PCA of Iron Age Iberians Compared to Present-day Iberians and Neighboring Populations: (reddit)

[Luso]

This was posted on Reddit by the 23andMe mod: "Spacemutant14"- regarding the genetic pool of Iberians. Many people have said that modern Iberians are heavily mixed with North African from the time of the Reconquista, but evidence seems to not correlate with this.


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=98599&d=1589331780

He was responding to a lot of troll behavior to Iberians on the 23andme sub reddit.

Here is what he said:

"Due to some recently....interesting claims flying around the subreddit regarding present day Iberians, I decided to seek out the true.

The jist of these 4chan-level claims can be summed up with 'Modern Iberians are super mixed with Moors and are up to 40% North African and 23andMe won't show it. The original Iberians were blue-eyed, blonde haired North Western Europeans.'

Beyond the fact of how ridiculous these claims are, do they have legitimacy? On the PCA above, we have present-day Iberians (Spanish, Portuguese, Basque), neighboring present-day populations, and most importantly Iron Age Iberians from 800 BCE - 100 BCE. Now, the time frame these Iron Age samples are from is critical as it is right before the major Roman Empire expansion as well as before the Umayyad/Moorish conquest of Iberia.

With that in-mind, what does the PCA above present? Modern Basque are virtually identical to Iron Age Iberians. Spanish and Portuguese are also very similar, however it seems they have a pull towards other southern Europeans implying some additional admixture from them (perhaps from the Romans?). Running separate admixture analyses as well as looking at the PCA via different projections, it actually appears present-day Iberians also have additional admixture from Northwestern Europe. How ironic is that, present-day Iberians have more 'Northwestern European' related admixture compared to Iron Age Iberians, contrary to what some individuals have claimed. This admixture can also be explained due to historic movement of various people during and right after the collapse of the western Roman empire.

Now for the big question, how much did North Africans impact the local Iberian population? Looking at the PCA, clearly nothing over 25% otherwise there would have been a visible shift towards North Africans. Unfortunately for a lot of people hoping for a specific answer, I'm not really going to give one. (Cue my rant about the standards I hold for historic genetic analysis) This is due to a lack of Iron Age North Africans samples and additional Iron Age Iberian samples from the southwest (the current ones are from the North and East) I would like to have before throwing out numbers. There are a few ancient migrant North African samples found in Europe during the Bronze Age and Iron Age which pretty much cluster with modern North Africans, and the current Iron Age Iberian samples will likely be very similar to any future IA southwestern Iberian samples found. However, I still want to wait for more ancient samples before calculating specific numbers to be confident in the information I provide (I might get impatient later and just use what we have now). All I can say is that as of now it seems North African ancestry from Moors in present-day Iberians is roughly within a range of 0-10%. I'm not sure about the average, it could be 1%, 5%, 3%, 8%, idk."


Thoughts?

Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/gd44xh/pca_of_iron_age_iberians_compared_to_presentday/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[Luso]

Another comment stated:

"Last year, or a couple of years ago, there was a substantial genetic study in Andalusia (South of Spain) to try verify the claim the Andalusians have more Berber blood than the rest of Spain. Not surprisingly for us historians, they don't. Let me explain.

The Berbers, Arabs, and Syrians that invaded the Iberian Peninsula in 711 only numbered some 40,000 people, nearly all being Berbers. When they conquered just about all of the Peninsula, they did not intermarry a lot with the local populations, becoming some sort of aristocratic caste. A bit the same applies to the Goths that had invaded the Peninsula three centuries prior.

So, the genetic legacy of Al Andalus is nearly non-existent, but the cultural legacy is immense."

[Bosniensis]

North Africans in the past were FAR superior in technology and everything than Iberians who were tribal people.

Take for example Carthage and it's empire etc..

Even Egypt was superior to Greece or Rome. Syrians were superior to Egypt etc...

It became popular to deal with North Africans because of that, Europe prospered through adopting various tech from Africans and their traders certainly came to Spain which was very close to them.

[Luso]

North Africans in the past were FAR superior in technology and everything than Iberians who were tribal people.

Take for example Carthage and it's empire etc..

Even Egypt was superior to Greece or Rome. Syrians were superior to Egypt etc...

It became popular to deal with North Africans because of that, Europe prospered through adopting various tech from Africans and their traders certainly came to Spain which was very close to them.

Yeah, the mixing between the groups... I think... were more prevalent back then. It is also safer to say the Iberomaurasian admixture in Modern-day North Africans is if anything a lot more consistent in autosomal DNA.

[gixajo]

It would be interesting see the same PCA with Iron age populations of British Islands, France, Germany ,Italy, Greece etc...

Thanks for posting it.

Vou dormir depois de ter visto algo positivo e não discutindo, como de costume neste fórum.

Bom dia manhã, vizinhos.

[Adamm]

According to that PCA the Italians are more shifted towards N. Africa than Iberia?

[Luso]

According to that PCA the Italians are more shifted towards N. Africa than Iberia?

I'm still not exactly sure. It is possible as it is closer shifting on the x axis. However, y is showing Iberia is slightly higher shifting toward NA. I'm going to dm the creator to get his feedback and update you.

[Adamm]

I'm still not exactly sure. It is possible as it is closer shifting on the x axis. However, y is showing Iberia is slightly higher shifting toward NA. I'm going to dm the creator to get his feedback and update you.

alright, thanks

[Pedro Ruben]

The DNA of North Africa certainly arrived with diverse populations ... and I believe it is very old on the peninsula. But, regardless of the percentages, this DNA is important, as is the DNA of the Germanic or Italian peoples, because together with the natives they forged what we are genetically.

[Samnium]

According to that PCA the Italians are more shifted towards N. Africa than Iberia?

Central and Southern Italians plot south of Iberians, nothing surprising, Northern Italians plot very close though, at the same latitude but on an eastern branch.

[Luso]

The DNA of North Africa certainly arrived with diverse populations ... and I believe it is very old on the peninsula. But, regardless of the percentages, this DNA is important, as is the DNA of the Germanic or Italian peoples, because together with the natives they forged what we are genetically.

True. We are really a melting pot of so many areas. Native Iberians - who were already diverse, tartessos, counei, celtici, Lusitani, celtiberi etc- North West Europe, North African, Roman, Phonecian, Viking (on western coasts), Suebi, Visigoths, Celts...

[Luso]

alright, thanks

His response:

"From a genetic migrational perspective, Iberia has received more ‘gene flow’ from North Africa than Italy"

[Samnium]

Anway this PCA seems very incomplete, atleast in the italian case, there are nearly 0 Northern Italian samples...

[Luso]

Anway this PCA seems very incomplete, atleast in the italian case, there are nearly 0 Northern Italian samples...

Yeah, the author said it was. Still though it would be an interesting post with all the comments on the original. Shows a very simplistic perspective on Iron Age samples. Definitely should be expanded on.

[Nassbean]

Well reality is more complex I don't see why he focus on the iron age. Here it's well summarized :

https://i.imgur.com/cjOY5gJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2B48Bx9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2atrLS1.jpg




Our Copper Age dataset includes a newly reported male (I4246) from Camino de las Yeseras (14) in central Iberia, radiocarbon dated to 2473–2030 calibrated years BCE, who clusters with modern and ancient North Africans in the PCA (Fig. 1C and fig. S3) and, like ~3000 BCE Moroccans (8), can be well modeled as having ancestry from both Late Pleistocene North Africans (15) and Early Neolithic Europeans (tables S9 and S10). His genome-wide ancestry and uniparental markers (tables S1 and S4) are unique among Copper Age Iberians, including individuals from sites with many analyzed individuals such as Sima del Ángel, and point to a North African origin.


Our genetic evidence of sporadic contacts with North Africa during the Copper Age fits with the presence of African ivory at Iberian sites (16) and is further supported by a Bronze Age individual (I7162) from Loma del Puerco in southern Iberia who had 25% ancestry related to individuals like I4246 (Fig. 1D and table S16). However, these early movements from North Africa had a limited impact on Copper and Bronze Age Iberians, as North African ancestry only became widespread in the past ~2000 years.


In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8th to 12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African–related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D).

source : https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

[Luso]

Well reality is more complex I don't see why he focus on the iron age. Here it's well summarized :

https://i.imgur.com/cjOY5gJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2B48Bx9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2atrLS1.jpg









source : https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

Alright, cool for the response. Just wondering, where are the graphs from the source material? Particularly these which I also will ask some questions about:

https://i.imgur.com/cjOY5gJ.jpg

This one is showing the gene migration over the 8000 yr span. It is showing rampant cohabitation between North Africa and the southern portion of the Peninsula. " the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry." But are these samples used of native r1b data, or from migrant North Africans settling in the peninsula? I'm interested to know how this data was collected. Interesting indeed.
https://i.imgur.com/2B48Bx9.jpg
So this one is showing the admixture of North African entering the genepool during the Muslim invasion. But something interesting to me is the fact that it says there was no admixture before this. I would disagree, at least in partial. But these show that at least 30% of these genetic profiles have North African DNA admixture which is quite high. Not too sure how this data was manufactured but is it based on haplogroups mainly-- J2, and E1b???
https://i.imgur.com/2atrLS1.jpg
Okay so now I see the haplogroups... however, what I don't understand here is how the R1b-M269 samples have some of the lowest native iberian DNA and most North African admixture here. This doesn't make sense to me, as native haplos of North Africa and Sub-sahara are scoring higher in these Iberian admixtures??? What...


Not trying to say these studies are wrong. But some of the information I see here doesn't make sense to me. Indeed, the PCA was only Iron Age but I don't understand how some studies, for example, (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w) show Galicia having the most North African DNA when that makes no sense. Naturally, the southern portion, where I'm from in the Algarve experienced way more invasion. Whereas, places like Galicia barely got invaded. Small things like these make me hesitant to believe studies based on a small pop. size of a particular region.

:thumb001:

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Central and Southern Italians plot south of Iberians, nothing surprising, Northern Italians plot very close though, at the same latitude but on an eastern branch.

Iberians and North Italians have the same or close latitudes only if we are talking about blood, on geography North Italy is way North.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

The OP picture shows that ancient iberians previously roman, germanic and berber invasions were a western type of french parisian, something over Biscay bay. It seems basques were less affected by these changes.

