Freedom of speech

[Lemminkäinen]

I want your comments of the situation in your country. Finland has been years a top country re the freedom of speech, but it has always meant freedom of press, not freedom of people. This may sound weird, but the ownership of the Finnish press is very centralized and state authorities do nothing to prevent this centralization process. I really worry about it. I have no numbers about it but my guess is that over 80% of the press distribution is in one man's hands. This power monitors even single words. I have seen how the self-censorship has deepened years while the ownership moves to same hands. Today I tested it again and wrote a comment after the title "Finland reached the second place in freedom of press in the world". I sent a comment which is normally published after the news. It was "but not applies to self-censorship". It was immediately canceled by the software and a feedback was "your message breaks our rules". We don't know how many banned words we have. If you try to cheat by using euphemisms and the censorship sees your subtle but wrong opinion it is also canceled in a minute.

[Blondie]

The hungarian freedom of speech is very good, you can say absolutely what your want: you can be feminist, nationalist, self hater, europe hater, migrant supporter, homophobic, you can say "n*gger" and everything, there is one and only very popular insulting word and this is "you are commie" ,the hungarian politicians always say that because the Fidesz and the pro-EU leftists are mostly ex communist party members and every political side call each other communist every day, so the magic word is "commie" :D The newspapers are mostly Fidesz oriented, but the most online media belong to opposition parties. I've never heard that the police are taking opposition activists to jail because of their political point of view this doesn't exist in Hungary.

[Finnish Swede]

I want your comments of the situation in your country. Finland has been years a top country re the freedom of speech, but it has always meant freedom of press, not freedom of people. This may sound weird, but the ownership of the Finnish press is very centralized and state authorities do nothing to prevent this centralization process. I really worry about it. I have no numbers about it but my guess is that over 80% of the press distribution is in one man's hands. This power monitors even single words. I have seen how the self-censorship has deepened years while the ownership moves to same hands. Today I tested it again and wrote a comment after the title "Finland reached the second place in freedom of press in the world". I sent a comment which is normally published after the news. It was "but not applies to self-censorship". It was immediately canceled by the software and a feedback was "your message breaks our rules". We don't know how many banned words we have. If you try to cheat by using euphemisms and the censorship sees your subtle but wrong opinion it is also canceled in a minute.

Press? Perhaps we should talk media? Are you calculate YLE to be hands of one man now? As in any cases that is the main forum of media to most of people in Finland ... one which they trust/listen the most (others are to support/question that).

So not MTV 3, Helsingin Sanomat, Aamulehti, Iltasanomat, Iltalehti etc.

[Finnish Swede]

The hungarian freedom of speech is very good, you can say absolutely what your want: you can be feminist, nationalist, self hater, europe hater, migrant supporter, homophobic, you can say "n*gger" and everything, there is one and only very popular insulting word and this is "you are commie" ,the hungarian politicians always say that because the Fidesz and the pro-EU leftists are mostly ex communist party members and every political side call each other communist every day, so the magic word is "commie" :D The newspapers are mostly Fidesz oriented, but the most online media belong to opposition parties. I've never heard that the police are taking opposition activists to jail because of their political point of view this doesn't exist in Hungary.


And at the same time Orban ''tights the cencor'' because of corona virus ... weirdly ... not temporary.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/31/viktor-orban-hungary-coronavirus-coup/

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/20/coronavirus-hungary-minister-says-criticism-of-viktor-orban-s-new-powers-are-simply-fake

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/world/europe/victor-orban-coronavirus.html

https://balkaninsight.com/2020/03/31/hungary-no-longer-a-democracy-after-coronavirus-law/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52308002

[sean]

I don't know but freedom of the press usually goes along with free speech in every free country. Critical of the government is separated because they enforce the laws. You being critical of other people though is where the law gets blurry. This is why in Canada we treat free speech on a case by case basis, we have freedom of expression but we can't use hate speech, we don't have an equivalent to the first amendment in Canada. Each one is seen as a separate and unique circumstances based on context. The Supreme Court of Canada can legitimately take you down for hate speech even if a statement you make is entirely factual. Although I don't think this has ever actually happened in practice.


Finland has been years a top country re the freedom of speech, but it has always meant freedom of press, not freedom of people. This may sound weird, but the ownership of the Finnish press is very centralized and state authorities do nothing to prevent this centralization process. I really worry about it. I have no numbers about it but my guess is that over 80% of the press distribution is in one man's hands.

