Mtdna D4J in full Europeans

[Kamilla13]

Anyone with Autosomal Eu results and mtdna D4j???
What are your ancestry results, where are you from?

[Kaspias]

It can be found in Hungary. Probably in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, and Romania too.

[Sora]

Congrats! Your grandmother was Korean... :D

Joke aside, it may be 'cause of Hunnic, Avar, Khazar or Mongol invasion

[Kamilla13]

It can be found in Hungary. Probably in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, and Romania too.

Hungary and Romania?

Source pls, turkic tribes ?

I know about Russia, Lithuania, even Italy.

[Kamilla13]

Congrats! Your grandmother was Korean... :D

Joke aside, it may be 'cause of Hunnic, Avar, Khazar or Mongol invasion

I wish I knew her:).
It's possibly due to Turkic tribes, just sad washes away, couldn't find any trace even when testing my mum...

[Kaspias]

Hungary and Romania?

Source pls, turkic tribes ?

I know about Russia, Lithuania, even Italy.

Yes.

https://yfull.com/mtree/D4j/

Where are you from?

[Kamilla13]

Yes.

https://yfull.com/mtree/D4j/

Where are you from?

Bulgaria.
That Mtdna is listed as 1 % other for my country.

I'm slowly starting to accept the "exotic" origin of my mother line. Lol, I wish I knew how exactly it ended here.
Or, maby is more logic to think that it came with an EE woman, who herself had that distant turkic tribe mother.
Seems so old and washed away..

[Kamilla13]

I wonder how many generations can "wash away" completely a gene?

[Kaspias]

Bulgaria.
That Mtdna is listed as 1 % other for my country.

I'm slowly starting to accept the "exotic" origin of my mother line. Lol, I wish I knew how exactly it ended here.
Or, maby is more logic to think that it came with an EE woman, who herself had that distant turkic tribe mother.
Seems so old and washed away..

That's cool. D4j appears in former Hunnic regions and occasionally defined as Altaic. I wonder the source which you got it. There are a lot of explanations considering the geography and history of Bulgaria. May I ask which city is your grandmother from?




I wonder how many generations can "wash away" completely a gene?

If EE carrier has political control on the region, it may last around 400 years to completely washed away their genes. If EE carrier is a minority, it would last around 200 years. If you tested autosomally, can you post your Gedmatch(Eurogenes K13, Dodecad K12b) results?

[Kamilla13]

That's cool. D4j appears in former Hunnic regions and occasionally defined as Altaic. I wonder the source which you got it. There are a lot of explanations considering the geography and history of Bulgaria. May I ask which city is your grandmother from?





If EE carrier has political control on the region, it may last around 400 years to completely washed away their genes. If EE carrier is a minority, it would last around 200 years. If you tested autosomally, can you post your Gedmatch(Eurogenes K13, Dodecad K12b) results?

Yes, in the Haskovo/ Dimitrovgrad region.

98190

98191

[Kaspias]

Yes, in the Haskovo/ Dimitrovgrad region.

98190

98191

Bulgarians are settled Dimitovgrad after the 1930s from various regions(Most comes from out of today's Bulgarian borders) and city totally rebuilt by Dimitrov after 1945 and a bunch of population moved from various places to the Dimitrovgrad.

1- If she is sure that she is native to the region, I would suspect from a Bulgarian Turk mix.
2- There is something is weird in your result, it is not that typical a Bulgarian score 27% North Atlantic but only 21% Baltic in Eurogenes K13. It can occur and not impossible to see, but I can recommend you to search for a migration either from today's Romania or Macedonia region. (I realized your kit is 23andMe, so there is low SNP amount, such a result might be occurred because of the misreading of SNPs)
3- About source of D4j, if we are going to eliminate first option I mentioned, there are three possibilities:

Ottoman rooted Tatar/Turk assimilated among Bulgarian community.
Proto-Bulgars
Cumans/Pecheneks



It is really hard to tell which one is the closest option. Ottoman Turks are dates closer than the others so there is more chance to inherit the gene from them. Yet you mentioned D4j found in Italy, and I'm sure you know that Alzec, son of Kubrat went to Italy with the community belong him. In this sense Proto-Bulgars should come to mind as a 2nd option.

