View Full Version : Croat K13 regional (and national) averages
1. Herzegovina (sample size=31)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzegovina
Collected from: Čapljina, Mostar, Široki Brijeg, Grude, Stolac, Posušje municipalities
North_Atlantic 25.11
Baltic 32.51
West_Med 15.65
West_Asian 8.52
East_Med 14.17
Red_Sea 1.2
South_Asian 0.40
East_Asian 0.17
Siberian 0.57
Amerindian 0.49
Oceanian 0.36
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Testing, as you can see it's very close to academic Herzegovina_Croat average made from much smaller sample size.
I also included latest Serb, Moldovan/Romanian and Bosniak averages in the run:
Distance to: Herzegovina
1.65902059 Bosniak_Sarajevo
1.69926455 Croat_Herzegovina
1.72577519 Bosniak
2.10152326 Serb_B&H
2.30430033 Croat_Bosnia
2.40698982 Croat_Split
2.47489394 Serb_Krajina
3.27716341 Moldova_North
3.44215049 Serb_Serbia
3.55061966 Serb_Dalmatia
3.56732393 Szekely_Hungarian
3.80825419 Serb
3.88170066 Croat
4.24397588 Croat_BiH
5.14708655 Croat_Zagreb
5.24655125 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.33802398 Moldova_Centre
5.36083949 Croat_Croatia
5.54488954 Serb_Belgrade
5.80068099 Romanian_Average
5.94049661 Romania_Moldavia_average
5.98706105 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
6.20149982 Csango_Hungarian
6.44506012 Moldova_average
6.46468097 Serb_Shopluk
vbnetkhio
04-17-2020, 03:41 PM
1. Herzegovina (sample size=31)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzegovina
Collected from: Čapljina, Mostar, Široki Brijeg, Grude, Stolac, Posušje municipalities
North_Atlantic 25.11
Baltic 32.51
West_Med 15.65
West_Asian 8.52
East_Med 14.17
Red_Sea 1.2
South_Asian 0.40
East_Asian 0.17
Siberian 0.57
Amerindian 0.49
Oceanian 0.36
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Testing, as you can see it's very close to academic Herzegovina_Croat average made from much smaller sample size.
I also included latest Serb, Moldovan/Romanian and Bosniak averages in the run:
Distance to: Herzegovina
1.65902059 Bosniak_Sarajevo
1.69926455 Croat_Herzegovina
1.72577519 Bosniak
2.10152326 Serb_B&H
2.30430033 Croat_Bosnia
2.40698982 Croat_Split
2.47489394 Serb_Krajina
3.27716341 Moldova_North
3.44215049 Serb_Serbia
3.55061966 Serb_Dalmatia
3.56732393 Szekely_Hungarian
3.80825419 Serb
3.88170066 Croat
4.24397588 Croat_BiH
5.14708655 Croat_Zagreb
5.24655125 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.33802398 Moldova_Centre
5.36083949 Croat_Croatia
5.54488954 Serb_Belgrade
5.80068099 Romanian_Average
5.94049661 Romania_Moldavia_average
5.98706105 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
6.20149982 Csango_Hungarian
6.44506012 Moldova_average
6.46468097 Serb_Shopluk
could you post the new Romanian and Moldovan averages?
could you post the new Romanian and Moldovan averages?
I believe you need to turn to Ion Basescul for that.
could you post the new Romanian and Moldovan averages?
Delete all old Romanian and Moldovan ones except Romanian_average, that one is good.
Than add these
Romania_Moldavia_average,23.92,27.62,16.56,9.91,16 .68,1.51,0.58,0.43,1.36,0.63,0.46,0.16,0.16
Romania_Moldavia_North,23.82,28.53,15.49,10.61,16. 38,1.41,0.68,0.40,1.25,0.60,0.40,0.22,0.21
Romania_Moldavia_South,24.02,26.76,17.58,9.25,16.9 7,1.60,0.48,0.46,1.47,0.65,0.52,0.10,0.12
Moldova_average,22.51,27.80,16.89,10.65,16.33,2.30 ,0.44,0.62,1.19,0.54,0.42,0.10,0.20
Moldova_North,25.89,33.33,14.92,8.89,11.43,1.48,0. 65,0.56,1.47,0.35,0.61,0.17,0.26
Moldova_Centre,21.89,29.51,16.06,10.47,16.10,1.90, 0.53,0.83,1.14,0.81,0.48,0.08,0.20
Moldova_South,21.51,24.20,18.33,11.54,18.60,2.94,0 .29,0.49,1.11,0.42,0.29,0.10,0.18
Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes,24.50,36.97,13.80,8.11,11 .00,1.03,1.07,0.57,1.66,0.66,0.26,0.12,0.25
Serbian_Belgrade_academic,24.42,28.12,17.06,9.06,1 7.09,1.48,0.45,0.36,0.73,0.56,0.54,0.1,0.04
Romanian_Oltenia,23.83,17.91,10.68,17.72,1.81,0.67 ,0.85,0.60,0.40,0.37,0.09,0.06,0.00
Romanian_Muntenia,21.74,24.52,16.95,11.73,19.26,2. 31,0.82,0.55,1,0.45,0.34,0.26,0.07
Romanian_Wallachia_average,22.68,24.86,17.47,11.15 ,18.47,2.11,0.71,0.70,0.85,0.41,0.36,0.16,0.06
Romanian_Transylvania,23.98,26.24,17.43,9.61,17.51 ,1.68,0.64,0.62,1.13,0.54,0.40,0.09,0.12
2. Dalmatia (sample size=27)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia
Collected from: Split, Zadar, Sinj, Trogir, Kaštela, Ugljan & Vis Islands, Vrlika
North_Atlantic 25.55
Baltic 31
West_Med 17.30
West_Asian 8.42
East_Med 13.71
Red_Sea 1.32
South_Asian 0.35
East_Asian 0.21
Siberian 0.62
Amerindian 0.56
Oceanian 0.50
Northeast_African 0.13
Sub-Saharan 0.13
Again very close to academic samples from Split, largest Dalmatian city.
Distance to: Dalmatia
1.33465351 Serb_Krajina
1.42611360 Serb_B&H
1.62030861 Croat_Split
1.66027106 Bosniak
2.62627112 Serb_Dalmatia
2.66522044 Serb
2.68227515 Croat_Bosnia
2.81474025 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.89772324 Serb_Serbia
3.31609710 Croat_Herzegovina
4.08183782 Szekely_Hungarian
4.20249926 Moldova_North
4.26683504 Croat_BiH
4.44132863 Croat
4.64172382 Serb_Belgrade
4.88414783 Romanian_Average
4.98693293 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.13446200 Romania_Moldavia_average
5.30664678 Moldova_Centre
5.34998131 Serb_Shopluk
5.64094850 Croat_Zagreb
5.70994746 Romania_Moldavia_South
5.74048778 Croat_Croatia
5.74106262 Moldova_average
5.89102708 Csango_Hungarian
I have to say Dalmatian Croat samples are more heterogenous in comparison with Herzegovina Croats.
Made Dalmatian Islander average just for fun. Small sample size (5)
It's closest to Italians from Friuli Venezia-Giulia in single population sharing LOL! (but with giant distances) :)
It's because of that atypical person from Ugljan with really high North Atlantic and extremelly low Baltic score (yes, he is pure Croat fully native to the Island)
Distance to: Dalmatian_Islands
7.75193524 Friuli-VG
8.51829208 Montenegrin
8.67349411 Bosniak_Sandzak
9.05244166 Trentino
9.28253737 Macedonian_Northwest
9.42953869 Romanian_Transylvania
9.50752860 Romania_Moldavia_South
9.62425224 North_Macedonian
9.78360363 Veneto
10.07783239 Macedonian
10.14571831 Romanian_Wallachia_average
10.40662770 Romania_Moldavia_average
10.45555833 Serb_Shopluk
10.47424460 Serb_Belgrade
10.48187006 Macedonian_East
10.60470179 Vlach_North-Macedonia
10.62586938 Romanian_Average
10.73684311 Swiss_French
10.73753696 Moldova_South
10.94962556 Piedmont
11.08508908 Serb
11.12119148 Serb_Dalmatia
11.14040843 Romanian_Muntenia
11.28283652 Moldova_average
11.40051753 Bulgarian
Target: Dalmatian_Islands
Distance: 2.5719% / 2.57185721 | ADC: 0.25x
29.8 Trentino
24.8 Friuli-VG
15.4 Romanian_Oltenia
13.8 Romania_Moldavia_South
12.4 Csango_Hungarian
2.2 Algerian
1.2 West_Greenlander
0.4 NAN_Melanesian
17571imre
04-17-2020, 04:30 PM
Delete all old Romanian and Moldovan ones except Romanian_average, that one is good.
Than add these
Romania_Moldavia_average,23.92,27.62,16.56,9.91,16 .68,1.51,0.58,0.43,1.36,0.63,0.46,0.16,0.16
Romania_Moldavia_North,23.82,28.53,15.49,10.61,16. 38,1.41,0.68,0.40,1.25,0.60,0.40,0.22,0.21
Romania_Moldavia_South,24.02,26.76,17.58,9.25,16.9 7,1.60,0.48,0.46,1.47,0.65,0.52,0.10,0.12
Moldova_average,22.51,27.80,16.89,10.65,16.33,2.30 ,0.44,0.62,1.19,0.54,0.42,0.10,0.20
Moldova_North,25.89,33.33,14.92,8.89,11.43,1.48,0. 65,0.56,1.47,0.35,0.61,0.17,0.26
Moldova_Centre,21.89,29.51,16.06,10.47,16.10,1.90, 0.53,0.83,1.14,0.81,0.48,0.08,0.20
Moldova_South,21.51,24.20,18.33,11.54,18.60,2.94,0 .29,0.49,1.11,0.42,0.29,0.10,0.18
Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes,24.50,36.97,13.80,8.11,11 .00,1.03,1.07,0.57,1.66,0.66,0.26,0.12,0.25
Serbian_Belgrade_academic,24.42,28.12,17.06,9.06,1 7.09,1.48,0.45,0.36,0.73,0.56,0.54,0.1,0.04
Romanian_Oltenia,23.83,17.91,10.68,17.72,1.81,0.67 ,0.85,0.60,0.40,0.37,0.09,0.06,0.00
Romanian_Muntenia,21.74,24.52,16.95,11.73,19.26,2. 31,0.82,0.55,1,0.45,0.34,0.26,0.07
Romanian_Wallachia_average,22.68,24.86,17.47,11.15 ,18.47,2.11,0.71,0.70,0.85,0.41,0.36,0.16,0.06
Romanian_Transylvania,23.98,26.24,17.43,9.61,17.51 ,1.68,0.64,0.62,1.13,0.54,0.40,0.09,0.12
will K15 also get new averages?
will K15 also get new averages?
K15 kinda sucks. At least for most people, not for all.
Islander average without outlier (but I included his child), much more normal and closest to Split Croats.
North_Atlantic 26.66
Baltic 31.23
West_Med 15.23
West_Asian 9.26
East_Med 12.95
Red_Sea 2
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.24
Siberian 0.90
Amerindian 0.64
Oceanian 0.71
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.18
Distance to: Dalmatian_Islander
2.09602004 Croat_Split
2.27670815 Bosniak
2.55411433 Croat_Bosnia
2.60865866 Szekely_Hungarian
2.61759432 Croat_Herzegovina
2.83245171 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.83855597 Serb_Krajina
2.96578826 Moldova_North
3.00274874 Croat
3.21077872 Serb_B&H
3.43294061 Croat_BiH
3.91412826 Serb_Dalmatia
4.14121963 Croat_Croatia
4.22500888 Serb
4.30646026 Croat_Zagreb
4.41247096 Serb_Serbia
4.62917919 Csango_Hungarian
5.48782288 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.69312358 Slovenian
5.82690312 Hungarian_New
5.95954696 Romanian_Average
5.98325162 Serb_Belgrade
6.12836030 Romania_Moldavia_average
6.21063604 Moldova_Centre
6.76136820 Moldova_average
Lucas
04-17-2020, 05:29 PM
What I can add to K13 vahaduo?
Coastal Dalmatian Croat average, sample size 15
North_Atlantic 26.28
Baltic 31.59
West_Med 15.81
West_Asian 7.99
East_Med 12.82
Red_Sea 1.16
South_Asian 0.54
East_Asian 0.51
Siberian 0.60
Amerindian 0.52
Oceanian 0.31
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Distance to: Dalmatian_Coast
1.07814656 Croat_Split
1.57378525 Croat_Bosnia
2.05565075 Bosniak
2.06855022 Croat_Herzegovina
2.15346233 Szekely_Hungarian
2.48598525 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.55329199 Serb_Krajina
2.61556877 Croat
2.70294862 Croat_BiH
2.78373849 Moldova_North
2.81371640 Serb_B&H
3.84654390 Serb_Dalmatia
3.91695034 Croat_Zagreb
3.95901503 Croat_Croatia
4.18143516 Serb
4.29655676 Serb_Serbia
4.76090328 Csango_Hungarian
5.23429478 Slovenian
5.95473761 Hungarian_New
5.96986600 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.05002479 Serb_Belgrade
6.25335910 Romanian_Average
6.40622354 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
6.41972741 Romania_Moldavia_average
6.44460239 Moldova_Centre
What I can add to K13 vahaduo?
Yes, I will send them to you, but I didn't make all of them yet. :)
They'll be ready by the end of today.
Very similar to my results.
Dalmatian Hinterland, sample size 6. Btw islander/coastal/hinterland averages won't be added to Vahaduuo (only general Dalmatian Croat will be), they are for my own amusement :P
North_Atlantic 25.40
Baltic 31.31
West_Med 17.42
West_Asian 7.34
East_Med 13.72
Red_Sea 1.36
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.40
Amerindian 0.69
Oceanian 0.55
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Distance to: Dalmatian_Hinterland
1.79722008 Croat_Split
1.97555056 Serb_B&H
2.14944179 Serb_Krajina
2.36421234 Bosniak
2.56624239 Croat_Bosnia
3.28580279 Serb_Dalmatia
3.31083071 Serb
3.36913678 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.45010145 Serb_Serbia
3.53551976 Croat_Herzegovina
4.19885699 Szekely_Hungarian
4.42278546 Croat_BiH
4.50712769 Moldova_North
4.52731709 Croat
5.10405721 Serb_Belgrade
5.58643894 Croat_Zagreb
5.64084214 Romanian_Average
5.76096346 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.78108121 Romania_Moldavia_average
5.79310797 Serb_Shopluk
5.82297175 Croat_Croatia
5.88622969 Moldova_Centre
6.05057022 Csango_Hungarian
6.20294285 Romania_Moldavia_South
6.38109708 Moldova_average
17571imre
04-17-2020, 06:17 PM
K15 kinda sucks. At least for most people, not for all.
yes for everyone diffrent my k15 results make more sense then my k13 results.
3. Lika-Senj (sample size=12)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika-Senj_County
Collected from: Perušić, Senj municipalities and northern part of Pag Island
North_Atlantic 26.27
Baltic 32.93
West_Med 15.49
West_Asian 7.27
East_Med 13.14
Red_Sea 1.9
South_Asian 0.34
East_Asian 0.29
Siberian 0.60
Amerindian 0.34
Oceanian 0.40
Northeast_African 0.11
Sub-Saharan 0.11
Closest to Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina which makes sense.
Distance to: Lika-Senj
1.73764208 Croat_Bosnia
1.80706945 Croat_Herzegovina
2.05450724 Szekely_Hungarian
2.33970084 Croat
2.64726274 Croat_Split
2.68521880 Moldova_North
3.00791002 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.10322111 Croat_BiH
3.21264688 Bosniak
3.40956009 Croat_Zagreb
3.70035133 Croat_Croatia
3.99131557 Serb_B&H
4.00648225 Serb_Krajina
4.96904417 Csango_Hungarian
5.01418264 Slovenian
5.17303586 Serb_Dalmatia
5.27724360 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
5.39831455 Serb_Serbia
5.55146827 Serb
5.91715303 Hungarian_New
6.99254603 Romania_Moldavia_North
7.22865133 Serb_Belgrade
7.29403181 Moldova_Centre
7.60453154 Romanian_Average
7.64227060 Romania_Moldavia_average
Well, Dalmatian average will be slightly updated as I received sample from Trogir :)
Bessarion
04-17-2020, 08:57 PM
Any chance for "continental" Croats. I didn't remember what population Red Sea referred to (I have slightly lower in comparison to all others).
Any chance for "continental" Croats. I didn't remember what population Red Sea referred to (I have slightly lower in comparison to all others).
Yes, they will be posted now.
I send you message to send me your results, so I could include you if your foreign ancestry is not too recent.
Bessarion
04-17-2020, 09:22 PM
K13
Population
North_Atlantic 32.03 Pct
Baltic 29.73 Pct
West_Med 12.69 Pct
West_Asian 9.03 Pct
East_Med 12.57 Pct
Red_Sea 0.74 Pct
South_Asian 0.19 Pct
East_Asian 0.74 Pct
Siberian 0.78 Pct
Amerindian 1.27 Pct
Oceanian 0.22 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
K15
Population
North_Sea 25.40 Pct
Atlantic 18.20 Pct
Baltic 17.76 Pct
Eastern_Euro 9.24 Pct
West_Med 8.40 Pct
West_Asian 9.74 Pct
East_Med 8.76 Pct
Red_Sea 0.48 Pct
South_Asian 0.10 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.59 Pct
Siberian 0.12 Pct
Amerindian 1.14 Pct
Oceanian 0.06 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
G25 (if you need for database)
B_scaled,0.133173,0.127957,0.047517,0.026809,0.030 775,0.014223,0.005405,0.003,0.000205,-0.003645,-0.005359,-0.001349,0.002081,0.011423,-0.005836,-0.006497,0.001304,0.000887,0.005908,0.007504,0.010 107,-0.004328,-0.000863,0.00723,-0.002994
B_unscaled,0.0117,0.0126,0.0126,0.0083,0.01,0.0051 ,0.0023,0.0013,0.0001,-0.002,-0.0033,-0.0009,0.0014,0.0083,-0.0043,-0.0049,0.001,0.0007,0.0047,0.006,0.0081,-0.0035,-0.0007,0.006,-0.0025
4. Tropolje (sample size=7)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropolje
Collected from: Livno municipality
Closer to Split and Herzegovina academic samples, than to Bosnian Croat ones. So it seem it was good decision to make them their own region.
North_Atlantic 26.02
Baltic 31.63
West_Med 15.82
West_Asian 9.63
East_Med 12.85
Red_Sea 1.56
South_Asian 0.37
East_Asian 0.49
Siberian 0.52
Amerindian 0.62
Oceanian 0.11
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Distance to: Tropolje
1.96657062 Bosniak
2.10264120 Croat_Split
2.30952434 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.32288614 Croat_Herzegovina
2.59695976 Serb_Krajina
2.75123609 Serb_B&H
2.77353565 Moldova_North
2.78612634 Croat_Bosnia
2.98041943 Szekely_Hungarian
3.30694723 Croat
3.65038097 Croat_BiH
3.80347210 Serb_Dalmatia
4.00578332 Serb
4.10344977 Serb_Serbia
4.50893557 Croat_Croatia
4.60603951 Croat_Zagreb
5.33804271 Csango_Hungarian
5.36812817 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.76744311 Romanian_Average
5.80840770 Moldova_Centre
5.91558112 Serb_Belgrade
5.94378899 Slovenian
6.05925738 Romania_Moldavia_average
6.51578852 Moldova_average
6.54348531 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
5. Bosnia (sample size=8)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_(region)
Collected from: Bugojno, and presumably Žepče municipality (academics)
North_Atlantic 27.15
Baltic 32.16
West_Med 15.64
West_Asian 7.09
East_Med 13.78
Red_Sea 1.68
South_Asian 0.71
East_Asian 0.03
Siberian 0.60
Amerindian 0.33
Oceanian 0.42
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Distance to: Bosnia
0.45825757 Croat_Bosnia
1.69958819 Croat_Split
2.39083667 Croat_Herzegovina
2.52019840 Croat
2.54342903 Croat_BiH
2.64866004 Szekely_Hungarian
2.78677233 Bosniak
3.15767319 Serb_Krajina
3.20125642 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.46707369 Serb_B&H
3.64802686 Croat_Zagreb
3.66766956 Moldova_North
3.88579464 Croat_Croatia
4.24185101 Serb_Dalmatia
4.72614007 Serb
4.76239436 Serb_Serbia
5.00491034 Slovenian
5.03179888 Csango_Hungarian
5.80939756 Hungarian_New
6.39845294 Serb_Belgrade
6.65114276 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.67020989 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
6.98111023 Romanian_Average
7.01280971 Romania_Moldavia_average
7.27778126 Moldova_Centre
6. Central Croatia (sample size=3)
North_Atlantic 29.92
Baltic 34.59
West_Med 13.64
West_Asian 7.37
East_Med 10.61
Red_Sea 0.85
South_Asian 0.69
East_Asian 0.1
Siberian 0.51
Amerindian 0.47
Oceanian 0.90
Northeast_African 0.1
Sub-Saharan 0.33
Closest to Zagreb_Croats, very nice and logical. Here we observe clear central European shift compared to regions I posted so far.
Distance to: Central_Croatia
2.12781578 Croat_Zagreb
2.15764067 Slovenian
2.24029016 Croat_Croatia
3.24214435 Croat
3.69521312 Hungarian_New
3.86445339 Hungarian_East
4.05500596 Slovak
4.22778680 Croat_BiH
4.27328913 Kaykavian_Croatian
4.36118103 Szekely_Hungarian
4.90812592 Moldova_North
5.31524223 Croat_Herzegovina
5.52875212 Croat_Bosnia
6.03999172 Croat_Split
6.06749536 Czech
6.15944803 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
6.80016912 Csango_Hungarian
7.21124095 Bosniak_Sarajevo
7.43263076 Bosniak
7.83484524 Hungarian_Transdanubia
8.01514816 Serb_Krajina
8.33134443 Serb_B&H
9.06681863 East_German
9.11146530 Serb_Dalmatia
9.13685394 Austrian
I forgot to add one sample from Bosnia, now updated, 8 instead of 7.:swl
For some regions I have only 1 person (Slavonia, Istria, Gorski kotar, North Adriatic) so no point to upload them. I hope one Croatian user send me few Istrian samples he has so I can make that region too.
7. Zagorje
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatsko_Zagorje
Reposting Kajkavian Croat average, only one I made no changes too since I didn't find any new samples from that region (made by Ph2ter)
Sample size =4
But, I will tell Lukasz to rename it to Croat_Zagorje, it's much more logical, most people don't know what Kajkavian dialect is and big part of Central Croatia is Kajkavian speaking as well.
North_Atlantic 32.40
Baltic 34.24
West_Med 12.44
West_Asian 7.93
East_Med 7.81
Red_Sea 1.49
South_Asian 1.32
East_Asian 0.75
Siberian 0.15
Amerindian 1.18
Oceanian 0.23
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.06
Distance to: Zagorje
2.39824936 Hungarian_East
3.87277235 Slovak
3.96145175 Czech
4.50783762 Hungarian_New
4.64249460 Slovenian
5.21583167 Croat_Croatia
5.64157779 Croat_Zagreb
6.30667900 East_German
6.48109559 German_east
6.66629582 Croat
7.02741062 Austrian
7.23055193 Croat_BiH
7.23390628 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.44094752 Szekely_Hungarian
8.15562996 Moldova_North
8.56684306 South_Polish
8.60556215 Csango_Hungarian
8.95866061 Croat_Herzegovina
9.12924422 Croat_Bosnia
9.21028773 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
9.39949467 Croat_Split
9.63261647 Ukrainian_Lviv
10.54176500 Bosniak_Sarajevo
10.74630169 Bosniak
10.95721680 Ukrainian
Actually scratch that, best to call it Zagorje :p
Could you run the distances with my results if it's not too off-topic? :)
North_Atlantic
26.15%
Baltic
32.13%
West Mediterranean
16.95%
West Asian
7.71%
East Mediterranean
14.16%
Red Sea
0.64%
South Asian
0.00%
East Asian
0.00%
Siberian
2.07%
Amerindian
0.01%
Oceanian
0.17%
Northeast African
0.00%
Sub-Saharan
0.00%
^^^Yeah, gladly :)
Distance to: Ford
2.35622580 Croat_Dalmatia
2.55203840 Croat_Herzegovina
2.66621455 Croat_Bosnia
2.82823266 Serb_B&H
2.83802748 Serb_Krajina
2.92225940 Bosniak
3.29335695 Croat_Tropolje
3.46740537 Croat_Lika-Senj
3.56029905 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.71513122 Serb_Dalmatia
4.01896753 Serb_Serbia
4.03448882 Serb
4.07775674 Moldova_North
4.11466888 Szekely_Hungarian
4.24898811 Croat
5.20864666 Croat_Zagreb
5.71715839 Serb_Belgrade
6.01182169 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.03582637 Romanian_Average
6.06657234 Csango_Hungarian
6.23329768 Romania_Moldavia_average
6.42294325 Moldova_Centre
6.43243447 Slovenian
6.48707947 Serb_Shopluk
6.79789673 Romania_Moldavia_South
Dalmatinac! :P
With sub-Dalmatian clusters added, for fun
Distance to: Ford
2.35622580 Croat_Dalmatia
2.39585058 Dalmatian_Hinterland
2.55203840 Croat_Herzegovina
2.60290223 Dalmatian_Coast
2.66621455 Croat_Bosnia
2.82823266 Serb_B&H
2.83802748 Serb_Krajina
2.92225940 Bosniak
3.29335695 Croat_Tropolje
3.43319094 Dalmatian_Islander
3.46740537 Croat_Lika-Senj
3.56029905 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.71513122 Serb_Dalmatia
4.01896753 Serb_Serbia
4.03448882 Serb
4.07775674 Moldova_North
4.11466888 Szekely_Hungarian
4.24898811 Croat
5.20864666 Croat_Zagreb
5.71715839 Serb_Belgrade
6.01182169 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.03582637 Romanian_Average
6.06657234 Csango_Hungarian
6.23329768 Romania_Moldavia_average
6.42294325 Moldova_Centre
Closest to Vlaji from Dalmatian groups hehe.
