Iranian Turks (a racial, characteristic & cultural description)

[Kyp]

The Persian or Iranian Turks



"The Iranian Turks in the widest sense include those of Transcaucasia, who have, however, been grouped above as IV b, 4(p.200) because of their political position as inhabitants of Russian territory. Those of them that live in Persia proper are distributed in the following regions:
1. Azarbaijan, from the Araxed southward along the frontier of Kurdistan past Urmia towards Kirmanshah. Here the Turks are most numerously represented, being pontiguous to their kinsmen in Transcaucasia, from whom they are politcally seperated. They thus form the chief seat of the Turkish element in Persia.
2. Khamseh, the district between Azarbaijan and Tehran, especially in the neighbourhood of Zinjan.
3. The district of Tehran, in the immediate neighbourhood of the capital and in the valleys of Damavand
4. Kirman: in the district bordering on Fars
5. Irak: in the neighbourhood of Hamadan
6. Fars: where they wander between the borders of Isfahan and the sea coast
7. Khorasan: where they are most numerous around Nishapour and Kuchan
Race: Racially and linguistically the Turks of Persia differ little from one another. They are descended from the Turks who under Seljuk came from the north of the sea of Aral. That they are close akin to the Turkmens is shown by the fact that several of their tribes, such as the Khoja-ali and Begdilli in Karabagh, the Kara in Kirman, the Bayat around Nishapour, as well as the Kenger in Transcaucasia, are identical in name with corresponding tribes among the Turkmens of Russian Turkestan. Other tribes are known to be of Turkmen origin, though their names have disappeared from among Turkmens proper. Such are the Avshars, a very numerous tribe, near Urmia, who have become Shiites. Another such tribe are the Kajars, who formerly lived in the steppe bordering on Astarabad and are now scattered about in Persia; from them comes the present dynasty of Persia. Again, the Kashkai in Fars are known to have migrated to the south of Persia during the rule of the Il-Khans. Thus the Turks of Persia ethnically form a connecting link between the Turkmens proper and the Osmans.
Each of the tribes has its own chieftain, who is appointed by the Shah. In former centuries the clans seem to have lived in compact masses, and to have been confined in particular localities; but at the present day neither is the case. Only the large and powerful tribes attach importance to their descent; while the small fragments are very much in the dark as to their origin. Tribes once forming numerous units are scattered across the wide extending from the Paromisus to the Kurdistan mountains and from the Caucasus to the Persian Gulf. Thus members of one and the same tribe may now be found in the Caucasus, in Khorasan, in Hamadan and in Kirman.
The only exceptions are the following four tribes, which are less dispersed and partly occupy their old habitat.
1. The Kajars
2. The Shasevens
3. The Kashkais and Allahverdis
4. Karakoyunlus


Racial Characteristics:

The Turks of Persia have been mixed with various Aryan peoples – Caucasians, Kurds, Armenians, Iranians – as the result of the importation of male and female slaves, which went on for centuries. A distinctively Turkish type can therefore not be looked for among them; but a marked mixed type, the basis of which has left genuine Turkish physical traces, is noticeable as soon as Azarbaijanis are side by side with the relatively pure Persians of Shiraz. According to a close observer, the Iranian Turks compared with the Persians have a less oval skull, a broader and less expressive face, less arched brows, thicker eyelids, a shorter and broader nose, wider cheek-bones and chin, more fleshy lips, a taller and more massive and muscular figure. The description of the Turks of Transcaucasia given by another authority is similar. Vambery, who agrees with these account, adds that along the whole northern frontier of Persia the Turks in Azarbaijan and in Khorasan show far more traces of the national type than, for instances, the Kashkais in the south.
It is natural that a considerable change in customs must have been undergone by a people who, seperated for more than eight centuries from the bulk of their kindred, have so long lived in the midst of old Persian culture, and been strongly influenced by the religious bias of the Shiite sect. Hence the Iranian Turk appears polite and refined compared with his congeners in the north-east and the west. But his native Turkish awkwardness and frankness is still apparent when he is contrasted with the Southern Persian. This difference is still observable among the townsmen of Tebriz, Tehran and Hamadan in spite of the immediate influence of these centres of Persian culture, while the population of the country districts shows still more evident traces of the Turkish national character, some of their customs being clearly reminiscent of those still prevailing among the Turkmens of the steppe.
This similarity extends to various usages of family life, such as certain benedictions, which are almost identical, birth and wedding ceremonies, and particularly the laws of hospitality, which the Iranian Turk observes much more conscientiously than the Persian. The word of the Turk, too, is much more depended on than that of the Iranian. He is also decidedly superior in manly qualities. To these he owes his dominant position for centuries in Persia, where he represents the really warlike element, for the army of the Shah consists predominantly of Turks."

