What West Eurasian pops are genetically furthest from MENAs and West Asians/Caucasus?

[Maguzanci]

Is it peripheral Euros like Uralics or some ancient groups like ANE/MA-1, Gravetto-Danubian?

[Synapsid]

Is it peripheral Euros like Uralics or some ancient groups like ANE/MA-1, Gravetto-Danubian?

Iranian plateau populations have ANE. I think a better question is which population is the most divergent from Dzudzuana/PGNE in Western Eurasia. I would say all PaleoEuropeans (vestonice/Gravettians, Magdelanians, Solutreans etc) and MA-1 are divergent from Basal rich Dzuadzuana/Natufians/Levent_N. Amongst modern Europeans, I would say Finns, Baltics, and Uralics are the most divergent.

[Synapsid]

Is it peripheral Euros like Uralics or some ancient groups like ANE/MA-1, Gravetto-Danubian?

Iranian plateau populations have ANE. I think a better question is which population is the most divergent from Dzudzuana/PGNE in Western Eurasia. I would say all PaleoEuropeans (vestonice/Gravettians, Magdelanians, Solutreans etc) and MA-1 are divergent from Basal rich Dzuadzuana/Natufians/Levent_N. Amongst modern Europeans, I would say Finns, Baltics, and Uralics are the most divergent.

[Maguzanci]

Iranian plateau populations have ANE. I think a better question is which population is the most divergent from Dzudzuana/PGNE in Western Eurasia. I would say all PaleoEuropeans (vestonice/Gravettians, Magdelanians, Solutreans etc) and MA-1 are divergent from Basal rich Dzuadzuana/Natufians/Levent_N. Amongst modern Europeans, I would say Finns, Baltics, and Uralics are the most divergent.


Do you know how much Dzuadzuana and Neolithic farmer do Finns, Baltics, Uralics have?

[Zoro]

Do you know how much Dzuadzuana and Neolithic farmer do Finns, Baltics, Uralics have?


<colgroup width="136"></colgroup> <colgroup width="138"></colgroup> <colgroup width="111"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="160"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpAdm modeling in Lazaridis 2018


Population
Villabruna (WHG)
Dzudzuana
AG3
Baikal-EN
Additional Basal Eurasian/African
P-value


Estonians
18.10%
45.70%
27.90%
4.00%
1.20%
0.295


Finns
13.40%
53.10%
25.90%
7.30%
0.30%
0.391


Georgians
2.60%
71.00%
17.10%
2.80%
6.40%
0.135


Iranians
1.60%
67.40%
19.20%
3.30%
8.50%
0.116


Chuvash
10.90%
45.60%
27.20%
14.90%
1.30%
0.121


Sardinian
12.30%
70.60%
11.60%
2.20%
3.30%
0.501

</tbody>
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I think the p-value is lower for Iranians because they don't have any S. Eurasian or Devils-Gate-N as a source

[Zoro]

Do you know how much Dzuadzuana and Neolithic farmer do Finns, Baltics, Uralics have?

Actually your question doesn't make much sense because if you had bothered reading the paper I posted in your other thread https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?320320-What-European-ethnic-groups-are-genetically-closest-to-WHGs-and-Steppe-nomads&p=6698086#post6698086

you would have seen that Neolthic Farmer can be modeled as 100% Dzuadzuana

[Maguzanci]

<colgroup width="136"></colgroup> <colgroup width="138"></colgroup> <colgroup width="111"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="160"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpAdm modeling in Lazaridis 2018


Population
Villabruna (WHG)
Dzudzuana
AG3
Baikal-EN
Additional Basal Eurasian/African
P-value


Estonians
18.10%
45.70%
27.90%
4.00%
1.20%
0.295


Finns
13.40%
53.10%
25.90%
7.30%
0.30%
0.391


Georgians
2.60%
71.00%
17.10%
2.80%
6.40%
0.135


Iranians
1.60%
67.40%
19.20%
3.30%
8.50%
0.116


Chuvash
10.90%
45.60%
27.20%
14.90%
1.30%
0.121


Sardinian
12.30%
70.60%
11.60%
2.20%
3.30%
0.501

</tbody>
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I think the p-value is lower for Iranians because they don't have any S. Eurasian or Devils-Gate-N as a source

Why do Iranians, Georgians look so physically different from Estonians, Finns, Chuvash if they share almost every common West Eurasian components in significant amounts? Is it because of higher additional Basal Eurasian/African, very little Villabruna, much higher Dzudzuana, lower AG3 in Iranians, Georgians?