You do realise that many things said on this forum would be illegal in any Western European country, right? And many populist European parties can be officially marginalised by the official state owned media, and EU can take decisions regardless of public opinion. Something like Westboro Baptist Church would be shut down by the government in Europe.

[Lemminkäinen]

Press? Perhaps we should talk media? Are you calculate YLE to be hands of one man now? As in any cases that is the main forum of media to most of people in Finland ... one which they trust/listen the most (others are to support/question that).

So not MTV 3, Helsingin Sanomat, Aamulehti, Iltasanomat, Iltalehti etc.

I can include YLE to this class :). I am not trying to blame especially someone, just tell facts. Is the ownership centralized? Does it use software censorship to ban words that belong to civilized speech in all contexts?

[Maintenance]

I didn't know Finland had such restrictions.

[Finnish Swede]

I can include YLE to this class :). I am not trying to blame especially someone, just tell facts. Is the ownership centralized? Does it use software censorship to ban words?

Nope, you are giving international/global forum a picture that things (especially with this particular matter) ... are not WELL?! in Finland.
Next posts here shows that foreign people just can not put your comment in right light/perspective (even as I know what you meant).

You can always go and read ''your'' MV lehti. Add ''Vartiotorni'' to that...

[Lemminkäinen]

Nope, you are giving international/global forum a picture that things (especially with this particular matter) ... are not WELL?! in Finland.
Next post here shows that foreign people just can not put your comment in right light/perspective (even as I know what you meant).

You can always read ''your'' MV lehti.

You became aggressive without reason, I only told facts. I don't read any far-right and far-left media. I read BBC,NYC and Finnish Iltalehti in daily basis, also The Independent. One day Iltalehti will be lost too.

[Finnish Swede]

You became aggressive without reason, I only told facts. I don't read any far-right and far-left media. I read BBC,NYC and Finnish Iltalehti in daily basis, also The Independent. One day Iltalehti will be lost too.

I thought those are exactly what ''persut'' reads in Finland (and not opposite others) ...

*******

Just because foreigners will not understand/read your ''facts'' correctly.

[Lemminkäinen]

Just because foreigners will not understand/read your ''facts'' correctly.

Why should I care if they have somehow twisted opinions? Should I react every time the foreigners say something inappropriate about Finland or bully them. It is not my business :) Here is enough shit anyway.

[Lemminkäinen]

I didn't know Finland had such restrictions.

What do you know about Finland?

[Blondie]

And at the same time Orban ''tights the cencor'' because of corona virus ... weirdly ... not temporary.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/31/viktor-orban-hungary-coronavirus-coup/

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/20/coronavirus-hungary-minister-says-criticism-of-viktor-orban-s-new-powers-are-simply-fake

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/world/europe/victor-orban-coronavirus.html

https://balkaninsight.com/2020/03/31/hungary-no-longer-a-democracy-after-coronavirus-law/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52308002

"euronews" "bbc" :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Someone is really still reading these fake news sites? :D

[Benyzero]

And at the same time Orban ''tights the cencor'' because of corona virus ... weirdly ... not temporary.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/31/viktor-orban-hungary-coronavirus-coup/

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/20/coronavirus-hungary-minister-says-criticism-of-viktor-orban-s-new-powers-are-simply-fake

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/world/europe/victor-orban-coronavirus.html

https://balkaninsight.com/2020/03/31/hungary-no-longer-a-democracy-after-coronavirus-law/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52308002

I don't understand the context!?

[Finnish Swede]

Why should I care if they have somehow twisted opinions? Should I react every time the foreigners say something inappropriate about Finland or bully them.


Yes ... ''Tulta Munille'' ... or what the real Finn men used to say.

[Finnish Swede]

I don't understand the context!?

I can not help on that...

[Finnish Swede]

"euronews" "bbc" :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Someone is really still reading these fake news sites? :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kkUzU9OiDI&t=56s

... or maybe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ_l0z2LMws

[Benyzero]

I can not help on that...

Are you saying that he is manipulating news about the coronavirus? Or using the virus to practice his power? It is unnecessary demonitizing again lol

[Lemminkäinen]

I thought those are exactly what ''persut'' reads in Finland (and not opposite others) ...