These are your runs:

Eurogenes K13

Distance to: Kamilla
3.99383275 Bulgarian_Southwest
6.09815546 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
7.06437541 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
7.18233945 Bulgarian_Central
7.27357417 North_Macedonian
7.98163517 Macedonian_East
8.01812803 Macedonian
8.23042526 Bulgarian_Serres
8.29841551 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
8.37676549 Romanian_Muntenia
8.38084125 Romanian_Wallachia_average
8.46271824 Macedonian_Northwest
8.51736462 Bulgarian
8.65492345 Greek_Central-Macedonia
8.72998282 Turk_Razgrad
8.79950567 Romanian_Transylvania
8.80734920 Bulgarian_Gabrovo
8.83550791 Bulgarian_Stara-Zagora
8.92024103 Greek_Western-Macedonia
8.96391655 Bulgarian_Pleven
9.17850750 Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
9.22523170 Pomak_Plovdiv
9.28033405 Moldova_South
9.43174427 Turk_Alexandroupoli
9.45820808 Pomak_Nevrokopi


Dodecad K12b

Distance to: Kamilla
2.20031816 Pomak
3.98659002 Gagauz
4.29823219 Macedonian
5.90259265 Romanians
6.21454745 Bulgarian
6.34539991 Turk_Romania
6.65469008 Turk_Bulgaria
7.94805637 Bulgarians
8.11608280 Turk_Greece
8.37031063 Albanian_North
8.85075138 Turk_Macedonia
8.92453920 Albanian_Kosovo
11.85284354 Bosnian
12.13242663 Italy_FriuliVG
13.28114076 Croat
14.60539152 Italy_Veneto
15.88633073 Italy_Lazio
16.03384889 Italy_Piedmont
16.14475828 Italy_Trentino
16.27313123 Italy_Romagna
17.10873783 Italy_Tuscany
17.11712859 Italy_Emilia
17.13444111 Italy_Liguria
17.41258632 Swiss_Italian
17.42904237 Italy_Marche


Also, I was able to find some traces of Asian ancestry among your results. Check the oracles:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.5% Albanian + 17.5% Finnish @ 1.63
2 89.4% Macedonian + 10.6% Chuvash @ 1.67
3 75.5% Albanian + 24.5% Mordovian @ 1.7
4 76.9% Albanian + 23.1% Russian @ 1.74
5 63.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 36.3% Mordovian @ 1.81
6 87.1% Macedonian + 12.9% Tatar @ 1.89
7 65.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 34.5% Russian @ 1.94
8 81.3% Greek_Thessaly + 18.7% Finnish @ 1.95
9 73.9% Greek_Thessaly + 26.1% Mordovian @ 2
10 90.3% Bulgarian + 9.7% Chuvash @ 2.01
11 90.7% Macedonian + 9.3% Aluet @ 2.04
12 75.4% Greek_Thessaly + 24.6% Russian @ 2.06
13 65.4% Belgian + 34.6% Turkish @ 2.09
14 91.3% Bulgarian + 8.7% Aluet @ 2.12
15 61.6% Moldavian + 38.4% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.17
16 67.8% Belgian + 32.2% Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.17
17 52.4% Albanian + 47.6% Moldavian @ 2.18
18 96.6% Montenegrin + 3.4% Chukchi @ 2.25
19 96.6% Montenegrin + 3.4% Koryak @ 2.27
20 83.9% Kosovar + 16.1% Finnish @ 2.28


After seeing this, I wanted to check your matches and saw some Balkan Turks and one close Szekel. If it helps. Is "VD" your mother, by the way?


I can send you a tutorial on how to convert 23andme data to a legit gedmatch format if you want. Also checking the regions you got in 23andMe might give a clue.

[Leto]

Yes, in the Haskovo/ Dimitrovgrad region.