[Nassbean]

Alright, cool for the response. Just wondering, where are the graphs from the source material?

the exact source : https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_0.pdf



https://i.imgur.com/cjOY5gJ.jpg

This one is showing the gene migration over the 8000 yr span. It is showing rampant cohabitation between North Africa and the southern portion of the Peninsula. " the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry." But are these samples used of native r1b data, or from migrant North Africans settling in the peninsula? I'm interested to know how this data was collected. Interesting indeed.

I don't understand your question they are random samples collected in south-eastern iberia before the moorish invasion (3th to 8th century AD) with e1b, r1b and j2a haplogroups They were locals because their iberian component is quite high




https://i.imgur.com/2B48Bx9.jpg
So this one is showing the admixture of North African entering the genepool during the Muslim invasion. But something interesting to me is the fact that it says there was no admixture before this. I would disagree, at least in partial. But these show that at least 30% of these genetic profiles have North African DNA admixture which is quite high. Not too sure how this data was manufactured but is it based on haplogroups mainly-- J2, and E1b???

they didn't put the haplogroups of these three samples If I'm not mistaken but they say no admixture because they are samples from north-east Spain and before the moorish conquest there was no NA admixture among the older samples from this region that's why they conclude that this conquest also impacted iberia genetically.



https://i.imgur.com/2atrLS1.jpg
Okay so now I see the haplogroups... however, what I don't understand here is how the R1b-M269 samples have some of the lowest native iberian DNA and most North African admixture here. This doesn't make sense to me, as native haplos of North Africa and Sub-sahara are scoring higher in these Iberian admixtures??? What...


Not trying to say these studies are wrong. But some of the information I see here doesn't make sense to me. Indeed, the PCA was only Iron Age but I don't understand how some studies, for example, (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w) show Galicia having the most North African DNA when that makes no sense. Naturally, the southern portion, where I'm from in the Algarve experienced way more invasion. Whereas, places like Galicia barely got invaded. Small things like these make me hesitant to believe studies based on a small pop. size of a particular region.

:thumb001:

well haplogroups don't necessarily correlate with autosomal composition you can for instance be fully german with a north african haplogroup and vice versa. As for Galicia that's what your study says :
We speculate that the pattern we see is driven by later internal migratory flows, such as between Portugal and Galicia, and this would also explain why Galicia and Portugal show indistinguishable ancestry sharing with non-Spanish groups more generally. Alternatively, it might be that these patterns reflect regional differences in patterns of settlement and integration with local peoples of north African immigrants themselves, or varying extents of the large-scale expulsion of Muslim people, which occurred post-Reconquista and especially in towns and cities10,32.

Also there are stories of some moorish groups converting to christianity (after the berber revolt against the umayyad dynasty) and sought refuge in the north ...same kind of migrations with moriscos. Or even earlier with romans giving territories in the north to moorish/numidian princes and soldiers because of their help in the war against the local celtiberian tribe

[Luso]

the exact source : https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_0.pdf




I don't understand your question they are random samples collected in south-eastern iberia before the moorish invasion (3th to 8th century AD) with e1b, r1b and j2a haplogroups They were locals because their iberian component is quite high





they didn't put the haplogroups of these three samples If I'm not mistaken but they say no admixture because they are samples from north-east Spain and before the moorish conquest there was no NA admixture among the older samples from this region that's why they conclude that this conquest also impacted iberia genetically.




well haplogroups don't necessarily correlate with autosomal composition you can for instance be fully german with a north african haplogroup and vice versa. As for Galicia that's what your study says :

Also there are stories of some moorish groups converting to christianity (after the berber revolt against the umayyad dynasty) and sought refuge in the north ...same kind of migrations with moriscos. Or even earlier with romans giving territories in the north to moorish/numidian princes and soldiers because of their help in the war against the local celtiberian tribe

Yeah, I'm sure there are admixtures and migrations during the reconquista period. I just think it was more prevalent in effecting the gene pool before this period. Especially with the ancient migrations.

[Duffmannn]

North Africans in the past were FAR superior in technology and everything than Iberians who were tribal people.

Take for example Carthage and it's empire etc..

Even Egypt was superior to Greece or Rome. Syrians were superior to Egypt etc...

It became popular to deal with North Africans because of that, Europe prospered through adopting various tech from Africans and their traders certainly came to Spain which was very close to them.

Carthaginians were phoenician colonizers that subjugated local berbers.

Outside nowadays Tunisia, the rest of North Africa was underdeveloped and didn´t entered seriously in history until the islamic times. There were basically only tribes un-affected by roman influence.

[Morena]

His conclusion of the amount of North African admixture based on the PCA is spot on (somewhere between 1 - 10% for non-Basque). I don't see why this is very difficult for some to comprehend. If they had more, they would cluster with NA. It doesn't mean that they don't have any, it just means that it's not high enough to affect their overall "placement" or race.

[Nassbean]

Carthaginians were phoenician colonizers that subjugated local berbers.

Outside nowadays Tunisia, the rest of North Africa was underdeveloped and didn´t entered seriously in history until the islamic times. There were basically only tribes un-affected by roman influence.

why do you lie ? Genetic studies show that carthaginians were north african not phoenician and that's why romans themselves distinguished the Phoenicians of the East "phoenices" and those of the West from a mixture with the local populations "poeni" (Punic)

also alongside carthage there were already powerful berber kingdoms if they were so weak why carthage didn't subjugated them? :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numidia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauretania


Also if they were so weak why in 206 BC Hasdrubal and Scipion are both present in siga to ask for the help of the aguellid Syphax (this shows how determining the alliance of the Berbers was) ?? You clearly don't know what you're talking about ...

here just for you I'm close to the punic-sardinian samples ...I would probably be even closer to carthaginian remains :https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?321937-Nassbean-compared-to-punics-from-Sardinia

[Cristiano viejo]

North Africans in the past were FAR superior in technology and everything than Iberians who were tribal people.

Take for example Carthage and it's empire etc..

Even Egypt was superior to Greece or Rome. Syrians were superior to Egypt etc...

It became popular to deal with North Africans because of that, Europe prospered through adopting various tech from Africans and their traders certainly came to Spain which was very close to them.
North Africans were, are and will be very undeveloped. If anything was superior, came from Arabs.




Not trying to say these studies are wrong.
They are. Showing e1b1 and J people trying to pass them as Iberian locals is nonsensical.


why do you lie ? Genetic studies show that carthaginians were north african not phoenician ]
lol :picard1:

[Gallop]

Another comment stated:

"Last year, or a couple of years ago, there was a substantial genetic study in Andalusia (South of Spain) to try verify the claim the Andalusians have more Berber blood than the rest of Spain. Not surprisingly for us historians, they don't. Let me explain.

The Berbers, Arabs, and Syrians that invaded the Iberian Peninsula in 711 only numbered some 40,000 people, nearly all being Berbers. When they conquered just about all of the Peninsula, they did not intermarry a lot with the local populations, becoming some sort of aristocratic caste. A bit the same applies to the Goths that had invaded the Peninsula three centuries prior.

So, the genetic legacy of Al Andalus is nearly non-existent, but the cultural legacy is immense."

Neither genetic nor cultural. If cultural refers to monuments or stones, there are also Roman ones.

Agriculture, livestock, slaughter of animals is inherited from the inhabitants of the Christian kingdoms. From night to morning we lead a life like any other Spanish. Funeral rites, celebration of parties, all the same as any other Spanish.

I have easily related to Muslims and I know their culture and traditions and it is another world. It is absurd to maintain something that does not hold up, now if we refer to 4 stones there are many Roman remains in Andalusia as well and Visigoths and Tartessos. As an Andalusian my legacy is Tartessos, El Argar, Los Millares, I could almost see the possibility of Rome more than Al Andalus.

The time of Al Andalus is a gap, a pit, do you know the Tajo de Ronda? a before and after, a victory and a defeat.

When the Almohades entered, half a million natives from the South of Spain moved to the north of Spain creating a super population there, 800 years later they would have recovered their land.

[Cristiano viejo]

Neither genetic nor cultural. If cultural refers to monuments or stones, there are also Roman ones.

Agriculture, livestock, slaughter of animals is inherited from the inhabitants of the Christian kingdoms. From night to morning we lead a life like any other Spanish. Funeral rites, celebration of parties, all the same as any other Spanish.

I have easily related to Muslims and I know their culture and traditions and it is another world. It is absurd to maintain something that does not hold up, now if we refer to 4 stones there are many Roman remains in Andalusia as well and Visigoths and Tartessos. As an Andalusian my legacy is Tartessos, El Argar, Los Millares, I could almost see the possibility of Rome more than Al Andalus.

The time of Al Andalus is a gap, a pit, do you know the Tajo de Ronda? a before and after, a victory and a defeat.

When the Almohades entered, half a million natives from the South of Spain moved to the north of Spain creating a super population there, 800 years later they would have recovered their land.
The immense North African cultural legacy in Spain = the Alhambra :lol: that is all the immense legacy, it is hilarious :laugh2:

[Kamal900]

lol :picard1:

He's not wrong, you know? Most of the Punic speakers of North Africa were local Berbers and so on.

[Kamal900]

why do you lie ? Genetic studies show that carthaginians were north african not phoenician and that's why romans themselves distinguished the Phoenicians of the East "phoenices" and those of the West from a mixture with the local populations "poeni" (Punic)

also alongside carthage there were already powerful berber kingdoms if they were so weak why carthage didn't subjugated them? :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numidia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauretania


Also if they were so weak why in 206 BC Hasdrubal and Scipion are both present in siga to ask for the help of the aguellid Syphax (this shows how determining the alliance of the Berbers was) ?? You clearly don't know what you're talking about ...

here just for you I'm close to the punic-sardinian samples ...I would probably be even closer to carthaginian remains :https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?321937-Nassbean-compared-to-punics-from-Sardinia

A Punic speaking Berber when walking down the forests of Iberia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0aM48CCjTw
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Septimius_Severus_Glyptothek_Munich_357_%28cropped %29.jpg

His Syrian Arab wife:
https://www.thevintagenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/lead-domna67r.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

He's not wrong, you know? Most of the Punic speakers of North Africa were local Berbers and so on.

He is very wrong. Punic even means literally Phoenician. Punic language, art etc come from Phoenicians. Carthaginians were Phoenicians, mixed at some degree with North Africans. Saying they were just nas is a great lie.

