Classify some Afghan Portraits

[Avicenna]

https://i.imgur.com/LGsqVR1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/E2WCz6L.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XrYo2cL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4FoeCvN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wBuU9G1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BSE6iqG.jpg

[Kamal900]

Most of them are Irano-Afghans.

[Kyp]

Irano-Afghans, Indo-Iranids, Irano-Nordoid, Iranids

[Avicenna]

Irano-Afghans, Indo-Iranids, Irano-Nordoid, Iranids

What's the difference between iranid and irano afghan?

[Kyp]

What's the difference between iranid and irano afghan?

idk there might be none you are right

[tipirneni]

Iranians and Tajiks

[Avicenna]

Iranians and Tajiks

Judging by the posts , they are from pashtun dominated regions , jalalabad ( nangarhar) and kunar . So I don't think they are tajiks.

[Avicenna]

Iranians and Tajiks

Judging by the posts , they are from pashtun dominated regions , jalalabad ( nangarhar) and kunar . So I don't think they are tajiks.

[Kyp]

Judging by the posts , they are from pashtun dominated regions , jalalabad ( nangarhar) and kunar . So I don't think they are tajiks.

Yes they look Pasthun imo

[Damião de Góis]

Number 5 looks american.

[Dr_Maul]

Bactrians and Sogdians :D

[tipirneni]

Judging by the posts , they are from pashtun dominated regions , jalalabad ( nangarhar) and kunar . So I don't think they are tajiks.

Wow that looks real Central Asian. Many Pashtun look to have this kind of mix with some % South Indian which usually shows them apart from Tajiks

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/X9AAJ9/pashtun-man-in-jalalabad-nangarhar-province-afghanistan-X9AAJ9.jpg

[Mejgusu]

https://i.imgur.com/LGsqVR1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/E2WCz6L.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XrYo2cL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4FoeCvN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wBuU9G1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BSE6iqG.jpg

Second one looks like conservative Turk;)

[Avicenna]

Wow that looks real Central Asian. Many Pashtun look to have this kind of mix with some % South Indian which usually shows them apart from Tajiks

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/X9AAJ9/pashtun-man-in-jalalabad-nangarhar-province-afghanistan-X9AAJ9.jpg

Not really at all. Southern pashtuns have the least "ASI" and yet they are in average darker than blonde blue eyed nuristanis /north east pashtun /tajiks who get higher "ASI". Man you posted looks no different than portraits in OP tbh .

[Avicenna]

Second one looks like conservative Turk;)

Passes better as Turkish or kurdish?

[Avicenna]

Number 5 looks american.

Not really, looks more balkanic

[Mejgusu]

Passes better as Turkish or kurdish?

Both. The third men looks like some of the relatives of my mother.

[Mejgusu]

Passes better as Turkish or kurdish?

Both. The third men looks like some of the relatives of my mother.

[Avicenna]

Both. The third men looks like some of the relatives of my mother.

Who looks the most familiar to you ?

[Kivan]

Passes better as Turkish or kurdish?

None of that people look Turkish at slightest.

[Mejgusu]

Who looks the most familiar to you ?

If the first men would have flat noise, he could be my paternal uncle, the siblings of my father(also he) have deep blue eyes. But only the third men could be my relative, my maternal great grandfather looked a little bit like him, but had double eyelids. He was called "gökgözlü", what means blueeyed guy. I would also look like a afghan, but i dont resemble like these men.

[Mejgusu]

None of that people look Turkish at slightest.

The second one does.

[Avicenna]

If the first men would have flat noise, he could be my paternal uncle, the siblings of my father(also he) have deep blue eyes. But only the third men could be my relative, my maternal great grandfather looked a little bit like him, but had double eyelids. He was called "gökgözlü", what means blueeyed guy. I would also look like a afghan, but i dont resemble like these men.

Off topic but have you seen miracle in cell no7 ? Turkish film? Amazing acting lol.

[Mejgusu]

Off topic but have you seen miracle in cell no7 ? Turkish film? Amazing acting lol.

haha no sorry. i dont watch turkish movies, just some series but that because i sometimes chill with my parents.

[Benim]

Number 5 looks american.

He does look the most european out of them, he's probably some steppe nordid type leftover(scyth/sarmat). I don't see him as balkan-looking, but he'd be obviously considered white in america with no doubt.

[yamagi]

Weird how in the further Eastern regions of Western Asia you can find more European looking people than in East-Central Anatolia.

[Mejgusu]

Weird how in the further Eastern regions of Western Asia you can find more European looking people than in East-Central Anatolia.

I have lot of relatives who have blond hairs and deep blue eyes, my eyes are a mixture of my fathers(deep blue) and my mother(deep green). But why its weird that central anatolia hasnt many blonds?

[Avicenna]

Weird how in the further Eastern regions of Western Asia you can find more European looking people than in East-Central Anatolia.

Not weird at all in the sense if you have some ideas about migration patterns in those regions , as well climate , environment etc .

[Mejgusu]

Not weird at all in the sense if you have some ideas about migration patterns in those regions , as well climate , environment etc .

Its not weird because eastiranics show visible Protoiranian influence in their genes and appearence. They i think between 30-50% of that.

[templumForasticus]

https://i.imgur.com/BSE6iqG.jpg


The Panshir's Lion

[Avicenna]

Its not weird because eastiranics show visible Protoiranian influence in their genes and appearence. They i think between 30-50% of that.

More than 50% of groups in that region ( south central Asia ) have paternal R1a haplogroup which is essentially the Steppe people who came from the Pontic steppes .

[Mejgusu]

More than 50% of groups in that region ( south central Asia ) have paternal R1a haplogroup which is essentially the Steppe people who came from the Pontic steppes .

I meant autosomally, but yes they score high R1a. An indicator for steppe origin.

[Avicenna]

The Panshir's Lion
More like the lion of nangarhar ( doesn't sound as badass though ) lol

[Babak]

Judging by the posts , they are from pashtun dominated regions , jalalabad ( nangarhar) and kunar . So I don't think they are tajiks.

Btw is there any significant difference between pashtuns and tajiks? I personally know many Tajiks who refer to themselves as Persians/Tajiks but they wear traditional Pashtun clothes.

[Avicenna]

Btw is there any significant difference between pashtuns and tajiks? I personally know many Tajiks who refer to themselves as Persians/Tajiks but they wear traditional Pashtun clothes.

In all honesty ? Not really at all. This ethnic divide is more of a recent thing especially among pashtuns and tajiks with the tensions of the northern alliance and co. Most Caucasian afghans are intermixed with farsiwans and pashtuns . I guess that usually applies to diaspora afghans more than rural afghans from afg though Hazaras keep to themselves even among diaspora .

Regards to clothing , afghans from all over the country wear traditional "afghan " clothing , each region has its own style of clothing but the default version is commonly worn by pashtuns . Kuchi nomad clothes are very popular nowadays among diaspora afghans .

[Zroota]

Iranid, Cap Med, Irano-Nordoid with hints of Anatolid, Armenoid and Med.

Second one easily passes as an Assyrian. Looks Armenoid and slightly Med-ish.

[Zoro]

Btw is there any significant difference between pashtuns and tajiks? I personally know many Tajiks who refer to themselves as Persians/Tajiks but they wear traditional Pashtun clothes.

On average Pashtuns are more conservative and tribal (like kurds) than Tajiks. For example girls and women rights are more restricted in pashtun society. Also in pashtun majority areas such as kandahar and quetta you don’t see as many women roaming the streets as tajik majority areas. Then there’s the concept of Pashtunwali (code of living) but not as strong with the new generation

As far as phenotype there’s quite an overlap although most of the time you can distinguish pakistani pashtuns from afghan tajiks.

On a different note does anyone know why there’s a kurdish tribe named Afghani near the Iran Iraq border?

[Babak]

In all honesty ? Not really at all. This ethnic divide is more of a recent thing especially among pashtuns and tajiks with the tensions of the northern alliance and co. Most Caucasian afghans are intermixed with farsiwans and pashtuns . I guess that usually applies to diaspora afghans more than rural afghans from afg though Hazaras keep to themselves even among diaspora .

Regards to clothing , afghans from all over the country wear traditional "afghan " clothing , each region has its own style of clothing but the default version is commonly worn by pashtuns . Kuchi nomad clothes are very popular nowadays among diaspora afghans .

Oh, i gotcha

[Babak]

On average Pashtuns are more conservative and tribal (like kurds) than Tajiks. For example girls and women rights are more restricted in pashtun society. Also in pashtun majority areas such as kandahar and quetta you don’t see as many women roaming the streets as tajik majority areas. Then there’s the concept of Pashtunwali (code of living) but not as strong with the new generation

As far as phenotype there’s quite an overlap although most of the time you can distinguish pakistani pashtuns from afghan tajiks.

On a different note does anyone know why there’s a kurdish tribe named Afghani near the Iran Iraq border?

Aah i see.

Im not sure tbh. First time hearing about it

[Zoro]

Aah i see.

Im not sure tbh. First time hearing about it

The Kurdish tribe highlighted below

https://i.imgur.com/uOWGYkY.jpg

[Babak]

The Kurdish tribe highlighted below

https://i.imgur.com/uOWGYkY.jpg

Nope. No idea lol

[Kyp]

The Kurdish tribe highlighted below

https://i.imgur.com/uOWGYkY.jpg

This map is highly inaccurate wtf

[Mejgusu]

This map is highly inaccurate wtf

This map isn’t inaccurate, it’s ridiculous sorry. Only kurdish majority in central anatolia are some areas between ankara and konya and, mostly northern konya. And even those pkaces are very mixed. Btw Badeli tribe isnt kurdish, if they speak kurdish then they are just kurdified. Sorry its like i share a map which show that northern syria and iraq is belonging to turkey, just ridiculous dispute formenting stuff...

[Kyp]

This map isn’t inaccurate, it’s ridiculous sorry. Only kurdish majority in central anatolia are some areas between ankara and konya and, mostly northern konya. And even those pkaces are very mixed. Btw Badeli tribe isnt kurdish, if they speak kurdish then they are just kurdified. Sorry its like i share a map which show that northern syria and iraq is belonging to turkey, just ridiculous dispute formenting stuff...

In Iran there are a lot of tribes on the map who aren't Kurdish too. (Shamlu, Ustajlu, Osanlu, Javanshir etc..) Cringe map.

[Mejgusu]

In Iran there are a lot of tribes on the map who aren't Kurdish too. (Shamlu, Ustajlu etc..) Cringe map.

Or there are other important kurdish tribes which not even mentioned on this map.

[Zoro]

In Iran there are a lot of tribes on the map who aren't Kurdish too. (Shamlu, Ustajlu, Osanlu, Javanshir etc..) Cringe map.

WTF stop being ridiculous. Mehrdad Izady has a long long list of accomplishments, a million miles longer than you and Gecko combined. This is his Wikipaedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrdad_Izady.



Michael Mehrdad R.S.C. Izady or Michael Izady (born 1963), is a contemporary writer on ethnic and cultural topics, particularly the Greater Middle East, and Kurds.

Izady was born to a Kurdish father and a Belgian mother, and spent much of his youth in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Korea, as his diplomat parents moved from one assignment to another. He received his BA degree in history, political science and geography from the University of Kansas, and then attended Syracuse University, where he received two master's degrees in remote sensing-cartography and in international relations. He received his PhD at the department of Middle Eastern Languages and Civilizations of Columbia University in 1992.