23andme

Population
Gedrosia 6.03 Pct
Siberian 0.54 Pct
Northwest_African 1.59 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 24.10 Pct
North_European 33.09 Pct
South_Asian 1.37 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 8.01 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 25.27 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
23andme

Population
North_Atlantic 27.33 Pct
Baltic 21.40 Pct
West_Med 13.61 Pct
West_Asian 9.30 Pct
East_Med 22.47 Pct
Red_Sea 2.98 Pct
South_Asian 1.42 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.54 Pct
Amerindian 0.33 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.62 Pct


AncestryDNA

Population
Gedrosia 7.32 Pct
Siberian 0.55 Pct
Northwest_African 1.32 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 23.97 Pct
North_European 31.81 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 8.16 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 26.87 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
AncestryDNA

Population
North_Atlantic 24.26 Pct
Baltic 21.29 Pct
West_Med 14.61 Pct
West_Asian 11.95 Pct
East_Med 22.64 Pct
Red_Sea 3.73 Pct
South_Asian 0.53 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.34 Pct
Amerindian 0.55 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.11 Pct



Your East Eurasian/Mongoloid input is practically non-existent.

[Kamilla13]

Bulgarians are settled Dimitovgrad after the 1930s from various regions(Most comes from out of today's Bulgarian borders) and city totally rebuilt by Dimitrov after 1945 and a bunch of population moved from various places to the Dimitrovgrad.

1- If she is sure that she is native to the region, I would suspect from a Bulgarian Turk mix.
2- There is something is weird in your result, it is not that typical a Bulgarian score 27% North Atlantic but only 21% Baltic in Eurogenes K13. It can occur and not impossible to see, but I can recommend you to search for a migration either from today's Romania or Macedonia region. (I realized your kit is 23andMe, so there is low SNP amount, such a result might be occurred because of the misreading of SNPs)
3- About source of D4j, if we are going to eliminate first option I mentioned, there are three possibilities:

Ottoman rooted Tatar/Turk assimilated among Bulgarian community.
Proto-Bulgars
Cumans/Pecheneks



It is really hard to tell which one is the closest option. Ottoman Turks are dates closer than the others so there is more chance to inherit the gene from them. Yet you mentioned D4j found in Italy, and I'm sure you know that Alzec, son of Kubrat went to Italy with the community belong him. In this sense Proto-Bulgars should come to mind as a 2nd option.

These are your runs:

Eurogenes K13

Distance to: Kamilla
3.99383275 Bulgarian_Southwest
6.09815546 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
7.06437541 Bulgarian_Plovdiv
7.18233945 Bulgarian_Central
7.27357417 North_Macedonian
7.98163517 Macedonian_East
8.01812803 Macedonian
8.23042526 Bulgarian_Serres
8.29841551 Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander
8.37676549 Romanian_Muntenia
8.38084125 Romanian_Wallachia_average
8.46271824 Macedonian_Northwest
8.51736462 Bulgarian
8.65492345 Greek_Central-Macedonia
8.72998282 Turk_Razgrad
8.79950567 Romanian_Transylvania
8.80734920 Bulgarian_Gabrovo
8.83550791 Bulgarian_Stara-Zagora
8.92024103 Greek_Western-Macedonia
8.96391655 Bulgarian_Pleven
9.17850750 Bulgarian_North-Rhodope
9.22523170 Pomak_Plovdiv
9.28033405 Moldova_South
9.43174427 Turk_Alexandroupoli
9.45820808 Pomak_Nevrokopi


Dodecad K12b

Distance to: Kamilla
2.20031816 Pomak
3.98659002 Gagauz
4.29823219 Macedonian
5.90259265 Romanians
6.21454745 Bulgarian
6.34539991 Turk_Romania
6.65469008 Turk_Bulgaria
7.94805637 Bulgarians
8.11608280 Turk_Greece
8.37031063 Albanian_North
8.85075138 Turk_Macedonia
8.92453920 Albanian_Kosovo
11.85284354 Bosnian
12.13242663 Italy_FriuliVG
13.28114076 Croat
14.60539152 Italy_Veneto
15.88633073 Italy_Lazio
16.03384889 Italy_Piedmont
16.14475828 Italy_Trentino
16.27313123 Italy_Romagna
17.10873783 Italy_Tuscany
17.11712859 Italy_Emilia
17.13444111 Italy_Liguria
17.41258632 Swiss_Italian
17.42904237 Italy_Marche