[SharpFork]

He's not wrong, you know? Most of the Punic speakers of North Africa were local Berbers and so on.
No we don't have enough evidence of that yet, if we used the Punic samples from Sardinia or Ibiza we would think Phonicians were very West Asian admixed, that's what the evidence we have right now shows but it's not conclusive.

[Samnium]

Iberians and North Italians have the same or close latitudes only if we are talking about blood, on geography North Italy is way North.

genetical latitude, I haven't precised, my bad

[SharpFork]

He is very wrong. Punic even means literally Phoenician. Punic language, art etc come from Phoenicians. Carthaginians were Phoenicians, mixed at some degree with North Africans. Saying they were just nas is a great lie.

For one time I agree with you, although I find ironic you and Nassbean try to disprove each other's "purity" without noticing the clear double standards...

[Bosniensis]

The immense North African cultural legacy in Spain = the Alhambra :lol: that is all the immense legacy, it is hilarious :laugh2:

Noone in the world history was more advanced then North Africans.

Ancient Egypt even today has more mysteries surrounding it's technology than any other ancient civilization.

And yes they were E1b1 like today (proven by pharaoh dna)

Northern Africans (Those Black people) were technological marvel in ancient history.

[Nassbean]

No we don't have enough evidence of that yet, if we used the Punic samples from Sardinia or Ibiza we would think Phonicians were very West Asian admixed, that's what the evidence we have right now shows but it's not conclusive.

that's simply not true :

"Beyond our focal interest in Sardinia, the results from individuals from the Phoenician-Punic sites Monte Sirai and Villamar shed some light on the ancestry of a historically impactful Mediterranean population. Notably, they show strong genetic relationships to ancient North-African and eastern Mediterranean sources. These results mirror other emerging ancient DNA studies37,58, and are not unexpected given that the Punic center of Carthage on the North-African coast itself has roots in the eastern Mediterranean. Interestingly, the Monte Sirai individuals, predating the Villamar individuals by several centuries, show less North-African ancestry. This could be because they harbor earlier Phoenician ancestry and North-African admixture may have been unique to the later Punic context, or because they were individuals from a different ancestral background altogether. Estimated North-African admixture fractions were much lower in later ancient individuals and present-day Sardinian individuals, in line with previous studies that have observed small but significant African admixture in several present-day South European populations, including Sardinia"

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec9


"The Ibiza Phoenician individual published in 50 232 is not consistent with forming a clade with any of the Bronze233 Age individuals from the Balaeric islands newly reported in this study, and indeed we find that she234 can not be modeled even with our least parsimonious model of 4 distal sources. However, when we235 add in a North African source of ancestry, we can fit her as a two-way mix of 18.8 ± 7.9%236 Anatolia_Neolithic and 81.2 ± 7.9% Morocco_LN ancestry (p=0.141) (Supplementary Materials). We237 also can fit the Ibiza Phoenician as two-way mixture of a variety of groups closer to her in time one238 of which is always Morocco_LN. While several of these models include a Balaeric Island Bronze Age239 source, we cannot rule out the possibility that the Ibiza Phoenician individual has no local Balaeric240 ancestry at all. Specifically, we find that we can fit her with models that do not have a Balaeric241 source and that instead have Balaeric Bronze Age individuals in the outgroups (e.g. (e.g. 17.1 ±242 3.5% France_Bell_Beaker and 82.9 ± 3.5% Morocco_LN, p=0.869) (Supplementary Table 11)."

"All six individuals from the Punic Villamar site were inferred to have substantial levels of ancient North-African ancestry (point estimates ranging 20–35%, Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE and PCA results, Figs. 2 and 4). When fit with the same five-way admixture model, present-day Sardinians have a small but detectable level of North-African ancestry (Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE analysis, Fig. 4)." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec2


"In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8th to 12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African–related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D)." https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

here for example the result of one of the punic-sardinian individual :

Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
Distance: 2.8765% / 0.02876507
54.6 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
30.2 Sardinian
9.6 Yemenite_Mahra
2.2 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.8 Spanish_La_Rioja
1.0 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.6 Nganassan

his distances :

Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
0.07275738 Moroccan_North
0.07776363 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.08748593 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.08757873 Moroccan_Jew
0.08858849 Libyan_Jew
0.08907660 Tunisian_Jew
0.09417202 Tunisian
0.10339761 Libyan
0.10499990 Maltese
0.10611097 Spanish_Canarias
0.10622109 Egyptian
0.10639530 Italian_Jew
0.10655342 Mozabite
0.10802312 Sephardic_Jew
0.10855307 Algerian
0.10898499 BedouinA
0.10984282 Romaniote_Jew
0.11006880 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.11155151 Palestinian
0.11303150 Jordanian
0.11617327 Sicilian_West
0.11666601 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.11788437 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.11866220 Syrian_Jew
0.11906327 Ashkenazi_Lithuania

[Nassbean]

He is very wrong. Punic even means literally Phoenician. Punic language, art etc come from Phoenicians. Carthaginians were Phoenicians, mixed at some degree with North Africans. Saying they were just nas is a great lie.

no one said that their culture was a born in North africa :picard1: but they were genetically similar to modern north africans ..the same way most NAs are berber genetically but culturally arabized.


Also it should be reminded that even modern tunisians have a decent amount of levantine ancestry (more in average than algerians and moroccans)

[SharpFork]

that's simply not true :

"Beyond our focal interest in Sardinia, the results from individuals from the Phoenician-Punic sites Monte Sirai and Villamar shed some light on the ancestry of a historically impactful Mediterranean population. Notably, they show strong genetic relationships to ancient North-African and eastern Mediterranean sources.
This literally mentions eastern Mediterranean there, it proves my point.


These results mirror other emerging ancient DNA studies37,58, and are not unexpected given that the Punic center of Carthage on the North-African coast itself has roots in the eastern Mediterranean.
Again, confirms historical and linguistic evidence.


This could be because they harbor earlier Phoenician ancestry and North-African admixture may have been unique to the later Punic context,
Yes, later Carthaginian settlers were more mixed with North Africans, nothing surprising.


"The Ibiza Phoenician individual published in 50 232 is not consistent with forming a clade with any of the Bronze233 Age individuals from the Balaeric islands newly reported in this study, and indeed we find that she234 can not be modeled even with our least parsimonious model of 4 distal sources. However, when we235 add in a North African source of ancestry, we can fit her as a two-way mix of 18.8 ± 7.9%236 Anatolia_Neolithic and 81.2 ± 7.9% Morocco_LN ancestry (p=0.141) (Supplementary Materials). We237 also can fit the Ibiza Phoenician as two-way mixture of a variety of groups closer to her in time one238 of which is always Morocco_LN. While several of these models include a Balaeric Island Bronze Age239 source, we cannot rule out the possibility that the Ibiza Phoenician individual has no local Balaeric240 ancestry at all. Specifically, we find that we can fit her with models that do not have a Balaeric241 source and that instead have Balaeric Bronze Age individuals in the outgroups (e.g. (e.g. 17.1 ±242 3.5% France_Bell_Beaker and 82.9 ± 3.5% Morocco_LN, p=0.869) (Supplementary Table 11)."
Marocco_LN is very different from modern or other ancient north african samples and it's anachronistic to the period in question.
The shortest distance in G25 is 0.09, there is 0 reason to believe it makes sense to use it as a source population. Find me any actual modern or ancient population that looks like them.



"All six individuals from the Punic Villamar site were inferred to have substantial levels of ancient North-African ancestry (point estimates ranging 20–35%, Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE and PCA results, Figs. 2 and 4). When fit with the same five-way admixture model, present-day Sardinians have a small but detectable level of North-African ancestry (Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE analysis, Fig. 4)." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec2[/QUOTE]
Their admixuture graph literally shows that there is extra West Asian ancestry, it's not a pure North African admixture:

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-14523-6/MediaObjects/41467_2020_14523_Fig4_HTML.png?as=webp


here for example the result of one of the punic-sardinian individual :

Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
Distance: 2.8765% / 0.02876507
54.6 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
30.2 Sardinian
9.6 Yemenite_Mahra
2.2 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.8 Spanish_La_Rioja
1.0 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.6 Nganassan

his distances :

Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
0.07275738 Moroccan_North
0.07776363 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.08748593 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.08757873 Moroccan_Jew
0.08858849 Libyan_Jew
0.08907660 Tunisian_Jew
0.09417202 Tunisian
0.10339761 Libyan
0.10499990 Maltese
0.10611097 Spanish_Canarias
0.10622109 Egyptian
0.10639530 Italian_Jew
0.10655342 Mozabite
0.10802312 Sephardic_Jew
0.10855307 Algerian
0.10898499 BedouinA
0.10984282 Romaniote_Jew
0.11006880 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.11155151 Palestinian
0.11303150 Jordanian
0.11617327 Sicilian_West
0.11666601 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.11788437 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.11866220 Syrian_Jew
0.11906327 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Why are you cherrypicking samples? Just take the average:



Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic
0.06166122 Maltese
0.06208706 Moroccan_Jew
0.06556581 Sicilian_West
0.06605695 Italian_Jew
0.06692944 Spanish_Canarias
0.06889710 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.07001160 Sicilian_East
0.07110097 Tunisian_Jew
0.07131883 Sardinian
0.07154255 Italian_Lazio
0.07157883 Sephardic_Jew
0.07173148 Libyan_Jew
0.07190384 French_Corsica
0.07207081 Italian_Campania
0.07280998 Italian_Calabria
0.07411863 Italian_Apulia
0.07443830 Romaniote_Jew
0.07474487 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.07501671 Italian_Basilicata
0.07554087 Italian_Abruzzo
0.07563742 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.07713499 Italian_Umbria
0.07782212 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.07827643 Italian_Marche
0.07881602 Ashkenazi_Russia

Maltese are not genetically North African, also only 1 out of the 4 Villamar samples is North African, 2 of the 4 Villamar and the total average are like North African Jews, clearly indicating a West Asian and North African mix. The 2 Monte Sinai samples are Sicilian like, clearly indicating a mostly West Asian and Euro

Also this is how the samples look:

https://i.imgur.com/m3DXneC.png

Ibiza Punic is closer to Lebanese than it is to Tunisians.

[SharpFork]

no one said that their culture was a born in North africa :picard1: but they were genetically similar to modern north africans ..the same way most NAs are berber genetically but culturally arabized.


