Q among Hungarian Romani

[Kaspias]

I was looking for a match among national HG databases, and was able to found 11 in total:

4 Yugur
1 Kazakh
1 Han
1 Tibetan
1 Uyghur
3 Hungarian Romani


I wonder possible explanations.

https://i.ibb.co/2P9f9Sh/Ads-z.png

[Blondie]

So Stears was right about turano-gypsies

[Kyp]

Interesting

does this Halpo exist in India?

[Alenka]

Interesting

does this Halpo exist in India?
Maybe in the Mongoloid shifted regions of North India?

If not, they could've picked it up elsewhere when they were on the way from India to Europe. They passed through a vast area, coming into contact with a diverse variety of ethnic groups.

[Kaspias]

Interesting

does this Halpo exist in India?

This clade? No. It peaks among the Turkic people from Russia.

See: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L330/ (Those Hungarians below L332 are ethnic Hungarians, one from Jászság)

[Kyp]

This clade? No. It peaks among the Turkic people from Russia.

See: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L330/ (Those Hungarians below L332 are ethnic Hungarians, one from Jászság)

Yes but there were Steppe invasions into North India. Also Irano-Turkic influence in North India.

[Kaspias]

Yes but there were Steppe invasions into North India. Also Irano-Turkic influence in North India.

There are, and Q is present in South Asia thanks to these invasions but not that clade. L330 concentrated on former Hunnic regions and their descendants and the southernmost region are seen is Turkestan/Tibet region.

[Kyp]

There are, and Q is present in South Asia thanks to these invasions but not that clade. L330 concentrated on former Hunnic regions and their descendants and the southernmost region are seen is Turkestan/Tibet region.

Okay didn't knew that

[Kaspias]

So Stears was right about turano-gypsies

I can't remember actually, what was his theory?

[Jana]

Croatian guy from Herzegovina is also haplogroup Q, and he has atypically high south asian score.

[Kaspias]

Croatian guy from Herzegovina is also haplogroup Q, and he has atypically high south asian score.

What about the East Eurasian score? Also may I ask the clade?

[Blondie]

I can't remember actually, what was his theory?

Stears theory is hungarian turanids = gypsies.

[Kaspias]

Stears theory is hungarian turanids = gypsies.

Lol

[Jana]

What about the East Eurasian score? Also may I ask the clade?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Z5902/
Sri Lanka lol! Where is that from?

His K13:

cro_herz_11,29.87,31.69,13.83,7.41,10.3,0.89,4.17, 0.01,1.02,0.61,0.19,0.01,0

4.17% south asian, 1.02% siberian, 0.61% amerindian

[itilvolga]

South Asian Qs belong to the M120, no? L330 sounds kind of impossible for a person whose paternal lineage is Romani.
I see there are three types of Hungarian Romanis: the Karpat, the Vlach (Oláh), and the Beás. Those Oláh ones are known with their connection with Slavs during their wanderings so maybe it has something to do with Late Paleolithic Siberia. Also they came from Wallachia and the region was under the control of Bolgars, Cumans and Pechenegs in the past, can be another reason.

[tipirneni]

Maybe in the Mongoloid shifted regions of North India?

If not, they could've picked it up elsewhere when they were on the way from India to Europe. They passed through a vast area, coming into contact with a diverse variety of ethnic groups.

No not in Mongoloid shifted areas. The Q exists among very ancient migrations in India. The ancient river culture called Saraswati civilization (IVC & Before ) had people from Central Asia coming in small batches. Looks like there are some branches of Q close to India in Middle East too. There might have been an ancient cline of people with Q in India, Srilanka, Middle East who have settled along the people of H & F clades.

[tipirneni]

Yes but there were Steppe invasions into North India. Also Irano-Turkic influence in North India.

Tribals of H clades like Gonds have highest Q % share. Which indicates that Q in India might be very old from Bronze or Chalcolithic time.

[tipirneni]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Z5902/
Sri Lanka lol! Where is that from?

His K13:

cro_herz_11,29.87,31.69,13.83,7.41,10.3,0.89,4.17, 0.01,1.02,0.61,0.19,0.01,0

4.17% south asian, 1.02% siberian, 0.61% amerindian

The Indian Tribals like Gonds & Saharias & Gujars seem to carry these Q which might be from older Chalcolithic time or Bronze age time migrations. Jats and Pathans might have the recent ones.

[tipirneni]

Croatian guy from Herzegovina is also haplogroup Q, and he has atypically high south asian score.

Might be tag along with H1 Romani people. The H1 tribals in India like Gonds, Saharia etc.. have decent amount of Q (<10%) from very old migrations.

[Kaspias]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Z5902/
Sri Lanka lol! Where is that from?

His K13:

cro_herz_11,29.87,31.69,13.83,7.41,10.3,0.89,4.17, 0.01,1.02,0.61,0.19,0.01,0

4.17% south asian, 1.02% siberian, 0.61% amerindian

Well it is most likely Romani in his case, but the clade he belonged is not necessarily Indian, considering the Tajik there


South Asian Qs belong to the M120, no? L330 sounds kind of impossible for a person whose paternal lineage is Romani.
I see there are three types of Hungarian Romanis: the Karpat, the Vlach (Oláh), and the Beás. Those Oláh ones are known with their connection with Slavs during their wanderings so maybe it has something to do with Late Paleolithic Siberia. Also they came from Wallachia and the region was under the control of Bolgars, Cumans and Pechenegs in the past, can be another reason.