Tomorrow I will make average for mixed Dalmatian/BiH Croats (most are 50/50 but not all) to see how they compare, really many of such samples, but they won't be put on Vahaduo
Now I will make Croat_Croatia, BiH_Croat and general Croat average and than will send them to Lukas.
:thumb001:
Croat_BiH,26.09,32.1,15.07,8.41,13.63,1.48,0.49,0. 23,0.56,0.48,0.29,0.00,0.00
Croat_Croatia,28.59,33.3,14.54,7.68.11.28,1.41,0.6 3,0.32,0.47,0.62,0.48,0.11,0.15
Croat,28.17,33.10,14.63,7.80,11.67,1.42,0.60,0.20, 0.48,0.59,0.45,0.09,0.12
Now when I am finished, I ran some tests :)
Distance to: Feiichy_Father
2.73214202 Croat
2.85807628 Croat_Croatia
3.11486757 Croat_Zagreb
3.25670078 Szekely_Hungarian
3.55014084 Croat_Bosnia
3.76769160 Croat_BiH
3.82703541 Croat_Tropolje
3.94295561 Slovenian
3.98872160 Croat_Lika-Senj
4.16702532 Moldova_North
4.23561094 Hungarian
4.37495143 Croat_Central_Croatia
4.62906038 Croat_Dalmatia
4.68370580 Croat_Herzegovina
4.78144330 Bosniak
5.02979125 Serb_Krajina
5.15425352 Bosniak_Sarajevo
5.43041435 Serb_Croatia
5.54780137 Serb_BiH
5.65732269 Csango_Hungarian
5.89065361 Serb_Dalmatia
6.44154485 Serb
6.69681267 Serb_Serbia
6.84916053 Hungarian_East
7.19919440 Croat_Zagorje
Target: Feiichy_Father
Distance: 1.7868% / 1.78679169 | ADC: 0.25x
45.6 Croat_Zagreb
24.0 Croat_Tropolje
16.2 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.2 Serb_Dalmatia
6.4 Croat_Dalmatia
0.6 Dai
Target: Feiichy_Father
Distance: 2.1079% / 2.10785737 | ADC: 0.5x
45.8 Croat_Zagreb
40.0 Croat_Tropolje
12.4 Hungarian_Transdanubia
1.8 Croat_Bosnia
Target: Feiichy_Father
Distance: 2.7299% / 2.72993409 | ADC: 1x
99.8 Croat
0.2 Croat_Tropolje
Me :) Ofcourse less tight fit/distance than father. Croat, Bosniak and Serb all bolded.
Distance to: Feiichy
4.74727290 Croat_Croatia
4.75888632 Slovenian
4.84778300 Croat_Zagreb
4.88866035 Croat
5.19911531 Hungarian
5.29420438 Croat_Central_Croatia
5.41770247 Moldova_North
5.63073707 Croat_Tropolje
5.68896300 Szekely_Hungarian
6.39701493 Croat_Zagorje
6.49662220 Croat_BiH
6.78686231 Croat_Bosnia
6.87195023 Croat_Lika-Senj
6.94197378 Hungarian_East
7.07434803 Croat_Dalmatia
7.30030821 Croat_Herzegovina
7.36825624 Bosniak
7.43570441 Csango_Hungarian
7.52299825 Bosniak_Sarajevo
7.62543114 Serb_Krajina
7.82170429 Slovak
7.89697410 Serb_Croatia
8.09140902 Serb_BiH
8.18067234 Hungarian_Transdanubia
8.25642780 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
Target: Feiichy
Distance: 2.5429% / 2.54294175 | ADC: 0.25x
80.4 Slovenian
11.2 East_German
6.8 North_Ossetian
1.0 Welsh
0.6 Serb_North-Macedonia
Target: Feiichy
Distance: 3.4213% / 3.42131443 | ADC: 0.5x
68.6 Slovenian
19.0 Croat_Tropolje
6.4 Croat_Zagorje
4.8 Romanian_Oltenia
1.2 Ossetian
Target: Feiichy
Distance: 4.2023% / 4.20227582 | ADC: 1x
64.0 Slovenian
23.8 Croat_Tropolje
12.2 Hungarian
Former member Hrvoje. I bolded all his ethnicities (Croatian , Slovenian and Czech)
Distance to: Hrvoje
4.40794737 Hungarian
5.07342094 Croat_Zagorje
5.20522814 Croat_Croatia
5.34359430 Croat_Central_Croatia
5.41980090 Slovenian
5.43737069 Croat
5.46547345 Croat_Zagreb
6.19056540 Szekely_Hungarian
6.21292202 Hungarian_East
6.57380407 Moldova_North
6.74225482 Croat_Tropolje
7.34063349 Croat_BiH
7.34953060 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.43976478 Csango_Hungarian
7.50828209 Croat_Lika-Senj
7.65530535 Croat_Bosnia
7.67504424 Slovak
8.33054620 Bosniak
8.40792618 Bosniak_Sarajevo
8.43158941 Croat_Herzegovina
8.49270275 Croat_Dalmatia
8.64273684 Czech
8.78217513 Serb_Krajina
9.06840670 East_German
9.10645925 Serb_Croatia
Target: Hrvoje
Distance: 1.6994% / 1.69941496 | ADC: 0.25x
71.0 Croat_Zagorje
16.4 Croat_Tropolje
7.0 Swiss_French
4.4 Chechen
1.2 Georgian
Target: Hrvoje
Distance: 2.6126% / 2.61259759 | ADC: 0.5x
46.6 Croat_Zagorje
34.2 Hungarian
14.4 Croat_Tropolje
2.4 Tabassaran
2.0 Romanian_Oltenia
0.4 Chechen
Target: Hrvoje
Distance: 4.1554% / 4.15541071 | ADC: 1x
79.2 Hungarian
20.0 Croat_Zagorje
0.8 Croat_Tropolje
Stears, my love :) I bolded both Hungarian and Croatian, since he is 1/8 Croat
Distance to: Stears
4.75996849 Szekely_Hungarian
4.81271233 Hungarian
4.88169028 Moldova_North
4.95523965 Croat
5.00167972 Croat_Croatia
5.43724195 Croat_Tropolje
5.52621027 Croat_Zagreb
5.75388564 Croat_Central_Croatia
5.76681021 Csango_Hungarian
5.81068843 Croat_BiH
6.14232041 Croat_Lika-Senj
6.14769519 Slovenian
6.23872391 Bosniak_Sarajevo
6.56428976 Croat_Bosnia
6.68739112 Bosniak
6.78587504 Croat_Herzegovina
6.90924019 Croat_Zagorje
7.29708161 Croat_Dalmatia
7.31367213 Serb_Krajina
7.45389831 Hungarian_East
7.49862654 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
7.52362944 Serb_Croatia
7.76108884 Serb_BiH
8.00817083 Serb_Dalmatia
8.48111431 Serb
Target: Stears
Distance: 1.1572% / 1.15718862 | ADC: 0.25x
56.4 Hungarian
23.6 Moldova_North
7.8 Yagnobi
5.6 Croat_Central_Croatia
5.4 Croat_Zagorje
1.2 Tatar
Target: Stears
Distance: 1.9495% / 1.94947916 | ADC: 0.5x
60.8 Hungarian
34.0 Moldova_North
5.2 Yagnobi
Target: Stears
Distance: 3.8062% / 3.80617450 | ADC: 1x
51.8 Hungarian
48.2 Moldova_North
^^^^It models Stears as 11% Croat on 0.25X, he is 12.5% in reality, amazing precision! :eek::thumb001:
Distance to: Croat
0.64000000 Croat_Croatia
1.17149477 Croat_Zagreb
1.85297059 Szekely_Hungarian
2.54682155 Croat_Lika-Senj
2.73431874 Slovenian
2.79393987 Moldova_North
2.84856104 Croat_Bosnia
2.85940553 Croat_Central_Croatia
3.13319326 Croat_BiH
3.31853884 Bosniak_Tuzla
3.63840624 Croat_Tropolje
3.94953162 Hungarian
4.20220180 Croat_Herzegovina
4.59540452 Bosniak_Sarajevo
4.66130883 Bosniak
4.80068745 Croat_Dalmatia
4.97902601 Csango_Hungarian
5.26991461 Serb_Krajina
5.56788111 Serb_B&H
5.62501556 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
5.70673287 Serb_Croatia
6.13002447 Hungarian_East
6.34413115 Croat_Zagorje
6.44644088 Serb_Dalmatia
6.52759205 Slovak
Distance to: Croat_BiH
1.36521061 Croat_Herzegovina
1.69038457 Croat_Lika-Senj
1.73985632 Croat_Tropolje
1.78518907 Bosniak
1.84021738 Croat_Bosnia
1.86198890 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.48419001 Szekely_Hungarian
2.57186703 Croat_Dalmatia
2.62436659 Serb_Krajina
2.73031134 Serb_B&H
2.79717715 Moldova_North
2.93150132 Serb_Croatia
3.13319326 Croat
3.76240615 Serb_Dalmatia
3.76261877 Croat_Croatia
4.04610924 Serb_Serbia
4.16799712 Serb
4.18194931 Croat_Zagreb
4.59580243 Bosniak_Tuzla
5.21035507 Csango_Hungarian
5.58047489 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.72707595 Slovenian
5.83637730 Croat_Central_Croatia
5.92548732 Serb_Belgrade
6.06122925 Moldova_Centre
Distance to: Croat_Croatia
0.64000000 Croat
0.71274119 Croat_Zagreb
2.18297611 Slovenian
2.26567871 Szekely_Hungarian
2.32090500 Croat_Central_Croatia
3.09481825 Croat_Lika-Senj
3.17652326 Moldova_North
3.36501114 Bosniak_Tuzla
3.38879034 Croat_Bosnia
3.60893336 Hungarian
3.76261877 Croat_BiH
4.19435335 Croat_Tropolje
4.81868239 Croat_Herzegovina
5.14564865 Csango_Hungarian
5.18913313 Bosniak_Sarajevo
5.26951611 Bosniak
5.35981343 Croat_Dalmatia
5.53546746 Hungarian_East
5.73450957 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
5.75145199 Croat_Zagorje
5.85650066 Serb_Krajina
5.96041399 Slovak
6.17058344 Serb_B&H
6.30258677 Serb_Croatia
7.02989331 Serb_Dalmatia
K13...
Thank you, I just noticed your post. Tomorrow will make models for you :)
Ljubic
04-18-2020, 09:45 AM
Croat from Northeast-Bosnia
Population
North_Atlantic 22.96 Pct
Baltic 36.43 Pct
West_Med 13.75 Pct
West_Asian 7.74 Pct
East_Med 14.87 Pct
Red_Sea 2.02 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.45 Pct
Siberian 1.49 Pct
Amerindian 0.29 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Mostar (Ljubic ive already posted)
Population
North_Atlantic 29.97 Pct
Baltic 32.70 Pct
West_Med 13.33 Pct
West_Asian 5.87 Pct
East_Med 12.43 Pct
Red_Sea 2.79 Pct
South_Asian 1.14 Pct
East_Asian 0.39 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.27 Pct
Oceanian 1.12 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Capljina Area 1
Population
North_Atlantic 24.74 Pct
Baltic 31.98 Pct
West_Med 14.99 Pct
West_Asian 9.23 Pct
East_Med 16.08 Pct
Red_Sea 0.36 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.16 Pct
Siberian 1.34 Pct
Amerindian 1.13 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Capljina Area 2
Population
North_Atlantic 20.78 Pct
Baltic 34.37 Pct
West_Med 14.88 Pct
West_Asian 9.93 Pct
East_Med 18.23 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.14 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.75 Pct
Amerindian 0.76 Pct
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Capljina Area 3
Population
North_Atlantic 27.89 Pct
Baltic 29.48 Pct
West_Med 16.13 Pct
West_Asian 7.71 Pct
East_Med 16.87 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.65 Pct
Amerindian 0.83 Pct
Oceanian 0.36 Pct
Northeast_African 0.07 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
Croat Greatuncle from Tomislavgrad
Population
North_Atlantic 27.11 Pct
Baltic 31.59 Pct
West_Med 16.43 Pct
West_Asian 5.42 Pct
East_Med 16.40 Pct
Red_Sea 0.76 Pct
South_Asian 0.43 Pct
East_Asian 0.91 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.82 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.12 Pct
Croat from Lika
Population
North_Atlantic 29.21 Pct
Baltic 33.79 Pct
West_Med 14.03 Pct
West_Asian 6.93 Pct
East_Med 13.13 Pct
Red_Sea 0.79 Pct
South_Asian 0.28 Pct
East_Asian 0.33 Pct
Siberian 0.97 Pct
Amerindian 0.25 Pct
Oceanian 0.28 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Hercegovina
Population
North_Atlantic 22.19 Pct
Baltic 35.64 Pct
West_Med 16.03 Pct
West_Asian 7.99 Pct
East_Med 14.58 Pct
Red_Sea 0.63 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.92 Pct
Siberian 0.38 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.85 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.79 Pct
MoroLP
04-18-2020, 12:50 PM
For some regions I have only 1 person (Slavonia, Istria, Gorski kotar, North Adriatic) so no point to upload them. I hope one Croatian user send me few Istrian samples he has so I can make that region too.
Done. I presume it is very difficult to have a reliable average for Istria. It varies depending on the part of Istria, different ethnic-cultural mixtures, historical migrations etc., and this is by excluding migrations and mixed marriages since the 1940s. I think that average will change drastically with every new sample.
Croat K13 regional and new national averages will be also included on vahaduo source list? That would be great, you done an excellent job.
vbnetkhio
04-18-2020, 02:23 PM
3. Lika-Senj (sample size=12)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika-Senj_County
Collected from: Perušić, Senj municipalities and northern part of Pag Island
North_Atlantic 26.27
Baltic 32.93
West_Med 15.49
West_Asian 7.27
East_Med 13.14
Red_Sea 1.9
South_Asian 0.34
East_Asian 0.29
Siberian 0.60
Amerindian 0.34
Oceanian 0.40
Northeast_African 0.11
Sub-Saharan 0.11
Closest to Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina which makes sense.
Distance to: Lika-Senj
1.73764208 Croat_Bosnia
1.80706945 Croat_Herzegovina
2.05450724 Szekely_Hungarian
2.33970084 Croat
2.64726274 Croat_Split
2.68521880 Moldova_North
3.00791002 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.10322111 Croat_BiH
3.21264688 Bosniak
3.40956009 Croat_Zagreb
3.70035133 Croat_Croatia
3.99131557 Serb_B&H
4.00648225 Serb_Krajina
4.96904417 Csango_Hungarian
5.01418264 Slovenian
5.17303586 Serb_Dalmatia
5.27724360 Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes
5.39831455 Serb_Serbia
5.55146827 Serb
5.91715303 Hungarian_New
6.99254603 Romania_Moldavia_North
7.22865133 Serb_Belgrade
7.29403181 Moldova_Centre
7.60453154 Romanian_Average
7.64227060 Romania_Moldavia_average
all south Croat averages are very similar.. maybe averaging by genetic groups is better after all
Lucas
04-18-2020, 04:49 PM
I added Croat averages to K13 Updated http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k13-vahaduo.htm
vbnetkhio
04-18-2020, 05:02 PM
I added Croat averages to K13 Updated http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k13-vahaduo.htm
you deleted the Morlach and Slavic south Croats?
Hey guys, I am quite busy at the moment but will try to answer PMs and reply here.
My Croatian averages were weighted to be most realistic possible, for example in total Croat average I included separately Croatian regions + mean average of BiH Croats.
I didn't add each BiH region separetly, but their average because BiH Croats are much less numerous than Croatia Croats and it would make them overrepresented.
So my national averages are made from regional averages, not from each individual result, because than some regions would be extremely overrepresentaed.
Croat_BiH = Tropolje+Herzegovina+Bosnia averages
Croat_Croatia = Zagreb+Zagorje+Central Croatia+Lika-Senj+Dalmatia averages
Croat = Zagreb + Lika-Senj + Dalmatia + Zagorje + Central Croatia + Croat_BiH averages
you deleted the Morlach and Slavic south Croats?
I asked him too. Morlach average is obsolete, because not all people in there are unmixed, I found that out later.
These samples were cherrypicked (Slavic cluster too)
Bosniak Tuzla is too, it includes specific few Bosniaks who all score same type of results and doesn't represent how average Bosniaks from there score ofcourse.
That's why I always remove it in my runs.
K13
:)
Distance to: Bessarion
3.55025351 Hungarian
4.72911197 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.73823143 Croat_Croatia
5.82176090 Croat
6.10909977 Croat_Zagreb
6.12676913 Croat_Central_Croatia
6.32324284 Szekely_Hungarian
6.39854105 Slovenian
6.48832028 Hungarian_East
6.80173507 Croat_Bosnia
6.83046851 Croat_Zagorje
6.85547956 Csango_Gymes
7.04613369 Croat_BiH
7.15785582 Croat_Tropolje
7.25290287 Croat_Lika-Senj
7.33797230 Serbian_Bosnia
7.46277428 Austrian
7.70158425 Moldova_North
7.85049680 Bosniak
8.04870797 Serb_Krajina
8.23479812 Croat_Dalmatia
8.25105908 Bosniak_Sarajevo
8.27340317 Croat_Herzegovina
8.34005396 Serb_Dalmatia
8.45358504 Serb_Croatia
Target: Bessarion
Distance: 1.7552% / 1.75522746 | ADC: 0.25x
49.6 Hungarian_Transdanubia
17.8 Croat_Central_Croatia
16.6 Croat_Zagorje
9.4 Bulgarian_Burgas
6.2 Turk_Targovishte
0.4 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
Target: Bessarion
Distance: 2.3981% / 2.39813029 | ADC: 0.5x
60.2 Hungarian_Transdanubia
31.8 Croat
8.0 Bulgarian_Burgas
Target: Bessarion
Distance: 3.2481% / 3.24807361 | ADC: 1x
66.2 Hungarian_Transdanubia
33.8 Croat
Done. I presume it is very difficult to have a reliable average for Istria. It varies depending on the part of Istria, different ethnic-cultural mixtures, historical migrations etc., and this is by excluding migrations and mixed marriages since the 1940s. I think that average will change drastically with every new sample.
Croat K13 regional and new national averages will be also included on vahaduo source list? That would be great, you done an excellent job.
Thanks :)
I'll make Istrian average, update slightly those I have with few new samples and ofcourse add Istrians to Croat and Croat_Croatia averages.
Maybe I should wait until next week end to send to Lucas, to see how many more we will get.
I think very few, we already collected most that are available in my opinion.
Those I made are now on updated Vahaduo, time to celebrate :P
Croat from Northeast-Bosnia
Population
North_Atlantic 22.96 Pct
Baltic 36.43 Pct
West_Med 13.75 Pct
West_Asian 7.74 Pct
East_Med 14.87 Pct
Red_Sea 2.02 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.45 Pct
Siberian 1.49 Pct
Amerindian 0.29 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Mostar (Ljubic ive already posted)
Population
North_Atlantic 29.97 Pct
Baltic 32.70 Pct
West_Med 13.33 Pct
West_Asian 5.87 Pct
East_Med 12.43 Pct
Red_Sea 2.79 Pct
South_Asian 1.14 Pct
East_Asian 0.39 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.27 Pct
Oceanian 1.12 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Capljina Area 1
Population
North_Atlantic 24.74 Pct
Baltic 31.98 Pct
West_Med 14.99 Pct
West_Asian 9.23 Pct
East_Med 16.08 Pct
Red_Sea 0.36 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.16 Pct
Siberian 1.34 Pct
Amerindian 1.13 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Capljina Area 2
Population
North_Atlantic 20.78 Pct
Baltic 34.37 Pct
West_Med 14.88 Pct
West_Asian 9.93 Pct
East_Med 18.23 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.14 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.75 Pct
Amerindian 0.76 Pct
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Capljina Area 3
Population
North_Atlantic 27.89 Pct
Baltic 29.48 Pct
West_Med 16.13 Pct
West_Asian 7.71 Pct
East_Med 16.87 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.65 Pct
Amerindian 0.83 Pct
Oceanian 0.36 Pct
Northeast_African 0.07 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
Croat Greatuncle from Tomislavgrad
Population
North_Atlantic 27.11 Pct
Baltic 31.59 Pct
West_Med 16.43 Pct
West_Asian 5.42 Pct
East_Med 16.40 Pct
Red_Sea 0.76 Pct
South_Asian 0.43 Pct
East_Asian 0.91 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.82 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.12 Pct
Croat from Lika
Population
North_Atlantic 29.21 Pct
Baltic 33.79 Pct
West_Med 14.03 Pct
West_Asian 6.93 Pct
East_Med 13.13 Pct
Red_Sea 0.79 Pct
South_Asian 0.28 Pct
East_Asian 0.33 Pct
Siberian 0.97 Pct
Amerindian 0.25 Pct
Oceanian 0.28 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Croat from Hercegovina
Population
North_Atlantic 22.19 Pct
Baltic 35.64 Pct
West_Med 16.03 Pct
West_Asian 7.99 Pct
East_Med 14.58 Pct
Red_Sea 0.63 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.92 Pct
Siberian 0.38 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.85 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.79 Pct
Thanks!
I have these 3 from Čapljina and that one from Herzegovina, don't have Lika, Tomislavgrad, NE Bosnia, and Mostar. They will be added.
Is person half NE Bosnia half Herzegovina you posted in the past from your family?
This one:23.37,31.99,15.85,9.54,13.45,3.45,0.64,0.00,0. 75,0.00,0.06,0.06,0.83
Ljubic
04-19-2020, 07:47 AM
Thanks!
I have these 3 from Čapljina and that one from Herzegovina, don't have Lika, Tomislavgrad, NE Bosnia, and Mostar. They will be added.
Is person half NE Bosnia half Herzegovina you posted in the past from your family?
This one:23.37,31.99,15.85,9.54,13.45,3.45,0.64,0.00,0. 75,0.00,0.06,0.06,0.83
Thats my father 23andMe V3 restult and he cant be a valid sample because he is 1/4 Serbian. Also did you match these 3 from Capljina?
Bessarion
04-19-2020, 08:02 AM
:)
Distance to: Bessarion
3.55025351 Hungarian
4.72911197 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.73823143 Croat_Croatia
5.82176090 Croat
6.10909977 Croat_Zagreb
6.12676913 Croat_Central_Croatia
6.32324284 Szekely_Hungarian
6.39854105 Slovenian
6.48832028 Hungarian_East
6.80173507 Croat_Bosnia
6.83046851 Croat_Zagorje
6.85547956 Csango_Gymes
7.04613369 Croat_BiH
7.15785582 Croat_Tropolje
7.25290287 Croat_Lika-Senj
7.33797230 Serbian_Bosnia
7.46277428 Austrian
7.70158425 Moldova_North
7.85049680 Bosniak
8.04870797 Serb_Krajina
8.23479812 Croat_Dalmatia
8.25105908 Bosniak_Sarajevo
8.27340317 Croat_Herzegovina
8.34005396 Serb_Dalmatia
8.45358504 Serb_Croatia
Target: Bessarion
Distance: 1.7552% / 1.75522746 | ADC: 0.25x
49.6 Hungarian_Transdanubia
17.8 Croat_Central_Croatia
16.6 Croat_Zagorje
9.4 Bulgarian_Burgas
6.2 Turk_Targovishte
0.4 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
Target: Bessarion
Distance: 2.3981% / 2.39813029 | ADC: 0.5x
60.2 Hungarian_Transdanubia
31.8 Croat
8.0 Bulgarian_Burgas
Target: Bessarion
Distance: 3.2481% / 3.24807361 | ADC: 1x
66.2 Hungarian_Transdanubia
33.8 Croat
Thanks a lot...
