Iranic E1b1b

[Halgurd]

BMAC E1b1b1 (4011-3886 ybp)
Scythian E-CTS1273 (E-V13) (4885-4632 ybp; unreliable)
Saka (Scythian) E-Y31991 (2555 ybp)
Eastern Scythian E-M84 (2400 ybp)

The BMAC one is very interesting. They are supposedly the forefathers of all Iranic populations (alongside Andronovo), and it shows that E1b1b was long established in Iranic people. It should be noted that E1b1b has always been a minority in Iranic people, but it’s clear that it’s not a foreign element.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=46.852835185847184%2C68.28752265183618&z=4

E-V13 levels in Iran:
Yazd Zoroastrians 5.9%
Persians and Kurds 5%
Azeris 1.6%
Armenians 0.5-1%

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399854/

Haplogroup E in Iran is mainly represented by the E1-M123 (3.7%) and E1b-M78 (3.0%) branches. The first is almost entirely characterized by its sub-lineage M34 and reaches its highest incidence (13.6%) in Kurdistan. The second is present as E1b-M78* in Lorestan (9.8%) and E1b-V13 (5.9%) and E1b-V22 (2.9%) in the Zoroastrians of Yazd. It is worth noting the presence of individuals carrying African-specific haplogroups (three belonging to E2-M75 and 17 to E1b-M2) in South-East Iran (Hormozgan and Sistan Baluchestan), whereas the North-East African E1b-M81 is not observed.

[Dr_Maul]

I think it will be a mystery for a while

[Daos777]

Nice thread, following.


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[Hapanuwa]

How did e1b1b reach Persians and Kurds all the way from the Balkans?

[Halgurd]

How did e1b1b reach Persians and Kurds all the way from the Balkans?

Only E-V13 is shared between Balkans and Iranics. A Kurd who did his big Y tested for E-CTS1273*, negative for all subclades. It means that Iranic E-V13 is probably unrelated to the Balkans.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

[Halgurd]

I think it will be a mystery for a while

Yep more testing needs to be done to get a clearer picture.

[Hapanuwa]

Only E-V13 is shared between Balkans and Iranics. A Kurd who did his big Y tested for E-CTS1273*, negative for all subclades. It means that Iranic E-V13 is probably unrelated to the Balkans.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

Very interesting. I'm also E-V13 and I wonder whether that came from the Balkans or from the Middle East (or Iranics).

[Halgurd]

Very interesting. I'm also E-V13 and I wonder whether that came from the Balkans or from the Middle East (or Iranics).

The only other people in the Middle East with high levels of E-V13 are the Druze, and many of them have Kurdish origins. They have a few powerful families that are of Kurdish origin (such as Janpolad/Jumblatt).

Turkish Cypriots apparently have high E-V13 as well but the only way to know where yours come from would be further testing I guess.

[Nassbean]

maybe through levantine contacts ?

I know that E1b1b haplotypes were also common in Natufians (11,000 BCE) and pre-pottery Neolithic male individuals from the Levant (7,000 BCE)

[Kamal900]

maybe through levantine contacts ?

I know that E1b1b haplotypes were also common in Natufians (11,000 BCE) and pre-pottery Neolithic male individuals from the Levant (7,000 BCE)

Very likely since there had been some Levantine migrations to places like Iran during this time period and so on.

[Halgurd]

maybe through levantine contacts ?

I know that E1b1b haplotypes were also common in Natufians (11,000 BCE) and pre-pottery Neolithic male individuals from the Levant (7,000 BCE)

Possibly as Natufians were mainly E-M123. But it wouldn’t explain the prevalence of E-V13.

[Nassbean]

Possibly as Natufians were mainly E-M123. But it wouldn’t explain the prevalence of E-V13.

actually take a look at this :

Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression.

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/6/1300/984002#77759358

[Halgurd]

actually take a look at this :
https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/6/1300/984002#77759358

I think it must be something like that. Some E-V13 men must have stayed local, or migrated east, only to become assimilated (or rather contribute) largely into Iranic populations, whereas others migrated further west to Europe.

