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View Full Version : Nassbean compared to punics from Sardinia


Nassbean
05-04-2020, 04:53 PM
Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010
Distance: 2.9721% / 0.02972083 | ADC: 0.25x ---> 43% North african, 35% Sardinian, 22% levantine
35.0 Sardinian
22.0 Lebanese_Muslim
17.6 Moroccan_North
14.8 Algerian
10.6 Libyan

Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL007
Distance: 2.0147% / 0.02014679 | ADC: 0.25x ---> 49.8% Sardinian, 28.4% North African, 15% Levantine , 6.8% Sicilian
49.8 Sardinian
24.0 Algerian
10.8 Lebanese_Muslim
6.8 Sicilian_East
4.4 Libyan
4.2 Syrian

Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL006
Distance: 2.5480% / 0.02548003 | ADC: 0.25x ---> 49.8% North African, 40.2% Sardinian, 8.8% Iberian,1.2% Arab
40.2 Sardinian
30.2 Algerian
11.4 Libyan
8.8 Spanish_Galicia
8.2 Moroccan_North
1.2 Saudi

Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
Distance: 2.5109% / 0.02510867 | ADC: 0.25x ---> 69.2% North African, 23.4% Sardinian, 4.2% arab, 3.2% Levantine
54.8 Moroccan_North
23.4 Sardinian
8.6 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
4.2 Yemenite_Mahra
3.2 Algerian
3.2 Samaritan
2.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ


nassbean :

Target: Nassbean_scaled
Distance: 1.3979% / 0.01397937 | ADC: 0.25x ---> 95.6% North African , 4% Iberian, 0.4% sardinian
45.8 Moroccan_North
40.0 Algerian
7.0 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
3.0 Spanish_Extremadura
2.8 Libyan
1.0 Spanish_Valencia
0.4 Sardinian


Distances :


Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010
0.08480263 Algerian:ALG200
0.08929459 Moroccan_North:MNA3
0.08973543 Sicilian_West
0.09106359 Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese11AS14
0.09128427 Libyan:LIB9
0.09234661 Sicilian_East
0.09283379 Moroccan_North:MOJ2
0.09475993 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese4AQ115
0.09572359 Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese10AQ127
0.09615010 Moroccan_North:MNA6
0.09630287 Algerian:ALG270
0.09693653 Cypriot
0.09705033 BedouinA
0.09730939 Syrian:Ber9AG181
0.09750132 Italian_South
0.09776254 Algerian:ALG900
0.09893580 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese15AR37
0.09896102 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese22BA23
0.09908314 Syrian:Ber16AG177
0.09926644 Syrian:Ber5R35
0.09928484 Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese6AS15
0.09930787 Moroccan_North:MNA4
0.09984063 Lebanese_Christian
0.10070302 Lebanese_Druze:799
0.10103644 Lebanese_Druze:981
0.10128175 Lebanese_Muslim
0.10129985 Italian_Abruzzo
0.10185061 Samaritan:GSM537033
0.10218913 Syrian:Ber5AL10
0.10228206 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese6AQ115


Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL007
0.06829788 Sicilian_West
0.07095921 Sicilian_East
0.07876111 Italian_South
0.07909194 Italian_Abruzzo
0.08205546 Sardinian:HGDP01075
0.08224823 Sardinian:HGDP00665
0.08371105 Sardinian
0.08448103 Sardinian:HGDP01073
0.08774807 Italian_Tuscan
0.08862938 Sardinian:HGDP01078
0.08935283 Spanish_Extremadura
0.08947683 Spanish_Andalucia
0.08960523 Sardinian:HGDP01066
0.08986773 Spanish_Murcia
0.09064795 Portuguese
0.09271201 Cypriot
0.09332285 Italian_Bergamo
0.09360816 Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese11AS14
0.09457393 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.09470562 Spanish_Galicia
0.09514990 Syrian:Ber9AG181
0.09564089 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.09647071 Algerian:ALG200
0.09683315 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese4AQ115
0.09770053 Spanish_Baleares
0.09998508 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese15AR37
0.09998545 Samaritan:GSM537033
0.10062128 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese8AS15
0.10113855 Spanish_Valencia
0.10136897 Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese6AS15


Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL006
0.07707794 Algerian:ALG200
0.08782464 Moroccan_North:MNA3
0.08992221 Sicilian_West
0.09588120 Sicilian_East
0.09641935 Algerian:ALG270
0.09747974 Spanish_Extremadura
0.09842292 Sardinian:HGDP01075
0.09865723 Moroccan_North:MOJ2
0.09877287 Sardinian:HGDP00665
0.09881007 Portuguese
0.09887123 Moroccan_North:MNA4
0.09893242 Moroccan_North:MNA6
0.09936716 Spanish_Galicia
0.09963045 Sardinian
0.10002697 Spanish_Murcia
0.10006344 Sardinian:HGDP01073
0.10098434 Moroccan_North:MCH9
0.10162788 Italian_South
0.10189555 Italian_Abruzzo
0.10204658 Spanish_Andalucia
0.10238180 Algerian:ALG900
0.10278952 Sardinian:HGDP01078
0.10328394 Libyan:LIB9
0.10334559 Moroccan_North:MNA1
0.10366578 Moroccan_North:MCH13
0.10385244 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.10433819 Moroccan_North:MCH11
0.10567225 Italian_Tuscan
0.10607106 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T35
0.10615178 Sardinian:HGDP01066


Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
0.05206197 Moroccan_North:MNA3
0.05723143 Algerian:ALG200
0.06306588 Moroccan_North:MNA6
0.06528084 Algerian:ALG900
0.06755255 Moroccan_North:MNA4
0.06948545 Moroccan_North:MCH13
0.06996876 Algerian:ALG270
0.07033983 Moroccan_North:MOJ2
0.07036949 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T42
0.07082177 Moroccan_North:MNA1
0.07127432 Moroccan_North:MCH9
0.07136059 Mozabite:HGDP01263
0.07251554 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T35
0.07406055 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T44
0.07480310 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T52
0.07493255 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T43
0.07584706 Libyan:LIB9
0.07601364 Algerian:Algerian43A34
0.07610211 Moroccan_North:MCH11
0.07695818 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T39
0.07709583 Algerian:ALG600
0.07802202 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T11
0.07858704 Moroccan_North:MOJ6
0.07940224 Libyan:LIB5
0.08063430 Moroccan_North:MCH18
0.08150641 Libyan:LIB12
0.08195321 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T13
0.08205369 Tunisian:Tunisian20C4
0.08210772 Algerian:ALG700
0.08254464 Moroccan_North:MCH7



Distance to: Nassbean_scaled
0.02947808 Mozabite:HGDP01263
0.03201959 Moroccan_North:MNA4
0.03318434 Moroccan_North:MCH9
0.03400280 Moroccan_North:MOJ3
0.03479296 Moroccan_North:MCH8
0.03533234 Algerian:Algerian43A34
0.03619852 Algerian:ALG270
0.03654434 Moroccan_North:MCH18
0.03655068 Algerian:ALG400
0.03668685 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T35
0.03711418 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T52
0.03814341 Algerian:ALG900
0.03825668 Moroccan_North:MNA1
0.03857734 Algerian:ALG600
0.03858662 Moroccan_North:MNA6
0.03874723 Algerian:ALG210
0.03894824 Algerian:ALG200
0.03963934 Algerian:ALG700
0.03987468 Moroccan_North:MCH11
0.03996273 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T44
0.03996526 Moroccan_North:MNA3
0.04066523 Moroccan_North:MOJ2
0.04190162 Tunisian:Tunisian20F4
0.04217280 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T42
0.04248493 Moroccan_North:MCH13
0.04368878 Mozabite:HGDP01264
0.04379081 Berber_Tunisia_Sen:BerSF5
0.04383003 Moroccan_North:MOJ6
0.04414294 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T28
0.04485614 Berber_Tunisia_Chen:T16



We can try other sources if you want :D
dududud
05-04-2020, 06:54 PM
These samples seem admixed. Outlier sample, i suppose the native punic were least admixed.
Mejgusu
05-04-2020, 06:58 PM
These samples seem admixed. Outlier sample, i suppose the native punic were least admixed.