As usual, when calculating with regional data/input getting, as a rule, a Hungarian, which is pretty strong as I see in comparison to other distances (distance).
How do you comment that in almost all tests Hungarians have a very high NW European component?
To me is interestingly from which historical source Croats from Zagorje get also high Northern part. Is it from some more recent AH migration or it is a simple ancient Celtic substrate because this area was within the reach of Hallstatt culture?
K13
Population
North_Atlantic 32.03 Pct
Baltic 29.73 Pct
West_Med 12.69 Pct
West_Asian 9.03 Pct
East_Med 12.57 Pct
Red_Sea 0.74 Pct
South_Asian 0.19 Pct
East_Asian 0.74 Pct
Siberian 0.78 Pct
Amerindian 1.27 Pct
Oceanian 0.22 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
K15
Population
North_Sea 25.40 Pct
Atlantic 18.20 Pct
Baltic 17.76 Pct
Eastern_Euro 9.24 Pct
West_Med 8.40 Pct
West_Asian 9.74 Pct
East_Med 8.76 Pct
Red_Sea 0.48 Pct
South_Asian 0.10 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.59 Pct
Siberian 0.12 Pct
Amerindian 1.14 Pct
Oceanian 0.06 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
G25 (if you need for database)
B_scaled,0.133173,0.127957,0.047517,0.026809,0.030 775,0.014223,0.005405,0.003,0.000205,-0.003645,-0.005359,-0.001349,0.002081,0.011423,-0.005836,-0.006497,0.001304,0.000887,0.005908,0.007504,0.010 107,-0.004328,-0.000863,0.00723,-0.002994
B_unscaled,0.0117,0.0126,0.0126,0.0083,0.01,0.0051 ,0.0023,0.0013,0.0001,-0.002,-0.0033,-0.0009,0.0014,0.0083,-0.0043,-0.0049,0.001,0.0007,0.0047,0.006,0.0081,-0.0035,-0.0007,0.006,-0.0025
Can you please share the Dodecad K12b components?
Bessarion
04-19-2020, 10:08 AM
Can you please share the Dodecad K12b components?
Here...
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_European 42.23
2 Atlantic_Med 27.63
3 Caucasus 18.76
4 Gedrosia 5.61
5 Southwest_Asian 3.24
6 East_Asian 1.29
Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarians_Behar @ 6.957142
2 German_Dodecad @ 12.339757
3 Romanians_Behar @ 12.510336
4 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 14.684443
5 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 15.072104
6 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad @ 17.618778
7 Dutch_Dodecad @ 19.116018
8 French_Dodecad @ 20.449978
9 French_HGDP @ 20.744167
10 Kent_1000Genomes @ 21.686558
11 CEU30_1000Genomes @ 21.733912
12 English_Dodecad @ 21.966000
13 British_Isles_Dodecad @ 23.132723
14 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 23.489594
15 Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 23.628162
16 Polish_Dodecad @ 23.668234
17 Swedish_Dodecad @ 23.680651
18 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 23.918798
19 Cornwall_1000Genomes @ 24.268002
20 Norwegian_Dodecad @ 24.357216
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_Dodecad +50% Romanians_Behar @ 1.843488
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian_Behar +25% Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes +25% Turkish_Dodecad @ 1.216997
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Lithuanian_Dodecad + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes + Turkish_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 1.211353
2 Belorussian_Behar + Belorussian_Behar + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes + Turkish_Dodecad @ 1.216997
3 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_Dodecad @ 1.232883
4 Belorussian_Behar + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes + Russian_B_Behar + Turkish_Dodecad @ 1.255145
5 Argyll_1000Genomes + Bulgarian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.263436
6 Argyll_1000Genomes + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.316979
7 CEU30_1000Genomes + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.328304
8 Bulgarian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Orkney_1000Genomes + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.345327
9 English_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.351310
10 Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_Dodecad @ 1.361343
11 Belorussian_Behar + Belorussian_Behar + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes + Turks_Behar @ 1.371008
12 Bulgarian_Dodecad + CEU30_1000Genomes + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.380990
13 Bulgarian_Dodecad + English_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.393886
14 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.396001
15 Bulgarian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.397944
16 Kent_1000Genomes + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.403228
17 Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.408723
18 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Irish_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.416820
19 Argyll_1000Genomes + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.421489
20 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad @ 1.435555
Here...
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_European 42.23
2 Atlantic_Med 27.63
3 Caucasus 18.76
4 Gedrosia 5.61
5 Southwest_Asian 3.24
6 East_Asian 1.29
Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarians_Behar @ 6.957142
2 German_Dodecad @ 12.339757
3 Romanians_Behar @ 12.510336
4 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 14.684443
5 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 15.072104
6 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad @ 17.618778
7 Dutch_Dodecad @ 19.116018
8 French_Dodecad @ 20.449978
9 French_HGDP @ 20.744167
10 Kent_1000Genomes @ 21.686558
11 CEU30_1000Genomes @ 21.733912
12 English_Dodecad @ 21.966000
13 British_Isles_Dodecad @ 23.132723
14 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 23.489594
15 Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 23.628162
16 Polish_Dodecad @ 23.668234
17 Swedish_Dodecad @ 23.680651
18 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 23.918798
19 Cornwall_1000Genomes @ 24.268002
20 Norwegian_Dodecad @ 24.357216
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_Dodecad +50% Romanians_Behar @ 1.843488
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian_Behar +25% Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes +25% Turkish_Dodecad @ 1.216997
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Lithuanian_Dodecad + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes + Turkish_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 1.211353
2 Belorussian_Behar + Belorussian_Behar + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes + Turkish_Dodecad @ 1.216997
3 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_Dodecad @ 1.232883
4 Belorussian_Behar + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes + Russian_B_Behar + Turkish_Dodecad @ 1.255145
5 Argyll_1000Genomes + Bulgarian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.263436
6 Argyll_1000Genomes + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.316979
7 CEU30_1000Genomes + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.328304
8 Bulgarian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Orkney_1000Genomes + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.345327
9 English_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.351310
10 Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_Dodecad @ 1.361343
11 Belorussian_Behar + Belorussian_Behar + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes + Turks_Behar @ 1.371008
12 Bulgarian_Dodecad + CEU30_1000Genomes + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.380990
13 Bulgarian_Dodecad + English_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.393886
14 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.396001
15 Bulgarian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.397944
16 Kent_1000Genomes + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.403228
17 Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.408723
18 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Irish_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.416820
19 Argyll_1000Genomes + O_Italian_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 1.421489
20 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad @ 1.435555
Thanks but I asked you only for the components like you did with K13 and K15.
K13
Population
North_Atlantic 32.03 Pct
Baltic 29.73 Pct
West_Med 12.69 Pct
West_Asian 9.03 Pct
East_Med 12.57 Pct
Red_Sea 0.74 Pct
South_Asian 0.19 Pct
East_Asian 0.74 Pct
Siberian 0.78 Pct
Amerindian 1.27 Pct
Oceanian 0.22 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
K15
Population
North_Sea 25.40 Pct
Atlantic 18.20 Pct
Baltic 17.76 Pct
Eastern_Euro 9.24 Pct
West_Med 8.40 Pct
West_Asian 9.74 Pct
East_Med 8.76 Pct
Red_Sea 0.48 Pct
South_Asian 0.10 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.59 Pct
Siberian 0.12 Pct
Amerindian 1.14 Pct
Oceanian 0.06 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -
Thats my father 23andMe V3 restult and he cant be a valid sample because he is 1/4 Serbian. Also did you match these 3 from Capljina?
Thanks, I suspected that and that's why I asked.
My father matches them.
Thanks a lot...
As usual, when calculating with regional data/input getting, as a rule, a Hungarian, which is pretty strong as I see in comparison to other distances (distance).
How do you comment that in almost all tests Hungarians have a very high NW European component?
To me is interestingly from which historical source Croats from Zagorje get also high Northern part. Is it from some more recent AH migration or it is a simple ancient Celtic substrate because this area was within the reach of Hallstatt culture?
There was continuous settlement of Germanic tribes in Carpathian Basin trough history (some ever accompanied conquering tribes, also Goths, Gepids, medieval German and Dutch settlers, later Danube Swabians, Saxons in Transylvania). Also Celts were present in the era.
NW Croats have ancient Celtic substrate, they are very unmixed rural Croats for the most part.
Celine
04-19-2020, 02:14 PM
There was continuous settlement of Germanic tribes in Carpathian Basin trough history (some ever accompanied conquering tribes, also Goths, Gepids, medieval German and Dutch settlers, later Danube Swabians, Saxons in Transylvania). Also Celts were present in the era.
NW Croats have ancient Celtic substrate, they are very unmixed rural Croats for the most part.
#proud
#proud
Feiichy is a lighter girl compared to you :p
MoroLP
04-21-2020, 07:22 PM
What is the current regional average, distance, and single for the region of Istria and what is the sample size (4)?
If am not mistaken, we have four samples, three from Southwestern Chakavian-Shtokavian ikavian dialect, and one from Northern Chakavian ekavian dialect.
^^^^
8. Istria (sample size=4)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria
North_Atlantic 25.69
Baltic 30.12
West_Med 16.73
West_Asian 9.05
East_Med 14.82
Red_Sea 1.68
South_Asian 0.21
East_Asian 0.47
Siberian 0.15
Amerindian 0.11
Oceanian 0.33
Northeast_African 0.08
Sub-Saharan 0.02
Distance to: Croat_Istria
1.28316016 Serb_B&H
1.37804209 Serb
1.59818647 Bosniak
1.66069263 Serb_Croatia
1.83125640 Serb_Serbia
2.38323310 Croat_Dalmatia
2.60474567 Croat_Herzegovina
2.70630301 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.96123285 Croat_BiH
3.14254674 Croat_Tropolje
3.31495098 Serb_Belgrade
3.47047547 Romania_Moldavia_North
3.76142260 Croat_Bosnia
3.85048049 Romania_Moldavia_average
3.98865892 Moldova_Centre
4.24976470 Croat_Lika-Senj
4.47299676 Moldova_average
4.72082620 Romania_Moldavia_South
4.91365444 Bulgarian_Pleven
5.11121316 Szekely_Hungarian
5.27978219 Romanian_Transylvania
5.28038824 Moldova_North
5.88161542 Croat
6.17460120 Montenegrin
6.33160327 Bosniak_Sandzak
Southern most shifted Croat average so far, and quite heterogenous even on small sample size thus reflecting complex demographic history of Istrian peninsula :)
MoroLP
04-22-2020, 02:15 PM
^^^^
8. Istria (sample size=4)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria
North_Atlantic 25.69
Baltic 30.12
West_Med 16.73
West_Asian 9.05
East_Med 14.82
Red_Sea 1.68
South_Asian 0.21
East_Asian 0.47
Siberian 0.15
Amerindian 0.11
Oceanian 0.33
Northeast_African 0.08
Sub-Saharan 0.02
Distance to: Croat_Istria
1.28316016 Serb_B&H
1.37804209 Serb
1.59818647 Bosniak
1.66069263 Serb_Croatia
1.83125640 Serb_Serbia
2.38323310 Croat_Dalmatia
2.60474567 Croat_Herzegovina
2.70630301 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.96123285 Croat_BiH
3.14254674 Croat_Tropolje
3.31495098 Serb_Belgrade
3.47047547 Romania_Moldavia_North
3.76142260 Croat_Bosnia
3.85048049 Romania_Moldavia_average
3.98865892 Moldova_Centre
4.24976470 Croat_Lika-Senj
4.47299676 Moldova_average
4.72082620 Romania_Moldavia_South
4.91365444 Bulgarian_Pleven
5.11121316 Szekely_Hungarian
5.27978219 Romanian_Transylvania
5.28038824 Moldova_North
5.88161542 Croat
6.17460120 Montenegrin
6.33160327 Bosniak_Sandzak
Southern most shifted Croat average so far, and quite heterogenous even on small sample size thus reflecting complex demographic history of Istrian peninsula :)
Thank you. From Istrapedia, translated:
"Along with the devastation of cities and villages, disturbances in the demographic sense were also plague epidemics (in the 14th century 12 times, in the 14th century 14 times, and in the 16th century 16 times), and then from the end of the 15th century and endemic malaria in parts of cities on the west coast (Pula, Porec, Novigrad, Piran) and natural disasters (harsh and long winters, hailstorms and strong summer storms) that at the end of the 15th century and during the 16th century caused troubles and years of famine. The Austrian and Venetian authorities therefore, during the 15th century and the 16th century persistently colonized the desolate parts of Istria with the population mostly coming from areas suffering from Ottoman military pressure (mostly from Croatia, Dalmatia, Herzegovina and Bosnia, and to a lesser extent from Montenegro, Albania and the Venetian heritage of the Byzantine ruin - eg. Nauplion, Malvasia and Cyprus) or smaller groups and individuals from Italy (Veneto and Friuli) and Austrian countries (Carnia and Carniola). Just as the Venetian authorities attracted the settlers by giving them privileges, so did the Austrian archdukees lure them with the privileges of being released from feudal benefits for a fixed period."
As said it is observed close connection with Dalmatia, Herzegovina and Bosnia, and due to other ethnicities contribution (Montenegrin, Albanian, North and Southern Italian) it is expected to be diverse and additionally Southern shifted. As well, different dialects and villages & municipalities most probably have different averages.
NA ranges from 21 to almost 32 while Baltic from almost 25 to 35, and this is only on a biased and localized sample size of 4. Incredible.
Here is average of Croats who are regional mix of Dalmatia and BiH I made, it won't be added to Vahaduo. Sample size 6.
Croat_Dalmatia/BiH_Mix,27.61,29.78,17.12,8.32,13.05,2.15,0.11,0.1 4,0.26,0.94,0.44,0.00,0.00
Distance to: Croat_Dalmatia/BiH_Mix
2.69681293 Croat_Dalmatia
3.18824403 Serb_B&H
3.19590363 Croat_Tropolje
3.24983076 Bosniak
3.34563895 Croat_Bosnia
3.49635525 Serb_Croatia
3.58928962 Serb
3.62840185 Croat_BiH
4.13329167 Szekely_Hungarian
4.29542780 Croat_Herzegovina
4.48039835 Bosniak_Sarajevo
4.51496401 Croat_Lika-Senj
4.54763675 Croat
4.61907999 Serb_Serbia
4.95810448 Croat_Croatia
5.06121527 Csango_Gymes
5.11905265 Moldova_North
5.24604613 Croat_Zagreb
6.03097007 Romania_Moldavia_average
6.08657539 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.10472057 Slovenian
6.26739180 Hungarian
6.36963107 Romania_Moldavia_South
6.89983333 Moldova_average
7.00239245 Romanian_Transylvania
Updated averages with new kits I received this week. Extremely slight changes.
Croat_Herzegovina,25.32,32.45,15.63,8.46,14.03,1.2 1,0.42,0.17,0.56,0.46,0.37,0.00,0.00
(sample size 33)
Croat_Bosnia,26.68,32.63,15.43,7.16,13.90,1.71,0.6 3,0.07,0.69,0.32,0.37,0.00,0.00
(sample size 9)
Croat_Tropolje,26.15,31.62,15.89,9.10,13.29,1.46,0 .37,0.54,0.42,0.64,0.09,0.00,0.00
(sample size 8)
Croat Lika-Senj,26.49,32.99,15.37,7.24,13.13,1.81,0.33,0.34,0 .57,0.33,0.39,0.00,0.00
(sample size 13)
9. Gorski kotar (sample size=24)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorski_Kotar
Collected from: Lič, Čabar, Delnice, Vrbovsko, Mrkopalj municipalities
North Atlantic 30.20
Baltic 32.50
West_Med 14.46
West_Asian 7.52
East_Med 10.28
Red_Sea 1.14
South_Asian 0.67
East_Asian 0.32
Siberian 0.53
Amerindian 0.48
Oceanian 0.24
Northeast_African 0.14
Sub-Saharan 0.11
Unsuprisingly closest to Slovenians. I was very fortunate to get my hands on all these samples :)
Distance to: Croat_Gorski_Kotar
1.76055157 Slovenian
2.10202284 Hungarian
2.10283142 Croat_Croatia
2.13478336 Croat_Zagreb
2.42266382 Croat_Central_Croatia
2.58443417 Croat
3.76879291 Szekely_Hungarian
4.10749315 Hungarian_East
4.42758399 Croat_Zagorje
4.86972278 Croat_Bosnia
4.88982617 Moldova_North
4.96096765 Croat_Lika-Senj
5.44334456 Croat_BiH
5.47483333 Csango_Hungarian
5.61244154 Croat_Tropolje
5.61335258 Slovak
6.32263394 Hungarian_Transdanubia
6.60327192 Croat_Herzegovina
6.68898348 Croat_Dalmatia
6.74512416 Bosniak
6.85382929 Bosniak_Sarajevo
7.09764750 Czech
7.26634709 Serb_B&H
7.80444745 Austrian
7.90201873 Croat_Istria
Starčević from Lič is ofcourse part of this average, but as I predicted other samples I got are quite different from his results.
9. Gorski kotar (sample size=24)
Quite similar to Hrvoje.
Mingle
05-01-2020, 12:45 AM
I'm not sure if you made one for Northwest Croats, but I did one some time back. Its comprised of results I found on this forum. They are five samples: Hrvoje, ph2ter & his wife, a Croat from Sambor, and another Croat from Koprivnica. Hrvoje and the Croat from Koprivnica mentioned they were mixed (with stuff like Czech or Slovene or whatever) but I assume that's normal for NW Croats and their mixture doesn't seem to be recent, so I included them. So you can decide if its reliable.
Anyways, the sample size is 5:
Croat_Northwest,31.65,32.88,13.00,8.90,9.33,1.07,0 .63,0.22,0.22,1.17,0.31,0.00,0.09
Insuperable
05-01-2020, 12:48 AM
Hello detective Mingle.
Bessarion
05-01-2020, 05:23 PM
Mingle have right. Feichii made a great job, but for us NW Croats the base is very poor and very inconsistent. Far as I know Hrvoje has Slovenian and Czech ancestry nad his autosomal profile, at least according Gedmatch, G25 is similar to mine.
On several occasions, I suggested that I'm poor represent of NW Croat, cause my German and Czech ancestry. Samobor area was populated with some Sachsens, but not in recent time, so maybe ph2ter have some.
So, yes this NW Croat average doesn't seem representative, till more samples.
Mingle have right. Feichii made a great job, but for us NW Croats the base is very poor and very inconsistent. Far as I know Hrvoje has Slovenian and Czech ancestry nad his autosomal profile, at least according Gedmatch, G25 is similar to mine.
On several occasions, I suggested that I'm poor represent of NW Croat, cause my German and Czech ancestry. Samobor area was populated with some Sachsens, but not in recent time, so maybe ph2ter have some.
So, yes this NW Croat average doesn't seem representative, till more samples.
Don't worry, you and Hrvoje are not part of NW Croat average. It's made from Ph2ter and his family including wife. But I agree we need more data.
I'm not sure if you made one for Northwest Croats, but I did one some time back. Its comprised of results I found on this forum. They are five samples: Hrvoje, ph2ter & his wife, a Croat from Sambor, and another Croat from Koprivnica. Hrvoje and the Croat from Koprivnica mentioned they were mixed (with stuff like Czech or Slovene or whatever) but I assume that's normal for NW Croats and their mixture doesn't seem to be recent, so I included them. So you can decide if its reliable.
Anyways, the sample size is 5:
Croat_Northwest,31.65,32.88,13.00,8.90,9.33,1.07,0 .63,0.22,0.22,1.17,0.31,0.00,0.09
I used average made by Ph2ter, those include people with no known foreign ancestry. :)
Cool, I never knew Croatians are more Celto Germanic than Slavic but I get some Scandinavia in my gedmatch
They are obviously not.
Croatia is very divided as a whole, some of my ancestors supported the Nazi Reich during second war and others were in hiding and neutral
How is that connected with ancestry?
Slavic people didn't support Nazi Reich, they either fought against them or coward into hiding, the unfortunate people parished while incarcerated in death camps
Croatians that support Nazi Reich from my understanding (from what my grandparents told me) were usually ostracized individuals in society they were either Austrians, Germans, Crypto Jews, religious minorities who had difficult time making a honest living in 20th century Croatian society
Ok, I see you are troll.
Third Reich had more Slavic than Germanic allies by the way. But it's not up to me to teach history here, this is genetics thread.
Slavic people didn't support Nazi Reich, they either fought against them or coward into hiding, the unfortunate people parished while incarcerated in death camps
Croatians that support Nazi Reich from my understanding (from what my grandparents told me) were usually ostracized individuals in society they were either Austrians, Germans, Crypto Jews, religious minorities who had difficult time making a honest living in 20th century Croatian society
Like all Slavic ethnic groups had Nazi collaborators xD Not that it has anything to do with ancestry.
I think this guy is Cumansky sock, just realised it. Lol :p
Just wanted to state some historical facts. Not any sock puppet. I live in Brazil, my Mother family came here after the fall of Communism and I am half Croatian. I read this website and you are constantly spreading misinformation about Croatia and the Yugodlavia region in general, here I am to tell the other side of the story
Ok, now leave the thread. Thanks.
MoroLP
05-01-2020, 09:49 PM
@Est. 1992, what is the result of a distance and single of the individual of Istria & Medimurje origin recently sent you?
Mingle
05-01-2020, 10:01 PM
I used average made by Ph2ter, those include people with no known foreign ancestry. :)
What name is your NW Croat average under? I must have missed it.
I only included people with foreign ancestry cause I assumed it was the norm there (those with foreign ancestry don't seem to be more CE-shifted). But I agree its better to exclude them when possible.
By the way, I don't think it makes sense to include everyone in ph2ter's family. Like his parents or kids. Since they're related by blood to him, it would skew the average. Its like posting one person's results more than once when calculating the average. But I don't know if he did that.
@Est. 1992, what is the result of a distance and single of the individual of Istria & Medimurje origin recently sent you?
Could you remind me, please? Maybe you sent PM I didn't get or I don't remember. I only have laptop in last week so my data is not available for me (I am on the Island, got a pass to leave the city). Database is stored on my home PC, unfortunately.
What name is your NW Croat average under? I must have missed it.
I only included people with foreign ancestry cause I assumed it was the norm there (those with foreign ancestry don't seem to be more CE-shifted). But I agree its better to exclude them when possible.
By the way, I don't think it makes sense to include everyone in ph2ter's family. Like his parents or kids. Since they're related by blood to him, it would skew the average. Its like posting one person's results more than once when calculating the average. But I don't know if he did that.
It's not the norm, NW Croats aren't mixed in vast majority.
That average is called Croat_Zagorje or previously Kajkavian_Croatian, I just changed the name.
Croat_Zagorje,32.40,34.24,12.44,7.93,7.81,1.49,1.3 2,0.75,0.15,1.18,0.23,0.00,0.06
It's off Vahaduo but it will be back.
It is 4 samples, Ph2ter, his son, father and wife. Not ideal, but that's what we have.
I have 1 more NW Croatian sample I got since than, will be added to average.
Also I ordered Myheritage kit for older woman who married into my Island, she is native of eastern Slavonia.
I already have 2 Slavonian Croat samples, with hers it will be 3 and we will finally have basic average for east Croatia.
Bessarion
05-01-2020, 10:26 PM
@Est. 1992, what is the result of a distance and single of the individual of Istria & Medimurje origin recently sent you?
It will be nice to see the results of the sample from Medjimurje, since it is on border with Hungary with a lot of historical influence, probably very alike Hungarian profiles.
Insuperable
05-01-2020, 10:34 PM
You think all of Zagorje's North Atlantic comes from Celtic tribes living in the area?
ph2ter
05-01-2020, 10:37 PM
I didn't include all my family. Probably only dad and wife, don't remember.
I have one more sample from Zagorje. But it is slightly mixed (small percentage of Czech and Jew - I_P)
Group North_Atlantic Baltic West_Med West_Asian East_Med Red_Sea South_Asian East_Asian Siberian Amerindian Oceanian Northeast_African Sub-Saharan
Croat_NW 31.65 32.88 13.00 8.90 9.33 1.07 0.63 0.22 0.22 1.17 0.31 0.00 0.09
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
I_P______ 30.47 34.32 14.81 5.28 11.04 1.51 0.00 0.00 1.09 0.60 0.00 0.45 0.42
ph2terWife 32.29 33.74 12.26 9.91 07.07 0.46 1.82 1.10 0.00 1.16 0.00 0.00 0.19
ph2ter_son 31.96 33.97 12.11 8.87 07.22 2.10 0.79 1.40 0.00 1.06 0.00 0.00 0.51
ph2ter____ 33.10 34.98 12.26 7.75 06.51 2.23 1.09 0.00 0.36 1.33 0.38 0.00 0.00
ph2ter_dad 31.82 33.99 12.80 6.12 09.84 1.78 1.06 1.15 0.10 1.05 0.30 0.00 0.00
CommonSense
05-01-2020, 10:37 PM
Also I ordered Myheritage kit for older woman who married into my Island, she is native of eastern Slavonia.