To be continued…

(excuse possible typos. I typed it off from a digital slide of a book.)

[Kamal900]

Cool, but I wouldn't say that Caucasians and Armenians as "Aryans" since they're not ethnically Aryan or Indo-Iranian like Kurds and Persians. Caucasians don't speak a native Indo-European language while the Armenian language is in it's own branch of the Indo-European language family.

[Mejgusu]

When i read Begdili i was proud XD....

I dont know why many dislike iranian turks. They are known as defenders of iranian state and culture (shahseven= lover of shahs). Many think Turks came and destroyed many things, although many famous buildings were made by turkish rule. Denying presence of Turks in iran is denying iranian, like if a turk denies the highly iranian influenced turkish an turkic culture. When i would travell to iran or tadjikidtan, many thinks woulb be known and instead of some differences those places wouldnt be foreign. But even 300-500km towards east in turkey from hometown of my parents for me would be a different world for me.
Basically anatolian turks are iranian turks too, culturally instead of some differences we dont differ from iranian turks.

[Kyp]

When i read Begdili i was proud XD....

I dont know why many dislike iranian turks. They are known as defenders of iranian state and culture (shahseven= lover of shahs). Many think Turks came and destroyed many things, although many famous buildings were made by turkish rule. Denying presence of Turks in iran is denying iranian, like if a turk denies the highly iranian influenced turkish an turkic culture. When i would travell to iran or tadjikidtan, many thinks woulb be known and instead of some differences those places wouldnt be foreign. But even 300-500km towards east in turkey from hometown of my parents for me would be a different world for me.
Basically anatolian turks are iranian turks too, culturally instead of some differences we dont differ from iranian turks.

agree my friend just look at this note from an Italian traveler during the Safavid era in Iran:


The Turkish language is spoken mostly then Persian language in Iran. Especially in the palace and beween the exwcutives. This doesnt shows that the Iranians give more value to this language. Rather it shows that most of the milittaries root or origin is Turkish qızılbash origined. The Shahs men that are from different nations spoke this language and didn’t know Persian language.Therefore, not only the superiors concerning the army but also the Shah also used this language to communicate with them and inform them his requests…

[Mejgusu]

agree my friend just look at this note from an Italian traveler during the Safavid era in Iran:

Also babürs, a turkic dynasty, highly irano-indo influenced, spoke inside royal family and military „turki“.

[Kyp]

Iranian Turkic Groups:

a) Khorasan Turks: Afshar, Celayir, Chaghtay, Ecirlid, Geraylid, Karagozlu, Ghazakh, Kengerid, Timurtash and Ustachlu tribbles
b) Turkmens: Northeastern Iran
c) Ghashghay Turks:Southern Iran
d) Afshar (Avshar) Turks: Urmia, Zanjan (Khamseh), Kuh-Giluye Afshars, Imamli Afshars, Aplu, Usalu/Osanlu, Eberlu etc.
e) Khalaj Turks: The oldest Turkic group in Iran: South & Central Iran
f) Qajar Turks: last Turkic rulers of Iran, Northwest Iran, Mazandaran
g) Gharapapagh Turks: Northwest Iran
h) Ebi Verdi Turks: Shiraz
I) Kenger Turks: Around Teheran
j) The Other Turkish Populations: Baharlu, Ghipchaghs, Eynallullu, Shahsevenler, Gharadaghlids, Bayaties, Kengelies, Karachorlu, Bochaghchies and Karayies