Why do Sardinians look so different phenotypically from Iranians, Georgians if they score almost similar amounts of Dzudzuana? Is it because Sardinians have a lot higher WHG and much lower AG3 than the latter?

Do you have datas for Uralics like Mari, Udmurt, Khanty, Mansi in regard to amounts of their Dzudzuana admix?

[Maguzanci]

Actually your question doesn't make much sense because if you had bothered reading the paper I posted in your other thread https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?320320-What-European-ethnic-groups-are-genetically-closest-to-WHGs-and-Steppe-nomads&p=6698086#post6698086

you would have seen that Neolthic Farmer can be modeled as 100% Dzuadzuana

I will read the paper.

Does Dzudzuana also include CHG, Steppe?

Because it does not make sense for Finns, Estonians to score that high Dzudzuana, since they are only around late 20s to 30% something Neolithic Farmer. While Chuvash have even lower Neolithic than the two other Euro groups.

[Zoro]

Why do Iranians, Georgians look so physically different from Estonians, Finns, Chuvash if they share almost every common West Eurasian components in significant amounts? Is it because of higher additional Basal Eurasian/African, very little Villabruna, much higher Dzudzuana, lower AG3 in Iranians, Georgians?

Why do Sardinians look so different phenotypically from Iranians, Georgians if they score almost similar amounts of Dzudzuana? Is it because Sardinians have a lot higher WHG and much lower AG3 than the latter?

Do you have datas for Uralics like Mari, Udmurt, Khanty, Mansi in regard to amounts of their Dzudzuana admix?


Why do Chinese or Indonesians look different than Estonians or Finns if all 3 are 100% Eurasian ?

It's all about time scale and evolution and pigmentation (Latitude and altitude).

If you depigment Iranians, will they still look as different from Estonians ? Isn't alot of the difference due to darker hair, eyes, and skin ?

You have to remember that Dzuadzana was 26,000 years ago and it only takes a few thousand years for pigmentation to change based on environmental pressure. I would say if you were to depigment Iranians then the differences left between them and Estonians can be explained by Iranians having higher Basal Eurasian and lower WHG and AG3. Also, Iranians would have a few percent S. Eurasian which was not used to model the populations. Although not needed for Europeans I think S. Eurasian addition would make the p-value on the Iranians model higher.

Since Dzuadzuan was modeled as 28% Basal Eurasian/African above populations would have the following Basal Eurasian:


<colgroup width="136"></colgroup> <colgroup width="138"></colgroup> <colgroup width="111"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="160"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85"></colgroup> <colgroup width="152"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpAdm modeling in Lazaridis 2018


Population
Villabruna (WHG)
Dzudzuana
AG3
Baikal-EN
Additional Basal Eurasian/African
P-value
Total Basal Eurasian/African


Estonians
18.10%
45.70%
27.90%
4.00%
1.20%
0.295
14.00%


Finns
13.40%
53.10%
25.90%
7.30%
0.30%
0.391
15.17%


Georgians
2.60%
71.00%
17.10%
2.80%
6.40%
0.135
26.28%


Iranians
1.60%
67.40%
19.20%
3.30%
8.50%
0.116
27.37%


Chuvash
10.90%
45.60%
27.20%
14.90%
1.30%
0.121
14.07%


Sardinian
12.30%
70.60%
11.60%
2.20%
3.30%
0.501
23.07%

</tbody>
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[Leto]

Those tables are very misleading. Georgians and Estonians are extremely different from each other. Georgians aren't even European 'cause they have little Euro HG or Steppe admixture while Estonians are among the least Farmer-admixed people in Europe. Of course there's a reason why they look so vastly different from each other.

