Romanians/Bulgarians Slavicness

[Konstantinos]

Has anyone explored the idea that Romanians are less Slavic than Bulgarians?

I'm mostly talking about southern Romanians who are no more/marginally more "northern" than northern Bulgarians and slightly more "northern" than southern Bulgarians. The idea so far is that their more northern genetic position equals more Slavic influence.

However, Bulgarians' pre-Slavic base is (probably) like pre-Slavic Greeks for the south and Thracians/Greeks/Romanized natives for the north. (South) Romanians' pre-Slavic base is (probably) like Dacians/Getae. Now Thracians-Dacians-Getae were all closely related, like sibling ethnic groups but their genetic cline could be sharp since the northern in East Balkans the more you encountered very genetically "north" groups(Scythians, etc.). This in essence means that Bulgarians could end up more "southern" genetically even with greater Slavic influence, because their starting position would be significantly more Med. E.g. 66% Greek + 34% Slavic would still be more "southern" than 75% Dacian + 25% Slavic(numbers are examples, don't take literally).

This could also include Y haplogroups I2 and (less so) R1a. If I'm not mistaken I2 shows its greatest diversity in Romania along with Ukraine. This is mostly attributed to the Slavic migrations and the closer to the homeland the more diversity. However there's no reason not to assume that I2 was equally represented and diverse in pre-Romanians/Romanians(whether they existed there) prior to Slavic migrations. It's not very likely that I2 would be so diverse in Romania if it indeed mostly migrated there.

A final note: the starting assumption is that Romanians are native to at least southern Romania and not migrants there from much southern. I stress this because it's still not clear where they originated. That's what I deem most likely from the current knowledge we have so this hypothesis assumes this fact.

[Ion Basescul]

Has anyone explored the idea that Romanians are less Slavic than Bulgarians?

I'm mostly talking about southern Romanians who are no more/marginally more "northern" than northern Bulgarians and slightly more "northern" than southern Bulgarians. The idea so far is that their more northern genetic position equals more Slavic influence.



We have almost 100 samples from Southern Romania, so you can explore for yourself on Eurogenes K13. I think that they are identical to Bulgarians, but I haven't looked into this closer.

Averages

Romania_Muntenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntenia),21.99,24.44,16.65,11.53,19.29,2.10,1.26, 0.56,1.06,0.46,0.35,0.22,0.09
Romania_Oltenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oltenia),24.06,24.89,17.94,10.59,17.54,1.77,0.71,0 .84,0.68,0.40,0.35,0.13,0.10
Romania_Dobruja (https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrogea),21.49,24.75,17.56,11.38,19.03,2.26,0.76, 1.00,0.99,0.33,0.32,0.10,0.03

Individuals

Romania_Oltenia_1,22.27,23.40,17.73,12.50,17.07,3. 39,0.75,0.07,2.02,0.45,0,0.20,0.16
Romania_Oltenia_2,22.25,24.85,18.66,9.74,18.79,2.6 0,1.11,0,0.42,0.57,1.01,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_3,24.11,22.08,17.90,10.21,21.15,2. 32,0.29,0,0.47,0.58,0.87,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_4,21.93,23.57,18.86,10.58,20.31,1. 23,2.16,0.18,0,1.18,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_5,21.02,23.27,17.21,12.87,20.82,0. 82,1.85,0,2.02,0,0.12,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_6,28.47,32.48,15.33,4.99,15.23,1.0 7,0,1.83,0.35,0.12,0.12,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_7,25.77,22.41,16.20,13.83,16.77,2. 71,0,1.58,0,0.36,0.36,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_8,26.30,25.20,17.18,11.00,14.27,1. 85,0.63,2.86,0,0,0.65,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_9,25.44,24.14,18.89,11.68,17.82,0. 26,0,0.79,0.81,0.15,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_10,22.92,23.94,16.69,9.83,21.77,2. 47,1.33,0,0.60,0,0.42,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_11,24.08,24.38,19.25,11.62,17.43,0 ,0,1.83,0,1.23,0.18,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_12,25.97,24.20,16.99,9.33,17.93,4. 04,0,0.96,0,0,0.34,0.23,0
Romania_Oltenia_13,23.54,22.65,18.50,14.61,13.57,4 .97,0.89,0,0.08,0.08,0,1.13,0
Romania_Oltenia_14,21.19,26.77,18.68,9.15,19.15,1. 02,1.97,0.50,0.18,1.25,0.14,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_15,28.26,19.43,14.64,11.60,18.99,3 .12,0.77,2.96,0.22,0,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_16,19.21,25.72,17.23,12.09,19.79,3 .11,0.36,0.97,0,1.52,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_17,20.36,25.91,17.42,13.26,20.00,0 .46,0,0,1.61,0.64,0,0,0.33
Romania_Oltenia_18,21.77,24.08,18.67,10.19,20.22,1 .83,0.21,1.54,0,0.37,0.80,0,0.33
Romania_Oltenia_19,22.82,24.72,19.48,10.73,17.59,0 .59,0,1.80,0.40,0.77,1.10,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_20,23.97,28.45,16.59,11.70,14.09,0 .78,3.01,0.14,1.10,0,0.18,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_21,22.23,28.36,19.07,12.48,14.91,0 .52,0.79,0.31,0,0.21,0.86,0.25,0
Romania_Oltenia_22,23.55,28.97,20.09,9.49,13.26,0. 95,2.60,0,0.48,0,0.62,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_23,26.34,21.26,22.47,8.89,17.58,1. 46,0.23,0.35,0,0.62,0,0.17,0.65
Romania_Oltenia_24,25.39,26.10,17.03,10.88,19.17,0 ,0,0,0.87,0,0,0.56,0
Romania_Oltenia_25,24.53,24.65,15.35,13.63,15.68,2 .21,0,0.06,2.51,0.60,0.67,0,0.12
Romania_Oltenia_26,18.59,27.90,19.33,11.26,15.78,3 .31,0,0,2.37,1.36,0.09,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_27,23.34,26.95,17.68,8.86,17.09,1. 97,0,3.24,0,0,0,0,0.86
Romania_Oltenia_28,27.16,20.52,20.98,9.52,17.36,1. 60,0,0.03,1.33,0.06,0.92,0.52,0
Romania_Oltenia_29,26.46,23.90,17.86,9.21,19.32,1. 44,0.11,1.34,0,0,0.36,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_30,21.93,25.87,19.17,11.21,15.71,0 .50,4.10,0,1.43,0.02,0,0,0.05
Romania_Oltenia_31,29.73,20.75,17.72,7.05,16.40,1. 93,2.81,1.67,0.23,0,0.25,1.48,0
Romania_Oltenia_32,24.72,24.38,15.99,11.94,16.70,3 .78,0,1.63,0.87,0,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_33,28.20,24.60,16.17,11.38,17.24,0 ,0,0,0,1.14,0.11,0,1.16
Romania_Oltenia_34,23.70,24.12,17.76,10.36,18.73,2 .49,0.59,2.02,0,0.09,0.13,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_35,25.89,28.85,16.01,10.07,13.71,1 .43,0.66,0.69,0.75,0.93,0.75,0,0.27
Romania_Oltenia_36,20.27,24.03,19.20,9.76,21.51,1. 46,0,0.16,2.14,0.22,1.26,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_37,26.61,28.30,18.06,6.23,16.92,1. 57,0,0.96,0,0.58,0.42,0.35,0
Romania_Oltenia_38,29.00,22.93,16.82,7.39,18.66,2. 80,0,1.30,0.07,0.10,0.93,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_39,19.23,26.69,20.73,11.99,15.56,0 .94,0.66,0.84,3.01,0.28,0.08,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_1,22.40,29.27,14.14,9.87,20.38,1. 89,0,1.35,0,0,0.46,0,0.23
Romania_Muntenia_2,21.95,24.99,13.78,10.73,20.81,4 .08,0.41,0.35,1.32,1.15,0,0.08,0.35
Romania_Muntenia_3,23.98,26.22,15.25,12.51,17.29,0 ,2.53,0,2.20,0,0,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_4,21.08,25.04,15.14,12.81,19.48,2 .11,1.61,0.75,0,1.56,0,0.30,0.12
Romania_Muntenia_5,16.49,16.56,16.99,17.69,23.30,2 .86,1.81,1.14,1.96,0.40,0,0.79,0
Romania_Muntenia_6,21.10,25.99,20.45,8.08,18.04,0. 33,1.02,0.99,2.62,0.39,0.10,0.89,0
Romania_Muntenia_7,18.01,22.11,17.36,13.84,22.57,1 .89,1.66,1.15,0,0.42,0,1.00,0
Romania_Muntenia_8,21.50,21.45,16.95,15.70,16.93,1 .09,3.82,1.28,0.36,0,0.93,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_9,22.64,27.57,19.56,10.20,14.87,0 .64,1.98,0,1.71,0.55,0,0.28,0
Romania_Muntenia_10,23.72,23.98,16.65,10.04,21.42, 1.70,0.12,0,1.38,0,0.96,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_11,21.88,28.76,14.95,7.84,20.50,1 .42,2.41,0.23,1.02,0.80,0,0.18,0
Romania_Muntenia_12,23.27,25.31,16.40,9.58,17.20,3 .31,1.53,0,2.77,0.14,0.28,0,0.20
Romania_Muntenia_13,23.23,23.47,19.43,8.36,20.02,2 .72,0,2.26,0,0.51,0,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_14,24.10,25.04,11.75,12.59,20.28, 2.67,0,0.50,1.26,1.36,0.22,0,0.22
Romania_Muntenia_15,18.43,26.39,17.21,12.73,23.98, 0,0,0,0.73,0.26,0.27,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_16,22.78,22.06,16.81,12.07,20.82, 1.65,0,0,1.61,0.70,0.68,0.82,0
Romania_Muntenia_17,25.78,27.71,14.02,12.19,15.14, 2.64,0.56,1.14,0,0,0.31,0,0.51
Romania_Muntenia_18,18.41,25.59,16.59,11.15,23.61, 1.18,0.64,0,1.50,0.32,1.00,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_19,24.96,21.47,17.67,11.40,19.01, 4.18,0,0,0.81,0,0.46,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_20,23.71,27.18,13.61,9.50,17.96,2 .22,1.39,0.54,2.56,0.59,0.74,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_21,22.59,23.87,20.94,11.19,15.40, 1.19,1.44,0,0.83,1,1.56,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_22,19.51,25.17,22.50,11.60,17.60, 1.19,0,0,1.22,1.00,0.19,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_23,23.65,28.15,14.73,10.75,15.39, 2.48,1.40,0.91,0.94,0.97,0,0.62,0
Romania_Muntenia_24,17.66,26.24,17.15,11.12,23.51, 1.38,0,0.80,1.53,0,0.62,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_25,17.37,24.12,18.10,11.28,24.26, 2.25,0,1.56,0.22,0,0.37,0.47,0
Romania_Muntenia_26,23.14,24.14,18.07,13.36,16.13, 2.60,1.37,0,0.83,0.15,0.21,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_27,25.52,22.68,17.20,11.05,18.44, 2.91,0,0,1.04,0.14,0,1.02,0
Romania_Muntenia_28,23.42,22.53,16.80,12.12,17.72, 4.15,0,0,1.19,0.75,0.26,1.03,0
Romania_Muntenia_29,17.82,23.48,15.18,16.54,22.59, 2.82,0.41,0,0.82,0,0.22,0.14,0
Romania_Muntenia_30,19.94,20.52,13.16,14.70,24.20, 3.69,0.83,0,1.31,1.35,0.28,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_31,23.77,24.85,18.01,11.25,16.62, 1.84,1.06,0,0.12,1.27,0.57,0.19,0.45
Romania_Muntenia_32,22.45,27.66,17.29,9.82,16.87,1 .65,0.48,2.02,0.83,0,0.38,0,0.54
Romania_Muntenia_33,21.85,27.04,16.01,10.51,20.63, 3.02,0,0,0,0.88,0.06,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_34,22.95,27.28,17.74,9.04,16.91,1 .97,0,0.78,1.73,0,1.59,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_35,20.00,21.78,20.01,12.13,21.84, 1.40,0,0,0.68,0.87,0.30,1.00,0
Romania_Muntenia_36,22.23,24.91,16.34,12.72,18.81, 0,1.57,0.63,1.93,0.30,0.17,0,0.37
Romania_Muntenia_37,20.85,26.21,15.07,8.39,23.83,1 .81,0.89,0,1.83,0.99,0.12,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_38,24.57,24.09,16.25,12.66,17.71, 2.52,0,0.42,1.29,0,0.19,0.08,0.22
Romania_Muntenia_39,22.89,24.80,16.05,8.90,19.41,4 .19,0.46,1.01,0.87,1.14,0,0.27,0
Romania_Muntenia_40,20.53,25.11,17.34,8.41,20.77,4 .30,0.13,0.41,2.58,0.41,0,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_41,22.97,26.30,16.88,10.33,18.69, 3.75,0,0,1.09,0,0,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_42,23.83,18.19,17.88,15.42,19.05, 1.51,1.58,1.54,0,0,0,1.01,0
Romania_Dobruja_1,18.73,20.87,18.21,13.31,21.79,2. 37,2.31,0.93,0.93,0,0.54,0,0
Romania_Dobruja_2,23.02,21.60,19.72,10.49,19.20,1. 53,2.04,0,1.17,0.73,0.38,0.12,0
Romania_Dobruja_3,17.40,23.94,17.99,14.44,19.50,3. 45,1.41,0,1.24,0.42,0.07,0.15,0
Romania_Dobruja_4,23.39,24.68,18.96,12.10,17.48,0. 06,0,2.53,0,0.42,0.22,0.15,0
Romania_Dobruja_5,21.55,25.66,16.63,8.74,20.95,3.7 9,0,2.54,0,0,0.07,0,0.08
Romania_Dobruja_6,23.84,24.51,17.21,12.92,14.84,2. 55,0.92,1.63,1.13,0,0,0.42,0
Romania_Dobruja_7,23.49,25.77,16.48,7.76,22.78,0.6 1,0,0,1.65,0.63,0.54,0,0.26
Romania_Dobruja_8,19.14,28.02,17.00,11.03,20.83,1. 29,0,1.47,0.52,0,0.70,0,0
Romania_Dobruja_9,24.92,21.95,17.18,11.51,18.75,3. 11,0,0.49,0.82,0.89,0.38,0,0
Romania_Dobruja_10,19.98,26.99,17.49,11.18,17.15,2 .68,1.19,0.09,2.35,0.53,0.10,0.28,0
Romania_Dobruja_11,20.89,28.27,16.28,11.67,16.08,3 .46,0.48,1.29,1.07,0,0.51,0,0

[Bosniensis]

Neither Bulgarians nor Romanians are Slavic people. That's obvious.

[Konstantinos]

We have almost 100 samples from Southern Romania, so you can explore for yourself on Eurogenes K13. I think that they are identical to Bulgarians, but I haven't looked into this closer.

Averages

Romania_Muntenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntenia),21.99,24.44,16.65,11.53,19.29,2.10,1.26, 0.56,1.06,0.46,0.35,0.22,0.09
Romania_Oltenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oltenia),24.06,24.89,17.94,10.59,17.54,1.77,0.71,0 .84,0.68,0.40,0.35,0.13,0.10
Romania_Dobruja (https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrogea),21.49,24.75,17.56,11.38,19.03,2.26,0.76, 1.00,0.99,0.33,0.32,0.10,0.03