Source: https://www.academia.edu/5930762/TURKISH_COMMUNITIES_Iran_Turkishness_and_Iran_Turk s_is_a_subject_that_takes_place_apon_the_subjects_ that_was_never_studied_up_untill_these_days._W._Ba rthold_gave_some_information_s_Altho_in_a_scattere d_way_concerni


Following clusters:

1. Northwest Turks (Azerbaijanis)
2. Northeastern Turks Khorasan Turks & Turkmens
3. South & Center Turks (Ghasghay, Khamseh, Isfahanian Turks..)


https://external-preview.redd.it/ma9DFrl5ufYa0b_gQD1B_502FLu1JDFgZUNI4K2uyBg.png?au to=webp&f1bcb435

[Mejgusu]

Dont forget the turkmens of Iran(İran Türkmenleri).

There are 3 theories about the term Turkmen:

1. from persian what means „like a turk“
2. from Türk-(turk) and iman (believe) after become muslim
3. from Türk-(turk) and men (I) what means „ I/Me, the Turk“

Or do you count them to horosan turks?

[Kamal900]

Iranian Turkic Groups:

a) Khorasan Turks: Afshar, Celayir, Chaghtay, Ecirlid, Geraylid, Karagozlu, Ghazakh, Kengerid, Timurtash and Ustachlu tribbles
b) Turkmens: Northeastern Iran
c) Ghashghay Turks:Southern Iran
d) Afshar (Avshar) Turks: Urmia, Zanjan (Khamseh), Kuh-Giluye Afshars, Imamli Afshars, Aplu, Usalu/Osanlu and Eberlu
e) Khalaj Turks: The oldest Turkic group in Iran: South & Central Iran
f) Qajar Turks: last Turkic rulers of Iran, Northwest Iran, Mazandaran
g) Gharapapagh Turks: Northwest Iran
h) Ebi Verdi Turks: Shiraz
I) Kenger Turks: Around Teheran
j) The Other Turkish Populations: Baharlu, Ghipchaghs, Eynallullu, Shahsevenler, Gharadaghlids, Bayaties, Kengelies, Karachorlu, Bochaghchies and Karayies



Source: https://www.academia.edu/5930762/TURKISH_COMMUNITIES_Iran_Turkishness_and_Iran_Turk s_is_a_subject_that_takes_place_apon_the_subjects_ that_was_never_studied_up_untill_these_days._W._Ba rthold_gave_some_information_s_Altho_in_a_scattere d_way_concerni


Following clusters:

1. Northwest Turks (Azerbaijanis)
2. Khorasan Turks & Turkmens
3. South & Center Turks (Ghasghay, Khamseh, Isfahanian Turks..)

Turkic peoples of Iran are indeed the 2nd largest meta-ethnic group in Iran after the Iranian peoples like Persians, Luris, Kurds and so on.

[Kyp]

Dont forget the turkmens of Iran(İran Türkmenleri).

There are 3 theories about the term Turkmen:

1. from persian what means „like a turk“
2. from Türk-(turk) and iman (believe) after become muslim
3. from Türk-(turk) and men (I) what means „ I/Me, the Turk“

Or do you count them to horosan turks?