[Chris596]

Not Balkanites (genetically) for sure. On various Vahaduo calculators after Hungarians, Romanians, Serbians, Croatians, etc. I'm the closest to Balkan Turks in general.

[Harkonnen]

If you split that Finnish sample into 2, East Finns should have lower BE than Estonia.

[Harkonnen]

Why do Chinese or Indonesians look different than Estonians or Finns if all 3 are 100% Eurasian ?

It's all about time scale and evolution and pigmentation (Latitude and altitude).

If you depigment Iranians, will they still look as different from Estonians ? Isn't alot of the difference due to darker hair, eyes, and skin ?

You have to remember that Dzuadzana was 26,000 years ago and it only takes a few thousand years for pigmentation to change based on environmental pressure. I would say if you were to depigment Iranians then the differences left between them and Estonians can be explained by Iranians having higher Basal Eurasian and lower WHG and AG3. Also, Iranians would have a few percent S. Eurasian which was not used to model the populations. Although not needed for Europeans I think S. Eurasian addition would make the p-value on the Iranians model higher.

Since Dzuadzuan was modeled as 28% Basal Eurasian/African above populations would have the following Basal Eurasian:


<colgroup width="136"></colgroup> <colgroup width="138"></colgroup> <colgroup width="111"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="160"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85"></colgroup> <colgroup width="152"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpAdm modeling in Lazaridis 2018


Population
Villabruna (WHG)
Dzudzuana
AG3
Baikal-EN
Additional Basal Eurasian/African
P-value
Total Basal Eurasian/African


Estonians
18.10%
45.70%
27.90%
4.00%
1.20%
0.295
14.00%


Finns
13.40%
53.10%
25.90%
7.30%
0.30%
0.391
15.17%


Georgians
2.60%
71.00%
17.10%
2.80%
6.40%
0.135
26.28%


Iranians
1.60%
67.40%
19.20%
3.30%
8.50%
0.116
27.37%


Chuvash
10.90%
45.60%
27.20%
14.90%
1.30%
0.121
14.07%


Sardinian
12.30%
70.60%
11.60%
2.20%
3.30%
0.501
23.07%

</tbody>
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This is good post. Obviously just few thousands years of isolation can change looks in population drastically, so in that sense it is bit nonsense to attach phenotype to very basic ancestral components that have age of tens of thousand years.

[Zoro]

Those tables are very misleading. Georgians and Estonians are extremely different from each other. Georgians aren't even European 'cause they have little Euro HG or Steppe admixture while Estonians are among the least Farmer-admixed people in Europe. Of course there's a reason why they look so vastly different from each other.

Not really. I bet they are 99.9% the same if you compare the 3.2 billion nucleotides in the human genome and the further back you go the more similar Georgians and Estonians get. In fact if you go back some 80,000 years or whenever the out-of-africa events took place there was no such thing as Georgian, Chinese, Estonians. They were the same.

You must remember that the above table comes out of a peer review paper by geneticists such as Lazaridis who are thouroughly familiar with bioinformatics calculators. But of course I understand that scientific papers and even Dilawer's work would not pass review by Apricity users since they are more knowledgeable than geneticists in bioinformatics methods ;)

[Zoro]

Table updated with Iran-N, CHG, ENF Looks like IRAN-N would have been the darkest out of the bunch


<colgroup width="136"></colgroup> <colgroup width="138"></colgroup> <colgroup width="111"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="160"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85"></colgroup> <colgroup width="152"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpAdm modeling in Lazaridis 2018


Population
Villabruna (WHG)
Dzudzuana
AG3
Baikal-EN
Additional Basal Eurasian/African
P-value
Total Basal Eurasian/African


