
0.04143395 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04188155 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian
0.04290407 Scythian_MDA_o
0.04313915 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.04334874 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.04335328 England_CA_EBA

Distance to: Constance:MX275
0.03255095 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.03346974 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.03563921 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.03611511 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.03765763 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.03770571 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.03777814 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.03971882 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.04273038 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04291577 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.04403833 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.04423544 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.04443532 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.04470616 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.04514966 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.04550861 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.04849383 England_IA
0.04851262 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.04896048 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.04908036 Scotland_LBA
0.04915283 England_Roman
0.04943718 Scotland_MBA
0.04988174 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.05045447 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.05066606 England_MBA

Distance to: Constance:MX265
0.03542273 Scythian_HUN
0.04869404 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.04885430 HUN_LBA
0.05079788 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.05094438 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.05113236 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.05127409 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.05158151 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.05361976 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
0.05428776 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.05592452 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.05654290 HUN_MA
0.05681799 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.05688985 DEU_Lech_MBA
0.05707164 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.05709882 DEU_MA_ACD
0.05856957 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.05965355 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.05977254 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.05995948 DEU_Roman
0.06035096 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.06166494 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.06247493 DEU_MA
0.06258861 Iberia_North_IA
0.06277054 CZE_Early_Slav

Distance to: Constance:MX257
0.03164986 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.03359787 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.03372523 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.03458048 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.03464499 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.03519844 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.03729042 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03772570 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.03780823 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.03844677 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.03894627 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.03897041 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.03898061 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.03953788 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.04005445 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04071752 England_Roman
0.04081941 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.04095804 England_IA
0.04206274 HUN_MA
0.04280818 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.04369934 Scotland_MBA
0.04455537 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.04531871 England_MBA
0.04582787 Scotland_LBA
0.04670322 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian

Distance to: Constance:MX254_2
0.02748222 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.03384143 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.03404461 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.03485524 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.03770529 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.03832019 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.03996790 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.04040788 Scythian_HUN
0.04169987 Iberia_Northeast_RomP
0.04171188 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.04216712 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.04296143 DEU_Roman
0.04311850 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.04327025 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.04405775 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.04406950 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.04476670 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
0.04506512 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.04661213 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.04667230 Iberia_North_IA
0.04732083 HUN_MA
0.04734342 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
0.04795398 DEU_Lech_MBA
0.04824264 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA
0.04842968 ITA_Collegno_MA

Distance to: Constance:MX252
0.02657625 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.02744859 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.02888263 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.02911688 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.02951410 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.03142429 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.03301108 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.03402757 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.03412701 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.03453312 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.03470573 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.03506770 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.03518710 England_Roman
0.03535818 England_IA
0.03703436 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.03774570 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.03789653 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03794584 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.03849152 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03878559 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03959615 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.03966396 England_MBA
0.04065901 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.04081834 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.04152064 Scotland_LBA

Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64
0.02818063 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.02820945 England_IA
0.02876678 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.02881185 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.02937394 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.02947692 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.02976406 England_CA_EBA
0.03014559 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.03026153 Scotland_MBA
0.03127756 DNK_MN_B
0.03137907 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.03154808 England_MBA
0.03227903 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.03371557 IRL_BA
0.03374856 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.03456345 England_LBA
0.03475651 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.03481135 NLD_BA
0.03501009 DNK_LN
0.03547121 England_Saxon
0.03583488 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03598153 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03673016 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03692365 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03724869 CZE_EBA

Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63
0.03469585 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.03730217 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.03735921 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.04027281 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.04212112 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.04348337 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.04364320 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.04392996 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04397713 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.04451788 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.04749289 England_IA
0.04788724 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.04894958 SVK_Poprad_MA
0.04928025 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.04944545 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.04970316 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.04975358 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.05071739 Scotland_MBA
0.05091948 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.05159235 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
0.05222343 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.05262258 Iberia_Northeast_RomP
0.05295771 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.05320187 ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian
0.05374278 DNK_LN

Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25
0.02319568 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.02494720 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
0.02595202 Corded_Ware_DEU
0.02623105 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.02855520 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.02893607 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.02982545 KAZ_Chanchar_LBA
0.03157967 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
0.03173934 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.03215099 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.03244667 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
0.03255886 BGR_MLBA
0.03325164 KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1
0.03449200 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
0.03467709 KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
0.03552451 RUS_Poltavka_o
0.03740282 KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1
0.03754598 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03784358 KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA
0.03874109 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
0.03913496 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
0.03959102 KAZ_Shoendykol_MLBA_Fedorovo
0.03970918 UZB_Kokcha_BA
0.04168389 KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA
0.04196389 KAZ_Georgievsky_LBA

Distance to: Alsace:SX32
0.03314044 Scythian_MDA_o
0.03396359 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03461773 DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03730521 NLD_BA
0.03744346 CZE_EBA
0.03851642 DNK_LN
0.03887085 England_CA_EBA
0.03897059 Scotland_MBA
0.03955396 Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03956758 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.03993640 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.04013824 DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.04026409 Bell_Beaker_England
0.04047459 SWE_LN
0.04135591 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.04350174 IRL_BA
0.04360472 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
0.04421115 SWE_Megalithic_Olljso
0.04421563 England_IA
0.04428159 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
0.04428208 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.04451972 England_MBA
0.04461023 DNK_MN_B
0.04483423 CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.04502461 CZE_Bilina_BA


Celts didn't materialise out of thin air, they would have almost certainly been mostly a continuation of the people from the same area/s in the Bronze Age, and Proto-Celtic existed in the LBA. Ancient samples so far suggest a French-like genetic profile had already developed in Bronze Age Central Western Europe. The samples in the OP would be a quite a departure from that, if they were indeed Iron Age.


Distance to: DEU_Lech_EBA
0.02264165 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02347948 Belgian
0.02403917 French_Nord
0.02580453 French_Brittany
0.02615344 French_Paris
0.02702302 French_Alsace
0.02707452 Swiss_German
0.02899132 German
0.02902555 Afrikaner
0.02989720 Welsh
0.03161234 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03228871 French_Occitanie
0.03274724 English
0.03295852 Austrian
0.03354243 English_Cornwall
0.03431761 Swiss_French
0.03449853 French_Auvergne
0.03459784 Dutch
0.03545138 Scottish
0.03587274 Orcadian
0.03708521 Irish
0.03999336 Danish
0.04076622 Shetlandic
0.04132257 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04150015 French_Provence



Distance to: CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.03516374 French_Nord
0.03563729 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03706400 French_Occitanie
0.03712202 German
0.03717849 French_Alsace
0.03789837 French_Paris
0.03797138 Belgian
0.03847557 French_Brittany
0.03975828 Swiss_German
0.03995990 Austrian
0.04053974 French_Auvergne
0.04088379 English_Cornwall
0.04119886 Welsh
0.04175909 English
0.04182437 Afrikaner
0.04341866 Orcadian
0.04425152 German_East
0.04447228 Dutch
0.04452922 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04483823 Scottish
0.04641699 Danish
0.04750609 French_South
0.04761147 Hungarian
0.04839793 Slovenian
0.04850793 Spanish_Barcelones




Distance to: Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.02573222 French_Auvergne
0.02667249 French_Occitanie
0.02810113 Swiss_German
0.02844153 Swiss_French
0.02886573 Spanish_Penedes
0.02891363 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03102337 French_Nord
0.03244797 French_Alsace
0.03259581 French_Provence
0.03276224 Spanish_Girona
0.03315350 Spanish_Lleida
0.03376662 French_Paris
0.03384515 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03401968 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03447173 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03465609 Belgian
0.03508929 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03526661 Spanish_Cataluna
0.03539327 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03588166 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03618790 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03695781 French_South
0.03696393 Spanish_Valencia
0.03727343 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03741468 Spanish_Castello

[Voskos]

How likely is it that North Europeans migrated out of modern Central Europe to populate scandinavia?I think it's a possible scenario.

[SharpFork]

The one from St. Gallen (Eastern Switzerland Germanic Canton) caught my attention as it is quite close to a modern Basque\Iberian.


Target: St_Gallen:SX20
Distance: 2.4222% / 0.02422226
76.0 Basque
12.2 Balto_Slavic_North
8.4 Greek_Albanian
3.4 Northwest_European




Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20
0.03170147 Basque
0.03749692 Belgian_French
0.04818528 Iberian
0.06029530 Northwest_European
0.06161228 North_Sea_Germanic
0.06551486 Balkan
0.06631236 Central_European
0.07260614 Scando_Germanic
0.07360623 Greek_Albanian
0.08978597 Polish_Ukrainian
0.10511355 Sicilian_Maltese
0.11101468 Balto_Slavic_South
0.11142811 Balto_Slavic_North
0.13360026 Finnic
0.13925607 European_Jewish
0.15240539 West_Turkish
0.16469766 Circassian
0.17427253 Levant
0.17453272 Azeri
0.17547694 Armenian_Assyrian
0.18694591 Abkhasian_Georgian
0.19241452 Iranian
0.19742813 Tajik
0.21328751 Udmurt
0.21576389 Northeast_African
Can we stop talking about this Basque stuff without a reason? It looks like a North-East Spaniard or a South-West French and it's an outlier compared to the average, plus among the historical samples from Spain it's close to only 2 of them, for both of which we have good reason to believe they have Celtic admixture themselves.

[SharpFork]

anyway, you, as everyone here make the mistake to see Celts as a racial group instead of linguo-cultural which they really were, and as a linguocultural group they were originated from the same subclade with Italics, just like Germanics came from the same subclade with Balto-slavs
Most historical "linguo-cultural" groups correlated with genetic similarities to some extent, so expecting genetic similarities or expecting genetic shifts towards the origin population when the socio-linguistic situation changes isn't unwarranted.

[SharpFork]

How likely is it that North Europeans migrated out of modern Central Europe to populate scandinavia?I think it's a possible scenario.

I mean isn't that already confirmed considering the origins of Battle-Axe culture?

[SharpFork]

i mean, the ones you cited and the ones posted by brás garcias de mascarenhas are bronze age samples. there were no celts during the bronze age. clearly these iron age samples aren't descended from these basque-like bronze age people.
Again, how can't they be "basque"-like when the average Steppe admixture is 45%? Only 2 samples are under 35% and approach the kind of admixture Basques have.

[J. Ketch]

Bronze Age British/Irish averages, modern Insular Celtic averages, and potential Celts / Proto-Celts / Proto-Italo-Celts from Central Europe.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2RMKsTV/Opera-Snapshot-2020-04-18-213149-vahaduo-github-io.png

[Raizen]

Bronze Age British/Irish averages, modern Insular Celtic averages, and potential Celts / Proto-Celts / Proto-Italo-Celts from Central Europe.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2RMKsTV/Opera-Snapshot-2020-04-18-213149-vahaduo-github-io.png

again, these samples are not potential proto-celts, they still spoke some form of PIE. proto-celts are the ones posted by op

[J. Ketch]

again, these samples are not potential proto-celts, they still spoke some form of PIE. proto-celts are the ones posted by op
No they did not speak PIE in Bronze Age Western Europe. They'd have spoken some form of Proto-Italo-Celtic at least, if they spoke an IE language. The ones Token posted are supposed to be Iron Age, so not really Proto-Celts but actual Celts.

Here are the Aargau samples from the OP on the right, by comparison.
https://i.postimg.cc/rwPx1HBp/Opera-Snapshot-2020-04-18-231939-vahaduo-github-io.png

[Raizen]

No they did not speak PIE in Bronze Age Western Europe. They'd have spoken some form of Proto-Italo-Celtic at least, if they spoke an IE language. The ones Token posted are supposed to be Iron Age, so not really Proto-Celts but actual Celts.

Here are the Aargau samples from the OP on the right, by comparison.
https://i.postimg.cc/rwPx1HBp/Opera-Snapshot-2020-04-18-231939-vahaduo-github-io.png
i doubt they even spoke IE. i bet they spoke something related to Rhaetian. most of western europe didn't spoke ie at this time (prob. even britain, with pictish). if they are early Iron Age they could very well be hallstatt culture and thus proto-celtic. i believe proto-italo-celtic can be explained by a later wave of steppe ancestry coming from corded ware proto-unetice (unetice is predecessor of urnfield, which is predecessor of hallstatt). there is a unetice sample in G25, take a look at it

[Raizen]

i was expecting some roman admixture in britain and collateral roman admixture into ireland, culture doesn't change out of nowhere. that would explain this southern shift.

[firemonkey]

Target: MX195_scaled
Distance: 4.1907% / 0.04190749 | ADC: 2x
100.0 Norwegian

Target: MX192_scaled
Distance: 4.0441% / 0.04044076 | ADC: 2x
100.0 Norwegian

Target: MX190_scaled
Distance: 4.2110% / 0.04211028 | ADC: 2x
65.8 Icelandic
34.2 Swedish

Target: MX188_scaled
Distance: 4.2699% / 0.04269943 | ADC: 2x
80.8 Norwegian
19.2 Afrikaner

[Peterski]

Davidski said that today should be official publication of Furtwängler et al. 2020 study!

[SharpFork]

Place your bets, I think it's safe to say Celts should be somewhere between 35% and 45% Steppe and between 15% and 20% WHG, I'd be surprised it it was different.

[Albannach]

The paper has been released.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-15560-x

[SharpFork]

Meh only 5 samples younger than 2000 BCE and only 1 is from the iron age I believe, all 5 samples are between 34-47% Steppe and the iron age one is kinda East-European in G25(10% Eastern HG) and has R1a.

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-15560-x/MediaObjects/41467_2020_15560_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Edit:Actually there is another iron age sample from 200-0 BCE. It's SX18. It's about 30% Steppe and 15% WHG.

[SharpFork]

Who thought we needed more bronze age samples from central Europe, get working on the iron age people lol

[Raizen]

Who thought we needed more bronze age samples from central Europe, get working on the iron age people lol

so what was the carbon dating of the samples in the op?

[Vid Flumina]

so what was the carbon dating of the samples in the op?

MX188 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2495-2399BC M423 I2a1a2
MX190 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2860-2460BC M423 I2a1a2
MX192 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2571-2513BC M423 I2a1a2
MX195 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2470-2050BC M423 I2a1a2

[Raizen]

We compared present-day Swiss people to regional Final Neolithic populations (Spreitenbach, Bad Zurzach, Wartau) to test whether there are additional ancestry components in present-day Swiss people. For that analysis, we made use of information available in the present-day dataset (POPRES) about the self-reported language group and split the individuals into three linguistic regions, as they were shown to be distinguishable genetically in previous studies27: German-speaking, French-speaking, and Italian-speaking Switzerland. To test for continuity between the ancient and present-day population we used the method qpWave from the ADMIXTOOLS package19 and found that a simple continuity can be rejected (p = 0.0003) for all three linguistic regions separately and the entire present-day Swiss population combined, consistent also with the PCA (Fig. 1c).

To assess whether ancient Swiss individuals from the Final Neolithic are symmetrically related to different linguistic present-day groups, or share an excess of alleles with any of them, we calculated D-statistics of the form D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–French, Swiss–Italian), D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–German, Swiss–Italian), and D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–French, Swiss–German) where “Test” are the different Neolithic groups. The first two D-statistics were, with few exceptions, all negative with a |Z| ≥ 1.099 (maximum values to be found in D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–French, Swiss–Italian) for Singen with −3.431 and Bad Zurzach −3.068) indicating the least genetic affinity of the Final Neolithic and Early Bronze Age individuals of this study to the Italian-speaking group in our present-day Swiss dataset. For D(Mbuti, Test, Swiss–French, Swiss–German) some variation between the sites can be found (Fig. 5) with the older sites sharing more alleles with the French-speaking group, and the younger sites being more similar with the German-speaking group.

swiss-italians are the least native swiss people as expected.

[Raizen]

MX188 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2495-2399BC M423 I2a1a2
MX190 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2860-2460BC M423 I2a1a2
MX192 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2571-2513BC M423 I2a1a2
MX195 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2470-2050BC M423 I2a1a2
ok, makes more sense. i think it is now safe to assume central european celts were quite southern european then.

[XenophobicPrussian]

MX188 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2495-2399BC M423 I2a1a2
MX190 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2860-2460BC M423 I2a1a2
MX192 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2571-2513BC M423 I2a1a2
MX195 Spreitenbach CWC (CH) 2470-2050BC M423 I2a1a2
Yep, not surprising. Can't blame Token of course, Davidski or whoever uploaded the samples rushed to judgement.

I believe these guys are older than any other samples with a Bell Beaker genetic profile(whilist the typical CWC profile is already found in Ukraine before 4000 BC), and of course they're archaeologically CWC, which does confirm BBs were just another group of CWC like Davidski has been theorizing, not a different southern movement through Hungary from contemporary with CWC Yamnaya. Aesch25 from 2864-2501 is also the oldest R1b-L51, unsure of his autosomal profile. Unsurprisingly the neolithic farmers all G2a/I2, not a J/E to be found in sight.

[Peterski]

I warned you on the 1st page of this thread that they are probably not Iron Age.


Aesch25 from 2864-2501 is also the oldest R1b-L51, unsure of his autosomal profile.

Autosomally Corded Ware:


Aesch25_scaled,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0 .00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239

Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118, 0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002

Some other samples:

Distance to: Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63
0.04214376 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04385189 French_Paris
0.04495073 Belgian

Distance to: St_Gallen:SX20
0.02962418 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03088535 French_Occitanie
0.03111555 French_Auvergne

Distance to: Constance:MX288
0.02803595 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03083126 French_Brittany
0.03226829 Welsh

Distance to: Constance:MX286
0.03509933 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03631098 French_Occitanie
0.03674378 French_Paris

Distance to: Constance:MX283
0.03230589 Spanish_Soria
0.03981424 French_Auvergne
0.03988847 French_Occitanie

Distance to: Constance:MX279
0.03559744 French_Brittany
0.03697281 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03817387 Welsh

Distance to: Constance:MX275
0.04154491 French_Occitanie
0.04172188 French_Paris
0.04186804 Belgian

Distance to: Constance:MX257
0.03452833 French_Nord
0.03485311 Afrikaner
0.03489344 Belgian

Distance to: Constance:MX254_2
0.03464891 French_Occitanie
0.03505670 French_Auvergne
0.03540269 Spanish_Soria

Distance to: Constance:MX252
0.02867450 French_Brittany
0.02899975 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02930563 French_Nord

Scaled:


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Alsace:SX32,0.135449,0.122879,0.053174,0.0646,0.02 4312,0.025937,0.00799,0.010615,-0.005931,-0.006743,-0.004872,-0.002248,-0.007284,-0.018029,0.020494,0.023468,0.019297,-0.009248,0.003394,0.016508,0.006489,0.002102,-0.005053,-0.004458,0.00467
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585, 0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.121791,0.126941,0.04676 3,0.032623,0.05201,0.009761,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.013294,0.016766,0.005196,0.007793,-0.018731,-0.022432,0.018322,0.028109,0.008605,-0.002407,-0.004148,0.002876,-0.003868,0.005317,-0.005176,-0.003374,-0.001916
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.121791,0.122879,0.05317 4,0.050388,0.031083,0.018686,-0.000235,0.003,0.002863,-0.001093,-0.00341,0.004796,-0.008325,-0.021744,0.020901,0.019888,0.008345,-0.004434,0.00176,0.012756,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.012448,0.006386,-0.002155
Constance:MX252,0.124067,0.137096,0.05242,0.039729 ,0.03693,0.009203,-0.00893,0.000692,0.016157,0.013485,0.001299,0.0019 48,-0.010406,-0.013487,0.017236,0.011005,-0.007302,0.003801,0.004399,0.003752,0.010482,-0.003215,-0.011955,0.001084,-0.005269
Constance:MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.055437,0.024 871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.017794,0.02 4784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Constance:MX257,0.120652,0.129988,0.046009,0.04134 4,0.040623,0.003068,-0.00329,0.001615,0.010022,0.014397,-0.006658,0.001499,-0.007582,-0.018304,0.020494,-0.001724,-0.000522,-0.001774,0.015964,-0.002501,-0.001747,-0.001237,-0.00037,-0.007591,0.000359
Constance:MX265,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163, 0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012 017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023
Constance:MX275,0.126344,0.128972,0.045632,0.04005 2,0.03139,0.005578,-0.00047,0.002308,0.018407,0.021504,-0.003573,0.007943,-0.026313,-0.014726,0.021444,0.008618,-0.000261,0.006841,0.006411,-0.003627,0.001123,0.012984,0.001356,-0.015183,0.002754
Constance:MX279,0.135449,0.138112,0.053928,0.05264 9,0.039392,0.013945,-0.002115,-0.004846,0.005931,0.015308,-0.010555,0.008243,-0.006541,-0.014175,0.013165,0.015778,0.011995,0.002154,-0.003017,-0.001,0.002246,0.003462,-0.012571,0.006145,-0.0097
Constance:MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322,0.02357 9,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Constance:MX286,0.12862,0.13405,0.049026,0.030685, 0.041854,0.005857,-0.00235,0.001846,0.012885,0.020046,-0.005684,0.004046,-0.017839,-0.015551,0.012351,0.01432,0.011083,0.005574,-0.00352,0.001376,0.007362,0.018053,0.007641,-0.011809,-0.000239
Constance:MX288,0.132035,0.132019,0.061094,0.04069 8,0.048932,0.006972,0.008695,0.00923,0.010635,0.01 5672,-0.006333,0.003897,-0.013082,-0.007844,0.017508,0.01127,0.005737,-0.0019,0.000503,0.006003,0.015597,0.005193,-0.00037,-0.003856,0.000838
St_Gallen:SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0.012274 ,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.013908,0.02 77,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479