Are you just reffering to the Turkmens? They are usually seen as a seperate group from the "Torkouman". But sometimes they are grouped with other Khorasan Turks because of location. And they are part of the greater group of "Iranian Turks"

[Kyp]

On migrations and seperation of Azerbaijanis:


The immigration of Turks was not only from Iran to Anatolia, also at that time immigrations from Anatolia to Iran was also actualized. According to the expression of Faruk Sümer, we can find the branches of the Anatolian oymaks in Iran. Abig amount of the Turkish populations that live in North Azerbaijan, South Azerbaijan and some other states in Iran is the formation of the imigrations that were made from Anatolian oymaks. Big ethnic changes has not happened in Iran starting from the time that the Safavids existed in the XVI sentury untill near time. The division of Azerbaijan to two parts was made in the Russian Iranian agreement that was made in 1828, The existance of the North azerbaijani part in the Russian hand and the South part in the Iranian hand devided the fate and destiny of the population in to two parts.

[Mejgusu]

Are you just reffering to the Turkmens? They are usually seen as a seperate group from the "Torkouman". But sometimes they are grouped with other Khorasan Turks because of location. And they are part of the greater group of "Iranian Turks"

Its a different question. By definition, some say horosan turks are also turkmen, some say to other groups turkmen etc. Are torkouman another group or just the persian term? But if we have to generalize, i would say i meant the turkmens which also live in Central asia.

[Mejgusu]

On migrations and seperation of Azerbaijanis:

:thumb001:

( i cant give a thumb up)

[Babak]

Iranian azerbaijani nationalists who bled, died, and sacrificed for Iran:


Sattar Khan:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Sattar_khan.jpg/220px-Sattar_khan.jpg

Bagher Khan:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Bagherkhan.jpg/220px-Bagherkhan.jpg

Seqat-ol-Eslam Tabrizi

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Seqat-ol-Eslam_Tabrizi.PNG/330px-Seqat-ol-Eslam_Tabrizi.PNG

Hassan Taqizadeh:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Hassan_Taqizadeh_2.jpg/330px-Hassan_Taqizadeh_2.jpg

[Marmara]

Turkish historian İlber Ortaylı claims that it was Turks who named Iran as "Iran", while it was a provincal and ethnic naming before, after Turks' arrival it got stuck as the geographical name for entire Persian-speaking realm.

He also says the terms "Iran" and "Iranian" are good because they are pluralistic and inclusive, fits to a diverse and multi-cultural country.

[Dr_Maul]

Do you guys know how some Iranian Turks ended up with J1?

[Halgurd]

Turkish historian İlber Ortaylı claims that it was Turks who named Iran as "Iran", while it was a provincal and ethnic naming before, after Turks' arrival it got stuck as the geographical name for entire Persian-speaking realm.

Eranshahr?

[Marmara]

Eranshahr?

Iran (Aryan) was an ethnic name then wasn't it? I don't know the details, but i think after the arrival of Turks it has transformed from an ethnic name to a regional name. Eranshah means (Land of Aryans) so Iran was still used as an ethnic naming.

[Kyp]

Turko-Persian states:

Ghaznavid Empire: Mamluk origin
Seljuk Empire: Oghuz Turkic origin
Khwarazmian dynasty: Mamluk origin
Aq Qoyunlu: Federation of Oghuz Turkic origin
(Safavid Dynasty: Heavy turkicized Dynasty of Kurdish origin)
Afsharid Dynasty: Oghuz origin
Qajar Dynasty: Oghuz origin

[Kyp]

Do you guys know how some Iranian Turks ended up with J1?

Qajar Dynasty is J1 and a lot of Republic Azerbaijanis are J1

[Dr_Maul]

Qajar Dynasty is J1 and a lot of Republic Azerbaijanis are J1

Yeah, they also found an Atabeg of Nakhchivan from the 18 century who had J1 too. I think those that got it are the ones who migrated through Dagestan (also high J1)

[Mejgusu]

Turko-Persian states:

Ghaznavid Empire: Mamluk origin
Seljuk Empire: Oghuz Turkic origin
Khwarazmian dynasty: Mamluk origin
Aq Qoyunlu: Federation of Oghuz Turkic origin
(Safavid Dynasty: Heavy turkicized Dynasty of Kurdish origin)
Afsharid Dynasty: Oghuz origin
Qajar Dynasty: Oghuz origin

Can i add sone more?