Izady taught for six years in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University and in the Department of Middle Eastern Studies and History at the Joint Special Operations University in Florida. He has testified before two US Congressional Committees and has authored many books and articles on Middle East and Southeast European subjects.[1] He has been a part-time faculty at the Department of History at Fordham University, New York Institute of Technology [2] and Pace University since 2001. He also continues his educational services to the US military, diplomatic corps and the NATO. Since 1997, he has also been a Master Adjunct professor at the Joint Special Operations University, Florida.

Izady is also an ethnographer who has produced work on ethno-cultural topics of the Old World. His annotated cartographic works have been used by the atlases, authors, the international media—to include the National Geographic, The Economist as well as the US military, the UN and various other entities.[citation needed] Some of his work included in the Atlas of the Islamic World and Vicinity can be found at Columbia University School of International and Public Affairs, Gulf 2000 Project web site.[3]


The man probably spent a ton of time making those maps and I haven't seen anywhere maps as detailed when it comes to listing all the Kurdish tribes. Out of respect give the man some credit instead of shiting on all the time he spent making the maps and writing the books because you guys don't agree with a couple of tribes.. Why don't you write better books and make better maps if you have a problem.

BTW the Kurdish tribes in my area of Iraq are 100% accurate as far as names and locations. For example: Doski, Sindi, Zebari, Shabak, etc.

Sorry but an opinion of a guy that grew up in Germany means nothing to me.

https://i.imgur.com/hJjVV23.jpg

[Mejgusu]

I was nearly in every city in central anotolia, we travelled into villages and cities. I know many people from yozgat, sivas, kirikkale, nevsehir, aksaray, kayseri and corum. And we know the ethnic backgrounds of all villages in central anatolia. So if this men did not even mention important central anatolian tribes then he didnt make a good job. And i dont care about soneone who claims shamLU(turkic suffix, shamlu( turkish şamlı) which means those one who came from damscus) is kurdish. Its just ridiculous how you try to prove with pseudoscience that nonsense.

[Zoro]

The guy is done a ton of work. Check out all these detailed maps he produced. Have you ever seen anyone produce so many detailed maps of various parts of the world. He definitely has my respect.

https://gulf2000.columbia.edu/maps.shtml

[Kyp]

WTF stop being ridiculous. Mehrdad Izady has a long long list of accomplishments, a million miles longer than you and Gecko combined. This is his Wikipaedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrdad_Izady.







The man probably spent a ton of time making those maps and I haven't seen anywhere maps as detailed when it comes to listing all the Kurdish tribes. Out of respect give the man some credit instead of shiting on all the time he spent making the maps and writing the books because you guys don't agree with a couple of tribes.. Why don't you write better books and make better maps if you have a problem.

BTW the Kurdish tribes in my area of Iraq are 100% accurate as far as names and locations. For example: Doski, Sindi, Zebari, Shabak, etc.

Sorry but an opinion of a guy that grew up in Germany means nothing to me.

https://i.imgur.com/hJjVV23.jpg

Ah Qajars are Kurds too now

[Zoro]

I was nearly in every city in central anotolia, we travelled into villages and cities. I know many people from yozgat, sivas, kirikkale, nevsehir, aksaray, kayseri and corum. And we know the ethnic backgrounds of all villages in central anatolia. So if this men did not even mention important central anatolian tribes then he didnt make a good job. And i dont care about soneone who claims shamLU(turkic suffix, shamlu( turkish şamlı) which means those one who came from damscus) is kurdish. Its just ridiculous how you try to prove with pseudoscience that nonsense.

Maybe you should write to him and ask him why he missed those

[Mejgusu]

Sorry, but i dont care about his other works. Shamlu arent kurdish. Like others, on the other hand important kurdish tribes arent mentioned.

[Mejgusu]

Maybe you should write to him and ask him why he missed those

I should write to many others who share maps like it. But i am habituated of nonsense. That kind and unfortunately as well turkish nonsense too.

[Dr_Maul]

This map is highly inaccurate wtf

I don't think its really inaccurate but the issue is that they highlighted everywhere that there is a tribe present instead of where there is a majority. For example on the northern tip of the West Azerbaijan province which is majority Azeri they shaded it Kurdish because there are some tribes there. Same with with Khorramabad under Hamadan it is primarily Lur but I guess since there are some Kurds living there it is shaded. I don't think its incorrect but it is certainly misleading

[Mejgusu]

I don't think its really inaccurate but the issue is that they highlighted everywhere that there is a tribe present instead of where there is a majority. For example on the northern tip of the West Azerbaijan province which is majority Azeri they shaded it Kurdish because there are some tribes there. Same with with Khorramabad under Hamadan it is primarily Lur but I guess since there are some Kurds living there it is shaded. I don't think its incorrect but it is certainly misleading


I donty deny the presence of many kurdish tribes or the existence of them on this map, just this work isnt well prepared and show lot of mistakes.

[Zoro]

I don't think its really inaccurate but the issue is that they highlighted everywhere that there is a tribe present instead of where there is a majority. For example on the northern tip of the West Azerbaijan province which is majority Azeri they shaded it Kurdish because there are some tribes there. Same with with Khorramabad under Hamadan it is primarily Lur but I guess since there are some Kurds living there it is shaded. I don't think its incorrect but it is certainly misleading

I don’t think anyone can produce a map thats 100% accurate for ALL the kurdish regions. It’s just too many details and things do change slightly with time. Interesting you mention Lurs. Why do some Lurs identify as kurds and some don’t. But even the ones that don’t they’re genetically indistinguishable from the neighborhood kurds

[Kyp]

I don't think its really inaccurate but the issue is that they highlighted everywhere that there is a tribe present instead of where there is a majority. For example on the northern tip of the West Azerbaijan province which is majority Azeri they shaded it Kurdish because there are some tribes there. Same with with Khorramabad under Hamadan it is primarily Lur but I guess since there are some Kurds living there it is shaded. I don't think its incorrect but it is certainly misleading

It is inaccurate sorry.

[Dr_Maul]

I don’t think anyone can produce a map thats 100% accurate for ALL the kurdish regions. It’s just too many details and things do change slightly with time. Interesting you mention Lurs. Why do some Lurs identify as kurds and some don’t. But even the ones that don’t they’re genetically indistinguishable from the neighborhood kurds

I think some or most Lurs are just persianized Kurds, Lur-e-bozorg/Baktiari is almost completely intelligible to me, however like you said they are very similar to Kurds genetically. Maybe some Lurs identify as Kurds because they know that they are form a common ancestor or something like that. I think Lurs are more related to people like Elamites compared to Kurds however.

[Oghuz]

Ah Qajars are Kurds too now

No we are not !

Have you lost your mind ?

[Kyp]

No we are not !

Have you lost your mind ?

The source lists Ghovanlu as Kurdish

We both have found out today that we are Kurdish bro

[Oghuz]

I don't think its really inaccurate but the issue is that they highlighted everywhere that there is a tribe present instead of where there is a majority. For example on the northern tip of the West Azerbaijan province which is majority Azeri they shaded it Kurdish because there are some tribes there. Same with with Khorramabad under Hamadan it is primarily Lur but I guess since there are some Kurds living there it is shaded. I don't think its incorrect but it is certainly misleading

Kurdish presence in Khorramabad is minimal. Its like some urban families are here and there. There is no tribal kurdish presence there. Its just Lur.

This map, though it seems to be made by nationalist Kurdish elements, is showing Kurdish presence only not the whole tribe. Like if there is some Kurdish family or clan is living in a town, the map maker just marked it Kurdish. This map should be labeled as Kurdish presence map instead of Kurdish tribal majority map.


I don’t think anyone can produce a map thats 100% accurate for ALL the kurdish regions. It’s just too many details and things do change slightly with time. Interesting you mention Lurs. Why do some Lurs identify as kurds and some don’t. But even the ones that don’t they’re genetically indistinguishable from the neighborhood kurds

Urbanized Lurs like to identify as Persians as per my experience. Non urbanised ones just call themselves Lurs and nothing else.

[Oghuz]

The source lists Ghovanlu as Kurdish

We both have found out today that we are Kurdish bro

I thought you were saying that Qajars are Kurds.

Yes that source is not correct. Not only the author is calling Turks = Kurdish. He is also calling some gathered up confederations as tribes which are two different things e.g. Shamlu.

[Kyp]

I thought you were saying that Qajars are Kurds.

Yes that source is not correct. Not only the author is calling Turks = Kurdish. He is also calling some gathered up confederations as tribes which are two different things e.g. Shamlu.

The map also has some Afshar tribes listed as Kurdish I followed the sources and it states they (my tribe) speak Laki. (???) Source year: 1992


You never learn out

[Mejgusu]

According the map some of my tribe are also kurdish. Instead if Begdili Badeli. I beat someone will come and say its a different tribe or they are originally kurdish. XD

[Nurzat]

good looking manly men. there's something noble about their looks

[Oghuz]

The map also has some Afshar tribes listed as Kurdish I followed the sources and it states they (my tribe) speak Laki. (???)

Everyone has their own versions of history.

......

btw Qereqlu Afshars had massive Luri Laki allies. Bakhtiaris and Zands took heavy part in Hotak Afghan Massacre under Nader Shah himself. They intermarried as well.

[Babak]

WTF stop being ridiculous. Mehrdad Izady has a long long list of accomplishments, a million miles longer than you and Gecko combined. This is his Wikipaedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrdad_Izady.







The man probably spent a ton of time making those maps and I haven't seen anywhere maps as detailed when it comes to listing all the Kurdish tribes. Out of respect give the man some credit instead of shiting on all the time he spent making the maps and writing the books because you guys don't agree with a couple of tribes.. Why don't you write better books and make better maps if you have a problem.

BTW the Kurdish tribes in my area of Iraq are 100% accurate as far as names and locations. For example: Doski, Sindi, Zebari, Shabak, etc.

Sorry but an opinion of a guy that grew up in Germany means nothing to me.

https://i.imgur.com/hJjVV23.jpg

Wait but...Im pretty sure Shamulus and Qavanlus were Turks though.

[Zoro]

Wait but...Im pretty sure Shamulus and Qavanlus were Turks though.

I honestly don't care if they're Turks or Kurds. My problem is that these guys don't appreciate all the work that goes into making all these types of maps. Do I expect that the detail in all maps is 100% accurate no who the publisher is? of course not. But don't shit on someone either because some detail is missing or a little off. At the end of the day I would much rather have his maps (I haven't even seen anything nearly as detailed out there like the dozens of maps he has) than have nothing.

If those guys think they can do better I would like to see them make maps just as detailed but with higher accuracy

[Dr_Maul]

I donty deny the presence of many kurdish tribes or the existence of them on this map, just this work isnt well prepared and show lot of mistakes.

Agreed

[Kyp]

I honestly don't care if they're Turks or Kurds. My problem is that these guys don't appreciate all the work that goes into making all these types of maps. Do I expect that the detail in all maps is 100% accurate no who the publisher is? of course not. But don't shit on someone either because some detail is missing or a little off. At the end of the day I would much rather have his maps (I haven't even seen anything nearly as detailed out there like the dozens of maps he has) than have nothing.