Unscaled:


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Alsace:SX32,0.0119,0.0121,0.0141,0.02,0.0079,0.009 3,0.0034,0.0046,-0.0029,-0.0037,-0.003,-0.0015,-0.0049,-0.0131,0.0151,0.0177,0.0148,-0.0073,0.0027,0.0132,0.0052,0.0017,-0.0041,-0.0037,0.0039
Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.02 85,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63,0.0107,0.0125,0.0124,0.01 01,0.0169,0.0035,-0.0023,-0.001,0.0065,0.0092,0.0032,0.0052,-0.0126,-0.0163,0.0135,0.0212,0.0066,-0.0019,-0.0033,0.0023,-0.0031,0.0043,-0.0042,-0.0028,-0.0016
Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64,0.0107,0.0121,0.0141,0.01 56,0.0101,0.0067,-0.0001,0.0013,0.0014,-0.0006,-0.0021,0.0032,-0.0056,-0.0158,0.0154,0.015,0.0064,-0.0035,0.0014,0.0102,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0101,0.0053,-0.0018
Constance:MX252,0.0109,0.0135,0.0139,0.0123,0.012, 0.0033,-0.0038,0.0003,0.0079,0.0074,0.0008,0.0013,-0.007,-0.0098,0.0127,0.0083,-0.0056,0.003,0.0035,0.003,0.0084,-0.0026,-0.0097,0.0009,-0.0044
Constance:MX254_2,0.0115,0.0134,0.0147,0.0077,0.01 36,0.0009,0.002,0.0027,0.0087,0.0136,-0.0027,0.005,-0.0111,-0.0104,0.0023,0.0137,0.0111,0.0028,-0.0019,0.0004,-0.0034,0.009,0.0012,-0.0087,0.0011
Constance:MX257,0.0106,0.0128,0.0122,0.0128,0.0132 ,0.0011,-0.0014,0.0007,0.0049,0.0079,-0.0041,0.001,-0.0051,-0.0133,0.0151,-0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0014,0.0127,-0.002,-0.0014,-0.001,-0.0003,-0.0063,0.0003
Constance:MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152 ,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067
Constance:MX275,0.0111,0.0127,0.0121,0.0124,0.0102 ,0.002,-0.0002,0.001,0.009,0.0118,-0.0022,0.0053,-0.0177,-0.0107,0.0158,0.0065,-0.0002,0.0054,0.0051,-0.0029,0.0009,0.0105,0.0011,-0.0126,0.0023
Constance:MX279,0.0119,0.0136,0.0143,0.0163,0.0128 ,0.005,-0.0009,-0.0021,0.0029,0.0084,-0.0065,0.0055,-0.0044,-0.0103,0.0097,0.0119,0.0092,0.0017,-0.0024,-0.0008,0.0018,0.0028,-0.0102,0.0051,-0.0081
Constance:MX283,0.0111,0.0135,0.0152,0.0073,0.0165 ,-0.0011,0.0005,0.0013,0.0098,0.0193,-0.0034,0.0064,-0.01,-0.0066,-0.0006,0.0169,0.0128,0.0001,0.0032,-0.0019,-0.0012,0.0052,-0.0037,-0.0085,0.0012
Constance:MX286,0.0113,0.0132,0.013,0.0095,0.0136, 0.0021,-0.001,0.0008,0.0063,0.011,-0.0035,0.0027,-0.012,-0.0113,0.0091,0.0108,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0028,0.0011,0.0059,0.0146,0.0062,-0.0098,-0.0002
Constance:MX288,0.0116,0.013,0.0162,0.0126,0.0159, 0.0025,0.0037,0.004,0.0052,0.0086,-0.0039,0.0026,-0.0088,-0.0057,0.0129,0.0085,0.0044,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0048,0.0125,0.0042,-0.0003,-0.0032,0.0007
St_Gallen:SX20,0.0114,0.0145,0.0148,0.0038,0.0179, 0.0033,0.0005,0.0008,0.0068,0.0152,-0.0024,0.0084,-0.0132,-0.0056,0.0039,-0.0067,-0.0133,-0.003,0.0008,-0.0068,-0.0028,0.0038,-0.0022,-0.0052,-0.004

Some more (scaled & unscaled):


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Aesch23,0.0108,0.0178,0.0126,-0.012,0.0255,-0.0095,-0.0021,-0.0005,0.0306,0.0502,0.0002,0.0107,-0.022,-0.0096,-0.0096,-0.0049,-0.0018,0.0019,-0.0035,-0.0029,0.0064,0.0031,-0.0093,-0.0301,-0.0023
MX212,0.0111,0.0167,0.0157,-0.0093,0.0302,-0.0097,-0.0007,0.0001,0.0361,0.0426,-0.0012,0.0074,-0.0196,-0.014,-0.0113,0.0131,0.0186,0.0033,0.0008,-0.007,0.013,0.0034,-0.0099,-0.0319,-0.0045
MX188,0.0103,0.0128,0.0159,0.0178,0.0069,0.0071,-0.0007,0,-0.0032,-0.0046,0.0003,0.0005,-0.0014,-0.0154,0.0097,0.0167,0.0038,0.002,-0.0019,0.0084,0.0059,0.0029,-0.0027,0.001,-0.0063
MX190,0.0111,0.0133,0.0158,0.0192,0.0082,0.0109,0. 0031,0.0038,-0.0043,-0.0015,-0.0058,0,-0.0096,-0.0111,0.0102,0.0061,0.0027,-0.0029,-0.0016,0.0061,0.0031,0.008,0.0073,-0.0081,-0.0017
MX192,0.0109,0.0119,0.0176,0.0193,0.0082,0.0083,-0.0037,0.0019,-0.0034,-0.0007,0.0016,-0.0024,-0.0053,-0.0059,0.0145,0.0159,0.0092,0.0025,0,0.0019,0.0067 ,0.0013,-0.0032,0.0017,0.0022
MX195,0.0108,0.0119,0.0172,0.0204,0.0071,0.0094,-0.0004,0.0011,-0.0015,-0.0045,0,0.0015,-0.0071,-0.0065,0.0152,0.0183,0.0069,-0.0041,-0.0046,0.0067,-0.0021,0.003,0.0008,0.0025,0.0011
Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118, 0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002
MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067
Aesch23_scaled,0.122929,0.180764,0.047517,-0.03876,0.078476,-0.026495,-0.004935,-0.001154,0.062584,0.091483,0.000325,0.016036,-0.032705,-0.013212,-0.013029,-0.006497,-0.002347,0.002407,-0.004399,-0.003627,0.007986,0.003833,-0.011462,-0.03627,-0.002754
MX212_scaled,0.126344,0.169593,0.059208,-0.030039,0.09294,-0.027052,-0.001645,0.000231,0.073833,0.077633,-0.001949,0.01109,-0.029137,-0.019267,-0.015336,0.017369,0.024251,0.004181,0.001006,-0.008754,0.016221,0.004204,-0.012202,-0.038439,-0.005389
MX188_scaled,0.117238,0.129988,0.059962,0.057494,0 .021235,0.019801,-0.001645,0,-0.006545,-0.008383,0.000487,0.000749,-0.002081,-0.021194,0.013165,0.022142,0.004955,0.002534,-0.002388,0.010505,0.007362,0.003586,-0.003328,0.001205,-0.007544
MX190_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.059585,0.062016,0 .025235,0.030399,0.007285,0.008769,-0.008795,-0.002734,-0.009419,0,-0.014271,-0.015276,0.013843,0.008088,0.00352,-0.003674,-0.002011,0.007629,0.003868,0.009892,0.008997,-0.00976,-0.002036
MX192_scaled,0.124067,0.120848,0.066373,0.062339,0 .025235,0.023148,-0.008695,0.004384,-0.006954,-0.001276,0.002598,-0.003597,-0.007879,-0.00812,0.019679,0.021082,0.011995,0.003167,0,0.00 2376,0.00836,0.001607,-0.003944,0.002048,0.002634
MX195_scaled,0.122929,0.120848,0.064865,0.065892,0 .02185,0.026216,-0.00094,0.002538,-0.003068,-0.008201,0,0.002248,-0.010555,-0.008945,0.020629,0.024264,0.008996,-0.005194,-0.005782,0.008379,-0.00262,0.00371,0.000986,0.003012,0.001317
Aesch25_scaled,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0 .00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239
MX265_scaled,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.0 46778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012 017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023

[Peterski]

^^^

https://media.makeameme.org/created/french-people-french-eagrfx.jpg

[XenophobicPrussian]

I warned you on the 1st page of this thread that they are probably not Iron Age.

Do you have SX18?

[XenophobicPrussian]

^^^

https://media.makeameme.org/created/french-people-french-eagrfx.jpg
See, thing is, Celts aren't going to be like those northern French ones either. They're too northern, would still need way too much Roman to get modern Swiss from N. French+Scandinavian+Roman. Even if we say La Tene/Hallstatt period Celts still formed a cline from N. Iberians to N. French by 500 BC+, that still means the average is around SW/South/Central French, which is what I've been saying after I made that thread about the Lech samples(originally was saying Basque-like of course, which is still close enough regardless).

The dates say it all, SX20(closest to Spanish_Barcelona): 1693-1609 BC is the youngest sample on there(excluding MX265, the eastern one), most the closest to Calais_French ones are older than 2000 BC(not that they didn't exist later, 1 out of 6 middle 1000s BC Lech_MBA clustered around N. French/Belgium rather than Iberians/SW French like the rest and one 1800 BC one from this paper is Britanny like). If we take SharpFork's word for it on SX18, the only other Iron Age sample in this paper(200 BC+) and go by the steppe/farmer/WHG ratio it has, fits right with what northern Iberians have, around 30% steppe, 15% WHG(although I haven't been able to find anything about this sample in supp data), and the other one closest to Croats.

I was right all along. :)

[Peterski]

R1a sample:

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-15560-x/MediaObjects/41467_2020_15560_MOESM1_ESM.pdf - Supplementary Table 3

maxageBP minageBP ageBP
763 431 597

This age is in BP (before present) or in BC ???

[Vid Flumina]

Edit:Actually there is another iron age sample from 200-0 BCE. It's SX18. It's about 30% Steppe and 15% WHG.

Rhaetian? It is dated 178BC-2AD from Wartau, on the border with Liechtenstein.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Historische_Karte_CH_Helvet.png

Admixture proportions seem identical to Late Iron Age Prenestini sample R435

[Peterski]

It seems most dates are in BP (before present), not in BC. See Supplementary Table 3.

=========

Wait for SX18.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Rhaetian? It is dated 178BC-2AD from Wartau, on the border with Liechtenstein.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Historische_Karte_CH_Helvet.png

Admixture proportions seem identical to Late Iron Age Prenestini sample R435
There's already samples with identical autosomal to those profiles 2000 BC+, Rhaetians only entered Switzerland 500 BC supposedly. It could be a Rhaetian, but Celts/Rhaetians and other Italic tribes likely would've been the exact same people autosomally, by the time of the Hallstatt/La Tene anyway, while proto-Celt/Urnfield were likely more northern.

[Peterski]

I don't get it, one table has dates in BP and another one in BC. Is MX265 (R1a sample) Iron Age or Medieval?

[XenophobicPrussian]

dp

[XenophobicPrussian]

It seems most dates are in BP (before present), not in BC. See Supplementary Table 3.

=========

Wait for SX18.
Main supp data page 7 says BC(I also see where it says BP later):

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-15560-x/MediaObjects/41467_2020_15560_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Looks like they made a mistake, I'm willing to guess BC is the accurate one, it has to be otherwise pure neolithic farmers survived up to 1500 BC in Switzerland, lol.

[Peterski]

the iron age one is kinda East-European in G25(10% Eastern HG) and has R1a.

Could be a merchant who came from Biskupin. Or maybe from somewhere around Hungary.

[SharpFork]

It seems most dates are in BP (before present), not in BC. See Supplementary Table 3.

=========

Wait for SX18.

No it's always BC, otherwise it doesn't make sense, they explitclty mention they have 1 early Iron Age sample and 1 Late iron age and Roman one.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Target: Viriato_scaled
Distance: 3.0897% / 0.03089746
29.0 St_Gallen
28.0 Aesch23_scaled
20.6 Constance
15.2 Aesch25
7.2 MX265_scaled


Distance to: Viriato_scaled
0.04799128 St_Gallen:SX20
0.06301488 Constance:MX257
0.06347499 Constance:MX265
0.06347499 MX265_scaled
0.06634102 Constance:MX254_2
0.06669808 Constance:MX283
0.06784758 Constance:MX252
0.06835502 Constance:MX275
0.06875447 Constance:MX286
0.07497707 Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA63
0.07683257 Constance:MX288
0.08808025 Constance:MX279
0.09392052 Basel_Landschaft:SNPRA64
0.10264727 MX190_scaled
0.10312953 MX188_scaled
0.10791903 MX192_scaled
0.11179348 MX195_scaled
0.11460139 Aesch23_scaled
0.11539719 Alsace:SX32
0.12524452 MX212_scaled
0.14577873 Basel_Landschaft:Aesch25
0.14577873 Aesch25_scaled
0.16742646 Aesch23
0.17179223 MX212
0.17196938 MX265

Actually not a bad fit considering how old these are.

[coolfrenchguy]

Rhaetian? It is dated 178BC-2AD from Wartau, on the border with Liechtenstein.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Historische_Karte_CH_Helvet.png

Admixture proportions seem identical to Late Iron Age Prenestini sample R435

you see annency(annecy) in france and the "allobroger",the allobroges indeed is a gaulish tribe at the IV century BC

i'am from a bit up north(west from the lake) in burgandy,some major tribes like the burgonds or the vandals came from northen and goes southern by this side,indeed i advance a theory than the proto-germanic tribes from denmark goes southern east by this way until northern italian tyrol ,given later the proto-celtic tribes between -1500 to -400 BC and way before the roman empire
i had post something related about a crazy bitch afro-portuguese leftie harpie claiming than europe is not white ,forget the crazy bitch but i had demonstrated by A+B the presence of the "modern white man" since a while in this area

Ötzi 3350-3100 B.C. 2020+3350= -5370 BC(4 546 ± 15 years BP),found near the austrian border (92 m.) in northern italy ,in bolzano

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Clothes_of_%C3%96tzi%2C_Naturhistorisches_Museum_W ien.jpg/438px-Clothes_of_%C3%96tzi%2C_Naturhistorisches_Museum_W ien.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Oetzi_the_Iceman_Rekonstruktion_1.jpg/220px-Oetzi_the_Iceman_Rekonstruktion_1.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi but you couldn't considered Ötzi connected to the proto germanics/celts it's way to much previous and too far

i resume my "theory":
-the proto-germanic tribes core from denmark goes and gave the proto-celtic tribes later on an north east to south west axis from denmark to tyrol area
and followed way later by the Hallstatt/La Tene iron age (-1200/-400 approx.)
sorry if i take some liberties and some shortcuts but it's more a way of logic
the proto-germanic culture and tribes gave the proto-celtic culture and tribes ,who themsleves became the more or less united "modern" post-proto germano-celts tribes , gaving the embryos of the first forms of organized societies and states, whom,later, directly strongly influenced the proto-viking tribes,like this the loop is looped
to my eyes but i can be wrong you can't splitted the proto-germanic tribes of the proto-celtic tribes,I like to speak of the proto and of the germano-celts

look where is located the proto-germanic core map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png/300px-Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png

the danish bronze age (-1800/-500 BC) core map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Nordic_Bronze_Age.png/577px-Nordic_Bronze_Age.png
burgonds,lombards,goths and the herulis are from scandinavia called scandza the matrix of the people at this era
(L'influence scandinave en Poméranie (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pom%C3%A9ranie) et dans le nord de la Pologne à partir de -1300 (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/-1300) paraît même avoir été si forte que ces deux régions sont incluses dans la culture de l'âge du bronze danois )
the scandinavian influence in Pomerania in the northen Poland seems to be so strong starting by -1300 than these two areas are included in the danish bronze age culture
and by the same way it came to confirm what i was thinking than northern poland and germany is like the baltic states genetically influenced by the scandinavians,if you are pomeranians tell me if i'am wrong?

seen from our recent modern era with the actual germany and poland states
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Administrative_division_of_pomerania.png/280px-Administrative_division_of_pomerania.png



end of the danish bronze age -750 BC
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germanic_tribes_%28750BC-1AD%29.png

and the halstatt/la téne core map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png

[Not a Cop]

Main supp data page 7 says BC(I also see where it says BP later):

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-15560-x/MediaObjects/41467_2020_15560_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Looks like they made a mistake, I'm willing to guess BC is the accurate one, it has to be otherwise pure neolithic farmers survived up to 1500 BC in Switzerland, lol.

Remarkably, we identified several female individuals without any detectable steppe-related ancestry up to 1000 years after this ancestry arrives in the region, with the most recent woman without such ancestry dating to 2213–2031 calBCE. This suggests a high level of genetic structure in this region at the beginning of the Bronze Age with potential parallel societies living in close proximity to each other.

[Lucas]

Of course BP is the mistake and should be BC. Otherwise oldest samples would be much younger than Middle Neolithic, which is age of oldest samples in suplemental.

Look at first pages of it. I compared it with first table. https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-15560-x/MediaObjects/41467_2020_15560_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/ckdrIcI.png


https://i.imgur.com/fhITRjL.png

[Peterski]

Do you have SX18?

Possible Rhaetian SX18:


SX18_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.048271,-0.00646,0.051394,-0.007251,0.0047,-0.000692,0.016362,0.035354,0.002598,0.016485,-0.016055,-0.006055,0.001629,0.000663,0.006128,0.00266,0.0038 97,-0.006628,0.006364,0.006183,-0.011709,-0.006145,0.000958

SX18,0.0111,0.015,0.0128,-0.002,0.0167,-0.0026,0.002,-0.0003,0.008,0.0194,0.0016,0.011,-0.0108,-0.0044,0.0012,0.0005,0.0047,0.0021,0.0031,-0.0053,0.0051,0.005,-0.0095,-0.0051,0.0008

One more sample MX191:


MX191_scaled,0.121791,0.116786,0.058831,0.072352,0 .02462,0.029284,0.00282,0.003923,0.001636,-0.01877,-0.005846,-0.001499,-0.006244,-0.019405,0.019951,0.015646,-0.001695,0.007348,0.001508,0.005378,0.001622,0.009 027,0.001849,0.009158,-0.007185

MX191,0.0107,0.0115,0.0156,0.0224,0.008,0.0105,0.0 012,0.0017,0.0008,-0.0103,-0.0036,-0.001,-0.0042,-0.0141,0.0147,0.0118,-0.0013,0.0058,0.0012,0.0043,0.0013,0.0073,0.0015,0 .0076,-0.006

[SharpFork]

See, thing is, Celts aren't going to be like those northern French ones either. They're too northern, would still need way too much Roman to get modern Swiss from N. French+Scandinavian+Roman. Even if we say La Tene/Hallstatt period Celts still formed a cline from N. Iberians to N. French by 500 BC+, that still means the average is around SW/South/Central French, which is what I've been saying after I made that thread about the Lech samples(originally was saying Basque-like of course, which is still close enough regardless).