Individuals

Romania_Oltenia_1,22.27,23.40,17.73,12.50,17.07,3. 39,0.75,0.07,2.02,0.45,0,0.20,0.16
Romania_Oltenia_2,22.25,24.85,18.66,9.74,18.79,2.6 0,1.11,0,0.42,0.57,1.01,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_3,24.11,22.08,17.90,10.21,21.15,2. 32,0.29,0,0.47,0.58,0.87,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_4,21.93,23.57,18.86,10.58,20.31,1. 23,2.16,0.18,0,1.18,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_5,21.02,23.27,17.21,12.87,20.82,0. 82,1.85,0,2.02,0,0.12,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_6,28.47,32.48,15.33,4.99,15.23,1.0 7,0,1.83,0.35,0.12,0.12,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_7,25.77,22.41,16.20,13.83,16.77,2. 71,0,1.58,0,0.36,0.36,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_8,26.30,25.20,17.18,11.00,14.27,1. 85,0.63,2.86,0,0,0.65,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_9,25.44,24.14,18.89,11.68,17.82,0. 26,0,0.79,0.81,0.15,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_10,22.92,23.94,16.69,9.83,21.77,2. 47,1.33,0,0.60,0,0.42,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_11,24.08,24.38,19.25,11.62,17.43,0 ,0,1.83,0,1.23,0.18,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_12,25.97,24.20,16.99,9.33,17.93,4. 04,0,0.96,0,0,0.34,0.23,0
Romania_Oltenia_13,23.54,22.65,18.50,14.61,13.57,4 .97,0.89,0,0.08,0.08,0,1.13,0
Romania_Oltenia_14,21.19,26.77,18.68,9.15,19.15,1. 02,1.97,0.50,0.18,1.25,0.14,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_15,28.26,19.43,14.64,11.60,18.99,3 .12,0.77,2.96,0.22,0,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_16,19.21,25.72,17.23,12.09,19.79,3 .11,0.36,0.97,0,1.52,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_17,20.36,25.91,17.42,13.26,20.00,0 .46,0,0,1.61,0.64,0,0,0.33
Romania_Oltenia_18,21.77,24.08,18.67,10.19,20.22,1 .83,0.21,1.54,0,0.37,0.80,0,0.33
Romania_Oltenia_19,22.82,24.72,19.48,10.73,17.59,0 .59,0,1.80,0.40,0.77,1.10,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_20,23.97,28.45,16.59,11.70,14.09,0 .78,3.01,0.14,1.10,0,0.18,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_21,22.23,28.36,19.07,12.48,14.91,0 .52,0.79,0.31,0,0.21,0.86,0.25,0
Romania_Oltenia_22,23.55,28.97,20.09,9.49,13.26,0. 95,2.60,0,0.48,0,0.62,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_23,26.34,21.26,22.47,8.89,17.58,1. 46,0.23,0.35,0,0.62,0,0.17,0.65
Romania_Oltenia_24,25.39,26.10,17.03,10.88,19.17,0 ,0,0,0.87,0,0,0.56,0
Romania_Oltenia_25,24.53,24.65,15.35,13.63,15.68,2 .21,0,0.06,2.51,0.60,0.67,0,0.12
Romania_Oltenia_26,18.59,27.90,19.33,11.26,15.78,3 .31,0,0,2.37,1.36,0.09,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_27,23.34,26.95,17.68,8.86,17.09,1. 97,0,3.24,0,0,0,0,0.86
Romania_Oltenia_28,27.16,20.52,20.98,9.52,17.36,1. 60,0,0.03,1.33,0.06,0.92,0.52,0
Romania_Oltenia_29,26.46,23.90,17.86,9.21,19.32,1. 44,0.11,1.34,0,0,0.36,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_30,21.93,25.87,19.17,11.21,15.71,0 .50,4.10,0,1.43,0.02,0,0,0.05
Romania_Oltenia_31,29.73,20.75,17.72,7.05,16.40,1. 93,2.81,1.67,0.23,0,0.25,1.48,0
Romania_Oltenia_32,24.72,24.38,15.99,11.94,16.70,3 .78,0,1.63,0.87,0,0,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_33,28.20,24.60,16.17,11.38,17.24,0 ,0,0,0,1.14,0.11,0,1.16
Romania_Oltenia_34,23.70,24.12,17.76,10.36,18.73,2 .49,0.59,2.02,0,0.09,0.13,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_35,25.89,28.85,16.01,10.07,13.71,1 .43,0.66,0.69,0.75,0.93,0.75,0,0.27
Romania_Oltenia_36,20.27,24.03,19.20,9.76,21.51,1. 46,0,0.16,2.14,0.22,1.26,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_37,26.61,28.30,18.06,6.23,16.92,1. 57,0,0.96,0,0.58,0.42,0.35,0
Romania_Oltenia_38,29.00,22.93,16.82,7.39,18.66,2. 80,0,1.30,0.07,0.10,0.93,0,0
Romania_Oltenia_39,19.23,26.69,20.73,11.99,15.56,0 .94,0.66,0.84,3.01,0.28,0.08,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_1,22.40,29.27,14.14,9.87,20.38,1. 89,0,1.35,0,0,0.46,0,0.23
Romania_Muntenia_2,21.95,24.99,13.78,10.73,20.81,4 .08,0.41,0.35,1.32,1.15,0,0.08,0.35
Romania_Muntenia_3,23.98,26.22,15.25,12.51,17.29,0 ,2.53,0,2.20,0,0,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_4,21.08,25.04,15.14,12.81,19.48,2 .11,1.61,0.75,0,1.56,0,0.30,0.12
Romania_Muntenia_5,16.49,16.56,16.99,17.69,23.30,2 .86,1.81,1.14,1.96,0.40,0,0.79,0
Romania_Muntenia_6,21.10,25.99,20.45,8.08,18.04,0. 33,1.02,0.99,2.62,0.39,0.10,0.89,0
Romania_Muntenia_7,18.01,22.11,17.36,13.84,22.57,1 .89,1.66,1.15,0,0.42,0,1.00,0
Romania_Muntenia_8,21.50,21.45,16.95,15.70,16.93,1 .09,3.82,1.28,0.36,0,0.93,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_9,22.64,27.57,19.56,10.20,14.87,0 .64,1.98,0,1.71,0.55,0,0.28,0
Romania_Muntenia_10,23.72,23.98,16.65,10.04,21.42, 1.70,0.12,0,1.38,0,0.96,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_11,21.88,28.76,14.95,7.84,20.50,1 .42,2.41,0.23,1.02,0.80,0,0.18,0
Romania_Muntenia_12,23.27,25.31,16.40,9.58,17.20,3 .31,1.53,0,2.77,0.14,0.28,0,0.20
Romania_Muntenia_13,23.23,23.47,19.43,8.36,20.02,2 .72,0,2.26,0,0.51,0,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_14,24.10,25.04,11.75,12.59,20.28, 2.67,0,0.50,1.26,1.36,0.22,0,0.22
Romania_Muntenia_15,18.43,26.39,17.21,12.73,23.98, 0,0,0,0.73,0.26,0.27,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_16,22.78,22.06,16.81,12.07,20.82, 1.65,0,0,1.61,0.70,0.68,0.82,0
Romania_Muntenia_17,25.78,27.71,14.02,12.19,15.14, 2.64,0.56,1.14,0,0,0.31,0,0.51
Romania_Muntenia_18,18.41,25.59,16.59,11.15,23.61, 1.18,0.64,0,1.50,0.32,1.00,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_19,24.96,21.47,17.67,11.40,19.01, 4.18,0,0,0.81,0,0.46,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_20,23.71,27.18,13.61,9.50,17.96,2 .22,1.39,0.54,2.56,0.59,0.74,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_21,22.59,23.87,20.94,11.19,15.40, 1.19,1.44,0,0.83,1,1.56,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_22,19.51,25.17,22.50,11.60,17.60, 1.19,0,0,1.22,1.00,0.19,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_23,23.65,28.15,14.73,10.75,15.39, 2.48,1.40,0.91,0.94,0.97,0,0.62,0
Romania_Muntenia_24,17.66,26.24,17.15,11.12,23.51, 1.38,0,0.80,1.53,0,0.62,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_25,17.37,24.12,18.10,11.28,24.26, 2.25,0,1.56,0.22,0,0.37,0.47,0
Romania_Muntenia_26,23.14,24.14,18.07,13.36,16.13, 2.60,1.37,0,0.83,0.15,0.21,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_27,25.52,22.68,17.20,11.05,18.44, 2.91,0,0,1.04,0.14,0,1.02,0
Romania_Muntenia_28,23.42,22.53,16.80,12.12,17.72, 4.15,0,0,1.19,0.75,0.26,1.03,0
Romania_Muntenia_29,17.82,23.48,15.18,16.54,22.59, 2.82,0.41,0,0.82,0,0.22,0.14,0
Romania_Muntenia_30,19.94,20.52,13.16,14.70,24.20, 3.69,0.83,0,1.31,1.35,0.28,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_31,23.77,24.85,18.01,11.25,16.62, 1.84,1.06,0,0.12,1.27,0.57,0.19,0.45
Romania_Muntenia_32,22.45,27.66,17.29,9.82,16.87,1 .65,0.48,2.02,0.83,0,0.38,0,0.54
Romania_Muntenia_33,21.85,27.04,16.01,10.51,20.63, 3.02,0,0,0,0.88,0.06,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_34,22.95,27.28,17.74,9.04,16.91,1 .97,0,0.78,1.73,0,1.59,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_35,20.00,21.78,20.01,12.13,21.84, 1.40,0,0,0.68,0.87,0.30,1.00,0
Romania_Muntenia_36,22.23,24.91,16.34,12.72,18.81, 0,1.57,0.63,1.93,0.30,0.17,0,0.37
Romania_Muntenia_37,20.85,26.21,15.07,8.39,23.83,1 .81,0.89,0,1.83,0.99,0.12,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_38,24.57,24.09,16.25,12.66,17.71, 2.52,0,0.42,1.29,0,0.19,0.08,0.22
Romania_Muntenia_39,22.89,24.80,16.05,8.90,19.41,4 .19,0.46,1.01,0.87,1.14,0,0.27,0
Romania_Muntenia_40,20.53,25.11,17.34,8.41,20.77,4 .30,0.13,0.41,2.58,0.41,0,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_41,22.97,26.30,16.88,10.33,18.69, 3.75,0,0,1.09,0,0,0,0
Romania_Muntenia_42,23.83,18.19,17.88,15.42,19.05, 1.51,1.58,1.54,0,0,0,1.01,0
Romania_Dobruja_1,18.73,20.87,18.21,13.31,21.79,2. 37,2.31,0.93,0.93,0,0.54,0,0
Romania_Dobruja_2,23.02,21.60,19.72,10.49,19.20,1. 53,2.04,0,1.17,0.73,0.38,0.12,0
Romania_Dobruja_3,17.40,23.94,17.99,14.44,19.50,3. 45,1.41,0,1.24,0.42,0.07,0.15,0
Romania_Dobruja_4,23.39,24.68,18.96,12.10,17.48,0. 06,0,2.53,0,0.42,0.22,0.15,0
Romania_Dobruja_5,21.55,25.66,16.63,8.74,20.95,3.7 9,0,2.54,0,0,0.07,0,0.08
Romania_Dobruja_6,23.84,24.51,17.21,12.92,14.84,2. 55,0.92,1.63,1.13,0,0,0.42,0
Romania_Dobruja_7,23.49,25.77,16.48,7.76,22.78,0.6 1,0,0,1.65,0.63,0.54,0,0.26
Romania_Dobruja_8,19.14,28.02,17.00,11.03,20.83,1. 29,0,1.47,0.52,0,0.70,0,0
Romania_Dobruja_9,24.92,21.95,17.18,11.51,18.75,3. 11,0,0.49,0.82,0.89,0.38,0,0
Romania_Dobruja_10,19.98,26.99,17.49,11.18,17.15,2 .68,1.19,0.09,2.35,0.53,0.10,0.28,0
Romania_Dobruja_11,20.89,28.27,16.28,11.67,16.08,3 .46,0.48,1.29,1.07,0,0.51,0,0


I'm aware of such results hence my proposition. Wouldn't a same position imply that Romanians have less Slavic ancestry than Bulgarians assuming that most likely the pre-Slavic populations of the former were more "northern" than the latter?

A second aspect I find interesting is what concerns Y-DNA. Since it is often heavily affected by genetic drift it has to be treated with caution and semi-independently from autosomal. I believe that most of I2 and maybe R1a in Romanians is native based on diversity and strengthened by autosomal. I make this point since it is casually assumed that Romanians are more Slavic than Bulgarians but I don't feel it's the case.

[Konstantinos]

Neither Bulgarians nor Romanians are Slavic people. That's obvious.

Romanians are certainly not Slavs. Bulgarians? They have Slav identity with Turkic name and predominant native ancestry. If you had to choose one I believe they identify as Slavs.

[Lioncourt]

Bulgarian pre-Slavic base isn't Greek, it is Hellenized or Latinized Thracian, which were people very similar to Dacians.

[Jana]

This could also include Y haplogroups I2 and (less so) R1a. If I'm not mistaken I2 shows its greatest diversity in Romania along with Ukraine. This is mostly attributed to the Slavic migrations and the closer to the homeland the more diversity. However there's no reason not to assume that I2 was equally represented and diverse in pre-Romanians/Romanians(whether they existed there) prior to Slavic migrations. It's not very likely that I2 would be so diverse in Romania if it indeed mostly migrat

No it doesn't, I2-din has entire diversity in Ukraine and all ancient I2-din samples found so far (both N and S) have been Slavic.
But none in SE Europe ancient ydna, only I2a2.

Enough with this crap already.

[Konstantinos]

No it doesn't, I2-din has entire diversity in Ukraine and all ancient I2-din samples found so far (both N and S) have been Slavic.
But none in SE Europe ancient ydna, only I2a2.

Enough with this crap already.

Care to provide a source for lone Ukraine diversity? Because Poland has also old I2-Din and Romania has good diversity let alone Romania-Balkans is very undersearched. Taking extant ancient samples while ignoring the level of research on each area is stupid.

Mind your language when talking to me especially out of the blue.

[Jana]

Care to provide a source for lone Ukraine diversity? Because Poland has also old I2-Din and Romania has good diversity let alone Romania-Balkans is very undersearched. Taking extant ancient samples while ignoring the level of research on each area is stupid.

Mind your language when talking to me especially out of the blue.

No, I won't, I am sick trying to explain to every idiot out there that appears every week how our main hg is Slavic, guess what.
When you claim something, than you present evidence, not ask me for that and I won't waste my time.

There are no ancient Balkan I2-din samples, and there never will be, only Slavic we have so far, and in upcoming Serbian Roman study no Romans were I2-din neither natives only one Slav skeleton from medieval graveyard turned out I2-din. Paper is due this year.

You are just trying to cope hard with the fact I2-din in Greece is Slavic. Deal with it or find us ancient Dacian I2-din samples, good luck :laugh:

[Konstantinos]

Bulgarian pre-Slavic base isn't Greek, it is Hellenized or Latinized Thracian, which were people very similar to Dacians.

Indeed it is Hellenized Thracian, I referred them as Greek since by that time Thracians as identity was long gone.

Apart from that Thracians-Dacians-Getae were closest related but that doesn't necessarily mean identical genetics. The scenarios are:

1) Thracians, Dacians and Greeks were similar, not likely at least for Dacians(my guess).
2) Thracians and Dacians are similar and northern than Greeks, by a good margin probably(see 1). Then we have:
a) Pre-Slavic Greek Macedonians and Thracians much northern than rest of Greeks(because many Hellenized Thracians), which implies they had the least Slavic
influence of the mainland. Virtually untenable.
b) Thracians were completely replaced with Greeks, unlikely.
3) Thracians were southern than Dacians, probably closer to Greeks than Dacians. This is the scenario I see most likely.

[Konstantinos]

No, I won't, I am sick trying to explain to every idiot out there that appears every week how our main hg is Slavic, guess what.
When you claim something, than you present evidence, not ask me for that and I won't waste my time.

There are no ancient Balkan I2-din samples, and there never will be, only Slavic we have so far, and in upcoming Serbian Roman study no Romans were I2-din neither natives only one Slav skeleton from medieval graveyard turned out I2-din. Paper is due this year.

You are just trying to cope hard with the fact I2-din in Greece is Slavic. Deal with it or find us ancient Dacian I2-din samples, good luck :laugh:

This is one of the most retarded things I have ever read. Since your attention span seems low you can't grasp the fact that this thread is not about Greeks, not about Croats, not about Serbs and not about Slavic DNA in Greece.

If you can't contribute in this regard don't fucking derail this thread.

[AncientGreek]

https://imgur.com/V4652Bb.png

[bained]

Man, there has been tons of migrations into the area. Why do you assume all the steppe component is from the Slavs? Or what even is a slav? Or what do you even use for the Thracians or Dacians? There is one random ass Iron Age sample for Thracian, but there are couple Bronze Age ones that are different from it. Plus check the Moldova Scythians, they are from the same period and pretty northern, are they Slavs too? What about MJ12 sample, is he Thracian or Slav?
A paper with couple Thracian kings (bodies buried with gold and shit) is in the making, so will see then.

[AncientGreek]

Slav = CZE_Early_Slav, represents close to the original Slavic admixture.
Greek&Balkan = Iron Age Balkans - Bulgaria, Crotia and Greek samples.
NearEastern = Iron Age Near East - Eastern Anatolia, Levant and Persian samples.

Not a perfect model, but clearly shows how changed the Balkan populations after the Iron Age and in my opinion Slavs would have definitely changed it the most! Maybe future studies can show something different!

[bained]

Oh yeah? What about the Bulgars who actually made the country and are the only recorded one? Which theory is popular now: that they were small elite, or that they were turkic asian and vanished without a trace? Wonder where they gonna fit into that. Besides, why do people keep using CZE_Early_Slav, if migration into Romania and Bulgaria came from the East/North East??

[Dušan]

Indeed it is Hellenized Thracian, I referred them as Greek since by that time Thracians as identity was long gone.

Apart from that Thracians-Dacians-Getae were closest related but that doesn't necessarily mean identical genetics. The scenarios are:

1) Thracians, Dacians and Greeks were similar, not likely at least for Dacians(my guess).
2) Thracians and Dacians are similar and northern than Greeks, by a good margin probably(see 1). Then we have:
a) Pre-Slavic Greek Macedonians and Thracians much northern than rest of Greeks(because many Hellenized Thracians), which implies they had the least Slavic
influence of the mainland. Virtually untenable.
b) Thracians were completely replaced with Greeks, unlikely.
3) Thracians were southern than Dacians, probably closer to Greeks than Dacians. This is the scenario I see most likely.

Serbs have that same pre-Slavic Thracian component like Bulgarians and Romanians, but in less percentage than them, with higher Slavic percentage.

[17571imre]

Slav = CZE_Early_Slav, represents close to the original Slavic admixture.
Greek&Balkan = Iron Age Balkans - Bulgaria, Crotia and Greek samples.
NearEastern = Iron Age Near East - Eastern Anatolia, Levant and Persian samples.

Not a perfect model, but clearly shows how changed the Balkan populations after the Iron Age and in my opinion Slavs would have definitely changed it the most! Maybe future studies can show something different!

maybe try RUS_Sunghir_MA:Sunghir6 instead of CZE_Early_Slav, because the CZE_Early_Slav has some German Admixture. would be intresting to see the results.

[Ion Basescul]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?323316-Southeast-Europe-K8

[PAGANE]

Only during the Ottoman Empire from today's lands of Bulgaria there are about 1.5-2 million Bulgarians in the direction of Wallachia / today Southern Romania / Normally southern Romania is very close to Bulgaria. You don't have to look far into antiquity

[vbnetkhio]

I'm aware of such results hence my proposition. Wouldn't a same position imply that Romanians have less Slavic ancestry than Bulgarians assuming that most likely the pre-Slavic populations of the former were more "northern" than the latter?

A second aspect I find interesting is what concerns Y-DNA. Since it is often heavily affected by genetic drift it has to be treated with caution and semi-independently from autosomal. I believe that most of I2 and maybe R1a in Romanians is native based on diversity and strengthened by autosomal. I make this point since it is casually assumed that Romanians are more Slavic than Bulgarians but I don't feel it's the case.

for some R1a subclades it's quite possible, for i2a-din not. it's way too young. In the 1st century BC, Dacians already had their kingdom, and around the same time, one man who is the ancestor of all today's I-Y3120 was alive. Even among iron age Ukrainian and Moldovan samples there isn't any i2a-din, let alone areas further south.

[bained]

I2a1b in Bronze Age cemetery, Mokrin Serbia

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1?fbclid=IwAR3JreGqw2wnQwOz5K-EWZqVHZdTd9EifE1advk0VidlyB2DSxm0K03zIso

[vbnetkhio]

I2a1b in Bronze Age cemetery, Mokrin Serbia

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1?fbclid=IwAR3JreGqw2wnQwOz5K-EWZqVHZdTd9EifE1advk0VidlyB2DSxm0K03zIso

you do realize this isn't I-Y3120 ?

[bained]

you do realize this isn't I-Y3120 ?

Yep. Not real I2a1b. Must be contamination. Must be pre-proto-para-slav. Or slav tourist. Or i2a1b reemerged in the Balkans. Or we will never find i2a1b in the balkans before the slavs.