Anatolian Seljuk State
All Anatolian Beyliks
Ottoman Empire/State
Timurid State
Babür State

1. one was the culturall center of Anatolia
2. were the the first turkoman states of Anatola, btw many of them were of afshar origin, one was even uyghur origin
3. was influenced by others yes, but it was still predominantly iranian influenced.
4. Timur loved the iranian culture
5. later more Indian influences

[Mejgusu]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7hamgEmXuO0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DfVQcbneqQg

I dont know how mich Azerbaijanis here can understand it, but the first video shows why every turky loves Ilber ortayli. If azerbaijanis would see that they will love him too
Second link is a very old documentary about the relationship between turks and iran.

[Mejgusu]

I hope your guys dont think i am spaming here, but i found a video of murat barfakci, another well known highly eminent historian. He is flipping out live in tv after some retarded fundamentalist viewers insulted shah Ismail. I just want to show how we feel relative to azerbaijani.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i2qw4mZt1vQ

[Oghuz]

Iranian azerbaijani nationalists who bled, died, and sacrificed for Iran:


Sattar Khan:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Sattar_khan.jpg/220px-Sattar_khan.jpg

Bagher Khan:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Bagherkhan.jpg/220px-Bagherkhan.jpg

Seqat-ol-Eslam Tabrizi

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Seqat-ol-Eslam_Tabrizi.PNG/330px-Seqat-ol-Eslam_Tabrizi.PNG

Hassan Taqizadeh:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Hassan_Taqizadeh_2.jpg/330px-Hassan_Taqizadeh_2.jpg

Good post

I will add more ... Brave Azeri Sons of Iran who died defending Iran or are still serving.

Javad Fakori

https://alchetron.com/cdn/javad-fakoori-6f3f848d-2ef7-4dc4-b148-86c0741d1e0-resize-750.jpeg

Ghafoor Jeddi

https://alchetron.com/cdn/ghafour-jeddi-07f6d273-d609-4e95-aa3b-d79b8c6f921-resize-750.jpg

Mehdi Bagheri

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_T_WuYPAX4b4/S_lev3sg-zI/AAAAAAAAAdM/Hu02DIS7nE0/s1600/___1_~1.JPG

Commander of IRGC Yahya Rahim Safavi

https://i1.wp.com/www.middleeastmonitor.com/wp-content/uploads/images/article_images/people/general-yahya-rahim-safavi.jpg

Major General Bagheri

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Mohammad_Bagheri_2019.jpg/880px-Mohammad_Bagheri_2019.jpg

Brigadier general Mostafa Najjar

https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20090606&t=2&i=10404772&w=640&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=img-2009-06-06T144937Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-401258-1

General Amir Hatami (Brigadier general and the current minister of defense of Iran)

https://media.mehrnews.com/d/2020/02/12/3/3381435.jpg

Supreme leader himself

https://i.redd.it/4en9h65tb3z01.png

[Kyp]

I hope your guys dont think i am spaming here]

Any contribution is welcomed (except derailing from the historic/cultural aspect of this thread for nationalistic purposes)

[Kyp]

Good post

I will add more ... Brave Azeri Sons of Iran who died defending Iran or are still serving.


You should have noted that these people have nothing to do with the guys in Bakak's post

[Mejgusu]

Also we shouldnt forget to mention the cuisine of them. For me the most important cultural part of any people ;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RRQ6hzUPWts
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_cuisine

[Eline]

Who have more an identity crises? Turks in Turkey or Azeri in Azerbaijan?

[Mejgusu]

Kardeşim bu kız nerden çıkıyor her zaman...

[Eline]

Kardeşim bu kız nerden çıkıyor her zaman...Belçika

[Kyp]

Kardeşim bu kız nerden çıkıyor her zaman...

It's a guy and he's Kurdish.