Estonians
18.10%
45.70%
27.90%
4.00%
1.20%
0.295
14.00%


Finns
13.40%
53.10%
25.90%
7.30%
0.30%
0.391
15.17%


Georgians
2.60%
71.00%
17.10%
2.80%
6.40%
0.135
26.28%


Iranians
1.60%
67.40%
19.20%
3.30%
8.50%
0.116
27.37%


Chuvash
10.90%
45.60%
27.20%
14.90%
1.30%
0.121
14.07%


Sardinian
12.30%
70.60%
11.60%
2.20%
3.30%
0.501
23.07%


CHG
0.00%
67.00%
20.00%
0.00%
13.00%
0.22
31.76%


ANATOLIA-ENF
0.00%
97.90%
0.00%
2.00%
0.00%
0.85
27.41%


Iran-N
0.00%
52.70%
21.10%
0.00%
26.20%
0.37
40.96%

</tbody>
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[dududud]

Not really. I bet they are 99.9% the same if you compare the 3.2 billion nucleotides in the human genome and the further back you go the more similar Georgians and Estonians get. In fact if you go back some 80,000 years or whenever the out-of-africa events took place there was no such thing as Georgian, Chinese, Estonians. They were the same.

You must remember that the above table comes out of a peer review paper by geneticists such as Lazaridis who are thouroughly familiar with bioinformatics calculators. But of course I understand that scientific papers and even Dilawer's work would not pass review by Apricity users since they are more knowledgeable than geneticists in bioinformatics methods ;)

No, they are not the same. Mixed race dude.

Next.

[Leto]

Not really. I bet they are 99.9% the same if you compare the 3.2 billion nucleotides in the human genome and the further back you go the more similar Georgians and Estonians get. In fact if you go back some 80,000 years or whenever the out-of-africa events took place there was no such thing as Georgian, Chinese, Estonians. They were the same.

Then there is no point discussing population genetics in the first place if those thousands of years of genetic separation don't matter. By this logic Kurds and Russians can swap places with each other and nothing will change. Obviously that's not what the OP was inquiring about.

[Zoro]

Then there is no point discussing population genetics in the first place if those thousands of years of genetic separation don't matter. By this logic Kurds and Russians can swap places with each other and nothing will change. Obviously that's not what the OP was inquiring about.

Of course separation causes genetic drift, founder effects, and environmental adaptation but the authors used those populations because they're a common denominator and common denominators facilitate comparisons. So obviously the differences in WHG, Dzuadzuana, and AG3 between Georgians and Estonians are plenty to cause differences in phenotype. The table shows that Geogians have over 10% more Basal Eurasian and about 16% less WHG than Estonians. What makes you think that those differences are not enough to account for differences in the average Georgian and Estonian facial structure? BTW I'm sure there are Georgians out there that can be mistaken for Estonians and visa versa.

Wrt to the OP's question. It would be the highest Basal Eurasian W. ASIAN population vs the highest Siberian/E. Asian and lowest Basal Eurasian EUROPEAN population. You can figure that out by looking at the huge table in the supp

[Harkonnen]

Not really. I bet they are 99.9% the same if you compare the 3.2 billion nucleotides in the human genome and the further back you go the more similar Georgians and Estonians get. In fact if you go back some 80,000 years or whenever the out-of-africa events took place there was no such thing as Georgian, Chinese, Estonians. They were the same.

You must remember that the above table comes out of a peer review paper by geneticists such as Lazaridis who are thouroughly familiar with bioinformatics calculators. But of course I understand that scientific papers and even Dilawer's work would not pass review by Apricity users since they are more knowledgeable than geneticists in bioinformatics methods ;)

Interesting psychological phenom is that many people take much pride in their 3 or 4% Neandertal ancestry, and would much rather be 30% Neanderthal than 3% Sub Saharan African. Yet we are many times more related to SSA than to Neanderthal. It is fascinating that in general Neanderthal ancestry is not been viewed as dreaded mark of being mixed race etc, but rather something fascinating and cool. Indeed many even say that Neanderthals were white folk. Of course we are playing here with branding and mental images.