I already have 2 Slavonian Croat samples, with hers it will be 3 and we will finally have basic average for east Croatia.
I remember I used to match a guy with the surname Dragičević, but his kit is now gone, probably because the person hasn't checked-up on it since the new gedmatch policy. After uploading my mom's raw data to ftdna, I found him among her matches - he's from Stari Mikanovci in east Slavonia. If his kit ever becomes available again, I'll let you know.
ph2ter
05-01-2020, 10:37 PM
double
MoroLP
05-02-2020, 09:52 AM
Could you remind me, please? Maybe you sent PM I didn't get or I don't remember. I only have laptop in last week so my data is not available for me (I am on the Island, got a pass to leave the city). Database is stored on my home PC, unfortunately.
Possibly didn't receive it, had some problems with the server. Well, will post here the EU13 results.
1) 30.77,33.45,13.10,6.89,13.45,0,1.02,0,0,0.44,0.86, 0,0
The individual paternal side is from villages around Pazin and Zminj (Northern Chakavian dialect), while maternal side from Medimurje.
2) 22.71,39.93,14.55,4.08,14.98,2.41,0,0.86,0,0,0.48, 0,0
I don't know exactly from where this sample is, but is from the same uploader, and closely related to the first in 1.5-2 generation, probably as a cousin from Istria (presume by Italian *name and NA-Baltic ratio). The uploader didn't answer me yet.
Possibly didn't receive it, had some problems with the server. Well, will post here the EU13 results.
1) 30.77,33.45,13.10,6.89,13.45,0,1.02,0,0,0.44,0.86, 0,0
The individual paternal side is from villages around Pazin and Zminj (Northern Chakavian dialect), while maternal side from Medimurje.
2) 22.71,39.93,14.55,4.08,14.98,2.41,0,0.86,0,0,0.48, 0,0
I don't know exactly from where this sample is, but is from the same uploader, and closely related to the first in 1.5-2 generation, probably as a cousin from Istria (presume by Italian *name and NA-Baltic ratio). The uploader didn't answer me yet.
Distance to: Istria/Međimurje_Croat
3.43985465 Croat_Central_Croatia
3.85440008 Croat_Croatia
3.96811038 Croat_Gorski_kotar
3.97807743 Croat_Zagreb
3.98700389 Croat
4.29201584 Hungarian
4.52868781 Slovenian
5.18811141 Croat_Bosnia
5.22682504 Szekely_Hungarian
5.32292213 Croat_Lika-Senj
5.44152552 Hungarian_East
5.75438094 Croat_BiH
6.33959778 Moldova_North
6.36011006 Croat_Zagorje
6.40641085 Croat_Tropolje
6.50475211 Croat_Herzegovina
6.71938241 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
6.77784941 Slovak
6.98242078 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.11432798 Bosniak_Sarajevo
7.14615981 Bosniak
7.25248923 Serb_B&H
7.48979305 Croat_Dalmatia
7.49157527 Csango_Hungarian
7.54180350 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
Other sample (presumably Istrian?)
Distance to: X
8.81553742 Croat_Lika-Senj
9.08733734 Croat_Bosnia
9.30836183 Croat_Herzegovina
9.66033643 Moldova_North
9.78044478 Croat_BiH
9.94123581 Bosniak_Sarajevo
10.18032416 Croat
10.18908730 Croat_Zagreb
10.23636166 Szekely_Hungarian
10.36869326 Croat_Croatia
10.49272605 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
10.61233716 Croat_Tropolje
10.61269052 Bosniak
10.74766951 Croat_Central_Croatia
10.87597352 Croat_Dalmatia
10.97879775 Croat_Istria
10.98572710 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
11.16388821 Serb_B&H
11.19052082 Slovenian
11.56156748 Slovak
11.66533754 Serb_Croatia
11.81514706 Ukrainian_Lviv
11.81934854 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
11.90635125 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
11.96855463 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
Bessarion
05-02-2020, 09:05 PM
Distance to: Istria/Međimurje_Croat
3.43985465 Croat_Central_Croatia
3.85440008 Croat_Croatia
3.96811038 Croat_Gorski_kotar
3.97807743 Croat_Zagreb
3.98700389 Croat
4.29201584 Hungarian
4.52868781 Slovenian
5.18811141 Croat_Bosnia
5.22682504 Szekely_Hungarian
5.32292213 Croat_Lika-Senj
5.44152552 Hungarian_East
5.75438094 Croat_BiH
6.33959778 Moldova_North
6.36011006 Croat_Zagorje
6.40641085 Croat_Tropolje
6.50475211 Croat_Herzegovina
6.71938241 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
6.77784941 Slovak
6.98242078 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.11432798 Bosniak_Sarajevo
7.14615981 Bosniak
7.25248923 Serb_B&H
7.48979305 Croat_Dalmatia
7.49157527 Csango_Hungarian
7.54180350 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
Other sample (presumably Istrian?)
Distance to: X
8.81553742 Croat_Lika-Senj
9.08733734 Croat_Bosnia
9.30836183 Croat_Herzegovina
9.66033643 Moldova_North
9.78044478 Croat_BiH
9.94123581 Bosniak_Sarajevo
10.18032416 Croat
10.18908730 Croat_Zagreb
10.23636166 Szekely_Hungarian
10.36869326 Croat_Croatia
10.49272605 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
10.61233716 Croat_Tropolje
10.61269052 Bosniak
10.74766951 Croat_Central_Croatia
10.87597352 Croat_Dalmatia
10.97879775 Croat_Istria
10.98572710 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
11.16388821 Serb_B&H
11.19052082 Slovenian
11.56156748 Slovak
11.66533754 Serb_Croatia
11.81514706 Ukrainian_Lviv
11.81934854 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
11.90635125 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
11.96855463 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
Can you share this G25 list, or you had on some topic?
MoroLP
05-03-2020, 09:56 AM
Distance to: Istria/Međimurje_Croat
3.43985465 Croat_Central_Croatia
3.85440008 Croat_Croatia
3.96811038 Croat_Gorski_kotar
3.97807743 Croat_Zagreb
3.98700389 Croat
4.29201584 Hungarian
4.52868781 Slovenian
5.18811141 Croat_Bosnia
5.22682504 Szekely_Hungarian
5.32292213 Croat_Lika-Senj
5.44152552 Hungarian_East
5.75438094 Croat_BiH
6.33959778 Moldova_North
6.36011006 Croat_Zagorje
6.40641085 Croat_Tropolje
6.50475211 Croat_Herzegovina
6.71938241 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
6.77784941 Slovak
6.98242078 Hungarian_Transdanubia
7.11432798 Bosniak_Sarajevo
7.14615981 Bosniak
7.25248923 Serb_B&H
7.48979305 Croat_Dalmatia
7.49157527 Csango_Hungarian
7.54180350 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
Other sample (presumably Istrian?)
Distance to: X
8.81553742 Croat_Lika-Senj
9.08733734 Croat_Bosnia
9.30836183 Croat_Herzegovina
9.66033643 Moldova_North
9.78044478 Croat_BiH
9.94123581 Bosniak_Sarajevo
10.18032416 Croat
10.18908730 Croat_Zagreb
10.23636166 Szekely_Hungarian
10.36869326 Croat_Croatia
10.49272605 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
10.61233716 Croat_Tropolje
10.61269052 Bosniak
10.74766951 Croat_Central_Croatia
10.87597352 Croat_Dalmatia
10.97879775 Croat_Istria
10.98572710 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
11.16388821 Serb_B&H
11.19052082 Slovenian
11.56156748 Slovak
11.66533754 Serb_Croatia
11.81514706 Ukrainian_Lviv
11.81934854 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
11.90635125 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
11.96855463 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
Istria/Međimurje_Croat makes sense.
X is a bit strange, probably a cousin with mixed origin. Went again to check EU13 Oracle on Gedmatch:
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Croatian 7.94
2 Moldavian 8.83
3 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.22
4 Ukrainian 10.45
5 South_Polish 11.28
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% Lithuanian + 31.9% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.37
2 74.7% Estonian_Polish + 25.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.46
3 63.6% Lithuanian + 36.4% Ashkenazi @ 4.62
4 70.8% Estonian_Polish + 29.2% Ashkenazi @ 4.62
5 68.3% Lithuanian + 31.7% Italian_Jewish @ 4.69
6 74.9% Estonian_Polish + 25.1% Italian_Jewish @ 4.71
7 73.9% Belorussian + 26.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.82
8 69.9% Belorussian + 30.1% Ashkenazi @ 5.11
You think all of Zagorje's North Atlantic comes from Celtic tribes living in the area?
I think most of it does. What do you think?
Insuperable
05-08-2020, 04:06 PM
I think most of it does. What do you think?
Idk. If I had to guess I would say these Celtic tribes had not much to do with it.
Idk. If I had to guess I would say these Celtic tribes had not much to do with it.
You think it is more recent central Euro influence?
Insuperable
05-08-2020, 06:19 PM
You think it is more recent central Euro influence?
It seems hard to find some northern Croat without German, Hungarian, Slovenian, Czech etc ancestry.
It seems hard to find some northern Croat without German, Hungarian, Slovenian, Czech etc ancestry.
I think you are wrong. Rural north Croats are very unmixed. Most mixed region is Slavonia.
And ofcourse old Zagreb citizens.
Insuperable
05-08-2020, 06:33 PM
Are ph2ter and Celine from rural area?
Are ph2ter and Celine from rural area?
Idk. There is no history of foreign settlement in NW Croatia in significant amount, unlike in Slavonia.
My opinion is they are just Panonnian Slavic in origin who became part of Croatian Kingdom in medieval.
Ph2ter is mixed?
ph2ter
05-08-2020, 08:31 PM
Are ph2ter and Celine from rural area?
All my ancestry is from rural parts of Zagorje (and some border parts of Slovenia, also rural). Zagorje is a region with the most conservative population composition going all the way to deep Middle Ages.
We received only some influx from Central Croatia in the 15th century when Croats were expelled from there by the Turks.
Insuperable
05-08-2020, 11:16 PM
All my ancestry is from rural parts of Zagorje (and some border parts of Slovenia, also rural). Zagorje is a region with the most conservative population composition going all the way to deep Middle Ages.
We received only some influx from Central Croatia in the 15th century when Croats were expelled from there by the Turks.
Yeah, right. How Kajkavian dialect came to be? It is said that it is closest to Slovene language.
Yeah, right. How Kajkavian dialect came to be? It is said that it is closest to Slovene language.
Slovenian language has lot more dialects than Croatian does. It's remarkably heterogenous for such a small country.
Insuperable
05-08-2020, 11:42 PM
Slovenian language has lot more dialects than Croatian does. It's remarkably heterogenous for such a small country.
How different are their dialects from each other? Number is not important.
How different are their dialects from each other? Number is not important.
From what I heard very different. Alenka will know details.
ph2ter
05-08-2020, 11:48 PM
Yeah, right. How Kajkavian dialect came to be? It is said that it is closest to Slovene language.
Kajkavian is very archaic and form a dialectal continuum with Eastern Slovene dialects despite being politically separated from Slovenian lands for 1000 years. There do not exist common inovations with shtokavian. But at the same time it is so much different from Slovenian that it can be regarded as a separate language. Actually it was a literary language from 16th century.
New averages closest populations
Distance to: Croat
1.15112988 Croat_Lika-Senj
1.57178243 Croat_Bosnia
2.11764020 Croat_Dalmatia
2.32275698 Croat_Tropolje
2.38123917 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
2.63874970 Croat_Istria
2.67807767 Moldova_North
2.89380373 Croat_Zagreb
2.90924389 Croat_Herzegovina
3.07496341 Bosniak
3.11412909 Serb_B&H
3.19530906 Croat_Slavonia
3.22667442 Hungarian_Alfold
3.33963212 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.72668754 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
3.77632785 Hungarian_Transylvania
3.89445760 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
4.09389603 Slovenian
4.09871139 Hungarian
4.14581491 Hungarian_Csango
4.46336196 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
4.62265075 Serb_Croatia
4.73789306 Hungarian_Szekely
4.83352873 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
4.87306885 Croat_Gorski-kotar
Distance to: Croat_Bosnia
1.45244621 Croat_Lika-Senj
1.57178243 Croat
1.97420870 Croat_Dalmatia
2.07231754 Croat_Istria
2.14937200 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
2.61637153 Croat_Herzegovina
2.72064331 Serb_B&H
2.76273415 Bosniak
3.06168254 Croat_Tropolje
3.18021634 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.39509941 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
3.64749229 Moldova_North
3.73580731 Hungarian_Csango
3.74061492 Croat_Zagreb
3.82176661 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
4.03985148 Serb_Croatia
4.10660689 Hungarian_Alfold
4.11097312 Croat_Slavonia
4.15045719 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.35708618 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
4.47576809 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
4.52096229 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
4.77529057 Serb
4.90168765 Hungarian_Szekely
4.90214239 Serb_B&H_Krajina
Distance to: Croat_Central
1.65382210 Slovenian
1.71175349 Croat_Gorski-kotar
1.87187905 Hungarian_Budapest
2.04000000 Croat_Zagorje
2.04111548 Hungarian
2.45495358 Hungarian_Alfold
2.79410093 Croat_Zagreb
2.84588843 Hungarian_Transdanubia
3.25683145 Hungarian_Northern
4.39210703 Slovak
4.98755451 Croat
5.55706757 Moldova_North
5.71897718 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
5.76442538 Croat_Lika-Senj
5.80975042 Czech
6.05010744 Croat_Bosnia
6.20081290 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.41079558 Croat_Slavonia
6.68503553 Croat_Tropolje
6.95625618 Croat_Dalmatia
7.20950761 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
7.21388226 Hungarian_Szekely
7.49077433 Croat_Istria
7.58354139 East_German
7.60386744 Austrian
Distance to: Croat_Dalmatia
0.68651293 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
1.07777549 Serb_B&H
1.26435754 Bosniak
1.70604806 Croat_Tropolje
1.78073019 Croat_Istria
1.86359867 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
1.95025639 Croat_Herzegovina
1.97420870 Croat_Bosnia
2.06128601 Croat_Lika-Senj
2.11764020 Croat
2.34923165 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.55376193 Serb_Croatia
2.60871616 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
2.78053952 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
3.03633002 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
3.07582509 Serb_B&H_Krajina
3.20822868 Hungarian_Csango
3.23711291 Serb
3.35442991 Croat_Slavonia
3.57240815 Moldova_North
3.73425579 Hungarian_Transylvania
3.75926855 Serb_Serbia
4.46879273 Hungarian_Szekely
4.93482522 Croat_Zagreb
5.14808702 Romania_Moldavia_North
Distance to: Croat_Gorski-kotar
0.94104033 Hungarian_Budapest
1.30134453 Hungarian_Transdanubia
1.37823557 Hungarian
1.71175349 Croat_Central
2.39320147 Slovenian
2.62595934 Hungarian_Alfold
2.83593018 Croat_Zagorje
3.19479264 Croat_Zagreb
3.98111070 Hungarian_Northern
4.87306885 Croat
5.57480383 Hungarian_Transylvania
5.61715473 Slovak
5.77698018 Croat_Lika-Senj
5.78899819 Croat_Bosnia
6.02970978 Croat_Slavonia
6.09313548 Moldova_North
6.31249357 Hungarian_Szekely
6.54484530 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.58236280 Czech
6.64104660 Austrian
6.66652833 Croat_Tropolje
6.71949403 Croat_Dalmatia
7.02668485 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
7.18804563 East_German
7.42736831 Croat_Istria
Distance to: Croat_Herzegovina
1.12751940 Croat_Istria
1.53449318 Bosniak_Sarajevo
1.60894375 Bosniak
1.79371124 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
1.95025639 Croat_Dalmatia
1.98229665 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
2.22764450 Croat_Lika-Senj
2.29013100 Croat_Tropolje
2.42608739 Serb_B&H
2.61637153 Croat_Bosnia
2.90924389 Croat
3.10853663 Serb_Croatia
3.20201499 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
3.26617513 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
3.40731566 Moldova_North
3.68059778 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
3.77960315 Serb
3.99429593 Serb_Serbia
4.01932830 Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.02642521 Croat_Slavonia
4.16365600 Hungarian_Csango
4.40745959 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
5.10774901 Romania_Moldavia_North
5.23130003 Moldova_Centre
5.25540674 Serb_Herzegovina
Distance to: Croat_Istria
1.12751940 Croat_Herzegovina
1.77535912 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
1.78073019 Croat_Dalmatia
1.79131237 Bosniak
1.86711007 Croat_Lika-Senj
2.07231754 Croat_Bosnia
2.16705853 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.23159136 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
2.30876590 Serb_B&H
2.50139961 Croat_Tropolje
2.63874970 Croat
3.14749106 Serb_Croatia
3.23109888 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
3.47493885 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
3.63938182 Moldova_North
3.64396762 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
3.88964009 Serb
4.15784800 Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.20374833 Serb_Serbia
4.29427016 Hungarian_Csango
4.31923604 Croat_Slavonia
4.56383611 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
5.07059168 Croat_Zagreb
5.30564745 Hungarian_Transylvania
5.42398378 Serb_Herzegovina
Distance to: Croat_Lika-Senj
1.15112988 Croat
1.45244621 Croat_Bosnia
1.86711007 Croat_Istria
2.06128601 Croat_Dalmatia
2.16138844 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
2.22764450 Croat_Herzegovina
2.31255270 Croat_Tropolje
2.49899980 Moldova_North
2.70856050 Bosniak
2.78555608 Bosniak_Sarajevo
3.02900974 Serb_B&H
3.41107021 Croat_Zagreb
3.44826043 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
3.48945554 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
3.57081223 Croat_Slavonia
3.88156255 Hungarian_Alfold
4.17668604 Hungarian_Csango
4.32269592 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
4.41581250 Serb_Croatia
4.44865251 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.65083863 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
4.79952963 Slovenian
4.89773417 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
4.92896132 Hungarian
5.04053569 Serb_B&H_Krajina
Distance to: Croat_Slavonia
2.69105927 Croat_Tropolje
3.19530906 Croat
3.35442991 Croat_Dalmatia
3.54588494 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
3.57081223 Croat_Lika-Senj
3.66731509 Bosniak
3.72186520 Hungarian_Transylvania
3.91831596 Serb_B&H
3.96058077 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
4.00039781 Bosniak_Sarajevo
4.01037405 Moldova_North
4.02642521 Croat_Herzegovina
4.06089859 Hungarian_Szekely
4.08458459 Hungarian_Csango
4.11097312 Croat_Bosnia
4.31923604 Croat_Istria
4.61259146 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
4.81784184 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
4.83736499 Serb_B&H_Krajina
4.91105895 Serb_Croatia
5.13123888 Hungarian_Alfold
5.17970076 Serb
5.30131116 Croat_Zagreb
5.41552398 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
5.46797998 Hungarian
Distance to: Croat_Tropolje
1.70604806 Croat_Dalmatia
1.73311858 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
1.95530049 Bosniak
2.29013100 Croat_Herzegovina
2.29790252 Bosniak_Sarajevo
2.31255270 Croat_Lika-Senj
2.32056028 Serb_B&H
2.32275698 Croat
2.46795462 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
2.50139961 Croat_Istria
2.69105927 Croat_Slavonia
2.76034418 Moldova_North
3.06168254 Croat_Bosnia
3.39275699 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
3.52044031 Serb_B&H_Krajina
3.53150110 Serb_Croatia
3.69226218 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
3.99016682 Hungarian_Csango
4.05552709 Serb
4.07956693 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.15953122 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
4.53708056 Serb_Serbia
4.59312530 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
4.90561923 Croat_Zagreb
4.94189433 Hungarian_Szekely
Distance to: Croat_Zagorje
2.04000000 Croat_Central
2.55418730 Hungarian_Northern
2.83593018 Croat_Gorski-kotar
2.89851584 Hungarian_Budapest
3.29250215 Slovenian
3.35085900 Hungarian
3.48236937 Slovak
3.55965945 Hungarian_Transdanubia
3.85918995 Hungarian_Alfold
4.22217953 Croat_Zagreb
4.39515642 Czech
6.56037346 Croat
6.68087569 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.91235126 Moldova_North
6.97298358 East_German
7.20569219 Croat_Lika-Senj
7.37074623 German_east
7.37216386 Austrian
7.60858725 Croat_Bosnia
7.64022905 Croat_Slavonia
7.75638322 Hungarian_Transylvania
8.18846139 Croat_Tropolje
8.59559771 Croat_Dalmatia
8.60794514 Hungarian_Szekely
8.64915603 South_Polish
Distance to: Croat_Zagreb
1.30296886 Hungarian_Alfold
1.62765356 Slovenian
2.51856302 Hungarian
2.79410093 Croat_Central
2.89380373 Croat
3.19479264 Croat_Gorski-kotar
3.41107021 Croat_Lika-Senj
3.43018197 Hungarian_Budapest
3.74021390 Moldova_North
3.74061492 Croat_Bosnia
3.81296473 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
4.17612564 Hungarian_Transdanubia
4.22217953 Croat_Zagorje
4.27742951 Hungarian_Northern
4.90561923 Croat_Tropolje
4.93482522 Croat_Dalmatia
5.07059168 Croat_Istria
5.13988327 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
5.30131116 Croat_Slavonia
5.42024733 Slovak
5.42608072 Hungarian_Transylvania
5.43341513 Croat_Herzegovina
5.87661944 Bosniak_Sarajevo
5.87827356 Serb_B&H
5.90219451 Bosniak
Insuperable
05-09-2020, 12:05 AM
Kajkavian is very archaic and form a dialectal continuum with Eastern Slovene dialects despite being politically separated from Slovenian lands for 1000 years. There do not exist common inovations with shtokavian. But at the same time it is so much different from Slovenian that it can be regarded as a separate language. Actually it was a literary language from 16th century.
I see this map posted around, mostly by Serbs though.
https://i.imgur.com/05aQida.jpg
In the lower right corner says University of Illinois-Indiana, but there are gramatical errors, it says at the time of Hungarian conquess instead of conquest. Map can't be found anywhere and posted mostly by Serbs which brings some suspicion.
Top 15 closest populations to Croat average without regions
Distance to: Croat
3.07496341 Bosniak
4.09389603 Slovenian
4.09871139 Hungarian
4.73789306 Szekely
5.30459235 Serb
8.17011983 Slovak
8.26184604 Moldovan
9.41911355 Montenegrin
10.33692894 Czech
10.63314159 Romanian
11.03090813 Macedonian
11.08558072 Austrian
13.31537082 Bulgarian
13.94487720 Ukrainian
16.00812606 Gagauz
and closest model
Target: Croat
Distance: 0.5091% / 0.50909185 | ADC: 0.25x
57.0 Bosniak
32.0 Slovenian
11.0 Hungarian
Lucas
05-09-2020, 08:55 AM
Feiichy averages added
ph2ter
05-09-2020, 11:17 AM
I see this map posted around, mostly by Serbs though.
https://i.imgur.com/05aQida.jpg
In the lower right corner says University of Illinois-Indiana, but there are gramatical errors, it says at the time of Hungarian conquess instead of conquest. Map can't be found anywhere and posted mostly by Serbs which brings some suspicion.
The map says Slovenians, but these are not modern Slovenians, but the population of Medieval kingdom of Slavonia which was in native language called Slovenska ( 'orszag Slovenski' or 'szveta cirkva Zagrebecska Szlovenzka'). In that time Slovenia was not in existence and that was not the name of Slovenia and Slovenians which were then called according to the regional names as Kranjci in Carniola, Štajerci in Styria, Korošci in Carinthia etc.
oszkar07
05-09-2020, 11:24 AM
Distance to: Oszkar
8.00033124 Croat_Gorski-kotar
8.01659529 Croat_Zagorje
8.74561604 Croat_Central
10.71518549 Croat_Zagreb
12.49913997 Croat
13.05080074 Croat_Bosnia
13.14078765 Croat_Slavonia
13.27533050 Croat_Lika-Senj
14.08003196 Croat_Dalmatia
14.23224859 Croat_Tropolje
14.85988223 Croat_Istria
15.33211662 Croat_Herzegovina
ph2ter
05-09-2020, 11:27 AM
double
Lucas
05-09-2020, 07:13 PM
The map says Slovenians, but these are not modern Slovenians, but the population of Medieval kingdom of Slavonia which was in native language called Slovenska ( 'orszag Slovenski' or 'szveta cirkva Zagrebecska Szlovenzka'). In that time Slovenia was not in existence and that was not the name of Slovenia and Slovenians which were then called according to the regional names as Kranjci in Carniola, Štajerci in Styria, Korošci in Carinthia etc.
So Slavonian Croat has so different dialect?
ph2ter
05-09-2020, 11:07 PM
So Slavonian Croat has so different dialect?
Modern Slavonia and Medieval Slavonia are not the same thing. Today Slavonia is only the Eastern part of Croatia, but in Medieval Age Slavonia was Northwestern part of Croatia (around Zagreb).
Kaykavian Croatian dialect is to modern official Slovenian maybe like Slovakian is to Czech.