Also it should be reminded that even modern tunisians have a decent amount of levantine ancestry (more in average than algerians and moroccans)

What the fuck is this logic? Modern Andalusians and Canarians are similar to Basques or Northern French people, this doesn't mean they have no North African ancestry.
C'mon man, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't accept such logic from people claiming that Iberians don't have North African ancestry.

[Damião de Góis]

Modern Basque are virtually identical to Iron Age Iberians.

People have been saying that since that study came out, but Iron Age Iberia had several different peoples who spoke different languages and they didn't form part of the Olalde study's iron age samples.

Iberia in 200BC:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

The iron age samples of that study seem to be all from the northeast:

https://i.imgur.com/4oglTUK.jpg

So i think people are jumping into broad conclusions with only a little piece of information.

[Luso]

People have been saying that since that study came out, but Iron Age Iberia had several different peoples who spoke different languages and they didn't form part of the Olalde study's iron age samples.

Iberia in 200BC:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

The iron age samples of that study seem to be all from the northeast:

https://i.imgur.com/4oglTUK.jpg

So i think people are jumping into broad conclusions with only a little piece of information.

Yeah, good point. My ancestors were probably conii interestingly.

[Nassbean]

This literally mentions eastern Mediterranean there, it proves my point.

Yes because they also talk about the mount sirai samples who were phoenician settlers not carthaginians.



Again, confirms historical and linguistic evidence.

Yes carthage was founded by phoenician settlers who denied this ?



Yes, later Carthaginian settlers were more mixed with North Africans, nothing surprising.

Not really the villamar samples show mainly north african-sardinian mix the levantine component is quite negligeable



Marocco_LN is very different from modern or other ancient north african samples and it's anachronistic to the period in question.
The shortest distance in G25 is 0.09, there is 0 reason to believe it makes sense to use it as a source population. Find me any actual modern or ancient population that looks like them.

Morocco_LN is halfway between modern NAs and europeans you just have to split it in two if you want to have a good idea ;)



https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec2
Their admixuture graph literally shows that there is extra West Asian ancestry, it's not a pure North African admixture:

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-020-14523-6/MediaObjects/41467_2020_14523_Fig4_HTML.png?as=webp

not all of them :

Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL006
Distance: 2.9421% / 0.02942112
40.2 Sardinian
19.0 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
14.4 Berber_MAR_TIZ
10.8 Spanish_La_Rioja
10.0 BedouinB
5.6 Sorb_Niederlausitz


Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL007
Distance: 2.4835% / 0.02483503
49.8 Sardinian
17.6 Mozabite
10.8 Italian_Jew
6.6 Yemenite_Jew
6.4 Karaite_Egypt
3.2 Samaritan
2.2 Spanish_Asturias
1.6 Berber_MAR_TIZ
1.2 Mari
0.4 Kosipe
0.2 Fulani



this one yes :

Target: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL010
Distance: 3.3803% / 0.03380305
42.2 Sardinian
28.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
21.8 Berber_MAR_TIZ
2.2 Eritrean
2.2 Yemenite_Mahra
1.6 Yemenite_Dhamar
1.0 BedouinB
0.4 Biaka



Why are you cherrypicking samples? Just take the average:



Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic
0.06166122 Maltese
0.06208706 Moroccan_Jew
0.06556581 Sicilian_West
0.06605695 Italian_Jew
0.06692944 Spanish_Canarias
0.06889710 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.07001160 Sicilian_East
0.07110097 Tunisian_Jew
0.07131883 Sardinian
0.07154255 Italian_Lazio
0.07157883 Sephardic_Jew
0.07173148 Libyan_Jew
0.07190384 French_Corsica
0.07207081 Italian_Campania
0.07280998 Italian_Calabria
0.07411863 Italian_Apulia
0.07443830 Romaniote_Jew
0.07474487 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.07501671 Italian_Basilicata
0.07554087 Italian_Abruzzo
0.07563742 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.07713499 Italian_Umbria
0.07782212 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.07827643 Italian_Marche


that means nothing because they were heavily mixed with the local sardinian population ...:picard1:


Maltese are not genetically North African, also only 1 out of the 4 Villamar samples is North African, 2 of the 4 Villamar and the total average are like North African Jews, clearly indicating a West Asian and North African mix. The 2 Monte Sinai samples are Sicilian like, clearly indicating a mostly West Asian and Euro

Also this is how the samples look:

https://i.imgur.com/m3DXneC.png

Ibiza Punic is closer to Lebanese than it is to Tunisians.

You're dishonest simply because mount sirai was clearly not colonized by carthaginians but directly by phoenicians. Moreover the ORC002 is a local sardinian he has nothing to do with carthaginians. But what we clearly see is the sudden apparition of NA admixture in the villamar samples ....a coincidence ? Certainly not. Also distances here are meaningless because no north africans score such high amount of sardinian ancestry...

[Nassbean]

What the fuck is this logic? Modern Andalusians and Canarians are similar to Basques or Northern French people, this doesn't mean they have no North African ancestry.
C'mon man, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't accept such logic from people claiming that Iberians don't have North African ancestry.

My point is that carthaginians were mainly north african with a punic/semitic culture I'm not denying that they could have had levantine admixture ...you misunderstood me it seems.


Also is it a coincidence that the exact part of iberia who was under carthage's rule show this kind of genetic pool :

"In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8th to 12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African–related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D)."

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

probably just a coincidence :rolleyes: Also a coincidence that western sicilians are closer to NAs than the eastern ones ...

[Mingle]

I've never seen anyone argue modern Iberians are 25-40% Moorish. That's a strawman. The argument is whether they have minor Moorish admixture or 0 Moorish admixture. Based on the fact that the modern Iberians don't cluster with the Iron Age ones, it seems like they did receive minor admixture from Moors.

He even states it himself later:

All I can say is that as of now it seems North African ancestry from Moors in present-day Iberians is roughly within a range of 0-10%. I'm not sure about the average, it could be 1%, 5%, 3%, 8%, idk."

[Luso]

I've never seen anyone argue modern Iberians are 25-40% Moorish. That's a strawman. The argument is whether they have minor Moorish admixture or 0 Moorish admixture. Based on the fact that the modern Iberians don't cluster with the Iron Age ones, it seems like they did have minor admixture.

He even states it himself later:

There are people out there-- mostly trolls though. The estimation for modern-day is 0-10% but I would estimate most is from pre-moorish conflict, in other words... A N C I E N T.

[Nassbean]

I've never seen anyone argue modern Iberians are 25-40% Moorish. That's a strawman. The argument is whether they have minor Moorish admixture or 0 Moorish admixture. Based on the fact that the modern Iberians don't cluster with the Iron Age ones, it seems like they did have minor admixture.

He even states it himself later:

the average for spain is 5% and for portugal (based on what I saw) 8-9% :


The researchers also analyzed two individuals of Visigothic origin at a site in Girona and several of Muslim origin in Granada, Valencia, Castellón and Vinaròs. These ‘ancient Iberians’ showed a North African genetic component of almost 50%, while in the current population it is 5%. “This North African ancestry was almost completely eliminated during the Reconquista and the subsequent expulsion of the Moors”, says Carles Lalueza-Fox, one of the directors of the study at the IBE.

(https://ellipse.prbb.org/reconstructing-the-genetic-map-of-the-last-8000-years-in-the-iberian-peninsula/?fbclid=IwAR1HddH7i6DSciQLhuEjTjAjL9UQZZ40smvVGXz3 PPl2hNRRmzzOBFb2i-k)

[Cristiano viejo]

Noone in the world history was more advanced then North Africans.


Seriously boy, leave this topic, you know nothing. Your crazy theories make me laugh when you involve Turks, Greeks, Illirians and these shits. But enough is enough. North Africans advanced, lol... that is why Arabs conquered them SUPER EASILY and Arabized them until the bones, "because North Africans were more advanced than the rest of the world", lulz!

[Damião de Góis]

the average for spain is 5% and for portugal (based on what I saw) 8-9% :


(https://ellipse.prbb.org/reconstructing-the-genetic-map-of-the-last-8000-years-in-the-iberian-peninsula/?fbclid=IwAR1HddH7i6DSciQLhuEjTjAjL9UQZZ40smvVGXz3 PPl2hNRRmzzOBFb2i-k)

Is that number from any calculator? Which one?

[Nassbean]

Seriously boy, leave this topic, you know nothing. Your crazy theories make me laugh when you involve Turks, Greeks, Illirians and these shits. But enough is enough. North Africans advanced, lol... that is why Arabs conquered them SUPER EASILY and Arabized them until the bones, "because North Africans were more advanced than the rest of the world", lulz!

arabs never conquered the maghreb even uqba ibn nafi one of their most important general was killed by a berber prince. They later succeeded to invade the maghreb thanks to their libyan troops who converted to Islam ...Maghrebis became arabized way later during the Hilalian invasions They absorbed and integrated those arabs into their societies and because of the prestige of Islam and arab lineages this process was not interrupted

[Nassbean]

Is that number from any calculator? Which one?

which one ?

[Cristiano viejo]

arabs never conquered the maghreb even uqba ibn nafi one of their most important general was killed by a berber prince. They later succeeded to invade the maghreb thanks to their libyan troops who converted to Islam ...Maghrebis became arabized way later during the Hilalian invasions They absorbed and integrated those arabs into their societies and because of the prestige of Islam and arab lineages this process was not interrupted

I dont care when, what matters is that happened. When Arabs invaded the Iberian peninsula North Africans already were their vassals.

[Damião de Góis]

which one ?

Yes, if it's from a calculator i would like to know which one it is to check it out.

[Nassbean]

I dont care when, what matters is that happened. When Arabs invaded the Iberian peninsula North Africans already were their vassals.

arabs never invaded Iberia the soldiers were north africans from north morocco even their general Tariq ibn ziyad was berber

that's why old documents says "moros" :

https://i.imgur.com/CMXhkhg.jpg

[Nassbean]

Yes, if it's from a calculator i would like to know which one it is to check it out.

no I mean which number are you talking about 5% or 8% ?

[Cristiano viejo]

arabs never invaded Iberia the soldiers were north africans from north morocco even their general Tariq ibn ziyad was berber

that's why old documents says "moros" :

hahaha, ok :rolleyes:

[Damião de Góis]

no I mean which number are you talking about 5% or 8% ?

I thought those numbers all came from one specific calculator. So i was asking about the calculator, not the numbers.