If those guys think they can do better I would like to see them make maps just as detailed but with higher accuracy

I make a map and call you a Saudi who speaks Amazigh without evidence. How would you feel?

[Zoro]

I make a map and call you a Saudi who speaks Amazigh without evidence. How would you feel?

Stop exaggerating. With some of these tribes in Kurdish/Azeri/Turkish areas it's not that black and white. Many times some of these tribes are mixed

[Halgurd]

I thought you were saying that Qajars are Kurds.

Yes that source is not correct. Not only the author is calling Turks = Kurdish. He is also calling some gathered up confederations as tribes which are two different things e.g. Shamlu.

I don’t know if you guys are talking about the same tribes though. Many clans have similar names, and Mehrdad must have just assumed that the Shamlu Qizilbas were Kurds as well (I’m guessing). I know of 2/3 different tribes with same tribe names as mine for example, but we are very different.

The Shamlu he talks about lives in Khorasan and is a clan inhabiting a few villages

16- Bicharanlu (Bakran / Shamali / shamlu); a clan from Kikanlu tribe who lives in rural district of jiristan in countryside of Shirvan, villages such as; Honameh, Ghale-hasan, Gadogan, Gholanlu, Ghale-naqdo, Ghale-dolu, Kalateh-bali.

[Halgurd]

Wait but...Im pretty sure Shamulus and Qavanlus were Turks though.

84- Kavanlu (Keyvanlu / Kawanlu / Kowanlu / Kawi); a major tribe from za’afaranlu greater tribe / Za’afaranlu tribal aristocratic confederacy (traced from south and eastern part of former Chamishgazak principality, Turkey), who lives in the cities of Radkan, Chenaran, Quchan, Shirvan, Daregaz and Kalat and La’in, and their villages for instance; Shamsi-khan, Zinglanlu, Chavoshlu, Mohamad-abad (suburbs of Daregaz), Spiyan, Kahu, and Takab (Tako). Some of them still travel between summer camps (Hezarmasjed, Esfejir camp) and winter camps (Heji, Maraveh-tapeh and Dashte-taqar). Subdivision of this tribe is; Torsanlu, Govareshkanlu, Khalikanlu, Buzanlu, Pazuki, Miyanlu, Khalanlu. Their last leaders were Misir-Xan Shekofteh and Haji Karam Molawi.

He seems to have studied them extensively.

[Babak]

84- Kavanlu (Keyvanlu / Kawanlu / Kowanlu / Kawi); a major tribe from za’afaranlu greater tribe / Za’afaranlu tribal aristocratic confederacy (traced from south and eastern part of former Chamishgazak principality, Turkey), who lives in the cities of Radkan, Chenaran, Quchan, Shirvan, Daregaz and Kalat and La’in, and their villages for instance; Shamsi-khan, Zinglanlu, Chavoshlu, Mohamad-abad (suburbs of Daregaz), Spiyan, Kahu, and Takab (Tako). Some of them still travel between summer camps (Hezarmasjed, Esfejir camp) and winter camps (Heji, Maraveh-tapeh and Dashte-taqar). Subdivision of this tribe is; Torsanlu, Govareshkanlu, Khalikanlu, Buzanlu, Pazuki, Miyanlu, Khalanlu. Their last leaders were Misir-Xan Shekofteh and Haji Karam Molawi.

He seems to have studied them extensively.

So it's a kurdish tribal confederacy looks to be

[Dr_Maul]

The map obviously has high effort and research but some parts of it are simply BS

1. The ‘majority’ highlight is very misleading. As I and Meson pointed out Khorammabad and surrounding areas are almost completely Luri but shaded as Kurd (there are probably a few tribes or families but it is misleading)

2. Some of these are clearly confederations but it’s not mentioned, and it’s important because confederations are not homogenous

[Kyp]

The Javanshirs (Azerbaijani: Cavanşirlər; Persian: جوانشیران‎ – Javānširān) were a Turkic clan in Karabakh,[1] who belonged to the Afshar tribe and were in turn a branch of the Oghuz Turks. Between 1748 and 1822, members of the Javanshir clan functioned as the head of the Karabakh Khanate.


""One of the important branches of the Afshar tribe of Iran is the Afshar branch of the Osanlu, which was one of the major Afshar tribes in Zanjan province. Part of this tribe also lived in the humiliating region of Semnan (ie north of Garmsar). Basically, in the region of Zanjan province and its central regions, there were two main branches of the Turkic Afshar of Irlu and the Afshar of the Osanlu Turk. In the first volume, page 520, in the event of a conflict between Shah Abbas I and the important Afshar tribe during the Safavid period, the author of "History of the Abbasid Worlds" mentions that Shah Abbas ordered a group to be sent to the Osanlu and Irlu tribes of Afshar...."


"...Şah Abbas devrinde (1587-1628) Avşarlar başlıca şu obalara ayrılıyorlardı: Gündüzlü, Araşlu, Usalu (veya Usallu, sonra Usanlu/Osanlu), Eberlü, Alplu, İmanlu Avşarı..."

[Babak]

Interesting because other sources says they were kurds lol. Some even say persian too lmao

https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100037360147.0x000023

[Kyp]

Interesting because other sources says they were kurds lol. Some even say persian too lmao

https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100037360147.0x000023

Who are you referring to?

[Zoro]

Kizilbash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamlu

The non-Turkic or non-Turkish-speaking Iranian tribes among the Kizilbash were called Tājiks by the Turcomans and included:

Tālish
Siāh-Kuh (Karādja-Dagh)
Lur tribes (for example the Zand)
certain Kurdish tribes
certain Persian families and clans

The rivalry between the Turkic clans and Persian nobles was a major problem in the Safavid kingdom and caused much trouble.

[Babak]

Who are you referring to?

Just puting it out there

[Mejgusu]

Everyone has their own versions of history.

Yes, and unfortunately some have very silly versions of it.


They intermarried as well.

Dont come with intermarrying. No westasian(From Turkey to Uzbekistan) is ethnically or genetically pure. Thats also(especially) counts for kurds.


I honestly don't care if they're Turks or Kurds. My problem is that these guys don't appreciate all the work that goes into making all these types of maps. Do I expect that the detail in all maps is 100% accurate no who the publisher is? of course not. But don't shit on someone either because some detail is missing or a little off. At the end of the day I would much rather have his maps (I haven't even seen anything nearly as detailed out there like the dozens of maps he has) than have nothing.

I dont care about the author. Its clear, that the author was political motivated when he made this map. And let forget that, if i see a monumental mistake, i criticize it because he:

1. obtains false information from history and shares misinformation
2. forgot naming other important kurdish tribes. Instead making whole anatolia kurdish, he should inform better


Kizilbash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamlu

The non-Turkic or non-Turkish-speaking Iranian tribes among the Kizilbash were called Tājiks by the Turcomans and included:

I must admit, i use a wikipedia to inform, but if i read articles there sometimes, i really doubt about the integrity of this page. Lot of false information.


I don’t know if you guys are talking about the same tribes though. Many clans have similar names, and Mehrdad must have just assumed that the Shamlu Qizilbas were Kurds as well (I’m guessing). I know of 2/3 different tribes with same tribe names as mine for example, but we are very different.




The Shamlu he talks about lives in Khorasan and is a clan inhabiting a few villages

16- Bicharanlu (Bakran / Shamali / shamlu); a clan from Kikanlu tribe who lives in rural district of jiristan in countryside of Shirvan, villages such as; Honameh, Ghale-hasan, Gadogan, Gholanlu, Ghale-naqdo, Ghale-dolu, Kalateh-bali.
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I dont understand why its difficult to accept that EVERY tribe with -lu,-li etc are of turkic origin. Yes, maybe they arent pure turkish, but they have a turkic root.

[Kyp]

Kizilbash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamlu

The non-Turkic or non-Turkish-speaking Iranian tribes among the Kizilbash were called Tājiks by the Turcomans and included:

Tālish
Siāh-Kuh (Karādja-Dagh)
Lur tribes (for example the Zand)
certain Kurdish tribes
certain Persian families and clans

The rivalry between the Turkic clans and Persian nobles was a major problem in the Safavid kingdom and caused much trouble.

Note how Shamlu is listed as Turkoman tribe:


Some of these greater Turcoman tribes were subdivided into as many as eight or nine clans and included the:

Ustādjlu
Rumlu
Shāmlu (the most powerful clan during the reign of Shah Ismail I.)
Dulghadir (Arabic: Dhu 'l-Kadar)
Afshār
Qājār
Takkalu

[Halgurd]

I dont understand why its difficult to accept that EVERY tribe with -lu,-li etc are of turkic origin. Yes, maybe they arent pure turkish, but they have a turkic root.

There are many Kurdish tribes with li or lu ending so it's turkic influence ofc but that doesn't change the fact that they are Kurds. Khorasani Kurds have been living with Turcomans for hundreds of years now so it makes sense. But they do have their original known Kurdish names which are stated alongside it.

[Mejgusu]

Note how Shamlu is listed as Turkoman tribe:

Rumlu( those one who comes from Rum/Rome

Dulkadir is definitely turkmen origin

Takkalu/tekkeli: Many yöruks are descanted of them, also many Turkmenistan Turkmens

The point is, yes, definitely our people didnt just live isolated to each other. But please, it isnt difficult to accept that certain groups played an important role there due the history, and not all of them were kurdish.

[Halgurd]

Interesting because other sources says they were kurds lol. Some even say persian too lmao

https://www.qdl.qa/en/archive/81055/vdc_100037360147.0x000023

It's not always clear. I mean back then it wasn't like anyone cared about whether you were a Kurd, Turcoman or Persian. It was always about religion, which was the main priority, so ethnic backgrounds became obscure especially in a region like ours where there are countless number of faiths and ethnic groups.

[Mejgusu]

It's not always clear. I mean back then it wasn't like anyone cared about whether you were a Kurd, Turcoman or Persian. It was always about religion, which was the main priority, so ethnic backgrounds became obscure especially in a region like ours where there are countless number of faiths and ethnic groups.

The only thing what counted in Ottoman empire was religion too, but you know whos turkish, armenian, greek, albanian, caucasian, bosnian, kurdish etc. Thats many time exaggerated if people say only think what counted were religion.

[Halgurd]

The only thing what counted in Ottoman empire was religion too, but you know whos turkish, armenian, greek, albanian, caucasian, bosnian, kurdish etc. Thats many time exaggerated if people say only think what counted were religion.

Ottoman Empire I'm gonna say was slightly different because it was clear where ethnic boundaries where and there are documents of this as well. In official demographic statistics, for example, it would say there are x number amount of Muslims in a given city and we would know in most cases what type of Muslims they were. In major cities like Istanbul that would not be the case though.

Iran also has those clear ethnic boundaries, but outside those boundaries it is very unclear and has always been mixed. My Kurdish side is from West Azerbaijan, in a village called Qala Paswe (ironically it means Castle of Parsua) which is right next to Naqadeh a Kurdish/Azeri mixed town.

Things got really complicated when Turcoman tribes arrived in Iran.

[Zoro]

Dont come with intermarrying. No westasian(From Turkey to Uzbekistan) is ethnically or genetically pure. Thats also(especially) counts for kurds.




I don't think reasonable people who are even slightly educated will argue with that. All Iranic peoples and Turks to a lesser extent have a Zagrosian herder core and elements from the Turkey and Central Asia area.