[Zoro]

No, they are not the same. Mixed race dude.

Next.

Whatever you say pure boy. I can't tell though if your pure WHG, ENF, EHG, or SSA. The difference between us is my ancestors kicked ass lol

[Zoro]

Interesting psychological phenom is that many people take much pride in their 3 or 4% Neandertal ancestry, and would much rather be 30% Neanderthal than 3% Sub Saharan African. Yet we are many times more related to SSA than to Neanderthal. It is fascinating that in general Neanderthal ancestry is not been viewed as dreaded mark of being mixed race etc, but rather something fascinating and cool. Indeed many even say that Neanderthals were white folk. Of course we are playing here with branding and mental images.

Indeed even though as you say SSA is much more related to us than Neanderthal. They may have been white or they may have been brown who knows. It's a mind game.

[Maguzanci]

Why do Chinese or Indonesians look different than Estonians or Finns if all 3 are 100% Eurasian ?

It's all about time scale and evolution and pigmentation (Latitude and altitude).

If you depigment Iranians, will they still look as different from Estonians ? Isn't alot of the difference due to darker hair, eyes, and skin ?

You have to remember that Dzuadzana was 26,000 years ago and it only takes a few thousand years for pigmentation to change based on environmental pressure. I would say if you were to depigment Iranians then the differences left between them and Estonians can be explained by Iranians having higher Basal Eurasian and lower WHG and AG3. Also, Iranians would have a few percent S. Eurasian which was not used to model the populations. Although not needed for Europeans I think S. Eurasian addition would make the p-value on the Iranians model higher.

Since Dzuadzuan was modeled as 28% Basal Eurasian/African above populations would have the following Basal Eurasian:


<colgroup width="136"></colgroup> <colgroup width="138"></colgroup> <colgroup width="111"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="160"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85"></colgroup> <colgroup width="152"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpAdm modeling in Lazaridis 2018


Population
Villabruna (WHG)
Dzudzuana
AG3
Baikal-EN
Additional Basal Eurasian/African
P-value
Total Basal Eurasian/African


Estonians
18.10%
45.70%
27.90%
4.00%
1.20%
0.295
14.00%


Finns
13.40%
53.10%
25.90%
7.30%
0.30%
0.391
15.17%


Georgians
2.60%
71.00%
17.10%
2.80%
6.40%
0.135
26.28%


Iranians
1.60%
67.40%
19.20%
3.30%
8.50%
0.116
27.37%


Chuvash
10.90%
45.60%
27.20%
14.90%
1.30%
0.121
14.07%


Sardinian
12.30%
70.60%
11.60%
2.20%
3.30%
0.501
23.07%

</tbody>
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True to a certain degree, but not necessary. The facial features of Iranians will still look pretty different and distinct from Estonians like having hook nose, more bulging eyes even if the former become depigmented.

Just like how many Jews still have pretty different facial features from Europeans despite being light hair and eyes.

Also does Dzudzuana include Iran Neo, CHG, Steppe? Because Estonians, Finns should not have that high Dzudzuana if they are only 20-30 something percent Farmer.

[Zoro]

True to a certain degree, but not necessary. The facial features of Iranians will still look pretty different and distinct from Estonians like having hook nose, more bulging eyes even if the former become depigmented.

Just like how many Jews still have pretty different facial features from Europeans despite being light hair and eyes.

Also does Dzudzuana include Iran Neo, CHG, Steppe? Because Estonians, Finns should not have that high Dzudzuana if they are only 20-30 something percent Farmer.

You really need to start reading some articles on European population genetics because honestly your questions sound dumb such as "does Dzudzuana include Iran Neo, CHG, Steppe?". How can it when Dzudzuana is 26000 years old and Iran-N 8000 years old and CHG some 10000 years old and Steppe only 5000 years old? You're putting the carriage before the horse.