The dates say it all, SX20(closest to Spanish_Barcelona): 1693-1609 BC is the youngest sample on there(excluding MX265, the eastern one), most the closest to Calais_French ones are older than 2000 BC(not that they didn't exist later, 1 out of 6 middle 1000s BC Lech_MBA clustered around N. French/Belgium rather than Iberians/SW French like the rest and one 1800 BC one from this paper is Britanny like). If we take SharpFork's word for it on SX18, the only other Iron Age sample in this paper(200 BC+) and go by the steppe/farmer/WHG ratio it has, fits right with what northern Iberians have, around 30% steppe, 15% WHG(although I haven't been able to find anything about this sample in supp data), and the other one closest to Croats.

I was right all along. :)
Is this that unlikely?

https://i.imgur.com/SdRmuq4.png

Even if you the historical samples with lower steppe there is a strong preference for Italic. You can test that yourself.

[Peterski]

https://i.imgur.com/SdRmuq4.png

For Swiss Italians you got a rather bad fit though.

BTW, Swiss Romansh is what I would like to see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_of_Grisons#Languages

[SharpFork]

For Swiss Italians you got a rather bad fit though.

BTW, Swiss Romansh is what I would like to see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_of_Grisons#Languages

The Swiss Italian sample is weird in of itself, very southern, more than some other Northern Italian ones. Regardless even using all Celtic samples from the Iron age, we get low Celtic values overall, in this one I excluded the woman from the late iron age but little changes:

https://i.imgur.com/NFeWj4g.png



Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8203,0.126344,0 .14319,0.051288,0.021641,0.037238,-0.005299,0.00094,0.004846,0.024747,0.026971,-0.003897,0.008992,-0.025272,-0.026011,0.008822,0.004906,0.012126,-0.003547,0.003268,0.003627,0.007487,0.000618,-0.001972,0.004458,-0.00467
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8209,0.12862,0. 145221,0.054682,0.013243,0.043393,0.009761,-0.001175,0.006,0.026384,0.033167,-0.006658,0.018434,-0.016501,-0.023121,0.011401,0.004508,0.005085,0.000127,0.003 897,-0.009254,0.001123,0.00507,0.002218,-0.009881,0.008263
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206,0.125205,0 .127957,0.053928,0.048773,0.040931,0.013387,0.0068 15,0.006231,0.012067,0.014214,-0.001786,-0.005245,-0.015163,-0.018029,0.021444,0.011403,0.011735,0.010262,0.003 897,0.009129,0.009733,-0.000989,-0.004807,0.016629,0.006227
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8214,0.130897,0 .138112,0.058454,0.026809,0.046162,0.008367,-0.001175,-0.004154,0.016771,0.030069,-0.001624,0.009741,-0.022299,-0.014588,0.010586,0.00769,0.002868,0.002787,0.0036 45,0.001376,0.011105,0.006801,-0.00986,-0.012893,0.005628
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111,0.124067,0.15131 4,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002 308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269

Italic:ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.0331 87,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italic:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0 34318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981

Germanic:SWE_IA:RISE174,0.122929,0.123895,0.067127 ,0.058463,0.041238,0.02008,0.005875,0.007615,0.002 863,-0.009659,0.003735,0.001948,-0.006987,0.003853,0.020358,-0.006762,-0.015385,0.006461,0.009427,0.00025,0.00025,0.00284 4,0.002465,0.011447,0.000359
Germanic:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048 773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.001329 5,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429

[Vid Flumina]

Possible Rhaetian SX18:


SX18_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.048271,-0.00646,0.051394,-0.007251,0.0047,-0.000692,0.016362,0.035354,0.002598,0.016485,-0.016055,-0.006055,0.001629,0.000663,0.006128,0.00266,0.0038 97,-0.006628,0.006364,0.006183,-0.011709,-0.006145,0.000958

SX18,0.0111,0.015,0.0128,-0.002,0.0167,-0.0026,0.002,-0.0003,0.008,0.0194,0.0016,0.011,-0.0108,-0.0044,0.0012,0.0005,0.0047,0.0021,0.0031,-0.0053,0.0051,0.005,-0.0095,-0.0051,0.0008


Western Austrian/Tyrol:

"sample": "Test1:Austrian_-_Austria10",
"fit": 2.3049,
"SX18_scaled": 43.33,
"DEU_MA_ACD": 27.5,
"DEU_MA": 24.17,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 5,


Few Alpine Lombards (for fun):

"sample": "Test1:Italian_Bergamo_-_HGDP01151",
"fit": 3.1616,
"SX18_scaled": 62.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 23.33,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 14.17,


"sample": "Test2:Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige_-_ALP259",
"fit": 1.7757,
"SX18_scaled": 55.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 30,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 14.17,


ITA_Collegno_MA is kind of a mixed bag far from being pure Langobardic or Germanic, that's why R1b-U106 can be less than 10% in Northern Italy even though Migration Period impact is almost certainly much higher:


It is certain that Alboin then brought with him to Italy many men from various peoples which either other kings or he himself had taken.
Whence, even until to-day, we call this villages in which they dwell Gepidian, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican or by other names of this kind.


Therefore, when king Alboin with his whole army and a multitude of people of all kinds had come to the limits of Italy [...]"


For it is certain that these Saxons had come to Italy with their wives and children that they might dwell in it, yet as far as can be understood they were unwilling to be subject to the commands of the Langobards.
But it was not permitted to them by the Langobards to live according to their own laws, and therefore they determined to go back to their own country.

[Peterski]

Few Alpine Lombards (for fun):

"sample": "Test1:Italian_Bergamo_-_HGDP01151",
"fit": 3.1616,
"SX18_scaled": 62.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 23.33,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 14.17,

"sample": "Test2:Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige_-_ALP259",
"fit": 1.7757,
"SX18_scaled": 55.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 30,
"ITA_Rome_Imperial": 14.17,

^^^ Wouldn't throwing some "Cisalpine Gauls" into the model improve the fit for Bergamo?

BTW, what exactly is the genetic difference between Emilia and Romagna?

Are there any GEDmatch kits of 100% Emilia people vs. 100% Romagna people available?

[Vid Flumina]

^^^ Wouldn't throwing some "Cisalpine Gauls" into the model improve the fit for Bergamo?

I guess so, not that I expect anything too much departing from SX18. The model was not serious anyway


BTW, what exactly is the genetic difference between Emilia and Romagna?

Are there any GEDmatch kits of 100% Emilia people vs. 100% Romagna people available?

Inbox.

[XenophobicPrussian]

dp

[XenophobicPrussian]

Is this that unlikely?

https://i.imgur.com/SdRmuq4.png

Even if you the historical samples with lower steppe there is a strong preference for Italic. You can test that yourself.
There isn't a preference for Italic, though. None of the models you posted even remotely compare the two. Why do you think I've been saying this? I've been trying to figure this out for awhile now.

The Swiss Italian sample is weird in of itself, very southern, more than some other Northern Italian ones. Regardless even using all Celtic samples from the Iron age, we get low Celtic values overall, in this one I excluded the woman from the late iron age but little changes:

https://i.imgur.com/NFeWj4g.png



Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8203,0.126344,0 .14319,0.051288,0.021641,0.037238,-0.005299,0.00094,0.004846,0.024747,0.026971,-0.003897,0.008992,-0.025272,-0.026011,0.008822,0.004906,0.012126,-0.003547,0.003268,0.003627,0.007487,0.000618,-0.001972,0.004458,-0.00467
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8209,0.12862,0. 145221,0.054682,0.013243,0.043393,0.009761,-0.001175,0.006,0.026384,0.033167,-0.006658,0.018434,-0.016501,-0.023121,0.011401,0.004508,0.005085,0.000127,0.003 897,-0.009254,0.001123,0.00507,0.002218,-0.009881,0.008263
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8206,0.125205,0 .127957,0.053928,0.048773,0.040931,0.013387,0.0068 15,0.006231,0.012067,0.014214,-0.001786,-0.005245,-0.015163,-0.018029,0.021444,0.011403,0.011735,0.010262,0.003 897,0.009129,0.009733,-0.000989,-0.004807,0.016629,0.006227
Celtic:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1:I8214,0.130897,0 .138112,0.058454,0.026809,0.046162,0.008367,-0.001175,-0.004154,0.016771,0.030069,-0.001624,0.009741,-0.022299,-0.014588,0.010586,0.00769,0.002868,0.002787,0.0036 45,0.001376,0.011105,0.006801,-0.00986,-0.012893,0.005628
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111,0.124067,0.15131 4,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002 308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269

Italic:ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.0331 87,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italic:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0 34318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981

Germanic:SWE_IA:RISE174,0.122929,0.123895,0.067127 ,0.058463,0.041238,0.02008,0.005875,0.007615,0.002 863,-0.009659,0.003735,0.001948,-0.006987,0.003853,0.020358,-0.006762,-0.015385,0.006461,0.009427,0.00025,0.00025,0.00284 4,0.002465,0.011447,0.000359
Germanic:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048 773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.001329 5,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429

Weird model, why are you using all the Empuires samples? Only one of them is a potential Gaul(I8206, probably from the NW/Central-West of France/Brittany area), the rest are local Iberians, and you didn't use any of said low steppe Swiss/Bavarian samples.

You really think Swiss French can be 46% Italic? Your Italic is inflated because you didn't include a proxy for southern shifted Imperial Romans(which probably made up the majority of migrants to the non-Italian parts of the empire, save for maybe in S. France when settlement by Italics was high during the initial conquest of Gaul during the Republic), I checked which Italic sample was scoring so high and it was specifically giving inflated Etruscan(anyone outside of Italy scoring more Etruscan than Italic speaker makes literally 0 sense) because they're the most southern shifted of Iron Age Italians, as a result the model gave more to compensate, whilist if having the needed southern admixture in the model will use less of it because it doesn't have to take something intermediary and overcompensate(for comparison, Etruscans clustered with Bergamo Italians, Imperial Roman average is around Greek islanders if not even more southern). Germanic in the French pops is also way too high because of using random Iberians as proxies for Celts.

Here's a better model with more realistic amounts of Roman admixture in Swiss, and using all Italian IA samples, as well as every single low steppe/N. Iberia/S. France clustering sample from Switzerland and Bavaria, the southern Hallstatt Bohemia sample, along with one mercenary outlier from the Tollense battlefield from NE Germany from around 1200 BC(was this guy a "Rhaetian" too? :laugh:), who was thought to be from southern Germany based on bone isotopes(I'd also include the Basque clustering outlier but he isn't on G25), and Empuires I8206 to not Germanic overcompensate in the French(labeled as "NorthCelt"):

model:


Germanic: DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039 792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
ImperialRoman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.149515 6,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
NorthCelt:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1_I8206,0.12520 5,0.127957,0.053928,0.048773,0.040931,0.013387,0.0 06815,0.006231,0.012067,0.014214,-0.001786,-0.005245,-0.015163,-0.018029,0.021444,0.011403,0.011735,0.010262,0.003 897,0.009129,0.009733,-0.000989,-0.004807,0.016629,0.006227
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016,0.127482,0.1472 52,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851,0.133173,0.1563 92,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Italic:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_RMPR435b,0.12862,0. 145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
Italic:ITA_Etruscan_RMPR473,0.127482,0.158423,0.03 5072,-0.020672,0.046778,-0.005299,0.00094,-0.000923,0.024952,0.03991,-0.002598,0.013188,-0.018434,-0.006606,-0.00665,-0.018828,-0.011865,0.003294,0.01081,0.00025,-0.001747,-0.000495,-0.000986,-0.000361,-0.003592
Italic:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA_RMPR1021,0.126344,0.1 52329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
Celtic:SX18_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.048271,-0.00646,0.051394,-0.007251,0.0047,-0.000692,0.016362,0.035354,0.002598,0.016485,-0.016055,-0.006055,0.001629,0.000663,0.006128,0.00266,0.0038 97,-0.006628,0.006364,0.006183,-0.011709,-0.006145,0.000958
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0. 008721,0.04924,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50,0.120652,0.153345,0.043746,-0.002584,0.052933,-0.003347,-0.00329,-0.002077,0.022293,0.031162,-0.005846,0.008692,-0.022299,-0.010459,-0.002172,0.014585,0.021253,0.004307,0.001257,-0.005753,0.00262,0.000124,0.002835,-0.005181,-0.010418
Celtic: DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
Celtic: DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57,0.129758,0.142174,0.0 50911,0.039406,0.044316,0.007251,-0.004935,0.008538,0.028429,0.024237,0.007957,0.007 194,-0.008622,-0.012248,-0.000407,0.004906,-0.000652,0.001014,-0.003017,0.000375,0.012852,0.009645,-0.009983,0.005784,-0.004071
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111,0.124067,0.15131 4,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002 308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0 .012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.0139 08,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479
Celtic:Constance_MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.05543 7,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.0177 94,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Celtic:Constance_MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322, 0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8211% / 0.00821085
36.6 DEU_MA
13.6 St_Gallen
11.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
9.6 DEU_Lech_EBA
9.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.4 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
6.0 ITA_Etruscan
5.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
2.8 DEU_Lech_MBA

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.0261% / 0.01026134
30.0 DEU_Lech_EBA
20.8 St_Gallen
17.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
12.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
7.4 DEU_MA
6.6 ITA_Etruscan
3.2 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
1.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.6 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.4 DEU_Lech_MBA

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8212% / 0.00821158
36.2 Germanic
32.6 Celtic
11.4 NorthCelt
10.6 Italic
9.2 ImperialRoman

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.0261% / 0.01026134
54.4 Celtic
17.8 NorthCelt
12.2 ImperialRoman
8.2 Italic
7.4 Germanic

Target: Belgian
Distance: 0.8140% / 0.00814021
39.0 Germanic
28.2 Celtic
21.4 NorthCelt
7.8 ImperialRoman
3.6 Italic

Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 0.8360% / 0.00836011
52.2 Germanic
30.8 Celtic
9.4 ImperialRoman
7.6 Italic

Target: French_Auvergne
Distance: 0.4788% / 0.00478808
45.0 Celtic
25.6 Italic
16.8 Germanic
6.6 NorthCelt
6.0 ImperialRoman

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 1.3112% / 0.01311153
48.8 Germanic
21.0 NorthCelt
18.4 Celtic
11.8 Italic
(Brittany needs something British Isles of course, extremely inflated Germanic and far worse fit than the rest)

Target: French_Corsica
Distance: 0.4605% / 0.00460509
44.0 Italic
32.0 ImperialRoman
22.4 Celtic
1.6 NorthCelt

Target: French_Nord
Distance: 0.8647% / 0.00864742
41.2 Germanic
32.0 Celtic
10.0 Italic
9.6 NorthCelt
7.2 ImperialRoman

Target: French_Occitanie
Distance: 0.4788% / 0.00478839
45.0 Celtic
26.2 Italic
12.2 Germanic
11.6 NorthCelt
5.0 ImperialRoman

Target: German
Distance: 1.3430% / 0.01343032
72.6 Germanic
25.4 Celtic
2.0 ImperialRoman
(needs Slavic of course, should get around 15% nearly all of it coming out of the 72% Germanic)

Target: Italian_Bergamo
Distance: 0.8938% / 0.00893786
43.0 Italic
23.6 ImperialRoman
20.0 Celtic
11.2 Germanic
2.2 NorthCelt

Target: Italian_Piedmont
Distance: 0.6388% / 0.00638768
39.4 ImperialRoman
27.4 Italic
15.4 Germanic
13.6 Celtic
4.2 NorthCelt


Lone models of Swiss with either/or Italic or southern shifted Alpine samples:

Italic only:

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.9593% / 0.00959330
50.4 Germanic
31.4 Italic
11.0 NorthCelt
7.2 ImperialRoman

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.2820% / 0.01282033
45.6 Italic
26.6 Germanic
16.8 NorthCelt
11.0 ImperialRoman

Southern shifted Alpine only:

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.8504% / 0.00850357
42.2 Celtic
30.6 Germanic
16.0 NorthCelt
11.2 ImperialRoman

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.0399% / 0.01039939
61.2 Celtic
21.4 NorthCelt
14.2 ImperialRoman
3.2 Germanic

Yep, it's pretty clear to me now how Hallstatt/La Tene samples are going to wind up looking like.

[J. Ketch]

I'm sticking with the Celts being Northern French / Central Western European-like. It makes the most sense to me for a variety of reasons.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I'm sticking with the Celts being Northern French / Central Western European-like. It makes the most sense to me for a variety of reasons.
We already know they weren't though, because of all the Iberian-S French-like samples, who get higher in number the later the samples are. The Northern French are the upper tip of the genetic cline of the samples, the average is going to be a lot more south.

Northern French are, by all intents and purposes, Northern Europeans, you're basically arguing for a Bell Beaker replacement of Neolithic farmers in a latitude as low as Switzerland more comparable to the replacement of British Isles neolithic farmers than neighbouring Italy, or nearby Hungary. Not to mention the Alpine region was one of the most populated and most culturally developed neolithic area outside of southern Europe. In a place like Scandinavia, Netherlands, England, N. Germany, where populations were tiny, near full population replacements seem plausible, in central Europe around the Alps? I guess it's possible, given the Alps are the biggest genetic border in Europe today, but it just seems highly unlikely.

Target: Constance:MX279
Distance: 2.9491% / 0.02949132
77.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
19.4 FRA_MN
3.2 AUT_LBK_N
(one of the N. French-like Swiss BA samples)

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 1.7005% / 0.01700488
77.6 Bell_Beaker_NLD
11.4 AUT_LBK_N
11.0 FRA_MN

Target: England_MBA
Distance: 1.0496% / 0.01049620
88.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
11.6 FRA_MN

Target: English
Distance: 2.1195% / 0.02119519
81.2 Bell_Beaker_NLD
10.4 AUT_LBK_N
8.4 FRA_MN

----------------------------------

Areas closer to Switzerland(Hungary, Italy) and equally far as England(Iberia):

Target: HUN_BA
Distance: 2.0107% / 0.02010734
61.4 AUT_LBK_N
36.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
1.8 LUX_Loschbour

Target: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
Distance: 3.5805% / 0.03580536
40.0 AUT_LBK_N
39.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
20.2 FRA_MN

Target: Iberia_North_BA
Distance: 1.4066% / 0.01406614
55.6 FRA_MN
37.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
5.2 AUT_LBK_N
2.2 LUX_Loschbour


-------------------------------

This seems more likely as what happened in Switzerland, something intermediary:

Target: French_Occitanie
Distance: 1.1324% / 0.01132432
63.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
23.8 AUT_LBK_N
12.8 FRA_MN

Can I see it for proto-Celts? Sure, they were probably even more northern than N. French but by the time of Hallstatt, La Tene, the Roman Republic, to me there's no way a population as north shifted as N. French lived in Switzerland.

[SharpFork]

There isn't a preference for Italic, though. None of the models you posted even remotely compare the two. Why do you think I've been saying this? I've been trying to figure this out for awhile now.

How is there no preference for Italic, even using your "Basque" like samples, French people and Swiss tend to score a lot of Italic, like I said including or excluding certain samples doesn't change the trend.



Weird model, why are you using all the Empuires samples? Only one of them is a potential Gaul(I8206, probably from the NW/Central-West of France/Brittany area), the rest are local Iberians, and you didn't use any of said low steppe Swiss/Bavarian samples.

You are making contradictory steps, if Empuries couldn't possibly have been Celtic then why do you think early Celts were southern French or NW-Iberian like? All 3 non-British-like Empuries samples are either on the same level as the Western Czech Bylany sample or are northern than the late Iron age swiss woman. Also Iberia_East_IA and Iberia_North_IA all had noticeable and consistently lower Steppe than Empuries1, I think it's fair to assume all 3 samples are Celt. Or do you think that Southern French were northern and ended becoming more Southern as the Basque-like Celts mixed with them? I don't follow.
I didn't use the Lech MBA samples because they are simply too early, I believe the missing centuries would blurry the model.