[Epirus DNA]

Man, there has been tons of migrations into the area. Why do you assume all the steppe component is from the Slavs? Or what even is a slav? Or what do you even use for the Thracians or Dacians? There is one random ass Iron Age sample for Thracian, but there are couple Bronze Age ones that are different from it. Plus check the Moldova Scythians, they are from the same period and pretty northern, are they Slavs too? What about MJ12 sample, is he Thracian or Slav?
A paper with couple Thracian kings (bodies buried with gold and shit) is in the making, so will see then.

:gpost: Slavs are definitely not a pure race or ethnicity. They vary from Nordics, to Turkic to Mediterranean to Middle Eastern. All are mixed. For example, the Western Slavs (Veneti) are a mix of Slav, Scythian (Sarmatian), Germanic, and Turkic peoples. Eastern Slavs (Antes) are a mix of Slavs, Balts, Finno-Uric, Scythians, Germanic, and Turkic peoples. The Southern Slavs (Sclaveni) are a mix of Illyrians, Slavs, Scythians (Sarmatians), Turkic peoples, and Greeks. What is common among all Slavs is their Scythian-Turkic background.Therefore Slavs are a cultural-linguistic group of Eurasian peoples.

[vbnetkhio]

the Western Slavs (Veneti) are a mix of Slav, Scythian (Sarmatian), Germanic, and Turkic peoples.


Eastern Slavs (Antes) are a mix of Slavs, Balts, Finno-Uric, Scythians, Germanic, and Turkic peoples.


The Southern Slavs (Sclaveni) are a mix of Illyrians, Slavs, Scythians (Sarmatians), Turkic peoples, and Greeks.


What is common among all Slavs is their Scythian-Turkic background.Therefore Slavs are a cultural-linguistic group of Eurasian peoples.


:rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002: :rofl_002:

[Epirus DNA]

:rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002: :rofl_002:

Exactly. They are mixed. Slavs are definitely not a pure race or ethnicity. Who do you consider pure Slav today?

[Ion Basescul]

Yep. Not real I2a1b. Must be contamination. Must be pre-proto-para-slav. Or slav tourist. Or i2a1b reemerged in the Balkans. Or we will never find i2a1b in the balkans before the slavs.

It's not this. It can't be Y3120 because the ancestor of all Y3120 lived 2000 years ago. We are 2000 years in the future compared to the Y3120 individual and he was 2000 years in the future compared to the I2a1b samples from the paper.

[Bosniensis]

you do realize this isn't I-Y3120 ?


Father of First I-Y3120 was I-CTS10228.

I-Y3120 mutated from all previous clades on Balkans as well.

How do you imagine finding I-Y3120, it didn't even existed in Bronze Age, we were those OLDER CLADES.

Of course every I2a1b is our direct ancestor, but you retarded Pan-Slavist who yearn to be located in Moscow in Siberia refuse to accept that.

[Bosniensis]

Yep. Not real I2a1b. Must be contamination. Must be pre-proto-para-slav. Or slav tourist. Or i2a1b reemerged in the Balkans. Or we will never find i2a1b in the balkans before the slavs.

Yes every I2a1b uncovered on Balkans is probably tourist from Moscow.

[Dušan]

Yes every I2a1b uncovered on Balkans is probably tourist from Moscow.

Cradle of Slavs is Kievan Russia, todays Ukraine.
I2a1b came to Balkans from Kievan Russia.

[bained]

Cradle of Slavs is Kievan Russia, todays Ukraine.
I2a1b came to Balkans from Kievan Russia.

Very good comrade, one rouble is on the way.

[Bosniensis]

Cradle of Slavs is Kievan Russia, todays Ukraine.
I2a1b came to Balkans from Kievan Russia.

No, Balkan people went to Ukraine (as name says it UKRAJ-NA) then absorbed itself among Slavic populace and later even participated in formation of Russia.

It is because I2 people came through Anatolia through Europe, it HAD to pass Balkans (cause then they could not go over Sea routes because of inferior ship and navigation tech).

Also every biological community must be majority in the area where it came first, the fact I2 is 20-25% in Ukraine is because they came to live among R1a people. THEY CAME from balkans which is homeplace of I2a1b.

I2a1b moved to Poland, Ukraine, etc... and they left trace everywhere.. but it's homeland is Balkans.

[vbnetkhio]

Father of First I-Y3120 was I-CTS10228.

I-Y3120 mutated from all previous clades on Balkans as well.

How do you imagine finding I-Y3120, it didn't even existed in Bronze Age, we were those OLDER CLADES.

Of course every I2a1b is our direct ancestor, but you retarded Pan-Slavist who yearn to be located in Moscow in Siberia refuse to accept that.

you are on a good track, keep exploring.

here's one hint: every I2a1b isn't your direct ancestor. just like, for example, your uncle isn't your ancestor.

[Lucas]

you are on a good track, keep exploring.

here's one hint: every I2a1b isn't your direct ancestor. just like, for example, your uncle isn't your ancestor.

Yes only this very first I2a1b creator.

[Ford]

People who don't think I2a in the Balkans is slavic.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/furious-man-screaming-covering-his-ears-close-up-mature-against-white-background-32062043.jpg

[ixulescu]

People who don't think I2a in the Balkans is slavic.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/furious-man-screaming-covering-his-ears-close-up-mature-against-white-background-32062043.jpg

where is the proof for it being slavic?

[bained]

where is the proof for it being slavic?

I2a1b of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!

[Jana]

where is the proof for it being slavic?

All ancient samples are Slavic. It has highest frequency and diversity among Slavs. Age of subclades.
It has never been found in pre-Slavic Balkans but other haplogroups.

And finally, autosomal input of Slavic genes in south slavs correlates with I2-din + R1a percentage,.

Now what proof you have except your wishful thinking and complete denial of facts?

[Jana]

For example, R1a M458 has never been found in medieval Slavic samples so far. It is main type of R1a among west Slavs.
Ofcourse it is clear it's Slavic hg but there is less hard proof it is Slavic than I2-din. Same for Z280, another R1a among Slavs. So far found only in BA Balts iirc.

Why can't some people here leave south slavs alone and stop spreading their frustrations on us?
Please do, you are either retarded or simply malicious.

[Jana]

you are on a good track, keep exploring.

here's one hint: every I2a1b isn't your direct ancestor. just like, for example, your uncle isn't your ancestor.

Ixulescu thumbing up Bosniensis posts xD :lol: :laugh:

[ixulescu]

1. All ancient samples are Slavic.

2. It has highest frequency and diversity among Slavs.

3. Age of subclades.
It has never been found in pre-Slavic Balkans but other haplogroups.

4. And finally, autosomal input of Slavic genes in south slavs correlates with I2-din + R1a percentage,.


This is so fucking dumb, again with this bullshit?

1. there are only a handful of ancient samples, they don't prove anything.

2. it has the highest frequency in the Balkans regardless of ethnicity. It is much less frequent among other Slavs (than the southern ones).

3. Balkanites are on equally old subclades, despite being sampled less!

4. what the fuck are Slavic genes?

[Jana]

This is so fucking dumb, again with this bullshit?

1. there are only a handful of ancient samples, they don't prove anything.

2. it has the highest frequency in the Balkans regardless of ethnicity. It is much less frequent among other Slavs (than the southern ones).

3. Balkanites are on equally old subclades, despite being sampled less!

4. what the fuck are Slavic genes?

No idiot, it peaks in Slavic Balkanites not non Slavic ones. If it was ancient there it would peak in non Slavic speakers. And it peaks in country with highest amount of Slavic genes (BiH) while being lower in those with more native ancestry (Bulgaria)
Diversity peaks in Ukraine.
And no, south slavs have very young I2-din subclades, correlating with slavic migrations.

We have several Slavic medieval I2-din samples from Czechia, Russia and Poland and soon one from Serbia, you have zero pre-Slavic I2-din samples.

Why don't you shut your mouth? Frustrated troll.

[Jana]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A5913/

My father's branch, all Slavs except one Finn who is grandson of Russian POW. Thank God no Romanians in our branch.
Formed 1400 years ago, in 6th century during Slavic migrations.

Deal with it.

[bained]

yfull.com: "Sole proprietor Vadim Urasin", 105523, 16th Parkovaya st, 55-2, Moscow, Russian Federation
Phone: +79153970079 (unfortunately we don't speak English in acceptable level)

There is some correlation, but I cannot figure it out.

[vbnetkhio]

For example, R1a M458 has never been found in medieval Slavic samples so far. It is main type of R1a among west Slavs.
Ofcourse it is clear it's Slavic hg but there is less hard proof it is Slavic than I2-din. Same for Z280, another R1a among Slavs. So far found only in BA Balts iirc.

Why can't some people here leave south slavs alone and stop spreading their frustrations on us?
Please do, you are either retarded or simply malicious.

there are many new m458 and z280 samples:

https://i.imgur.com/Zgfhasr.png

https://i.imgur.com/hQPLdDe.png

this streghthens yourt argument, as these haplogroups are much older and widespread than Slavs, and the very young I-Y3120 remains as the best marker of Slavic expansion.

[Bosniensis]

where is the proof for it being slavic?

There isn't one.

According to Serbs and Croats -> Romanians are retarded people who refuse to accept the fact they are all 100% Slavs

Being 30% I2, 30% R1a you are 100% Slavs for them.

Same with Turks who would kill anyone who deny them their Mongolian and Central asian identity.

Romanians and Albanians are the only sane people on Balkans.

[Jana]

There isn't one.

According to Serbs and Croats -> Romanians are retarded people who refuse to accept the fact they are all 100% Slavs

Being 30% I2, 30% R1a you are 100% Slavs for them.

Same with Turks who would kill anyone who deny them their Mongolian and Central asian identity.

Romanians and Albanians are the only sane people on Balkans.

Stop lying as you usually do. Romanians are still mainly native Balkan like Bulgarians but they have significant Slavic admixture.
Deal with it muzzie.

You are disgusting self hater and embarasment for your people because you are muslim and there is nothing deeper here.

[ixulescu]

No idiot, it peaks in Slavic Balkanites not non Slavic ones. If it was ancient there it would peak in non Slavic speakers. And it peaks in country with highest amount of Slavic genes (BiH) while being lower in those with more native ancestry (Bulgaria)

Bosnia is not more Slavic than the rest of non-Greek Balkans in any significant degree.



Diversity peaks in Ukraine.


Of course, because Ukraine is a young country built with migrants from all regions of Tsarist Russia.




And no, south slavs have very young I2-din subclades, correlating with slavic migrations.


Where's the proof that Balkan clades are younger, show it to me.



We have several Slavic medieval I2-din samples from Czechia, Russia and Poland and soon one from Serbia, you have zero pre-Slavic I2-din samples.


who cares about a handful of medieval samples, I2a-Din is ancient. You have nothing.

[Bosniensis]

Stop lying as you usually do. Romanians are still mainly native Balkan like Bulgarians but they have significant Slavic admixture.
Deal with it muzzie.

You are disgusting self hater and embarasment for your people because you are muslim and there is nothing deeper here.

Sorry if people of Turkey, Bosnia haven't fallen for that Western propaganda of Shaming muslims.

Up to 1800 my people ruled half of the world, where were you?

I am shocked that people in Europe think it's a shame to be Muslim.

The most powerful Nation in Europe in 1600 were Muslims. Not Russians, Not French, Not Germans = OTTOMANS.

[Leto]

Of course, because Ukraine is a young country built with migrants from all regions of Tsarist Russia.

Not true. It's young indeed but what is now the right-bank Ukraine, Volhynia, Galitsia have always had a local East Slavic population which didn't settle there just 300-400 years ago.

[ixulescu]

Not true. It's young indeed but what is now the right-bank Ukraine, Volhynia, Galitsia have always had local East Slavic population which didn't settle there just 300-400 years ago.

Volhynia, Galitsia represent only a small fraction of the overall Ukrainian population.

[Bosniensis]

True, but that's a small fraction of the overall Ukrainian population.

Also there are currently 151.000 Vlachs in Ukraine, and there was over 400.000 who became assimilated and who became Ukrainians.

And then someone comes and say: I2 is found in Ukraine = so that means Balkaners are Slavs.

[ixulescu]

Also there are currently 151.000 Vlachs in Ukraine, and there was over 400.000 who became assimilated and who became Ukrainians.

And then someone comes and say: I2 is found in Ukraine = so that means Balkaners are Slavs.

That whole region was multiethnic, it had East Slavs, Poles, Hungarians and Vlachs.

And obviously, medieval samples from that region were not necessarily Slavic.

[Leto]

Some South Slavs (at least on this forum) don't seem to want to be seen as Slavic. I guess that's because of their relatively low Northeast European and (again relatively) high East Med scores and of course dark southerly looks not associated with Balto-Slavic people. Plus perhaps political reasons.
At least the Romanians aren't Slavic speakers, so they have a more solid reason xD

[Dušan]

That whole region was multiethnic, it had East Slavs, Poles, Hungarians and Vlachs.

And obviously, medieval samples from that region were not necessarily Slavic.

Off cource it is Slavic, because Ukraine is heart of Slavic world, it is Slavic cradle.

I respect our neighbours Romanian people very much, I dont understand your Slavophobic behaviour.

Romanian people have large percentage of Slavic admixture, as same as we Serbs have large percentage of paleo-Balkan admixture. Deal with it.

[Leto]

Off cource it is Slavic, because Ukraine is heart of Slavic world, it is Slavic cradle.

I respect our neighbours Romanian people very much, I dont understand your Slavophobic behaviour.

Romanian people have large percentage of Slavic admixture, as same as we Serbs have large percentage of paleo-Balkan admixture. Deal with it.
Yeah, he is not entirely correct again. Kievshchina (Kiev area) was never depopulated, it has always had a continuous East Slavic (Ruthenian, Rus) presence. Also, Cossacks and Ruthenian peasants from what is now Western Ukraine were the driving force in the colonization of today's Eastern (left-bank) Ukraine.

[Ford]

Some South Slavs (at least on this forum) don't seem to want to be seen as Slavic. I guess that's because of their relatively low Northeast European and (again relatively) high East Med scores and of course dark southerly looks not associated with Balto-Slavic people. Plus perhaps political reasons.
At least the Romanians aren't Slavic speakers, so they have a more solid reason xD

Basically this. It's like a half black kid with a white father and identity issues.

[pulstar]

Some South Slavs (at least on this forum) don't seem to want to be seen as Slavic. I guess that's because of their relatively low Northeast European and (again relatively) high East Med scores and of course dark southerly looks not associated with Balto-Slavic people. Plus perhaps political reasons.
At least the Romanians aren't Slavic speakers, so they have a more solid reason xD

Some? I think just one.

[Leto]

Basically this. It's like a half black kid with a white father and identity issues.
Haha, good point. TA's definition of Slavdom is extremely narrow. Basically if you don't look like a stereotypical Russian or maybe Pole, you aren't Slavic. Hence some people (I'd rather not name the ethnicity I have in mind) who do not look like Russians/score things like 20% East Med (never found in us unless mongrelized) come to feel "excluded" and start claiming they are this and that instead.

[Jana]

Bosnia is not more Slavic than the rest of non-Greek Balkans in any significant degree.



Of course, because Ukraine is a young country built with migrants from all regions of Tsarist Russia.




Where's the proof that Balkan clades are younger, show it to me.



who cares about a handful of medieval samples, I2a-Din is ancient. You have nothing.

Fuck off from our haplogroup, Vlach debil. You are genetically closer to Albanians than to us, you are not a Slav, conentrate on your paleo E, J and R1b clades.

And yes Bosnia is autosomally most Slavic balkan country becuse Croatia has western input.

As I said, piss off from our haplogroup imbecile.

[Kamal900]

For example, R1a M458 has never been found in medieval Slavic samples so far. It is main type of R1a among west Slavs.
Ofcourse it is clear it's Slavic hg but there is less hard proof it is Slavic than I2-din. Same for Z280, another R1a among Slavs. So far found only in BA Balts iirc.

Why can't some people here leave south slavs alone and stop spreading their frustrations on us?
Please do, you are either retarded or simply malicious.

Autosomal DNA also puts Croats, Bosniaks and Slovinians in the South-West Slavic cluster who cluster more closer to Central Europeans, Bulgarians and Macedonians belong in the South-East cluster which are more paleo-Balkan genetically than Slavic while Serbs are in between the two clusters.

An autosomal analysis study of 90 samples showed that Western Balkan populations had a genetic uniformity, intermediate between South Europe and Eastern Europe, in line with their geographic location. According to the same study, Bosnians (together with Croatians) are by autosomal DNA closest to East European populations and overlap mostly with Hungarians.[79] In the 2015 analysis, Bosnians formed a western South Slavic cluster with the Croatians and Slovenians in comparison to eastern cluster formed by Macedonians and Bulgarians with Serbians in the middle. The western cluster (Bosnians included) has an inclination toward Hungarians, Czechs, and Slovaks, while the eastern cluster toward Romanians and some extent Greeks.[80] Based on analysis of IBD sharing, Middle Eastern populations most likely did not contribute to genetics in Islamicized populations in the Western Balkans, including Bosniaks, as these share similar patterns with neighboring Christian populations.[79]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#Genetics

There are indeed wogs here from Europe that are trying to deconstruct the ethnicity of others for their own nationalistic gains like this Greek idiot that came to my thread where he tells me that these Greek Orthodox and Melkite Arab Christians are somehow ethnically Greek or some shit even though genetically they barely have anything to do with Europe as a whole let alone with Greece.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?322931-Classify-These-Arab-Christians-Of-The-Middle-East

[Konstantinos]

https://imgur.com/V4652Bb.png

This doesn't answer my question. We need to take into account the different pre-Slavic bases.

[Konstantinos]

Man, there has been tons of migrations into the area. Why do you assume all the steppe component is from the Slavs? Or what even is a slav? Or what do you even use for the Thracians or Dacians? There is one random ass Iron Age sample for Thracian, but there are couple Bronze Age ones that are different from it. Plus check the Moldova Scythians, they are from the same period and pretty northern, are they Slavs too? What about MJ12 sample, is he Thracian or Slav?
A paper with couple Thracian kings (bodies buried with gold and shit) is in the making, so will see then.

This question rests mostly on assumptions, since I too believe we lack a lot of relevant DNA. I wanted to share my thoughts on this since it seems a foregone conclusion that Romanians are more Slavic than Bulgarians, which I find dubious based on a couple of predictions I laid out. I think it's an interesting question for now and want some quality opinions.