[Rocinante]

Yes, if it's from a calculator i would like to know which one it is to check it out.

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 3.4369% / 0.03436876
51.6 EEF
32.0 Yamnaya
10.8 WHG
5.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 2.7738% / 0.02773841
53.8 ANF
29.4 Afanasievo
11.4 WHG
5.4 Iberomaurusian

In my partial and complete model, the average of portuguese is 5~6% iberomaurusian. For sure there is people with 9%, but people with 0% too.

[Kamal900]

He is very wrong. Punic even means literally Phoenician. Punic language, art etc come from Phoenicians. Carthaginians were Phoenicians, mixed at some degree with North Africans. Saying they were just nas is a great lie.

Not really. I mean, yes, the Punic language was brought by the Phoenicians, but we're talking about genetics here, and it's shows that the Punic speakers of North Africans were largely of Berber origins. It's the same way why the Maghrebi Arabs for example are genetically very close to Berbers since they came from Berbers themselves before they got Arabized with little admixture here and there.

[Nassbean]

I thought those numbers all came from one specific calculator. So i was asking about the calculator, not the numbers.

no the 5% comes from the study I posted and for portugal I clearly stated that it was based on my own observation maybe I'm wrong

[Nassbean]

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 3.4369% / 0.03436876
51.6 EEF
32.0 Yamnaya
10.8 WHG
5.6 Iberomaurusian

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 2.7738% / 0.02773841
53.8 ANF
29.4 Afanasievo
11.4 WHG
5.4 Iberomaurusian

In my partial and complete model, the average of portuguese is 5~6% iberomaurusian. For sure there is people with 9%, but people with 0% too.

north africans don't only have iberomaurusian only 1/3 of their dna is iberomaurusian so these samples have more NA than just 5

[Nassbean]

Not really. I mean, yes, the Punic language was brought by the Phoenicians, but we're talking about genetics here, and it's shows that the Punic speakers of North Africans were largely of Berber origins. It's the same way why the Maghrebi Arabs for example are genetically very close to Berbers since they came from Berbers themselves before they got Arabized with little admixture here and there.

he's just a hater who spit on North africans everytime he can he doesn't care about studies nor does he understand them

[Cristiano viejo]

Not really. I mean, yes, the Punic language was brought by the Phoenicians, but we're talking about genetics here, and it's shows that the Punic speakers of North Africans were largely of Berber origins. It's the same way why the Maghrebi Arabs for example are genetically very close to Berbers since they came from Berbers themselves before they got Arabized with little admixture here and there.

Zero sense. Where did the Phoenician blood go then? under the sand of the desert? :rolleyes:

[Kamal900]

he's just a hater who spit on North africans everytime he can he doesn't care about studies nor does he understand them

He's a funny troll, and his funny reactions is the main reason why some members here like to troll him.

[Kamal900]

Zero sense. Where did the Phoenician blood go then? under the sand of the desert? :rolleyes:

You're conflating language with ethnicity, rofl. Yes, the Phoenicians did brought the language to the Maghreb the same way that the Romans of Italy brought the Latin language to Iberia which the Iberian Romance languages descend from, but the genetic contribution is minimum at best similar to the Arabization of the Maghreb.

[Nassbean]

He's a funny troll, and his funny reactions is the main reason why some members here like to troll him.

exactly we just play with him he's a big joke to us

[Cristiano viejo]

he's just a hater who spit on North africans everytime he can he doesn't care about studies nor does he understand them

It is you who is obsessed with us (you show it bumping dozens of threads about swarthy Spaniards, you never bump threads about regular Spaniards, let alone light ones) and it is you who does not understand it. Claiming Iberians natives were e1b1 and J is hilarious to say the least.

[Nassbean]

You're conflating language with ethnicity, rofl. Yes, the Phoenicians did brought the language to the Maghreb the same way that the Romans of Italy brought the Latin language to Iberia which the Iberian Romance languages descend from, but the genetic contribution is minimum at best similar to the Arabization of the Maghreb.

it's not as if tunisians didn't have any levantine admixture ...haha he's just ignorant

[Kamal900]

Claiming Iberians natives were e1b1 and J is hilarious to say the least.

The neolithic Iberians were before they got cucked by the Bell Beaker culture when they killed most of the men and intermarried with the women.

[Rocinante]

north africans don't only have iberomaurusian only 1/3 of their dna is iberomaurusian so these samples have more NA than just 5

NA have iberomaurussian, EEF, natufian and a SSA (% vary from north to south), and spaniards only get the iberomaurusian, no SSA or Natufian. If some of the EEF/ANF comes from NA, well, that is a components that peaks in europeans.

[Nassbean]

It is you who is obsessed with us (you show it bumping dozens of threads about swarthy Spaniards, you never bump threads about regular Spaniards, let alone light ones) and it is you who does not understand it. Claiming Iberians natives were e1b1 and J is hilarious to say the least.

sure If I don't post nordic looking spaniards you will say "too dark". And two spanish members here are not r1b ...they are still iberian genetically and that's what you don't understand. There are plenty of north africans with r1b it doesn't make them european :picard1: Again continue trolling because serious scientific subjects are not for you gringo

[Nassbean]

NA have iberomaurussian, EEF, natufian and a SSA (% vary from north to south), and spaniards only get the iberomaurusian, no SSA or Natufian. If some of the EEF/ANF comes from NA, well, that is a components that peaks in europeans.

That doesn't make sense I have almost no natufian and my ssa is extremely low so of course it won't appear among mixed people ..That the EEF peaks among europeans is irrelevant it's still partially from a north african contribution it doesn't make sense to only focus on 1/3 of our dna. With that logic iberians received no contribution from italy for example ... :picard1:

[XenophobicPrussian]

You're conflating language with ethnicity, rofl. Yes, the Phoenicians did brought the language to the Maghreb the same way that the Romans of Italy brought the Latin language to Iberia which the Iberian Romance languages descend from, but the genetic contribution is minimum at best similar to the Arabization of the Maghreb.
Iberians actually have significant Roman admixture. :) Something like 15-20%. As do French, Swiss/Austrians, people along the Rhine, Balkanites(although the latter 3 have far less). Notice how Iberians on a PCA aren't right inbetween North Africans and Iron Age/BA Iberians on a PCA but are also shifted a bit east to Italy and the east Med. Not only autosomally speaking but East Med/Roman Y-DNA is also very evident in these regions as well. Where language came without significant genetic input are the rare exceptions(i.e Hungary and Finland). Not sure about the Maghreb and Phoenicians though.

[Kamal900]

Iberians actually have significant Roman admixture. :) Something like 15-20%. As do French, Swiss/Austrians, people along the Rhine, Balkanites(although the latter 3 have far less). Notice how Iberians on a PCA aren't right inbetween North Africans and Iron Age/BA Iberians on a PCA but are also shifted a bit east to Italy and the east Med. Not only autosomally speaking but East Med/Roman Y-DNA is also very evident in these regions as well. Where language came without significant genetic input are the rare exceptions(i.e Hungary and Finland). Not sure about the Maghreb and Phoenicians though.

What about their Germanic admixture? I've head it's around 10% or something.

[Rocinante]

That doesn't make sense I have almost no natufian and my ssa is extremely low so of course it won't appear among mixed people ..That the EEF peaks among europeans is irrelevant it's still partially from a north african contribution it doesn't make sense to only focus on 1/3 of our dna. With that logic iberians received no contribution from italy for example ... :picard1:

Target: Moroccan_South
Distance: 2.1064% / 0.02106441
31.0 Iberomaurusian
28.6 EEF
26.6 SSA
7.0 Natufian
5.8 Yamnaya
0.6 CHG
0.4 WHG

Target: Moroccan_North
Distance: 2.2511% / 0.02251079
39.6 EEF
28.4 Iberomaurusian
10.4 Natufian
9.0 Yamnaya
6.6 SSA
2.4 CHG
2.2 WHG
1.4 Iran_Neolithic

Even south moroccans have more of iberomaurusian, i think that EEF and that YAMNAYA+WHG comes from mixing with iberians, also this proves that little % always show.

[Nassbean]

Iberians actually have significant Roman admixture. :) Something like 15-20%. As do French, Swiss/Austrians, people along the Rhine, Balkanites(although the latter 3 have far less). Notice how Iberians on a PCA aren't right inbetween North Africans and Iron Age/BA Iberians on a PCA but are also shifted a bit east to Italy and the east Med. Not only autosomally speaking but East Med/Roman Y-DNA is also very evident in these regions as well. Where language came without significant genetic input are the rare exceptions(i.e Hungary and Finland). Not sure about the Maghreb and Phoenicians though.

Tunisians have a decent amount of levantine ancestry too but you can't really compare Rome to Carthage simply because carthage never controlled inland areas and was relying on its coastal cities

[Cristiano viejo]

You're conflating language with ethnicity, rofl. Yes, the Phoenicians did brought the language to the Maghreb the same way that the Romans of Italy brought the Latin language to Iberia which the Iberian Romance languages descend from, but the genetic contribution is minimum at best similar to the Arabization of the Maghreb.

Stop talking me about their fuckin semitic language, I dont care about that. Ask my question: where the fuck the Phoenician blood went? under the sand of the desert, or where?

[Nassbean]

Stop talking me about their fuckin semitic language, I dont care about that. Ask my question: where the fuck the Phoenician blood went? under the sand of the desert, or where?

it's still there ...also phoenicians were not numerous. You said arabs invaded and submitted north africans where is all that arab blood ? :rolleyes:

[Kamal900]

Stop talking me about their fuckin semitic language, I dont care about that. Ask my question: where the fuck the Phoenician blood went? under the sand of the desert, or where?

Blood? Um, you should find it inside the trash bin full of tampons and so on. Now, comedy aside, the admixture wasn't great, and it was largely a cultural assimilation.

[Nassbean]

Target: Moroccan_South
Distance: 2.1064% / 0.02106441
31.0 Iberomaurusian
28.6 EEF
26.6 SSA
7.0 Natufian
5.8 Yamnaya
0.6 CHG
0.4 WHG

Target: Moroccan_North
Distance: 2.2511% / 0.02251079
39.6 EEF
28.4 Iberomaurusian
10.4 Natufian
9.0 Yamnaya
6.6 SSA
2.4 CHG
2.2 WHG
1.4 Iran_Neolithic

Even south moroccans have more of iberomaurusian, i think that EEF and that YAMNAYA+WHG comes from mixing with iberians, also this proves that little % always show.

so now north africans are reduced to iberomaurusian ...so with your logic my future children with my spanish woman will be almost fully iberian ? LOL Come on bro

[Rocinante]

it's still there ...also phoenicians were not numerous. You said arabs invaded and submitted north africans where is all that arab blood ? :rolleyes:

if we care a lot about that ~5% of iberomaurusian in iberians, why not the ~10% of natufian in north africans? Just asking.