[Mejgusu]

I don't think reasonable people who are even slightly educated will argue with that. All Iranic peoples and Turks to a lesser extent have a Zagrosian herder core and elements from the Turkey and Central Asia area.

They will agree. I know Uzbeks who once said that some families wouldnt allow to intermarry with nonuzbeks(irrelevant whether turkic), instead of tadjiks. Tadjiks and Uzbeks are 2 different people, who have deep relation to each other. Or just look to afghanistan, today maybe unfortunately not glittering but once the heart of iranian civilization, is full of intermixed people due the history.

[Babak]

Seems like every ethnic group in Iran contributed to the Safavid empire, which ultimately formed modern day Iran. Thats why its called the "Expansion realm of Iran" or "The country of Iran".

[Zoro]

They will agree. I know Uzbeks who once said that some families wouldnt allow to intermarry with nonuzbeks(irrelevant whether turkic), instead of tadjiks. Tadjiks and Uzbeks are 2 different people, who have deep relation to each other. Or just look to afghanistan, today maybe unfortunately not glittering but once the heart of iranian civilization, is full of intermixed people due the history.

Well people on the basic level are very tribal. That's why some of us are arguing here but generally this tribal mentality is with less educated people. I know many kurdish relatives that also don't want their daughters (mostly but sons too to a lesser extent) marrying people outside Kurds but I wonder if they saw how similar DNA results of other Iranics are to them whether they would still think this way. But with my relatives most are open to marrying within other Iranics and Turkmens

[Zoro]

Seems like every ethnic group in Iran contributed to the Safavid empire, which ultimately formed modern day Iran. Thats why its called the "Expansion realm of Iran" or "The country of Iran".

Well said.

[Zoro]

Ottoman Empire I'm gonna say was slightly different because it was clear where ethnic boundaries where and there are documents of this as well. In official demographic statistics, for example, it would say there are x number amount of Muslims in a given city and we would know in most cases what type of Muslims they were. In major cities like Istanbul that would not be the case though.

Iran also has those clear ethnic boundaries, but outside those boundaries it is very unclear and has always been mixed. My Kurdish side is from West Azerbaijan, in a village called Qala Paswe (ironically it means Castle of Parsua) which is right next to Naqadeh a Kurdish/Azeri mixed town.

Things got really complicated when Turcoman tribes arrived in Iran.

Interesting. Do you also have a non-Kurdish side?

[Halgurd]

Interesting. Do you also have a non-Kurdish side?

Not that I know of. My family has remained pretty homogenous

[Oghuz]

I make a map and call you a Saudi who speaks Amazigh without evidence. How would you feel?

You can't compare case of Azeris-Kurds to Kurds-Saudis. Kurds and Azeris genetically cluster very close to each other and have shared region and history both pre and post Turkification for thousands of years. Saudis have nothing to do with this region except religion.


Note how Shamlu is listed as Turkoman tribe:

Shamlu is not a tribe, it was a confederation of Turkomans (may be some non turkomans as well) in Haleb, Suriye. Shamlu is not even listed as a oghuz tribe in Diwan Lughat al-Turk. Some of the later prominent Turkic identities are synthesized from confederations in West Asia post native mixing.

Similarly, Aq Qovanlu were not a tribe either, but a confederation. Leaders came from Bayandor Oghuz tribe while military was built of multiple other tribes who got assimilated post Shah Ismails massacre of them. Some branches created their own new identities.


Stop exaggerating. With some of these tribes in Kurdish/Azeri/Turkish areas it's not that black and white. Many times some of these tribes are mixed

True but remember in our region its the male line that counts which is why the surnames and tribal identities sustain even today despite mixing. A Turk is a Turk if his male line is tribal recognized Turkoman. Same goes for other ethnic groups. Everyone of us is mixed to high proportions, we know that but identity has less to do with actual genetics.




Dont come with intermarrying. No westasian(From Turkey to Uzbekistan) is ethnically or genetically pure. Thats also(especially) counts for kurds.



I was specifically pointing out to Royal Gharaghloo Afshars intermarrying into their mighty Luri and Laki allies, Zands and Bakhtiyaris to strengthen the ties. What is the point of your post?


Seems like every ethnic group in Iran contributed to the Safavid empire, which ultimately formed modern day Iran. Thats why its called the "Expansion realm of Iran" or "The country of Iran".

Yes Kurd blooded Shahs, Turkoman Military, Persian Vakils ... Modern Iranian identity indeed.

[Mejgusu]

You can't compare case of Azeris-Kurds to Kurds-Saudis. Kurds and Azeris genetically cluster very close to each other and have shared region and history both pre and post Turkification for thousands of years. Saudis have nothing to do with this region except religion.

He didnt compare kurds with saudis. First read thoroughly, he said its like comparing saudis with amazigh.


Shamlu is not a tribe

It is a tribe.


Shamlu is not even listed as a oghuz tribe in Diwan Lughat al-Turk.

Shamlu was a tribe of membes of oghuz tribe. Kasgarli mahmut lived at 11.century, before he died the first turks arrived in anatolia,syria,azerbaijan and iraq. When he died, the emergence of westasian turkmen tribes starting out then.


Yes Kurd blooded Shahs, Turkoman Military, Persian Vakils ... Modern Iranian identity indeed.
Thats really generalized. There were non Turks in military. Which shahs were kurdish, instead of Zand dynasty.

[Zoro]

Thats really generalized. There were non Turks in military. Which shahs were kurdish, instead of Zand dynasty.

Sorry but you are wrong. Laks are Kurds and Laki is a Kurdish dialect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laks_(Iran)


Laks are a Kurdish[2][3] tribe[2] in southwestern Iran. They speak Laki (or Lekî), which is considered a Kurdish dialect[4][5][6][7][8][2] by most linguists.[9]

Laks inhabit a huge part of northern Luristan province (Laks of Pishekuh), and most of south eastern regions of neighboring province of Kermanshah, and some parts of western Ilam province (Poshte-Kuhi Laks). The area to the east of Mount Kabir is known as Pishe-Kuh and west of the mountain is Poshte-Kuh.


The Zand dynasty who ruled parts of southwestern Iran was of Laki origin

Laki Tribes

Torkashvand
Adinevand
Azadbakht
Bajelan
Jalilvand
Osmanvand
Pauravand
Kakavand
Koulivand
Yousefvand
Gorgavand
Shahivand
Rizavand
Jalalvand
Jarvand
Mafivand
Balavand
Beiranvand
Zohravand
Eslavand
Shalalvand
Hassanvand
Khajevand
Itivand
Nooraali

[Mejgusu]

Sorry but you are wrong. Laks are Kurds and Laki is a Kurdish dialect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laks_(Iran)i


Thats really generalized. There were non Turks in military. Which shahs were kurdish, instead of Zand dynasty.

i meant except....

[Zoro]

i meant except....

I thought you said Zand dynasty was not Kurdish. That’s why I said they were Laks and Laks are southern kurds. Karim Khan is a well known Zand. His gret nephew Lotf Ali Khan was killed in Bam by the Qajars. What i know is that his loyal kurdish troops accompanied him to Bam which is in Balochistan I believe and after his death remained there

[Mejgusu]

I thought you said Zand dynasty was not Kurdish. That’s why I said they were Laks and Laks are southern kurds

i just formulated false, i meant they were kurdish origin

[Dr_Maul]

The more I look at it the more I see the likely explanation that Lurs are Persianized Kurds. I think during Sassanid times they may have feared the size of the median tribes so they Persianized some of them. I think the time period makes sense too because during the caliphate era that area is also no longer associated with Media

[Zoro]

i just formulated false, i meant they were kurdish origin

Ok no problem I now understand

[Zoro]

The more I look at it the more I see the likely explanation that Lurs are Persianized Kurds. I think during Sassanid times they may have feared the size of the median tribes so they Persianized some of them. I think the time period makes sense too because during the caliphate era that area is also no longer associated with Media

That’s a very plausible and reasonable explanation

[Fedora]

This map is highly inaccurate wtf
The guy Izady who made this map claims Kurds live in that region for 10000years xD
It's a bullshit map. Lak-Kurds majoriyt in Adana, when I couldn't find kurdish villages in that area except three alevi village which came from Maras/Sivas in the 19th century in that region xD
Also "Kangal" being a kurdish tribe.

[Halgurd]

The guy Izady who made this map claims Kurds live in that region for 10000years xD
It's a bullshit map. Lak-Kurds majoriyt in Adana, when I couldn't find kurdish villages in that area except three alevi village which came from Maras/Sivas in the 19th century in that region xD
Also "Kangal" being a kurdish tribe.

Izady has a very plausible theory. He says the first unified people to dominate the mountains of Kurdistan were the Halaf culture and he says it is possible that they were the forefathers of the Hurrians. You should read his book if you haven't already.

Kurdish villages in Adana: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/kurdish-settlements-in-adana-province_93122#8/36.974/35.582

I remember a Turkish user on AS from Adana who also had Lak ancestry.

[Fedora]

Izady has a very plausible theory. He says the first unified people to dominate the mountains of Kurdistan were the Halaf culture and he says it is possible that they were the forefathers of the Hurrians. You should read his book if you haven't already.

Kurdish villages in Adana: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/kurdish-settlements-in-adana-province_93122#8/36.974/35.582

I remember a Turkish user on AS from Adana who also had Lak ancestry.
Those villages are turkish with kurds moving in in the 50s. I mean kurdish villagers who are in that area for 150 years is not more than three.

[Fedora]

Izady has a very plausible theory. He says the first unified people to dominate the mountains of Kurdistan were the Halaf culture and he says it is possible that they were the forefathers of the Hurrians. You should read his book if you haven't already.

Kurdish villages in Adana: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/kurdish-settlements-in-adana-province_93122#8/36.974/35.582

I remember a Turkish user on AS from Adana who also had Lak ancestry.
Those villages are turkish with kurds moving in in the 50s. I mean kurdish villagers who are in that area for 150 years is not more than three.
You can make a map about Istanbul being Kurdish if you go by that.

[Mejgusu]

Those villages are turkish with kurds moving in in the 50s. I mean kurdish villagers who are in that area for 150 years is not more than three.
You can make a map about Istanbul being Kurdish if you go by that.

Central anatolian kurdish villages(inter alia those ones Kirsehir) mostly founded by:

1.ottoman state after the last turkmen revolts in 19th century
2. refugees of kurdish revolts in the 30/40s

Except konya kurds, they were settled in 15th century.

[Oghuz]

He didnt compare kurds with saudis. First read thoroughly, he said its like comparing saudis with amazigh.




Still makes no sense. Kurds and Azeris cluster with each other and share region, history ... Saudis and Amazigh do not ...




It is a tribe.



Shamlu was a tribe of membes of oghuz tribe. Kasgarli mahmut lived at 11.century, before he died the first turks arrived in anatolia,syria,azerbaijan and iraq. When he died, the emergence of westasian turkmen tribes starting out then.



Diwan Lughat al-Turk does not mention Shamlu as an oghuz tribe while it does mentioned other oghuz tribes. Shamlu at best was a confederation of migrated Turkomans who moved to Haleb, Syria under Jalayered leader Amir Hassan Bozorg. Many branches of these migrated tribes later returned to Eastern Anatolia and Azerbaijan with different tribal names (I can list them and one of them later formed half of Safavid Army). Remnants of these migrated Turkomans in Syria later emerged as Shamlu.