Mingle
05-10-2020, 06:13 AM
Do you think Croat_Slavonia should be split into Croat_East_Slavonia and Croat_West_Slavonia?
In supercomputer's maps, there was a notable east-west divide in Slavonia: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281488-Light-eyes-map-of-Croatia
Seems like such a difference would translate to genetics as well.
And if I'm not mistaken, some of Eastern Slavonia was annexed to Croatia relatively recently.
Also, one more question, is there any genetic difference between Chakavian-speaking Croats and Shtokavian-speaking Croats that live in the same area?
Lucas
05-10-2020, 07:15 AM
Do you think Croat_Slavonia should be split into Croat_East_Slavonia and Croat_West_Slavonia?
In supercomputer's maps, there was a notable east-west divide in Slavonia: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281488-Light-eyes-map-of-Croatia
Seems like such a difference would translate to genetics as well.
And if I'm not mistaken, some of Eastern Slavonia was annexed to Croatia relatively recently.
Also, one more question, is there any genetic difference between Chakavian-speaking Croats and Shtokavian-speaking Croats that live in the same area?
But on this map most eastern province was partly repopulated after '90 Balkan wars when most Serbs from it left. I don't think he checked if his Croats from eastern Slavonia are autochtonous. Maybe some Dalmatians settled there.
Another case if we can trust those averages on this map.
ph2ter
05-10-2020, 10:14 AM
Do you think Croat_Slavonia should be split into Croat_East_Slavonia and Croat_West_Slavonia?
In supercomputer's maps, there was a notable east-west divide in Slavonia: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281488-Light-eyes-map-of-Croatia
Seems like such a difference would translate to genetics as well.
And if I'm not mistaken, some of Eastern Slavonia was annexed to Croatia relatively recently.
Also, one more question, is there any genetic difference between Chakavian-speaking Croats and Shtokavian-speaking Croats that live in the same area?
West Slavonia has significant Czech minority. East Slavonia has some autochtonous pockets of population from Middle Ages, but is mainly populated from Bosnian Posavina (that stream was going even before Turkish invasions).
Serbs are there from Turkish times. After expulsion of Turks, East Slavonia is also repopulated by German settlers (who were expelled in majority after WWII). There is also autochtonous Hungarian minority. Majority of Serbs in East Slavonia as far as I know stayed in East Slavonia. It was peacefully integrated in Croatia.
Ion Basescul
05-10-2020, 12:13 PM
Delete all old Romanian and Moldovan ones except Romanian_average, that one is good.
Than add these
Romania_Moldavia_average,23.92,27.62,16.56,9.91,16 .68,1.51,0.58,0.43,1.36,0.63,0.46,0.16,0.16
Romania_Moldavia_North,23.82,28.53,15.49,10.61,16. 38,1.41,0.68,0.40,1.25,0.60,0.40,0.22,0.21
Romania_Moldavia_South,24.02,26.76,17.58,9.25,16.9 7,1.60,0.48,0.46,1.47,0.65,0.52,0.10,0.12
Moldova_average,22.51,27.80,16.89,10.65,16.33,2.30 ,0.44,0.62,1.19,0.54,0.42,0.10,0.20
Moldova_North,25.89,33.33,14.92,8.89,11.43,1.48,0. 65,0.56,1.47,0.35,0.61,0.17,0.26
Moldova_Centre,21.89,29.51,16.06,10.47,16.10,1.90, 0.53,0.83,1.14,0.81,0.48,0.08,0.20
Moldova_South,21.51,24.20,18.33,11.54,18.60,2.94,0 .29,0.49,1.11,0.42,0.29,0.10,0.18
Moldova_Romanian/Moldovan+Ukrainian_Mixes,24.50,36.97,13.80,8.11,11 .00,1.03,1.07,0.57,1.66,0.66,0.26,0.12,0.25
Serbian_Belgrade_academic,24.42,28.12,17.06,9.06,1 7.09,1.48,0.45,0.36,0.73,0.56,0.54,0.1,0.04
Romanian_Oltenia,23.83,17.91,10.68,17.72,1.81,0.67 ,0.85,0.60,0.40,0.37,0.09,0.06,0.00
Romanian_Muntenia,21.74,24.52,16.95,11.73,19.26,2. 31,0.82,0.55,1,0.45,0.34,0.26,0.07
Romanian_Wallachia_average,22.68,24.86,17.47,11.15 ,18.47,2.11,0.71,0.70,0.85,0.41,0.36,0.16,0.06
Romanian_Transylvania,23.98,26.24,17.43,9.61,17.51 ,1.68,0.64,0.62,1.13,0.54,0.40,0.09,0.12
You have a typo for Oltenia.
Romanian_Oltenia,23.83,25.02,17.91,10.68,17.72,1.8 1,0.67,0.85,0.60,0.40,0.37,0.09,0.06
But I will update the averages soon.
Do you think Croat_Slavonia should be split into Croat_East_Slavonia and Croat_West_Slavonia?
In supercomputer's maps, there was a notable east-west divide in Slavonia: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281488-Light-eyes-map-of-Croatia
Seems like such a difference would translate to genetics as well.
And if I'm not mistaken, some of Eastern Slavonia was annexed to Croatia relatively recently.
Also, one more question, is there any genetic difference between Chakavian-speaking Croats and Shtokavian-speaking Croats that live in the same area?
Slavonia is region with least samples so it's early to tell. I don't think such division is justified, it's one historical region.
Btw, Serb population remained in east Slavonia unlike in western. And east Slavonia was part of Croatia since liberation from Ottomans.
In Dalmatia samples vary and I can't see direct link to dialect so far. So I would say they don't differ according to dialect but individually. We''ll see in the future.
But on this map most eastern province was partly repopulated after '90 Balkan wars when most Serbs from it left. I don't think he checked if his Croats from eastern Slavonia are autochtonous. Maybe some Dalmatians settled there.
Another case if we can trust those averages on this map.
Serbs actually left west Slavonia after operation Flash. East Slavonia was peacefully reintegrated in 1998 and one of conditions was to leave Serbian population there.
I think east Slavonia may be darker because it had big Danube Swabian population (west Slavonia did not),and after Germans were expelled lot ofcolonists from dinaric alps moved in the region.
Both Serbs and Croats. This happened after WW2. Due to hunger for example lot of Dalmatian and Herzegovians were moved there.
But recently no influx from south came. Now people are leaving Slavonia, you are more likely to find Slavonian in Rijeka or Split than the opposite.
Lucas
05-10-2020, 06:08 PM
Serbs actually left west Slavonia after operation Flash. East Slavonia was peacefully reintegrated in 1998 and one of conditions was to leave Serbian population there.
I think east Slavonia may be darker because it had big Danube Swabian population (west Slavonia did not),and after Germans were expelled lot ofcolonists from dinaric alps moved in the region.
Both Serbs and Croats. This happened after WW2. Due to hunger for example lot of Dalmatian and Herzegovians were moved there.
But recently no influx from south came. Now people are leaving Slavonia, you are more likely to find Slavonian in Rijeka or Split than the opposite.
If some Germans in Croatia left? For eample they "croatized" themselves officially (change of surnames etc).
If some Germans in Croatia left? For eample they "croatized" themselves officially (change of surnames etc).
Yes.:) German surnames are not hard to find in Croatia. Those were mostly urban Germans who croatized, rural Germans had compact and homogenous villages and those are mostly gone.
Mingle
05-10-2020, 06:28 PM
West Slavonia has significant Czech minority. East Slavonia has some autochtonous pockets of population from Middle Ages, but is mainly populated from Bosnian Posavina (that stream was going even before Turkish invasions).
Serbs are there from Turkish times. After expulsion of Turks, East Slavonia is also repopulated by German settlers (who were expelled in majority after WWII). There is also autochtonous Hungarian minority. Majority of Serbs in East Slavonia as far as I know stayed in East Slavonia. It was peacefully integrated in Croatia.
So East Slavonia is mainly comprised of Croats from Bosnian Posavina while West Slavonia is mainly comprised of autochthonous Croats?
ph2ter
05-10-2020, 07:44 PM
So East Slavonia is mainly comprised of Croats from Bosnian Posavina while West Slavonia is mainly comprised of autochthonous Croats?
West Slavonian population is according to their origin very mixed. It was part of Military border.
There in Turkish times came Serbs, but after conquest it was repopulated from different parts of Austria-Hungary, for example by the Czechs and Slovaks.
Autochtonous Medieval population are only some pockets of Kaykavians in its northern and western part (around Kutina and Virovitica) and a population with distant origin (in past) from Bosnian Posavina (Požega and Brod Posavina).
vbnetkhio
05-10-2020, 08:09 PM
West Slavonian population is according to their origin very mixed. It was part of Military border.
There in Turkish times came Serbs, but after conquest it was repopulated from different parts of Austria-Hungary, for example by the Czechs and Slovaks.
Autochtonous Medieval population are only some pockets of Kaykavians in its northern and western part (around Kutina and Virovitica) and a population with distant origin (in past) from Bosnian Posavina (Požega and Brod Posavina).
this person is from the area between Slatina and Našice, also 1/8 from Gorski Kotar and 1/8 Hungarian.
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 33.45
2 North_Atlantic 32.37
3 West_Med 14.4
4 East_Med 9.09
5 West_Asian 6.37
6 Red_Sea 1.6
7 Siberian 1.32
8 Amerindian 0.59
9 Oceanian 0.31
10 East_Asian 0.24
11 South_Asian 0.2
12 Northeast_African 0.07
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 2.67
2 East_German 5.32
3 Croatian 5.4
4 Austrian 5.56
5 Moldavian 7.69
6 South_Polish 8.79
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.55
8 Serbian 9.56
9 Ukrainian 10.58
10 Polish 12.36
11 West_German 13.61
12 Romanian 13.92
13 North_Swedish 14.66
14 South_Dutch 14.7
15 Southwest_Russian 14.79
16 Southwest_Finnish 15.03
17 North_German 15.1
18 Ukrainian_Belgorod 15.27
19 Russian_Smolensk 15.43
20 Estonian_Polish 15.92
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.3% Southwest_Russian + 38.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.56
2 60.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 39.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.6
3 78.3% Croatian + 21.7% Southeast_English @ 1.66
4 62.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.3% Spanish_Murcia @ 1.67
5 74.4% South_Polish + 25.6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.72
6 50.8% Croatian + 49.2% Austrian @ 1.73
7 72.9% South_Polish + 27.1% Portuguese @ 1.75
8 61.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 38.5% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 1.76
9 74.8% South_Polish + 25.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 1.76
10 79% Croatian + 21% Orcadian @ 1.78
11 65.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 34.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 1.81
12 54.2% Southwest_Russian + 45.8% French @ 1.81
13 80.2% Croatian + 19.8% Southwest_English @ 1.82
14 62.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 1.85
15 74.2% Croatian + 25.8% South_Dutch @ 1.86
16 63.5% Southwest_Russian + 36.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 1.87
17 62.3% Southwest_Russian + 37.7% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 1.9
18 80.7% Croatian + 19.3% West_Scottish @ 1.92
19 64.2% Southwest_Russian + 35.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.92
20 63.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 36.5% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.93
this person is from the area between Slatina and Našice, also 1/8 from Gorski Kotar and 1/8 Hungarian.
May I see their Dodecad? How much NE and AM.
vbnetkhio
05-10-2020, 08:16 PM
May I see their Dodecad? How much NE and AM.
here
Population
Gedrosia 4.24 Pct
Siberian 1.01 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian 0.38 Pct
Atlantic_Med 27.36 Pct
North_European 47.12 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 3.54 Pct
East_Asian 0.18 Pct
Caucasus 16.15 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
here
Population
Gedrosia 4.24 Pct
Siberian 1.01 Pct
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian 0.38 Pct
Atlantic_Med 27.36 Pct
North_European 47.12 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 3.54 Pct
East_Asian 0.18 Pct
Caucasus 16.15 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
Distance to: ~
1.55775479 Hungarians
4.77324837 Croat
6.13815119 Bosnian
7.49959999 R.Moldova_Centre+North
8.94271212 HUN_Szekely
8.94858089 Sorb_Lusatia
9.34048179 German
9.86327025 Serb
10.00658283 Ukrainian
12.43364790 Rus_Smolensk
12.66657807 PL_Mazovia
13.46286374 Rus_Kostroma
13.69754358 Montenegrin
15.07594773 Rus_Tver
15.20227615 Southwest_Rus
16.00184677 Macedonian
16.73901431 Mixed_Germanic
16.99844110 Pomak
17.06911245 Romanians
17.63055870 Dutch
Target: ~
Distance: 1.3827% / 1.38270771 | ADC: 1x
95.8 Hungarians
4.2 Croat
Target: ~
Distance: 1.0266% / 1.02657137 | ADC: 0.5x
83.8 Hungarians
15.4 Croat
0.8 German
Target: ~
Distance: 0.6306% / 0.63056815 | ADC: 0.25x
79.8 Hungarians
11.6 Croat
4.8 German
3.2 HUN_Szekely
0.4 Saudis
0.2 Ket
Maybe Dushan was right saying the Croat average on Dodecad is a bit too Southern. But I cannot correct it myself even if that's the case.
Well this person has very above average North Atlantic for a Croat.
It's definitely north shifted from average.
I'd include her/him in Slavonian Croat average, because I don't look further than 4 grandparents born in same region and 1/8 foreign ancestry I accept.
Mingle
05-10-2020, 08:29 PM
West Slavonian population is according to their origin very mixed. It was part of Military border.
There in Turkish times came Serbs, but after conquest it was repopulated from different parts of Austria-Hungary, for example by the Czechs and Slovaks.
Autochtonous Medieval population are only some pockets of Kaykavians in its northern and western part (around Kutina and Virovitica) and a population with distant origin (in past) from Bosnian Posavina (Požega and Brod Posavina).
Well, based on this, it seems like the two regions of Slavonia had different population movements and should be given separate averages (once there are enough samples). I'd expect West Slavonia Croats to score like other North Croats while East Slavonia Croats would probably score more like Bosnian Croats.
Lucas
05-10-2020, 08:29 PM
West Slavonian population is according to their origin very mixed. It was part of Military border.
There in Turkish times came Serbs, but after conquest it was repopulated from different parts of Austria-Hungary, for example by the Czechs and Slovaks.
Autochtonous Medieval population are only some pockets of Kaykavians in its northern and western part (around Kutina and Virovitica) and a population with distant origin (in past) from Bosnian Posavina (Požega and Brod Posavina).
Those Czech and Slovaks are assimilated to Croat body now?
Well based on this, it seems like the two regions of Slavonia had different population movements and should be given separate averages (once there are enough samples). I'd expect West Slavonia Croats to score like other North Croats while East Slavonia Croats would probably score more like Bosnian Croats.
Hopefully soon I will have results of another east Slavonian Croat.
Woman I ordered test for is from these 2 locations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Cepin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuka,_Osijek-Baranja_County
She belongs to Šokac Croat subgroup.
ph2ter
05-10-2020, 08:34 PM
Those Czech and Slovaks are assimilated to Croat body now?
I think in majority. Today is 10 000 people with such self-identification. They have also their representative in Croatian Parliament.
Dušan
05-10-2020, 08:41 PM
Maybe Dushan was right saying the Croat average on Dodecad is a bit too Southern. But I cannot correct it myself even if that's the case.
I am always right. :)
According to that silly average, I am closer to it than ph2ter is, and that situation is ridiculous.
I am always right. :)
According to that silly average, I am closer to it than ph2ter is, and that situation is ridiculous.
Nothing ridiculous about that. He is most northern shifted Croats can get more of less while your results are pretty average except lower north atlantic.
Dušan
05-10-2020, 08:52 PM
Nothing ridiculous about that. He is most northern shifted Croats can get more of less while your results are pretty average except lower north atlantic.
He is average for NW Croats, who are always underestimated in counting of Croatian average.
Insisting on dalmatian and herzegovian results is pushing Croats closer to Serbs and away from Hungarians.
And no, I am not average, because, beside my very low N.Atlantic, my K13 west Med (Vlach) blood is higher than any Croatian average.
I am always right. :)
According to that silly average, I am closer to it than ph2ter is, and that situation is ridiculous.
We will replace it if a better one is available. Maybe some academic samples.
He is average for NW Croats, who are always underestimated in counting of Croatian average.
Insisting on dalmatian and herzegovian results is pushing Croats closer to Serbs and away from Hungarians.
And no, I am not average, because, beside my very low N.Atlantic, my K13 west Med (Vlach) blood is higher than any Croatian average.
It depends, my father is only 1/8 NW Croat and his second closest population are Alfold Hungarians.
We will replace it if a better one is available. Maybe some academic samples.
That one is from academic samples if I am not mistaken and it is pretty decent.
My criteria for sample collection is as following:
1) Needs to be 7/8 Croat by ancestry minimum, highest foreign input I accept is 1/8 and it must be from historical minority in the region
2) all 4 grandparents need to be born in the region to be included to specific regional average, otherwise it will only be in general average
Mingle
05-10-2020, 09:50 PM
Distance to: ~
1.55775479 Hungarians
4.77324837 Croat
6.13815119 Bosnian
7.49959999 R.Moldova_Centre+North
8.94271212 HUN_Szekely
8.94858089 Sorb_Lusatia
9.34048179 German
9.86327025 Serb
10.00658283 Ukrainian
12.43364790 Rus_Smolensk
12.66657807 PL_Mazovia
13.46286374 Rus_Kostroma
13.69754358 Montenegrin
15.07594773 Rus_Tver
15.20227615 Southwest_Rus
16.00184677 Macedonian
16.73901431 Mixed_Germanic
16.99844110 Pomak
17.06911245 Romanians
17.63055870 Dutch
Target: ~
Distance: 1.3827% / 1.38270771 | ADC: 1x
95.8 Hungarians
4.2 Croat
Target: ~
Distance: 1.0266% / 1.02657137 | ADC: 0.5x
83.8 Hungarians
15.4 Croat
0.8 German
Target: ~
Distance: 0.6306% / 0.63056815 | ADC: 0.25x
79.8 Hungarians
11.6 Croat
4.8 German
3.2 HUN_Szekely
0.4 Saudis
0.2 Ket
Maybe Dushan was right saying the Croat average on Dodecad is a bit too Southern. But I cannot correct it myself even if that's the case.
Well it was always known that we have a shortage of North Croats. They're samples we've been looking for a while now. So far, the only full North Croats I've seen are ph2ter and his family.
But even if we get several more full North Croats, they will always be very underrepresented since South Croats are MUCH more likely to take DNA tests. The only way for them to be properly represented is if we take their average and multiply it by their percentage within Croatia's population and then do the same thing with the other subgroups.
Well it was always known that we have a shortage of North Croats. They're samples we've been looking for a while now. So far, the only full North Croats I've seen are ph2ter and his family.
But even if we get several more full North Croats, they will always be very underrepresented since South Croats are MUCH more likely to take DNA tests. The only way for them to be properly represented is if we take their average and multiply it by their percentage within Croatia's population and then do the same thing with the other subgroups.
Depends what you define as northern Croatia. To me everyone with deep ancestry north of Sava river is a northern Croat.
By that I mean persons who have no ancestry south from Sava river at all (that river was border or Roman provinces of Panonnia and Dalmatia also)
I did weighted Croatian average before, not exactly in percentages but close to it. It's excellent idea.
Dušan
05-10-2020, 10:27 PM
Those Czech and Slovaks are assimilated to Croat body now?
Yes.
It is not well known, but completly true fact that in the begining of the 20th century 32% of population of todays Croatia were non-Croats.
https://i.imgur.com/M79Wfz4.png
Croats during the ww2 and last war in 90s killed and expelled most of Serbs, expelled all of Italians of Istria, Fiume (Rijeka) and Zara (Zadar), as well as expelled all Germans from eastern Slavonia and Baranja. Rest of minorities, Czechs, Slovaks and Hungarians were agressively assimilated.
For example, Pula, Fiume and Zara were majority Italian, while Osijek in Slavonia were majority ethnic German city, according to censuses 1900 and 1910.
Yes.
It is not well known, but completly true fact that in the begining of the 20th century 32% of population of todays Croatia were non-Croats.
https://i.imgur.com/M79Wfz4.png
Croats during the ww2 and last war in 90s killed and expelled most of Serbs, expelled all of Italians of Istria, Fiume (Rijeka) and Zara (Zadar), as well as expelled all Germans from eastern Slavonia and Baranja. Rest of minorities, Czechs, Slovaks and Hungarians were agressively assimilated.
For example, Pula, Fiume and Zara were majority Italian, while Osijek in Slavonia were majority ethnic German city, according to censuses 1900 and 1910.
Please don't spread bullshit, no offense.
Croats didn't expel Germans lol,it was mostly Serb communists who did that and it was mostly Serb dinaric colonists who moved to German houses.
Why would Croats expel Germans, our WW2 allies? Complete nonsense.
There was no any agressive assimilation of Czechs and Slovaks either,it is total lie and they assimilated naturally due to being both Slavic and Catholic.
If you have any proof for your claims post it than.
Croatia never had any official croatisation policy like Italy and yes Serbia had.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbianisation
We never did what you did in Macedonia or Kosvo or what Italians did in Istria.
Also let's not forget colonisation of Croatian Slavonia WW1 Serbian soldiers from Salonica front or colonisation of Croatian coastal cities with JNA Serbian/Montenegrin personnel after WW2.
1/3 of my block in Rijeka consists of ''deca vojnih lica'' from east. You always came to us, never the opposite.
Lucas
05-11-2020, 10:44 AM
There was no any agressive assimilation of Czechs and Slovaks either,it is total lie and they assimilated naturally due to being both Slavic and Catholic.
How many (more or less) Czechs and Slovak descendants could live now as Croats (not those 10 000 which still feel their ethnicity)? It is tiny percent in Slavonia or 1/10 or more?
How many (more or less) Czechs and Slovak descendants could live now as Croats (not those 10 000 which still feel their ethnicity)? It is tiny percent in Slavonia or 1/10 or more?
It is much more for sure. Probably 100-200 000 Croats have partial Czech background. Slovak much less.
Slavonia received much more Czech than Slovaks, unlike Vojvodina in northern Serbia that received mainly Slovaks.
You can also find Czech surnames easily in bigger cities outside Slavonia (like Zagreb or Rijeka). User Hrvoje has partly Czech roots from his Bosnian Croat side (NE Bosnia near Slavonia)
Dušan
05-11-2020, 11:45 AM
Please don't spread bullshit, no offense.
Croats didn't expel Germans lol,it was mostly Serb communists who did that and it was mostly Serb dinaric colonists who moved to German houses.
Why would Croats expel Germans, our WW2 allies? Complete nonsense.
There was no any agressive assimilation of Czechs and Slovaks either,it is total lie and they assimilated naturally due to being both Slavic and Catholic.
If you have any proof for your claims post it than.
Croatia never had any official croatisation policy like Italy and yes Serbia had.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbianisation
We never did what you did in Macedonia or Kosvo or what Italians did in Istria.
Serb communists? It was Croat Josip Broz Tito who was the head of Yugoslavia, and who made all desicions.
And no, most of former German setllements in eastern Slavonia and Baranya, were settled by Croats.
Large German villages were Jarmina and Neudorf near Vinkovci, completly settled my Croatian immigrants, as well as Retfala and Josipovac near Osijek.
There are several villages that were partly Croatian partly German, such as Sotin, Lovas, Ilača, Nijemci, near border with Serbia, who became completly Croatian after expulsion of Germans. No Serbs settled there.
Not to mention Baranya, where in towns Beli Manastir (Pelmonostor) and Darda only Serbs, Germans and Hungarians lived, and than Croats replaced Germans.
Villages in Baranya, that where completly German - Čeminac, Grabovac, Kozarac and Petlovac, now are completly Croatian.
Assimilation of Czechs was not voluntary, but result of Croatocentric educational system. Serbia preserve all its ethnic minorities unlike xenophobic Croatia.
Dušan
05-11-2020, 11:58 AM
Also let's not forget colonisation of Croatian Slavonia WW1 Serbian soldiers from Salonica front or colonisation of Croatian coastal cities with JNA Serbian/Montenegrin personnel after WW2.
1/3 of my block in Rijeka consists of ''deca vojnih lica'' from east. You always came to us, never the opposite.
There were virtually zero Croats in Belgrade before creation of Yugoslavia in 1918.
On census 1961. there were 35.000 Croats in Belgrade. Why those immigrants came to Serbia?
Serb communists? It was Croat Josip Broz Tito who was the head of Yugoslavia, and who made all desicions.
And no, most of former German setllements in eastern Slavonia and Baranya, were settled by Croats.
Large German villages were Jarmina and Neudorf near Vinkovci, completly settled my Croatian immigrants, as well as Retfala and Josipovac near Osijek.
There are several villages that were partly Croatian partly German, such as Sotin, Lovas, Ilača, Nijemci, near border with Serbia, who became completly Croatian after expulsion of Germans. No Serbs settled there.