The other problem is you don't even take the time to fully read what I post and digest it because if you had you would have seen in my post that you just quoted


I would say if you were to depigment Iranians then the differences left between them and Estonians can be explained by Iranians having higher Basal Eurasian and lower WHG and AG3. Also, Iranians would have a few percent S. Eurasian which was not used to model the populations

Also did you miss my post where I added Iran-N to the table?

Look once you start educating yourself on this stuff you'll realize that most Europeans and W. Asians are alive today because of the successes of farming and ENF. That's why ENF took over Europe at the expense of WHG. You'll also realize that ENF is very high in ALL European populations including Finns.

All of European farmers related to Anatolia-N, whether LBK, Britain-N, EEF or whatever became the majority of ancestry in modern Europeans because farming and sedentary life enabled a population explosion not ever seen in Hunter Gatherer societies. Unfortunately the side effect of this population explosion is the current over populated world where animal life plant life and resources have suffered.

Now just educate yourself on this and don't zip through my posts.

[Maguzanci]

You really need to start reading some articles on European population genetics because honestly your questions sound dumb such as "does Dzudzuana include Iran Neo, CHG, Steppe?". How can it when Dzudzuana is 26000 years old and Iran-N 8000 years old and CHG some 10000 years old and Steppe only 5000 years old? You're putting the horse before the carriage.

The other problem is you don't even take the time to fully read what I post and digest it because if you had you would have seen in my post that you just quoted



Also did you miss my post where I added Iran-N to the table?

Look once you start educating yourself on this stuff you'll realize that most Europeans and W. Asians are alive today because of the successes of farming and ENF. That's why ENF took over Europe at the expense of WHG. You'll also realize that ENF is very high in ALL European populations including Finns.

All of European farmers related to Anatolia-N, whether LBK, Britain-N, EEF or whatever became the majority of ancestry in modern Europeans because farming and sedentary life enabled a population explosion not ever seen in Hunter Gatherer societies. Unfortunately the side effect of this population explosion is the current over populated world where animal life plant life and resources have suffered.

Now just educate yourself on this and don't zip through my posts.

Alright. I am totally new to this population genetics stuff especially those of Euros. Before this I focus only on Amerindians and some Mongs.

You don't need to be so condescending and act holier than thou ok? I will definitely try to learn about this subject.

[Leto]

Alright. I am totally new to this population genetics stuff especially those of Euros. Before this I focus only on Amerindians and some Mongs.

You don't need to be so condescending and act holier than thou ok? I will try to study by myself.
Are you actually of East Eurasian descent? ;)

[Maguzanci]

Are you actually of East Eurasian descent? ;)

Yes I am. In fact I think I am 100% Mong.

[Leto]

Yes I am. In fact I think I am 100% Mong.
Then how come you can tell Jews from European whites by their looks? To many if not most non-whites Jews are just a kind of whites.

[Zoro]

Alright. I am totally new to this population genetics stuff especially those of Euros. Before this I focus only on Amerindians and some Mongs.

You don't need to be so condescending and act holier than thou ok? I will definitely try to learn about this subject.

You are also thankless SOB giving me a thumbsdown after I took the time to explain things to you

[Maguzanci]

Then how come you can tell Jews from European whites by their looks? To many if not most non-whites Jews are just a kind of whites.

Well. In the beginning I also thought Jews look like whites as well.

But i am also an anthrotard who is interested in looking at phenos of several races and used to be in anthroscape for years.

After seeing several pics of Jews, I notice that many have weird features like hook nose, strange droopy eyes despite having sharing many superficial features with whites.

[Maguzanci]

You are also thankless SOB giving me a thumbsdown after I took the time to explain things to you

Oh now you insult me? Thanks

I give you a thumbsdown because of your condescending and and arrogant attitude towards me while explaining information.

Thank you for trying to educate but you don't need to show that attitude.

[Maguzanci]

Then how come you can tell Jews from European whites by their looks? To many if not most non-whites Jews are just a kind of whites.

Also i have seen some pics of Jews like Theodore Herzl or Oded Fehr who look straight up 100% semitic MENA without admix.