Why do I score excess SHG/Baltic HG?

[Jana]

On every calculator. My steppe is actually pretty low for a Croat.
Stears scores around 10% more steppe than I do, even Bosniensis scores around 5% more steppe than me.
And both of them are more south shifted than me.

My steppe is barely higher than of average Iberians.

But my SHG/Baltic HG on every G25 calculator is off the charts, higher even than many northern Europeans and way higher than south Slavs.

Where do I get that from? I wonder why I have excess HG and below average steppe.

[gixajo]

On every calculator. My steppe is actually pretty low for a Croat.
Stears scores around 10% more steppe than I do, even Bosniensis scores around 5% more steppe than me.
And both of them are more south shifted than me.

My steppe is barely higher than of average Iberians.

But my SHG/Baltic HG on every G25 calculator is off the charts, higher even than most of northern Europeans and way highest than south Slavs.

Where do I get that from? I wonder why I have excess HG and below average steppe.

I didn´t know even you had G25 coordinates, never saw your results or Stears ones.

How much is your SHG high in g25 results usually?

[Jana]

I didn´t know even you had G25 coordinates, never saw your results or Stears ones.

How much is your SHG high in g25 results usually?

Around 20% usually, and I noticed this on every calc I ran. Check out latest thread are you closer to EEF or Yamnaya, I posted both our results. Mine:

43.2 EEF
36.0 Yamnaya
19.8 SHG
1.0 CHG

[J. Ketch]

Unless it's a very good fit, any result can be taken with salt, especially for individuals. Unrealistically high HG is probably making up for the Steppe source being inaccurate.

I think one of the Dereivka (Eneolithic Ukraine) samples is pulled toward Baltic HG.

[gixajo]

Around 20% usually, and I noticed this on every calc I ran. Check out latest thread are you closer to EEF or Yamnaya, I posted both our results. Mine:

43.2 EEF
36.0 Yamnaya
19.8 SHG
1.0 CHG

This is the ADD DIST COL :No result or any other?

I don´t know exactly what is the average for Croatians in SHG, but if I don´t remember bad, you susually are quite North Shifted , so maybe is not so strange to score so high in this component. it´s not so rare some type of variation from national average, and less even in a region as Croatia, that you have quite different inputs.

I tried to acces to the page 3 of this thread: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?321836-G25-Are-you-closer-to-EEF-Yamnaya-or-other-ancient-populations/page3

But I don´t know why I cannot see only that page 3...

[gixajo]

Unless it's a very good fit, any result can be taken with salt, especially for individuals. Unrealistically high HG is probably making up for the Steppe source being inaccurate.

I think one of the Dereivka (Eneolithic Ukraine) samples is pulled toward Baltic HG.

One result don´t necessarily indicate anything, but if many results point towards same issue, this trend should be taken as quite probable issue IMO.

[Maintenance]

The northern european samples are horrible btw, they are not the ethnicity they are claimed to be.

[Jana]

Thanks Creoda!


This is the ADD DIST COL :No result or any other?

I don´t know exactly what is the average for Croatians in SHG, but if I don´t remember bad, you susually are quite North Shifted , so maybe is not so strange to score so high in this component. it´s not so rare some type of variation from national average, and less even in a region as Croatia, that you have quite different inputs.

I tried to acces to the page 3 of this thread: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?321836-G25-Are-you-closer-to-EEF-Yamnaya-or-other-ancient-populations/page3

But I don´t know why I cannot see only that page 3...

0 pen/no adjustment, ofcourse. My results are on the last page :)

[Jana]

The northern european samples are horrible btw, they are not the ethnicity they are claimed to be.

Those are all ancient samples, they don't belong to any ethnicity lol.

[Jana]

Unless it's a very good fit, any result can be taken with salt, especially for individuals. Unrealistically high HG is probably making up for the Steppe source being inaccurate.

I think one of the Dereivka (Eneolithic Ukraine) samples is pulled toward Baltic HG.

PS Lukasz score excess SHG too (over 25% I think), but he is Polish so for him it makes more sense.

[Maintenance]

Those are all ancient samples, they don't belong to any ethnicity lol.

I mean overall in the calculators on that site.

[Ion Basescul]

On every calculator. My steppe is actually pretty low for a Croat.
Stears scores around 10% more steppe than I do, even Bosniensis scores around 5% more steppe than me.
And both of them are more south shifted than me.

My steppe is barely higher than of average Iberians.