But i think these people were more northafrican/near eastern shifted. I think somethink like med+northafrika+sw-asia, like berbers.
Adamm
05-04-2020, 07:07 PM
Punics were Phoenicians right?
Nassbean
05-04-2020, 07:09 PM
These samples seem admixed. Outlier sample, i suppose the native punic were least admixed.

yes punics mixed with local sardinian people it's obvious when we look at these results
Nassbean
05-07-2020, 02:38 PM
Punics were Phoenicians right?

not really that's why romans themselves distinguished the Phoenicians of the East "phoenices" and those of the West from a mixture with the local populations "poeni" (Punic)
Gallop
05-07-2020, 02:48 PM
Post the coordinates so we can do the calculator.
Nassbean
05-07-2020, 03:37 PM
Post the coordinates so we can do the calculator.

ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL006,0.053497,0.166547,0.0207 42,-0.060401,0.043085,-0.030678,-0.00987,0.005538,0.050517,0.041368,-0.00341,0.001649,0.008622,-0.009771,0.00095,-0.001193,0.015125,-0.012922,-0.007793,0.001,-0.001872,-0.021887,0.00912,-0.000843,0.001437
ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL007,0.071709,0.151314,0.0086 74,-0.0646,0.040931,-0.03263,-0.014806,0.003692,0.032519,0.043919,0.001624,-0.004796,-0.003865,-0.01734,-0.007193,-0.011668,-0.004955,-0.0019,-0.002263,-0.010005,-0.011729,-0.008903,-0.00419,-0.009278,0.004191
ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010,0.050082,0.152329,0.0015 08,-0.081719,0.033545,-0.032351,-0.009165,-0.002769,0.035996,0.031709,0.001949,-0.005245,0.000297,-0.019405,-0.002986,0.001591,0.017863,-0.010388,-0.013073,0.001626,-0.013102,-0.007172,-0.003574,-0.011929,0.019759
ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011,0.030732,0.146236,0.0041 48,-0.072675,0.035083,-0.038766,-0.009635,0.002769,0.060335,0.041914,0.010555,-0.008692,0.008474,-0.013074,0.007736,-0.001458,0.007562,-0.023057,-0.023506,0.003377,-0.019091,-0.019661,0.022061,-0.004699,0.014609
Gallop
05-07-2020, 03:59 PM
Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 9.8666% / 0.09866615
100.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic


Distance to: Gallop_scaled
0.09917717 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL007
0.10737670 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL006
0.12484368 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010
0.14034967 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
SUPREEEEEME
05-07-2020, 04:00 PM
VILO11 is a deep dive match of mine
Nassbean
05-07-2020, 04:16 PM
VILO11 is a deep dive match of mine

interesting he's the most NA one. It's probably through your italian ancestors no ?
Nassbean
05-07-2020, 04:27 PM
https://i.imgur.com/fPNjbDN.png
gixajo
05-07-2020, 04:38 PM
Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 10.6252% / 0.10625201
100.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic

Distance to: gixajo_scaled
0.10649846 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL007
0.11545810 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL006
0.13389174 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010
0.14978832 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
gixajo
05-07-2020, 04:58 PM
Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 10.6252% / 0.10625201
100.0 ITA_Sardinia_Punic

Distance to: gixajo_scaled
0.10649846 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL007
0.11545810 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL006
0.13389174 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010
0.14978832 ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
Kamal900
05-07-2020, 06:09 PM
It proves that the Punics were mostly of Berber ancestry and so on, and the Levantine genetic contribution wasn't massive or anything in the Maghreb. Nice results though.
SUPREEEEEME
05-07-2020, 06:12 PM
interesting he's the most NA one. It's probably through your italian ancestors no ?

Could be a shared segment of anything, in my opinion. Perhaps even Berber ancestry.
Hajimurad
05-07-2020, 06:18 PM
yes punics mixed with local sardinian people it's obvious when we look at these results

What happened with Punics who lived in Iberia, Sardinia and Africa? Which modern groups can be their direct descendants? Same question about Romans lived in these territories.
Nassbean
05-07-2020, 06:23 PM
What happened with Punics who lived in Iberia, Sardinia and Africa? Which modern groups can be their direct descendants? Same question about Romans lived in these territories.

Punics in Iberia mixed with the locals that's why the other day I showed you this :
"In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8th to 12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African–related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D)."

source : https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

they did the same in Sardinia. As for Africa we don't have genetic samples yet but based on what we already have they were genetically north african.