[Mingle]

There are people out there-- mostly trolls though. The estimation for modern-day is 0-10% but I would estimate most is from pre-moorish conflict, in other words... A N C I E N T.

They clearly got a bit of extra North African DNA post-Iron Age based on the PCA.

[Nassbean]

if we care a lot about that ~5% of iberomaurusian in iberians, why not the ~10% of natufian in north africans? Just asking.

because ancient north africans already had this natufian component just saying ...

[Rocinante]

because ancient north africans already had this natufian component just saying ...

Okay, i didn´t know that. But this proves me one thing, that the islamic invation did no change in the iberian gene pool, or almost nothing.

[Nassbean]

Okay, i didn´t know that. But this proves me one thing, that the islamic invation did no change in the iberian gene pool, or almost nothing.

well arabs were a tiny minority I doubt they could have impacted Iberia genetically while studies clearly show that the moorish invasions brought more NA admixture

[Luso]

They clearly got a bit of extra North African DNA post-Iron Age based on the PCA.

Based on the current ancient samples from the North and East, yes. But not a lot.

[XenophobicPrussian]

What about their Germanic admixture? I've head it's around 10% or something.
Nah 10 would be too high, especially for the whole of Spain. It also depends on the region, some will have none(like the South-East or North), Catalonia has the most with around 10, while regions like the NW will get up to 7-8%.

model:

ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039 792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114 665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075
Mozabite,-0.0649782,0.135551,-0.0032793,-0.0717622,0.0260249,-0.0328364,-0.0260656,0.0108257,0.0617306,0.0303463,0.0065097,-0.006366,0.021795,-0.0165685,0.0163159,-0.016176,-0.0027097,-0.0219282,-0.0435571,0.0082757,-0.0146263,-0.0367947,0.0246817,-0.0042277,0.0056594
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,0.1069937,0.1486057,-0.0248897,-0.0551253,0.0057443,-0.016083,-0.0018017,-0.003769,0.0008863,0.0154293,0.007091,0.0059443,-0.008325,0.000642,-0.0068313,-0.0010607,0.008388,-0.001098,0.004483,0.0007087,-0.001539,0.002267,0.0031223,0.0018077,0.0015967
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1,0.1277665,0.13862,0.054 588,0.0276165,0.041931,0.006554,0.0013512,0.003230 8,0.0199922,0.0261052,-0.0034912,0.0079805,-0.0198088,-0.0204372,0.0130632,0.0071268,0.0079535,0.0024072, 0.0036768,0.0012195,0.007362,0.002875,-0.0036052,-0.0004217,0.003862
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246

(East-Central)

Target: Spanish_Castello
Distance: 0.8778% / 0.00877779
36.8 Iberia_East_IA
32.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
14.6 Iberia_North_IA
14.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
2.2 Mozabite

(East-Central)

Target: Spanish_Valencia
Distance: 1.0087% / 0.01008729
50.0 Iberia_North_IA
18.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
17.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
10.6 Iberia_East_IA
3.6 Mozabite




(North)

Target: Spanish_Aragon
Distance: 1.4420% / 0.01442045
43.0 Iberia_North_IA
19.8 Iberia_East_IA
18.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
16.0 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
3.0 Mozabite


(Central)

Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
Distance: 1.1097% / 0.01109724
48.6 Iberia_North_IA
20.0 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
14.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
13.0 Iberia_East_IA
4.0 Mozabite

(North-West)

Target: Spanish_Asturias
Distance: 2.5650% / 0.02565014
74.0 Iberia_North_IA
10.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
8.8 Mozabite
7.0 DEU_MA


(Central West bordering Portugal)

Target: Spanish_Extremadura
Distance: 1.3727% / 0.01372731
26.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
25.6 Iberia_North_IA
18.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
14.8 Iberia_East_IA
10.0 Mozabite
3.8 DEU_MA
1.0 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA


(North-West)

Target: Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
Distance: 1.3653% / 0.01365272
56.8 Iberia_North_IA
15.0 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
12.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
9.4 Mozabite
6.2 DEU_MA



Target: Spanish_Catalunya_Central
Distance: 1.0618% / 0.01061838
34.4 Iberia_East_IA
22.0 Iberia_North_IA
17.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
15.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
10.8 DEU_MA



Target: Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
Distance: 1.1025% / 0.01102549
37.2 Iberia_East_IA
18.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
15.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
14.8 Iberia_North_IA
12.8 DEU_MA
1.4 Mozabite
The capital of the Visigoths for a bit so not too surprising it has the most, plus Barcelona had a few French immigrants throughout history. Interesting it looks as though the Suebi had a bigger impact than the Visigoths on Spanish genetics, even though Visigoths held more land.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Iberia_455.svg/255px-Iberia_455.svg.png

For Spain overall it's probably around like 3-4%. 10% sounds more like what something like Central Italy or Tuscany would be.

As you can see Iberia doesn't have a lot of Germanic Y-DNA either:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Iberians changed after the north african apocalipse, before they were genetically west of France and now this people is west of North Italians, so there was some southern shift.

[Cristiano viejo]

Iberians changed after the north african apocalipse, before they were genetically west of France and now this people is west of North Italians, so there was some southern shift.

That would imply racial mix with muslims and That did not happen.

[Cristiano viejo]

Blood? Um, you should find it inside the trash bin full of tampons and so on. Now, comedy aside, the admixture wasn't great, and it was largely a cultural assimilation.
So all the Phoenicians disappear magically From North Africa... And do you say the admixture was not great?? :lol:

[mitalit]

Nah 10 would be too high, especially for the whole of Spain. It also depends on the region, some will have none(like the South-East or North), Catalonia has the most with around 10, while regions like the NW will get up to 7-8%.

model:


(East-Central)


(East-Central)




(North)



(Central)


(North-West)



(Central West bordering Portugal)



(North-West)






The capital of the Visigoths for a bit so not too surprising it has the most, plus Barcelona had a few French immigrants throughout history. Interesting it looks as though the Suebi had a bigger impact than the Visigoths on Spanish genetics, even though Visigoths held more land.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Iberia_455.svg/255px-Iberia_455.svg.png

For Spain overall it's probably around like 3-4%. 10% sounds more like what something like Central Italy or Tuscany would be.

As you can see Iberia doesn't have a lot of Germanic Y-DNA either:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

Cool, mine:
Target: Xabier_scaled
Distance: 2.1458% / 0.02145790
53.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
16.8 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
12.8 DEU_MA
9.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
7.2 Mozabite

[Damião de Góis]

I also tried, but i thought something was wrong:

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.3279% / 0.02327925
27.0 DEU_MA
24.4 Iberia_East_IA
21.2 Iberia_North_IA
18.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
8.0 Mozabite
1.0 Yoruba

[PT Tagus]

Target: PT_Tagus_scaled
Distance: 1.7866% / 0.01786617
55.2 Iberia_North_IA
23.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
10.2 Mozabite
9.2 DEU_MA
1.8 Yoruba



Distance to: PT_Tagus_scaled
0.06148783 Iberia_North_IA
0.06399787 Iberia_East_IA
0.06913366 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.07199948 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.09077524 DEU_MA
0.09507416 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.19589071 Mozabite
0.73040790 Yoruba

[mitalit]

I also tried, but i thought something was wrong:

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.3279% / 0.02327925
27.0 DEU_MA
24.4 Iberia_East_IA
21.2 Iberia_North_IA
18.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
8.0 Mozabite
1.0 Yoruba

I think they are scaled

[Damião de Góis]

I think they are scaled

Yeah i tried unscaled too:

Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.18249594 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.18310214 DEU_MA
0.18555960 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.19144374 Iberia_North_IA
0.19195857 Mozabite
0.19538647 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.19593245 Iberia_East_IA
0.64803058 Yoruba

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 11.6497% / 0.11649701
48.2 DEU_MA
32.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
14.6 Yoruba
5.0 Mozabite




Scaled distances seem right:

Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.05337126 Iberia_North_IA
0.05476354 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.05652045 Iberia_East_IA
0.07177309 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.07777121 DEU_MA
0.10188815 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.21091296 Mozabite
0.74111737 Yoruba

I wonder what Brás, Defcon or gixajo get.

[mitalit]

Yeah i tried unscaled too:

Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.18249594 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.18310214 DEU_MA
0.18555960 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.19144374 Iberia_North_IA
0.19195857 Mozabite
0.19538647 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.19593245 Iberia_East_IA
0.64803058 Yoruba

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 11.6497% / 0.11649701
48.2 DEU_MA
32.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
14.6 Yoruba
5.0 Mozabite




Scaled distances seem right:

Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.05337126 Iberia_North_IA
0.05476354 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.05652045 Iberia_East_IA
0.07177309 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.07777121 DEU_MA
0.10188815 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.21091296 Mozabite
0.74111737 Yoruba

I wonder what Brás, Defcon or gixajo get.

Very surprising.

[gixajo]

Nah 10 would be too high, especially for the whole of Spain. It also depends on the region, some will have none(like the South-East or North), Catalonia has the most with around 10, while regions like the NW will get up to 7-8%.

]

And mine:

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 1.8948% / 0.01894752
40.2 Iberia_North_IA
30.8 Iberia_East_IA
14.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
10.8 DEU_MA
2.4 Mozabite
1.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1

Distance to: gixajo_scaled
0.03325045 Iberia_North_IA
0.03483462 Iberia_East_IA
0.04225139 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.05556457 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.07737419 DEU_MA
0.11140776 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.22967140 Mozabite
0.76546303 Yoruba

I don´t remember have seen any Italian member g25 result...and French?