You really think Swiss French can be 46% Italic?
Honestly I'm not sure but I would say no, but at the same time I'm not sure why many people think the Roman conquests and rule would have had a minor impact when for all accounts they didn't(in Italy we have the evidence, and we could argue that indirectly Greece and Iberia too)

Regardless like I said the model favours Italic over Celtic, it's pretty evident in Northern Italy, even in your example Central French populations get 30+% Italic+Imperial.


Your Italic is inflated because you didn't include a proxy for southern shifted Imperial Romans(which probably made up the majority of migrants to the non-Italian parts of the empire, save for maybe in S. France when settlement by Italics was high during the initial conquest of Gaul during the Republic), I checked which Italic sample was scoring so high and it was specifically giving inflated Etruscan(anyone outside of Italy scoring more Etruscan than Italic speaker makes literally 0 sense) because they're the most southern shifted of Iron Age Italians, as a result the model gave more to compensate, whilist if having the needed southern admixture in the model will use less of it because it doesn't have to take something intermediary and overcompensate(for comparison, Etruscans clustered with Bergamo Italians, Imperial Roman average is around Greek islanders if not even more southern). Germanic in the French pops is also way too high because of using random Iberians as proxies for Celts.
Southern shifted Romans appeared because Italy became a hub of slaves and urban migrants, I'm not sure why the Roman conquest up to the early imperial age would have spread the genes of slaves and immigrants when Roman colonies were of Italic military origin.

Do we see markers of Near Eastern or North African components north of Provence to warrant using urban imperial samples outside Northern Italy? I mean the Imperial Roman samples comes up with 25% ancient near eastern components but we don't see any of that north of Provence.


Here's a better model with more realistic amounts of Roman admixture in Swiss, and using all Italian IA samples, as well as every single low steppe/N. Iberia/S. France clustering sample from Switzerland and Bavaria, the southern Hallstatt Bohemia sample, along with one mercenary outlier from the Tollense battlefield from NE Germany from around 1200 BC(was this guy a "Rhaetian" too? :laugh:), who was thought to be from southern Germany based on bone isotopes(I'd also include the Basque clustering outlier but he isn't on G25), and Empuires I8206 to not Germanic overcompensate in the French(labeled as "NorthCelt"):
I thought all(?) samples from Tollense were low quality.

Ultimately I still see too many faults in all models we made. I still have hard time accepting that the bulk of the Celtic population was 30-35% when 2 Italic samples such as proto-Villanovan and Prenestini_tribe are at like 33-35% Steppe level, also the levels of Italic and Germanic ancestry in French samples baffles me, I believe this as absurd as any result you would have gotten using a more northern proxy for Celts.
Northern France ends up appearing very Germanic and it seems to me that the "Northern Celt" component is not doing its job properly, if France had that much Germanic admixture there would be no French speaking nation, all Neustria and more would have Germanized but evidence shows that past the Loire there wasn't any real influence and even in Neustria we didn't have a situation like Belgium or the Rhineland.

This implies that Celts, if they were this southern, didn't influence Northern Celtized people(Northern France, Belgium, Middle Germany even) that much(maybe just 10-20%) which while possible does re-frame entire discussion, because I honestly can't believe that Germanic populations had actually such a large impact as far south as Occitania when modern Germany past the Rhine or the Main is already relatively southern and not especially close to Scandinavians or Lower Saxons(based on gedmatch).

There is 2 ways we can really explain how ALL of the Frenchies outside Basques and Corsicans are more northern than the Swiss and southern Lech samples and I believe Germanics cannot be the culprit based on historical and linguistic grounds while locals+Celts having already looked like this works better.

I can agree that using "Rhaetians" is a cop out but at the same time I think that the Celtic phenomenon might have been ultimately "multi-racial"(as multi-racial as central Europeans can be) even if the original Celtic areas were 30-35% Steppe(Basque-like). Or maybe talking about original celtic areas makes no sense and Celts expanded from a sizeable region with different genetic make-up, anything other than the existence of "original celts" will destroy all models, because the La Tene Celts that invaded 4th century BCE Italy would have been different to the Celts that expanded into France or Britain earlier.

[XenophobicPrussian]

How is there no preference for Italic, even using your "Basque" like samples, French people and Swiss tend to score a lot of Italic, like I said including or excluding certain samples doesn't change the trend.



You are making contradictory steps, if Empuries couldn't possibly have been Celtic then why do you think early Celts were southern French or NW-Iberian like? All 3 non-British-like Empuries samples are either on the same level as the Western Czech Bylany sample or are northern than the late Iron age swiss woman. Also Iberia_East_IA and Iberia_North_IA all had noticeable and consistently lower Steppe than Empuries1, I think it's fair to assume all 3 samples are Celt. Or do you think that Southern French were northern and ended becoming more Southern as the Basque-like Celts mixed with them? I don't follow.
I didn't use the Lech MBA samples because they are simply too early, I believe the missing centuries would blurry the model.


Honestly I'm not sure but I would say no, but at the same time I'm not sure why many people think the Roman conquests and rule would have had a minor impact when for all accounts they didn't(in Italy we have the evidence, and we could argue that indirectly Greece and Iberia too)

Regardless like I said the model favours Italic over Celtic, it's pretty evident in Northern Italy, even in your example Central French populations get 30+% Italic+Imperial.


Southern shifted Romans appeared because Italy became a hub of slaves and urban migrants, I'm not sure why the Roman conquest up to the early imperial age would have spread the genes of slaves and immigrants when Roman colonies were of Italic military origin.

Do we see markers of Near Eastern or North African components north of Provence to warrant using urban imperial samples outside Northern Italy? I mean the Imperial Roman samples comes up with 25% ancient near eastern components but we don't see any of that north of Provence.


I thought all(?) samples from Tollense were low quality.

Ultimately I still see too many faults in all models we made. I still have hard time accepting that the bulk of the Celtic population was 30-35% when 2 Italic samples such as proto-Villanovan and Prenestini_tribe are at like 33-35% Steppe level, also the levels of Italic and Germanic ancestry in French samples baffles me, I believe this as absurd as any result you would have gotten using a more northern proxy for Celts.
Northern France ends up appearing very Germanic and it seems to me that the "Northern Celt" component is not doing its job properly, if France had that much Germanic admixture there would be no French speaking nation, all Neustria and more would have Germanized but evidence shows that past the Loire there wasn't any real influence and even in Neustria we didn't have a situation like Belgium or the Rhineland.

This implies that Celts if they were this southern didn't influence Northern Celts that much(maybe just 10-20%) which while possible does re-frame entire discussion, because I honestly can't believe that Germanic populations had actually such a large impact as far south as Occitania when Germany past the Rhine or the Main is already quite southern and not especially close to Scandinavians or Lower Saxons(based on gedmatch).

There is 2 ways we can really explain how ALL of the Frenchies outside Basques and Corsicans are more northern than the Swiss and southern Lech samples and I believe Germanics cannot be the culprit based on historical and linguistic grounds.

I can agree that using "Rhaetians" is a cop out but at the same time I think that the Celtic phenomenon might have been ultimately "multi-racial"(as multi-racial as central Europeans can be) even if the original Celtic areas were 30-35% Steppe(Basque-like).
"Favor", in this case, means score more of. Swiss Germans/French(who really are the only two populations I'm arguing about) do not score more of Italic than they do the samples I labeled Celtic. I never once argued Swiss don't have Roman admixture, it's the how much I'm arguing about. You, and others, argue for Swiss pretty much being the result of northern Europeans+southern Europeans, I make the argument they're a mix of northern+already central+southern, and more northern/central. You and token have modeled Swiss as 30-50% Italic, I argue the number is below 20%. The fits are literally better when using the samples I labeled Celtic than Italic if I use them seperately, and together Swiss/French populations score much more Celtic than they do Italic. How do you get favoring Italics from any of this information?

Obviously it favors Italic in Italy, what does that have to do with anything? I was literally only arguing about the Swiss and Italians favoring Italics whilist Swiss favoring Celts literally supports my argument. You make good points about the other Empuires samples, but what are the chances of them sampling all 5 Celtic migrants? Here's the problem with this point, even though it's a decent one, we have no idea if the Celts in Iberia are from the actual Celtic homeland of the Alps and Hallstatt/La Tene. Celts in Iberia could've came from literally anywhere and acquired more admixture in France, how likely is it they went straight from Switzerland to Iberia? If they came from or passed through W France and then just followed the coast, it makes sense they'd be more northern because coastal central/NW France did have large Bell Beaker replacements because of low population density, the Bell Beakers from Britanny are more northern shifted than the only other BB samples from Central and southern France. Again, fine enough point but it's just silly to use samples from Iberia to use as Celts when you literally have samples from the Celtic homeland, and they aren't that old, some are mid-1000s BC, lots of ethnicity specific genetic drift already present in populations of that age.

As for your point on Germanic ancestry in the French, yes I agree, I was only trying to not stray too far away from your original model. I said as much myself, French(especially Britanny, but all of them do) need LBA/MBA insular Briton(French Beaker works as well) to remove inflated Germanic, that still has nothing to do with what I'm originally arguing about: Roman admixture in Swiss people(of whom Germanic admixture was also inflated in your models).

and yes, we do see Near Eastern/North African components north of Provence, why would there be more Republican era migrants than Imperial outside of Italy when Republican Rome held Gaulish/Celtic lands for what, 100-50 years, while Imperial Rome held them for what, nearly 400-500? While the Imperial Rome sample is just a mishmash of native Romans, immigrants, and their mixes, there is substantial evidence the average Roman(not dwellant of the city of Rome but inhabitant of Italy) was South Italian-Greek Islander like because of the impact said Imperial immigrants, as one Roman colonist in Iberia shows, and the Collegno outliers in Northern Italy and Pannonia/Hungary(the outliers to the Scandinavian-like Germanic migrants, not Republican Roman-like other Italians).

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 1.4513% / 0.01451293
61.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
31.0 AUT_LBK_N
5.0 FRA_MN
1.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o

Target: French_Auvergne
Distance: 0.9754% / 0.00975433
62.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
27.4 AUT_LBK_N
9.0 FRA_MN
1.0 Mozabite
0.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o

Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 1.4406% / 0.01440605
71.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
27.0 AUT_LBK_N
1.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o

and that's not even getting into Y-DNA, most of the exotic Y-DNA found in Europe today(your Es, Js, Ts, what have you) is nearly completely absent from neolithic farmers, especially in western European farmers.

I guarantee you when Hallstatt/La Tene samples finally get released(I agree with you they need to stop fucking studying neolithic and bronze age populations whom we know everything about already) and they show up as N. Iberian/SW French or even Central French people are going to be saying "hue hue Rhaetians" when similar samples already exist 1k years before then as far north as fucking Mecklenburg.

[J. Ketch]

We already know they weren't though, because of all the Iberian-S French-like samples, who get higher in number the later the samples are. The Northern French are the upper tip of the genetic cline of the samples, the average is going to be a lot more south.

Northern French are, by all intents and purposes, Northern Europeans, you're basically arguing for a Bell Beaker replacement of Neolithic farmers in a latitude as low as Switzerland more comparable to the replacement of British Isles neolithic farmers than neighbouring Italy, or nearby Hungary. Not to mention the Alpine region was one of the most populated and most culturally developed neolithic area outside of southern Europe. In a place like Scandinavia, Netherlands, England, N. Germany, where populations were tiny, near full population replacements seem plausible, in central Europe around the Alps? I guess it's possible, given the Alps are the biggest genetic border in Europe today, but it just seems highly unlikely.

Target: Constance:MX279
Distance: 2.9491% / 0.02949132
77.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
19.4 FRA_MN
3.2 AUT_LBK_N
(one of the N. French-like Swiss BA samples)

Target: French_Brittany
Distance: 1.7005% / 0.01700488
77.6 Bell_Beaker_NLD
11.4 AUT_LBK_N
11.0 FRA_MN

Target: England_MBA
Distance: 1.0496% / 0.01049620
88.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
11.6 FRA_MN

Target: English
Distance: 2.1195% / 0.02119519
81.2 Bell_Beaker_NLD
10.4 AUT_LBK_N
8.4 FRA_MN

----------------------------------

Areas closer to Switzerland(Hungary, Italy) and equally far as England(Iberia):

Target: HUN_BA
Distance: 2.0107% / 0.02010734
61.4 AUT_LBK_N
36.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
1.8 LUX_Loschbour

Target: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
Distance: 3.5805% / 0.03580536
40.0 AUT_LBK_N
39.8 Bell_Beaker_NLD
20.2 FRA_MN

Target: Iberia_North_BA
Distance: 1.4066% / 0.01406614
55.6 FRA_MN
37.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
5.2 AUT_LBK_N
2.2 LUX_Loschbour


-------------------------------

This seems more likely as what happened in Switzerland, something intermediary:

Target: French_Occitanie
Distance: 1.1324% / 0.01132432
63.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
23.8 AUT_LBK_N
12.8 FRA_MN

Can I see it for proto-Celts? Sure, they were probably even more northern than N. French but by the time of Hallstatt, La Tene, the Roman Republic, to me there's no way a population as north shifted as N. French lived in Switzerland.
With your model of Celts as Southern French like, roughly how much genetic impact do you believe early unmixed Celts had in the following places?

1. Northernmost France/Belgium/Southern Netherlands (Belgae territory)
2. Southern Britain
3. Ireland
4. Iberia

[SharpFork]

"Favor", in this case, means score more of. Swiss Germans/French(who really are the only two populations I'm arguing about) do not score more of Italic than they do the samples I labeled Celtic. I never once argued Swiss don't have Roman admixture, it's the how much I'm arguing about. You, and others, argue for Swiss pretty much being the result of northern Europeans+southern Europeans, I make the argument they're a mix of northern+already central+southern, and more northern/central. You and token have modeled Swiss as 30-50% Italic, I argue the number is below 20%. The fits are literally better when using the samples I labeled Celtic than Italic if I use them seperately, and together Swiss/French populations score much more Celtic than they do Italic. How do you get favoring Italics from any of this information?
I don't believe that Celts were 45-50% Steppe, rather I imagine they were exactly midway between Italics/Iberians and pre-Celtic Britons and Scandinavians, that is around 40% Steppe, if that were the case the homeland model for Celtic expansion would work better, although obviously there is no inherent reason why it should.

The "favoring" Italic bit was referring to all the models, despite you using Italic and Celtic sample very close to one another you ended up with Central and Southern French scoring 30+% Italic, that's what I mean by "favoring", for some reason the model prefers Etruscans to the Swiss/Lech samples.


You make good points about the other Empuires samples, but what are the chances of them sampling all 5 Celtic migrants?
Empuries is basically on the French-Spanish border, if the locals were not Celts I think they can say something about how Southern French Celts looked and to me it would be surprising if Celts/Celtized southern France ended up looking more Southern than those N-E Iberians.


Here's the problem with this point, even though it's a decent one, we have no idea if the Celts in Iberia are from the actual Celtic homeland of the Alps and Hallstatt/La Tene. Celts in Iberia could've came from literally anywhere and acquired more admixture in France, how likely is it they went straight from Switzerland to Iberia? If they came from or passed through W France and then just followed the coast, it makes sense they'd be more northern because coastal central/NW France did have large Bell Beaker replacements because of low population density, the Bell Beakers from Britanny are more northern shifted than the only other BB samples from Central and southern France. Again, fine enough point but it's just silly to use samples from Iberia to use as Celts when you literally have samples from the Celtic homeland, and they aren't that old, some are mid-1000s BC, lots of ethnicity specific genetic drift already present in populations of that age.
I'll try to look more into the archeology of early Hallstatt to understand better how it expanded, at least we can agree that the early Celtic expansion must have involved a fair amount of assimilation to preserve at least partially the northerness of Northern France and the British isles and to even spread it to Southern France.

Did you consider any other theory on how Celts spread outside the classical Hallstatt-La Tene theory?


As for your point on Germanic ancestry in the French, yes I agree, I was only trying to not stray too far away from your original model. I said as much myself, French(especially Britanny, but all of them do) need LBA/MBA insular Briton(French Beaker works as well) to remove inflated Germanic, that still has nothing to do with what I'm originally arguing about: Roman admixture in Swiss people(of whom Germanic admixture was also inflated in your models).
My model was just to compare using northern and non-northern samples for Celts, I just wanted to show that both concepts fail at explaining both Northern France and the Alpine region in one single swoop.


and yes, we do see Near Eastern/North African components north of Provence, why would there be more Republican era migrants than Imperial outside of Italy when Republican Rome held Gaulish/Celtic lands for what, 100-50 years,
I based my claim on ancient components based model, when you use later ones for some reason the non-European adxmiture becomes more evident. I noticed it some time ago with Iberian models already but I'm not sure why G25 works like this.


while Imperial Rome held them for what, nearly 400-500? While the Imperial Rome sample is just a mishmash of native Romans, immigrants, and their mixes, there is substantial evidence the average Roman(not dwellant of the city of Rome but inhabitant of Italy) was South Italian-Greek Islander like because of the impact said Imperial immigrants, as one Roman colonist in Iberia shows, and the Collegno outliers in Northern Italy and Pannonia/Hungary(the outliers to the Scandinavian-like Germanic migrants, not Republican Roman-like other Italians).
You are not wrong but the problem with Rome_Imperial it's that it's a bit of an abstract proxy, because we can safely say that within Italy it was an extreme outlier that in effect didn't directly influence all of the territories you showed(especially not Northern Italy) while on the other hand more MENA populations directly influenced the gene pool of northern Roman territories somewhat, I'm not sure how the models would look if we adjust for using iron age North Africans and Anatolians/Levantines.


and that's not even getting into Y-DNA, most of the exotic Y-DNA found in Europe today(your Es, Js, Ts, what have you) is nearly completely absent from neolithic farmers, especially in western European farmers.
I don't know much about Y-DNA, but didn't we find E around Bronze age Europe?



I guarantee you when Hallstatt/La Tene samples finally get released(I agree with you they need to stop fucking studying neolithic and bronze age populations whom we know everything about already) and they show up as N. Iberian/SW French or even Central French people are going to be saying "hue hue Rhaetians" when similar samples already exist 1k years before then as far north as fucking Mecklenburg.
I mean how do we explain Empuries1? The 3 non northern samples and Bylany:DA111 are already 34-38% Steppe and given how modern France looks, having early Celts be 30-35% Steppe implies that there was little replacement insofar as Northern France goes, or maybe Celtic was spread into southern France after the mixing and Celtization of Northern France(EDIT:like you said, I reply non-chronologically, don't mind this entire part).

BTW this leads me to question, were Basque at time basque-like themselves? All Iberian samples are quite a bit less Steppe, although not especially so.

[J. Ketch]

I don't believe that Celts were 45-50% Steppe, rather I imagine they were exactly midway between Italics/Iberians and pre-Celtic Britons and Scandinavians, that is around 40% Steppe, if that were the case the homeland model for Celtic expansion would work better, although obviously there is no inherent reason why it should.
Agreed, to me it explains the equally Northern and Southern shifts of SW Europe and NW Europe respectively, between the Bronze Age and Iron Age/Present.

[SharpFork]

Agreed, to me it explains the equally Northern and Southern shifts of SW Europe and NW Europe respectively, between the Bronze Age and Iron Age/Present.
At the same time the theory that Bell Bearized- Celts expanded into Iberia and Britain would also explain that...
I guess at this point we need more on either the Middle German region or the Eastern Celtic region to see if we see any difference. So far HRV_IA and the Western Bylany are in the 35-40% range, maybe the reality is that somehow Celts ended up expanding from a core region that was relatively southern but ended up being middle of the road by assimilating their direct neighbours in all directions. Bizzarre but not really impossible or impossible to believe given the evidence we have.

[J. Ketch]

At the same time the theory that Bell Bearized- Celts expanded into Iberia and Britain would also explain that...
I guess at this point we need more on either the Middle German region or the Eastern Celtic region to see if we see any difference. So far HRV_IA and the Western Bylany are in the 35-40% range, maybe the reality is that somehow Celts ended up expanding from a core region that was relatively southern but ended up being middle of the road by assimilating their direct neighbours in all directions. Bizzarre but not really impossible or impossible to believe given the evidence we have.
Yes, well, Occam's razor and all that. It could well be the case, certainly for places like Scotland or Ireland where any non-NW European input seems a bit small to affect a major language/cultural change directly.