But my SHG/Baltic HG on every G25 calculator is off the charts, higher even than many northern Europeans and way higher than south Slavs.

Where do I get that from? I wonder why I have excess HG and below average steppe.

It is normal for East and West Slavs to score heavily in Eastern Hunter Gatherer. The ethnogenesis of the Slavs is hypothesised to trace to the Pripyat' Marshes. If you look at the Ukrainian samples from Neolithic and even the early Bronze Age, you will see that as opposed to those West of them, their genetic profiles were mainly Eastern Hunter Gatherer and not Farmer. When Yamnaya and other steppe folk came in, these are the kind of people that they mixed with in that region. That's why all Slavs carry extra EHG, which in models can't be covered by the Yamnaya component, because this is a different component/people after all. Obviously South Slavs carry less, because from the middle ages onward they mixed with heavily Farmer Southeast Euro folk, but the mark is still there and everyone will score at least some EHG. This is similar to the situation in Spain, where there was a heavy WHG presence. You will notice how Spaniards/Basques will also score heavily in a Hunter Gatherer component.

[Jana]

I mean overall in the calculators on that site.

Which site, G25? They are all normal ancient samples. I don't know based on what you claim they are horrible, didn't notice this at all.

[Jana]

It is normal for East and West Slavs to score heavily in Eastern Hunter Gatherer. The ethnogenesis of the Slavs is hypothesised to trace to the Pripyat' Marshes. If you look at the Ukrainian samples from Neolithic and even the early Bronze Age, you will see that as opposed to those West of them, their genetic profiles were mainly Eastern Hunter Gatherer and not Farmer. When Yamnaya and other steppe folk came in, these are the kind of people that they mixed with in that region. That's why all Slavs carry extra EHG, which in models can't be fully contained within the Yamnaya component. Obviously South Slavs carry less, because from the middle ages onward they mixed with heavily Farmer Southeast Euro folk, but the mark is still there and everyone will score at least some EHG. This is similar to the situation in Spain, where there was a heavy WHG presence. You will notice how Spaniards/Basques will also score heavily in a Hunter Gatherer component.

True, but if you notice I score excess SHG and Baltic HG in other calcs. From what I know SHG and Baltic Narva samples were mix of WHG and EHG?

[Maintenance]

Which site, G25? They are all normal ancient samples. I don't know based on what you claim they are horrible, didn't notice this at all.

I talked to lukazs about it when using Cubbie's kit (a rl friend) and every site and calculator point him to where he has his roots (Jämtland Sweden) but there hes not even swedish.
And he won't fix it either.

[Jana]

I talked to lukazs about it when using Cubbie's kit (a rl friend) and every site and calculator point him to where he has his roots (Jämtland Sweden) but there hes not even swedish.
And he won't fix it either.

G25 is ran by Davidski, btw. But yes his modern averages are not very good.

[gixajo]

It is normal for East and West Slavs to score heavily in Eastern Hunter Gatherer. The ethnogenesis of the Slavs is hypothesised to trace to the Pripyat' Marshes. If you look at the Ukrainian samples from Neolithic and even the early Bronze Age, you will see that as opposed to those West of them, their genetic profiles were mainly Eastern Hunter Gatherer and not Farmer. When Yamnaya and other steppe folk came in, these are the kind of people that they mixed with in that region. That's why all Slavs carry extra EHG, which in models can't be covered by the Yamnaya component, because this is a different component/people after all. Obviously South Slavs carry less, because from the middle ages onward they mixed with heavily Farmer Southeast Euro folk, but the mark is still there and everyone will score at least some EHG. This is similar to the situation in Spain, where there was a heavy WHG presence. You will notice how Spaniards/Basques will also score heavily in a Hunter Gatherer component.

In Spain who score most in HG(WHG), are those from Soria and la Rioja, and then Basques, but Soria and La Rioja are neighbouring regions of basque Country.

I scored usually quite high in WHG (and I am only 50% Basque), around a 14%.

[Ion Basescul]

True, but if you notice I score excess SHG and Baltic HG in other calcs. From what I know SHG and Baltic Narva samples were mix of WHG and EHG?

Yes, they are a mix, around 50/50 if I'm not mistaken, but that's normal. This signal can be interpreted as a relic to the past, which shows that some of your ancestors came from the Northeast.
I can take a closer look if you want to share a calculator.