[SharpFork]

Iberians actually have significant Roman admixture. :) Something like 15-20%. As do French, Swiss/Austrians, people along the Rhine, Balkanites(although the latter 3 have far less). Notice how Iberians on a PCA aren't right inbetween North Africans and Iron Age/BA Iberians on a PCA but are also shifted a bit east to Italy and the east Med. Not only autosomally speaking but East Med/Roman Y-DNA is also very evident in these regions as well. Where language came without significant genetic input are the rare exceptions(i.e Hungary and Finland). Not sure about the Maghreb and Phoenicians though.
Can you isolate Phoneician and later Arab West Asian ancestry from Roman Imperial one? Also how much Y-DNA are we speaking of?

[XenophobicPrussian]

I also tried, but i thought something was wrong:

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 2.3279% / 0.02327925
27.0 DEU_MA
24.4 Iberia_East_IA
21.2 Iberia_North_IA
18.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
8.0 Mozabite
1.0 Yoruba


Target: PT_Tagus_scaled
Distance: 1.7866% / 0.01786617
55.2 Iberia_North_IA
23.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
10.2 Mozabite
9.2 DEU_MA
1.8 Yoruba



Distance to: PT_Tagus_scaled
0.06148783 Iberia_North_IA
0.06399787 Iberia_East_IA
0.06913366 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.07199948 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.09077524 DEU_MA
0.09507416 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.19589071 Mozabite
0.73040790 Yoruba
Portuguese average has even less. Are you guys northern Portuguese?


Target: Portuguese
Distance: 0.9536% / 0.00953586
35.0 Iberia_North_IA
27.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
18.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
10.0 Mozabite
8.4 Iberia_East_IA
1.4 DEU_MA


You brought this up before Damiao, it must be some sort of difference in the raw data from DNA companies and the data from the DNA database geneticists use. One or the other might have low SNP counts or something along those lines. Usually it's the raw data from users that have the weird noisy results rather than the genetic database averages.

And mine:

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 1.8948% / 0.01894752
40.2 Iberia_North_IA
30.8 Iberia_East_IA
14.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
10.8 DEU_MA
2.4 Mozabite
1.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1

Distance to: gixajo_scaled
0.03325045 Iberia_North_IA
0.03483462 Iberia_East_IA
0.04225139 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.05556457 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.07737419 DEU_MA
0.11140776 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.22967140 Mozabite
0.76546303 Yoruba

I don´t remember have seen any Italian member g25 result...and French?
What part of Spain?


Can you isolate Phoneician and later Arab West Asian ancestry from Roman Imperial one? Also how much Y-DNA are we speaking of?
Probably, while Imperial Romans would have sig. admixture from West Asians, they still would've been pretty far from them(basically South Italian vs Levant)so G25 should be able to pick up the differences, can't be sure though.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/85/b1/48/85b1484c7f2f3cd7a37c414962f0b3ee.jpg
The Y-DNA most associated with Italics, of course some of that will not actually be from Romans but from Celts(maybe even Beaker) since Italic and Celtic are so close and from the same exact area originally, but it gives you an idea.

J1 in Iberia is probably evenly split between Roman and North African sources(reminder that EEFs were near exclusively G2a, I2a and E-V13), J2, some clades of E1b and T are going to be mostly from Romans, especially T since it's almost completely absent from North Africa.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-T.gif

[Duffmannn]

The capital of the Visigoths for a bit so not too surprising it has the most, plus Barcelona had a few French immigrants throughout history.



Well, not exactly a bit, Catalonia was repopulated with occitans after the Black Pest in the XV-XVIII centuries.

According to studies, the marriage statistics of this age show that between a 15% and a 40% of the marriages involved occitans. Same applies in Aragon.

You have here a brief study of that inmigration in a locality, Barbastro: file:///C:/Users/suiza/Downloads/2166-4301-1-SM.pdf

Here one about the region of Barcelona (https://revistes.uab.cat/manuscrits/article/view/v34-amengual-pujadas/160-pdf-ca), that says:

a) 1481-1520: etapa en què els immigrants francesos apareixen esporàdicament, fins al primer ascens important. Es recullen 228 marits francesos
(1,4% del total).

b) 1521-1565: fase ascendent fins al moment en què les xifres arriben a percentatges gairebé sempre superiors al 20%, integrada per 1.704 marits
francesos (6,8%).

c) 1566-1610: el moment de màxima plenitud migratòria, en què s’arriben a
recollir 8.565 marits francesos (22,7%).

d) 1611-1643: fase en què les xifres de marits francesos comencen a disminuir i mostren una tendència sempre descendent. El nombre, en aquest
cas, és de 5.035 francesos (15,9%; this is the % of french marriages during this period)

D’aquesta manera, en el període complet, 1481-1643, les esposalles arriben a recollir fins a 15.532 matrimonis de marits francesos, nombre que suposa un
14,01% del total de matrimonis del període (a total 14% of the total marriages of the period were of french inmigrants)

[Rocinante]

Nah 10 would be too high, especially for the whole of Spain. It also depends on the region, some will have none(like the South-East or North), Catalonia has the most with around 10, while regions like the NW will get up to 7-8%.

model:


(East-Central)


(East-Central)




(North)



(Central)


(North-West)



(Central West bordering Portugal)



(North-West)






The capital of the Visigoths for a bit so not too surprising it has the most, plus Barcelona had a few French immigrants throughout history. Interesting it looks as though the Suebi had a bigger impact than the Visigoths on Spanish genetics, even though Visigoths held more land.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Iberia_455.svg/255px-Iberia_455.svg.png

For Spain overall it's probably around like 3-4%. 10% sounds more like what something like Central Italy or Tuscany would be.

As you can see Iberia doesn't have a lot of Germanic Y-DNA either:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

Distance: 2.5252% / 0.02525172
55.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
24.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
11.2 Mozabite
5.2 Iberia_East_IA
3.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

Why are you using the outlier sample of Collegno? Just asking.

[SharpFork]

Distance: 2.5252% / 0.02525172
55.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
24.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
11.2 Mozabite
5.2 Iberia_East_IA
3.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

Why are you using the outlier sample of Collegno? Just asking.

The outlier sample is pretty close to the Rome_Imperial sample, it's a Italic/East Med mix that should work for Spain.

[gixajo]

What part of Spain?


[/IMG]

Me? I was born and I live in Basque Country, Andalusian paternal side from Jaén and Basque maternal side from Álava.

[Defcon2]

Nah 10 would be too high, especially for the whole of Spain. It also depends on the region, some will have none(like the South-East or North), Catalonia has the most with around 10, while regions like the NW will get up to 7-8%.


Me:

Target: Juan_scaled
Distance: 3.1700% / 0.03170032
39.4 Iberia_North_IA
22.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
17.0 DEU_MA
13.0 Mozabite
7.8 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.2 Yoruba

[Cristiano viejo]

Me? I was born and I live in VASCONGADAS, Andalusian paternal side from Jaén and Basque maternal side from Álava.
Fixed.

[gixajo]

Fixed.

No veas lo que sufro...:coffee:

[Karol Klačansky]

so basically modern iberians are a perfect mix of iron age basque type iberians, romans, and celtic continental europeans. cool story bro.

[Cristiano viejo]

No veas lo que sufro...:coffee:

Jajajaja, me encanta tu nuevo username :lol:

[Tenma de Pegasus]

That would imply racial mix with muslims and That did not happen.

Not necessarely muslins, I believe the majority of this southern shift was due to settlement and mix with italians and other cientizens of the Roman Empire like greeks, some balkanics and anatolian greeks.

[Cristiano viejo]

Not necessarely muslins, I believe the biggest of this southern shift was due to settlement and mix with italians and other cientizens of the Roman Empire like greeks, some balkanics and anatolian greeks.

Your claim comes from the base that Iron Age Iberians were all the same, and I doubt this. In that graphic we can see even today there is an overlap between IAI and some current Iberians. It is possible that the analyzed IAI only were closed to certain current Spanish, but not to all.

[Kamal900]

So all the Phoenicians disappear magically From North Africa... And do you say the admixture was not great?? :lol:

It wasn't massive, and it was largely a cultural assimilation than anything. The same with the Arabs as well which you can see that the Maghrebi Arabs aren't genetically different from their Berber cousins.

[Cristiano viejo]

It wasn't massive, and it was largely a cultural assimilation than anything. The same with the Arabs as well which you can see that the Maghrebi Arabs aren't genetically different from their Berber cousins.

If it was not massive then you are saying still there are pure Phoenicians living in the north of Africa. It sounds nice to me :lightbul:

[Kamal900]

If it was not massive then you are saying still there are pure Phoenicians living in the north of Africa. It sounds nice to me :lightbul:

There isn't any, rofl. The "pure" ones were the ruling elite. The ones that adopted the Phoenician language and culture were the native Berbers which they mixed the native Berber cultures with the Phoenician one forging a new culture out of it. The same can be said about the Iberians as well which is based on native and foreign cultures of Europe and even North Africa to some extent.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Distance: 2.5252% / 0.02525172
55.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
24.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
11.2 Mozabite
5.2 Iberia_East_IA
3.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

Why are you using the outlier sample of Collegno? Just asking.
What Fork said, and to add onto that, the Collegno sample is homogenous, ala, they're all the same, while the Imperial Rome sample is extremely diverse ranging from anywhere to Iberian-clustering Republican Romans to Cypriot-like mixes, to full on MENA immigrants, even if the averages are close. The Collegno sample is pretty much after all the mixture had stabilized(dated to when the Langobards were in N. Italy, so very late), had the typical Italic Y-DNA R1b-U152, and was found everywhere from N. Italy, Roman colonists in Pannonia, Roman colonists in Iberia, etc.

The outlier sample is pretty close to the Rome_Imperial sample, it's a Italic/East Med mix that should work for Spain.
I actually thought it wasn't close, with Collegno_o1 clustering with Calabria/Crete and Imperial_Rome clustering with Cyprus, but you're right. Collegno still a bit more northern shifted but yeah.

Distance to: ImperialRoman:ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.01380535 Greek_Kos
0.01985693 Greek_Crete
0.02276868 Italian_Calabria
0.02403647 Italian_Campania
0.02612460 Cypriot

Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25
0.02330625 Greek_Kos
0.02833719 Greek_Crete
0.03142712 Italian_Calabria
0.03348566 Italian_Campania
0.03446854 Cypriot

Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30
0.02677308 Greek_Kos
0.02947393 Greek_Crete
0.03221123 Italian_Calabria
0.03261130 Italian_Campania
0.03571066 Italian_Basilicata

Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38
0.02601135 Greek_Kos
0.02884798 Italian_Calabria
0.03195194 Greek_Crete
0.03230910 Italian_Campania
0.03389086 Italian_Basilicata

[XenophobicPrussian]

Distance: 2.5252% / 0.02525172
55.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
24.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
11.2 Mozabite
5.2 Iberia_East_IA
3.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

Why are you using the outlier sample of Collegno? Just asking.
I'd be curious to know what DNA company you got your raw data from vs the other Iberian users. This and to a lesser extent Tagus' results seem normal while in the others Germanic is definitely way inflated.