*******

Just because foreigners will not understand/read your ''facts'' correctly.

All right BBC and NYC are related to True Finns. I have read Suomen Uutiset to see what they have to say. It is too much focused on blaming the government, they have no news. It is not an ideological media either.

[Kamal900]

Not much freedom of speech here. Not that I care so much really.

[Finnish Swede]

It is not an ideological media either.

For me no media should be ideological.

Ideological medias should be burn on the bon fires. Just because they are not...

* neutral
* objective
* honest
* fair
* critical (correct ways)
etc.

And no media which is not FULLY FREE (every possible ways ... contacts, supports, needs) ... economically & politically ... from country's polical system/leaders, militaries (if needed) ... can never be neutral.

You know this as well as I do.

[Finnish Swede]

And if I add one ''fact'' Lemminkäinen ... Finland's media is much better today than it never was at Cold War time (for example). No matter of numbers of the owners (media). You know what I'm talking about; don't you?

[Desperado]

we have so much of it, people talk about reality as if it were a movie and about movies as if they were reality

[Lemminkäinen]

And if I add one ''fact'' Lemminkäinen ... Finland's media is much better today than it never was at Cold War time (for example). No matter of numbers of the owners (media). You know what I'm talking about; don't you?
Yeah, it tells now everything about Russia, but it still has its nature.

[Finnish Swede]

Yeah, it tells now everything about Russia, but it still has its nature.


Many other countries have also their ''stronger own internal natures'' vs Finland's ''nature''. Or basically all of them.

That was my point in the beginning!

[Blondie]

... or maybe

We have talked about freedom of speech and this is good in Hungary, the corruption, autocracy are other things. You must understand something, there was never real democracy in Hungary, never in the history, the actual government was always authoritarian. These leftist politicians did same things what Orbán doing now, the ex socialist prime minister Gyula Horn was member of commie terror police and killed some people in 56', the other socialist ex prime minister Ferenc Gyurcsány and his police had right wing politicians beat up just because they were protest against him and now they are larping "democratic"... :D Interesting the BBC had no problem with that. This is what i'm talking about these opposition parties are such authoritarian than Orbán. The hungarian society don't want such liberalism like in West, if you want to win an election in Hungary you need only 3 thing:
1. Horthy nostalgia, so strong nationalism
2. Kádár nostalgia = gulyás communism, the communism was not such totalitarian and bad in Hungary like in other countries and many hungarian have positive feelings about the communist Kádár government (1957-1989) the point is if you give enough food, pálinka, and basic things like car, own house and vacation on lake Balaton/year for peoples then they will be happy, the peoples don't even care democracy only these things
3. the feedom tradition so leave peoples alone with limited freedom of speech, what you can do and what you can't, so when the actual government want to say how an average people should live, hungarians hate it, so let the peoples to do their own business, that's all

That's why Fidesz is very popular in Hungary because Orbán do these 3 thing what i wrote and this is what an average hungarian needs. So our freedom is very good i think we have more freedom than western europeans even though this is an autoriter system.

[Finnish Swede]

Blondie: Are you saying that your country's political-cultural history sucks (and you pay for that today)? If so; and you can not get that changed (no matter who are leading the country) ... whom to blame for that?

[Benyzero]

Blondie: Are you saying that your country's political-cultural history sucks (and you pay for that today)? If so; and you can not get that changed (no matter who are leading the country) ... whom to blame for that?

It goes back to the feudal times, long story and some would explain it more correctly than me, but the thing is the hungarians are used to this kind of leadership and system, and while there is really freedom of speech here, there is also corruption problems, and it is pretty obvious, but the people will not rise against it, since it was always like that.

[Blondie]

Blondie: Are you saying that your country's political-cultural history sucks (and you pay for that today)? If so; and you can not get that changed (no matter who are leading the country) ... whom to blame for that?

I'm saying the hungarian society is very special, the loving of freedom has deep tradition here because in the last 500 years hungarians were opressed by foreigners: austrians, ottomans, russians. The real totalitarian systems have always failed in Hungary for example the habsburg absolutism, nazism, stalinism, but at same time the peoples need a strong government and a "leader" until he let the simple peoples alone to make their own business, and its called special hungarian autocracy, and this system was before Orbán. I don't see alternative because first of all you must change the hungarian national soul by force which is impossible because hungarians will rise against you, just like they did it against Habsurgs many times, in 56' etc.