[J. Ketch]

PS Lukasz score excess SHG too (over 25% I think), but he is Polish so for him it makes more sense.
Without Eneolithic Ukraine

Target: Feodora
Distance: 3.9358% / 0.03935760
42.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
37.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva
1.8 Armenia_EBA
0.2 Han

Target: Lukasz
Distance: 7.4838% / 0.07483829
40.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
22.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva
3.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

With Eneolithic Ukraine

Target: Feodora
Distance: 3.7357% / 0.03735652
37.8 UKR_Dereivka_I_En1
37.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
23.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.6 Han
0.2 UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En

Target: Lukasz
Distance: 6.0498% / 0.06049778
75.4 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2
9.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.6 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
4.4 Armenia_EBA
3.6 UKR_Dereivka_I_En1

The fit still isn't great but it shows there's no need to attribute Scandinavian or even Baltic HG to what can be found on or near the Steppe, and more recently.

[Maintenance]

G25 is ran by Davidski, btw. But yes his modern averages are not very good.

Ah ok didn't know, but yea the updated eurogenes on that (vahduo?) is the same, i ran 10 swedish kits and none were swedish on eurogenes lol

[Jana]

Yes, they are a mix, around 50/50 if I'm not mistaken, but that's normal. This signal can be interpreted as a relic to the past, which shows that some of your ancestors came from the Northeast.
I can take a closer look if you want to share a calculator.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?321836-G25-Are-you-closer-to-EEF-Yamnaya-or-other-ancient-populations&p=6675480&viewfull=1#post6675480

[Jana]

Without Eneolithic Ukraine

Target: Feodora
Distance: 3.9358% / 0.03935760
42.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
37.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva
1.8 Armenia_EBA
0.2 Han

Target: Lukasz
Distance: 7.4838% / 0.07483829
40.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
22.8 Baltic_LTU_Narva
3.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

With Eneolithic Ukraine

Target: Feodora
Distance: 3.7357% / 0.03735652
37.8 UKR_Dereivka_I_En1
37.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
23.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.6 Han
0.2 UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En

Target: Lukasz
Distance: 6.0498% / 0.06049778
75.4 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2
9.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.6 UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
4.4 Armenia_EBA
3.6 UKR_Dereivka_I_En1

The fit still isn't great but it shows there's no need to attribute Scandinavian or even Baltic HG to what can be found on or near the Steppe, and more recently.

Thanks! :)

[Jana]

Ah ok didn't know, but yea the updated eurogenes on that (vahduo?) is the same, i ran 10 swedish kits and none were swedish on eurogenes lol

Oh, updated Vahaduo is ran by Lukasz indeed. You can send him your friends results to improve Swedish average.

[Jana]

double

[Ion Basescul]

Here is a pan-European run, sorted by SHG in descending order. Those who have extra SHG, which can't be contained within the Yamnaya component, received extra HG admixture from the Northeast. That would be easiest to explain with the Slavs. The only exception IMO are the Finns, because Finnic people are the only ones besides Balto-Slavs who were native to Northeast Euro HG-rich regions.


<tbody>
Target
Distance
CHG

EEF

EHG

Iberomaurusian

Iran_Neolithic

Natufian

Rudnaya

SHG

Sub-Saharan

WHG

Yamnaya



Lithuanian_SZ
0.07893343
•

0.0
25.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
33.8
0.0
0.0
41.0


Russian_Smolensk
0.07180916
•

0.0
31.0
0.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
26.6
0.0
0.0
42.2


Belarusian
0.07164757
•

0.0
31.4
4.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
25.8
0.0
0.0
38.6


Polish
0.05897414
•

0.0
34.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
24.8
0.0
0.0
41.2


Finnish
0.05595810
•

0.0
27.2
13.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
3.2
22.8
0.0
0.0
33.6


Finnish_East
0.05820129
•

0.0
24.2
16.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
5.4
22.8
0.0
0.0
31.0


Ukrainian
0.06125684
•

0.0
34.2
2.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
22.6
0.0
0.0
40.6


Slovakian
0.04711456
•

0.0
36.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
22.4
0.0
0.0
40.8


Russian_Pinega
0.06252471
•

0.0
25.2
22.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
7.2
19.2
0.0
0.0
26.2


Slovenian
0.04985344
•

0.0
42.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
18.4
0.0
0.0
39.2


Hungarian
0.04370901
•

0.0
41.2
0.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
17.6
0.0
0.0
40.6


Croatian
0.04609575
•

0.0
42.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.6
0.0
17.0
0.0
0.0
40.4