M120 is kinda East Asian, L712 and L275 are more common in India. These two are Middle-East clades(L712 is also Turkic) tipirneni mentioned.

L275: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L275/
L712: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L712/ -> One Hungarian kit is present there but he is ethnic Hungarian from Bukovina.

I still can't think of theory what is the role of Romani's in this story.

There may be two roots of such haplogroups, Huns and Cumans. This is how the Hungarian DNA project identified these groups:

https://i.ibb.co/hdMy1zw/Ads-z.png

My STR values: 13 24 13 10 15-17 12 12 14 13 14 29

I don't have STR of Romani's, unfortunately.

[Chris596]

Hmm this is new to me. As far as I know, haplogroup Q is also present in India, maybe some of them already carried it or I don't know. Or maybe it's due to the mixing here, this is also a possibility.

[tipirneni]

Well it is most likely Romani in his case, but the clade he belonged is not necessarily Indian, considering the Tajik there



M120 is kinda East Asian, L712 and L275 are more common in India. These two are Middle-East clades(L712 is also Turkic) tipirneni mentioned.

L275: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L275/
L712: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L712/ -> One Hungarian kit is present there but he is ethnic Hungarian from Bukovina.

I still can't think of theory what is the role of Romani's in this story.

There may be two roots of such haplogroups, Huns and Cumans. This is how the Hungarian DNA project identified these groups:

https://i.ibb.co/hdMy1zw/Ads-z.png

My STR values: 13 24 13 10 15-17 12 12 14 13 14 29

I don't have STR of Romani's, unfortunately.
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-7-232/MediaObjects/12862_2007_Article_523_Fig1_HTML.jpg?as=webp
subgroup Q4 has been identified which is defined by bi-allelic marker M346, representing HG Q (0.41%, 3/728) in Indian population
We observed 15/630 (2.38%) Y-HG Q individuals in India with an ancestral state at M120
we further observed a novel 4 bp deletion/insertion polymorphism (ss4 bp, rs41352448) at 72,314 position of human arylsulfatase D pseudogene, defining a novel sub-lineage Q5 (in 5/15 individuals, i.e., 33.3 % of the observed Y-HG Q) with distributions independent of the social, cultural, linguistic and geographical affiliations in India.
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-7-232/MediaObjects/12862_2007_Article_523_Fig2_HTML.jpg?as=webp
It was interesting to find that most of the Indian Q (Q4, Q5 and Q*) associated Y-STR haplotypes were separated from the bulk of Central Asian Q* associated haplotypes. this HG is distributed widely, ranging from Indo-European castes and tribes to their Dravidian counterparts, despite its low frequency. Interestingly, apart from assigned Y-HG Q5 (33.3%, 5/15) samples and the only one individual representing Q1 lineage, there were Y-HG Q bearing (60%, 9/15) samples, representing none of the known Q subgroups and designated as Q*


India Regions Social Category Linguistic Category No. of Samples No. of Samples in Haplogroup
North: Q (xQ5) Q5
J&K Kashmiri Pandits Caste high Indo-European 51 * 3
J&K kashmir Gujars Tribe Indo-European 61 * 1Q1
Dalits+ Caste low Indo-European 18 #
Muslim Religious group Indo-European 19 #
Rajput Caste high Indo-European 29 #
Uttar Pradesh Brahmin Caste high Indo-European 14 # 1@
Uttar Pradesh Brahmin Caste high Indo-European 31 * 1 1
Uttar Pradesh Mixed Tribe Austro-Asiatic 9 *
Punjab Brahmin Caste high Indo-European 28 *
Himachal Brahmin Caste high Indo-European 19 *
Himachal Rajputs Caste high Indo-European 35 * 1
Central:
Uttar Pradesh Kols Tribe Indo-European/Austro-Asiatic 30 *
Uttar Pradesh gonds Tribe Indo-European/Dravidian 38 *
Madhya Pradesh Brahmins Caste high Indo-European 42 * 1 1
Madhya Pradesh Gonds Tribe Dravidian 17 * 1
Madhya Pradesh Saharia Tribe Indo-European 89 * 1 2
Halba Tribe Indo-European 21 # 1@
Bihar Brahmins Caste high Indo-European 38 * 1 1
Yadhava Caste Dravidian 129 $ 3
Vellalar Caste middle Dravidian 31 # 1@


From study

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1471-2148-7-232

[Black Wolf]

I was looking for a match among national HG databases, and was able to found 11 in total:

4 Yugur
1 Kazakh
1 Han
1 Tibetan
1 Uyghur
3 Hungarian Romani


I wonder possible explanations.

https://i.ibb.co/2P9f9Sh/Ads-z.png

Which haplogroup databases were you using? This looks interesting. I would not mind trying it out myself.

[Kaspias]

Which haplogroup databases were you using? This looks interesting. I would not mind trying it out myself.

https://yhrd.org/

Minimal database

[Black Wolf]

https://yhrd.org/

Minimal database

Forgive my ignorance but how did you manage to find the ethnic groups of the haplotype matches on there and the heat map?