[Raizen]

you guys are wrong in assuming celts were all the same. the celts that got into britain and iberia were already mixed with French_BA, they didn't just jumped over france and settled these places. xenophobicprussian is prob. referring to celts from the core celtic area, which is a direct continuation of hallstatt culture. these would be sw european-like.

[SharpFork]

Here's a summary showing all iron age samples surrounding Celts during this period plus some Bronze age ones and also including the Lech samples and recent Iron age Celtic samples + presumed Celts from earlier samples, I didn't include Bronze age Swiss samples:

https://i.imgur.com/fJtHL03.png

[SharpFork]

you guys are wrong in assuming celts were all the same. the celts that got into britain and iberia were already mixed with French_BA, they didn't just jumped over france and settled these places. xenophobicprussian is prob. referring to celts from the core celtic area, which is a direct continuation of hallstatt culture. these would be sw european-like.
You must agree that it's peculiar that population as far south as Latium had as much Steppes people on the other side of the Alps, you can understand the skepticism.

[TheOldNorth]

Because ancient celt peoples were not one people and recent genetic evidence does not support the notion of a significant genetic link between these peoples.

basically they used inodeuropean languages, and some of them shared some cultural costumes.

The term "celtic" encompassed many realities.

Maybe those Celt ancient individuals had nothing to do with those who settled in Ireland.Or they did...

This is false modern propaganda, traces of Hallstatt related DNA can be found in modern Welsh, and Scottish and to a lesser extant Irish, it does make up a small percent, probably 10-15% but if that and their languages doesn’t make them Celtic, then what does that make the Turks? Or the northwestern English?

[Raizen]

You must agree that it's peculiar that population as far south as Latium had as much Steppes people on the other side of the Alps, you can understand the skepticism.

but italic people came from the other side of the alps. the proto-villanovan had croation isotopes, don't he look very similar to the italics?

[XenophobicPrussian]

With your model of Celts as Southern French like, roughly how much genetic impact do you believe early unmixed Celts had in the following places?

1. Northernmost France/Belgium/Southern Netherlands (Belgae territory)
2. Southern Britain
3. Ireland
4. Iberia
Well, here's my go to model for Western Europeans+new Swiss samples. Every single sample labeled Celtic has their closest distance to a N. Iberian or S. French population. I still use Collegno_o1 to represent Imperial Romans in my go to model over Imperial_Rome because the Imperial_Rome sample was likely too southern shifted for the average Italian colonist, a plurality of samples were Cyprus like, not to mention all the literal fresh off the boat MENA immigrants, South Italian-Greek islander seems more about right to me. Based on K36 results south of the Rhine Dutch are pretty different from all other Dutch and Flemish are pretty different from Walloons, so there's definitely some regional variation there, but those pops aren't on G25.

model(same model for all the pops, if you use the model yourself I recommend using DEU_MA as individuals rather than the average, not a good idea comparing averages of pops vs individuals of pops, I was just too lazy):

ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,0.1069937,0.14860 57,-0.0248897,-0.0551253,0.0057443,-0.016083,-0.0018017,-0.003769,0.0008863,0.0154293,0.007091,0.0059443,-0.008325,0.000642,-0.0068313,-0.0010607,0.008388,-0.001098,0.004483,0.0007087,-0.001539,0.002267,0.0031223,0.0018077,0.0015967
Celtic:SX18_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.048271,-0.00646,0.051394,-0.007251,0.0047,-0.000692,0.016362,0.035354,0.002598,0.016485,-0.016055,-0.006055,0.001629,0.000663,0.006128,0.00266,0.0038 97,-0.006628,0.006364,0.006183,-0.011709,-0.006145,0.000958
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0. 008721,0.04924,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50,0.120652,0.153345,0.043746,-0.002584,0.052933,-0.003347,-0.00329,-0.002077,0.022293,0.031162,-0.005846,0.008692,-0.022299,-0.010459,-0.002172,0.014585,0.021253,0.004307,0.001257,-0.005753,0.00262,0.000124,0.002835,-0.005181,-0.010418
Celtic: DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
Celtic: DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57,0.129758,0.142174,0.0 50911,0.039406,0.044316,0.007251,-0.004935,0.008538,0.028429,0.024237,0.007957,0.007 194,-0.008622,-0.012248,-0.000407,0.004906,-0.000652,0.001014,-0.003017,0.000375,0.012852,0.009645,-0.009983,0.005784,-0.004071
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111,0.124067,0.15131 4,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002 308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0 .012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.0139 08,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479
Celtic:Constance_MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.05543 7,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.0177 94,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Celtic:Constance_MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322, 0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA,0.1297585,0.133542,0.0630732,0 .0527298,0.0351605,0.0193132,0.0061102,0.0030575,0 .001892,-0.0027338,-0.0060082,0.0064818,-0.0180252,-0.0164115,0.024226,0.0058672,-0.0143422,0.0036108,0.0032995,0.0005313,0.0056462, 0.0044822,-0.0003393,0.0042172,0.0041315
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016,0.127482,0.1472 52,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851,0.133173,0.1563 92,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Germanic: DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039 792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594
Iberia_Central_BA,0.1239044,0.1505886,0.059639,0.0 003691,0.0686281,-0.0074901,-0.0052371,-0.0001319,0.0395609,0.0550354,-0.0029926,0.01291,-0.0243167,-0.019621,0.0066116,0.0103233,0.0156089,-0.0004163,-0.0021549,0.0007146,0.0115154,-0.0001766,-0.0088561,-0.020261,0.0028397

Target: English_Cornwall
Distance: 1.2712% / 0.01271192
43.4 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
29.6 Germanic
27.0 Celtic
(darkest eyed British Isles pop scores the most S. French-like Celt, coincidence?)

Target: English
Distance: 1.1496% / 0.01149641
45.2 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
34.0 Germanic
19.2 Celtic
1.6 Italic

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.3893% / 0.01389258
72.6 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
16.4 Germanic
11.0 Celtic

Target: Dutch
Distance: 1.0855% / 0.01085496
71.2 Germanic
15.0 Celtic
13.8 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker

Target: Belgian
Distance: 0.8557% / 0.00855729
35.8 Germanic
24.8 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
23.6 Celtic
8.6 Italic
7.2 ImperialRoman

Target: French_Nord
Distance: 0.8087% / 0.00808733
34.2 Celtic
28.8 Germanic
21.6 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
8.6 ImperialRoman
6.8 Italic

Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
Distance: 0.9247% / 0.00924716
39.8 Celtic
25.0 Iberia_Central_BA
17.4 ImperialRoman
8.0 Italic
5.0 Mozabite
4.8 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker



I don't believe that Celts were 45-50% Steppe, rather I imagine they were exactly midway between Italics/Iberians and pre-Celtic Britons and Scandinavians, that is around 40% Steppe, if that were the case the homeland model for Celtic expansion would work better, although obviously there is no inherent reason why it should.

The "favoring" Italic bit was referring to all the models, despite you using Italic and Celtic sample very close to one another you ended up with Central and Southern French scoring 30+% Italic, that's what I mean by "favoring", for some reason the model prefers Etruscans to the Swiss/Lech samples.


Empuries is basically on the French-Spanish border, if the locals were not Celts I think they can say something about how Southern French Celts looked and to me it would be surprising if Celts/Celtized southern France ended up looking more Southern than those N-E Iberians.


I'll try to look more into the archeology of early Hallstatt to understand better how it expanded, at least we can agree that the early Celtic expansion must have involved a fair amount of assimilation to preserve at least partially the northerness of Northern France and the British isles and to even spread it to Southern France.

Did you consider any other theory on how Celts spread outside the classical Hallstatt-La Tene theory?


My model was just to compare using northern and non-northern samples for Celts, I just wanted to show that both concepts fail at explaining both Northern France and the Alpine region in one single swoop.


I based my claim on ancient components based model, when you use later ones for some reason the non-European adxmiture becomes more evident. I noticed it some time ago with Iberian models already but I'm not sure why G25 works like this.


You are not wrong but the problem with Rome_Imperial it's that it's a bit of an abstract proxy, because we can safely say that within Italy it was an extreme outlier that in effect didn't directly influence all of the territories you showed(especially not Northern Italy) while on the other hand more MENA populations directly influenced the gene pool of northern Roman territories somewhat, I'm not sure how the models would look if we adjust for using iron age North Africans and Anatolians/Levantines.


I don't know much about Y-DNA, but didn't we find E around Bronze age Europe?



I mean how do we explain Empuries1? The 3 non northern samples and Bylany:DA111 are already 34-38% Steppe and given how modern France looks, having early Celts be 30-35% Steppe implies that there was little replacement insofar as Northern France goes, or maybe Celtic was spread into southern France after the mixing and Celtization of Northern France(EDIT:like you said, I reply non-chronologically, don't mind this entire part).

BTW this leads me to question, were Basque at time basque-like themselves? All Iberian samples are quite a bit less Steppe, although not especially so.
Maybe the Empuires samples were even all Celts, it's still silly, imo, to use samples from Iberia instead of from the actual Alps, regardless of age. If anything the older age of the Alpine samples should make them prefer any newer Italic samples but they don't. I do not disagree with late period Alpine Celts being 34-40% steppe. The only thing I disagree with is people with however much % steppe N. French have making up the average of people in the Hallstatt/La Tene period Alps.

No samples from the Basque area, but as far as I know, Iberia, from the North-East all the way to Portugal, was Basque-like pre-Celtic/Roman invasions, going on PCA plot position. Not just "around Basque", but very specifically Basque. Celts likely shifted them north as Empuires shows but North Africans and Imperial Romans back down to modern Iberians. Southern France clearly got more southern via Imperial Roman admixture, perhaps even modern Spanish, but may also likely have extra northern admixture from post-medieval northern French migrating, etc, which can explain why they still cluster around my hypothesized Celts. It's like N. Italians, they are almost identical to Etruscans but obviously they are not 100% Etruscan, nowhere close to it, despite circumstances of later migrations making them extremely similar.

E has been found in neolithic Europe, nearly all of it in the south-east, nearly all of it the specific clade E-V13, and still in tiny tiny amounts, nowhere close to the rate modern Europeans have it. J has even been found in EHGs and Yamnaya, that does not mean the vast majority of modern European J isn't from later Middle-Eastern migrations.

I believe La Tene areas in N. France and Belgium are dated older to anywhere else in France(but of course oldest are in La Tene/Switzerland) along the Rhine, maybe that supports Alpine Celts moving north first before they spread to southern France/Iberia.


Yes, well, Occam's razor and all that. It could well be the case, certainly for places like Scotland or Ireland where any non-NW European input seems a bit small to affect a major language/cultural change directly.
The Celtic speakers that crossed the English straight definitely weren't S. French like, they undoubtably picked up admixture from the Rhine area/NW France area, a region which I do think was N. French-like, if not even more northern similar to England/Scotland MBA/LBA, so while English/Irish may show low amounts of S. French-like admixture(don't forget the case of elite language conquest in Hungary/Finland btw), that wasn't the entire % of the population movement by people who spoke the language.


You must agree that it's peculiar that population as far south as Latium had as much Steppes people on the other side of the Alps, you can understand the skepticism.
The Celts were pretty civilized and urbanized for their time, I would be more surprised if they were overwhelmingly Bell Beaker descended rather than heavily neolithic farmer. The Celtic language is literally closer linguistically to Italic than it is to Germanic. Keep in mind back then Latium or anywhere in Italy should really be considered the same thing as northern Italy, Slovenia, etc geographically, the Mediterranean sea used to be a barrier between gene flow, not a conduit. It's not really that far fetched for populations on both sides of a mountain range(albeit big) to be pretty similar(Celts were more northern anyway, again I'm not arguing for the Celt average to be around N. Iberians lol, the distance between Iberians and S. French is pretty big).

There's also one important point I forgot earlier, populations like Czechs, Slovaks, southern Poles show this southern shifted Celt signal. Are we really going to say Czechs and Poles have Italic and Roman admixture now?

[Raizen]

btw, have you guys read the newest paper on celtic linguistics? they propose Celtic from France (https://indo-european.eu/2020/04/european-hydrotoponymy-vii-celtic-from-the-west-or-the-east/). that brings up new possibilities of models for our discussion.

[SharpFork]

btw, have you guys read the newest paper on celtic linguistics? they propose Celtic from France (https://indo-european.eu/2020/04/european-hydrotoponymy-vii-celtic-from-the-west-or-the-east/). that brings up new possibilities of models for our discussion.

Please not that site, the guy that believes CWC was Uralic speaking...

I guess at least he allows us to jump over the paywall.

[Raizen]

Please not that site, the guy that believes CWC was Uralic speaking...
i'm referring to the paper he posted, not the opinion of him about it

[Raizen]

it is weird how carlos quiles talks about 'proto-galaico-lusitanians', when gallaecians were clearly celtic unlike lusitanians. he have some very weird theories.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

XenophobicPrussian model.


[1] "distance%=2.5792"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,70
Italic,15.2
ImperialRoman,8.4
Mozabite,5.6
Iberia_Central_BA,0.8


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"

Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44 @4.671708
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20 @4.799128
Celtic:SX18_scaled @4.955601
Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851 @5.063870
Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d @5.474916
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50 @5.537793
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111 @5.633017
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016 @6.488556

[SharpFork]

I believe La Tene areas in N. France and Belgium are dated older to anywhere else in France(but of course oldest are in La Tene/Switzerland) along the Rhine, maybe that supports Alpine Celts moving north first before they spread to southern France/Iberia.
La Tene is the later culture, the spread of Hallstatt would be the one to indicate the spread of Celts into France at least, La Tene is just ramping it up and making it more violent and organized.



It's not really that far fetched for populations on both sides of a mountain range(albeit big) to be pretty similar(Celts were more northern anyway, again I'm not arguing for the Celt average to be around N. Iberians lol, the distance between Iberians and S. French is pretty big).
Do you think Celts would be 35% or what % Steppe? Maybe we are talking about technicalities, although I guess that's the entire point of the discussion.


There's also one important point I forgot earlier, populations like Czechs, Slovaks, southern Poles show this southern shifted Celt signal. Are we really going to say Czechs and Poles have Italic and Roman admixture now?
Would this southern shift be impossible to achieve if Celts were 40% Steppe as opposed to 30%?

[SharpFork]

it is weird how carlos quiles talks about 'proto-galaico-lusitanians', when gallaecians were clearly celtic unlike lusitanians. he have some very weird theories.
Some parts of Galicia are shown as semi-Lusitanian in some maps, it's not his theory but I can't testify its validity.

[Raizen]

Some parts of Galicia are shown as semi-Lusitanian in some maps, it's not his theory but I can't testify its validity.

but do you think lusitanian and gallaecian are descended from the same iron age proto-language? i think lusitanian is a bell beaker remnant, and gallaecian rather urnfield celtic.

[SharpFork]

but do you think lusitanian and gallaecian are descended from the same iron age proto-language? i think lusitanian is a bell beaker remnant, and gallaecian rather urnfield celtic.
The ethnonym Gallaecian makes it kinda obvious what they were but whether or not there were Lusitinians in the territory of Galicia is another quesiton, the 2 languages would have been related anyway so it's hard to tell.

Edit: Not sure about Bell Beaker remnant, wouldnt it have diverged significantly by the late iron age? Many even debate if it was Celtic, to me it seems unlikely for there to be such controversy if it was so old.

[Raizen]

The ethnonym Gallaecian makes it kinda obvious what they were but whether or not there were Lusitinians in the territory of Galicia is another quesiton, the 2 languages would have been related anyway so it's hard to tell.

Edit: Not sure about Bell Beaker remnant, wouldnt it have diverged significantly by the late iron age? Many even debate if it was Celtic, to me it seems unlikely for there to be such controversy if it was so old.
it is strange because it doesn't share many common celtic innovations and at the same time share some innovations with italic, to the point that some posited that it is a italic language. btw, it is interesting how hispano-celtic was the first to split from nuclear celtic, it explains why celtiberians got such a heavy dose of steppe ancestry (that would support xenophobicprussian proposition that the earliest celts were more northern)

[SharpFork]

it is strange because it doesn't share many common celtic innovations and at the same time share some innovations with italic, to the point that some posited that it is a italic language. btw, it is interesting how hispano-celtic was the first to split from nuclear celtic, it explains why celtiberians got such a heavy dose of steppe ancestry (that would support xenophobicprussian proposition that the earliest celts were more northern)
Yeah I know about the Italic connection, I don't believe there is any easy signal for the arrival of Lusitanians in the archeological patterns, my best bet is it would have come as some point between after Bell Beakers and before the Bronze Age collapse.

[XenophobicPrussian]

XenophobicPrussian model.


[1] "distance%=2.5792"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,70
Italic,15.2
ImperialRoman,8.4
Mozabite,5.6
Iberia_Central_BA,0.8


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"

Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44 @4.671708
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20 @4.799128
Celtic:SX18_scaled @4.955601
Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851 @5.063870
Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d @5.474916
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50 @5.537793
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111 @5.633017
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016 @6.488556
lol that's fucking weird, did you add Dist Col or something? I ran mine with the default no Dist Col.

Portuguese average for comparison:


Target: Portuguese
Distance: 0.9206% / 0.00920594
25.6 Celtic
23.2 Iberia_Central_BA
16.2 ImperialRoman
15.8 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
11.0 Mozabite
8.2 Italic


If that was with no Dist Col, try using Southwest_BA? I'm curious.


Iberia_Southwest_BA,0.1200835,0.1497905,0.050534,-0.0134045,0.064166,-0.0133865,-0.0019975,0.0047305,0.046018,0.062416,-0.003735,0.012214,-0.022894,-0.013212,0.0059715,-0.0007955,-0.0037815,-0.003864,0.001571,0.003064,0.0146615,0.0007415,-0.00758,-0.0265095,0.002215

[Raizen]

Yeah I know about the Italic connection, I don't believe there is any easy signal for the arrival of Lusitanians in the archeological patterns, my best bet is it would have come as some point between after Bell Beakers and before the Bronze Age collapse.
they were culturally very similar to their celtic neighbours (urnfield-like culture), but you could explain this with contact/cultural exchange (and mixing of course). lets see if they turn out to be any different from their neighbours. western iberia could very well have gotten british-like admixture from the atlantic bronze age complex

[SharpFork]

they were culturally very similar to their celtic neighbours (urnfield-like culture), but you could explain this with contact/cultural exchange (and mixing of course). lets see if they turn out to be any different from their neighbours. western iberia could very well have gotten british-like admixture from the atlantic bronze age complex
I'm always curious if we will ever find enough inscriptions to shed the light on those languages, so many languages in the Balkans, Iberia and Italy are unknown and I wonder if France and Germany were also home to those IE dead branches(outside weak theories such as the Nordwest block)

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

lol that's fucking weird, did you add Dist Col or something? I ran mine with the default no Dist Col.

Portuguese average for comparison:



If that was with no Dist Col, try using Southwest_BA? I'm curious.

I ran with nMont R standard command. Adding a penalty of 0 these are my results:


[1] "distance%=1.7354"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,62.6
ImperialRoman,13.2
Mozabite,12.4
Italic,8.6
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker,1.8
Iberia_Central_BA,1.4



Still off from your Portuguese average.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

With Soutwhest BA:

Standard:


[1] "distance%=2.6955"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,64.8
Italic,12
Iberia_Southwest_BA,10
ImperialRoman,7.8
Mozabite,4.4
Germanic,1

Pen=0


[1] "distance%=1.6727"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,55.2
ImperialRoman,14.8
Mozabite,11.6
Iberia_Southwest_BA,11.2
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker,6.6
Italic,0.6

[XenophobicPrussian]

La Tene is the later culture, the spread of Hallstatt would be the one to indicate the spread of Celts into France at least, La Tene is just ramping it up and making it more violent and organized.



Do you think Celts would be 35% or what % Steppe? Maybe we are talking about technicalities, although I guess that's the entire point of the discussion.