Not to mention Baranya, where in towns Beli Manastir (Pelmonostor) and Darda only Serbs, Germans and Hungarians lived, and than Croats replaced Germans.
Villages in Baranya, that where completly German - Čeminac, Grabovac, Kozarac and Petlovac, now are completly Croatian.
Assimilation of Czechs was not voluntary, but result of Croatocentric educational system. Serbia preserve all its ethnic minorities unlike xenophobic Croatia.
There were much more Germans in Vojvodina and guess who replaced them-Serbs.
Trying to show Croats wanted to get rid of Germans, our allies, is beyond laughable.
NDH was last German ally in Europe, and yes they wanted so bad to expel Germans? LMAO. Maybe you should write fantasy fiction.
We would very much want Germans back in Slavonia, they were higher quality minority than Serbian troublemakers.
Nope, there was not any planned assimilation of Czechs. If you claim something, you should present evidence.
Czechs have their representative in Croatian parliament, unlike any minority in Serbia, Czech schools and most importantly they defended Croatia togheder with Croats in last war.
Serb war crimes against Czechs of Croatia.They attacked them because Czechs were loyal to their Croatian homeland.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php305254-War-crime-against-Czech-and-Hungarian-minority-committed-by-Serb-rebels-and-Yugoslav-army (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?305254-War-crime-against-Czech-and-Hungarian-minority-committed-by-Serb-rebels-and-Yugoslav-army)
You just can't understand what natural assimilation is because Serbs do everything with force.
Serbs even changed surnames of Macedonian Slavs to more Serbian sounding during occupation of that land, this is something completely unimaginable here.
Ofcourse central Europeans won't assimilate with orthodox Serbs who were part of different civilisation for centuries.
However plenty of Vlachs did assimilate into Serbs.
There were virtually zero Croats in Belgrade before creation of Yugoslavia in 1918.
On census 1961. there were 35.000 Croats in Belgrade. Why those immigrants came to Serbia?
Great number indeed. Most likely people married for Serbs and communist officials who worked in Belgrade.
Dušan
05-11-2020, 12:54 PM
There were much more Germans in Vojvodina and guess who replaced them-Serbs.
Trying to show Croats wanted to get rid of Germans, our allies, is beyond laughable.
NDH was last German ally in Europe, and yes they wanted so bad to expel Germans? LMAO. Maybe you should write fantasy fiction.
We would very much want Germans back in Slavonia, they were higher quality minority than Serbian troublemakers.
Nope, there was not any planned assimilation of Czechs. If you claim something, you should present evidence.
Czechs have their representative in Croatian parliament, unlike any minority in Serbia, Czech schools and most importantly they defended Croatia togheder with Croats in last war.
Serb war crimes against Czechs of Croatia.They attacked them because Czechs were loyal to their Croatian homeland.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php305254-War-crime-against-Czech-and-Hungarian-minority-committed-by-Serb-rebels-and-Yugoslav-army (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?305254-War-crime-against-Czech-and-Hungarian-minority-committed-by-Serb-rebels-and-Yugoslav-army)
You just can't understand what natural assimilation is because Serbs do everything with force.
Serbs even changed surnames of Macedonian Slavs to more Serbian sounding during occupation of that land, this is something completely unimaginable here.
Ofcourse central Europeans won't assimilate with orthodox Serbs who were part of different civilisation for centuries.
However plenty of Vlachs did assimilate into Serbs.
Yes, we all know that Croatia was most faithfull Hitler's collaborator.
I am talking about one century of expulsion of non-Croats from todays Croatia, either by Croatian nazi ustaše who killed and expelled Serbs and completly exterminated Jews and Roma in Croatia, either by Croatian communists who expell Italians and Germans.
As a result of that percentage of non-Croats fell from 32% to less than 9%.
Facts are facts. You cannot change these numbers.
Yes, we all know that Croatia was most faithfull Hitler's collaborator.
I am talking about one century of expulsion of non-Croats from todays Croatia, either by Croatian nazi ustaše who killed and expelled Serbs and completly exterminated Jews and Roma in Croatia, either by Croatian communists who expell Italians and Germans.
As a result of that percentage of non-Croats fell from 32% to less than 9%.
Facts are facts. You cannot change these numbers.
Nope. In early 20th century Croatian lands had different borders than today, without Croat majority Međimurje and Istria and with Serb-majority east Syrmia plus Montenegrin majority Boka kotorska. And I have to correct you that Yugoslav communists expelled Germans, not ''Croatian communists''.
There were never any Croatian communists, only Yugoslav ones who fought for Yugoslavia.
And they are responsible for killing of tens of thousands to more than hundred thousand Croats after WW2.
Dušan
05-11-2020, 01:09 PM
Nope. In early 20th century Croatian lands had different borders than today, without Croat majority Međimurje and Istria and with Serb-majority east Syrmia plus Montenegrin majority Boka kotorska. And I have to correct you that Yugoslav communists expelled Germans, not ''Croatian communists''.
There were never any Croatian communists, only Yugoslav ones who fought for Yugoslavia.
And they are responsible for killing of tens of thousands to more than hundred thousand Croats after WW2.
No, that percentage is reffered for territory of todays Croatia, with Istria,Međimurje and Baranya, and without east Srem and Boka.
https://i.imgur.com/ZLvoXW6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/M79Wfz4.png
Facts are facts.
No, that percentage is reffered for territory of todays Croatia, with Istria,Međimurje and Baranya, and without east Srem and Boka.
https://i.imgur.com/ZLvoXW6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/M79Wfz4.png
Facts are facts.
Germans are gone, Serb and Italian numbers were greatly reduced while all others are still here, naturally assimilating like in every normal country.
Now tell me how did number of Serbs of Vojvodina increase from tiny 33% to 67% today only in last century?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Vojvodina
Ofcourse I know how. I suggest you to clean your own backyard first.
Dušan
05-11-2020, 01:24 PM
Germans are gone, Serb and Italian numbers were greatly reduced while all others are still here, naturally assimilating like in every normal country.
Now tell me how did number of Serbs of Vojvodina increase from tiny 33% to 67% today only in last century?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Vojvodina
Ofcourse I know how. I suggest you to clean your own backyard first.
How? By expulsions of Serbs from Croatia, and half of Bosnia-Herzegovina by Croats and Bosnian Muslims.
Thats how number of Serbs in Vojvodina increased.
How? By expulsions of Serbs from Croatia, and half of Bosnia-Herzegovina by Croats and Bosnian Muslims.
Thats how number of Serbs in Vojvodina increased.
In last census before Yugoslav wars percentage of Serbs in Vojvodina already increased to 57%.
After the wars it increased to current 67%. So, largest Serb population increase happened after WW1 and WW2.
Those are facts.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14623528.2016.1227561?scroll=top&needAccess=true&journalCode=cjgr20
‘Ethnic cleansing’ in peacetime? Yugoslav/Serb colonization projects in Vojvodina in the twentieth century'
This article deals with post-war population movements affecting Yugoslav Vojvodina in the period between 1918 and 1996, with a strong focus on the first half of the twentieth century. It is argued that many Yugoslav/Serbian political and military leaders considered the aftermaths of wars and wars in the neighbourhood respectively a convenient window of opportunity for ‘adjusting’ the ethnic structure in specific regions according to their visions and ideals. Such an ethnic ‘cleansing’ combined with social engineering occurred in Vojvodina in the years from 1919 to 1922, from 1944 to 1947 and again during the Yugoslav wars of secession in the 1990s. With each of these colonization projects, this ‘most European region of Serbia’ (Aleksandar Popov, Director of the Centre for Regionalism, Novi Sad) became more Serbian on the one hand and less multicultural on the other.
vbnetkhio
05-11-2020, 04:08 PM
New averages from the results collected by Feiichy, CommonSense, Peterski, Mingle and me.
.North_AtlanticBalticWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRed _SeaSouth_AsianEast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceania nNortheast_AfrSub-Saharan
Croat_B&H_Bosnia27.5232.1815.427.1213.801.500.640.290.620. 300.430.070.12
Croat_B&H_Herzegovina24.6732.9315.618.6214.051.480.720.190 .450.600.410.030.07
Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia26.2031.9515.689.3212.991.710.530.370 .370.480.210.110.07
Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia26.1931.5616.058.4513.661.57 0.490.190.590.530.370.200.12
Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar31.5332.4814.467.5210.28 1.150.620.290.530.550.310.140.12
Croat_Croatia_Zagorje31.6534.3213.077.788.751.540. 740.550.290.820.230.090.16
Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner26.0232.7015.677.5114.511.760.190.460.210.3 80.510.070.02
Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj26.9232.6815.747.6513.071.540.310.250.540.540. 520.140.09
Croat_Croatia_Slavonia28.3332.9413.588.4512.751.27 0.050.241.290.730.340.020.02
Croat_Croatia_Central30.2033.9114.987.329.691.110. 840.230.350.440.660.050.28
Can't say they're so extremely diverse and heterogeneous. Most of that could be chalked up to individual variation (as we all know even siblings don't get identical percentages). So "the Croatian question" is a bit too hyped up in my opinion.
vbnetkhio
05-11-2020, 05:07 PM
and here are weighted averages by country and a Croat average:
.North_AtlanticBalticWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRed _SeaSouth_AsianEast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceania nNortheast_AfrSub-Saharan
Croat_Croatia28.4032.8614.877.8412.091.440.430.310 .560.570.420.100.11
Croat_B&H26.1332.3615.578.3513.611.560.630.290.480.460.350 .070.09
Croat28.0332.7814.987.9212.341.460.460.310.550.550 .410.100.11
The Croat_Croatia average is 36% Kajkavian (Zagorje, Central Croatia and Gorski Kotar) and 64% Shtokavian-Chakavian, because around WWI 36% Croats spoke Kajkavian.
The Croat average is around 85% Croatia and 15% B&H, based on the numbers before WW2.
For Bosnia and Herzegovina i couldn't find any ethnicity statistics by 2 or 3 main regions (Bosnia, Herzegovina, Krajina) so i just averaged the 3 regions, for now.
Fantastic job Vbnethkio!
I would like to send these to Lukasz, if that is okay for you.
vbnetkhio
05-11-2020, 05:44 PM
Fantastic job Vbnethkio!
I would like to send these to Lukasz, if that is okay for you.
of course.
West Bosnia is Tropolje + 1 Banja Luka Croat
Croat_B&H_Bosnia,27.52,32.18,15.42,7.12,13.80,1.50,0.64,0. 29,0.62,0.30,0.43,0.07,0.12
Croat_B&H_Herzegovina,24.67,32.93,15.61,8.62,14.05,1.48,0. 72,0.19,0.45,0.60,0.41,0.03,0.07
Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia,26.20,31.95,15.68,9.32,12.99,1.71,0. 53,0.37,0.37,0.48,0.21,0.11,0.07
Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia,26.19,31.56,16.05,8.45,13.6 6,1.57,0.49,0.19,0.59,0.53,0.37,0.20,0.12
Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar,31.53,32.48,14.46,7.52, 10.28,1.15,0.62,0.29,0.53,0.55,0.31,0.14,0.12
Croat_Croatia_Zagorje,31.65,34.32,13.07,7.78,8.75, 1.54,0.74,0.55,0.29,0.82,0.23,0.09,0.16
Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner,26.02,32.70,15.67,7.51,14.51,1.76,0.19,0.4 6,0.21,0.38,0.51,0.07,0.02
Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj,26.92,32.68,15.74,7.65,13.07,1.54,0.31,0.25,0 .54,0.54,0.52,0.14,0.09
Croat_Croatia_Slavonia,28.33,32.94,13.58,8.45,12.7 5,1.27,0.05,0.24,1.29,0.73,0.34,0.02,0.02
Croat_Croatia_Central,30.20,33.91,14.98,7.32,9.69, 1.11,0.84,0.23,0.35,0.44,0.66,0.05,0.28
Croat_Croatia,28.40,32.86,14.87,7.84,12.09,1.44,0. 43,0.31,0.56,0.57,0.42,0.10,0.11
Croat_B&H,26.13,32.36,15.57,8.35,13.61,1.56,0.63,0.29,0.48 ,0.46,0.35,0.07,0.09
Croat,28.03,32.78,14.98,7.92,12.34,1.46,0.46,0.31, 0.55,0.55,0.41,0.10,0.11
Thank you very much, really appreciated.
Lucas
05-11-2020, 05:54 PM
of course.
West Bosnia is Tropolje + 1 Banja Luka Croat
Croat_B&H_Bosnia,27.52,32.18,15.42,7.12,13.80,1.50,0.64,0. 29,0.62,0.30,0.43,0.07,0.12
Croat_B&H_Herzegovina,24.67,32.93,15.61,8.62,14.05,1.48,0. 72,0.19,0.45,0.60,0.41,0.03,0.07
Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia,26.20,31.95,15.68,9.32,12.99,1.71,0. 53,0.37,0.37,0.48,0.21,0.11,0.07
Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia,26.19,31.56,16.05,8.45,13.6 6,1.57,0.49,0.19,0.59,0.53,0.37,0.20,0.12
Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar,31.53,32.48,14.46,7.52, 10.28,1.15,0.62,0.29,0.53,0.55,0.31,0.14,0.12
Croat_Croatia_Zagorje,31.65,34.32,13.07,7.78,8.75, 1.54,0.74,0.55,0.29,0.82,0.23,0.09,0.16
Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner,26.02,32.70,15.67,7.51,14.51,1.76,0.19,0.4 6,0.21,0.38,0.51,0.07,0.02
Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj,26.92,32.68,15.74,7.65,13.07,1.54,0.31,0.25,0 .54,0.54,0.52,0.14,0.09
Croat_Croatia_Slavonia,28.33,32.94,13.58,8.45,12.7 5,1.27,0.05,0.24,1.29,0.73,0.34,0.02,0.02
Croat_Croatia_Central,30.20,33.91,14.98,7.32,9.69, 1.11,0.84,0.23,0.35,0.44,0.66,0.05,0.28
Croat_Croatia,28.40,32.86,14.87,7.84,12.09,1.44,0. 43,0.31,0.56,0.57,0.42,0.10,0.11
Croat_B&H,26.13,32.36,15.57,8.35,13.61,1.56,0.63,0.29,0.48 ,0.46,0.35,0.07,0.09
Croat,28.03,32.78,14.98,7.92,12.34,1.46,0.46,0.31, 0.55,0.55,0.41,0.10,0.11
Yes, adding in progress:)
What I noticed is pretty even amount of Slavic (Baltic) score in all regions with pretty small 1-2% variation. Much bigger difference is in north atlantic and med input.
Northern half of Croatia has visibly more N.Atlantic and less Med input compared to southerners. This can be reason for difference in pigmentation too.
vbnetkhio
05-11-2020, 06:56 PM
minimum and maximum values:
North_AtlanticBalticWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRed_ SeaSouth_AsianEast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceanian Northeast_AfrSub-Saharan
19.7422.519.263.124.7800000000
36.9340.4621.212.9219.055.574.171.592.031.711.651. 181.01
North_Atlantic- the lowest in Herzegovina and the Dalmatian Hinterland, highest in Gorski Kotar.
Baltic - lowest, 22-24, in a Dalmatian and an Istrian who have a strong North Italian or Illyrian shift, the Highest, 39-40 in an Istrian and a Kvarner+Dalmatian result. So, Istrians have a huge range, but they average out somewhere near Serbs and South Croats.
West Med, East_Med, Red_Sea- the highest in Herzegovina, Dalmatia and Istria, the lowest in Zagorje and Gorski Kotar.
West_Asian, South_Asian, East_Asian, Siberian, Amerindian, Oceanian- seem randomly distributed.
22-24% Baltic in ethnic Croats?
vbnetkhio
05-11-2020, 07:36 PM
22-24% Baltic in ethnic Croats?
yes, remember this result:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281473-Croat-from-Zadar-gedmatch-results
Yes, such results also can appear in Istria. Janjevci also have low Baltic but that must be because of mixing with Catholic Albanians.
So that is recent Italian and Albanian ancestry?
CommonSense
05-11-2020, 07:46 PM
So that is recent Italian and Albanian ancestry?
That man has no recent foreign ancestry and doesn't match any Italians or Albanians. His wife who is from the same island has an opposite component ratio, which is really odd, but that's just the way things are.
So that is recent Italian and Albanian ancestry?
These samples from Istria and Dalmatian island can be Illyrian remnants or Venetian influence, not sure. Their surnames are native for long time there.
But such people are rare
Mingle
05-11-2020, 07:52 PM
of course.
West Bosnia is Tropolje + 1 Banja Luka Croat
Croat_B&H_Bosnia,27.52,32.18,15.42,7.12,13.80,1.50,0.64,0. 29,0.62,0.30,0.43,0.07,0.12
Croat_B&H_Herzegovina,24.67,32.93,15.61,8.62,14.05,1.48,0. 72,0.19,0.45,0.60,0.41,0.03,0.07
Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia,26.20,31.95,15.68,9.32,12.99,1.71,0. 53,0.37,0.37,0.48,0.21,0.11,0.07
Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia,26.19,31.56,16.05,8.45,13.6 6,1.57,0.49,0.19,0.59,0.53,0.37,0.20,0.12
Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar,31.53,32.48,14.46,7.52, 10.28,1.15,0.62,0.29,0.53,0.55,0.31,0.14,0.12
Croat_Croatia_Zagorje,31.65,34.32,13.07,7.78,8.75, 1.54,0.74,0.55,0.29,0.82,0.23,0.09,0.16
Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner,26.02,32.70,15.67,7.51,14.51,1.76,0.19,0.4 6,0.21,0.38,0.51,0.07,0.02
Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj,26.92,32.68,15.74,7.65,13.07,1.54,0.31,0.25,0 .54,0.54,0.52,0.14,0.09
Croat_Croatia_Slavonia,28.33,32.94,13.58,8.45,12.7 5,1.27,0.05,0.24,1.29,0.73,0.34,0.02,0.02
Croat_Croatia_Central,30.20,33.91,14.98,7.32,9.69, 1.11,0.84,0.23,0.35,0.44,0.66,0.05,0.28
Croat_Croatia,28.40,32.86,14.87,7.84,12.09,1.44,0. 43,0.31,0.56,0.57,0.42,0.10,0.11
Croat_B&H,26.13,32.36,15.57,8.35,13.61,1.56,0.63,0.29,0.48 ,0.46,0.35,0.07,0.09
Croat,28.03,32.78,14.98,7.92,12.34,1.46,0.46,0.31, 0.55,0.55,0.41,0.10,0.11
Wouldn't the Banja Luka Croat be part of the "Croat_B&H_Bosnia" average with "Croat_B&H_Tropolje" being its own average? Which regions of Bosnia are the Bosnian Croat samples from?
vbnetkhio
05-11-2020, 08:03 PM
Wouldn't the Banja Luka Croat be part of the "Croat_B&H_Bosnia" average with "Croat_B&H_Tropolje" being its own average? Which regions of Bosnia are the Bosnian Croat samples from?
Croat_B&H_Bosnia is proper Bosnia, and West Bosnia is Tropolje and Bosnian Krajina, these regions used to be a part of Croatia in the middle ages, and they have some ties to Chakavian Croats. But the components turned out to be pretty similar.
Distance to: Feiichy_Father
2.39046021 Croat
2.39685210 Croat_Croatia
3.00935209 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
3.04886864 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
3.22494021 Hungarian_Alfold
3.22899365 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
3.43129713 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
3.56393041 Croat_B&H
3.60272119 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
3.76193260 Hungarian
3.82510131 Moldova_North
3.90891289 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
4.05362259 Slovenian
4.09924495 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.25617199 Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner
4.32447685 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.32868340 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
4.41056686 Serb_B&H
4.48023785 Hungarian_Budapest
4.56132656 Bosniak
4.71285448 Hungarian_Szekely
4.88577145 Bosniak_Sarajevo
4.89108972 Hungarian_Transdanubia
4.89438454 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
4.96456443 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
Distance to: Feiichy
4.57193613 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.58251023 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
4.67939706 Hungarian_Budapest
4.75888632 Slovenian
4.83755382 Hungarian
4.88665530 Croat_Croatia
4.90199106 Hungarian_Alfold
5.06918139 Croat
5.30598718 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
5.35612192 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.41770247 Moldova_North
5.54846826 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
5.72277031 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
5.88796550 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.06864894 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.47639560 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
6.47702864 Croat_B&H
6.59247298 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.68619473 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.75591943 Hungarian_Szekely
6.79453457 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
7.05248638 Hungarian_Northern
7.20816204 Serb_B&H
7.36825624 Bosniak
7.52299825 Bosniak_Sarajevo
Distance to: Stears
4.53681606 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
4.88169028 Moldova_North
5.11624863 Croat_Croatia
5.17453380 Croat
5.19578764 Hungarian_Transylvania
5.28762388 Hungarian_Alfold
5.29694720 Hungarian
5.46409187 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
5.57366535 Hungarian_Budapest
5.77534415 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
5.81944896 Hungarian_Szekely
5.90746985 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.00194968 Croat_Croatia_Central
6.07785324 Croat_B&H
6.14769519 Slovenian
6.17779087 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.18825212 Hungarian_Transdanubia
6.23660966 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
6.23872391 Bosniak_Sarajevo
6.25715840 Hungarian_Csango
6.32157417 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
6.39411448 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.41018720 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
6.68739112 Bosniak
6.92913415 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
My father has really low distance, he is really totally typical as I said.
Distance to: Feiichy_Mother
4.12447572 Croat_Croatia
4.17258680 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.21607638 Croat
4.49534766 Hungarian
4.51794201 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
4.54173492 Slovenian
4.56745521 Hungarian_Alfold
4.58422294 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
4.59786283 Hungarian_Budapest
4.64130370 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.66962525 Moldova_North
4.89624346 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
5.06069165 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
5.23648737 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
5.30737462 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.34838293 Croat_B&H
5.42142048 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
5.42372746 Hungarian_Szekely
5.49634424 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
5.78504970 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
5.80521317 Serb_B&H
5.95723929 Bosniak
5.98903164 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
6.14971783 Bosniak_Sarajevo
6.15294239 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
Hungarian friend
Distance to: Blanka
5.71138822 Hungarian_Northern
5.98705203 Hungarian_Transdanubia
6.13484264 Hungarian
6.20278969 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
6.32041927 Hungarian_Budapest
6.39176359 Slovenian
6.53045329 Hungarian_Alfold
6.58059268 Croat_Croatia_Central
6.64959397 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
7.07675476 Slovak
7.33098220 Czech
7.53270204 Croat_Croatia
7.85788776 Croat
8.04739088 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
8.12427843 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
8.59872084 East_German
8.64211201 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
8.76073627 Austrian
9.42455304 German_east
9.48986301 Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner
9.50175773 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
9.55523764 Hungarian_Transylvania
9.74090858 Croat_B&H
9.94146367 Moldova_North
10.01104904 Hungarian_Szekely
Distance to: Hrvoje
4.36715010 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
4.53169943 Hungarian_Budapest
4.65825074 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
4.87966277 Hungarian_Transdanubia
4.89602618 Hungarian
5.03910706 Croat_Croatia_Central
5.41980090 Slovenian
5.43707757 Hungarian_Alfold
5.51375553 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
5.51695568 Croat_Croatia
5.78439279 Croat
6.48189527 Hungarian_Transylvania
6.57380407 Moldova_North
6.74423457 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
6.84136897 Hungarian_Northern
7.09818991 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
7.14953360 Hungarian_Szekely
7.42167771 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
7.44879856 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
7.47845572 Croat_B&H
7.54295035 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
7.67504424 Slovak
7.92062498 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
8.11539894 Austrian
8.24016990 Bulgarian_Dupnitsa
Lucas
05-12-2020, 07:51 AM
Croat_B&H_Bosnia is proper Bosnia, and West Bosnia is Tropolje and Bosnian Krajina, these regions used to be a part of Croatia in the middle ages, and they have some ties to Chakavian Croats. But the components turned out to be pretty similar.
If Banja Luka is important Croat are in Bosnia? On ethnic maps it is mainly Serbian with some Muslim.
vbnetkhio
05-12-2020, 02:40 PM
If Banja Luka is important Croat are in Bosnia? On ethnic maps it is mainly Serbian with some Muslim.
yeah, there isn't a lot of Croats in Bosnian Krajina. Croat_West_Bosnia is a dozen from Livno Croats and 1 from Banja Luka, theat's pretty representative i guess.
yeah, there isn't a lot of Croats in Bosnian Krajina. Croat_West_Bosnia is a dozen from Livno Croats and 1 from Banja Luka, theat's pretty representative i guess.
Also from Tomislavgrad, sample provided by Ljubic.
PCA, courtesy of Vbnethkio
https://i.imgur.com/WlZFew6.png
MoroLP
06-16-2020, 04:23 AM
Northern Istrian sample which already sent to Feiichy. Did it change the Istrian-Kvarner average a bit?