Thats really generalized. There were non Turks in military. Which shahs were kurdish, instead of Zand dynasty.

I was talking about Saffavids. Their Shah was of Paternal Kurdish Blood, Army was Turkoman and thickest majority of the Vakils were Persians.

[Mejgusu]

Still makes no sense. Kurds and Azeris cluster with each other and share region, history ... Saudis and Amazigh do not
Because saudis and amazigh dont share the same geography. Eastern Turks, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Some Caucasian, Kurds, and some Iranians cluster together sometimes,although they are different people. Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turks have Turkic input, other are caucasian shifted, other sw-asian shifted other iranian shifted. For 1000 years its impossible that (unlike today) different people which live in peace and harmony with each together that they intermix. Btw because of that i think the relation between kurds and azervaijanis are sometimes exaggerated. Kurds and ottoman turks have more relation and history with each together. What do you think why eastern turkey become kurdish and many places of iran turkish(qashqai, afshars, azerbaijani and many other tribes). Kurds were more loyal than many turkoman tribes in anatolia, and these turkmens werent shia or alevi(at least some of them were of course).


Diwan Lughat al-Turk does not mention Shamlu as an oghuz tribe while it does mentioned other oghuz tribes. Shamlu at best was a confederation of migrated Turkomans who moved to Haleb, Syria under Jalayered leader Amir Hassan Bozorg. Many branches of these migrated tribes later returned to Eastern Anatolia and Azerbaijan with different tribal names (I can list them and one of them later formed half of Safavid Army). Remnants of these migrated Turkomans in Syria later emerged as Shamlu.

Confederation and tribe were sometimes the same thing. Or better:confederations became to tribes. Many turkmen tribes emerged, again, after kasgarli mahmut.


I was talking about Saffavids. Their Shah was of Paternal Kurdish Blood, Army was Turkoman and thickest majority of the Vakils were Persians.

Paternal side is often described as kurdish because the founder of safevi sect was maybe kurdish. I dont deny that and thats possible, but there are authors and historians who say he was „just“ a persian, some claim he was of preturkic azari(iranian) origin. The father of shah ismail I. was 1/2 turkmen 1/2 kurdish/persian/azari whatever. His mother 1/2 pontic greek 1/2 turkmen. So after intermixing with many ethnicities in harem with full of wifes they were everything, like ottomans. I mean ottomans claimed they were descants of oghuz khan, but there arent any proof for that.

[Dr_Maul]

ottomans claimed they were descants of oghuz khan, but there arent any proof for that.

Ottoman dynasty is J2 right? If they really are descendants of Oghuz khan, then that makes J2 the god of haplogroups

Oghuz Khan J2 -> Ultimate Warriors
Mycenaean / Minoan J2 -> Ultimate Ancient Civilization

And yet people still flex about being R1 :coffee:

[Halgurd]

Because saudis and amazigh dont share the same geography. Eastern Turks, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Some Caucasian, Kurds, and some Iranians cluster together sometimes,although they are different people. Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turks have Turkic input, other are caucasian shifted, other sw-asian shifted other iranian shifted. For 1000 years its impossible that (unlike today) different people which live in peace and harmony with each together that they intermix. Btw because of that i think the relation between kurds and azervaijanis are sometimes exaggerated. Kurds and ottoman turks have more relation and history with each together.


Iranian Azeris and Kurds are almost genetically indistinguishable. I get Azeri as top match on many calculators.


What do you think why eastern turkey become kurdish and many places of iran turkish(qashqai, afshars, azerbaijani and many other tribes). Kurds were more loyal than many turkoman tribes in anatolia, and these turkmens werent shia or alevi(at least some of them were of course).

Kurdish loyalty to Ottomans is over exaggerated as well. For most of Ottoman history Kurdish tribes didn’t care what the Sultan or the Shah thought. Kurds were relatively independent until the 19th century. Many different Kurdish emirates and principalities fought battles against the Ottomans even after Chaldiran.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Kurdish_states_1835.png

[Mejgusu]

Ottoman dynasty is J2 right? If they really are descendants of Oghuz khan, then that makes J2 the god of haplogroups

Oghuz Khan J2 -> Ultimate Warriors
Mycenaean / Minoan J2 -> Ultimate Ancient Civilization

And yet people still flex about being R1 :coffee:

I dont know, i once read they were r1a



Iranian Azeris and Kurds are almost genetically indistinguishable. I get Azeri as top match on many calculators.

No. Auerbaijanis are sometimes more northern (caucasian) shifted and have a bit more european admix. And in average 5-10% (or from 3- nearly 20%) eastasian. Kurds mostly Sw-asian/med shifted. But yes they are cluster sonetimes, because:
Eastern Turks, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Some Caucasian, Kurds, and some Iranians cluster together sometimes,although they are different people. Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turks have Turkic input, other are caucasian shifted, other sw-asian shifted other iranian shifted. For 1000 years its impossible that (unlike today) different people which live in peace and harmony with each together that they intermix.


Kurdish loyalty to Ottomans is over exaggerated as well. For most of Ottoman history Kurdish tribes didn’t care what the Sultan or the Shah thought. Kurds were relatively independent until the 19th century. Many different Kurdish emirates and principalities fought battles against the Ottomans even after Chaldiran.






Kurds were one of the most loyal people inside ottoman empire. Also they weren’t independent until 19th century. They were autonomous, because they helped to control eastern anatolia, where lived high amount of non muslims. The ottomans trusted kurdish tribes. To say kurdish tribes didnt care about the sultan is, sorry, very ridiculous. Yes they dont care about the the status of sultan or that they were turkish rulers, but the sultans were also caliphs and kurds definitely care about that. The first revolts of kurds in republican era in turkey werent nationalistically, they were religious motivated because the caliphate was abolished.

[Mejgusu]

Because saudis and amazigh dont share the same geography. Eastern Turks, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Some Caucasian, Kurds, and some Iranians cluster together sometimes,although they are different people. Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turks have Turkic input, other are caucasian shifted, other sw-asian shifted other iranian shifted. For 1000 years its impossible that (unlike today) different people which live in peace and harmony with each together that they intermix. .

I meant its impossible that they didnt intermix i

[Kyp]

I dont know, i once read they were r1a

.


Map 2. Ottoman Empire
According to DNA tests, authentic descendants of the 24 oghuzs tribes, migrated from Southern Siberia in Anatolia, are the carriers of haplogroups: R1a-Z93, R1b-M73, R1b-M269, N1c, N1b, Q1a, G1a, and possibly part of the subclades J2. Because that representatives of these haplogroups from Anatolian Turks found their distant relatives — among the Turkic peoples of Siberia, the Ural, the Volga region and the Trans Caspian.

[Halgurd]

Kurds were one of the most loyal people inside ottoman empire. Also they weren’t independent until 19th century. They were autonomous, because they helped to control eastern anatolia, where lived high amount of non muslims. The ottomans trusted kurdish tribes. To say kurdish tribes didnt care about the sultan is, sorry, very ridiculous. Yes they dont care about the the status of sultan or that they were turkish rulers, but the sultans were also caliphs and kurds definitely care about that. The first revolts of kurds in republican era in turkey werent nationalistically, they were religious motivated because the caliphate was abolished.

There's a difference between autonomy and independence. Officially Ottomans considered it part of the empire but laws, taxes, military were all decisions in the hands of Kurdish Mirs. The Ottomans had 0 jurisdiction. The Soran emirate even had its own flag and had an expansionist policy to include all Kurdish lands under the rule of Mir Kor (aka 'the Blind King').

No really Kurds didn't care about the sultan. Look at the wars the major principalities waged against the Ottomans particularly in Botan and Soran. The Ottomans destroyed all those principalities using its military force in the 19th century during its centralisation program. 20th century was a different story the only religious conflict was by Sheikh Said. The majority of others, like in Ararat and Kocgiri were all nationalist. Before all of that we have the uprising of Sheikh Ubeydullah Nehri which was also nationalistic.

[Oghuz]

Because saudis and amazigh dont share the same geography.

Saudis and Amazigh do not share region and genetics but Kurds and Azeris do. For thousands of year they have been living side by side, pre or post Turkification. One just can't compare Kurd-Azeri shared history to peninsular Arabs and north Africans.


Eastern Turks, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Some Caucasian, Kurds, and some Iranians cluster together sometimes,although they are different people.


Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turks have Turkic input, other are caucasian shifted, other sw-asian shifted other iranian shifted.

Not very different actually. Pre Turkification, NW Iran or Azerbaijan region was densely populated and had its own Medes driven traditions, language and culture. It was a well developed region. Kurds and Azeris both stem from Medes roots and that is why even with Turkic input, modern Azeri turks on average cluster closest to their old cousins, neighboring Kurds.

By the way not every Azeri descends directly from Oghuz tribes. This is a misconception that people on internet usually have. There are elite Turkoman families who can recognize their paternal ancestors up to 11th-13th century which makes them actual Turkomans, but how many of the majority general population can? Migratory events always add mild genetic layer because native population is always larger in size. Turkification of Azerbaijan was mildly genetic but more cultural in form of language and identity shifting for biggest chunks of population either through marriages and just newer identity adaptations. Not every Azeri is a direct descendant of Qajar, Bayat and Kinik Chieftains.


For 1000 years its impossible that (unlike today) different people which live in peace and harmony with each together that they intermix. Btw because of that i think the relation between kurds and azervaijanis are sometimes exaggerated. Kurds and ottoman turks have more relation and history with each together. What do you think why eastern turkey become kurdish and many places of iran turkish(qashqai, afshars, azerbaijani and many other tribes). Kurds were more loyal than many turkoman tribes in anatolia, and these turkmens werent shia or alevi(at least some of them were of course).


Politics is always above ethnicity and religious sects.




Confederation and tribe were sometimes the same thing. Or better:confederations became to tribes. Many turkmen tribes emerged, again, after kasgarli mahmut.



Not the same thing if we consider the original oghuz tribes who moved to west Asia. Shamlu has no Turkic tribal identity before Hassan Bozorg Jalayer (Mongolian prince) took his different loyal clans (Turks, Turko-mongols, Non Turks) to Haleb Syria. Later on these people started calling themselves Shamlu. That is not the definition of an Oghuz Tribe.



Paternal side is often described as kurdish because the founder of safevi sect was maybe kurdish. I dont deny that and thats possible, but there are authors and historians who say he was „just“ a persian, some claim he was of preturkic azari(iranian) origin. The father of shah ismail I. was 1/2 turkmen 1/2 kurdish/persian/azari whatever. His mother 1/2 pontic greek 1/2 turkmen. So after intermixing with many ethnicities in harem with full of wifes they were everything, like ottomans. I mean ottomans claimed they were descants of oghuz khan, but there arent any proof for that.

Among our Turkoman tribal standards, we consider male line as the true identity marker. Shah Ismail was by male line a Kurdish man, only a fool would deny that. His mother, grand mothers do not matter in this case by Turkoman standards. If we go by mothers then he was khorosani persian, greek, turk, georgian but again that is not the Turkoman way of identifying a man. Being a non Turkic person he had no tribal affiliation which is why Safavid grip over their kizilbas Army and Persian Vakils became weak. Their allied tribes were loyal to Safavid royals because of faith.