[Demhat]

The E-V13 variant seems to have evolved somewhere in Kurdistan that's what scientists assume. The Iranic speakers likely carried little of it too. But overall it is local to the region. But who cares anyways it is a less extreme example of J2. I mean We have found so much J2 among ancient Iranic speakers from the Steppes that you can not trace if it was carried by the Proto Iranic speakers into West Asia or if it was part of the locals with whom they merged and created very much what we know as the West Iranic people.

So it shouldn't be so important I think. I remember times when some people would argue R1a Aryan anything else fake :D
I was literally one of the handfull of people who would run around and try to cry out some logic into these peoples heads. By trying to explain "If you argue Haplogroups like R1b, R2, J, T, L and G are local in West Iranics fine, but how can you explain the huge frequency of this kind of Haplogroups in Central Asian Iranics and even Turkics too".

Than came the first Eurasian Steppe and Caucasus Iranic samples with J2, G and R1b Haplogroups and every one of them was like

surprised face
https://en.meming.world/images/en/thumb/2/2c/Surprised_Pikachu_HD.jpg/300px-Surprised_Pikachu_HD.jpg



Even to this day some people have hard time to understand that Indo_Iranic subgroups do not equal Proto_Indo_Iranic let alone proto Steppe Indo European. The expansion of Indo Europeans was not a sprint, it was more like a relay race.

[Brutus]

maybe through levantine contacts ?

I know that E1b1b haplotypes were also common in Natufians (11,000 BCE) and pre-pottery Neolithic male individuals from the Levant (7,000 BCE)

Natufians were mainly E-Z830* (From the current samples we have from a single site) and PPN males were a mix of E-Z830, T-M70 and H-P96 (H2). So there is not E-M78, E-M78 was likely still in Egypt, at the time the Natufians flourished, and diversified from there before Egypt was hit by desertification.

[TheMaestro]

4 percent highest peak? Thats very low.

[Daos777]

actually take a look at this :


https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/6/1300/984002#77759358

That doesn't make sense considering this.

"Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in north-eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*). These Y-DNA clades 24,000[11] years BP had a common ancestor with the Berbers and the E1b1b1b (M123) subhaplogroup that has been observed in skeletal remains belonging to the Epipaleolithic Natufian and Pre-Pottery Neolithic cultures of the Levant."

E-M78 was present in North Africa roughly 14,000 years ago. So how did E-V13 ancestor originate 11k years ago in Levant and THEN move to North Africa when physical remains disprove this? Iberomaurusians are the only people where the direct parent clade to E-V13 was found and Natufians had 0 of E-M78 so other E subclades can be explained by Natufians but not E-V13.

Also that study is from 2007. In the world of genetics thats really outdated.

[Halgurd]

4 percent highest peak? Thats very low.

I reckon it should reach levels of 20%/30% minimum amongst my tribe considering everyone in my clan is basically descended from the same guy.

[TheMaestro]

I reckon it should reach levels of 20%/30% minimum amongst my tribe considering everyone in my clan is basically descended from the same guy.

Well lets not talk about tribes, those are not even big numbers, its like saying look at this city it has R1b, as a whole 4 percent is really really low, who knows how it got there, certainly not E-V13 country.

[Kyp]

Why Kurds have so much E? What's the logical explanation?

[Halgurd]

Well lets not talk about tribes, those are not even big numbers, its like saying look at this city it has R1b, as a whole 4 percent is really really low, who knows how it got there, certainly not E-V13 country.

Yes as I mentioned E in general has always been a minority in Iranic population. E-V13 may be low in terms of % but the presence of it, compared to our neighbours where there is literally 0 presence, is important in determining E-V13 migrations.
The evidence we have so far suggests that E-V13 in Kurds and Iranians seems to form its own clade E-CTS1273.

[Daos777]

Yes as I mentioned E in general has always been a minority in Iranic population. E-V13 may be low in terms of % but the presence of it, compared to our neighbours where there is literally 0 presence, is important in determining E-V13 migrations.
The evidence we have so far suggests that E-V13 in Kurds and Iranians seems to form its own clade E-CTS1273.

Is Kurd E-V13 subclade closely related to Ossetian E-V13?