Would this southern shift be impossible to achieve if Celts were 40% Steppe as opposed to 30%?
I don't really track ancient populations by ancestral components, rather do it by where they plot on modern PCA plots, so I would just go based on what French Occitans have and go with 36.8% steppe/Yamnaya. Remember WHG will also affect southern or northern shift, it isn't all steppe, so it's tough to say. N. French and the like seem to be 45% steppe so I would say Czechs/Slovaks would probably be scoring too much Celt if Celts were 45% steppe.

I wouldn't call this a technicality, I'd say whether or not the majority of the southern shift in certain ethnicities comes from Romans or something local/neolithic farmers has a lot of implications. May've you'll have literally no idea what I'm talking about lol, but it's kind of like, at the end of the day they're the same basal ancestries if you go far back enough, but there's a reason someone like Davidski is heavily rooting for Yamnaya to be a mix of EHG+CHG rather than EHG+Fertile Crescent farmer/Iran_N.

[XenophobicPrussian]

With Soutwhest BA:

Standard:


[1] "distance%=2.6955"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,64.8
Italic,12
Iberia_Southwest_BA,10
ImperialRoman,7.8
Mozabite,4.4
Germanic,1

Pen=0


[1] "distance%=1.6727"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,55.2
ImperialRoman,14.8
Mozabite,11.6
Iberia_Southwest_BA,11.2
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker,6.6
Italic,0.6
Did you try with vahaduo? https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

Now I'm curious if vahaduo gives different results from R.

[Luso]

With Soutwhest BA:

Standard:


[1] "distance%=2.6955"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,64.8
Italic,12
Iberia_Southwest_BA,10
ImperialRoman,7.8
Mozabite,4.4
Germanic,1

Pen=0


[1] "distance%=1.6727"

Viriato_scaled

Celtic,55.2
ImperialRoman,14.8
Mozabite,11.6
Iberia_Southwest_BA,11.2
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker,6.6
Italic,0.6

Do you need G25 to do this?

[J. Ketch]

Slightly altered XP's model, some of the most pure individuals for Germanic and added England MBA for pre-Celtic Briton



ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,0.1069937,0.14860 57,-0.0248897,-0.0551253,0.0057443,-0.016083,-0.0018017,-0.003769,0.0008863,0.0154293,0.007091,0.0059443,-0.008325,0.000642,-0.0068313,-0.0010607,0.008388,-0.001098,0.004483,0.0007087,-0.001539,0.002267,0.0031223,0.0018077,0.0015967
Celtic:SX18_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.048271,-0.00646,0.051394,-0.007251,0.0047,-0.000692,0.016362,0.035354,0.002598,0.016485,-0.016055,-0.006055,0.001629,0.000663,0.006128,0.00266,0.0038 97,-0.006628,0.006364,0.006183,-0.011709,-0.006145,0.000958
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0. 008721,0.04924,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
Celtic: DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50,0.120652,0.153345,0.043746,-0.002584,0.052933,-0.003347,-0.00329,-0.002077,0.022293,0.031162,-0.005846,0.008692,-0.022299,-0.010459,-0.002172,0.014585,0.021253,0.004307,0.001257,-0.005753,0.00262,0.000124,0.002835,-0.005181,-0.010418
Celtic: DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
Celtic: DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57,0.129758,0.142174,0.0 50911,0.039406,0.044316,0.007251,-0.004935,0.008538,0.028429,0.024237,0.007957,0.007 194,-0.008622,-0.012248,-0.000407,0.004906,-0.000652,0.001014,-0.003017,0.000375,0.012852,0.009645,-0.009983,0.005784,-0.004071
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111,0.124067,0.15131 4,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002 308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0 .012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.0139 08,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479
Celtic:Constance_MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.05543 7,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.0177 94,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Celtic:Constance_MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322, 0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA,0.1297585,0.133542,0.0630732,0 .0527298,0.0351605,0.0193132,0.0061102,0.0030575,0 .001892,-0.0027338,-0.0060082,0.0064818,-0.0180252,-0.0164115,0.024226,0.0058672,-0.0143422,0.0036108,0.0032995,0.0005313,0.0056462, 0.0044822,-0.0003393,0.0042172,0.0041315
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:England_MBA,0.1270132,0.1290916,0.0630678,0 .059755,0.0341783,0.019916,0.0014929,0.0049274,0.0 045958,-0.0013935,-0.0047379,0.0039671,-0.0111495,-0.0156566,0.0246771,0.0091564,-0.0059516,0.0030703,0.0009834,0.0039871,0.0046975, 0.0047133,-0.0006381,0.0058335,-0.0012045
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016,0.127482,0.1472 52,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851,0.133173,0.1563 92,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Germanic:England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.0 63356,0.071383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307, 0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003 957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
Germanic:ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian:VDP-A-5,0.126344,0.123895,0.076555,0.062016,0.03139,0.01 8128,0.007755,0.007615,0.009204,-0.007472,0.001624,0.007493,-0.009514,-0.018992,0.025651,0.02254,0.01356,0.004814,0.00037 7,0.002876,0.004742,0.005935,0.002095,0.012652,-0.00467
Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865 ,0.067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.0028 63,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653 ,0.04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003 477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594
Iberia_Central_BA,0.1239044,0.1505886,0.059639,0.0 003691,0.0686281,-0.0074901,-0.0052371,-0.0001319,0.0395609,0.0550354,-0.0029926,0.01291,-0.0243167,-0.019621,0.0066116,0.0103233,0.0156089,-0.0004163,-0.0021549,0.0007146,0.0115154,-0.0001766,-0.0088561,-0.020261,0.0028397




Target: Creoda_scaled
Distance: 1.7769% / 0.01776939
61.2 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
20.6 Germanic
18.2 Celtic

Target: CreodaMum_scaled
Distance: 1.1707% / 0.01170711
54.4 Germanic
23.6 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
14.0 Celtic
4.0 ImperialRoman
4.0 Italic

Target: CreodaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.4566% / 0.02456600
55.6 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
26.8 Germanic
17.6 Celtic

Target: English
Distance: 1.0643% / 0.01064280
38.8 Germanic
33.4 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
23.8 Celtic
3.2 ImperialRoman
0.8 Italic

Target: English_Cornwall
Distance: 1.2100% / 0.01209999
33.8 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
33.8 Germanic
30.0 Celtic
1.4 ImperialRoman
1.0 Mozabite

Target: Scottish
Distance: 1.0600% / 0.01059965
52.0 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
29.2 Germanic
16.2 Celtic
2.6 ImperialRoman

Target: Welsh
Distance: 0.8879% / 0.00887907
36.4 Germanic
34.2 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
25.2 Celtic
4.2 ImperialRoman

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.2474% / 0.01247421
61.2 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
25.2 Germanic
11.4 Celtic
2.0 ImperialRoman
0.2 Mozabite

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Did you try with vahaduo? https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

Now I'm curious if vahaduo gives different results from R.

No penalty:


Target: Viriato_scaled
Distance: 1.6727% / 0.01672658
55.2 Celtic
14.8 ImperialRoman
11.6 Mozabite
11.2 Iberia_Southwest_BA
6.6 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
0.6 Italic

ADD DIST COL 0.25x:


Target: Viriato_scaled
Distance: 1.7306% / 0.01730648 | ADC: 0.25x
67.4 Celtic
14.0 ImperialRoman
10.4 Mozabite
7.4 Iberia_Southwest_BA
0.8 Italic


Distance to: Viriato_scaled
0.04671708 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.04799128 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.04955601 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.05063870 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.05474916 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.05537793 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.05633017 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.06488556 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.06506160 Iberia_Southwest_BA
0.06634102 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.06669808 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.06903296 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.07125323 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.07149488 Iberia_Central_BA
0.08529823 Germanic:DEU_MA
0.08940813 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.09890053 ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.20945928 Mozabite

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Do you need G25 to do this?

Yes, you do.

[XenophobicPrussian]

No penalty:


Target: Viriato_scaled
Distance: 1.6727% / 0.01672658
55.2 Celtic
14.8 ImperialRoman
11.6 Mozabite
11.2 Iberia_Southwest_BA
6.6 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
0.6 Italic

ADD DIST COL 0.25x:


Target: Viriato_scaled
Distance: 1.7306% / 0.01730648 | ADC: 0.25x
67.4 Celtic
14.0 ImperialRoman
10.4 Mozabite
7.4 Iberia_Southwest_BA
0.8 Italic


Distance to: Viriato_scaled
0.04671708 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.04799128 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.04955601 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.05063870 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.05474916 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.05537793 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.05633017 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.06488556 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.06506160 Iberia_Southwest_BA
0.06634102 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.06669808 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.06903296 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.07125323 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.07149488 Iberia_Central_BA
0.08529823 Germanic:DEU_MA
0.08940813 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.09890053 ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.20945928 Mozabite
Interesting, maybe you're just a particularly Celtic individual lol.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Interesting, maybe you're just a particularly Celtic individual lol.

I don't think so, in another forum (AG) Portuguese members from different regions from north to south always score substantially more Hallstatt Celt or Celtiberian than the Portuguese average. Why that is I don't know, either the Portuguese average is faulty or is comprised of few samples or by coincidence we all pull more towards the Celtic samples.

[SharpFork]

I wouldn't call this a technicality, I'd say whether or not the majority of the southern shift in certain ethnicities comes from Romans or something local/neolithic farmers has a lot of implications. May've you'll have literally no idea what I'm talking about lol, but it's kind of like, at the end of the day they're the same basal ancestries if you go far back enough, but there's a reason someone like Davidski is heavily rooting for Yamnaya to be a mix of EHG+CHG rather than EHG+Fertile Crescent farmer/Iran_N.
No I get what you are talking about, the "technicality" part is more referring to the fact we went from discussing whether they were 50 or 30% Steppe to discussing differences 4 times smaller.

Ultimately though if we can explain some strange patterns by using Bell Beakerized Celts we could also explain Roman impact by bringing up auxilliaries and an array of possible admixture events, but apparently geneticists are still figuring out whether any particular backyard in central Europe experienced what literally happened everywhere else in the Copper and Bronze age.

[Grace O'Malley]

XenophobicPrussian model.

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 2.2694% / 0.02269391
79.2 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
12.8 Germanic
8.0 Celtic

Distance to: Grace_scaled
0.02361793 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.03048875 Germanic:DEU_MA
0.05878041 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.05908444 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.06033807 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.06551612 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.07170281 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.07362647 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.07658198 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.08793736 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.09235673 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.09566019 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.10256801 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.10982562 Iberia_Central_BA
0.11827342 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.15977998 mperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.27796809 Mozabite

Creoda's model.

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.6909% / 0.01690861
53.2 Germanic
32.6 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
12.8 Celtic
1.4 ImperialRoman

Distance to: Grace_scaled
0.02236680 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:England_MBA
0.02361793 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.03199100 Germanic:England_Saxon:I0773
0.04154123 Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_106
0.04231330 Germanic:ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian:VDP-A-5
0.04602010 Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_249
0.05878041 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.05908444 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.06033807 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.06551612 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.07170281 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.07362647 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.07658198 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.08793736 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.09235673 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.09566019 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.10256801 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.10982562 Iberia_Central_BA
0.11827342 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.15977998 ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.27796809 Mozabite

[Akilles]

No, they weren't. They just cluster like that due to the similar % of Steppe component, Hunter Gatherer, Neolithic etc. They must of also absorbed other populations wherever they migrated , changing their genetic composition. Celts were more of a linguistic group. Same as Indo-Europeans are today.

[Damião de Góis]

XenophobicPrussian's (Creoda's modification doesn't change my results):

Target: Damião_de_Góis
Distance: 1.8760% / 0.01875951
59.2 Celtic
16.2 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
13.2 Mozabite
11.4 ImperialRoman



Distance to: Damião_de_Góis
0.04788966 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.04893052 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.04905548 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.05401210 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.05446129 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.05602312 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.05662566 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.06252244 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.06281096 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.06300878 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.06357892 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.07177309 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.07382902 Iberia_Central_BA
0.07777121 Germanic:DEU_MA
0.08183130 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.10188815 ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.21091296 Mozabite

Also far from the portuguese average. I think the problem is that Iberia_Central_BA is a poor match for us.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

XenophobicPrussian's (Creoda's modification doesn't change my results):

Also far from the portuguese average. I think the problem is that Iberia_Central_BA is a poor match for us.

I do not think that this model is faulty. The reason why we have strong affinity with the Celtic samples has to do with them being closer to modern Southern Frenchmen, Iberians and Northern Italians:


Distance to: Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.03230589 Spanish_Soria
0.03981424 French_Auvergne
0.03988847 French_Occitanie
0.04058295 French_South
0.04108385 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04109183 Spanish_Castello
0.04238192 Spanish_Girona
0.04344088 Spanish_Penedes
0.04357718 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04367458 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04370804 Swiss_French
0.04373152 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04483558 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04491178 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04500153 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04501239 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04516028 Spanish_Lleida
0.04530823 French_Paris
0.04594034 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04600792 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04695622 Spanish_Baleares
0.04780595 Basque_Spanish
0.04839098 French_Provence
0.04846419 Spanish_Valencia
0.04852166 French_Pas-de-Calais

Distance to: Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.03464891 French_Occitanie
0.03505670 French_Auvergne
0.03540269 Spanish_Soria
0.03686544 Swiss_French
0.03715282 French_Paris
0.03914016 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03991851 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04038952 French_Nord
0.04044978 Swiss_German
0.04088626 Spanish_Penedes
0.04124982 Spanish_Girona
0.04142974 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04170260 French_Alsace
0.04173687 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04206262 Belgian
0.04243459 French_South
0.04250244 French_Provence
0.04297874 Spanish_Castello
0.04365573 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04396880 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04420092 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04438978 Spanish_Lleida
0.04467872 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04474864 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04633059 Spanish_Baleares

Distance to: Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.02962418 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03088535 French_Occitanie
0.03111555 French_Auvergne
0.03197608 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.03291915 Basque_French
0.03300421 French_South
0.03484421 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03543462 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03629089 Spanish_Lleida
0.03654432 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03657065 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03682866 Spanish_Aragon
0.03689219 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03696268 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03747817 Spanish_Penedes
0.03768521 Spanish_Valencia
0.03780898 Swiss_German
0.03781292 Spanish_Cataluna
0.03788158 Spanish_Girona
0.03884917 Swiss_French
0.03936236 Spanish_Navarra
0.04042572 French_Paris
0.04063183 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04078563 French_Alsace
0.04080754 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.03291365 French_Occitanie
0.03631749 Basque_French
0.03648036 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.03684493 French_Auvergne
0.03780029 French_Nord
0.03826638 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03843157 French_Paris
0.03912666 French_South
0.03939012 Swiss_German
0.03963959 French_Alsace
0.04031288 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04081481 Belgian
0.04312752 French_Brittany
0.04444562 Spanish_Lleida
0.04471861 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04475237 English_Cornwall
0.04533750 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04540566 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04554543 Spanish_Penedes
0.04561174 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04605195 Swiss_French
0.04631059 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04642746 Basque_Spanish
0.04657961 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04660060 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona

Distance to: Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.03601594 French_Occitanie
0.03780723 French_Paris
0.03848481 Swiss_German
0.03849164 French_Nord
0.03864224 French_Auvergne
0.03905844 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04017684 Belgian
0.04079787 French_Alsace
0.04174337 French_Brittany
0.04355320 Swiss_French
0.04542585 German
0.04633375 Welsh
0.04636874 Afrikaner
0.04679442 English_Cornwall
0.04693512 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04709144 French_South
0.04738209 Spanish_Penedes
0.04749294 Spanish_Girona
0.04750552 Spanish_Lleida
0.04763918 English
0.04765734 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04777402 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04805704 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04868233 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04900787 Spanish_Cantabria

Distance to: Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.03577707 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03595198 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03595973 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03660923 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03672049 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03673364 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03684493 Spanish_Baleares
0.03710794 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03721960 Spanish_Girona
0.03737691 Spanish_Lleida
0.03746860 Spanish_Menorca
0.03868265 French_Auvergne
0.03917864 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03920443 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03938246 Spanish_Penedes
0.03944746 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03995945 Spanish_Castello
0.03997771 Italian_Veneto
0.04049082 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04058347 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04072658 Swiss_French
0.04075304 French_Provence
0.04110895 French_Occitanie
0.04117458 Spanish_Valencia
0.04124903 Spanish_Aragon

Distance to: Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.02875729 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03119375 Spanish_Baleares
0.03139636 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03212900 Spanish_Castello
0.03227504 Spanish_Soria
0.03388466 Spanish_Girona
0.03470392 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03474832 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03557213 Spanish_Penedes
0.03573592 Spanish_Lleida
0.03612450 Spanish_Cataluna
0.03621616 Spanish_Menorca
0.03622804 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03654754 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03768222 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03801579 Spanish_Murcia
0.03810457 Spanish_Alacant
0.03949170 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03956545 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03959215 Spanish_Valencia
0.03987004 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04014169 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04021442 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04046931 Swiss_French
0.04054675 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Distance to: Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.02636200 French_Auvergne
0.02759794 French_Occitanie
0.02877852 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02924560 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02933076 Spanish_Cataluna
0.02972110 Spanish_Penedes
0.02973609 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02974155 Spanish_Girona
0.03094206 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03126902 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03189471 Spanish_Lleida
0.03216539 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03257152 Swiss_French
0.03272564 Spanish_Baleares
0.03314034 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03326641 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03342980 French_South
0.03392371 Spanish_Castello
0.03414049 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03417752 Spanish_Valencia
0.03424700 French_Provence
0.03535014 Spanish_Aragon
0.03552567 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03609045 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03629228 Swiss_German

Distance to: Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.03649465 Swiss_French
0.03675682 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03694349 French_Paris
0.03842276 French_Occitanie
0.03857627 Belgian
0.03883154 French_Auvergne
0.03887064 French_Nord
0.03929073 Swiss_German
0.04009858 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04090527 French_Alsace
0.04185605 Spanish_Soria
0.04295082 French_Provence
0.04425606 French_Brittany
0.04459329 Spanish_Penedes
0.04579596 Spanish_Girona
0.04680678 Afrikaner
0.04694587 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04815882 Welsh
0.04824686 German
0.04829523 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04832779 Spanish_Castello
0.04836156 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04854016 Spanish_Lleida
0.04902831 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04933473 Spanish_Cataluna

Distance to: Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.02768718 Spanish_Lleida
0.02779682 Spanish_Castello
0.02786045 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02803243 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02816757 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02863416 Spanish_Pirineu
0.02958359 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03012148 Spanish_Menorca
0.03050536 Spanish_Girona
0.03059376 Spanish_Valencia
0.03059874 Spanish_Baleares
0.03060928 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03071157 Spanish_Cataluna
0.03074607 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03081546 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03102801 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03120009 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03174765 Spanish_Aragon
0.03179680 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03198264 Spanish_Penedes
0.03318008 Spanish_Navarra
0.03355992 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03402946 Spanish_Alacant
0.03426509 Italian_Bergamo
0.03484888 French_South

The Iberian Central BA samples are closer to modern Sardinians and Basques, with whom Western Iberians do not share as much affinity.