[vbnetkhio]

This doesn't answer my question. We need to take into account the different pre-Slavic bases.

the pre-Slavic base of the entire Balkans(+Romania and Moldova) was late Roman, South Italian-like.

[Kamal900]

He is a muzzie, vast majority of Slavs don't accept muslims. They are pariahs in Slavic world, that's it.

It wasn't always like that but now is.

Well, I think there's more to this since he did trolled me when my genetics shows that I'm predominately Levantine than Arabian. He thinks that being an Arab has to be descendant from the Arabian peninsula even though Arabs originated in what is now Jordan, NW Hijaz and South Syria back in Neo-Assyrian times during the early Iron age period, and the Arabian admixture in Palestinian Muslims isn't nearly significant and so on which is around 15% on average.

[Konstantinos]

the pre-Slavic base of the entire Balkans(+Romania and Moldova) was late Roman, South Italian-like.

I seriously doubt that. Even ancient Greeks weren't South Italian-like in my opinion, let alone Dacians and northern Illyrians.

[Leto]

Well, I think there's more to this since he did trolled me when my genetics shows that I'm predominately Levantine than Arabian. He thinks that being an Arab has to be descendant from the Arabian peninsula even though Arabs originated in what is now Jordan, NW Hijaz and South Syria back in Neo-Assyrian times during the early Iron age period, and the Arabian admixture in Palestinian Muslims isn't nearly significant and so on which is around 15% on average.
Arabism was indeed imposed on the Levant and North Africa by Muslim Arabian conquerors and settlers.

[Jana]

the pre-Slavic base of the entire Balkans(+Romania and Moldova) was late Roman, South Italian-like.

I don't agree with that.

[vbnetkhio]

I seriously doubt that. Even ancient Greeks weren't South Italian-like in my opinion, let alone Dacians and northern Illyrians.

they indeed weren't. i mean, why don't you check the ancient samples?

but by the time Slavs came here, the population was South Italian-like.

[vbnetkhio]

I don't agree with that.

North Croatia, Slovenia and Hungary are different but they aren't Balkans.

[Ion Basescul]

We love our ancestry, all of it, and it is.predominetely Slavic. Deal with it.

And unlike him I live in my beautiful country not as some immigrant in US.

There's nothing for me to deal with. I couldn't care less about anyone's personal ancestry and how they interpret it. But it shows that you hate your Southern side, which is in higher proportions in some non-Slavic speaking Southeast Euros.

[Kamal900]

Arabism was indeed imposed on the Levant and North Africa by Muslim Arabian conquerors and settlers.

:noidea:

Yeah, which is true for other groups including the Slavs as well, though the difference is that the Arabian genetic contribution to the Levant is weak in contrast in the Balkans where Croats, Slovenians and Bosniaks are over 60% Slavic genetically, and thus, they cluster more closer to Central Europeans than to other Balkanites as a whole. It wasn't the Arabians that had imposed the Arabic identity and language onto us but rather from non-Arab Muslim dynasties that ruled the Levant like the Mamlukis. The Ummuyads rule was very brief since they had only existed for 83 years till the Abbasids took over, and they were much more tolerant to non-Arabic cultures than their predecessors.

[Jana]

North Croatia, Slovenia and Hungary are different but they aren't Balkans.

My father is only 1/8 north Croat and you know how his non Slavic side looks like. It doesn't make sense to be south italian like unless you mean Illyrians were completely genocided and replaced with Romans and ydna says different story.

My guess is Tuscan like, a mix of Romanized Illyrian DNA. But we will see.

[Konstantinos]

Serbs have that same pre-Slavic Thracian component like Bulgarians and Romanians, but in less percentage than them, with higher Slavic percentage.

I think Serbs are more Slavic than Bulgarians and Romanians, ancient DNA will answer that. However, it isn't sure the Thracians at Serb territory were the same genetically as in Bulgarian or Romanian territory. They could be northern/southern/whatever. Depending on their composition native/Slav percentage will change. That's what I stress out, we have to take into consideration the pre-Slavic base of everyone which could have been different from place to place.

[Leto]

:noidea:

Yeah, which is true for other groups including the Slavs as well, though the difference is that the Arabian genetic contribution to the Levant is weak in contrast in the Balkans where Croats, Slovenians and Bosniaks are over 60% Slavic genetically, and thus, they cluster more closer to Central Europeans than to other Balkanites as a whole. It wasn't the Arabians that had imposed the Arabic identity and language onto us but rather from non-Arab Muslim dynasties that ruled the Levant like the Mamlukis. The Ummuyads rule was very brief since they had only existed for 83 years till the Abbasids took over, and they were much more tolerant to non-Arabic cultures than their predecessors.
Don't have any opinion on that, so let me trust you on that because I don't think you tend to misrepresent the Middle East :)

[Coastal Elite]

God bless the Romanian language, wouldn't trade it for the world. #GoodTaste

[Jana]

There's nothing for me to deal with. I couldn't care less about anyone's personal ancestry and how they interpret it. But it shows that you hate your Southern side, which is in higher proportions in some non-Slavic speaking Southeast Euros.

No I don't, I hate people who spread lies. We are mostly Slavic and whoever claims otherwise is a dirty liar. If we were Illyrian mostly I would promote and cherish that because I would love the most whatever is my main ancestry.

And I have less Med ancestry than Romanians and Moldovans despite living on Med sea and you living in east europe. Ukrainian mongrels don't count.

I cluster closest to Slovenians. Now move on.

[Konstantinos]

they indeed weren't. i mean, why don't you check the ancient samples?

but by the time Slavs came here, the population was South Italian-like.

How can I check the ancient samples since we don't have Ancient Greek Dna? We have Mycenaean DNA, Ancient Greeks were 1000 years after that and Slavs came another 1000 years after that. How are we to know how Greeks or anyone in the Balkans was without any relevant DNA? We can only predict, and my predictions are that not even mainland Greeks were South Italian-like at any point, Dacians and others of similar latitude were much northern than that.

[Leto]

God bless the Romanian language, wouldn't trade it for the world. #GoodTaste
Do you speak Romanian? Wasn't your Romanian American father born in the U.S.?

[Lioncourt]

Ironically the Glagolic and Cyrilic alphabets came from the woggiest Slavic lands, as well as the first Slavic national and ethnic identity.

[Kamal900]

Don't have any opinion on that, so let me trust you on that because I don't think you tend to misrepresent the Middle East :)

Yeah. The point is that Slavs had the biggest genetic and cultural impact in Europe where half of Europe is Slavic, and their significant genetic contributions can also be found in non-Slavic peoples like Germans or Austrians. That's in contrast to the Arabians where their Arabian genetic contributions is weak, except for Jordan and Iraq, but they're the exceptions not the rule.

[Ford]

No I don't, I hate people who spread lies. We are mostly Slavic and whoever claims otherwise is a dirty liar. If we were Illyrian mostly I would promote and cherish that because I would love the most whatever is my main ancestry.

And I have less Med ancestry than Romanians and Moldovans despite living on Med sea and you living in east europe. Ukrainian mongrels don't count.

I cluster closest to Slovenians. Now move on.

Even if native Balkan components formed the majority of our ancestry we still wouldn't be anything but Slavs.

[Coastal Elite]

Do you speak Romanian? Wasn't your Romanian American father born in the U.S.?

I speak shitty Romanian but I appreciate the language. I took a semester in college. I actually think it sounds better than English.

[Jana]

:noidea:

Yeah, which is true for other groups including the Slavs as well, though the difference is that the Arabian genetic contribution to the Levant is weak in contrast in the Balkans where Croats, Slovenians and Bosniaks are over 60% Slavic genetically, and thus, they cluster more closer to Central Europeans than to other Balkanites as a whole. It wasn't the Arabians that had imposed the Arabic identity and language onto us but rather from non-Arab Muslim dynasties that ruled the Levant like the Mamlukis. The Ummuyads rule was very brief since they had only existed for 83 years till the Abbasids took over, and they were much more tolerant to non-Arabic cultures than their predecessors.

That is because Slavic culture like Germanic was very primitive so it couldn't spread without mass migration of slavic/germanic tribes. Only superior cultures like Greek or Roman menaged to impose their language trough tiny elite in lets say Wallonia or Pontus trough their organised administration and state structures.

[bained]

Guys, what a shitshow, please calm down. Stay cool.
Konstantinos has an interesting idea and some of us want to discuss it. I understand that some of you live in tribal times or want to be part of greater modern pan-slavic CCCP, but the rest of us don't. That's why we have different independent countries as Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Croatia etc. that we love and enjoy, without being part of the Moscow Comintern. Keep in mind, even if for a moment accept that the I2a1b-Din guy migrated from the marshes of Belarus, he did it for a damn good reason and decided to have nothing in common with that. He had many kids and his kids developed countries far away from the Pripyat Exclusion Zone. As 8 pages of shitposting demonstrated, there is no common idea of what the definition of slav is and the hate in between is far greater than any unity. If you are muslim, if you are christian, if you score 20% East Med I don't care. You are I2a1b and you are cool guy! Just keep in mind, your I2a1b made a country and fought for it for 2000 years, dont fall into the brotherhood of slavs, that tries to tell you are not pure, you are nothing without him. You are a cool guy!

[Leto]

Yeah. The point is that Slavs had the biggest genetic and cultural impact in Europe where half of Europe is Slavic, and their significant genetic contributions can also be found in non-Slavic peoples like Germans or Austrians. That's in contrast to the Arabians where their Arabian genetic contributions is weak, except for Jordan and Iraq, but they're the exceptions not the rule.
And yet many Muslims even outside the proper Arab world love to claim Arabian descent whereas in Europe people tend to distance themselves from the Slavs. See Romanians, Hungarians, Germans, Greeks, Albanians and even some Southern Slavs.

[Jana]

Even if native Balkan components formed the majority of our ancestry we still wouldn't be anything but Slavs.

True.

[Ford]

Guys, what a shitshow, please calm down. Stay cool.
Konstantinos has an interesting idea and some of us want to discuss it. I understand that some of you live in tribal times or want to be part of greater modern pan-slavic CCCP, but the rest of us don't. That's why we have different independent countries as Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Croatia etc. that we love and enjoy, without being part of the Moscow Comintern. Keep in mind, even if for a moment accept that the I2a1b-Din guy migrated from the marshes of Belarus, he did it for a damn good reason and decided to have nothing in common with that. He had many kids and his kids developed countries far away from the Pripyat Exclusion Zone. As 8 pages of shitposting demonstrated, there is no common idea of what the definition of slav is and the hate in between is far greater than any unity. If you are muslim, if you are christian, if you score 20% East Med I don't care. You are I2a1b and you are cool guy! Just keep in mind, your I2a1b made a country and fought for it for 2000 years, dont fall into the brotherhood of slavs, that tries to tell you are not pure, you are nothing without him. You are a cool guy!

The kumis went to your head. A slav is someone who speaks a slavic language, end of story.

[Jana]

Ironically the Glagolic and Cyrilic alphabets came from the woggiest Slavic lands, as well as the first Slavic national and ethnic identity.

And it seems you are not ashamed of your Slavic identity.

[Kamal900]

And yet many Muslims even outside the proper Arab world love to claim Arabian descent whereas in Europe people tend to distance themselves from the Slavs. See Romanians, Hungarians, Germans, Greeks, Albanians and even some Southern Slavs.

I guess it's due to religion and so on even though it's not true at all. The people today that cluster the closest to the Natufians are Arabians while us Levantines are very mixed from ancient to the modern period. You should look at how the EBA Canaanites of Jordan were like and compare it to the Canaanites from later periods of the bronze and iron age periods. There were migrations to the Levant from Anatolia and Iran as well as from the Euraisan steppes after the Early Bronze age perod.

[Bosniensis]

Some South Slavs (at least on this forum) don't seem to want to be seen as Slavic. I guess that's because of their relatively low Northeast European and (again relatively) high East Med scores and of course dark southerly looks not associated with Balto-Slavic people. Plus perhaps political reasons.
At least the Romanians aren't Slavic speakers, so they have a more solid reason xD

People on Western Balkans speak Slavic language for the same reason people in Africa speak French.

There are multiple notes in Byzantine Historiography that Slavic Armies conquered these territories and installed new Kingdoms, but the populace wasn't Slavic.

In the last 1000 years, the process of De-Romanization (de-latinization) of all Native communities of Western Balkans is ongoing process, it was even attempted in Romania but it failed.

My family and many my neighbours are dark pigmented with curly hair like Albos, Italians and Greeks, when we say that we are Slavs people laugh at us.

Our religious institutions and politicians also identify our Slavism only with language and culture but they as well claim Celtic and Illyrian ancestry of our people.

I have nothing against Slavic people but I don't want to be compared with something we don't look alike. We are not pale Balto-Nordic Slavs, and in Poland people would recognize us as foreigners.

[Leto]

Guys, what a shitshow, please calm down. Stay cool.
Konstantinos has an interesting idea and some of us want to discuss it. I understand that some of you live in tribal times or want to be part of greater modern pan-slavic CCCP, but the rest of us don't. That's why we have different independent countries as Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Croatia etc. that we love and enjoy, without being part of the Moscow Comintern. Keep in mind, even if for a moment accept that the I2a1b-Din guy migrated from the marshes of Belarus, he did it for a damn good reason and decided to have nothing in common with that. He had many kids and his kids developed countries far away from the Pripyat Exclusion Zone. As 8 pages of shitposting demonstrated, there is no common idea of what the definition of slav is and the hate in between is far greater than any unity. If you are muslim, if you are christian, if you score 20% East Med I don't care. You are I2a1b and you are cool guy! Just keep in mind, your I2a1b made a country and fought for it for 2000 years, dont fall into the brotherhood of slavs, that tries to tell you are not pure, you are nothing without him. You are a cool guy!
Funny how you imply that the USSR and communism in general were some kind of Slavic supremacist or pan-Slavic systems. Lol. Russophobia really shows.

[Kaspias]

Let's shut up and contribute

I put DEU_MA to spreadsheet in order to cover additional Steppe ancestry for Balkan part and used various references instead of taking an average. I think this should be answer of the question

https://i.ibb.co/KwqvCky/base.png

SS


Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.08145 8,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.00 4704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
Slav:KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29,0.134311,0.123895, 0.076555,0.06783,0.044624,0.026774,0.013161,0.0122 3,-0.003681,-0.036083,-0.011367,-0.012139,0.025718,0.027937,-0.019272,-0.001326,0.010431,-0.00114,0.003771,0.013381,-0.00025,-0.007666,0.008874,-0.007591,0.006826
Balkan:BGR_IA,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Balkan:scy192,0.124067,0.137096,0.015462,-0.020026,0.015695,-0.012829,0.00235,0.000692,0.001023,0.025878,0.0094 19,-0.000599,-0.006987,-0.008945,-0.013301,-0.009679,0.012908,0.004307,-0.000377,0.003502,-0.011729,0.009892,-0.004314,-0.004338,0.001796
Balkan:scy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
Balkan:scy300,0.1161,0.140143,0.025644,-0.031331,0.016618,-0.005299,-0.001645,-0.007384,0.007772,0.033531,0.006983,0.006744,-0.00446,-0.000963,-0.0095,0.002254,-0.000782,0.004561,0.012318,-0.006503,-0.004118,0.012489,-0.00037,-0.000723,0.010298
Balkan:scy305,0.118376,0.126941,0.010936,-0.014212,0.017849,-0.006693,-0.001175,-0.001154,0.00225,0.022415,-0.003897,0.007343,-0.013974,0.008257,-0.010179,0.000663,-0.005476,0.004181,0.016341,-0.008254,-0.009234,0.005812,-0.007395,0.007471,0.002754
Balkan:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12,0.135449,0.138112,0.01 5462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239
Balkan:Anatolia_IA_low_res:MA2197,0.112685,0.15436 ,0.029038,-0.031331,0.031083,-0.011435,-0.015981,-0.020768,-0.002863,0.036629,0.012017,-0.001798,-0.015312,-0.000688,-0.032166,-0.010077,0.021774,-0.004307,0.009804,-0.02001,-0.018842,-0.005193,0.000246,-0.008676,-0.005628
Balkan:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.04877 3,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Turk:RUS_Nomad_MA:DA142,0.087644,-0.090382,0.050534,0.031331,-0.036314,-0.008925,0.00376,0.007384,-0.009613,-0.016037,-0.007632,-0.001499,0.002527,-0.007019,-0.002172,-0.007425,-0.011735,0.004814,0.004022,-0.001,-0.004243,0.008779,0.001972,-0.00012,-0.002754
Turk:KAZ_Turk:DA89,0.0774,-0.071087,0.012822,0.022287,-0.053548,0.000279,0.005875,0.004154,-0.024543,-0.013485,-0.014453,0.003147,-0.000446,-0.009634,-0.000136,0.008618,-0.004563,0.003041,0.008925,-0.000875,-0.003993,0.001484,-0.012941,-0.008917,0.000599

[Jana]

Funny how you imply that the USSR and communism in general were some kind of Slavic supremacist or pan-Slavic systems. Lol. Russophobia really shows.

Soviet Union was anti Slavic in fact led by all kind of mongrels like Georgians and Jews.

[Lioncourt]

And yet many Muslims even outside the proper Arab world love to claim Arabian descent whereas in Europe people tend to distance themselves from the Slavs. See Romanians, Hungarians, Germans, Greeks, Albanians and even some Southern Slavs.

Romanians are Latin, the metaethnicity of philosophers and artists. Why would they want to be Slavic?
Hungarians speak the most unique language in Europe. Why would they want to be Slavic?
Germans have a metaethnicity named after them. Why would they want to be Slavic?
Greeks inherited an ancient civilization. Why would they want to be Slavic?
Albanians are in a war with Slavs since forever. Why would they want to be Slavic?

[Ion Basescul]

No I don't, I hate people who spread lies. We are mostly Slavic and whoever claims otherwise is a dirty liar. If we were Illyrian mostly I would promote and cherish that because I would love the most whatever is my main ancestry.

And I have less Med ancestry than Romanians and Moldovans despite living on Med sea and you living in east europe. Ukrainian mongrels don't count.

I cluster closest to Slovenians. Now move on.

Why would Romanians and Moldovans have less Med than they do, considering that autosomally confirmed Getae/Thracians were more Southerly than even modern Greeks? Imperial Romans were even more Southerly than both.