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[Daos777]

Is Kurd E-V13 subclade closely related to Ossetian E-V13?


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It is. It’s the same one.


Ossetian is also E-CTS1273.


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[Halgurd]

Why Kurds have so much E? What's the logical explanation?

More testing needs to be done to determine that. Kurds seem to have high E-M34, which probably comes from pre Iranic populations. But we don't know what pre Iranic populations looked like yet so we can't say for sure.

[Halgurd]

It is. It’s the same one.


Ossetian is also E-CTS1273.


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I think we're gonna be surprised in the coming years about Ossetian - Kurdish genetic relationship. Alans were known to have frequented Kurdistan many times to launch raids in the Near East. E-CTS1273 was also found in a Scythian sample. Again we see patterns of a minority E-V13 presence in Iranic speaking populations.

I always used to dismiss Kurdish-Scythian link but recently I've been starting to think that it's very possible.

[Halgurd]

stay tuned i will find my clade soon

[Daos777]

I think we're gonna be surprised in the coming years about Ossetian - Kurdish genetic relationship. Alans were known to have frequented Kurdistan many times to launch raids in the Near East. E-CTS1273 was also found in a Scythian sample. Again we see patterns of a minority E-V13 presence in Iranic speaking populations.

I always used to dismiss Kurdish-Scythian link but recently I've been starting to think that it's very possible.

I wonder what subclade that Scythian from Glinoe, Moldova was.


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[TheMaestro]

I wonder what subclade that Scythian from Glinoe, Moldova was.


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How can I found out like other members where my halogroup is most found? On morley its the basic 1273 thats all.

[Dr_Maul]

How can I found out like other members where my halogroup is most found? On morley its the basic 1273 thats all.

There are online haplogroup trees where you can see the locations of people who also got it, like YFull

[Daos777]

How can I found out like other members where my halogroup is most found? On morley its the basic 1273 thats all.

You need to get a subclade test there is one on Y-Seq

I was going to get it but forgot about it and bought ancestry instead lol.

[TheMaestro]

You need to get a subclade test there is one on Y-Seq

I was going to get it but forgot about it and bought ancestry instead lol.

Whats the price.

[Daos777]

Whats the price.

$88


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[TheMaestro]

$88


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v

lol fuck that rather I buy sneakers.

[Dr_Maul]

Whats the price.

You can also get it tested on YFull 35$ for Y DNA and 25$ for MTDNA

[Halgurd]

The only other people in the Middle East with high levels of E-V13 are the Druze, and many of them have Kurdish origins. They have a few powerful families that are of Kurdish origin (such as Janpolad/Jumblatt).

Turkish Cypriots apparently have high E-V13 as well but the only way to know where yours come from would be further testing I guess.

So as I suspected the reason why Druze have such high E-V13 is because many of their families have Kurdish origins. I found out that a member from the Janpolad/Jumblatt family has E-V13. Z40644 also falls under E-CTS1273.

http://corduene.blogspot.com/2016/03/kurdish-tribes-y-dna-haplogroups.html
Joumblatt (Canbolad) - E1b1b1-M35>M78>V13>Z40644

Looks like E-CTS1273 clade of E-V13 is a Kurdish lineage.

[ScotEV13]

E-V13 in the United Kingdom and Ireland is explained by the Roman military recruiting Dacians into service and transporting them to the countries. I am E-CTS1273 and also Scottish. Meaning there could be Iranic E-V13 that made it to the Balkans.

[Slavicaliphate]

E-V13 in the United Kingdom and Ireland is explained by the Roman military recruiting Dacians into service and transporting them to the countries. I am E-CTS1273 and also Scottish. Meaning there could be Iranic E-V13 that made it to the Balkans.

Those E-V13 subclades predate any Roman military conquest of Britain. These lineages probably spread to Britain with the Pre-Celts, they picked it up in Pannonia/Carpathians from the Eastern Gáva-Holigrady culture.

[Coastal Elite]

v

lol fuck that rather I buy sneakers.

True E-V13s buy fresh sneakers over paying their electric bill. You ain't ever gonna catch an E-V13 brotha with hand-me-down, busted ass sneakers like some gentile.