[PT Tagus]

Target: PT_Tagus_scaled
Distance: 1.5948% / 0.01594825
68.2 Celtic
17.4 Mozabite
14.4 ImperialRoman



Distance to: PT_Tagus_scaled
0.05577007 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.05921142 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.06032000 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.06051921 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.06224875 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.06415807 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.06508631 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.07199948 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.07371635 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.07375606 Iberia_Southwest_BA
0.07478856 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.07540233 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.07564761 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.07882293 Iberia_Central_BA
0.09077524 Germanic:DEU_MA
0.09507416 ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.09739254 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.19589071 Mozabite

[Pedro Ruben]

Target: Pedro_scaled
Distance: 1.3048% / 0.01304787
58.6 Celtic
19.6 Mozabite
11.0 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker
10.8 ImperialRoman

Distance to: Pedro_scaled
0.05877906 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.06023748 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.06078537 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.06182685 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.06442609 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.06478785 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.06719431 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.07174543 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.07304131 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.07441181 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.07509477 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.07901192 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.08217015 Iberia_Central_BA
0.08989363 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.09265209 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:England_MBA
0.09849515 Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_249
0.10283190 ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.10684926 Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_106
0.10785546 Germanic:ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian:VDP-A-5
0.11445099 Germanic:England_Saxon:I0773
0.19596904 Mozabite

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Creoda's model:


Target: Viriato_scaled
Distance: 1.7323% / 0.01732257
60.0 Celtic
13.0 ImperialRoman
12.4 Mozabite
10.0 Italic
2.8 Germanic
1.8 Iberia_Central_BA


Also reposting his model without the multiple spaces because it wasn't working:


ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,0.1069937,0.14860 57,-0.0248897,-0.0551253,0.0057443,-0.016083,-0.0018017,-0.003769,0.0008863,0.0154293,0.007091,0.0059443,-0.008325,0.000642,-0.0068313,-0.0010607,0.008388,-0.001098,0.004483,0.0007087,-0.001539,0.002267,0.0031223,0.0018077,0.0015967
Celtic:SX18_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.048271,-0.00646,0.051394,-0.007251,0.0047,-0.000692,0.016362,0.035354,0.002598,0.016485,-0.016055,-0.006055,0.001629,0.000663,0.006128,0.00266,0.0038 97,-0.006628,0.006364,0.006183,-0.011709,-0.006145,0.000958
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.0 5242,0.026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154, 0.003477,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.05 6568,0.008721,0.04924,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50,0.120652,0.153345,0.04 3746,-0.002584,0.052933,-0.003347,-0.00329,-0.002077,0.022293,0.031162,-0.005846,0.008692,-0.022299,-0.010459,-0.002172,0.014585,0.021253,0.004307,0.001257,-0.005753,0.00262,0.000124,0.002835,-0.005181,-0.010418
Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.1563 92,0.047894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57,0.129758,0.142 174,0.050911,0.039406,0.044316,0.007251,-0.004935,0.008538,0.028429,0.024237,0.007957,0.007 194,-0.008622,-0.012248,-0.000407,0.004906,-0.000652,0.001014,-0.003017,0.000375,0.012852,0.009645,-0.009983,0.005784,-0.004071
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111,0.124067,0.15131 4,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.001175,0.002 308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20,0.129758,0.147252,0.055814,0 .012274,0.055087,0.009203,0.001175,0.001846,0.0139 08,0.0277,-0.003897,0.012589,-0.019623,-0.007707,0.005293,-0.008884,-0.017341,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.008504,-0.003494,0.004699,-0.002711,-0.006266,-0.00479
Celtic:Constance_MX254_2,0.130897,0.136081,0.05543 7,0.024871,0.041854,0.00251,0.0047,0.006231,0.0177 94,0.024784,-0.004384,0.007493,-0.016501,-0.014313,0.003122,0.018165,0.014473,0.003547,-0.002388,5e-04,-0.004243,0.011129,0.001479,-0.010483,0.001317
Celtic:Constance_MX283,0.126344,0.137096,0.057322, 0.023579,0.050779,-0.003068,0.001175,0.003,0.020043,0.035172,-0.005521,0.009591,-0.014866,-0.009083,-0.000814,0.022408,0.016689,0.000127,0.004022,-0.002376,-0.001497,0.00643,-0.00456,-0.010242,0.001437
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA,0.1297585,0.133542,0.0630732,0 .0527298,0.0351605,0.0193132,0.0061102,0.0030575,0 .001892,-0.0027338,-0.0060082,0.0064818,-0.0180252,-0.0164115,0.024226,0.0058672,-0.0143422,0.0036108,0.0032995,0.0005313,0.0056462, 0.0044822,-0.0003393,0.0042172,0.0041315
Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:England_MBA,0.1270132,0.1290916,0.0630678,0 .059755,0.0341783,0.019916,0.0014929,0.0049274,0.0 045958,-0.0013935,-0.0047379,0.0039671,-0.0111495,-0.0156566,0.0246771,0.0091564,-0.0059516,0.0030703,0.0009834,0.0039871,0.0046975, 0.0047133,-0.0006381,0.0058335,-0.0012045
Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016,0.127482,0.1472 52,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851,0.133173,0.1563 92,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Germanic:England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.0 63356,0.071383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307, 0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003 957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
Germanic:ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian:VDP-A-5,0.126344,0.123895,0.076555,0.062016,0.03139,0.01 8128,0.007755,0.007615,0.009204,-0.007472,0.001624,0.007493,-0.009514,-0.018992,0.025651,0.02254,0.01356,0.004814,0.00037 7,0.002876,0.004742,0.005935,0.002095,0.012652,-0.00467
Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865 ,0.067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.0028 63,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653 ,0.04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.003 477,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594
Iberia_Central_BA,0.1239044,0.1505886,0.059639,0.0 003691,0.0686281,-0.0074901,-0.0052371,-0.0001319,0.0395609,0.0550354,-0.0029926,0.01291,-0.0243167,-0.019621,0.0066116,0.0103233,0.0156089,-0.0004163,-0.0021549,0.0007146,0.0115154,-0.0001766,-0.0088561,-0.020261,0.0028397

[Raizen]

portuguese invasion hehe

[Damião de Góis]

portuguese invasion hehe

Looks that way, but we just like G25.

[Defcon2]

Distance: 2.5622% / 0.02562178
63.4 Celtic
18.4 Italic
15.6 Mozabite
2.6 ImperialRoman


Distance to: Juan_scaled
0.05301490 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.05445253 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.05465897 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.05560377 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.05824014 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.05880485 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.06359312 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.06428887 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.06806583 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.07043060 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.07166493 Iberia_Central_BA
0.07204948 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.07635240 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.09601267 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.09941724 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:England_MBA
0.10566573 ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.10592341 Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_249
0.11418076 Germanic:DEU_MA:AED_106
0.11587385 Germanic:ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian:VDP-A-5
0.11683241 Germanic:England_Saxon:I0773
0.20764523 Mozabite

[PT Tagus]

Target: PT_Tagus_scaled
Distance: 1.5948% / 0.01594825
68.2 Celtic
17.4 Mozabite
14.4 ImperialRoman



Distance to: PT_Tagus_scaled
0.05577007 Celtic:SX18_scaled
0.05921142 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
0.06032000 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50
0.06051921 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
0.06224875 Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.06415807 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
0.06508631 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111
0.07199948 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
0.07371635 Celtic:DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3_WEZ57
0.07375606 Iberia_Southwest_BA
0.07478856 Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.07540233 Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.07564761 Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_119
0.07882293 Iberia_Central_BA
0.09077524 Germanic:DEU_MA
0.09507416 ImperialRoman:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.09739254 Pre-Celtic-Briton/Beaker:Scotland_LBA
0.19589071 Mozabite

I've also tried run samples on R. Here are the results (with penalty):

[1] "distance%=3.209"

PT_Tagus_scaled

Celtic,69.6
ImperialRoman,16
Iberia_Southwest_BA,7
Mozabite,5.2
Germanic,2.2



[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Celtic:SX18_scaled Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_44
5.577007 5.921142
Celtic:DEU_Lech_EBA_POST_50 Celtic:DEU_Lech_MBA_OTTM_151ind2_d
6.032000 6.051921
Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_RMPR851
6.224875 6.415807
Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
6.508631 7.199948

[gixajo]

Which are Xenophobic Russian sources?

[Trouble]

Not necessarily, their high steppe brings them closer to northern Euros who have the most of it. But it doesnt really imply common descent.

[SharpFork]

Which are Xenophobic Russian sources?

What do you mean? All his stuff should come from Davidsky's G25 stuff.

[Peterski]

Guys, there are Iron Age French samples! I'm downloading. So many samples!

[Grace O'Malley]

Guys, there are Iron Age French samples! I'm downloading. So many samples!


Can't wait to see what they are like. Thank you.

[SharpFork]

If we have eastern samples from around the Alsace region they can be a good indicator of early celts, those were core Hallstatt regions.

[Grace O'Malley]

I was looking at those Swiss Celtic samples and they are closest to Spaniards which would explain why Iberians get such a high dose of them.

Distance to: Celtic:Constance_MX283
0.03230589 Spanish_Soria
0.03981424 French_Auvergne
0.03988847 French_Occitanie
0.04058295 French_South
0.04108385 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04109183 Spanish_Castello
0.04238192 Spanish_Girona
0.04344088 Spanish_Penedes
0.04357718 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04367458 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04370804 Swiss_French
0.04373152 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04483558 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04491178 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04500153 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04501239 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04516028 Spanish_Lleida
0.04530823 French_Paris
0.04594034 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04600792 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04695622 Spanish_Baleares
0.04780595 Basque_Spanish
0.04839098 French_Provence
0.04846419 Spanish_Valencia
0.04852166 French_Pas-de-Calais

Distance to: Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
0.03464891 French_Occitanie
0.03505670 French_Auvergne
0.03540269 Spanish_Soria
0.03686544 Swiss_French
0.03715282 French_Paris
0.03914016 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03991851 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04038952 French_Nord
0.04044978 Swiss_German
0.04088626 Spanish_Penedes
0.04124982 Spanish_Girona
0.04142974 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04170260 French_Alsace
0.04173687 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04206262 Belgian
0.04243459 French_South
0.04250244 French_Provence
0.04297874 Spanish_Castello
0.04365573 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04396880 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04420092 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04438978 Spanish_Lleida
0.04467872 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04474864 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04633059 Spanish_Baleares

Distance to: Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
0.02962418 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03088535 French_Occitanie
0.03111555 French_Auvergne
0.03197608 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.03291915 Basque_French
0.03300421 French_South
0.03484421 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03543462 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03629089 Spanish_Lleida
0.03654432 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03657065 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03682866 Spanish_Aragon
0.03689219 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03696268 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03747817 Spanish_Penedes
0.03768521 Spanish_Valencia
0.03780898 Swiss_German
0.03781292 Spanish_Cataluna
0.03788158 Spanish_Girona
0.03884917 Swiss_French
0.03936236 Spanish_Navarra
0.04042572 French_Paris
0.04063183 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04078563 French_Alsace
0.04080754 Spanish_Menorca

Target: Celtic:Constance_MX283
Distance: 2.2354% / 0.02235397
61.4 Spanish_Soria
14.4 Latvian
12.8 Sardinian
5.4 Cossack_Kuban
5.0 Basque_Spanish
1.0 Kosipe

Target: Celtic:Constance_MX254_2
Distance: 2.1602% / 0.02160158
58.0 Spanish_Soria
13.0 Slovakian
7.0 Basque_Spanish
6.0 Lithuanian_SZ
5.8 Spanish_La_Rioja
3.4 Cossack_Ukrainian
2.8 Norwegian
2.0 Ket
2.0 Sardinian

Target: Celtic:St_Gallen_SX20
Distance: 2.1566% / 0.02156619
44.4 Basque_French
18.0 French_Seine-Maritime
13.2 Italian_Lombardy
9.6 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
9.0 Lithuanian_VZ
5.4 Sardinian
0.2 Igorot
0.2 Shetlandic

[Peterski]

Screw Bronze Age I'm just downloading Iron Age ones first.

[SharpFork]

Screw Bronze Age I'm just downloading Iron Age ones first.
I mean Bronze France is one place we can still know something more, but yeah...

[Peterski]

All Iron Age samples (unless I missed some):

ATT26
BES1248
BFM265
COL11
COL153i
COL153A
NOR3-15
ERS86
ERS88
PECH5
NOR4
Jeb8
ERS1164
NOR2B6
NOR3-6
PEY53


I mean Bronze France is one place we can still know something more, but yeah...

I will download Bronze Age ones after I finish with Iron Age ones.

[SharpFork]

Where can we see dating and location?

[Peterski]

Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history.

Abstract:

Genomic studies conducted on ancient individuals across Europe have unraveled how migrations have contributed to its present genetic landscape, but the territory of present-day France has yet to be connected to the broader European picture. We generated a large dataset comprising the complete mitochondrial genomes, Y chromosome markers and genotypes on a number of nuclear loci of interest, obtained through a DNA enrichment approach, of 203 individuals sampled across present-day France over a period spanning 7,000 years, complemented with a partially overlapping dataset of 58 low-coverage genomes. This panel provides, for the first time, a high-resolution transect of the dynamics of maternal and paternal lineages in France as well as of autosomal genotypes. Both parental lineages and genomic data revealed demographic patterns in France for the Neolithic and Bronze Age transition consistent with neighboring regions with a first wave of migration of Anatolian farmers, then varying degrees of admixture with autochthonous hunter-gatherers and a second high gene flow from individuals deriving part of their ancestry from the Pontic Steppe at the onset of the Bronze Age. Our data have also highlighted the persistence of the Magdalenian heritage in hunter-gatherer populations outside Spain and thus provide arguments for an expansion of these populations at the end of the Paleolithic period, more northerly than what has been described so far. Finally, no major demographic changes were detected during the transition between the Bronze and Iron Ages. (...)

[J. Ketch]

I'm expecting most of Bronze Age Northern France to be similar to Bronze Age Britain, and below the Loire to be mostly Basque like. East of the Loire part of the genetically West-Central-Euro Celtic homeland that later incorporated and influenced the rest.

Could be completely wrong of course.

[Peterski]

OK, I sent all the Iron Age ones to Davidski for Global25:

https://i.imgur.com/IZRSEt1.png

Will check their Eurogenes K15 scores also in 10 minutes.

[Peterski]

OK Eurogenes K15 results of France Iron Age samples:

97875

Check here: https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

I'm going to eat some lunch now, and BA will be later.

[Lucas]

Good example I think

BFM265 Iron Age

SNPs used for the calculation: 32 382
SNPs in calculator: 165 688
Genotype ratio: 19,54%

Components %
Amerindian 0,00
Arabian 1,67
Armenian 0,00
Basque 3,33
Central_African 0,10
Central_Euro 12,05
East_African 0,00
East_Asian 0,00
East_Balkan 0,00
East_Central_Asian 0,00
East_Central_Euro 2,50
East_Med 3,55
Eastern_Euro 1,51
Fennoscandian 3,87
French 9,55
Iberian 26,99
Indo-Chinese 0,00
Italian 4,07
Malayan 0,00
Near_Eastern 0,00
North_African 0,00
North_Atlantic 6,87
North_Caucasian 0,00
North_Sea 23,93
Northeast_African 0,00
Oceanian 0,00
Omotic 0,00
Pygmy 0,00
Siberian 0,00
South_Asian 0,00
South_Central_Asian 0,00
South_Chinese 0,00
Volga-Ural 0,00
West_African 0,00
West_Caucasian 0,00
West_Med 0,00


Target: xxx
Distance: 15.7139% / 15.71387512 | ADC: 1x
57.6 FR_Finistere
33.0 Yorkshire&Humber
5.2 PT_Azores
4.2 ES_Navarra

Target: xxx
Distance: 13.7270% / 13.72698365 | ADC: 0.5x
71.2 Yorkshire&Humber
19.2 ES_Navarra
9.6 ES_La_Rioja

Target: xxx
Distance: 13.5555% / 13.55546789 | ADC: 0.25x
55.0 Yorkshire&Humber
19.2 ES_Navarra
14.4 ES_La_Rioja
11.4 NL_Drenthe

Target: xxx
Distance: 13.5063% / 13.50628819
37.6 Yorkshire&Humber
25.4 NL_Drenthe
21.4 ES_Navarra
15.6 ES_La_Rioja

[Lucas]

Att26 Iron Age

SNPs used for the calculation: 19908
SNPs in calculator: 165688
Genotype ratio: 12,02%

Amerindian 0,75
Arabian 0,00
Armenian 0,00
Basque 2,79
Central_African 0,44
Central_Euro 4,14
East_African 0,88
East_Asian 0,00
East_Balkan 0,00
East_Central_Asian 0,00
East_Central_Euro 14,64
East_Med 0,00
Eastern_Euro 0,00
Fennoscandian 6,82
French 8,51
Iberian 14,82
Indo-Chinese 0,00
Italian 13,13
Malayan 0,00
Near_Eastern 0,00
North_African 0,00
North_Atlantic 10,25
North_Caucasian 0,00
North_Sea 16,51
Northeast_African 0,00
Oceanian 0,00
Omotic 0,00
Pygmy 0,00
Siberian 0,00
South_Asian 0,76
South_Central_Asian 0,00



Target: xxx
Distance: 8.1847% / 8.18465743
29.2 NE_England
18.4 IT_Aosta
13.0 PL_north-eastern(Suwalki)
11.0 Swiss_Italian
7.8 NL_Friesland
6.6 West_Prussia
6.2 ES_La_Rioja
4.8 Portugal_Lisboa
2.8 IT_Sardinia
0.2 Mandingo

Target: xxx
Distance: 8.4360% / 8.43600687 | ADC: 0.25x
47.4 FR_Ile-de-France
17.8 NE_England
16.6 IT_Aosta
11.6 PL_north-eastern(Suwalki)
5.4 West_Prussia
0.8 IT_Sardinia
0.4 ES_La_Rioja

Target: xxx
Distance: 8.9782% / 8.97815518 | ADC: 0.5x
79.0 FR_Ile-de-France
10.6 Neumark(East_Brandenburg)
8.8 West_Prussia
1.6 PL_north-eastern(Suwalki)

Target: xxx
Distance: 10.1351% / 10.13513783 | ADC: 1x
70.6 FR_Ile-de-France
11.2 Lorraine-Champagne-Ardenne
9.4 northern_Ostpreussen
8.8 Flemish

[XenophobicPrussian]

^ Literally doesn't tell us anything about them unless you're already extremely familiar with how pops score on K36. Can you plot them on a PCA plot or post distances to moderns?

[Roy]

Maybe migrants ? But unlikely, at the end of the day Celts were thought to come from Scandinavia so if some Celtic samples are Scandinavian like, it's not surprising.

The difference, distance is still quite big though. Maybe they were similar for other reasons than that.

[Lucas]

COL11 Iron Age

Components %
Amerindian 0,00
Arabian 0,00
Armenian 0,00
Basque 4,75
Central_African 0,00
Central_Euro 5,29
East_African 0,00
East_Asian 0,00
East_Balkan 5,95
East_Central_Asian 0,00
East_Central_Euro 11,13
East_Med 0,00
Eastern_Euro 4,90
Fennoscandian 6,24
French 12,44
Iberian 6,58
Indo-Chinese 0,00
Italian 5,18
Malayan 0,00
Near_Eastern 0,00
North_African 0,00
North_Atlantic 19,43
North_Caucasian 0,00
North_Sea 13,85
Northeast_African 0,00
Oceanian 0,00
Omotic 0,00
Pygmy 0,00
Siberian 0,00
South_Asian 2,48
South_Central_Asian 1,77
South_Chinese 0,00
Volga-Ural 0,00
West_African 0,00
West_Caucasian 0,00
West_Med 0,00



Target: xxx
Distance: 9.8383% / 9.83827158 | ADC: 1x
36.4 NL_Overijssel
32.0 Sachsen
25.4 Ireland
6.2 West-Midlands

Target: xxx
Distance: 9.4064% / 9.40640437 | ADC: 0.5x
34.2 Ireland
27.8 NL_Overijssel
24.2 Sachsen
10.0 Neumark(East_Brandenburg)
2.8 IT_Bolzano
0.6 Grenzmark
0.4 Punjabi_1000genomes

Target: xxx
Distance: 8.7791% / 8.77911076 | ADC: 0.25x
33.2 Ireland
32.4 NL_Overijssel
17.0 Neumark(East_Brandenburg)
8.2 IT_Bolzano
6.0 Ukraine_Western
2.8 Punjabi_1000genomes
0.4 Grenzmark

Target: xxx
Distance: 8.7298% / 8.72975271
35.8 Ireland
30.4 NL_Overijssel
12.0 Neumark(East_Brandenburg)
7.6 IT_Bolzano
5.4 Ukraine_Western
5.0 PL_Lublin
3.8 Punjabi_1000genomes

[Lucas]

The difference . distanse is still quite big though.

Distances in K36 are bigger. In G25 will be lower for sure.

[SharpFork]

^ Literally doesn't tell us anything about them unless you're already extremely familiar with how pops score on K36. Can you plot them on a PCA plot or post distances to moderns?