But a lot of people from Moldova who are not "Ukrainian mongrels" have less Med ancestry than you do btw. Eastern Romanians are also identical to us, so if they were present on G25, the Romanian average would have been quite different.



Moldovan:44618757251C01,0.125205,0.121864,0.042238 ,0.019703,0.024004,0.009761,-0.00141,0.002077,0.005931,-0.003645,-0.004384,-0.004946,0.012042,0.019405,-0.008415,-0.022275,-0.007562,-0.00152,0.00088,-0.003502,-0.001497,0.001978,0.003697,0.007832,-0.002634
Moldovan:44618757251C02,0.125205,0.126941,0.046386 ,0.031008,0.034776,0.019243,0.003525,0.008769,-0.001227,-0.012574,0.002436,0.001798,0.002676,0.015276,-0.016015,-0.016574,-0.004433,-0.000253,0.004274,-0.001876,-0.007362,-0.006677,-0.000986,-0.009037,0.000838
Moldovan:44618757252C01,0.129758,0.123895,0.053551 ,0.033592,0.033852,0.018965,0.012691,0.01523,0.001 227,-0.003462,-0.009743,-0.003297,0.001933,0.015138,-0.011808,0.00411,0.006389,-0.004561,0.005656,0.008004,-0.003743,0.002102,0.002835,-0.009519,0.001437
Moldovan:44618757252C02,0.125205,0.12491,0.050157, 0.028101,0.032006,0.009482,0.011986,-0.000462,-0.004295,-0.00164,-0.006496,0,0.001041,0.015001,-0.007465,-0.010209,0.004172,-0.006588,-0.002765,-0.003502,-0.004742,0.002473,0.006162,-0.001566,0.003712
Moldovan:44618757461C01,0.117238,0.133034,0.041106 ,0.012274,0.029236,0.010877,0.010105,0.008077,-0.001227,-0.005832,-0.001949,-0.003597,0.010258,0.013349,-0.007057,0.002519,0.007562,-0.003167,-0.003394,-0.00963,-0.010482,0.003339,0.003944,-0.001446,-0.000718
Moldovan:44618757461C02,0.130897,0.12491,0.051288, 0.020026,0.030467,0.006693,0.008695,0.008307,-0.008385,-0.004009,0.003085,-0.002248,0.001189,0.007432,-0.004072,-0.016706,-0.009257,0.004561,0.006285,-0.006378,-0.010606,0.001731,0.008627,-0.005181,-0.001078
Moldovan:44618757462C02,0.129758,0.120848,0.045254 ,0.024225,0.026466,0.013666,0.006345,0.015922,-0.00634,-0.007836,-0.001949,-0.000899,0.002825,0.014038,-0.004207,-0.003845,0.008605,0.007981,0.007668,0.001126,-0.004991,-0.001113,0.010106,0.005181,0.003233
Moldovan:44618757471C01,0.117238,0.123895,0.045254 ,0.029716,0.034776,0.005578,0.00611,0.007154,-0.006749,0.002005,-0.001949,-0.001798,0.00446,0.014726,-0.008143,-0.009546,0.005215,-0.002154,0.000251,0.003377,-0.005615,0.008532,0.007148,-0.000964,-0.004311
Moldovan:44618757471C02,0.117238,0.116786,0.040352 ,0.036176,0.026159,0.010877,0.004935,0.006,-0.000205,-0.004738,-0.000812,-0.001798,0.00446,0.014313,-0.014658,0.016839,0.017863,-0.004054,0.00176,0.001626,-0.005116,-0.003462,0.005053,-0.002169,-0.005868
Moldovan:44618757472C01,0.124067,0.132019,0.039598 ,0.023579,0.029236,0.016176,0.012221,0.003461,-0.006954,0,-0.003573,-0.003147,0.00223,0.014726,-0.015336,-0.003182,0.006519,0.00038,0.000754,-0.004502,0.002371,0.001731,0.00419,0.010845,0.0023 95
Moldovan:44618757472C02,0.117238,0.122879,0.044123 ,0.02907,0.022466,0.011992,0.00423,-0.001846,-0.003681,-0.000729,-0.003573,-0.010641,0.008771,0.018166,-0.014658,0.01538,0.021383,0.004181,0.003771,0.0015 01,0.002496,-0.002349,0.007888,-0.001928,-0.006347
Moldovan:44618757481C01,0.119514,0.121864,0.04978, 0.038114,0.028621,0.01255,0.001175,0.008077,-0.010226,-0.005649,-0.004872,-0.01094,0.005203,0.015551,-0.016151,0.002652,0.009909,0,0.00088,-0.001751,-0.004243,0.003339,0.003697,-0.00964,-0.006826
Moldovan:44618757481C02,0.127482,0.126941,0.033187 ,0.017765,0.024928,0.00251,0.011751,0.007154,-0.000818,0.001822,-0.006496,0.000899,0.004311,0.01734,-0.007872,-0.01074,-0.001825,0.002027,-0.002514,-0.004627,0.000374,-0.003833,0.001232,0.003976,0.004431
Moldovan:44618757482C01,0.130897,0.126941,0.056568 ,0.031008,0.03139,0.01255,0.00893,0.004615,0.00490 9,-0.013485,-0.005359,-0.004946,0.00446,0.013625,-0.003393,0.001856,0.005737,-0.004941,0.000377,-0.001126,-0.006489,-0.014591,-0.001479,-0.001687,0.010179
Moldovan:44618757482C02,0.132035,0.129988,0.053928 ,0.025517,0.035699,0.013945,0.006815,0.011307,0.00 8385,0.000547,-0.001137,0.004196,0.007879,0.013487,-0.011129,-0.009812,0.001695,0.001647,0.003394,-5e-04,-0.003244,0.003215,0.00419,0.001566,0.00012
Moldovan:44618757522C01,0.130897,0.11577,0.042615, 0.029716,0.031083,0.013666,0.005875,0.005538,0.000 614,-0.005649,0.000974,-0.006444,0.009812,0.013625,-0.013301,-0.005171,0.010561,-0.001774,-0.000754,-0.003001,-0.000125,-0.000124,0.009244,0.000723,0
Moldovan:44618757522C02,0.130897,0.119832,0.035826 ,0.027455,0.025851,0.011156,0.003055,0.016153,0.00 1023,0.005285,-0.008119,0.001349,0.004311,0.007982,-0.014929,0.007955,0.01708,-0.006334,0.002891,-0.008129,-0.006239,-0.003215,0.006162,0.003374,-0.007903
Moldovan:44618757581C02,0.1161,0.117801,0.042615,0 .021964,0.034468,0.011992,0.00752,0.009923,-0.004704,-0.013485,0.001624,-0.002098,0.010109,0.001376,-0.008822,0.005569,0.022687,-0.000633,-0.005405,0.002626,-0.005989,-0.009769,0.01023,0.001687,-0.002634
Moldovan:44618757582C01,0.118376,0.125926,0.045254 ,0.022933,0.029544,0.008646,0.010575,0.01523,0.002 863,-0.005103,-0.001786,-0.00045,0.000595,0.01913,-0.016286,-0.013259,-0.008214,-0.001647,0.012067,-0.003377,-0.008859,-0.005441,0.00419,-0.001084,-0.00012
Moldovan:44618757582C02,0.120652,0.128972,0.046386 ,0.028747,0.034468,0.011713,0.007755,0.010153,0.00 3681,-0.002187,-0.003735,-0.003897,0.009217,0.02202,-0.013301,-0.012994,-0.009257,-0.003927,0.004399,0.006003,-0.001248,0.000866,0.001602,-0.007953,0.001197
Moldovan:44618757801C01,0.122929,0.131003,0.047894 ,0.030362,0.023081,0.01506,0.0047,0.014307,-0.004295,-0.008201,-0.001299,0.001499,0.012042,0.012661,-0.019951,-0.012198,-0.005737,-0.004054,0.006788,-0.000875,-0.01148,0,0.002588,0.000964,0.005029
Moldovan:44618757801C02,0.125205,0.132019,0.046763 ,0.02584,0.036007,0.013666,0.005405,0.008769,0.006 545,-0.005467,-0.000974,-0.005545,0.005798,0.017203,-0.002986,-0.009812,-0.008605,-0.005321,0.004274,-5e-04,-0.004617,0.000124,0.00419,-0.001928,-0.000838
Moldovan:44618757802C01,0.120652,0.132019,0.029038 ,0.007106,0.025235,0.003626,0.00799,0.002538,-0.007158,-0.00328,-0.00065,-0.004046,-0.000743,0.015827,-0.010315,-0.005304,-0.004433,0.000127,0.005154,-0.006503,0.00574,-0.002102,-0.00037,0.000482,-0.003233
Moldovan:44618757802C02,0.124067,0.131003,0.045632 ,0.029716,0.019696,0.016176,0.011045,0.007384,0.00 1841,-0.006925,-0.002761,-0.003897,0.00773,0.017203,-0.0095,-0.009016,-0.01343,-0.002787,0.006285,-0.004377,-0.00262,0.002844,0.001356,-0.005784,0.001557
Moldovan:44618758061C01,0.125205,0.11577,0.0445,0. 036176,0.024004,0.008088,0.011986,0.006923,-0.001636,-0.008383,0.003573,-0.007793,0.003865,0.016515,-0.012622,-0.016043,-0.00678,-0.00076,-0.001885,-0.004002,-0.006114,0.004328,-0.002588,0.00723,0.002275
Moldovan:44618758061C02,0.12862,0.131003,0.034318, 0.025517,0.025235,0.006972,0.011516,0.009692,-0.002045,0.002005,-0.009906,-0.005845,0.009068,0.009083,-0.007736,0.003182,0.001565,-0.001014,0.005908,0.008379,-0.003743,-0.00136,0.001849,0.003856,-0.001796
Moldovan:44618758062C01,0.10927,0.113739,0.029038, 0.024225,0.023697,0.006972,0.011516,0.005307,0.003 272,0.002005,0.001624,-0.001049,0.009663,0.022157,-0.016558,-0.011005,-0.002477,0.004814,0.010307,0.004002,-0.005116,0.004822,0.005053,-0.003615,0.000479
Moldovan:44618758062C02,0.121791,0.126941,0.043746 ,0.027455,0.02462,0.005578,0.008695,-0.001154,-0.001227,-0.004556,0.004547,-0.002098,0.006244,0.010046,-0.005157,0.003447,0.003781,0.005574,0.008673,0.002 376,-0.007986,0.004204,0.002095,0.003494,-0.004191
Moldovan:44618758491C01,0.130897,0.121864,0.052043 ,0.028101,0.03416,0.009482,0.013161,0.010153,0.003 886,-0.002187,0.00406,-0.003747,0.008474,0.025598,-0.009365,-0.003315,0.011083,0.008235,0.001257,-0.004252,0.001747,-0.002102,-0.003204,-0.003976,0.003353
Moldovan:44618758491C02,0.129758,0.12491,0.040352, 0.02907,0.038161,0.000279,0.00846,0.005077,0.00306 8,0.009294,-0.008282,-0.004646,0.00446,0.03124,-0.007057,0.000796,0.003129,0.003421,0.006411,-0.011756,0.001622,0.001731,0.009983,0.003856,0.001 078
Moldovan:44618758492C01,0.134311,0.118817,0.060716 ,0.038114,0.030775,0.021475,0.01034,0.006923,-0.004909,-0.007472,-0.000325,-0.009741,0.007136,0.017065,-0.012215,-0.003845,0.00352,-0.001267,0.000377,0.007253,-0.003743,0.000989,0.001972,-0.008917,-0.004191
Moldovan:44618758492C02,0.130897,0.123895,0.042238 ,0.02584,0.026159,0.010598,0.00846,0.00923,-0.001432,-0.005649,-0.001624,-0.003447,0.004757,0.012661,-0.011129,0.004243,0.006258,0.002534,0.005279,-0.003627,-0.001123,0.00136,0.006532,-0.000602,-0.001557

[Bosniensis]

Let's shut up and contribute

I put DEU_MA to spreadsheet in order to cover additional Steppe ancestry for Balkan part and used various references instead of taking an average. I think this should be answer of the question



Bosniak (me)

Distance to: Bosniensis_scaled
0.06424718 Balkan:scy305
0.06667117 Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313
0.06952482 Balkan:DEU_MA
0.07028856 Balkan:scy197
0.07110699 Balkan:scy192
0.07447131 Balkan:scy300
0.07760517 Balkan:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.08012960 Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.08854950 Balkan:Anatolia_IA_low_res:MA2197
0.09066861 Slav:KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29
0.10055997 Balkan:BGR_IA
0.23426212 Turk:KAZ_Turk:DA89
0.24294581 Turk:RUS_Nomad_MA:DA142

Target: Bosniensis_scaled
Distance: 2.1937% / 0.02193654
59.2 Balkan
40.8 Slav

[Jana]

Bosniensis is 25% Gorani from Kosovo, funny how he tries to present himself as proper Bosniak.

[Kaspias]

Bosniak (me)

Distance to: Bosniensis_scaled
0.06424718 Balkan:scy305
0.06667117 Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313
0.06952482 Balkan:DEU_MA
0.07028856 Balkan:scy197
0.07110699 Balkan:scy192
0.07447131 Balkan:scy300
0.07760517 Balkan:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.08012960 Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.08854950 Balkan:Anatolia_IA_low_res:MA2197
0.09066861 Slav:KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29
0.10055997 Balkan:BGR_IA
0.23426212 Turk:KAZ_Turk:DA89
0.24294581 Turk:RUS_Nomad_MA:DA142

Target: Bosniensis_scaled
Distance: 2.1937% / 0.02193654
59.2 Balkan
40.8 Slav


Distance to: Kaspias_scaled
0.06636759 Balkan:scy305
0.07288750 Balkan:scy192
0.07909031 Balkan:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.08106465 Balkan:scy300
0.08652372 Balkan:scy197
0.09702555 Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313
0.10374470 Balkan:BGR_IA
0.10688671 Balkan:Anatolia_IA_low_res:MA2197
0.11470351 Balkan:DEU_MA
0.13777589 Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.14343217 Slav:KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29
0.17675535 Turk:KAZ_Turk:DA89
0.19416484 Turk:RUS_Nomad_MA:DA142

Target: Kaspias_scaled
Distance: 2.8793% / 0.02879269
60.2 Balkan
29.8 Turk
10.0 Slav

[Leto]

Romanians are Latin, the metaethnicity of philosophers and artists. Why would they want to be Slavic?
Hungarians speak the most unique language in Europe. Why would they want to be Slavic?
Germans have a metaethnicity named after them. Why would they want to be Slavic?
Greeks inherited an ancient civilization. Why would they want to be Slavic?
Albanians are in a war with Slavs since forever. Why would they want to be Slavic?
I never said they were or should be literally Slavs. But those groups do have varying degrees of Slavic cultural and genetic influence.

By the way, I'm not a Slavic supremacist whatsoever, I think when Byzantium (my spiritual civilization) was holding Ecumenical Councils and building cathedrals our folks were basically nothing. Not saying living in caves or swinging from trees of course but no remarkable civilizational achievements either.

[Ion Basescul]

Let's shut up and contribute

I put DEU_MA to spreadsheet in order to cover additional Steppe ancestry for Balkan part and used various references instead of taking an average. I think this should be answer of the question

https://i.ibb.co/KwqvCky/base.png

SS


Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.08145 8,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.00 4704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
Slav:KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29,0.134311,0.123895, 0.076555,0.06783,0.044624,0.026774,0.013161,0.0122 3,-0.003681,-0.036083,-0.011367,-0.012139,0.025718,0.027937,-0.019272,-0.001326,0.010431,-0.00114,0.003771,0.013381,-0.00025,-0.007666,0.008874,-0.007591,0.006826
Balkan:BGR_IA,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Balkan:scy192,0.124067,0.137096,0.015462,-0.020026,0.015695,-0.012829,0.00235,0.000692,0.001023,0.025878,0.0094 19,-0.000599,-0.006987,-0.008945,-0.013301,-0.009679,0.012908,0.004307,-0.000377,0.003502,-0.011729,0.009892,-0.004314,-0.004338,0.001796
Balkan:scy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
Balkan:scy300,0.1161,0.140143,0.025644,-0.031331,0.016618,-0.005299,-0.001645,-0.007384,0.007772,0.033531,0.006983,0.006744,-0.00446,-0.000963,-0.0095,0.002254,-0.000782,0.004561,0.012318,-0.006503,-0.004118,0.012489,-0.00037,-0.000723,0.010298
Balkan:scy305,0.118376,0.126941,0.010936,-0.014212,0.017849,-0.006693,-0.001175,-0.001154,0.00225,0.022415,-0.003897,0.007343,-0.013974,0.008257,-0.010179,0.000663,-0.005476,0.004181,0.016341,-0.008254,-0.009234,0.005812,-0.007395,0.007471,0.002754
Balkan:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12,0.135449,0.138112,0.01 5462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239
Balkan:Anatolia_IA_low_res:MA2197,0.112685,0.15436 ,0.029038,-0.031331,0.031083,-0.011435,-0.015981,-0.020768,-0.002863,0.036629,0.012017,-0.001798,-0.015312,-0.000688,-0.032166,-0.010077,0.021774,-0.004307,0.009804,-0.02001,-0.018842,-0.005193,0.000246,-0.008676,-0.005628
Balkan:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.04877 3,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Turk:RUS_Nomad_MA:DA142,0.087644,-0.090382,0.050534,0.031331,-0.036314,-0.008925,0.00376,0.007384,-0.009613,-0.016037,-0.007632,-0.001499,0.002527,-0.007019,-0.002172,-0.007425,-0.011735,0.004814,0.004022,-0.001,-0.004243,0.008779,0.001972,-0.00012,-0.002754
Turk:KAZ_Turk:DA89,0.0774,-0.071087,0.012822,0.022287,-0.053548,0.000279,0.005875,0.004154,-0.024543,-0.013485,-0.014453,0.003147,-0.000446,-0.009634,-0.000136,0.008618,-0.004563,0.003041,0.008925,-0.000875,-0.003993,0.001484,-0.012941,-0.008917,0.000599


Now try again with the new Moldovan average from G25. Davidski updated with samples from Central and Northern Moldova.
https://bga101.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25.html

[Kamal900]

Soviet Union was anti Slavic in fact led by all kind of mongrels lile Georgians and Jews.