And Ottomans very openly connected themselves to their Kayi chieftain Ertugrul Shah. Same way Shah Ismails ancestor was Feroz Shah Zarrin Kolah.

[Eline]

Not very different actually. Pre Turkification, NW Iran or Azerbaijan region was densely populated and had its own Medes driven traditions, language and culture. It was a well developed region. Kurds and Azeris both stem from Medes roots and that is why even with Turkic input, modern Azeri turks on average cluster closest to their old cousins, neighboring Kurds.Since the last 150 years many Kurds have been assimilated into the Azeri population. Even the president of the Republic of Azerbaijan (Aliev) has Kurdish paternal lineage.

[Mejgusu]

Saudis and Amazigh do not share region and genetics but Kurds and Azeris do. For thousands of year they have been living side by side, pre or post Turkification. One just can't compare Kurd-Azeri shared history to peninsular Arabs and north Africans..

Not pre or post turcification, thats azari(iranian)and azerbaijani(turkic) are 2 different people. First were pre turkic people of azerbaijan the second one the common turkic people. And again, i answered that, he just exaggerated to visualize.


Not very different actually. Pre Turkification, NW Iran or Azerbaijan region was densely populated and had its own Medes driven traditions, language and culture. It was a well developed region. Kurds and Azeris both stem from Medes roots and that is why even with Turkic input, modern Azeri turks on average cluster closest to their old cousins, neighboring Kurds.

1. Auerbaijan and Azerbajanis know that Medes played an important role in their land and culture, they dont deny any foreign influence to their ethnicity.
2. There arent any evidence that medes score east asian, maybe those ones from scythian who brought it from eurasian steppes, where always be multiethnical and also lived non iranics.
3. i dont understand why people associate kurds with medes, medic language and culture is related to kurdish like every other iranic people. Also todays azerbaijan region were populated of other non iranics. caucasians also have a history, thats sometimes forgotten...


By the way not every Azeri descends directly from Oghuz tribes. This is a misconception that people on internet usually have. There are elite Turkoman families who can recognize their paternal ancestors up to 11th-13th century which makes them actual Turkomans, but how many of the majority general population can? Migratory events always add mild genetic layer because native population is always larger in size. Turkification of Azerbaijan was mildly genetic but more cultural in form of language and identity shifting for biggest chunks of population either through marriages and just newer identity adaptations. Not every Azeri is a direct descendant of Qajar, Bayat and Kinik Chieftains.


Sorry, dont agree. Yes azerbaijanis are mixed and that means they also have non turkic ancestors, but the same thing counts for, ONCE AGAIN, for every people in that region, better for every westasian or multiethnic states. So genetics and history say that Azerbaijanid have a turkic input, some more some less. The preturkic people there, some get assimilated some not. According your logic, that a turkoman elite ruled there, every iranian would be turkic today. Azerbaijanis are, whether you agree or disagree(but i think whether you like or dislike) except sone cases descendants of turkmen tribes.


Not the same thing if we consider the original oghuz tribes who moved to west Asia. Shamlu has no Turkic tribal identity before Hassan Bozorg Jalayer (Mongolian prince) took his different loyal clans (Turks, Turko-mongols, Non Turks) to Haleb Syria. Later on these people started calling themselves Shamlu. That is not the definition of an Oghuz Tribe.

I dont know whether you dont understand or you dont want to understand, but there are a difference between turkmen and oghuz tribe. Oghuz tribes are subdivisions of the oghuz tribe, turkmen tribes were formed by , sometimes by just one sometimes of many oghuz tribes. There are many examples in oghuz states. Also other turkic states have the same case, there are karluk or kyochak tribes which arent named after karluk/kypchak subdivisions. Shamlu were! a turkmen tribe, or name it confederation i dont care, it was turcoman.


Among our Turkoman tribal standards, we consider male line as the true identity marker. Shah Ismail was by male line a Kurdish man, only a fool would deny that. His mother, grand mothers do not matter in this case by Turkoman standards. If we go by mothers then he was khorosani persian, greek, turk, georgian but again that is not the Turkoman way of identifying a man. Being a non Turkic person he had no tribal affiliation which is why Safavid grip over their kizilbas Army and Persian Vakils became weak. Their allied tribes were loyal to Safavid royals because of faith.

And Ottomans very openly connected themselves to their Kayi chieftain Ertugrul Shah. Same way Shah Ismails ancestor was Feroz Shah Zarrin Kolah.

Yes you are right, i just say that they speak and saw themseves as Azerbaijani turks and wanted be the next persian state. Also its not clear which origin this sect really has, most probably that what you mentioned the „preturkic“ azari or persian. So i didnt say anything about ertugrul, i said they claimed that they were descants of oghuz khan, what isnt right.


Since the last 150 years many Kurds have been assimilated into the Azeri population. Even the president of the Republic of Azerbaijan (Aliev) has Kurdish paternal lineage.


I dont know what belgians say, we in germany just say „back dir ein eis“

Really, that nonsense you not even think up if you under drugs.

[Babak]

Not pre or post turcification, thats azari(iranian)and azerbaijani(turkic) are 2 different people. First were pre turkic people of azerbaijan the second one the common turkic people. And again, i answered that, he just exaggerated to visualize.




Actually bro Azerbaijani and Azari are the same thing. There was no "Azari Iranian" tribe. Azeri is the shortened word of Azerbaijani and it refers to a geographical location.

The Pre-turkic people of Iranian azerbaijan were scattered Iranic and caucasian tribes such as Talysh and Kurds for example.

[omanikus]

most of them are Irano-Nordoid and Pamirid race

[Dr_Maul]

Actually bro Azerbaijani and Azari are the same thing. There was no "Azari Iranian" tribe. Azeri is the shortened word of Azerbaijani and it refers to a geographical location.

The Pre-turkic people of Iranian azerbaijan were scattered Iranic tribes such as Talysh and Kurds for example.

I think he is talking about Atropatene tribe of Medes which lived in now Azerbaijan. The name Azerbaijan comes from Atropatene as well, idk what the Persian word for it is but it might be Azari

[Dr_Maul]

double

[Mejgusu]

Actually bro Azerbaijani and Azari are the same thing. There was no "Azari Iranian" tribe. Azeri is the shortened word of Azerbaijani and it refers to a geographical location.

The Pre-turkic people of Iranian azerbaijan were scattered Iranic and caucasian tribes such as Talysh and Kurds for example.

No some people shortens to Azeri, but not to azari. In turkey some azerbaijanis and historians rail if we call them azeri, they say call us azerbaijani or azerbaijan turks/turkics whatever. Nevertheless most of us call them azeri.

The Azari language and culture was probably related to tats or talysh people.

[Mejgusu]

I think he is talking about Atropatene tribe of Medes which lived in now Azerbaijan. The name Azerbaijan comes from Atropatene as well, idk what the Persian word for it is but it might be Azari

No, azaris were probably some subgroup of talysh or tat people.

[Dr_Maul]

No, azaris were probably some subgroup of talysh or tat people.

Whats the difference? Talysh, Tat, all of them are modern subgroups of Atropatene tribes

[Mejgusu]

Whats the difference? Talysh, Tat, all of them are modern subgroups of Atropatene tribes

Idk know that, if its true you were right.

[Kyp]

No some people shortens to Azeri, but not to azari. In turkey some azerbaijanis and historians rail if we call them azeri, they say call us azerbaijani or azerbaijan turks/turkics whatever. Nevertheless most of us call them azeri.

The Azari language and culture was probably related to tats or talysh people.

I don't have a problem with being called Azeri, Azerbaijani etc.
It mostly referrs to a region to me not to an ethnic although there might is an agenda behind calling Azerbaijani Turks as Azari/Azeri sometimes. But most of the time it is not.

The problem I have is getting called Iranic, which sometimes happens on this forum. While Azerbaijanis obviously are partly Iranic I feel to be considered Iranic, an Iranian language has to be your mother tongue. So Azerbaijanis are not an Iranic group.

Azerbaijanis are a Turkic group consisting of various Turkic elements (Bayat, Afshar, Terekeme etc.), Iranic (Azari, Kurdish = Median) and Caucasian elements and their place is Azerbaijan. Plus there are also groups that originate from Azerbaijan that are dispersed throughout Persia and the Caucasus/Anatolia who also could be referred to as Azerbaijani imo. That's my definition.

[Babak]

No some people shortens to Azeri, but not to azari. In turkey some azerbaijanis and historians rail if we call them azeri, they say call us azerbaijani or azerbaijan turks/turkics whatever. Nevertheless most of us call them azeri.

The Azari language and culture was probably related to tats or talysh people.

I don't think theres evidence that supports this idea. "Azeri" was a term invented by Stalin and Bolsheviks to divide the Turkic speakers of Iranian azerbaijan and Republic of Azerbaijan I believe. The same way Soviets and Brits used terms like "Tajik" in order to accomplish the same thing with Persians.

[Halgurd]

DNA doesn’t lie:

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 37.88
2 SW_Asian 22.17
3 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 19.35
4 WHG 8.17
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 6.55
6 Siberian_E_Asian 2.68
7 SE_Asian 2.3
8 Ancestral_South_Indian 0.81
9 W_African 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Azeri 2.77
2 Kurd_N 5.94
3 Iranian 6.22
4 Azeri_Dagestan 7.78
5 Kumyk 8.8
6 Adygei 8.82
7 Abkhasian 9.01
8 Georgian 9.52
9 Turkish 9.89
10 Armenian 10.27
11 Chechen 10.33
12 Georgian_Jew 10.55
13 Lezgin 12.02
14 Kurd_C 12.24
15 Iranian_Jew 12.84
16 Iraqi_Jew 16.84
17 Druze 17.04
18 Syrian 17.52
19 Lebanese 17.77
20 Cypriot 19.07

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98% Azeri + 2% Karelia_HG @ 1.86
2 98% Azeri + 2% Samara_HG @ 1.86
3 85.2% Azeri + 14.8% Lezgin @ 1.86
4 96.2% Azeri + 3.8% Srubnaya @ 1.87
5 96.4% Azeri + 3.6% RISE_baAndrov @ 1.87
6 96.5% Azeri + 3.5% RISE_baSin @ 1.89
7 95.6% Azeri + 4.4% Scythian_IA @ 1.97
8 84% Azeri + 16% Chechen @ 1.98
9 96.3% Azeri + 3.7% RISE_baUne @ 1.98
10 96.6% Azeri + 3.4% RISE_baMezh @ 2.01
11 97.9% Azeri + 2.1% MA1 @ 2.08
12 96.5% Azeri + 3.5% RISE_baBb @ 2.09
13 82.8% Azeri + 17.2% Kumyk @ 2.13
14 81.6% Azeri + 18.4% Azeri_Dagestan @ 2.21
15 97% Azeri + 3% RISE_baSca @ 2.21
16 87.7% Kurd_N + 12.3% Tatars @ 2.22
17 97.2% Azeri + 2.8% Estonian @ 2.25
18 97.2% Azeri + 2.8% Lithuanian @ 2.27
19 97% Azeri + 3% Belarusian @ 2.29
20 96.8% Azeri + 3.2% Norwegian @ 2.31

[Mejgusu]

I don't have a problem with being called Azeri, Azerbaijani etc.
It mostly referrs to a region to me not to an ethnic although there might is an agenda behind calling Azerbaijani Turks as Azari/Azeri sometimes. But most of the time it is not.