Also, I was able to find some traces of Asian ancestry among your results. Check the oracles:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.5% Albanian + 17.5% Finnish @ 1.63
2 89.4% Macedonian + 10.6% Chuvash @ 1.67
3 75.5% Albanian + 24.5% Mordovian @ 1.7
4 76.9% Albanian + 23.1% Russian @ 1.74
5 63.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 36.3% Mordovian @ 1.81
6 87.1% Macedonian + 12.9% Tatar @ 1.89
7 65.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 34.5% Russian @ 1.94
8 81.3% Greek_Thessaly + 18.7% Finnish @ 1.95
9 73.9% Greek_Thessaly + 26.1% Mordovian @ 2
10 90.3% Bulgarian + 9.7% Chuvash @ 2.01
11 90.7% Macedonian + 9.3% Aluet @ 2.04
12 75.4% Greek_Thessaly + 24.6% Russian @ 2.06
13 65.4% Belgian + 34.6% Turkish @ 2.09
14 91.3% Bulgarian + 8.7% Aluet @ 2.12
15 61.6% Moldavian + 38.4% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.17
16 67.8% Belgian + 32.2% Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.17
17 52.4% Albanian + 47.6% Moldavian @ 2.18
18 96.6% Montenegrin + 3.4% Chukchi @ 2.25
19 96.6% Montenegrin + 3.4% Koryak @ 2.27
20 83.9% Kosovar + 16.1% Finnish @ 2.28


After seeing this, I wanted to check your matches and saw some Balkan Turks and one close Szekel. If it helps. Is "VD" your mother, by the way?


I can send you a tutorial on how to convert 23andme data to a legit gedmatch format if you want. Also checking the regions you got in 23andMe might give a clue.

Wow, thank you so much.

Love it, especially the Koryak and Chukchi thing. :).

I'm thinking the proto-Bulgarian hypothesis to be honest.

And I know about the Kubrat son, but wasn't sure whether it was just a legend or no.
My mum's results a more "italian" than mine, which gives a hint in that direction.

Yet, I'm very confused by the way my great grandmother
looked- tiny, dark blonde and with the bluest eyes you could ever see, so I'm suddenly not thinking proto-Bulgarian, as I imagine them Eurasian looking.

So confusing, lol, thanks God my Y haplogroup is very expected ouch!

What do you mean ab the North Atlantid/ Baltic ratio as being not typical?
Should it be more Baltic normally?

I got the Ancestry results as well:

98197

And yes, VD is my mum.

[Kaspias]

.


I got the Ancestry results as well:


I checked. You are a regular Bulgarian here. You can forget what I said about the migration outside of Bulgaria it was apparently about missing SNPs.

What do you mean ab the North Atlantid/ Baltic ratio as being not typical?
Should it be more Baltic normally?

Average of Bulgarians usually around 20 NA and 24 Baltic. Eastern part of the country usually scores like 21-21 or 22-22. Western part usually scores a high amount of Baltic, like 27-28 and around 20 NA. Around the Central(Balkan Mountains) part there is a NA dominance. Also it is common among Macedonia migrators.

But you may forget about it too because you get 24 NA in Ancestry data, it is not that atypical and can occur randomly. 27 was a bit high.






So confusing, lol, thanks God my Y haplogroup is very expected ouch!


E-V13? :D



Yet, I'm very confused by the way my great grandmother
looked- tiny, dark blonde and with the bluest eyes you could ever see, so I'm suddenly not thinking proto-Bulgarian, as I imagine them Eurasian looking.

That's irrelevant. Phenotype and genotype not necessarily equal. Actually most of the time they are not in same parallel. I have almost 10% East Eurasian yet I don't look Turkic.


And I know about the Kubrat son, but wasn't sure whether it was just a legend or no.
My mum's results a more "italian" than mine, which gives a hint in that direction.


It is not a legend. I remember that I read an article that examines the population of the region Alzec settled. Authors were able to find some traces that set them apart from the Italians.



And yes, VD is my mum.