Ion_Basescul_mom_MyHeritage
0.04887137
•

0.0
41.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
1.4
15.4
0.0
0.0
41.6


Bosnian
0.04577937
•

0.0
44.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.2
0.0
13.4
0.0
0.0
42.0


Ion_Basescul_23andme+LivingDNA
0.03737105
•

0.0
43.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
3.2
12.6
0.0
0.0
41.0


R.Moldova_North_and_Centre
0.04588281
•

0.0
41.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
1.6
1.2
12.6
0.0
0.0
43.0


Ion_Basescul_dad_MyHeritage
0.04797876
•

0.2
41.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.6
12.4
0.2
0.0
45.4


R.Moldova
0.04334566
•

0.0
43.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
2.2
1.0
11.6
0.0
0.0
42.2


Serbian
0.04291238
•

0.0
47.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
1.4
0.0
10.0
0.0
0.0
41.2


Bulgarian
0.03579242
•

1.4
48.6
0.0
0.0
1.4
1.8
0.4
8.4
0.0
0.0
38.0


Romanian
0.03660198
•

0.0
48.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
1.2
0.6
8.2
0.0
0.6
41.0


R.Moldova_South
0.03471537
•

3.0
46.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
4.8
0.0
7.0
0.0
0.0
38.6


Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03071095
•

2.2
52.2
0.0
0.0
2.2
4.2
0.0
3.6
0.0
0.0
35.6


Albanian
0.03212181
•

2.4
55.2
0.0
0.0
1.8
2.2
0.4
3.0
0.0
0.4
34.6


German
0.04115581
•

0.0
39.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
2.2
0.0
11.8
47.0


Greek_Peloponnese
0.02497555
•

4.4
55.8
0.0
0.0
4.8
4.0
0.0
1.2
0.0
0.0
29.8


French_Occitanie
0.03812204
•

0.0
48.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
13.4
38.2


French_Paris
0.04127799
•

0.0
45.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
12.2
42.4


French_Provence
0.03006625
•

0.0
50.8
0.0
0.4
0.0
0.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
8.8
39.8


French_Seine-Maritime
0.04310359
•

0.0
41.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
11.4
47.2


French_South
0.04334966
•

0.0
52.8
0.0
0.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
16.6
30.2


French_Brittany
0.04531346
•

0.0
39.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
13.8
47.0


French_Corsica
0.02694216
•

1.0
58.6
0.0
0.0
0.6
3.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
6.0
30.2


English
0.04970881
•

0.0
37.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
14.0
49.0


Irish
0.05113862
•

0.0
34.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
13.8
51.4


Spanish_Andalucia
0.03762544
•

0.0
52.2
0.0
4.6
0.0
0.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
11.8
31.0


Spanish_Aragon
0.04286340
•

0.0
53.6
0.0
2.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
12.8
31.2


Spanish_Asturias
0.05667580
•

0.0
51.0
0.0
5.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
13.2
30.8


Italian_Apulia
0.02742664
•

6.8
52.8
0.0
0.0
4.6
9.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.4
26.4


Italian_Basilicata
0.02296464
•

6.2
52.6
0.0
0.0
5.8
9.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.2
26.2


Italian_Bergamo
0.03416411
•

0.0
57.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
6.6
35.6


Swiss_French
0.03073003
•

0.0
49.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
10.8
39.4


Swiss_German
0.03761975
•

0.0
45.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
11.0
43.4


Swiss_Italian
0.02662779
•

1.0
52.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
4.2
0.2
0.0
0.0
4.4
37.8


Norwegian
0.04930045
•

0.0
34.0
3.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
13.8
48.6


Icelandic
0.05143692
•

0.0
32.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
15.8
52.0


Danish
0.05448359
•

0.0
34.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
14.4
51.2


Italian_Tuscany
0.02525992
•

2.6
54.4
0.0
0.0
0.8
4.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
3.2
34.2


Italian_Umbria
0.02268345
•

3.4
54.6
0.0
0.0
2.8
5.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
2.0
31.8


Dutch
0.04658732
•

0.0
35.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
13.6
50.8


Belgian
0.03997379
•

0.0
42.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
11.8
45.4

</tbody>

[ph2ter]

https://i.imgur.com/XrCPFkz.png

[Bessarion]

https://i.imgur.com/XrCPFkz.png

I suppose it one of the Vahadoo calcs. Can you share (probably it was here, but right now there is a numerous, so it is hard to follow).?