The problem I have is getting called Iranic, which sometimes happens on this forum. While Azerbaijanis obviously are partly Iranic I feel to be considered Iranic, an Iranian language has to be your mother tongue. So Azerbaijanis are not an Iranic group.

Azerbaijanis are a Turkic group consisting of various Turkic elements (Bayat, Afshar, Terekeme etc.), Iranic (Azari, Kurdish = Median) and Caucasian elements and their place is Azerbaijan. Plus there are also groups that originate from Azerbaijan that are dispersed throughout Persia and the Caucasus/Anatolia who also could be referred to as Azerbaijani imo. That's my definition.

Thank you, especially for that highlightet sentence.



I don't think theres evidence that supports this idea. "Azeri" was a term invented by Stalin and Bolsheviks to divide the Turkic speakers of Iranian azerbaijan and Republic of Azerbaijan I believe. The same way Soviets and Brits used terms like "Tajik" in order to accomplish the same thing with Persians.

Various time i read and heard about those "azaris", idk but i really believe that there were an other subgroup of iranians, like tats or talysch.
And yes stalin was a cleve guy, maniac but clever. He knew how steal peoples identity.


DNA doesn’t lie:

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 37.88
2 SW_Asian 22.17
3 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 19.35
4 WHG 8.17
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 6.55
6 Siberian_E_Asian 2.68
7 SE_Asian 2.3
8 Ancestral_South_Indian 0.81
9 W_African 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Azeri 2.77
2 Kurd_N 5.94
3 Iranian 6.22
4 Azeri_Dagestan 7.78
5 Kumyk 8.8
6 Adygei 8.82
7 Abkhasian 9.01
8 Georgian 9.52
9 Turkish 9.89
10 Armenian 10.27
11 Chechen 10.33
12 Georgian_Jew 10.55
13 Lezgin 12.02
14 Kurd_C 12.24
15 Iranian_Jew 12.84
16 Iraqi_Jew 16.84
17 Druze 17.04
18 Syrian 17.52
19 Lebanese 17.77
20 Cypriot 19.07

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98% Azeri + 2% Karelia_HG @ 1.86
2 98% Azeri + 2% Samara_HG @ 1.86
3 85.2% Azeri + 14.8% Lezgin @ 1.86
4 96.2% Azeri + 3.8% Srubnaya @ 1.87
5 96.4% Azeri + 3.6% RISE_baAndrov @ 1.87
6 96.5% Azeri + 3.5% RISE_baSin @ 1.89
7 95.6% Azeri + 4.4% Scythian_IA @ 1.97
8 84% Azeri + 16% Chechen @ 1.98
9 96.3% Azeri + 3.7% RISE_baUne @ 1.98
10 96.6% Azeri + 3.4% RISE_baMezh @ 2.01
11 97.9% Azeri + 2.1% MA1 @ 2.08
12 96.5% Azeri + 3.5% RISE_baBb @ 2.09
13 82.8% Azeri + 17.2% Kumyk @ 2.13
14 81.6% Azeri + 18.4% Azeri_Dagestan @ 2.21
15 97% Azeri + 3% RISE_baSca @ 2.21
16 87.7% Kurd_N + 12.3% Tatars @ 2.22
17 97.2% Azeri + 2.8% Estonian @ 2.25
18 97.2% Azeri + 2.8% Lithuanian @ 2.27
19 97% Azeri + 3% Belarusian @ 2.29
20 96.8% Azeri + 3.2% Norwegian @ 2.31


Yes Dna doesnt lie. I said some are more Turkic influenced, some less. Even those who are less influenced, if they feel being azerbaijani turkic, then they are. You guys make it difficult and i dont want dispute here, also i dont want that this thread(which already got off topic, but its interesting) get off topic. But always saying azerbaijanis are just turkified makes me a little bit annoyed. Kurds, at least those in Turkey are heavily intermixed with many other. But i dont come here and say that they are not real kurds. So i dont (or do) understand why its liked to make azerbaijanis turkified people. Please dont misunderstand me.

[Halgurd]

Yes Dna doesnt lie. I said some are more Turkic influenced, some less. Even those who are less influenced, if they feel being azerbaijani turkic, then they are. You guys make it difficult and i dont want dispute here, also i dont want that this thread(which already got off topic, but its interesting) get off topic. But always saying azerbaijanis are just turkified makes me a little bit annoyed. Kurds, at least those in Turkey are heavily intermixed with many other. But i dont come here and say that they are not real kurds. So i dont (or do) understand why its liked to make azerbaijanis turkified people. Please dont misunderstand me.

Who are Kurds intermixed with? There are some Kurds with Armenian ancestry but that’s about it.

I don’t know whether Azeris are Turkified or not (I never claimed that), but what I do know is that they are basically the same as me from a DNA point of view and it’s widely accepted that Azerbaijan was at one time considered the heartland of the Medes.

[Demhat]

Thank you, especially for that highlightet sentence.




Various time i read and heard about those "azaris", idk but i really believe that there were an other subgroup of iranians, like tats or talysch.
And yes stalin was a cleve guy, maniac but clever. He knew how steal peoples identity.



Yes Dna doesnt lie. I said some are more Turkic influenced, some less. Even those who are less influenced, if they feel being azerbaijani turkic, then they are. You guys make it difficult and i dont want dispute here, also i dont want that this thread(which already got off topic, but its interesting) get off topic. But always saying azerbaijanis are just turkified makes me a little bit annoyed. Kurds, at least those in Turkey are heavily intermixed with many other. But i dont come here and say that they are not real kurds. So i dont (or do) understand why its liked to make azerbaijanis turkified people. Please dont misunderstand me.

Someones ethnicity is determined by his self designation. Which is influenced by language culture etc. . So no one has the right to say Azeris are assimilated Turkics or Iranics.

Let the Azeris decide for themselves. I would't like people to claim Kurds as "kurdified" x and y people. You wouldn't like to be called turkified Anatolians and so on.

[Mejgusu]

Who are Kurds intermixed with?

Armenians, assyrians, jews and turkomans. The "purest" kurds in turkey are those ones from konya and some of iraqi border.


Who are Kurds intermixed with? There are some Kurds with Armenian ancestry but that’s about it.

Thats a bit underestimated. I dont wanna approach somebody so lets leave it all.


Someones ethnicity is determined by his self designation. Which is influenced by language culture etc. . So no one has the right to say Azeris are assimilated Turkics or Iranics.

Let the Azeris decide for themselves. I would't like people to claim Kurds as "kurdified" x and y people. You wouldn't like to be called turkified Anatolians and so on.

Yes your are right. Because of that i am saying azerbaijanis are a turkic people. I dont see them as a different people, you also dont see syrian, turkey iran and iraq kurd as a different people. We turks say "iki devlet bir/tek millet" (two state one people)and i many times heard azerbaijanis say "Bir ananin iki oglu, bir agacin iki kolu" (two sons of a mother, two arms/branches of a tree). Also i understood that a certain group want to make azerbaijanis nonturkic, who have a certain position to turkics.

So i am out here, i dont want to dispute.

[Demhat]

Armenians, assyrians, jews and turkomans. The "purest" kurds in turkey are those ones from konya and some of iraqi border.


You don't need to put "purest" in quotation marks because what you wrote there is incorrect in it's core. Kurds are one of the most homogenous people in Western Asia. They are genetically more homogenous than the large majority of other ethnic groups in West Asia. Kurds form their own cluster.

I don't deny that there was mixing with Turks, Assyrians, Turkmens and Armenians. It would be dumb to assume the opposite. But this mixing did not have a significant effect on the Kurds. Kurds from the most Northern parts of Eastern Anatolia are still genetically closer to Kurds from the most Southeastern part of the Iran, than they are to an Assyrian, Turkoman Armenian or Turk that is a fact proven by genetics.

[Oghuz]

Not pre or post turcification, thats azari(iranian)and azerbaijani(turkic) are 2 different people. First were pre turkic people of azerbaijan the second one the common turkic people. And again, i answered that, he just exaggerated to visualize.


1. Auerbaijan and Azerbajanis know that Medes played an important role in their land and culture, they dont deny any foreign influence to their ethnicity.
2. There arent any evidence that medes score east asian, maybe those ones from scythian who brought it from eurasian steppes, where always be multiethnical and also lived non iranics.
3. i dont understand why people associate kurds with medes, medic language and culture is related to kurdish like every other iranic people. Also todays azerbaijan region were populated of other non iranics. caucasians also have a history, thats sometimes forgotten...



They are not two people. They are one for quite some time now. Intermixing has been such among Azerbaijan settled Turkomans and NW Iranics that Iranian Azeris cluster with their NW Iranics instead of any other Turkic groups.

Azerbaijan region was well established and good amount populated for millennia before Oghuz migration and settlement. Medes had its strong Iranic culture, language, history. Iranian Azeri Turks have 70-80 % local Azeri genetics from this region hence modern day Iranian Azeri (of recognized Turkoman lineage) is a descendant of two great histories. His NW Iranic history makes him a descendant of Mighty Iranian civilization/Empires like the one in my signature and his Oghuz Turkic Genes makes him a descendant of his Kizilbas warriors who defended Iran for centuries against enemies.

Again Kurdish-Azeri genetic and cultural clustering cant be compared to Saudis-Amazigh no matter how much one tries to distance Azeris from NW Iranics.

Medes and grand Iranic history didn't "play role" in our history. Its our "own" history preserved in native part of our blood and soil that we live on. Other Turkic needs Turkic identity badly even if they are like 15-20% Turkoman because that is the only thing they have. In contrast we Iranian Turks have our warrior kizilbas turkoman blood and NW Iranic blood because of mixing which makes us unique and rich in every aspect.




Sorry, dont agree. Yes azerbaijanis are mixed and that means they also have non turkic ancestors, but the same thing counts for, ONCE AGAIN, for every people in that region, better for every westasian or multiethnic states. So genetics and history say that Azerbaijanid have a turkic input, some more some less. The preturkic people there, some get assimilated some not.



Its not same for every kind of Turkic in West Asia because now after 10 centuries post turkic migration our native proportions differ. If you peel off the 20-25 % average Turkic input in Iranian Azeris the rest of our genes belong to glorious history of Iran. We own that mighty Iranic history as much as Persians of central or Khorasan do. Same can't be said about other Turkic nations whose native genes do not have such history. When we consider native proportions of our genetics, Iranian Azeris were never slaves and subjects of Byzantines, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Armenians and what not for millennia. Out of our 3000 years Iranic + 1000 years old Turkic history we have been independent martial group for 80-90 % of the time. This is why Iranian Azeris, esp the upper class tribal chieftain descendant families, do not go around Larping about Turkic this and Persian that. We do not need these ethnic identities, because we went far beyond that after settling down in this region.



According your logic, that a turkoman elite ruled there, every iranian would be turkic today. Azerbaijanis are, whether you agree or disagree(but i think whether you like or dislike) except sone cases descendants of turkmen tribes.



not exactly because its illogical to think that pre Turkic Azeri population just vanished in the air and got replaced by incoming tribes. Not once in history has there been a migration in an already settled land where incoming group has totally replaced the already settled group. The native group is always larger in size and ends up contributing to the new genetics more. Same case is with other Turkic in region where average Turkic input stands at 20-22 % on average. Its law of nature.