[Marmara]

I want your comments of the situation in your country. Finland has been years a top country re the freedom of speech, but it has always meant freedom of press, not freedom of people.

Whoever decides which country has more freedom of speech/press is talking about the freedom of left wing media. They really don't care what happens to journalists which don't have the same ideology/opinion as them, and these leftist journalists of Europe are circlejerking each other, giving each other press awards. Hypocrites, European media disgusts me. Our media is also shit, but they are amateurs, they couldn't convince anyone that they stand for Freedom.

[Lemminkäinen]

The problem in Finland is that we have a diy intelligentsia, created by media. I don't say that it is not the situation in other countries too. However, old liberals, those who created the western liberalism would be shocked, even though it was somewhat aristocratic.

[Blondie]

It goes back to the feudal times, long story and some would explain it more correctly than me, but the thing is the hungarians are used to this kind of leadership and system, and while there is really freedom of speech here, there is also corruption problems, and it is pretty obvious, but the people will not rise against it, since it was always like that.

The society is also corrupt not only the politicians. For example everyone knows that Orbán and his gang are stealing the EU (or other) money but the peoples don't care because Orbán partly give it to the peoples when you are getting an envelope with money or free firewood or free food (potato) before the elections and of course the peoples will be gateful and they will vote for Orbán. The government is always mirrior of the society and the simple peoples are also accomplices of this mafia state, and everyone knows it.

[Benyzero]

The society is also corrupt not only the politicians. For example everyone knows that Orbán and his gang are stealing the EU (or other) money but the peoples don't care because Orbán partly give it to the peoples when you are getting an envelope with money or free firewood or free food (potato) before the elections and of course the peoples will be gateful and they will vote for Orbán. The government is always mirrior of the society and the simple peoples are also accomplices of this mafia state, and everyone knows it.

It is never only one sided, ofcourse if they would not support him they cant be doing this. But a lot of people support him because they used to this. It is always easyer to follow the usual path, if its the somewhat bad/somewhat good, than start to accomodate to a completely new, its isnt work like that.

[Marmara]

The society is also corrupt not only the politicians. For example everyone knows that Orbán and his gang are stealing the EU (or other) money but the peoples don't care because Orbán partly give it to the peoples when you are getting an envelope with money or free firewood or free food (potato) before the elections and of course the peoples will be gateful and they will vote for Orbán. The government is always mirrior of the society and the simple peoples are also accomplices of this mafia state, and everyone knows it.

This is so Erdoğan.

[Finnish Swede]

It goes back to the feudal times, long story and some would explain it more correctly than me, but the thing is the hungarians are used to this kind of leadership and system, and while there is really freedom of speech here, there is also corruption problems, and it is pretty obvious, but the people will not rise against it, since it was always like that.


I'm saying the hungarian society is very special, the loving of freedom has deep tradition here because in the last 500 years hungarians were opressed by foreigners: austrians, ottomans, russians. The real totalitarian systems have always failed in Hungary for example the habsburg absolutism, nazism, stalinism, but at same time the peoples need a strong government and a "leader" until he let the simple peoples alone to make their own business, and its called special hungarian autocracy, and this system was before Orbán. I don't see alternative because first of all you must change the hungarian national soul by force which is impossible because hungarians will rise against you, just like they did it against Habsurgs many times, in 56' etc.

Maybe we should focus bit more about ethnics ''national souls'' and bit less their eye colors, hair colors, skin colors, (phenotypes) or genetics.

I wonder what kind of map of Europe or borders/areas we could get in Europe.

[Finnish Swede]

This is so Erdoğan.


LOL ... it was not me who said that.

https://media.giphy.com/media/NRBPUd183O968/giphy.gif

[Marmara]

LOL ... it was not me who said that.

https://media.giphy.com/media/NRBPUd183O968/giphy.gif

But at least Orban is anti-immigration, while Erdoğan introduced atleast 8 million 3rd worlders to Turkey. I would prefer someone like Orban over Erdoğan anytime.

[Finnish Swede]

But at least Orban is anti-immigration, while Erdoğan introduced atleast 8 million 3rd worlders to Turkey. I would prefer someone like Orban over Erdoğan anytime.

Ok, vote so next time.

[Maintenance]

What do you know about Finland?

A bit more than the average scandinavian