She has almost 4% EE here! It was 2% in you.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 33.81
2 SW_Europe 32.93
3 West_Asia 18.24
4 SW_Asia 9.95
5 Siberia 2.5
6 South_Africa 0.91
7 NE_Asia 0.9
8 Americas 0.34
9 South_Asia 0.27
10 SE_Asia 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 4.09
2 Bulgarian 4.52
3 Montenegrin 4.6
4 Macedonian 4.75
5 Serbian 6.4
6 Kosovar 7.96
7 Albanian 8.58
8 Greek_Thessaly 9.3
9 Bosnian 9.37
10 Italian_Tuscan 10.07
11 Moldavian 10.95
12 Croatian 11.5
13 Italian_Bergamo 12.22
14 Greek_Central 13.58
15 Hungarian 13.93
16 Slovene 14.27
17 French 14.32
18 Italian_Abruzzo 14.88
19 German_South 15.12
20 Slovak 15.7

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.1% Italian_Abruzzo + 34.9% Mordovian @ 1.71
2 58.5% Italian_Sicilian + 41.5% Mordovian @ 2.21
3 83.5% Albanian + 16.5% Finnish @ 2.23
4 60.8% Belgian + 39.2% Turkish_Aydin @ 2.24
5 67% Italian_Abruzzo + 33% Russian @ 2.3
6 82.3% Greek_Thessaly + 17.7% Finnish @ 2.3
7 60.2% Ashkenazy_Jew + 39.8% Mordovian @ 2.32
8 60.3% Italian_Sicilian + 39.7% Russian @ 2.38
9 94.5% Montenegrin + 5.5% Tuvinian @ 2.41
10 95.5% Montenegrin + 4.5% Yakut @ 2.41
11 77% Albanian + 23% Mordovian @ 2.41
12 93.8% Montenegrin + 6.2% Altaian @ 2.48
13 62% Ashkenazy_Jew + 38% Russian @ 2.5
14 75.5% Greek_Thessaly + 24.5% Mordovian @ 2.5
15 94.4% Montenegrin + 5.6% Mongolian @ 2.51
16 95.5% Montenegrin + 4.5% Chukchi @ 2.52
17 93.8% Macedonian + 6.2% Selkup @ 2.55
18 95.2% Montenegrin + 4.8% Oroqen @ 2.56
19 95.5% Montenegrin + 4.5% Koryak @ 2.57
20 85.1% Macedonian + 14.9% Tatar @ 2.57


You may try to convert her 23andme data to ftdna data which will provide a better read for Gedmatch. This is the tutorial: https://dnagenics.com/convert-23andme-to-myheritage-and-gedmatch-classic/

[Kamilla13]

E- V13...you are a genius @Kaspias :) ***^^^

[Figaro]

Considering your ancestry, probably an “Asian Invasion” kind of deal...

[Kamilla13]

Trace matches were found in the following populations:
Trace
Ethnicity
Turkish Albanian Macedonian Adyghe Polish Gorani Gagauz Sorb
Percentage
(%)
0.86 0.86 0.9 0.37 0.31 0.99 0.47 0.21
Trace amounts which were smaller than 1% were negated since these generally have a high
degree of inaccuracy. Trace matches represent low confidence ethnic estimates which are
generated during our ethnic determination process. These values are very speculative and
hence are not added into the main ethnic percentage estimates. In upcoming pages, we detail
your ​overall regional estimates​ and also your ​specific ethnic estimates.

Gave me this trace amounts as well.

What I find interesting is that it looks like I inherited more from my mum.
The cities in Bg we have on 23 and me match more than the once my father score.

He leans heavily towards Southern Bulgaria, Greece, Greek islands, which explains the Anatolian and WA 9% in him maby.

But we don't have Kurdjali , noone of us.
Maby Razgrad...Hm

[Kamilla13]

Oh , I just checked. Only I got Razgrad on 23nme , my parents don't.
Very helpful lol.

I just think that this Mtdna of mine is hell of an ancient and there is not much I could know for sure to possibly trace it.

I read that it was found in Thracian tombs few individuals with D4j around Stara Zagora- I'm born there.

So , maby that is a clue, but sounds soooooo old, also I cannot find this article for now, It was random discovery on the Internet :)