[Sacrificed Ram]

If there are Iranian Turks, then are Azeris, Turk Iranians?

[Sacrificed Ram]

If there are Iranian Turks, then are Azeris, Turk Iranians?

[Kyp]

If there are Iranian Turks, then are Azeris, Turk Iranians?

Iranian Turks = Turkish speaking people from Iran

[Mejgusu]

They are „Turks“ in iran. They have own history and many specific features in their culture but we all originated from same people and share a lot of history with anatolian turks. Like Germany and Austria, they waged wars against each other but are related and both are „German“.

[Oghuz]

You should have noted that these people have nothing to do with the guys in Bakak's post

Common factor ... Sincerity and honest love for their nation. All are heroes ...


Do you guys know how some Iranian Turks ended up with J1?

Chieftains of Qajar, Bayandur, Aq Qovanlu are all J1

Most probably Ayrumlu is also J1 because its origin is similar.

There are are three literary theories on this.

[Mejgusu]

Chieftains of Qajar, Bayandur, Aq Qovanlu are all J1

Most probably Ayrumlu is also J1 because its origin is similar.


They were one of the most important states and dynasties/families in Turkic history. We can discuss the origin of this haplogroup in their family, but those one which scrutinize their turkic origin is nothing but nonsense.

[Kyp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9n74VS2Tq0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3Xm3skbmNIIVgULh75Il4mGlDotS2iOw7g7T38u zthVLu0w2remc6YwEI

[Aileron]

Cool:thumb001:

[Babak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZVXEPeWaAg

[Hajimurad]

Chieftains of Qajar, Bayandur, Aq Qovanlu are all J1

Most probably Ayrumlu is also J1 because its origin is similar.

There are are three literary theories on this.
I've read Nadir shah deported Lezghins from Quba (North Azerbaijan) and Kyura (South Daghestan) and settled them in Khurasan.

[Sora]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9n74VS2Tq0

I've watched it with my mom and their lives are amazing! They're heavily Persianized but still kept some of their original traditions

[Kyp]

I've watched it with my mom and their lives are amazing! They're heavily Persianized but still kept some of their original traditions

The conversation with the grandma was very sweet :D

[Mejgusu]

The conversation with the grandma was very sweet :D

Haha for Turks its always cool to talk with other turkics :D

[Mejgusu]

Although i dont like deutsche welle, a cool documentary about a turkmen wedding in iran. I watched it in German once but unfortunately i dont find it. So long as its not a political thing, German documentaries are one of the best of the world. After i watched this, i was wondering. Although anatolian turks are just assimilated Greeks, Armenians and nearly every other people in that region, turkmen weddings are nearly the same as anatolian turkish.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7646d1

[Kyp]

Although i dont like deutsche welle, a cool documentary about a turkmen wedding in iran. I watched it in German once but unfortunately i dont find it. So long as its not a political thing, German documentaries are one of the best of the world. After i watched this, i was wondering. Although anatolian turks are just assimilated Greeks, Armenians and nearly every other people in that region, turkmen weddings are nearly the same as anatolian turkish.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7646d1

great find!

[Mejgusu]

They look like many of my relatives and the bride is beautiful. Interesting how relative they still are to anatolian turks.

[Kyp]

They look like many of my relatives and the bride is beautiful. Interesting how relative they still are to anatolian turks.

bride reminded me of some Azeri girls

[Mejgusu]

bride reminded me of some Azeri girls

Also they are beautiful. For turks they have a big bonus point just because their language. But ill stop here its too off topic lol :D

[Oghuz]

I've read Nadir shah deported Lezghins from Quba (North Azerbaijan) and Kyura (South Daghestan) and settled them in Khurasan.

Yes but this J1 prevalence among at-least 3-4 Turkoman entities predates Nader Shahs rise.

All stem from same source. its like Kimik => Bayandur => Aq Qoyunlu => Qajar. The chieftain male lineage is same for last 800 years and is confirmed J1.