4.08050654 Hungarian_Northern
4.53032145 Hungarian_Alfold
4.58521838 Slovenian
4.76716897 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.81700771 Hungarian
5.14232438 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
5.35430559 Hungarian_Budapest
5.45167842 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.47356374 Croat_Croatia
5.52358756 Slovak
5.72097894 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
5.76103289 Croat
5.85831034 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
6.19970967 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.48538357 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.78166646 Czech
6.79457872 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
7.39759420 Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner
7.51623576 Moldova_North
7.56230124 Croat_B&H
8.01921443 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
8.20196318 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
8.39988095 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
8.52664198 Hungarian_Transylvania
8.60577713 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
At Eurogenes K15 World Map plots at letter "S" of Austrian.
Northern Istrian sample which already sent to Feiichy. Did it change the Istrian-Kvarner average a bit?
Didn't add it yet, as I am waiting for one Slavonian sample too and maybe it's best to send both to Vbnethkio. Because he will need to update general averages too which is quite complex because it's based on percentage of population which speak 3 major dialects (pred WWs I think) to be most realistic possible :)
If you get any more samples, send them to PM. They will all be added to averages, don't worry.
vbnetkhio
06-18-2020, 02:29 PM
Northern Istrian sample which already sent to Feiichy. Did it change the Istrian-Kvarner average a bit?
4.08050654 Hungarian_Northern
4.53032145 Hungarian_Alfold
4.58521838 Slovenian
4.76716897 Croat_Croatia_Central
4.81700771 Hungarian
5.14232438 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
5.35430559 Hungarian_Budapest
5.45167842 Hungarian_Transdanubia
5.47356374 Croat_Croatia
5.52358756 Slovak
5.72097894 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
5.76103289 Croat
5.85831034 Croat_Croatia_Slavonia
6.19970967 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.48538357 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.78166646 Czech
6.79457872 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
7.39759420 Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner
7.51623576 Moldova_North
7.56230124 Croat_B&H
8.01921443 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
8.20196318 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
8.39988095 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
8.52664198 Hungarian_Transylvania
8.60577713 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
At Eurogenes K15 World Map plots at letter "S" of Austrian.
these samples are currently in the average:
https://i.imgur.com/GamgkgA.png
MoroLP
06-18-2020, 07:12 PM
these samples are currently in the average:
https://i.imgur.com/GamgkgA.png
To this you need to add the one above:
NIstria,31.10,35.66,14.50,4.52,12.33,0,0,0,1.19,0, 0,0.69,0
vbnetkhio
06-18-2020, 07:27 PM
To this you need to add the one above:
NIstria,31.10,35.66,14.50,4.52,12.33,0,0,0,1.19,0, 0,0.69,0
new average:
Istria&Kvarner,26.65,33.07,15.52,7.14,14.24,1.54,0.16,0.4 0,0.33,0.33,0.45,0.15,0.02
new average:
Istria&Kvarner,26.65,33.07,15.52,7.14,14.24,1.54,0.16,0.4 0,0.33,0.33,0.45,0.15,0.02
Could you update Croat and Croat Croatia average too? Or tell me how to do it so I can too :p it seems bit complex I agree with your method.
vbnetkhio
06-19-2020, 04:58 PM
Could you update Croat and Croat Croatia average too? Or tell me how to do it so I can too :p it seems bit complex I agree with your method.
it was based on Kajkavian speakers clustering away from the rest. But now Istria turned out to be quite north plotting too, maybe you should do a new weighed average with diferrent weights for each region.
it was based on Kajkavian speakers clustering away from the rest. But now Istria turned out to be quite north plotting too, maybe you should do a new weighed average with diferrent weights for each region.
PM all database (samples i sent you + what you and commonsense or mingle collected) pls. My PC is a mess. I need to know exact sample number to work with aevrages. :p
vbnetkhio
06-20-2020, 05:07 AM
PM all database (samples i sent you + what you and commonsense or mingle collected) pls. My PC is a mess. I need to know exact sample number to work with aevrages. :p
i sent it.
i recommend you average out the results from the same town uploaded by the same email, and treat them as one result. like the kits from Vrdi for example.
MoroLP
12-01-2020, 01:04 AM
What happened to all the regional averages? East is Slavonia? North is Zagorje + Međimurje? Littoral is confusing, is it well Littoral? What happened to Dalmatia then or it includes both Littoral (+Istria?) and the Dalmatian region? The northern and southern Adriatic coast shouldn't be put together. Names are a bit confusing, uncommon for Croatian regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_Croatia). What is the sample size? New averages:
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina,25.53,32.41,15.86,8.50,13.91,1.38,0.59 ,0.25,0.56,0.46,0.35,0.04,0.11
Croat_East,27.42,34.37,13.89,8.65,11.79,1.56,0.03, 0.14,1.16,0.62,0.35,0.02,0.01
Croat_Littoral,26.81,32.09,15.78,8.11,13.54,1.40,0 .33,0.24,0.56,0.49,0.39,0.13,0.11
Croat_north,31.28,33.43,14.32,7.22,9.91,1.18,0.61, 0.31,0.54,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.13
Croat,28.38,33.18,14.95,7.74,11.78,1.42,0.50,0.26, 0.56,0.53,0.45,0.10,0.13
What happened to all the regional averages? East is Slavonia? North is Zagorje + Međimurje? Littoral is confusing, is it well Littoral? What happened to Dalmatia then or it includes both Littoral (+Istria?) and the Dalmatian region? The northern and southern Adriatic coast shouldn't be put together. Names are a bit confusing, uncommon for Croatian regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_Croatia). What is the sample size? New averages:
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina,25.53,32.41,15.86,8.50,13.91,1.38,0.59 ,0.25,0.56,0.46,0.35,0.04,0.11
Croat_East,27.42,34.37,13.89,8.65,11.79,1.56,0.03, 0.14,1.16,0.62,0.35,0.02,0.01
Croat_Littoral,26.81,32.09,15.78,8.11,13.54,1.40,0 .33,0.24,0.56,0.49,0.39,0.13,0.11
Croat_north,31.28,33.43,14.32,7.22,9.91,1.18,0.61, 0.31,0.54,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.13
Croat,28.38,33.18,14.95,7.74,11.78,1.42,0.50,0.26, 0.56,0.53,0.45,0.10,0.13
Hey. We decided to decrease number of averages since lot of them were very similar to each other, and that way create more reliable averages with much bigger sample size.
Divison was proposed by Vbnethkio and I agreed, although I had slightly different idea (my idea was Panonnian, Dinaric and Adriatic)
Litorral (Istria+Kvarner+Lika+Dalmatia) - sample size 48
North (Zagorje+Central+ Gorski kotar) - sample size 41
Bosnia-Herzegovina (Bosnia_proper+West_Bosnia+Herzegovina) - sample size 52
East (Slavonia) - sample size 7
General average is weighted according to percentage of regional populations in total population historically.
Any luck getting 70 Slavonian samples?
Lucas
12-01-2020, 11:01 AM
I posted it in Vahaduo thread but should be rather here.
She has all 4 grandparents kajkavian Croats
So, her father is from Zlatar, Krapinsko/zagorska županija
Her mother is half from Cestica, on border with Slovenia and half from mursko središče on border with Slovenia and Hungary
Population
North_Atlantic 32.54 Pct
Baltic 33.63 Pct
West_Med 14.34 Pct
West_Asian 6.01 Pct
East_Med 9.51 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.55 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.54 Pct
Oceanian 1.3 Pct
Northeast_African 0.58 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 3.55
2 East_German 5.78
3 Croatian 5.83
4 Austrian 6.17
5 Moldavian 8.24
6 South_Polish 9.03
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.96
8 Serbian 10.09
9 Ukrainian 10.74
10 Polish 12.47
11 West_German 13.7
12 Romanian 14.28
13 North_Swedish 14.88
14 Southwest_Russian 14.97
15 South_Dutch 15
16 North_German 15.23
17 Southwest_Finnish 15.39
18 Ukrainian_Belgorod 15.42
19 Russian_Smolensk 15.64
20 Estonian_Polish 16.09
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.8% Croatian + 22.2% Southeast_English @ 2.48
2 60.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 39.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.69
3 62.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.7
4 61.3% Southwest_Russian + 38.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.75
5 78.9% Croatian + 21.1% Orcadian @ 2.76
6 80.1% Croatian + 19.9% Southwest_English @ 2.81
7 77.8% Croatian + 22.2% North_Dutch @ 2.85
8 80.7% Croatian + 19.3% West_Scottish @ 2.89
9 74.9% South_Polish + 25.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.9
10 77.6% Croatian + 22.4% Danish @ 2.91
11 73.1% South_Polish + 26.9% Portuguese @ 2.91
12 74.8% South_Polish + 25.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.92
13 72.7% Croatian + 27.3% West_German @ 2.93
14 80.1% Croatian + 19.9% Irish @ 2.96
15 63.3% Southwest_Russian + 36.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.97
16 62.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 37.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.97
17 50.3% East_German + 49.7% Croatian @ 2.98
18 51.9% Croatian + 48.1% Austrian @ 2.99
19 76.1% South_Polish + 23.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.03
Reason why Istria&Kvarner was grouped with Lika and Dalmatia was the fact it was not different enough from them, at least based on sample size we have so far.
And it's mostly Istria due to history of southern migration + Italian input which pull it south (although it has very northern/Slavic shifted samples too).
If we had more samples from Kvarner, I think that average would be more distinct from Dalmatia & Lika because Kvarner is more native and received almost no southern migration compared to Istria (except Novi Vinodolski hinterland - Bunjevci). I posted sample from Rijeka recently who is Slovenian like genetically (1/8 German but I include 1/8 foreign admix, that's my upper limit-even without such input he should be Slovenian like)
So, until we get more samples from western Croatia I think Littoral average makes sense, all three averages which made it were similar. (and BiH is pretty similar as well).
Gorski kotar on the other hand is distinct and very central Euro as expected so it was merged into north Croatia togheder with Zarorje, Prigorje, Međimurje, Podravina, wider Zagreb region etc.
My idea was the following: Dinaric (BiH and Lika, because Lika population has lot of ties with BiH Croats, almost same genetics too)
Adriatic (Istria,Kvarner,Dalmatia)
Panonnian(Gorski kotar, Central, Zagorje, Slavonia)
I wanted to camouflage Slavonian average by mergining it into Panonnian because it's weakest average we have - only 7 samples. So put togheder with other northerners it would be much stronger.
But maybe Vbnethkio idea was better, because Slavonians are not the same as Kajkavians - less western Euro input and more eastern, they are more like NE Bosnians).
I'm happy Vbn made these averages for us, I could never do it alone.
MoroLP
12-01-2020, 02:13 PM
It is fine to decrease number of averages as discussed before, but this has been done with some strange reasoning:
1) The naming, Littoral (Primorje) is a separate region, especially in English language, which is rarely or never used in the meaning of Istria, Lika and Dalmatia. This is some strange mixture of medieval and modern appellations. People from diaspora are certainly going to be confused. A more reasonable name would be Adriatic. However, it is confusing to have averages named in a different manner; by cardinal directions (North, East), regional name (Littoral), and country (BiH). It needs only a single and easily understandable style. The averag "_north" obviously needs letter "n" in all caps "N".
2) Only because a sub-regional average is more closer to another it doesn't mean Gk should be grouped with North average, neither is in the continental or Pannonian part of Croatia. Exactly otherwise, considering the geographical proximity Gk should be grouped with Kvarner and Istria, perhaps even with Lika, making a "West" average.
3) Averages should been according to this Mrsic et al. map (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-Croatian-regions_fig1_221889294). According to it we should have "West" or "Littoral" (Istria, Kvarner, Gk, Lika), "North" or "Pannonia" (Central, Zagorje, Medimurje), "East" or "Slavonia" (Slavonia), and "South" or "Dalmatia" (Dalmatia). Of course, fifth average would be "Bosnia-Herzegovina", and we would have a national average for Croats from Croatia and another cumulative for all Croats (I doubt other national averages are done considering samples from foreign countries). To me that's most simple, understandable and of interest to everyone. Can you or Vbn do this instead or at least try to see current results?
No, I still did not hear anything about those Slavonian samples.
vbnetkhio
12-01-2020, 02:59 PM
3) Averages should been according to this Mrsic et al. map (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-Croatian-regions_fig1_221889294). According to it we should have "West" or "Littoral" (Istria, Kvarner, Gk, Lika), "North" or "Pannonia" (Central, Zagorje, Medimurje), "East" or "Slavonia" (Slavonia), and "South" or "Dalmatia" (Dalmatia). Of course, fifth average would be "Bosnia-Herzegovina", and we would have a national average for Croats from Croatia and another cumulative for all Croats. That's most simple, understandable and of interest to everyone. Can you or Vbn do this instead or at least try to see current results?
I had this map in mind, except I merged Southern and Western into "Littoral", and Northern and Central (and Gorski Kotar) into "North", because they look genetically identical, with the current samples at least.
There is no need to include multiple averages which represent the same genetic cluster, because then they just overflood the oracle.
maybe a map should be included along with the oracle so the users can see the geographic range of each region.
Dunai
12-01-2020, 04:11 PM
It is fine to decrease number of averages as discussed before, but this has been done with some strange reasoning:
1) The naming, Littoral (Primorje) is a separate region, especially in English language, which is rarely or never used in the meaning of Istria, Lika and Dalmatia. This is some strange mixture of medieval and modern appellations. People from diaspora are certainly going to be confused. A more reasonable name would be Adriatic. However, it is confusing to have averages named in a different manner; by cardinal directions (North, East), regional name (Littoral), and country (BiH). It needs only a single and easily understandable style. The averag "_north" obviously needs letter "n" in all caps "N".
2) Only because a sub-regional average is more closer to another it doesn't mean Gk should be grouped with North average, neither is in the continental or Pannonian part of Croatia. Exactly otherwise, considering the geographical proximity Gk should be grouped with Kvarner and Istria, perhaps even with Lika, making a "West" average.
3) Averages should been according to this Mrsic et al. map (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-Croatian-regions_fig1_221889294). According to it we should have "West" or "Littoral" (Istria, Kvarner, Gk, Lika), "North" or "Pannonia" (Central, Zagorje, Medimurje), "East" or "Slavonia" (Slavonia), and "South" or "Dalmatia" (Dalmatia). Of course, fifth average would be "Bosnia-Herzegovina", and we would have a national average for Croats from Croatia and another cumulative for all Croats (I doubt other national averages are done considering samples from foreign countries). To me that's most simple, understandable and of interest to everyone. Can you or Vbn do this instead or at least try to see current results?
No, I still did not hear anything about those Slavonian samples.
For example Hungarian average takes into consideration also those from neighboring countries, but in a weighted manner based on regional population, so it would be representative of the real numbers of Hungarians and not the number of samples collected. As we know from certain regions you have more or less samples, even if the population of that region can be either much higher or much lower. It surely takes more math and usage of equations, but ultimately it's not super difficult to create weighted national averages.
Some toughts I have:
Croat-Croatia average is unnecessary. It doesn't say much, since lot of Croats from Croatia will be closer to BiH Croats than to northern Croats. One average for all Croats is enough.
I am even against BiH Croat average and wish to merge them with rest of population like Serbian averages have.
Gorski Kotar can't be grouped in Lika because Lika population is Balkanic in origin and culture. They are pretty unrelated. And ofcourse GK is in continental Croatia, even Lika is, it ain't on the sea.
They can be grouped with Istria and Kvarner though, but without Lika.
It's difficult to make satisfactory regions because of shape of Croatia and complex history.
New idea:
South (BiH, Dalmatia & Lika) - basically everything up to Sava river. These people are made of same stock.
West (Istria, Kvarner, Gorski kotar)
East (Slavonia)
North (Zagorje and Central)
+ one common weighted average. This is most natural division not based on political borders, but topography, history and culture.
Even though I'm happy with current averages too. Just curious to hear some feedback.
vbnetkhio
12-01-2020, 06:14 PM
Some toughts I have:
Croat-Croatia average is unnecessary. It doesn't say much, since lot of Croats from Croatia will be closer to BiH Croats than to northern Croats. One average for all Croats is enough.
I am even against BiH Croat average and wish to merge them with rest of population like Serbian averages have.
I agree, and it should have been removed already, unless Lucas forgot to delete it.
New idea:
South (BiH, Dalmatia & Lika) - basically everything up to Sava river. These people are made of same stock.
West (Istria, Kvarner, Gorski kotar)
East (Slavonia)
North (Zagorje and Central)
+ one common weighted average. This is most natural division not based on political borders, but topography, history and culture.
Even though I'm happy with current averages too. Just curious to hear some feedback.
wouldn't the West be artificial, since Gorski Kotar clusters with the north and Istria with the South?
how about West(Istria-Kvarner), South(Lika-Senj+Dalmatia) and a separate one for Bosnian Croats.
because Dalmatia and Herzegovina plot away from each other, and they have large sample sizes, so it's valid.
Dalmatia is a bit closer to Istria than to Herzegovina.
https://i.imgur.com/iBgYLR3.png
I agree, and it should have been removed already, unless Lucas forgot to delete it.
wouldn't the West be artificial, since Gorski Kotar clusters with the north and Istria with the South?
how about West(Istria-Kvarner), South(Lika-Senj+Dalmatia) and a separate one for Bosnian Croats.
because Dalmatia and Herzegovina plot away from each other, and they have large sample sizes, so it's valid.
Dalmatia is a bit closer to Istria than to Herzegovina.
https://i.imgur.com/iBgYLR3.png
It was removed, but I see no need to add it back.
Yeah, Gorski Kotar is pretty different from Istria. Kvarner shouldn't be so southern like Istria, but it's undersampled.
Istria has entire Croatian range - both north and south Croat genetic profiles can be found there.
What about my original idea than?
Adriatic - Istria, Kvarner, Dalmatia
Panonnian - current north we have incl. Gorski kotar, because lot of them descend from settled Panonnian Croats from Zagreb area + Slovene-German forest workers. That's why they are genetically north Croat like
and + Slavonia
Dinaric Alps - BiH + Lika. Lika simply belongs with BiH.
Celine
12-01-2020, 06:33 PM
Wait, wait, wait... North is unique.
Reason why I'd add Slavonia into Panonnian is because average is as you said weak, so no point to have it as standalone until we get something better?
My labels would align with 3 Croatian cultural zones also described here:
Pannonian, Dinaric and Adriatic
http://croatia.eu/index.php?view=article&id=48&lang=2
It's hard to make geographic labels to perfectly follow genetics anyway, so maybe this could be solution.
vbnetkhio
12-01-2020, 06:41 PM
It was removed, but I see no need to add it back.
Yeah, Gorski Kotar is pretty different from Istria. Kvarner shouldn't be so southern like Istria, but it's undersampled.
Istria has entire Croatian range - both north and south Croat genetic profiles can be found there.
What about my original idea than?
Adriatic - Istria, Kvarner, Dalmatia
Panonnian - current north we have incl. Gorski kotar, because lot of them descend from settled Panonnian Croats from Zagreb area = Slovene-German forest workers. That's why they are genetically north Croat like
Dinaric Alps - BiH + Lika. Lika simply belongs with BiH.
i agree, but Slavonia also is actually closer to the south than the north, so i wouldn't add it to a Pannonian region together with the north.
and the Dalmatian Hinterland should be separated from the Coast, if you still have that data. i rembmber you originally made a Coastal and a Hinterland average.
it doesn't make sense that the actual area of the Dinara mountain is Adriatic and not Dinaric.
i agree, but Slavonia also is actually closer to the south than the north, so i wouldn't add it to a Pannonian region together with the north.
and the Dalmatian Hinterland should be separated from the Coast, if you still have that data. i rembmber you originally made a Coastal and a Hinterland average.
it doesn't make sense that the actual area of the Dinara mountain is Adriatic and not Dinaric.
:P
I don't have this average anymore :(
I'm happy with your averages, just speculating.
There is no perfect division.
MoroLP
12-02-2020, 12:46 AM
New idea:
South (BiH, Dalmatia & Lika) - basically everything up to Sava river. These people are made of same stock.
West (Istria, Kvarner, Gorski kotar)
East (Slavonia)
North (Zagorje and Central)
+ one common weighted average. This is most natural division not based on political borders, but topography, history and culture.
Nice, this seems most reasonable considering geography and regional historical and administrative borders and migrations we can agree on. Your original idea also had issues, this tackles well both Gk, Lika and BiH. One national average from this regions is fine with me.
Update: but on second thought, Lika is still a bit confusing because we are again not dealing with geographical proximity. Do we have samples from Senj? It is never perceived and cannot be part of South Croatia. Just look at regionalization maps (https://www.google.com/search?q=regionalizacija+hrvatske&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinu9_emK7tAhVLmYsKHVbODSkQ_AUoAXoECBIQA w&biw=1536&bih=722#imgrc=y1uzyMhgkEYhtM) of Croatia. Lika+Senj are always perceived as part of Western Croatia. Is Lika+Senj so much Southern shifted compared to Istria+Kvarner+Gk? Yet again, we all know that Lika was heavily depopulated with very few natives compared to other regions and was exclusively repopulated from BiH and Dalmatia which are "South" and also at Dinaric Alps... Yeah, you're right, it's best to keep Lika at "South", as you said it's everything up to Sava river and understandable. Is it settled then?
Wouldn't the West be artificial, since Gorski Kotar clusters with the north and Istria with the South?
There's nothing artificial about it, that's simply Western Croatia. We need regional averages and not averages done according to populations genetical proximity rather than geographical proximity. As well, current Istria is biased as lacks samples from central and northwestern part which again most probably will be more Northern shifted.
...how about West(Istria-Kvarner), South(Lika-Senj+Dalmatia) and a separate one for Bosnian Croats.
because Dalmatia and Herzegovina plot away from each other, and they have large sample sizes, so it's valid.
Dalmatia is a bit closer to Istria than to Herzegovina.
https://i.imgur.com/iBgYLR3.png
Again, it doesn't matter if they plot away from each other, we need regional averages. If, compared to regional averages above, we're going to have a separate average for Bosnian Croats then it's not reasonable anymore to have Lika+Senj in "South" instead of "West" as Lika+Senj has less proximity with Dalmatia then Dalmatia has with BiH (especially Herzegovina), and Dalmatia is the true and only "South" for Croatia anyway.
It's simple or we are going to have a same criteria for all regions or not with perhaps a single exception. The obvious exception we are dealing with is Lika+Senj. Geographically doesn't belong to "South" and must be "West" even if Dalmatia+BiH are or not put together at "South". So, discuss and decide:
1) South (Dalmatia)
2) South (Dalmatia, Lika+Senj)
3) South (Dalmatia, BiH)
4) South (Dalmatia, Lika+Senj, BiH)
vbnetkhio
12-02-2020, 12:09 PM
There's nothing artificial about it, that's simply Western Croatia. We need regional averages and not averages done according to populations genetical proximity rather than geographical proximity.
well that's where we disagree, but you and Feiichy are the Croatian members here and you should decide.
MoroLP
12-02-2020, 01:20 PM
well that's where we disagree, but you and Feiichy are the Croatian members here and you should decide.
No worries, it's your opinion, but it is strange we disagree on such a thing because it's simply factually wrong. I didn't expect that from you because you know better than that. Where's any logic artifically putting Gk in "North" average with Zagorje+Central while saying it's artificial to place Gk in "West" average where exclusively belongs? Strange thinking.
Your opinion regarding "South" is welcome.
Insuperable
12-02-2020, 01:47 PM
Jesus Christ just make
Southern Croatia (Dalmatia)
Lika
Istria, Primorje and Gorski Kotar
Central and Northern Croatia
Eastern Croatia (Slavonia)
B&H Croats
Lucas
12-02-2020, 02:23 PM
Maybe it will help. Regional west Balkan samples in K36 (not identical sheet like in K13 because some samples exist only in K13 form). As we see there is Croat and Serb cluster separated. But Croat join Central European cluster which is expected. BTW for Istria average I added to existing kit my own sample which was not posted yet maybe it is too Italian shifted.
https://i.imgur.com/KS5sIKE.png
vbnetkhio
12-02-2020, 04:24 PM
No worries, it's your opinion, but it is strange we disagree on such a thing because it's simply factually wrong. I didn't expect that from you because you know better than that. Where's any logic artifically putting Gk in "North" average with Zagorje+Central while saying it's artificial to place Gk in "West" average where exclusively belongs? Strange thinking.
Your opinion regarding "South" is welcome.
the question is what kind of averages do you want to make?
do you want to make an autosomal study of Croats by geographical regions, or do you want to make averages useful for the Vahaduo/oracle?
i think those 2 should be separated.
btw, do you use Excel?
MoroLP
12-03-2020, 01:04 AM
the question is what kind of averages do you want to make?
do you want to make an autosomal study of Croats by geographical regions, or do you want to make averages useful for the Vahaduo/oracle?
i think those 2 should be separated.
btw, do you use Excel?