Every azeri is not oghuz descendant directly. majority got Turkified by marriages, cultural shifting because incoming tribes were less in numbers. Its common sense.



I dont know whether you dont understand or you dont want to understand, but there are a difference between turkmen and oghuz tribe. Oghuz tribes are subdivisions of the oghuz tribe, turkmen tribes were formed by , sometimes by just one sometimes of many oghuz tribes. There are many examples in oghuz states. Also other turkic states have the same case, there are karluk or kyochak tribes which arent named after karluk/kypchak subdivisions. Shamlu were! a turkmen tribe, or name it confederation i dont care, it was turcoman.



Jalayer Mongol Chieftains + Turkic + Non Turkic army in an Arab land is not equivalent to a Turkic tribe. Its like 4-5 million Azeris in Tehran (heavily mixed with Persians, Kurds, Caspians) start calling themselves as Tehranloo Oghuz tribe.




Yes you are right, i just say that they speak and saw themseves as Azerbaijani turks and wanted be the next persian state. Also its not clear which origin this sect really has, most probably that what you mentioned the „preturkic“ azari or persian. So i didnt say anything about ertugrul, i said they claimed that they were descants of oghuz khan, what isnt right.


Safavi were Kurdish by blood themselves and they had Kizilbas Turkoman Army and Persian Vakils, Georgian Ghilmans. They saw themselves Safavi not Iranic or Turkic because that is how royals think. Safavi rule was a theocratic monarch.

Ottoman lineage descends back to Kayi chieftain Ertugrul Gazi (Oghuz) just like how Ismail Shah Safavi descends from Feroz Shah Zarrin Kolah (Kurdish).

[Kyp]

Again Kurdish-Azeri genetic and cultural clustering cant be compared to Saudis-Amazigh no matter how much one tries to distance Azeris from NW Iranics.

Why are you so hung up by that comparison. I didn't meant it to compare Kurdish+Azeri relation to Azeri+Amazigh relation relax. But labelling some Turkoman clans as Kurdish is wrong nonetheless.




This is why Iranian Azeris, esp the upper class tribal chieftain descendant families, do not go around Larping about Turkic this and Persian that. We do not need these ethnic identities, because we went far beyond that after settling down in this region.

who does that though? It just seems sometimes you are getting offended when the historical relevance of Turk tribes, language etc. of the region is even mentioned. Because you feel it offends your modern day nationalism, when in fact it doesn't.





not exactly because its illogical to think that pre Turkic Azeri population just vanished in the air and got replaced by incoming tribes. Not once in history has there been a migration in an already settled land where incoming group has totally replaced the already settled group. The native group is always larger in size and ends up contributing to the new genetics more. Same case is with other Turkic in region where average Turkic input stands at 20-22 % on average. Its law of nature.

Every azeri is not oghuz descendant directly. majority got Turkified by marriages, cultural shifting because incoming tribes were less in numbers. Its common sense.

It should be noted that a lot of historians visiting the region from 13th to 16th century mentioning the big Turkoman tribes (like Afshar etc.) who dwelled in tents around the cities had much more manpower than the local rural population, which also explains the turkish domination in terms of Aristocracy and language in this region. Of course in addition there were nomadic Kurdish tribes too. i'm not arguing about genetics here.





Jalayer Mongol Chieftains + Turkic + Non Turkic army in an Arab land is not equivalent to a Turkic tribe. Its like 4-5 million Azeris in Tehran (heavily mixed with Persians, Kurds, Caspians) start calling themselves as Tehranloo Oghuz tribe.

That's called evolution. Population grows and grows, subdivision have to be created and allies have to be incorporated to guarantee survival. Even original Oghuz clans of Transoxania incorporated Iranic tribes into their clans. One can't even be sure that all original Oghuz clans are paternally turkic (as YDNA suggests). If we go by that logic. Shamlu is turkic speaking and therefore: Turkoman. And they were commonly referred to as such from historical accounts of the 16th century.




Safavi were Kurdish by blood themselves and they had Kizilbas Turkoman Army and Persian Vakils, Georgian Ghilmans. They saw themselves Safavi not Iranic or Turkic because that is how royals think. Safavi rule was a theocratic monarch.

Ottoman lineage descends back to Kayi chieftain Ertugrul Gazi (Oghuz) just like how Ismail Shah Safavi descends from Feroz Shah Zarrin Kolah (Kurdish).


correct.

[Mejgusu]

They dont want to understand abd they wont. Its hard to answere to that nonsense. I say, i DONT deny iranian AND caucasian influence to azerbaijanis, genetically as well culturally. To deny their turkic heritage, genetically as well culturally, is totally dementia. What i deny, except safavids(also here i am very doubtful) is the kurdish importance. Many serious historians say the preturkic iranians of azerbaijan were related to tat/talysh. Always saying „yeah they are clustering with us“ or „kurds the most homogeneous people in this region“ have no meaning for me. I didnt want to do that but i am fed up to repeat the same stuff every and every post. No one time i came here like unlike many others and attacked someone, i tried to be polite and factual. Now i cant. Instead of denying the heritage of auerbaijanis you should deal with your own. We all know, and i dont care how you are deceiving yourself, but even azerbaijanis have more iranic influence than the most kurds ive seen. You come here and try with pseudoscientific and political motivated maps and sources spread nonsense here. I haven’t seen another iranic(persian, afghan, tadjik etc) who came here and stating feeble mindedness like you. They are satisfied about their own history instead come to a thread about afghans and spreading nonsense about azerbaijanis or a totally moronically map and informations. Sorry, but i really dont know how i could respond.

[Demhat]

What i deny, except safavids(also here i am very doubtful) is the kurdish importance.

The whole concept and idea of the Safavids dates back to a Kurdish (shafi'i) Sunni Sufi Order that started from Kurds in Diyarbakir and Northwest Iran. I am sure that is very relevant.

https://books.google.de/books?id=eACqCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=safavid+order+kurd&source=bl&ots=ozirCkdCmi&sig=ACfU3U2Kdd9lsZN3hzOPbeo8VjTxhWyPdw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjv3cXfgKLpAhVFrosKHSS7CIkQ6AEwAnoECAUQA Q#v=onepage&q=safavid%20order%20kurd&f=false

[Mejgusu]

I dont care. I respect your opinion but there are many other scholars and historians who say the safevi sect originated from a regular persian. I mean Timur claimed he was maternal of Ali descended. That doesn’t make him Arab.

[Oghuz]

Why are you so hung up by that comparison. I didn't meant it to compare Kurdish+Azeri relation to Azeri+Amazigh relation relax.

Instead of me , you should complain to the user who quoted me 5 times to contest me on the issue.


But labelling some Turkoman clans as Kurdish is wrong nonetheless.


who exactly did that ?



who does that though?

I am glad you asked. There are literal enemy intelligence operated installations disguised as academic centers in certain countries bordering us. They usually targets weak minded Iranian dissidents on internet to propagate falsified and meaningless ethno centrist agendas that suits their politics. This is not a military forum or I would have mentioned their names.


It just seems sometimes you are getting offended when the historical relevance of Turk tribes, language etc. of the region is even mentioned. Because you feel it offends your modern day nationalism, when in fact it doesn't.


Please explain to me since when accepting outsider agendas/narratives became equivalent to expressing "historical relevance of Turkic tribes" in Iran?

I would not succumb to this outside narrative that being a Turkoman of Iran, I am a culture less horse herder with no civilization before migration or that I have nothing to do with the Iranic land that I stem from. It suits other Turkic nation's narratives who had nothing good before oghuz migration but not Iranian Turks. Our history and genetics are Martial Turkoman history + Grand Iranic Aryan history (Both are continuation of each other). This makes us unique and different from other Turkic groups around us. That is same for past 500 years. Its like half oghuz history in west Asia itself.




It should be noted that a lot of historians visiting the region from 13th to 16th century mentioning the big Turkoman tribes (like Afshar etc.) who dwelled in tents around the cities had much more manpower than the local rural population, which also explains the turkish domination in terms of Aristocracy and language in this region. Of course in addition there were nomadic Kurdish tribes too. i'm not arguing about genetics here.


Rural population means nothing for a established region. One needs to count the urban centers + cultural depth of those regions. Its like Hordes of Afghan migrants are higher in numbers than Iranians in some towns of Khorasan but that does not mean local Iranian population in khorasan has vanished or has been replaced. Fahlavi speaking region was one of the most populated and well established region in Iranic empires. Sassanid Royal court spoke the same language. Later on, this region received Turkoman settlers and mixing started but genetically native part heavily dominated the migrant part which gives idea of actual numbers of both groups at that time.

Besides, by 16th century, many Turkomans were already mixed. Let alone 16th Century Iranian Turks, first Turko Iranian dynasty in the region Aq-Qovanlu Shahs used titles as "Shahanshye Iran" instead of Turkic "Khaqan" which shows that they saw themselves as continuation of Aryan empires of Iran instead of some Turkic "uymaq". Thats 700 years ago.


They dont want to understand abd they wont. Its hard to answere to that nonsense. I say, i DONT deny iranian AND caucasian influence to azerbaijanis, genetically as well culturally. To deny their turkic heritage, genetically as well culturally, is totally dementia.

I have never met a single azeri in my life who denies the turkoman ancestry of Azeris.


I dont care. I respect your opinion but there are many other scholars and historians who say the safevi sect originated from a regular persian. I mean Timur claimed he was maternal of Ali descended. That doesn’t make him Arab.

Not Persian but he was an 8th century Azeri legend called Babak Khorramdin who is regarded as hero in Iran and also in Azerbaijan. His movement later on transformed into Kizilbas, Zahediyeh and Safaviyya order according to Turkish scholars.

[Babak]

Alright guys I really think we should try to get back on topic here. There's already a copy of this discussion on several other threads and we don't need to drag it any further. The thread has already been derailed but it has to come to an end.

[Kyp]

Please explain to me since when accepting outsider agendas/narratives became equivalent to expressing "historical relevance of Turkic tribes" in Iran?

Where exactly did this thread propagate outside agendas?



Rural population means nothing for a established region. One needs to count the urban centers + cultural depth of those regions. Its like Hordes of Afghan migrants are higher in numbers than Iranians in some towns of Khorasan but that does not mean local Iranian population in khorasan has vanished or has been replaced. Fahlavi speaking region was one of the most populated and well established region in Iranic empires. Sassanid Royal court spoke the same language. Later on, this region received Turkoman settlers and mixing started but genetically native part heavily dominated the migrant part which gives idea of actual numbers of both groups at that time.

I'm not so sure of that. I don't know how populous the cities of NW Iran were at that time. Also the mixing is not necessary the result of mixing with the urban population, but mostly additionally with other martial rural/nomadic tribes of Kurdish, Lur etc. descent. We have to consider that maybe rural population was a lot more populous back in the day. Multiple travelers noted the dominant nomadic/semi-nomadic character of the region. If we go by your accounts you would have to present a model where a small group of Nomads can culturally & politically dominate a large urban population, which I don't believe is possible.



I have never met a single azeri in my life who denies the turkoman ancestry of Azeris.

Does exist too. Plus the 20th century effort from Iranian scholars (some of Azeri descent even) also plays a part.