[Defcon2]

I'd be curious to know what DNA company you got your raw data from vs the other Iberian users. This and to a lesser extent Tagus' results seem normal while in the others Germanic is definitely way inflated.

As a joke he have Italian ancestry, if the only normal results for an Iberian are his, we should be concerned.

He recently upgraded to the new Myheritage chip.

[gixajo]

Jajajaja, me encanta tu nuevo username :lol:

https://i.imgur.com/js4R36n.png

[mitalit]

As a joke he have Italian ancestry, if the only normal results for an Iberian are his, we should be concerned.

He recently upgraded to the new Myheritage chip.

:laugh:

[Cristiano viejo]

There isn't any, rofl. The "pure ones were the ruling elite. The ones that adopted the Phoenician language and culture were the native Berbers which they mixed the native Berber cultures with the Phoenician one forging a new culture out of it. The same can be said about the Iberians as well which is based on native and foreign cultures of Europe and even North Africa to some extent.

No no, Arab, don't put Spanish culture in this discussion, less even lying like a desert rat. Spanish culture has nothing to do with North Africa. What is North African in our culture? What a joke.

I don't care if Phoenicians were the elite or these who cleaned the shit of the camels, they did not disappear magically. It is more than evident that they mixed with North Africans. All of them. So saying Carthaginians were pure Berbers, or even simply Berbers, is another lie of you.

[Nassbean]

No no, Arab, don't put Spanish culture in this discussion, less even lying like a desert rat. Spanish culture has nothing to do with North Africa. What is North African in our culture? What a joke.

I don't care if Phoenicians were the elite or these who cleaned the shit of the camels, they did not disappear magically. It is more than evident that they mixed with North Africans. All of them. So saying Carthaginians were pure Berbers, or even simply Berbers, is another lie of you.

phoenicians came and took local women and their children mixed with other north africans for centuries what do you think you'll get after 3 or 4centuries ?? Arabs were way more numerous than phoenicians but their impact is still small and north africans are still mostly berber that was the same situation for carthage a unique city lost in a berber ocean.

[dududud]

It wasn't massive, and it was largely a cultural assimilation than anything. The same with the Arabs as well which you can see that the Maghrebi Arabs aren't genetically different from their Berber cousins.

I don't think the Phoenicians were so quick to mixed with other population, if they were they would not have existed for a long time.

[Cristiano viejo]

I don't think the Phoenicians were so quick to mixed with other population, if they were they would not have existed for a long time.

The elite does not mix with the plebe so easily.

[Rocinante]

I'd be curious to know what DNA company you got your raw data from vs the other Iberian users. This and to a lesser extent Tagus' results seem normal while in the others Germanic is definitely way inflated.

I'm a negro compared to the others iberians in this forum, i'm a 1/4 italian, i have MyHeritage GSA illumina chip, is almost the same as the 23andme. Could you explain to me every component of this calc? What is the celt, the germanic, the iberian, etc.

[Nassbean]

I don't think the Phoenicians were so quick to mixed with other population, if they were they would not have existed for a long time.

We're not talking about all phoenicians we're simply talking about the ones who settled in North africa Their number was small and they were mainly composed of men

[Nassbean]

The elite does not mix with the plebe so easily.

the elite mixed with the local north african elite for example Naravas and salammbô or Syphax and Sophonisba (Hannibal himself had an iberian wife)

[Samnium]

The elite does not mix with the plebe so easily.

In the phoenician case, yes. It's a historical truth.

[gixajo]

In the phoenician case, yes. It's a historical truth.

Better a commonly accepted fact, in determined stages of their existence.I don´t know if something like "Historical truth" ever existed.

And Carthage was founded by Phoenicians, but had it´s own personality, and every society changes through the times. Social uses do not remain immutable in any society as time goes by.

[Cristiano viejo]

the elite mixed with the local north african elite for example Naravas and salammbô or Syphax and Sophonisba (Hannibal himself had an iberian wife)
Hannibal himself was half Iberian. As I hace said, both of these women were the elite.


In the phoenician case, yes. It's a historical truth.

For sure they did not.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I'm a negro compared to the others iberians in this forum, i'm a 1/4 italian, i have MyHeritage GSA illumina chip, is almost the same as the 23andme. Could you explain to me every component of this calc? What is the celt, the germanic, the iberian, etc.
Iberia_IA/Empuires is the pre-Roman/North Africa/Germanic Iberian sample, although it's already mixed with Celt, clustering with Basques/S. French. Collegno_MA_o1 is Imperial Roman, clustering with Calabrians and Greek islanders. Rome_Latini is Republican Rome which clustered with N. Iberians. DEU_MA are dark ages Baiuvarii samples from Bavaria clustering between Frisians, Danish, Norwegian, Mozabite are the non-Euro admixed south Moroccans .

I said your results look more normal because most Iberians should be scoring no to very little Germanic like you, the others had way inflated amounts. In fact Sicilians should have more Germanic than Iberians based on Y-DNA and historic evidence.

[Rocinante]

Iberia_IA/Empuires is the pre-Roman/North Africa/Germanic Iberian sample, although it's already mixed with Celt, clustering with Basques/S. French. Collegno_MA_o1 is Imperial Roman, clustering with Calabrians and Greek islanders. Rome_Latini is Republican Rome which clustered with N. Iberians. DEU_MA are dark ages Baiuvarii samples from Bavaria clustering between Frisians, Danish, Norwegian, Mozabite are the non-Euro admixed south Moroccans .

I said your results look more normal because most Iberians should be scoring no to very little Germanic like you, the others had way inflated amounts. In fact Sicilians should have more Germanic than Iberians based on Y-DNA and historic evidence.

Well the truth is that my sicilian part seems to be atypical for the average sicilian, based on the G25 samples available. Good calc bro, though i like better using Paleo/Meso/Neolithic components, but this is a good one.

[SharpFork]

the elite mixed with the local north african elite for example Naravas and salammbô or Syphax and Sophonisba (Hannibal himself had an iberian wife)

In the phoenician case, yes. It's a historical truth.
At least the Carthaginian citizenship was super strict and made mixed marriages less likely, obviously whether this became the case before any intermixing had occured or that it prevent all intermixing is questionable, but at the same time I believe we have a good reason to believe that the Carthaginian core territories were significantly(>10%) more West Asian shifted than previous Berber populations, how much it's to be determined.

[Defcon2]

Nah 10 would be too high, especially for the whole of Spain. It also depends on the region, some will have none(like the South-East or North), Catalonia has the most with around 10, while regions like the NW will get up to 7-8%.

model:


It seems to improve a bit with nMonte3:

"sample": "Test1:Juan_scaled",
"fit": 3.3128,
"Iberia_North_IA": 53.33,
"ITA_Rome_Latini_IA": 20,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 12.5,
"DEU_MA": 7.5,
"Mozabite": 4.17,
"Yoruba": 2.5,

"sample": "Test1:Xabier_scaled",
"fit": 2.2405,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1": 49.17,
"ITA_Rome_Latini_IA": 16.67,
"DEU_MA": 14.17,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 10.83,
"Iberia_East_IA": 5,
"Mozabite": 4.17,

"sample": "Test2:gixajo_scaled",
"fit": 2.0103,
"Iberia_North_IA": 42.5,
"Iberia_East_IA": 24.17,
"DEU_MA": 10,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 9.17,
"ITA_Rome_Latini_IA": 8.33,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1": 4.17,
"Mozabite": 1.67,

"sample": "Test1:Alejandro_scaled",
"fit": 2.6192,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1": 53.33,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 24.17,
"ITA_Rome_Latini_IA": 8.33,
"Mozabite": 7.5,
"Iberia_East_IA": 5.83,
"Yoruba": 0.83,

"sample": "Test2: Damiao",
"fit": 2.4204,
"Iberia_North_IA": 36.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 20,
"DEU_MA": 16.67,
"Iberia_East_IA": 13.33,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1": 8.33,
"Mozabite": 2.5,
"Yoruba": 2.5,

[Rocinante]

It seems to improve a bit with nMonte3:

"sample": "Test1:Juan_scaled",
"fit": 3.3128,
"Iberia_North_IA": 53.33,
"ITA_Rome_Latini_IA": 20,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 12.5,
"DEU_MA": 7.5,
"Mozabite": 4.17,
"Yoruba": 2.5,

"sample": "Test1:Xabier_scaled",
"fit": 2.2405,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1": 49.17,
"ITA_Rome_Latini_IA": 16.67,
"DEU_MA": 14.17,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 10.83,
"Iberia_East_IA": 5,
"Mozabite": 4.17,

"sample": "Test2:gixajo_scaled",
"fit": 2.0103,
"Iberia_North_IA": 42.5,
"Iberia_East_IA": 24.17,
"DEU_MA": 10,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 9.17,
"ITA_Rome_Latini_IA": 8.33,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1": 4.17,
"Mozabite": 1.67,

"sample": "Test1:Alejandro_scaled",
"fit": 2.6192,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1": 53.33,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 24.17,
"ITA_Rome_Latini_IA": 8.33,
"Mozabite": 7.5,
"Iberia_East_IA": 5.83,
"Yoruba": 0.83,

"sample": "Test2: Damiao",
"fit": 2.4204,
"Iberia_North_IA": 36.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 20,
"DEU_MA": 16.67,
"Iberia_East_IA": 13.33,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1": 8.33,
"Mozabite": 2.5,
"Yoruba": 2.5,

Que calculadora tan hija de puta, me hizo 0,83% negro.

[Cristiano viejo]

I said your results look more normal because most Iberians should be scoring no to very little Germanic like you, the others had way inflated amounts. In fact Sicilians should have more Germanic than Iberians based on Y-DNA and historic evidence.
Historic evidence says here settled more than 300.000 Visigoths and some dozens of thousands more of other Germanic tribes. Something did not happen in Sicily at all.

[Luso]

bump