ATT26,37.37,21.78,13.11,1.13,17.75,0,2.94,0,4.09,0 ,0,0,0,0,1.82
BES1248,33.57,32.36,8.76,10.37,9.79,1.45,0.31,0,0. 2,0.9,0,1.93,0,0,0.35
BFM265,28.12,34.55,11.89,3.86,11.42,3.64,4.73,0.93 ,0.01,0,0,0,0.4,0.44,0
COL11,33.38,25.25,15.49,6.28,10.75,2.53,0,0,5.23,0 ,0,0,0,0,1.09
COL153A,29.63,22.17,8.74,6.95,15.4,0,13.47,3.63,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0
COL153i,21.54,30.34,8.12,7.3,17.4,8.39,0,0.3,0,0,1 .34,0,3.32,1.94,0
ERS1164,21.87,34.86,9.97,8.73,12.71,4.57,1.48,0.3, 1.19,0.29,2.53,0,0,0,1.5
ERS86,24.03,24.52,13.52,7.2,21.49,0,6.5,0.93,0,0,0 ,0,0.4,0.78,0.62
ERS88,29.83,18.14,1.07,7.03,18.8,4,17.58,2.25,0,0, 0,1.01,0,0.29,0
Jeb8,26.5,30.24,7.46,3.21,20.32,2.45,4.19,0.59,0,0 ,0,2.54,2.5,0,0
NOR2B6,20.06,23.31,14.3,5.08,18.27,3.13,11.32,4.53 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
NOR3-15,23.05,33.21,17.52,0.07,14.08,5.44,0,2.89,0,0,0. 65,0,0.51,2.59,0
NOR3-6,24.41,33.02,12.81,6.55,12.21,6.68,0,1.82,1.91,0, 0,0.38,0.2,0,0
NOR4,29.01,19.86,6.35,2.84,26.46,0,13.8,0.37,0,0,0 .97,0,0.34,0,0
PECH5,29.46,24.4,9.14,0,31.91,0,0,0.41,0,1.63,0.72 ,2.34,0,0,0
PEY53,33.74,36.39,5.11,4.4,8.63,4.19,2.8,3.18,0,0, 0,0.29,1.27,0,0
Use this:

http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k15-vahaduo.htm

It should be correct?

[Lucas]

^ Literally doesn't tell us anything about them unless you're already extremely familiar with how pops score on K36. Can you plot them on a PCA plot or post distances to moderns?

Two first are French like mostly, third is very Irish.

[Lucas]

ATT26,37.37,21.78,13.11,1.13,17.75,0,2.94,0,4.09,0 ,0,0,0,0,1.82
BES1248,33.57,32.36,8.76,10.37,9.79,1.45,0.31,0,0. 2,0.9,0,1.93,0,0,0.35
BFM265,28.12,34.55,11.89,3.86,11.42,3.64,4.73,0.93 ,0.01,0,0,0,0.4,0.44,0
COL11,33.38,25.25,15.49,6.28,10.75,2.53,0,0,5.23,0 ,0,0,0,0,1.09
COL153A,29.63,22.17,8.74,6.95,15.4,0,13.47,3.63,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0
COL153i,21.54,30.34,8.12,7.3,17.4,8.39,0,0.3,0,0,1 .34,0,3.32,1.94,0
ERS1164,21.87,34.86,9.97,8.73,12.71,4.57,1.48,0.3, 1.19,0.29,2.53,0,0,0,1.5
ERS86,24.03,24.52,13.52,7.2,21.49,0,6.5,0.93,0,0,0 ,0,0.4,0.78,0.62
ERS88,29.83,18.14,1.07,7.03,18.8,4,17.58,2.25,0,0, 0,1.01,0,0.29,0
Jeb8,26.5,30.24,7.46,3.21,20.32,2.45,4.19,0.59,0,0 ,0,2.54,2.5,0,0
NOR2B6,20.06,23.31,14.3,5.08,18.27,3.13,11.32,4.53 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
NOR3-15,23.05,33.21,17.52,0.07,14.08,5.44,0,2.89,0,0,0. 65,0,0.51,2.59,0
NOR3-6,24.41,33.02,12.81,6.55,12.21,6.68,0,1.82,1.91,0, 0,0.38,0.2,0,0
NOR4,29.01,19.86,6.35,2.84,26.46,0,13.8,0.37,0,0,0 .97,0,0.34,0,0
PECH5,29.46,24.4,9.14,0,31.91,0,0,0.41,0,1.63,0.72 ,2.34,0,0,0
PEY53,33.74,36.39,5.11,4.4,8.63,4.19,2.8,3.18,0,0, 0,0.29,1.27,0,0
Use this:

http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k15-vahaduo.htm

It should be correct?

Yes, place them in K15 PCA.

[Lucas]

ATT26,37.37,21.78,13.11,1.13,17.75,0,2.94,0,4.09,0 ,0,0,0,0,1.82
BES1248,33.57,32.36,8.76,10.37,9.79,1.45,0.31,0,0. 2,0.9,0,1.93,0,0,0.35
BFM265,28.12,34.55,11.89,3.86,11.42,3.64,4.73,0.93 ,0.01,0,0,0,0.4,0.44,0
COL11,33.38,25.25,15.49,6.28,10.75,2.53,0,0,5.23,0 ,0,0,0,0,1.09
COL153A,29.63,22.17,8.74,6.95,15.4,0,13.47,3.63,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0
COL153i,21.54,30.34,8.12,7.3,17.4,8.39,0,0.3,0,0,1 .34,0,3.32,1.94,0
ERS1164,21.87,34.86,9.97,8.73,12.71,4.57,1.48,0.3, 1.19,0.29,2.53,0,0,0,1.5
ERS86,24.03,24.52,13.52,7.2,21.49,0,6.5,0.93,0,0,0 ,0,0.4,0.78,0.62
ERS88,29.83,18.14,1.07,7.03,18.8,4,17.58,2.25,0,0, 0,1.01,0,0.29,0
Jeb8,26.5,30.24,7.46,3.21,20.32,2.45,4.19,0.59,0,0 ,0,2.54,2.5,0,0
NOR2B6,20.06,23.31,14.3,5.08,18.27,3.13,11.32,4.53 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
NOR3-15,23.05,33.21,17.52,0.07,14.08,5.44,0,2.89,0,0,0. 65,0,0.51,2.59,0
NOR3-6,24.41,33.02,12.81,6.55,12.21,6.68,0,1.82,1.91,0, 0,0.38,0.2,0,0
NOR4,29.01,19.86,6.35,2.84,26.46,0,13.8,0.37,0,0,0 .97,0,0.34,0,0
PECH5,29.46,24.4,9.14,0,31.91,0,0,0.41,0,1.63,0.72 ,2.34,0,0,0
PEY53,33.74,36.39,5.11,4.4,8.63,4.19,2.8,3.18,0,0, 0,0.29,1.27,0,0
Use this:

http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k15-vahaduo.htm

It should be correct?

I see in K15 thre more Scanic and lesss Frenchy. I think K36 is better for them. At least for those which I checked.

Target: PEY53
Distance: 7.4034% / 7.40341896 | ADC: 0.5x
41.6 Irish
26.2 Southeast_English
17.2 French_Basque
15.0 Orcadian

Target: PECH5
Distance: 15.9464% / 15.94637519 | ADC: 0.5x
60.0 Spanish_Galicia
26.0 Spanish_Cantabria
9.2 Southwest_English
4.8 Sardinian

Target: NOR4
Distance: 10.7288% / 10.72882472 | ADC: 0.5x
60.4 Spanish_Galicia
38.0 Italy_Lombardy
0.8 Sardinian
0.8 West_German

Target: NOR3-6
Distance: 6.1643% / 6.16429788 | ADC: 0.5x
36.8 North_German
33.0 German_Bavarian
25.6 French_Basque
4.6 Austrian

Target: NOR3-15
Distance: 11.3392% / 11.33915116 | ADC: 0.5x
35.4 North_German
19.0 French_Basque
16.2 Southwest_French
15.4 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
14.0 Czech

Target: NOR2B6
Distance: 4.6527% / 4.65265468 | ADC: 0.5x
72.4 Italy_Trentino
19.6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
4.8 Slovenian
3.2 Lithuanian

Target: Jeb8
Distance: 5.0049% / 5.00488518 | ADC: 0.5x
64.8 France-South
17.6 Spanish_Cantabria
16.0 Southwest_English
1.6 French_Basque

Target: ERS88
Distance: 10.3518% / 10.35175321 | ADC: 0.5x
72.8 Italy_Lombardy
26.2 West_German
1.0 Libyan_Jewish

Target: ERS1164
Distance: 5.7850% / 5.78497897 | ADC: 0.5x
40.6 South_Dutch
34.8 French_Basque
14.8 Austrian
9.2 North_German
0.6 Tatar

Target: ERS1164
Distance: 5.7850% / 5.78497897 | ADC: 0.5x
40.6 South_Dutch
34.8 French_Basque
14.8 Austrian
9.2 North_German
0.6 Tatar

Target: COL153i
Distance: 7.9004% / 7.90037679 | ADC: 0.5x
41.6 Southwest_French
33.0 South_Dutch
11.0 German_Bavarian
6.0 Spanish_Cantabria
4.0 French_Basque
2.2 Chechen
2.0 Nogay
0.2 Papuan

Target: COL153A
Distance: 6.4833% / 6.48328372 | ADC: 0.5x
52.2 West_German
23.4 Italy_Lombardy
20.4 Spanish_Galicia
3.2 Italy_Trentino
0.8 Yemenite_Jewish

Target: COL11
Distance: 6.2210% / 6.22102019 | ADC: 0.5x
53.8 Southwest_English
21.0 East_German
15.8 Swedish
7.2 North_Dutch
2.2 Chamar

Target: BFM265
Distance: 4.9070% / 4.90700203 | ADC: 0.5x
41.6 Irish
33.0 German_Bavarian
19.2 French_Basque
6.2 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Target: BES1248
Distance: 4.2136% / 4.21357697 | ADC: 0.5x
39.2 Southeast_English
30.8 England
22.4 West_Scottish
7.6 French_Basque

Target: ATT26
Distance: 11.9658% / 11.96576598 | ADC: 0.5x
56.4 West_German
23.0 Southwest_English
14.4 Spanish_Galicia
6.2 West_Norwegian

[gixajo]

Good example I think


19.2 ES_Navarra
14.4 ES_La_Rioja



21.4 ES_Navarra
15.6 ES_La_Rioja

They must score high in WHG and not only steppe in calculators with those components.

[Lucas]

Target: PEY53
Distance: 6.6620% / 6.66202098 | ADC: 0.25x
49.6 Orcadian
24.8 West_Scottish
24.4 French_Basque
1.2 Saudi

Target: PECH5
Distance: 13.3922% / 13.39219617 | ADC: 0.25x
51.4 Southwest_English
39.0 Sardinian
9.6 West_Norwegian

Target: NOR4
Distance: 8.1492% / 8.14915134 | ADC: 0.25x
40.8 Italy_Lombardy
32.0 West_Norwegian
27.2 Sardinian

Target: NOR3-6
Distance: 4.2682% / 4.26822808 | ADC: 0.25x
54.4 North_German
35.2 French_Basque
6.4 Russian_Smolensk
2.8 North_Ossetian
1.2 Kalash

Target: NOR3-15
Distance: 10.1414% / 10.14140038 | ADC: 0.25x
33.8 French_Basque
29.0 Irish
17.4 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
16.4 Lithuanian
2.6 North_Ossetian
0.8 Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator

Target: NOR2B6
Distance: 3.2513% / 3.25133046 | ADC: 0.25x
51.2 Italy_Trentino
33.0 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
11.6 Lithuanian
2.2 Saudi
2.0 Sardinian

Target: Jeb8
Distance: 3.8086% / 3.80860151 | ADC: 0.25x
48.0 France-South
23.4 Southwest_English
17.2 Spanish_Cantabria
9.2 French_Basque
1.2 Papuan
1.0 Karitiana

Target: ERS88
Distance: 9.5577% / 9.55774363 | ADC: 0.25x
55.2 Italy_Lombardy
22.2 West_German
11.6 Libyan_Jewish
11.0 West_Norwegian

Target: ERS86
Distance: 4.0761% / 4.07611653 | ADC: 0.25x
53.4 France-South
20.0 Spanish_Galicia
15.0 Latvian
7.6 Sardinian
3.8 North_Swedish
0.2 Southwest_French

Target: ERS1164
Distance: 3.2440% / 3.24397671 | ADC: 0.25x
46.0 French_Basque
40.0 North_German
13.0 Tatar
0.8 Austrian
0.2 Yoruban

Target: COL153i
Distance: 4.8732% / 4.87317459 | ADC: 0.25x
30.6 French_Basque
22.4 England
19.4 Spanish_Cantabria
14.8 East_German
8.6 Balkar
2.0 Papuan
1.8 Tatar
0.4 Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator

Target: COL153A
Distance: 5.4916% / 5.49160852 | ADC: 0.25x
41.8 West_German
17.4 Spanish_Galicia
17.2 France-South
9.0 Italy_Lombardy
8.0 West_Norwegian
6.6 Yemenite_Jewish

Target: COL11
Distance: 5.3046% / 5.30460517 | ADC: 0.25x
72.4 Southwest_English
10.4 Lithuanian
7.2 Danish
5.8 Swedish
4.2 Chamar

Target: BFM265
Distance: 4.1252% / 4.12517321 | ADC: 0.25x
62.2 Irish
23.0 French_Basque
8.0 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
6.8 Bulgarian_Thracian

Target: BES1248
Distance: 2.9408% / 2.94078078 | ADC: 0.25x
44.0 West_Scottish
35.2 Scotland
15.6 French_Basque
4.4 Aland_Sweden
0.8 Anzick-1

Target: ATT26
Distance: 10.1272% / 10.12718207 | ADC: 0.25x
71.4 West_Norwegian
15.4 Sardinian
11.6 Spanish_Galicia
1.6 Sakilli

[gixajo]

Yes, place them in K15 PCA.

Target: gixajo
Distance: 8.5924% / 8.59241068
26.8 NOR2B6
25.0 Jeb8
18.2 PECH5
16.8 COL153i
6.8 ERS1164
6.4 NOR3-15

Distance to: gixajo
10.15329011 Jeb8
12.69928344 ERS86
12.78776759 COL153i
13.86413719 NOR2B6
15.18737963 ERS1164
15.40080517 NOR3-15
16.03148153 NOR3-6
16.51676724 BFM265
17.35875572 PECH5
19.15488188 NOR4
19.62168698 COL153A
22.22644596 PEY53
22.95239421 BES1248
23.61308959 ATT26
23.78826391 COL11
24.13346846 ERS88

[gixajo]

Target: Jeb8
Distance: 2.5345% / 2.53451826
44.0 Orcadian
24.4 French_Basque
20.0 Sardinian
4.6 West_Norwegian
3.0 Southwest_English
2.0 Karitiana
2.0 Papuan

And my k15 of the same calculator:

Target: gixajo
Distance: 3.4839% / 3.48394996
41.4 French_Basque
35.0 Spanish_Galicia
7.8 Ukrainian_Lviv
7.4 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
6.2 Sardinian
1.4 Somali
0.4 North_Ossetian
0.4 Papuan

[SharpFork]

What are good distances on K15?

[XenophobicPrussian]

Again, just like BA Switzerland and Bavaria, completely mixed group and non-homogenous.


Distance to: PEY53
9.72350246 Southeast_English
10.20197040 Irish
10.38149797 Southwest_English

Distance to: PECH5
16.65402654 Spanish_Galicia
17.08797238 France-South
17.37618485 Spanish_Cantabria

Distance to: NOR4
11.53827977 Spanish_Galicia
12.29058990 Italy_Lombardy
12.67998817 Portuguese

Distance to: NOR3-6
10.30015534 South_Dutch
10.46375650 German_Bavarian
12.13412131 French

Distance to: NOR3-15
15.36652856 German_Bavarian
15.94057088 South_Dutch
16.08980112 French

Distance to: NOR2B6
6.02952734 Italy_Trentino
7.45502515 Italy_Friuli
8.30534767 Italy_Piedmont

Distance to: Jeb8
6.17019449 France-South
8.29965662 Spanish_Cataluna
9.03606109 French

Distance to: ERS88
12.04279037 Italy_Lombardy
12.81326266 Italy_Veneto
13.52011464 Italy_Aostavalley

Distance to: ERS86
8.80119310 France-South
9.29623580 Spanish_Galicia
10.34985024 Spanish_Cataluna

Distance to: ERS1164
12.16415636 South_Dutch
12.48421804 German_Bavarian
13.31741717 French

Distance to: COL153i
12.20184822 French
12.46039325 France-South
12.73798257 Spanish_Cataluna

Distance to: COL153A
9.28228959 French
9.82291199 Italy_Aostavalley
10.82378400 Italy_Trentino

Distance to: COL11
8.88110916 North_German
8.90314551 Dutch
9.03960729 Southwest_English

Distance to: BFM265
9.62151755 South_Dutch
9.64661080 Belgium
9.97768510 German_Bavarian

Distance to: BES1248
5.34108603 Southeast_English
5.59627555 England
5.84556242 Southwest_English

Distance to: ATT26
12.74115772 West_German
13.73145295 Southwest_English
14.13941654 Belgium

8 southern shifted ones(some even less than N. Iberia now, although that could just be a product of K15 and not using G25), 7 northern shifted ones.

I said it before and I'll say it again, lol. More Rhaetians perhaps. :picard1: Anyone know where in France these samples are from? Is it one spot or the entire country?

[Peterski]

They are probably from different regions of France:

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB36529

[Raizen]

Again, just like BA Switzerland and Bavaria, completely mixed group and non-homogenous.



8 southern shifted ones(some even less than N. Iberia now, although that could just be a product of K15 and not using G25), 7 northern shifted ones.

I said it before and I'll say it again, lol. More Rhaetians perhaps. :picard1: Anyone know where in France these samples are from? Is it one spot or the entire country?

my bet is that the northern shifted ones are from a site further north. but apparently the french didn't changed much since the gauls.

[SharpFork]

I can't be bothered speculating until we have both G25, dating and location of the samples.

[Lucas]

my bet is that the northern shifted ones are from a site further north. but apparently the french didn't changed much since the gauls.

I think it's true logically. But wait.

[Lucas]

I can't be bothered speculating until we have both G25, dating and location of the samples.

Should be added this evening.

[Raizen]

I think it's true logically. But wait.

will we have frankish-era samples??

[Lucas]

will we have frankish-era samples??

Not in this dataset. Younger are Iron age Gauls.

[Peterski]

These samples are from:

https://www.inrap.fr/ancestra-10433

[Lucas]

These samples are from:

https://www.inrap.fr/ancestra-10433



Le projet ANCESTRA a pour but de retracer le peuplement du territoire correspondant à la France de nos jours en étudiant l’impact de chaque vague de migration depuis le Néolithique jusqu’à l’époque Mérovingienne.

Analyse paléogénétique d'ossements humains datés du Néolithique au haut Moyen Âge provenant du Languedoc-Roussillon, d'Alsace et de Picardie.

So West German shifted from Alsace, British and Scandic shifted from Picardie and Italian shifted from Languedoc? If it would be so easy? :) So not great change since those times.

Also we should expect Frankish too...

[SharpFork]

I guess this time they are not Rhaetians but actual Basques/Iberians, lol

[Peterski]

I sent also Bronze Age samples to Davidski:

BIS130
BIS385
EUG11
NIED
OBE3626-1
OBE3722
PIR3037AB
PIR3116B
PSS4170
QUIN234
QUIN58
RIX15
RIX2
RIX4

And here their Eurogenes K15 results:

97876

[Peterski]

There are two new French Bell Beakers in this paper as well, here is one of them already in G25:


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Bell_Beaker_FRA:CBV95,0.138864,0.116786,0.047894,0 .085272,0.020311,0.039324,0.001175,0.003923,-0.024747,-0.031345,0.011367,0.002098,-0.000149,-0.015964,0.038273,-0.00305,-0.006258,-0.001774,-0.004651,0.004252,0.000749,-0.006801,0.003821,0.00964,-0.00455

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Bell_Beaker_FRA:CBV95,0.0122,0.0115,0.0127,0.0264, 0.0066,0.0141,0.0005,0.0017,-0.0121,-0.0172,0.007,0.0014,-0.0001,-0.0116,0.0282,-0.0023,-0.0048,-0.0014,-0.0037,0.0034,0.0006,-0.0055,0.0031,0.008,-0.0038