Romans didn't let a significant genetic impact on North Africa simply because they were not numerous :


"In fact, if we are trying to determine the numerical size of the contingent of Roman or Italian immigrants in Africa, we have every reason to admit that it was small: and it does not grow much even if we add immigrants to it These immigrants include senior civil servants, but junior office staff are recruited locally; a few large landowners, but most often they reside in Rome and are represented in Africa by stewards and farmers, many of whom local origin: some Italian, oriental or Spanish traders, in the coastal towns and in some big localities of the interior like Cirta. These are the contributions which do not change the Berber character [...] "L'Afrique romaine by Louis Leschi


"In short, the army brought into Africa, in the first century, a number of men from other provinces of the Empire. But the proportion of this non-African element went on weakening until become, around 150, practically nul. It was Africans who ensured order in Africa, on behalf of Rome. " -> "the auxiliary troops of the African army are recruited almost exclusively in Africa, like the 3rd legion. One exception is worth noting: that of the corps of Syrian auxiliaries, where the authentic Syrians were always in majority "Roman Africa by Louis Leschi

sorry if the translation is not good
Nassbean
05-07-2020, 06:30 PM
What happened with Punics who lived in Iberia, Sardinia and Africa? Which modern groups can be their direct descendants? Same question about Romans lived in these territories.

I edited my post
Kamal900
05-07-2020, 06:36 PM
Punics in Iberia mixed with the locals that's why the other day I showed you this :

source : https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

they did the same in Sardinia. As for Africa we don't have genetic samples yet but based on what we already have they were genetically north african.

Romans didn't let a significant genetic impact on North Africa simply because they were not numerous :





sorry if the translation is not good

Makes perfect sense for me. I mean, Punics were basically phoenicianized Berber natives which is true for the Arabized Maghrebis today as well.
Kamal900
05-07-2020, 06:38 PM
Could be a shared segment of anything, in my opinion. Perhaps even Berber ancestry.

Sephardic Jews do have some Berber ancestry, but not as much as say Palestinian and Egyptian Muslims.
https://i.ibb.co/SwJkhqL/2020-02-18-07-46-22-g25vahaduo-genetics-ovh-b45d1407d378.jpg
Nassbean
05-07-2020, 06:39 PM
Makes perfect sense for me. I mean, Punics were basically phoenicianized Berber natives which is true for the Arabized Maghrebis today as well.

exactly it's like saying modern inhabitants of kairouan are arabs because the city was originally built by arabs :picard1:
axlredneck
05-07-2020, 07:00 PM
I modelled the Sardinian Punics with the following pops and later extracted the European ancestry.

"sample": "Custom:ITA_Sardinia_Punic",
"fit": 0.8378,
"Sardinian": 52.5,
"Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 20,
"Berber_MAR_TIZ": 17.5,
"Bell_Beaker_Bavaria": 10

Without their European ancestry they look something like this:

Distance to: Carthaginian/Punic
0.03945399 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.04816551 Libyan
0.04818200 Tunisian
0.05073548 Egyptian
0.05382844 Moroccan_North
0.05799441 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.07011685 Algerian
0.07422022 BedouinA
0.07615268 Mozabite
0.08553981 Moroccan
0.08841778 Palestinian
0.09193529 Jordanian
0.09287386 Libyan_Jew
0.09366604 Tunisian_Jew
0.10097875 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.10149613 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.10286984 Yemenite_Amran
0.10317944 Moroccan_Jew
0.10603207 Saharawi
0.10841215 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.11220473 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.11477532 Syrian
0.11603617 Karaite_Egypt
0.11698255 BedouinB
0.11781814 Lebanese_Muslim
0.11853812 Yemenite_Jew
0.11895325 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.11915960 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.11915960 Samaritan
0.11986154 Syrian_Jew
0.12124159 Sephardic_Jew
0.12201212 Romaniote_Jew
0.12368097 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.12406208 Lebanese_Christian
0.12473501 Italian_Jew
0.12480916 Saudi
0.12486547 Lebanese_Druze
0.12793470 Druze
0.12856531 Yemenite_Mahra
0.12951009 Maltese
0.13004713 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.13386952 Cypriot
0.13641067 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.13793278 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.13820382 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.13925654 Iraqi_Jew
0.13985145 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.14050486 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.14225956 Sicilian_West
0.14264402 Italian_Calabria