Explain the difference. I think we need, as in common expectation, to have regional averages within factual regionalization. What kind of results these regional averages are gonna be it's up to the samples of individual regions - simple as that. Anything else is artificial interference in the aim to be useful, while we need faithful and truthful. What's the point of calculating percent of regional population to create a weighted regional and national average if counties and their regions aren't within their borders (and Gk is in a depopulation process anyway as people are moving to Rijeka more than a generation ago)? If people start using current averages what can they deduce about regional origin? Basically nothing because is misleading. Yes, I use Excel.
Explain the difference. I think we need, as in common expectation, to have regional averages within factual regionalization. What kind of results these regional averages are gonna be it's up to the samples of individual regions - simple as that. Anything else is artificial interference in the aim to be useful, while we need faithful and truthful. What's the point of calculating percent of regional population to create a weighted regional and national average if counties and their regions aren't within their borders (and Gk is in a depopulation process anyway as people are moving to Rijeka more than a generation ago)? If people start using current averages what can they deduce about regional origin? Basically nothing because is misleading. Yes, I use Excel.
Hey, Vbn is just trying to help. He made similar division for Serbian averages too.
It's very nice of him he does all this, because I can do averages only manually and can't do weighted ones at all.
So, would you agree on south (bih,dalm,lika), west(istra,kvarner,gk), north(zagorje,central) and east(slavonia) plus one common average?
vbnetkhio
12-03-2020, 03:04 PM
Explain the difference. I think we need, as in common expectation, to have regional averages within factual regionalization. What kind of results these regional averages are gonna be it's up to the samples of individual regions - simple as that. Anything else is artificial interference in the aim to be useful, while we need faithful and truthful. What's the point of calculating percent of regional population to create a weighted regional and national average if counties and their regions aren't within their borders (and Gk is in a depopulation process anyway as people are moving to Rijeka more than a generation ago)? If people start using current averages what can they deduce about regional origin? Basically nothing because is misleading. Yes, I use Excel.
this is a rough map of North Atlantic admixture in ethnic Croats in Croatia:
https://i.imgur.com/WwA3LTU.jpg
you think we should respect the borders of the "West Croatia" region, and it should look like this instead?
https://i.imgur.com/7v3eeUL.jpeg
vbnetkhio
12-03-2020, 03:24 PM
Hey, Vbn is just trying to help. He made similar division for Serbian averages too.
It's very nice of him he does all this, because I can do averages only manually and can't do weighted ones at all.
So, would you agree on south (bih,dalm,lika), west(istra,kvarner,gk), north(zagorje,central) and east(slavonia) plus one common average?
I think Gorski Kotar should be north, it's actually the best source we have for northern Croat genetics. The individual results range from Austrian-like to West Ukrainian-like and all combinations in between, because it's a large sample. The NW and Central data is much poorer, Gorski kotar fills in the gaps when you merge them.
MoroLP
12-03-2020, 06:35 PM
Reply with quote somehow isn't working.
@Feiichy, we're all thankful and respect Vbn's effort, but it's done in a strange manner. If baffles me then it's even more baffling to those who are less informed how these averages were calculated. Yes, I agree to those averages.
@Vbn, yes because West Croatia is West Croatia. Gk never was and never will be North, South or East. It is part of Western Croatia. If Gk samples are too many compared to others from Primorsko-goranska and Istarska county then they should be calculated accordingly to their population's percentage within the region (it's cca. 8% in Primorsko-goranska, together with Istarska is cca. 4%).
I think Gorski Kotar should be north, it's actually the best source we have for northern Croat genetics. The individual results range from Austrian-like to West Ukrainian-like and all combinations in between, because it's a large sample. The NW and Central data is much poorer, Gorski kotar fills in the gaps when you merge them.
You know why adding Gorski Kotar to west would make sense? Because I think natives from Istria (non štokavian newcomers and those that aren't mixed with Italians in west coast) and especially Kvarner will be more northern as we get more samples. This region had Celtic settlement, it's bordering Slovenia, I just think it's undertested so far or we have too little natives tested. Maybe I'm wrong but they should be naturally closer to north than south because native Croats there live there since initial Slavic settlement, they never went south. And they look often NE Italian, Slovenian or Austrian like (lot of Norids and Alpinids), so I think with more samples west should become more northern shifted (primarly trough increased north atlantic)
Scandal
12-03-2020, 07:15 PM
this is a rough map of North Atlantic admixture in ethnic Croats in Croatia:
https://i.imgur.com/WwA3LTU.jpg
you think we should respect the borders of the "West Croatia" region, and it should look like this instead?
https://i.imgur.com/7v3eeUL.jpeg
Why do those differences exist?
vbnetkhio
12-03-2020, 07:42 PM
@Vbn, yes because West Croatia is West Croatia. Gk never was and never will be North, South or East. It is part of Western Croatia.
I simply went by genetic criteria, not geographic. I did the same for the Serb averages.
By "North Croat" i didn't mean the population of the geographical region of North Croatia, I meant the genetic cluster of Gorski Kotar, Central and North Croatia. (which you can see on this PCA (https://i.imgur.com/nJ8D6MY.png))
But North Croat is a nicer and a more neutral name then "Kajkavian Croat", or something like that.
Germany is currenlty divided into West, East and North in the spreadsheet. Those are also genetic clusters, and not how Germany is usually geographically divided, and it works great for the Germans. I wanted to make something like that.
If Gk samples are too many compared to others from Primorsko-goranska and Istarska county then they should be calculated accordingly to their population's percentage within the region (it's cca. 8% in Primorsko-goranska, together with Istarska is cca. 4%).
I used these numbers for weighting:
Lika-Krbava 94663
Istria-Kvarner 263624
Gorski Kotar 76532
They are from somewhere between 1910 and 1930. Imo it makes no sense to weigh by current populations, because, for example, our genetic data for Istria-Kvarner includes only pure,rural people from there, while the current population number for Istria-Kvarner includes settlers from all over, so those 2 aren't the same variable and shouldn't be multiplied, i think we can atleast agree on that?
I used these numbers for weighting:
Lika-Krbava 94663
Istria-Kvarner 263624
Gorski Kotar 76532
They are from somewhere between 1910 and 1930. Imo it makes no sense to weigh by current populations, because, for example, our genetic data for Istria-Kvarner includes only pure,rural people from there, while the current population number for Istria-Kvarner includes settlers from all over, so those 2 aren't the same variable and shouldn't be multiplied, i think we can atleast agree on that?
Yes, absolutely. For example in Rijeka metro region vast majority of population isn't native to Kvarner and wouldn't be qualified to be included in database for western Croatia. Similar situation is in Pula.
Your numbers are very fine, modern distribution should not be used at any cost!
Please continue to do weighted data as you did until now, don't change anything.
vbnetkhio
12-03-2020, 08:09 PM
You know why adding Gorski Kotar to west would make sense? Because I think natives from Istria (non štokavian newcomers and those that aren't mixed with Italians in west coast) and especially Kvarner will be more northern as we get more samples. This region had Celtic settlement, it's bordering Slovenia, I just think it's undertested so far or we have too little natives tested. Maybe I'm wrong but they should be naturally closer to north than south because native Croats there live there since initial Slavic settlement, they never went south. And they look often NE Italian, Slovenian or Austrian like (lot of Norids and Alpinids), so I think with more samples west should become more northern shifted (primarly trough increased north atlantic)
yeah, that makes sense. and the north/central Croat sample isn't bad on it's own, it would just be more valid with Gorski Kotar in there.
i noticed some more samples on gedmatch which are very probably Istrian, i'll check their results and post them, maybe we can make some conclusions based on them.
Why do those differences exist?
It's either:
A) north-central Croatia pre-Slavic population was not Balkan like but central Euro like (more Celtic than Illyrian)
B) north-central Croatia received central Euro admixture trough centuries of Hungarian and Habsburg rule
C) combination of both
I would say A is most likely because this is only region unaffected with Ottoman era which didn't have any population changes more or less.
Slavonian (east Croatia) population has very different history for example, they are all post-Ottoman settlers from Bosnia mixed with assimilated minorities.
That's why Slavonians scoring closer to Bosnians than to north Croats makes sense, unless they have recent Czech or German etc admix.
MoroLP
12-04-2020, 07:57 AM
I used these numbers for weighting:
Lika-Krbava 94663
Istria-Kvarner 263624
Gorski Kotar 76532
They are from somewhere between 1910 and 1930. Imo it makes no sense to weigh by current populations, because, for example, our genetic data for Istria-Kvarner includes only pure, rural people from there, while the current population number for Istria-Kvarner includes settlers from all over, so those 2 aren't the same variable and shouldn't be multiplied, i think we can atleast agree on that?
From where did you get these numbers? Maybe we could agree, but all these regions had substantial emigration events till 1940s and after 1940s, the oldest samples probably are from late 1930s and early 1940s, while for others from later decades already was happening intermixing between different parts of a region.
...i noticed some more samples on gedmatch which are very probably Istrian, i'll check their results and post them, maybe we can make some conclusions based on them.
Ok, now will check.
vbnetkhio
12-04-2020, 08:44 AM
From where did you get these numbers?
Gorski Kotar:
https://p-portal.net/nestajanje-srba-u-gorskom-kotaru/
Lika:
https://p-portal.net/kretanje-stanovnistva-hrvatske-po-regijama-lika/
i'm not sure for Istria-Kvarner, maybe i took it from from here, i probably did Istarska + Primirosko Goranska minus Gorski Kotar.
https://i.imgur.com/SxrfAFW.png
Maybe we could agree, but all these regions had substantial emigration events till 1940s and after 1940s, the oldest samples probably are from late 1930s and early 1940s, while for others from later decades already was happening intermixing between different parts of a region.
Ok, now will check.
Our samples are supposed to have all great-grandparents from the same region. One great-grandparent from a different region is tolerated. The great-grandparents of all our samples were very likely born before ww2.
Our samples are supposed to have all great-grandparents from the same region. One great-grandparent from a different region is tolerated. The great-grandparents of all our samples were very likely born before ww2.
Indeed.
MoroLP
12-04-2020, 09:31 AM
Gorski Kotar:
https://p-portal.net/nestajanje-srba-u-gorskom-kotaru/
i'm not sure for Istria-Kvarner, maybe i took it from from here, i probably did Istarska + Primirosko Goranska minus Gorski Kotar.
https://i.imgur.com/SxrfAFW.png
Fine, let's say you took 1910., but did you take into consideration only Croats or all population? In that census in Gk were 76,532 people, but Croats were 49,874, however:
"I used these numbers for weighting:
Lika-Krbava 94663
Istria-Kvarner 263624
Gorski Kotar 76532"
1910. year: Istarska (236,981) + Primorsko-goranska (239,354) - Gorski Kotar (76,532) = 399,803? How you 263,624?
How you got Lika-Krbava "94,663" because that number is not mentioned in the source (https://p-portal.net/kretanje-stanovnistva-hrvatske-po-regijama-lika/)? Obviously isn't general population census (188,230), but neither is of Croats (82,432) in 1910.
vbnetkhio
12-04-2020, 09:57 AM
Fine, let's say you took 1910., but did you take into consideration only Croats or all population? In that census in Gk were 76.532 people, but Croats were 49.874, however:
yes, sorry , i posted the wrong number, just the Croat number should be used.
"I used these numbers for weighting:
Lika-Krbava 94663
Istria-Kvarner 263624
Gorski Kotar 76532"
1910. year: Istarska (236,981) + Primorsko-goranska (239,354) - Gorski Kotar (76,532) = 399,803?
How you got Lika-Krbava "94,663" because that number is not mentioned in the source?[/QUOTE]
I think i also added the Senj area, because the average is called Lika-Senj.
For Istria-Kvarner i have this data saved, i can't find the source now. I think these are just ethnic Croats, without Italians etc.
Modruš-Rijeka 68168
Krk-Kastav 27340
Istria 168116
Istria-Kvarner(total) 263624
here are some more sources (wit ethnic data)
http://publikacije.stat.gov.rs/G1921/Pdf/G19214001.pdf
http://publikacije.stat.gov.rs/G1931/Pdf/G19314001.pdf
vbnetkhio
12-04-2020, 12:31 PM
these are probably Istrian. the first 3 based on incomplete family trees, the last 2 on their surname.
North_AtlanticBalticWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRed_ SeaSouth_AsianEast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceanian Northeast_AfrSub0Saharan
29.3828.8216.087.6313.581.331.541.01000.6400
29.7628.0416.116.9816.030.541.390.5800.210.3600
30.4930.8714.529.969.722.80.730000.470.420
22.228.7116.2410.5816.571.271.621.300.610.570.320
26.983017.39.511.811.442.5200.370.09000
they are all within the current Istria-Kvarner range, and Istrians still look similar to Lika and Dalmatia Croats.
these are probably Istrian. the first 3 based on incomplete family trees, the last 2 on their surname.
North_AtlanticBalticWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRed_ SeaSouth_AsianEast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceanian Northeast_AfrSub0Saharan
29.3828.8216.087.6313.581.331.541.01000.6400
29.7628.0416.116.9816.030.541.390.5800.210.3600
30.4930.8714.529.969.722.80.730000.470.420
22.228.7116.2410.5816.571.271.621.300.610.570.320
26.983017.39.511.811.442.5200.370.09000
they are all within the current Istria-Kvarner range, and Istrians still look similar to Lika and Dalmatia Croats.
But, notice north Atlantic is higher than Baltic in first two! And equal in third, also high. That seem typically west Istrian IMO.
If Moro agrees, we can add them to averages.
Insuperable
12-04-2020, 03:15 PM
Istrians are kinda southern shifted.
Istrians are kinda southern shifted.
Only western coast most likely. Moro has few samples from inland Istria which are much more northern.
Mingle
12-04-2020, 04:02 PM
What happened to all the regional averages? East is Slavonia? North is Zagorje + Međimurje? Littoral is confusing, is it well Littoral? What happened to Dalmatia then or it includes both Littoral (+Istria?) and the Dalmatian region? The northern and southern Adriatic coast shouldn't be put together. Names are a bit confusing, uncommon for Croatian regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_Croatia). What is the sample size? New averages:
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina,25.53,32.41,15.86,8.50,13.91,1.38,0.59 ,0.25,0.56,0.46,0.35,0.04,0.11
Croat_East,27.42,34.37,13.89,8.65,11.79,1.56,0.03, 0.14,1.16,0.62,0.35,0.02,0.01
Croat_Littoral,26.81,32.09,15.78,8.11,13.54,1.40,0 .33,0.24,0.56,0.49,0.39,0.13,0.11
Croat_north,31.28,33.43,14.32,7.22,9.91,1.18,0.61, 0.31,0.54,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.13
Croat,28.38,33.18,14.95,7.74,11.78,1.42,0.50,0.26, 0.56,0.53,0.45,0.10,0.13
Aren't Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia genetically the same?
Aren't Croats from Herzegovina and Dalmatia genetically the same?
Very very similar, but if we're being nitpicky Dalmatians got bit higher North Atlantic and West Med while Herzegovians got bit higher Baltic and East Med on average.
Mingle
12-05-2020, 06:30 AM
Very very similar, but if we're being nitpicky Dalmatians got bit higher North Atlantic and West Med while Herzegovians got bit higher Baltic and East Med on average.
I meant why not group them together as "Croat_South" or something?
I meant why not group them together as "Croat_South" or something?
That's the idea, to group Dalmatia, Lika and BiH as Croat_South.
MoroLP
12-07-2020, 05:41 PM
But, notice north Atlantic is higher than Baltic in first two! And equal in third, also high. That seem typically west Istrian IMO.
If Moro agrees, we can add them to averages.
All of them can be included in the "West" average. Four out of five can be included in the sub-regional Istrian average as well, the exception is third kit (NA 30.49 / Baltic 30.87) because is paternally from Istria while maternally from Kvarner / Slovenia. With the addition of these four kits, what's the current number of Istrian samples? 11?
Other shared kits seemingly or were not Croatian or were not Istrian but from Kvarner and Gk (Delnice) so these should be added to "West" as well if aren't already.
vbnetkhio
12-09-2020, 11:06 AM
Yes, I use Excel.
you should take charge of the Croatian averages. i can send you the excel database if you don't have it already.
MoroLP
12-13-2020, 04:52 PM
Old-current averages:
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina,25.53,32.41,15.86,8.50,13.91,1.38,0.59 ,0.25,0.56,0.46,0.35,0.04,0.11
Croat_East,27.42,34.37,13.89,8.65,11.79,1.56,0.03, 0.14,1.16,0.62,0.35,0.02,0.01
Croat_Littoral,26.81,32.09,15.78,8.11,13.54,1.40,0 .33,0.24,0.56,0.49,0.39,0.13,0.11
Croat_north,31.28,33.43,14.32,7.22,9.91,1.18,0.61, 0.31,0.54,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.13
Croat,28.38,33.18,14.95,7.74,11.78,1.42,0.50,0.26, 0.56,0.53,0.45,0.10,0.13
Target Distance
Celto-Germanic * Early_Slavic * Paleo-Balkan
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina 3.26957000
2.4 59.6 38.0
Croat_East 4.02479049
9.2 62.4 28.4
Croat_Littoral 3.04843174
8.8 55.6 35.6
Croat_north 2.64516202
29.6 49.6 20.8
Croat 2.91855975
15.6 55.6 28.8
Target Distance
Early_Germanic * Early_Romanian/Balkanite * Early_Slav * Turkic/Tatar/Cuman
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina 1.87855946
0.0 37.2 62.8 0.0
Croat_East 1.78925076
4.0 27.8 67.8 0.4
Croat_Littoral 1.74738445
4.0 35.4 60.6 0.0
Croat_north 1.23510997
19.0 21.0 60.0 0.0
Croat 1.39805745
8.8 28.6 62.6 0.0
Target Distance
Alan * Germanic * Slavic * Vlach
Croat_Bosnia&Herzegovina 0.94454570
0.0 0.0 63.6 36.4
Croat_East 0.96181556
0.8 6.4 62.4 30.4
Croat_Littoral 0.94099799
0.0 2.2 60.4 37.4
Croat_north 0.50504371
0.0 16.6 57.8 25.6
Croat 0.62036817
0.0 6.4 61.6 32.0
New averages:
Croat_South,26.36,31.83,15.92,8.38,13.60,1.47,0.50 ,0.28,0.56,0.47,0.37,0.12,0.11
Croat_West,28.53,31.60,15.24,7.61,13.31,1.38,0.61, 0.38,0.36,0.38,0.40,0.13,0.07
Croat_East,26.84,34.60,14.13,8.26,12.31,1.43,0.22, 0.12,1.08,0.68,0.30,0.01,0.01
Croat_North,30.06,34.35,14.42,7.05,10.10,1.33,0.54 ,0.31,0.52,0.61,0.40,0.16,0.14
Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10
Target Distance
Celto-Germanic * Early_Slavic * Paleo-Balkan
Croat_South 3.08782206
7.2 55.8 37.0
Croat_West 3.35202711
17.6 49.8 32.6
Croat_East 3.73943514
6.0 64.2 29.8
Croat_North 2.46731102
22.8 55.4 21.8
Croat 2.94054025
14.4 56.0 29.6
Target Distance
Early_Germanic * Early_Romanian/Balkanite * Early_Slav * Turkic/Tatar/Cuman
Croat_South 1.60360039
3.0 36.6 60.4 0.0
Croat_West 2.06799915
10.8 32.8 56.4 0.0
Croat_East 1.86758502
1.6 29.0 69.4 0.0
Croat_North 1.32915743
13.6 21.6 64.8 0.0
Croat 1.46059668
7.8 29.4 62.8 0.0
Target Distance
Germanic * Slavic * Vlach
Croat_South 0.74532767
1.6 60.8 37.6
Croat_West 0.97461719
7.6 54.8 37.6
Croat_East 0.89321452
3.8 65.0 31.2
Croat_North 0.48422179
10.0 63.8 26.2
Croat 0.65275339
6.0 61.4 32.6
First as far as ADMIXTURE is concerned, the first with three ancestral populations is not good enough because it has a much greater distance than the others and its "Celto-Germanic" share is unrealistically high and even too high (impossible as "North" is 23-30%, etc.), while the second with four and Stearsolina’s last with modern ancestral populations seem pretty good to use.
As can be seen, the new supraregional and national averages have identical or very similar and meaningful percentages of K13 components (eg Croatian national averages are almost identical, but the newer one is a bit more realistic; "South" and "West" have the same Baltic, but "West" has a larger NA; "South" and "East" have the same NA, but "East" has a larger Baltic; "North" is expectedly most northern-shifted), have lower distances (eg "South" agreed very well, "North" also, etc.), seem more realistic considering the shares of ancestral components (eg Croatian national average should be around 30-35% Old Balkan, but not lower than that; "North" realistically should be lower than 20% Germanic; "West" realistically second as far as NA is concerned due to Germanic and Italian influence; all around 30-35% Old Balkan except "North" which is around 21-26% but should not be lower than 20%).
Vbnetkhio, Lucas, Peterski etc. are welcome to make PCA to see how it looks like.
Fantastic work Moro!!! It was great idea to give average making to you. Thanks to Vbnethkio as well for helping you with database and old censuses. Looks neat :thumbsup:
MoroLP
12-13-2020, 07:08 PM
PCA using Vahaduo Custom PCA:
104539
MoroLP
12-14-2020, 02:13 AM
Seeing how were made the current Serbian averages (link (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310130-NEW!-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-ON-LINE&p=7012028&viewfull=1#post7012028)), and based on the regionalization reasoning used in Croatian averages, Vbnetkhio can you make another four Serbian regional averages using the weighting methods:
1) "West" - including samples from Croatia and Western Bosnia
2) "Central" - including samples from Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina and the central part of Serbia
3) "North" - including samples from Vojvodina (+Eastern Slavonia?)
4) "South" - including samples from Southeastern Serbia and Kosovo
First is representing those Serbs who migrated westward and lived in close proximity to Croats for several centuries. The second is basically the core of the medieval Serbian state. The third has a complex history, and the fourth is self-explanatory. It would be informative to compare them to current Serbian averages and others.
vbnetkhio
12-15-2020, 09:37 AM
Seeing how were made the current Serbian averages (link (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310130-NEW!-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-ON-LINE&p=7012028&viewfull=1#post7012028)), and based on the regionalization reasoning used in Croatian averages, Vbnetkhio can you make another four Serbian regional averages using the weighting methods:
1) "West" - including samples from Croatia and Western Bosnia
2) "Central" - including samples from Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina and the central part of Serbia
3) "North" - including samples from Vojvodina (+Eastern Slavonia?)
4) "South" - including samples from Southeastern Serbia and Kosovo
First is representing those Serbs who migrated westward and lived in close proximity to Croats for several centuries. The second is basically the core of the medieval Serbian state. The third has a complex history, and the fourth is self-explanatory. It would be informative to compare them to current Serbian averages and others.
You can check out the previous version of the averages:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310130-NEW!-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-ON-LINE&p=6926961&viewfull=1#post6926961
But they don't depict the genetics of these regions accurately. I made that division back when I knew less about genetics than I do now. Just take them as rough approximations.
That's why I made the new version, it's the best which can be extracted from the current data.
MoroLP
12-15-2020, 09:31 PM
...Looks neat
Looking at the database, we are lacking samples from central and eastern Istria to make a balance with the western coast; we especially lack samples from Kvarner because of which the Istria&Kvarner regional average is mostly based on (western coast) Istria which is pulling it more southern due to new western samples in comparison to older average which had a slightly higher Baltic; and samples from eastern Croatia of course. Other regions look fine for now.
Ion Basescul
12-17-2020, 02:30 PM
Is this the thread to dump results from Croatia?
From Buzet, Istarska
<tbody>
North_Atlantic
24.41 Pct
Baltic
28.37 Pct
West_Med
20.9 Pct
West_Asian
10.52 Pct
East_Med
10.83 Pct
Red_Sea
-
South_Asian
3.37 Pct
East_Asian
-
Siberian
1.09 Pct
Amerindian
0.19 Pct
Oceanian
0.32 Pct
Northeast_African
-
Sub-Saharan
-
</tbody>
Ion Basescul
12-17-2020, 02:33 PM
1/2 Buzet (relative to the one above), 1/2 Karlovac, Karlovacka
<tbody>
North_Atlantic
26.3 Pct
Baltic
32.77 Pct
West_Med
17.33 Pct
West_Asian
8.58 Pct
East_Med
9.84 Pct
Red_Sea
1.89 Pct
South_Asian
0.83 Pct
East_Asian
-
Siberian
1.07 Pct
Amerindian
0.08 Pct
Oceanian
1.31 Pct
Northeast_African
-
Sub-Saharan
-
</tbody>
Ion Basescul
12-17-2020, 02:36 PM
1/2 Zadarska, 1/2 Primorsko-Goranska
<tbody>
North_Atlantic
29.36 Pct
Baltic
25.45 Pct
West_Med
15.66 Pct
West_Asian
6.34 Pct
East_Med
20.09 Pct
Red_Sea
1.01 Pct
South_Asian
-
East_Asian
-
Siberian
1.52 Pct
Amerindian
-
Oceanian
0.58 Pct
Northeast_African
-
Sub-Saharan
-
</tbody>
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