Well, yeah. I mean, a lot of the top politicians during the early days of the soviet union were Jewish according to Putin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pDtgWUtdUM

[Jana]

Why would Romanians and Moldovans have less Med than they do, considering that autosomally confirmed Getae/Thracians were more Southerly than even modern Greeks? Imperial Romans were even more Southerly than both.

But a lot of people from Moldova who are not "Ukrainian mongrels" have less Med ancestry than you do btw. Eastern Romanians are also identical to us, so if they were present on G25, the Romanian average would have been quite different.



Moldovan:44618757251C01,0.125205,0.121864,0.042238 ,0.019703,0.024004,0.009761,-0.00141,0.002077,0.005931,-0.003645,-0.004384,-0.004946,0.012042,0.019405,-0.008415,-0.022275,-0.007562,-0.00152,0.00088,-0.003502,-0.001497,0.001978,0.003697,0.007832,-0.002634
Moldovan:44618757251C02,0.125205,0.126941,0.046386 ,0.031008,0.034776,0.019243,0.003525,0.008769,-0.001227,-0.012574,0.002436,0.001798,0.002676,0.015276,-0.016015,-0.016574,-0.004433,-0.000253,0.004274,-0.001876,-0.007362,-0.006677,-0.000986,-0.009037,0.000838
Moldovan:44618757252C01,0.129758,0.123895,0.053551 ,0.033592,0.033852,0.018965,0.012691,0.01523,0.001 227,-0.003462,-0.009743,-0.003297,0.001933,0.015138,-0.011808,0.00411,0.006389,-0.004561,0.005656,0.008004,-0.003743,0.002102,0.002835,-0.009519,0.001437
Moldovan:44618757252C02,0.125205,0.12491,0.050157, 0.028101,0.032006,0.009482,0.011986,-0.000462,-0.004295,-0.00164,-0.006496,0,0.001041,0.015001,-0.007465,-0.010209,0.004172,-0.006588,-0.002765,-0.003502,-0.004742,0.002473,0.006162,-0.001566,0.003712
Moldovan:44618757461C01,0.117238,0.133034,0.041106 ,0.012274,0.029236,0.010877,0.010105,0.008077,-0.001227,-0.005832,-0.001949,-0.003597,0.010258,0.013349,-0.007057,0.002519,0.007562,-0.003167,-0.003394,-0.00963,-0.010482,0.003339,0.003944,-0.001446,-0.000718
Moldovan:44618757461C02,0.130897,0.12491,0.051288, 0.020026,0.030467,0.006693,0.008695,0.008307,-0.008385,-0.004009,0.003085,-0.002248,0.001189,0.007432,-0.004072,-0.016706,-0.009257,0.004561,0.006285,-0.006378,-0.010606,0.001731,0.008627,-0.005181,-0.001078
Moldovan:44618757462C02,0.129758,0.120848,0.045254 ,0.024225,0.026466,0.013666,0.006345,0.015922,-0.00634,-0.007836,-0.001949,-0.000899,0.002825,0.014038,-0.004207,-0.003845,0.008605,0.007981,0.007668,0.001126,-0.004991,-0.001113,0.010106,0.005181,0.003233
Moldovan:44618757471C01,0.117238,0.123895,0.045254 ,0.029716,0.034776,0.005578,0.00611,0.007154,-0.006749,0.002005,-0.001949,-0.001798,0.00446,0.014726,-0.008143,-0.009546,0.005215,-0.002154,0.000251,0.003377,-0.005615,0.008532,0.007148,-0.000964,-0.004311
Moldovan:44618757471C02,0.117238,0.116786,0.040352 ,0.036176,0.026159,0.010877,0.004935,0.006,-0.000205,-0.004738,-0.000812,-0.001798,0.00446,0.014313,-0.014658,0.016839,0.017863,-0.004054,0.00176,0.001626,-0.005116,-0.003462,0.005053,-0.002169,-0.005868
Moldovan:44618757472C01,0.124067,0.132019,0.039598 ,0.023579,0.029236,0.016176,0.012221,0.003461,-0.006954,0,-0.003573,-0.003147,0.00223,0.014726,-0.015336,-0.003182,0.006519,0.00038,0.000754,-0.004502,0.002371,0.001731,0.00419,0.010845,0.0023 95
Moldovan:44618757472C02,0.117238,0.122879,0.044123 ,0.02907,0.022466,0.011992,0.00423,-0.001846,-0.003681,-0.000729,-0.003573,-0.010641,0.008771,0.018166,-0.014658,0.01538,0.021383,0.004181,0.003771,0.0015 01,0.002496,-0.002349,0.007888,-0.001928,-0.006347
Moldovan:44618757481C01,0.119514,0.121864,0.04978, 0.038114,0.028621,0.01255,0.001175,0.008077,-0.010226,-0.005649,-0.004872,-0.01094,0.005203,0.015551,-0.016151,0.002652,0.009909,0,0.00088,-0.001751,-0.004243,0.003339,0.003697,-0.00964,-0.006826
Moldovan:44618757481C02,0.127482,0.126941,0.033187 ,0.017765,0.024928,0.00251,0.011751,0.007154,-0.000818,0.001822,-0.006496,0.000899,0.004311,0.01734,-0.007872,-0.01074,-0.001825,0.002027,-0.002514,-0.004627,0.000374,-0.003833,0.001232,0.003976,0.004431
Moldovan:44618757482C01,0.130897,0.126941,0.056568 ,0.031008,0.03139,0.01255,0.00893,0.004615,0.00490 9,-0.013485,-0.005359,-0.004946,0.00446,0.013625,-0.003393,0.001856,0.005737,-0.004941,0.000377,-0.001126,-0.006489,-0.014591,-0.001479,-0.001687,0.010179
Moldovan:44618757482C02,0.132035,0.129988,0.053928 ,0.025517,0.035699,0.013945,0.006815,0.011307,0.00 8385,0.000547,-0.001137,0.004196,0.007879,0.013487,-0.011129,-0.009812,0.001695,0.001647,0.003394,-5e-04,-0.003244,0.003215,0.00419,0.001566,0.00012
Moldovan:44618757522C01,0.130897,0.11577,0.042615, 0.029716,0.031083,0.013666,0.005875,0.005538,0.000 614,-0.005649,0.000974,-0.006444,0.009812,0.013625,-0.013301,-0.005171,0.010561,-0.001774,-0.000754,-0.003001,-0.000125,-0.000124,0.009244,0.000723,0
Moldovan:44618757522C02,0.130897,0.119832,0.035826 ,0.027455,0.025851,0.011156,0.003055,0.016153,0.00 1023,0.005285,-0.008119,0.001349,0.004311,0.007982,-0.014929,0.007955,0.01708,-0.006334,0.002891,-0.008129,-0.006239,-0.003215,0.006162,0.003374,-0.007903
Moldovan:44618757581C02,0.1161,0.117801,0.042615,0 .021964,0.034468,0.011992,0.00752,0.009923,-0.004704,-0.013485,0.001624,-0.002098,0.010109,0.001376,-0.008822,0.005569,0.022687,-0.000633,-0.005405,0.002626,-0.005989,-0.009769,0.01023,0.001687,-0.002634
Moldovan:44618757582C01,0.118376,0.125926,0.045254 ,0.022933,0.029544,0.008646,0.010575,0.01523,0.002 863,-0.005103,-0.001786,-0.00045,0.000595,0.01913,-0.016286,-0.013259,-0.008214,-0.001647,0.012067,-0.003377,-0.008859,-0.005441,0.00419,-0.001084,-0.00012
Moldovan:44618757582C02,0.120652,0.128972,0.046386 ,0.028747,0.034468,0.011713,0.007755,0.010153,0.00 3681,-0.002187,-0.003735,-0.003897,0.009217,0.02202,-0.013301,-0.012994,-0.009257,-0.003927,0.004399,0.006003,-0.001248,0.000866,0.001602,-0.007953,0.001197
Moldovan:44618757801C01,0.122929,0.131003,0.047894 ,0.030362,0.023081,0.01506,0.0047,0.014307,-0.004295,-0.008201,-0.001299,0.001499,0.012042,0.012661,-0.019951,-0.012198,-0.005737,-0.004054,0.006788,-0.000875,-0.01148,0,0.002588,0.000964,0.005029
Moldovan:44618757801C02,0.125205,0.132019,0.046763 ,0.02584,0.036007,0.013666,0.005405,0.008769,0.006 545,-0.005467,-0.000974,-0.005545,0.005798,0.017203,-0.002986,-0.009812,-0.008605,-0.005321,0.004274,-5e-04,-0.004617,0.000124,0.00419,-0.001928,-0.000838
Moldovan:44618757802C01,0.120652,0.132019,0.029038 ,0.007106,0.025235,0.003626,0.00799,0.002538,-0.007158,-0.00328,-0.00065,-0.004046,-0.000743,0.015827,-0.010315,-0.005304,-0.004433,0.000127,0.005154,-0.006503,0.00574,-0.002102,-0.00037,0.000482,-0.003233
Moldovan:44618757802C02,0.124067,0.131003,0.045632 ,0.029716,0.019696,0.016176,0.011045,0.007384,0.00 1841,-0.006925,-0.002761,-0.003897,0.00773,0.017203,-0.0095,-0.009016,-0.01343,-0.002787,0.006285,-0.004377,-0.00262,0.002844,0.001356,-0.005784,0.001557
Moldovan:44618758061C01,0.125205,0.11577,0.0445,0. 036176,0.024004,0.008088,0.011986,0.006923,-0.001636,-0.008383,0.003573,-0.007793,0.003865,0.016515,-0.012622,-0.016043,-0.00678,-0.00076,-0.001885,-0.004002,-0.006114,0.004328,-0.002588,0.00723,0.002275
Moldovan:44618758061C02,0.12862,0.131003,0.034318, 0.025517,0.025235,0.006972,0.011516,0.009692,-0.002045,0.002005,-0.009906,-0.005845,0.009068,0.009083,-0.007736,0.003182,0.001565,-0.001014,0.005908,0.008379,-0.003743,-0.00136,0.001849,0.003856,-0.001796
Moldovan:44618758062C01,0.10927,0.113739,0.029038, 0.024225,0.023697,0.006972,0.011516,0.005307,0.003 272,0.002005,0.001624,-0.001049,0.009663,0.022157,-0.016558,-0.011005,-0.002477,0.004814,0.010307,0.004002,-0.005116,0.004822,0.005053,-0.003615,0.000479
Moldovan:44618758062C02,0.121791,0.126941,0.043746 ,0.027455,0.02462,0.005578,0.008695,-0.001154,-0.001227,-0.004556,0.004547,-0.002098,0.006244,0.010046,-0.005157,0.003447,0.003781,0.005574,0.008673,0.002 376,-0.007986,0.004204,0.002095,0.003494,-0.004191
Moldovan:44618758491C01,0.130897,0.121864,0.052043 ,0.028101,0.03416,0.009482,0.013161,0.010153,0.003 886,-0.002187,0.00406,-0.003747,0.008474,0.025598,-0.009365,-0.003315,0.011083,0.008235,0.001257,-0.004252,0.001747,-0.002102,-0.003204,-0.003976,0.003353
Moldovan:44618758491C02,0.129758,0.12491,0.040352, 0.02907,0.038161,0.000279,0.00846,0.005077,0.00306 8,0.009294,-0.008282,-0.004646,0.00446,0.03124,-0.007057,0.000796,0.003129,0.003421,0.006411,-0.011756,0.001622,0.001731,0.009983,0.003856,0.001 078
Moldovan:44618758492C01,0.134311,0.118817,0.060716 ,0.038114,0.030775,0.021475,0.01034,0.006923,-0.004909,-0.007472,-0.000325,-0.009741,0.007136,0.017065,-0.012215,-0.003845,0.00352,-0.001267,0.000377,0.007253,-0.003743,0.000989,0.001972,-0.008917,-0.004191
Moldovan:44618758492C02,0.130897,0.123895,0.042238 ,0.02584,0.026159,0.010598,0.00846,0.00923,-0.001432,-0.005649,-0.001624,-0.003447,0.004757,0.012661,-0.011129,0.004243,0.006258,0.002534,0.005279,-0.003627,-0.001123,0.00136,0.006532,-0.000602,-0.001557


Yeah, and? Croats are less med than Moldovans on average.
I am predominetely Croat from deepest south/med area. And I have some German so my Slavic would be even higher without that. Plus I have minor Bosniak and Serb too.

[Konstantinos]

for some R1a subclades it's quite possible, for i2a-din not. it's way too young. In the 1st century BC, Dacians already had their kingdom, and around the same time, one man who is the ancestor of all today's I-Y3120 was alive. Even among iron age Ukrainian and Moldovan samples there isn't any i2a-din, let alone areas further south.

I know about TMRCA of I2-Din, it shows that I2-Din expanded with Slavs. What interests me is upstream, where the ancestor of I2-Din lived. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think upstream clades exist variable in Romania, Ukraine, Poland. That could mean that in the case of Romania, if I2-Din mutated there it could have later been swept by Slavs on their way?

[Leto]

Well, yeah. I mean, a lot of the top politicians during the early days of the soviet union were Jewish according to Putin.
[video=youtube;-pDtgWUtdUM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pDtgWUtdUM
Let's not go into that if you know what I mean ;)

[Bosniensis]

Distance to: Kaspias_scaled
0.06636759 Balkan:scy305
0.07288750 Balkan:scy192
0.07909031 Balkan:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.08106465 Balkan:scy300
0.08652372 Balkan:scy197
0.09702555 Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313
0.10374470 Balkan:BGR_IA
0.10688671 Balkan:Anatolia_IA_low_res:MA2197
0.11470351 Balkan:DEU_MA
0.13777589 Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.14343217 Slav:KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29
0.17675535 Turk:KAZ_Turk:DA89
0.19416484 Turk:RUS_Nomad_MA:DA142

Target: Kaspias_scaled
Distance: 2.8793% / 0.02879269
60.2 Balkan
29.8 Turk
10.0 Slav

Let's be fair here:

0.06424718 Balkan:scy305
0.06667117 Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313

HRV_IA is Iron Age sample, therefore we had to mix with native Illyrians (HRV_IA)

We have two major Haplogroups I2, R1a.

Does anyone here believe that R1a were Illyrians? No.

It was I2a1b who were carriers of original Balkan Autosomal otherwise I could not get this much HRV_IA

Either I2a1 or R1a had to be original carrier of Mediterranean Balkan Autosomal, and we have a hint among Sardinians who are 100% Mediterranean even if different branch of I2

This is basic math.....

I2 must be NATIVE and not SLAVIC

[Ion Basescul]

I speak shitty Romanian but I appreciate the language. I took a semester in college. I actually think it sounds better than English.

All languages are beautiful in their own way.

[Kamal900]

Let's not go into that if you know what I mean ;)

I know. Just sayin, that's all.

[Jana]

Pre-Slavic samples from Croatia had main Albo clades like J2b2 and eastern R1b.

Your Gorani side made you more wog. But even they are Slavs.

[Coastal Elite]

I was wondering, are there any Slavs here willing to make the case that a Slavic language, any Slavic language, objectively sounds better than Romanian? I mean, if you really proud of your cultural you'll make the case.

[Kaspias]

Now try again with the new Moldovan average from G25. Davidski updated with samples from Central and Northern Moldova.
https://bga101.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25.html

It makes more sense now. I wish he had separated Moldovan samples according to the region though, it seems there is a significant difference.

https://i.ibb.co/SmhDgn0/Moldova.png

[Leto]

I was wondering, are there any Slavs here willing to make the case that a Slavic language, any Slavic language, objectively sounds better than Romanian? I mean, if you really proud of your cultural you'll make the case.
To me Romanian sounds like a Slavic language but nothing can be understood. It's phonology is pretty Eastern overall. Though when I was listening to some Eastern Orthodox chants and prayers in Romanian I found an astonishing number of Church Slavic words used in those texts.

[Jana]

I was wondering, are there any Slavs here willing to make the case that a Slavic language, any Slavic language, objectively sounds better than Romanian? I mean, if you really proud of your cultural you'll make the case.

It is dearer to us knowing we really descend from people who traveled south from north and brought our language, not some foreign conquerors that left very minor impact in you like in case of Romanians.

[Lioncourt]

And it seems you are not ashamed of your Slavic identity.

No of course, spreading Slavicness brought glory to Bulgarians.

[Coastal Elite]

To me Romanian sounds like a Slavic language but nothing can be understood. It's phonology is pretty Eastern overall.

I heard my grandparents speak it all my life. It has a slight Slavic influence but sounds more like Italian to me. It wouldn't be so close to Latin if it was a true Slavic language.

[bained]

No of course, spreading Slavicness brought glory to Bulgarians.

They spread Bulgarian, not slavic. Bulgarian language, not Old Church Slavonic.

[Ion Basescul]

Yeah, and? Croats are less med than Moldovans on average.
I am predominetely Croat from deepest south/med area. And I have some German so my Slavic would be even higher without that. Plus I have minor Bosniak and Serb too.

And you are the one who was questioning why would Romanians/Moldovans have so much Med ancestry in Eastern Europe when literally Iron Age samples from different sites all across the Moldova - Ukrainian Budjak - Bulgarian continuum, not to also mention the "Scythians" from Eastern Hungary at the border with Romania, all scored more Med than that. While you scorn at these people for not being Northern migrants, I personally think quite highly of them being able to upkeep the genetic continuity on this land.

[pulstar]

I really understand Romanians here. As small ethnic group (related to Slavs as whole) has to hold side with their superiors and financiers from the West. But that's nothing different from Greeks and Albanians too. Its about survival.

[Ford]

I was wondering, are there any Slavs here willing to make the case that a Slavic language, any Slavic language, objectively sounds better than Romanian? I mean, if you really proud of your cultural you'll make the case.

This premise makes no sense. My mother tongue will always be held most dear to me but that doesn't mean I can't admit there are better sounding languages out there.

[Ion Basescul]

It makes more sense now. I wish he had separated Moldovan samples according to the region though, it seems there is a significant difference.

https://i.ibb.co/SmhDgn0/Moldova.png

I have, because I donated those academic kits to Davidski.
If you need them for future reference:
R.Moldova is identical to the new Moldovan average, which is the average of all the available kits.
R.Moldova_North_and_Centre is the average of only new academic kits.
R.Moldova_South is the old average of academic kits from Stefan Voda in the South.




R.Moldova,0.122960,0.127667,0.040145,0.020064,0.02 7646,0.008354,0.007173,0.006615,-0.000974,-0.002031,-0.001744,-0.001970,0.005033,0.014087,-0.010887,-0.003700,0.004120,-0.000356,0.003415,-0.001129,-0.004067,0.000271,0.003510,-0.000485,-0.000319
R.Moldova_North_and_Centre,0.123477,0.124910,0.042 908,0.025864,0.028222,0.010639,0.007503,0.007555,-0.001424,-0.003773,-0.001859,-0.002847,0.005919,0.014456,-0.011029,-0.005034,0.002328,-0.000450,0.003156,-0.001468,-0.004155,0.000202,0.004336,-0.000062,-0.000918
R.Moldova_South,0.121563,0.137300,0.026436,-0.001550,0.023081,0.000084,0.004512,0.003185,-0.001064,0.003390,-0.000341,0.002053,0.002512,0.009868,-0.011563,-0.001910,0.008032,-0.000367,0.004412,-0.000588,-0.004804,0.001781,0.002021,0.000157,-0.000048
R.Moldova_South_Gagauz,0.1216643,0.1343884,0.02002 94,-0.002907,0.0195591,0.0013326,0.0068674,0.0046922,-0.003636,0.0036244,-0.0016419,-0.0020814,-0.0014701,0.010123,-0.0104504,-0.0047437,0.0034333,-0.0002674,0.0036034,-0.0029041,-0.0064884,-0.0009343,0.0036838,-0.0049268,6.66e-05

[Coastal Elite]

It is dearer to us knowing we really descend from people who traveled south from north and brought our language, not some foreign conquerors that left very minor impact in you like in case of Romanians.

I don't mind Roman influence if it results in what I consider a beautiful language. I don't mind adopting aspects of other cultures that are positive, I'm not that prideful. Quite frankly, I'd much rather have Roman influence than Slavic.

[Jana]

And you are the one who was questioning why would Romanians/Moldovans have so much Med ancestry in Eastern Europe when literally Iron Age samples from different sites all across the Moldova - Ukrainian Budjak - Bulgarian continuum, not to also mention the "Scythians" from Eastern Hungary at the border with Romania, all scored more Med than that. While you scorn at these people for not being Northern migrants, I personally think quite highly of them being able to upkeep the genetic continuity on this land.

Nobody has problem with Moldovans and so far all south slav members showed interest and respect towards them.

We never called you fake Latins or Dacians. But some Romanians deny and try to deconstruct our Slavic dna and identity out of some complexes and I don't need to tolerate that.

[Jana]

I don't mind Roman influence if it results in what I consider a beautiful language. I don't mind adopting aspects of other cultures that are positive, I'm not that prideful. Quite frankly, I'd much rather have Roman influence than Slavic.

Good for you.

[Konstantinos]

Can we revert back to topic and stop these idiotic discussions? Feiichy you opened your own thread in frustration to this one, take your arguments there along with anyone who wants to follow suit.

[Jana]

Can we revert back to topic and stop these idiotic discussions? Feiichy you opened your own thread in frustration to this one, take your arguments there along with anyone who wants to follow suit.

My thread was deleted but I don't care, ask mods to remove offtopic here, everything that needed to be said was said.

Goodbye.

[Coastal Elite]

This premise makes no sense. My mother tongue will always be held most dear to me but that doesn't mean I can't admit there are better sounding languages out there.

It's an honest question. No premise needed. You have every right to like you language.

[rero]

I was wondering, are there any Slavs here willing to make the case that a Slavic language, any Slavic language, objectively sounds better than Romanian? I mean, if you really proud of your cultural you'll make the case.

There cannot be any objectivity in the question if someone perceives another language as better-sounding. You demand objectivity in a highly subjective question and I'm surprised you dont seem to see this obvious contradiction.

[Coastal Elite]

There cannot be any objectivity in the question if someone perceives another language as better-sounding. You demand objectivity in a highly subjective question and I'm surprised you dont seem to see this obvious contradiction.

I wanted people to think objectively, but you are right, that is asking way too much in a Balkan themed thread. That is for us Americans to do. It's actually not hard to answer if you aren't a partisan hack.

[Ion Basescul]

Has anyone explored the idea that Romanians are less Slavic than Bulgarians?

I'm mostly talking about southern Romanians who are no more/marginally more "northern" than northern Bulgarians and slightly more "northern" than southern Bulgarians. The idea so far is that their more northern genetic position equals more Slavic influence.

However, Bulgarians' pre-Slavic base is (probably) like pre-Slavic Greeks for the south and Thracians/Greeks/Romanized natives for the north. (South) Romanians' pre-Slavic base is (probably) like Dacians/Getae. Now Thracians-Dacians-Getae were all closely related, like sibling ethnic groups but their genetic cline could be sharp since the northern in East Balkans the more you encountered very genetically "north" groups(Scythians, etc.). This in essence means that Bulgarians could end up more "southern" genetically even with greater Slavic influence, because their starting position would be significantly more Med. E.g. 66% Greek + 34% Slavic would still be more "southern" than 75% Dacian + 25% Slavic(numbers are examples, don't take literally).

This could also include Y haplogroups I2 and (less so) R1a. If I'm not mistaken I2 shows its greatest diversity in Romania along with Ukraine. This is mostly attributed to the Slavic migrations and the closer to the homeland the more diversity. However there's no reason not to assume that I2 was equally represented and diverse in pre-Romanians/Romanians(whether they existed there) prior to Slavic migrations. It's not very likely that I2 would be so diverse in Romania if it indeed mostly migrated there.

A final note: the starting assumption is that Romanians are native to at least southern Romania and not migrants there from much southern. I stress this because it's still not clear where they originated. That's what I deem most likely from the current knowledge we have so this hypothesis assumes this fact.


You probably waited for this long enough. The thing is that there are Iron Age samples from Moldova, the border of Ukraine with Romania and Moldova, and the border of Hungary with Romania. All, but DA195 from Hungary who looks mixed with genuine Scythians, are more Northern-shifted than the Thracians, but they are still Southern-shifted compared to modern Romanians or Bulgarians.

Let's take a look at their ancient components:

https://i.imgur.com/J5JCqqS.png

You wanted to model Bulgarians and Romanians with only local samples, so we can then go on and model Bulgarians as a mix of only Thracian, Ancient Greek and Slavic (bear in mind that the Slavic samples are not local, so we are assuming that they are similar to the Slavic profile of the Slavic settlers in these countries):


<tbody>
Distance to:
Bulgarian


0.06940795
SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569


0.07392011
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1


0.07818019
Bulgaria-IronAge:BGR_IA:I5769


0.09610221
Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215


0.09842911
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


0.10975973
Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208


</tbody>


<tbody>
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.8379% / 0.01837930




58.8
SlavicMigration


41.2
Greek-IronAge


0.0
Bulgaria-IronAge


</tbody>



<tbody>
Distance to:
Macedonian


0.06709069
SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569


0.06945656
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1


0.08105599
Bulgaria-IronAge:BGR_IA:I5769


0.09391851
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


0.09839145
Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215


0.11372693
Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208


</tbody>


<tbody>
Target: Macedonian
Distance: 1.5533% / 0.01553341




57.2
SlavicMigration


42.8
Greek-IronAge


0.0
Bulgaria-IronAge

</tbody>


Now, we can do the same for Romanians. We will add the Getae from Moldova, the one from Ukraine at the Eastern border with Romania, plus what I am assuming could be Dacians from Eastern Hungary at the Western border with Romania. As opposed the Bulgarian model, we are not including Ancient Greeks and Thracians:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Romanian


0.02784575
Hungary-RomaniaBorder:Scythian_HUN:DA195


0.05068302
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy305


0.05511109
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy192


0.05560577
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy197


0.05958970
Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12


0.06136637
SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569


0.06194133
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy300


0.06423575
Hungary-RomaniaBorder:Scythian_HUN:DA198


0.06519750
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1


0.09042053
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


</tbody>


<tbody>
Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.1148% / 0.01114840




36.0
SlavicMigration


35.8
Moldova-IronAge


22.4
Hungary-RomaniaBorder


5.8
Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge

</tbody>



<tbody>
Distance to:
Moldovan


0.03926802
Hungary-RomaniaBorder:Scythian_HUN:DA195


0.04674007
SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569


0.05010457
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1


0.06485057
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy305


0.07034069
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy192


0.07132414
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy197


0.07377153
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


0.07568627
Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12


0.07701425
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy300


0.08010332
Hungary-RomaniaBorder:Scythian_HUN:DA198

</tbody>


<tbody>
Target: Moldovan
Distance: 1.3040% / 0.01304026




55.4
SlavicMigration


44.6
Moldova-IronAge


0.0
Hungary-RomaniaBorder


0.0
Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge

</tbody>


So that's how they are modelled with only local samples.

With everything thrown in, we get:

https://i.imgur.com/vRW12TF.png


If we assume that DA195 is a mixed Scythian and irrelevant as a source in Romanians, then this is how they all score:

https://i.imgur.com/yvQ4YCr.png

[Mingle]

This question rests mostly on assumptions, since I too believe we lack a lot of relevant DNA. I wanted to share my thoughts on this since it seems a foregone conclusion that Romanians are more Slavic than Bulgarians, which I find dubious based on a couple of predictions I laid out. I think it's an interesting question for now and want some quality opinions.

Romania is only considered more Slavic when you factor in non-Wallachians/Southern Romanians. Your comparison in the OP was mainly just between Southern Romania and Bulgaria. Southern Romania and Bulgaria are roughly equal in Slavic input. When you factor in the rest of the country, the Romania is more Slavic.

[Mingle]

How can I check the ancient samples since we don't have Ancient Greek Dna? We have Mycenaean DNA, Ancient Greeks were 1000 years after that and Slavs came another 1000 years after that. How are we to know how Greeks or anyone in the Balkans was without any relevant DNA? We can only predict, and my predictions are that not even mainland Greeks were South Italian-like at any point, Dacians and others of similar latitude were much northern than that.

The Greek samples from Iberia Empuries and maybe Roopkund (India) are Ancient Greek samples and score like Myceneans. Though I recall someone saying one of the Roopkund samples looked Slavic admixed and saying it was probably from Ottoman Era Greeks.

[Tommie]

To me Romanian sounds like a Slavic language...
Does it really?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDjtWlCU0uI



And here's Miss Romania 2011, speaking broken English, no fake accent whatsoever.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrJPc4J56Sw

If you ask me, that doesn't sound like a stereotypical Slavic accent at all.

[Mingle]

And yet many Muslims even outside the proper Arab world love to claim Arabian descent whereas in Europe people tend to distance themselves from the Slavs. See Romanians, Hungarians, Germans, Greeks, Albanians and even some Southern Slavs.

Those Muslims don't identify as Arab. They just claim patrilineage from Muhammad since he's the holiest Islamic figure. If you look at the countries that Arabs neighbor (Turks & Iranians), calling them "Arab" is basically an insult. Slavic countries are among the least developed in Europe (and have been for most of history when compared to Italy, Greece, Germany, etc) so belong to their "sphere" implies backwardness for some people.

[Konstantinos]

You probably waited for this long enough. The thing is that there are Iron Age samples from Moldova, the border of Ukraine with Romania and Moldova, and the border of Hungary with Romania. All, but DA195 from Hungary who looks mixed with genuine Scythians, are more Northern-shifted than the Thracians, but they are still Southern-shifted compared to modern Romanians or Bulgarians.

Let's take a look at their ancient components:

https://i.imgur.com/J5JCqqS.png

You wanted to model Bulgarians and Romanians with only local samples, so we can then go on and model Bulgarians as a mix of only Thracian, Ancient Greek and Slavic (bear in mind that the Slavic samples are not local, so we are assuming that they are similar to the Slavic profile of the Slavic settlers in these countries):


<tbody>
Distance to:
Bulgarian


0.06940795
SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569


0.07392011
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1


0.07818019
Bulgaria-IronAge:BGR_IA:I5769


0.09610221
Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215


0.09842911
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


0.10975973
Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208


</tbody>


<tbody>
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.8379% / 0.01837930




58.8
SlavicMigration


41.2
Greek-IronAge


0.0
Bulgaria-IronAge


</tbody>



<tbody>
Distance to:
Macedonian


0.06709069
SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569


0.06945656
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1


0.08105599
Bulgaria-IronAge:BGR_IA:I5769


0.09391851
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


0.09839145
Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215


0.11372693
Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208


</tbody>


<tbody>
Target: Macedonian
Distance: 1.5533% / 0.01553341




57.2
SlavicMigration


42.8
Greek-IronAge


0.0
Bulgaria-IronAge

</tbody>


Now, we can do the same for Romanians. We will add the Getae from Moldova, the one from Ukraine at the Eastern border with Romania, plus what I am assuming could be Dacians from Eastern Hungary at the Western border with Romania. As opposed the Bulgarian model, we are not including Ancient Greeks and Thracians:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Romanian


0.02784575
Hungary-RomaniaBorder:Scythian_HUN:DA195


0.05068302
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy305


0.05511109
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy192


0.05560577
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy197


0.05958970
Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12


0.06136637
SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569


0.06194133
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy300


0.06423575
Hungary-RomaniaBorder:Scythian_HUN:DA198


0.06519750
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1


0.09042053
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


</tbody>


<tbody>
Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.1148% / 0.01114840




36.0
SlavicMigration


35.8
Moldova-IronAge


22.4
Hungary-RomaniaBorder


5.8
Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge

</tbody>



<tbody>
Distance to:
Moldovan


0.03926802
Hungary-RomaniaBorder:Scythian_HUN:DA195


0.04674007
SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569


0.05010457
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1


0.06485057
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy305


0.07034069
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy192


0.07132414
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy197


0.07377153
SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


0.07568627
Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12


0.07701425
Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy300


0.08010332
Hungary-RomaniaBorder:Scythian_HUN:DA198

</tbody>


<tbody>
Target: Moldovan
Distance: 1.3040% / 0.01304026




55.4
SlavicMigration


44.6
Moldova-IronAge


0.0
Hungary-RomaniaBorder


0.0
Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge

</tbody>


So that's how they are modelled with only local samples.

With everything thrown in, we get:

https://i.imgur.com/vRW12TF.png


If we assume that DA195 is a mixed Scythian and irrelevant as a source in Romanians, then this is how they all score:

https://i.imgur.com/yvQ4YCr.png

Great work! What do you think about southern Romanians? As per my understanding, Romanians-Moldovans have good diversity going from south to north. That fact and historical reasons make me believe that maybe there was quite a genetic distance from Thrace to today's north Romania in ancient times. I've read that there are upcoming studies from Bulgaria, Romania and Greece so I hope they have a lot of samples ranging from 2nd mil BC to 500 AD to check pre-Slavic.

[Konstantinos]

Romania is only considered more Slavic when you factor in non-Wallachians/Southern Romanians. Your comparison in the OP was mainly just between Southern Romania and Bulgaria. Southern Romania and Bulgaria are roughly equal in Slavic input. When you factor in the rest of the country, the Romania is more Slavic.

Actually my question is if we can say they are more Slavic based on they are more northern. Southern Romanians are as northern as (North) Bulgarians. Next we have to figure their starting position. If they started more northern, which is what I propose, South Romanians are less Slavic than North Bulgarians. For South Bulgarians and rest of Romanians-Moldovans(if anyone takes issue with this grouping don't start new comment war) the same exercise: try to figure their base and calculate their shift based on today's position. This is of course very simplistic as many other groups have invaded the area, but since I believe Slavs have made the biggest impact on Balkans I focus on that.

[Mingle]

Actually my question is if we can say they are more Slavic based on they are more northern. Southern Romanians are as northern as (North) Bulgarians. Next we have to figure their starting position. If they started more northern, which is what I propose, South Romanians are less Slavic than North Bulgarians. For South Bulgarians and rest of Romanians-Moldovans(if anyone takes issue with this grouping don't start new comment war) the same exercise: try to figure their base and calculate their shift based on today's position. This is of course very simplistic as many other groups have invaded the area, but since I believe Slavs have made the biggest impact on Balkans I focus on that.

Okay, I see what you're saying.

The Paleo-Balkan people of South Romania were probably more northern than the Paleo-Balkan people of Bulgaria. So the fact they plot together would mean Bulgarians are more Slavic. Agreed with that.

Regarding Romania overall versus Bulgaria, it seems Ion Basecul answered that.

[Konstantinos]

The Greek samples from Iberia Empuries and maybe Roopkund (India) are Ancient Greek samples and score like Myceneans. Though I recall someone saying one of the Roopkund samples looked Slavic admixed and saying it was probably from Ottoman Era Greeks.

Iberia Empuries was founded by colonists from Phokaia in Asia Minor who was in turn founded by colonists from Phocis. We don't know the degree of assimilation of natives of Asia Minor, so I'm not sure how representative it is until we have more from mainland Greece. My guess is from 75% to 100% represantive but too much range to make conclusions. Roopkund Greeks are from 19th century if I'm not mistaken so are moderns.

[Ion Basescul]

Great work! What do you think about southern Romanians? As per my understanding, Romanians-Moldovans have good diversity going from south to north. That fact and historical reasons make me believe that maybe there was quite a genetic distance from Thrace to today's north Romania in ancient times. I've read that there are upcoming studies from Bulgaria, Romania and Greece so I hope they have a lot of samples ranging from 2nd mil BC to 500 AD to check pre-Slavic.

They are very similar to Bulgarians (both from Bulgaria and R. Moldova) and close to some people from Southern Moldova. Do you have more details about those upcoming studies?

[Kaspias]

.

Can we assume that Balkan admixture of Bulgarians was Greek though? I think it was 50% at the maximum and Thracian settler of the region should be closer to the Dacians rather than the South in some parts of today's Bulgaria.

I don't know if it can help to understand what we are working on because it is highly experimental, yet I'm sharing my Thracian subtraction from myself here. My ancestry is from all over Thrace.


Kaspias-Thracian,0.118347819,0.157963991,0.023765373,-0.034681859,0.022607782,-0.026125349,-0.003218277,0.000677661,0.001022414,0.026407217,0. 001567669,0.010918603,-0.005793948,-0.01293159,-0.029208099,0.025689585,0.033087409,0.001475011,0. 017596023,0.003538147,-0.008359403,0.000289241,0.007810605,0.016884283,-0.007788483

[bained]

They are very similar to Bulgarians (both from Bulgaria and R. Moldova) and close to some people from Southern Moldova. Do you have more details about those upcoming studies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaLegrDj_hI I have this and couple of news articles that talk about it. Last info was from 08/10/19. 20 to 100 samples at Max Planck Institute, mostly from aristocratic graves 4th century BC. Lets hope for Bulgars one day.

[Konstantinos]

They are very similar to Bulgarians (both from Bulgaria and R. Moldova) and close to some people from Southern Moldova. Do you have more details about those upcoming studies?

I've read on comments here and there that there are upcoming studies so I don't know much more. For examples Bained in a comment said about studies from Bulgaria, I have read many times about Ancient Greece also. The problem is they take too long to publish for whatever reason, so don't hold your breath till then.

[bained]

Just to clarify something. I do believe that there were migrations that changed the DNA profile of the population since Iron Age, but I have issues with it being a single migration. Even if we use the samples that you did in the calculator, there are 500 to 1000 years of gaps, which have recorded migrations from various people. My biggest problem is that these populations are not viewed as important, or they are just lumped into the slavic migration. I also have a lot of negative views on the whole slavic migration, because it follows strict russian propaganda vector and there is complete lack of recorded evidence, even the fuckin name slav is developed much later. The tribes that are viewed as slavs, obviously hated and killed each other. So to group any tribe, person or whatsoever living north of Danube into some kumbalaya hippie bandwagon is making me upset.

Keep in mind, both locations were Eastern Roman during that time, which practiced constant resettlement in the interior and strict absorption of outsiders. Later, the Bulgarian Tsardom followed the Byzantine model and started assimilation of geeks and other people in the viscinity. Which you never hear, you hear only slavs cool, slavs conquer. Even the first tribe Severi that was adopted into the Bulgarian country in 681 was immediately moved across the Danube to Romanian lands. (which again doesn't make fuckin sense, since Sever means north and they were moved north ?!?)

[Mingle]

Lets hope for Bulgars one day.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?156273-Bulgars-were-Turkic&p=6706668&viewfull=1#post6706668

[bained]

T

Yo my man, where are the AED/ACD samples and the Szolad samples? Both medieval, both from the west, if you wanna include the czesh sample, you should include these too. I wont insist on the Hungarian Scythian, but these are important - Bulgars practiced Artifical cranial deformation and Szolad are pretty byzantine soldiers if you ask mytrueancestry :)

[Ion Basescul]

Even the first tribe Severi that was adopted into the Bulgarian country in 681 was immediately moved across the Danube to Romanian lands. (which again doesn't make fuckin sense, since Sever means north and they were moved north ?!?)

To here? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cara%C8%99-Severin_County

[Ion Basescul]

Yo my man, where are the AED/ACD samples and the Szolad samples? Both medieval, both from the west, if you wanna include the czesh sample, you should include these too. I wont insist on the Hungarian Scythian, but these are important - Bulgars practiced Artifical cranial deformation and Szolad are pretty byzantine soldiers if you ask mytrueancestry :)

Slavs migrated during the middle ages, hence why only them are used from that period. We should consider that those samples from Germany with Southeast Euro profiles are already mixed with them.

[Seya]

To me Romanian sounds like a Slavic language but nothing can be understood. It's phonology is pretty Eastern overall. Though when I was listening to some Eastern Orthodox chants and prayers in Romanian I found an astonishing number of Church Slavic words used in those texts.

Romanian sounds slavic to you? :lol: Come on...seriously now )))

https://youtu.be/gye6SsONwvo

[Impaler]

Let's shut up and contribute

I put DEU_MA to spreadsheet in order to cover additional Steppe ancestry for Balkan part and used various references instead of taking an average. I think this should be answer of the question.




Distance to: Impaler_scaled
0.04624311 Balkan:scy305
0.05972359 Balkan:scy192
0.06619043 Balkan:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.06678948 Balkan:scy300
0.07028916 Balkan:scy197
0.07278044 Balkan:HRV_IA:I3313
0.08805606 Balkan: DEU_MA
0.09255357 Balkan:BGR_IA
0.09471921 Balkan:Anatolia_IA_low_res:MA2197
0.11531777 Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.12435231 Slav:KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro: DA29
0.20451564 Turk:KAZ_Turk: DA89
0.22044310 Turk:RUS_Nomad_MA: DA142

Target: Impaler_scaled
Distance: 3.0128% / 0.03012841
76.2 Balkan
13.4 Slav
10.4 Turk

[Ion Basescul]

Romanian sounds slavic to you? :lol: Come on...seriously now )))

https://youtu.be/gye6SsONwvo

Romanian itself is not static and there are regional variations. To me standard Romanian that is spoken during news for example, sounds Romance in intonation indeed, but local accents are more diverse. I sound nowhere close to that personally, even though when speaking I think that I do from my perspective, if that makes sense.

https://voca.ro/gqnTiW9n3Eb

[Seya]

Romanian itself is not static and there are regional variations. To me standard Romanian that is spoken during news for example, sounds Romance in intonation indeed, but local accents are more diverse. I sound nowhere close to that personally, even though when speaking I think that I do from my perspective, if that makes sense.

https://voca.ro/gqnTiW9n3Eb
Yes but you’re from R. Moldova. Moldavians from the republic speak with a heavy russian accent. I would never mistake a romanian moldovan with a moldovian from the republic. They have very different accents. Anyway accents mean nothing. Some people say even portuguese sounds russian.

[Ion Basescul]

Yes but you’re from R. Moldova. Moldavians from the republic speak with a heavy russian accent. I would never mistake a romanian moldovan with a moldovian from the republic. They have very different accents. Anyway accents mean nothing. Some people say even portuguese sounds russian.

Not really, that's more of an urban thing, which disappears once one steps out of cities. The accents of my grandparents are indistinguishable to my ears from those in Romania's Moldova. Aspirin's is probably close too, considering that he grew in a less diverse environment.

[Seya]

Not really, that's more of an urban thing, which disappears once one steps out of cities. The accents of my grandparents are indistinguishable to my ears from those in Romania's Moldova. Aspirin's is probably close too, considering that he grew in a less diverse environment.

I've heard Aspirin talking. he has a typical R.Moldovian accent. and he also thinks he speaks like the moldovians in romania. so it might be that you don't realize this. In Moldova here (RO) there are a lot of people from the Republic. 2-3 words are enough to understand they're not locals. you can ask any romanian, from moldova or not. the R. Moldovian accent is very unique. they sound like a native slavic speaker trying to speak romanian.
Don't understand me wrong, i'm not saying anything negatively here. it's just a fact that maybe you don't even realize it.

[Bosniensis]

Yes but you’re from R. Moldova. Moldavians from the republic speak with a heavy russian accent. I would never mistake a romanian moldovan with a moldovian from the republic. They have very different accents. Anyway accents mean nothing. Some people say even portuguese sounds russian.

Seya what?! :) :) :)

[Seya]

Seya what?! :) :) :)

what what? :D

[Ion Basescul]

I've heard Aspirin talking. he has a typical R.Moldovian accent. and he also thinks he speaks like the moldovians in romania. so it might be that you don't realize this. In Moldova here (RO) there are a lot of people from the Republic. 2-3 words are enough to understand they're not locals. you can ask any romanian, from moldova or not. the R. Moldovian accent is very unique. they sound like a native slavic speaker trying to speak romanian.
Don't understand me wrong, i'm not saying anything negatively here. it's just a fact that maybe you don't even realize it.

To me rural accents sound the same as those in RO Moldavia. Here's an example of rural accents (from 50th second):

https://moldova.europalibera.org/a/zorica-%C5%9Fi-maria-pur-%C5%9Fi-simplu/30550011.html

[Seya]

To me rural accents sound the same as those in RO Moldavia. Here's an example of rural accents (from 50th second):

https://moldova.europalibera.org/a/zorica-%C5%9Fi-maria-pur-%C5%9Fi-simplu/30550011.html

i agree they have a much cleaner accent but you have a heavy russian accent tho. all moldovians i have ever met spoke like you

[Leto]

Romanian sounds what many would refer to as 'Eastern European'.

[Seya]

Romanian sounds what many would refer to as 'Eastern European'.

what you mean? does this language sound like it has a slavic accent to you? or many you understand some of it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xiCdPcuFzE

[Leto]

Sounding Eastern European doesn't mean I have to understand it. I don't speak South Slavic or West Slavic for that matter, can understand some things only and usually in written form.
Okay guys, you are Romance not fucking Slavs, sorry for being offensive.

[Seya]

Sounding Eastern European doesn't mean I have to understand it. I don't speak South Slavic or West Slavic for that matter, can understand some things only and usually in written form.
Okay guys, you are Romance not fucking Slavs, sorry for being offensive.

man, i was just curious. no offense taken. it doesn't even matter to me

[Leto]

By the way, European Portuguese (not Brasileiro which is numerically dominant) does sound surprisingly Eastern for its location, that's true.
I'm actually far from illiterate in linguistics.

[Aspirin]

I've heard Aspirin talking. he has a typical R.Moldovian accent. and he also thinks he speaks like the moldovians in romania. so it might be that you don't realize this. In Moldova here (RO) there are a lot of people from the Republic. 2-3 words are enough to understand they're not locals. you can ask any romanian, from moldova or not. the R. Moldovian accent is very unique. they sound like a native slavic speaker trying to speak romanian.
Don't understand me wrong, i'm not saying anything negatively here. it's just a fact that maybe you don't even realize it.

I think you just need to close your mouth when you dare to judge about the language from RM, knowing how heavily is mongrelized with Wallachian influences the language in the Romanian side, with tons of differences and variations even in a small city or even village, something basically imposible to see in RM, here everybody speak the SAME in every fucking corner of this country, with the same fucking accent. In urban area indeed some people have some Russian influence in the language, but they are very easy to detect when these individuals open their mouths. I know how you sound, and you have ZERO Moldavian influence when you speak.

[Leto]

I think you just need to close your mouth when you dare to judge about the language from RM, knowing how heavily is mongrelized with Wallachian influences the language in the Romanian side, with tons of differences and variations even in a small city or even village, something basically imposible to see in RM, here everybody speak the SAME in every fucking corner of this country, with the same fucking accent. In urban area indeed some people have some Russian influence in the language, but they are very easy to detect when these individuals open their mouths. I know how you sound, and you have ZERO Moldavian influence when you speak.
A certain user told me your Romanian is strongly Russified (syntax and pronunciation). But I guess the Russian language in Moldova sounds more xoxol than what is spoken in Moscow. Southern Russian is often mistaken for xoxol in other parts of Russia.

[Seya]

I think you just need to close your mouth when you dare to judge about the language from RM, knowing how heavily is mongrelized with Wallachian influences the language in the Romanian side, with tons of differences and variations even in a small city or even village, something basically imposible to see in RM, here everybody speak the SAME in every fucking corner of this country, with the same fucking accent. In urban area indeed some people have some Russian influence in the language, but they are very easy to detect when these individuals open their mouths. I know how you sound, and you have ZERO Moldavian influence when you speak.

dude just FO. i wasn't even talking to you but to Leto and Ion Basescul. you F crazy. i have nothing to talk to you. you would never be able to be objective about anything. you're more hysterical than a woman on menopause. don't even bother to quote me again pls

[Aspirin]

A certain user told me your Romanian is strongly Russified (syntax and pronunciation). But I guess the Russian language in Moldova sounds more xoxol than what is spoken in Moscow. Southern Russian is often mistaken for xoxol in other parts of Russia.

I don't have any Russian influence in my way of speaking, I didn't grow in a Russian speaking area. This is just the perception of Romanians claiming what Moldavian accent is a Russian influence here, and what before people spok here like Wallachians.

[Aspirin]

dude just FO. i wasn't even talking to you but to Leto and Ion Basescul. you F crazy. i have nothing to talk to you. you would never be able to be objective about anything. you're more hysterical than a woman on menopause. don't even bother to quote me again pls

Go back to your Turkish masters.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

A certain user told me your Romanian is strongly Russified (syntax and pronunciation). But I guess the Russian language in Moldova sounds more xoxol than what is spoken in Moscow. Southern Russian is often mistaken for xoxol in other parts of Russia.

All of the Romanians posting here that Romanian does not sound Slavic are intentionally deaf. Romanian has suficient phonetical influence from Slavic.

One should assess their ears if they think Romanians sounds closer to Italian than to Serbian or Bulgarian or that it is its own thing and not similar to the latter in terms of phonetics (not vocabulary).

This is also obvious with Romanians speaking English - we don't sound exactly like Russians but we're plenty close to the accent of Poles/Serbs/Bulgarians.

[vbnetkhio]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think upstream clades exist variable in Romania, Ukraine, Poland.

I-Y3120's brother clade I-Y81696 is found in Baden-Württemberg(Germany) and eastern France. I-Y3120's "first cousin" clades are I-FGC20479(found in Britain and Ireland) and I-Y44940 (Baden-Württemberg and southeast Poland). It's "second cousin" clade I-Y85772 - again in Baden-Württemberg. It's "fourth cousin" clade I-Y45825 in Baden-Württemberg and England.

based on this current data, I-L621's homeland is obviously the Baden-Württemberg area, which is a Celtic core area.

[War Chef]

My pet theory is , pound for pound Bulgarians are more Slavic, only they have decent MENA ancestry from East Romans that dillutes them greatly to a level at or slightly (1-3%) less Slavic than Romanians.

[War Chef]

I am half Bulgarian genetically but I like Romanians better. Secretly jealous of them. They are cool

[Tommie]

All of the Romanians posting here that Romanian does not sound Slavic are intentionally deaf. Romanian has suficient phonetical influence from Slavic.

One should assess their ears if they think Romanians sounds closer to Italian than to Serbian or Bulgarian or that it is its own thing and not similar to the latter in terms of phonetics (not vocabulary).

This is also obvious with Romanians speaking English - we don't sound exactly like Russians but we're plenty close to the accent of Poles/Serbs/Bulgarians.
Of course it sounds close to Italian. Even closer to Sicilian:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW7w4t7l2gU

[Leto]

I am half Bulgarian genetically but I like Romanians better. Secretly jealous of them. They are cool
Do you believe the Gagauz are ex-Bulgarians?

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Of course it sounds close to Italian. Even closer to Sicilian:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW7w4t7l2gU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttp2NTXqkl8

Compare it to this angry Serb:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXwYxYyKUQ

In terms of how it sounds, the Serb guy sounds a lot more homely than the Sicilian, even if Sicilian is closer in terms of vocabulary.

[Tommie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXwYxYyKUQ

In terms of how it sounds, the Serb guy sounds a lot more homely than the Sicilian...
Doesn't sound like Romanian.

[ixulescu]

Compare it to this angry Serb:

In terms of how it sounds, the Serb guy sounds a lot more homely than the Sicilian, even if Sicilian is closer in terms of vocabulary.


Dude, are you serious? Romanian sounds like what it is, a Romance language. Of course it's closer to Italian than to any other Slavic language.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFjQGdEYHUE

[Bosniensis]

I-Y3120's brother clade I-Y81696 is found in Baden-Württemberg(Germany) and eastern France. I-Y3120's "first cousin" clades are I-FGC20479(found in Britain and Ireland) and I-Y44940 (Baden-Württemberg and southeast Poland). It's "second cousin" clade I-Y85772 - again in Baden-Württemberg. It's "fourth cousin" clade I-Y45825 in Baden-Württemberg and England.

based on this current data, I-L621's homeland is obviously the Baden-Württemberg area, which is a Celtic core area.

Eastern Celts are Illyrians according to Greek Mythology.

Illyrians came to Balkans from North in 500 B.C. by defeating "Thracians".

Amazing isn't it.

[vbnetkhio]

My guess is Tuscan like, a mix of Romanized Illyrian DNA. But we will see.

for the entire Balkans, or for Croatia? Tuscany works well only for some Croatian regions, but for the bulk of the Balkans, Apulia or Molise is the best match:

Croat_Herzegovina
"32.1 % Apulia + 67.9 % Ukrainian" "1.3137"

Bulgaria
"57.9 % Apulia + 42.1 % Ukrainian" "1.89"

[Konstantinos]

My pet theory is , pound for pound Bulgarians are more Slavic, only they have decent MENA ancestry from East Romans that dillutes them greatly to a level at or slightly (1-3%) less Slavic than Romanians.

Your reasoning is correct but let me correct your phrasing. Bulgarians are more Slavic but their native base was more southern hence their overall southern position. The same way a 50% Lebanese + 50% Russian is more Slavic than a 75% English + 25% Russian even though he plots more south.

[Konstantinos]

Portuguese sounds more Slavic than Romanian to my ears. Now the reasons are different, Portuguese has heavy accent for some reason, maybe Lusitanian? I don't know. The heavy accent of Romanians can be tempting to link to Slavs, but again we can't make conclusions without a holistic approach. Thracian/Dacian/Getae may well have had a heavy accent so when they switched to Latin they retained their accent. Unfortunately we know almost nothing about these languages let alone their accents, but one important thing is they are held to be likely relatives of the Balto-Slavic branch. So let's not link accent to Slavs without knowing if this accent preexisted the Slavs.

[Ion Basescul]

Portuguese sounds more Slavic than Romanian to my ears. Now the reasons are different, Portuguese has heavy accent for some reason, maybe Lusitanian? I don't know. The heavy accent of Romanians can be tempting to link to Slavs, but again we can't make conclusions without a holistic approach. Thracian/Dacian/Getae may well have had a heavy accent so when they switched to Latin they retained their accent. Unfortunately we know almost nothing about these languages let alone their accents, but one important thing is they are held to be likely relatives of the Balto-Slavic branch. So let's not link accent to Slavs without knowing if this accent preexisted the Slavs.

All of Romania is covered in Slavic toponyms, especially in the South. It's very obvious that people mixed a lot and out of that mix Romanian language and people came out.

[vbnetkhio]

Your reasoning is correct but let me correct your phrasing. Bulgarians are more Slavic but their native base was more southern hence their overall southern position.

that doesn't seem to be the case. Apulia works best as the pre-Slavic proxy for both of them.

Romania_Transylvania
"49.4 % Apulia + 50.6 % Ukrainian" "1.3145"

Bulgaria
"57.9 % Apulia + 42.1 % Ukrainian" "1.89"


The same way a 50% Lebanese + 50% Russian is more Slavic than a 75% English + 25% Russian even though he plots more south.

no, you are wrong. even in a simple gedmatch calculator like Eurogenes k13, those 2 persons would get exactly that in the oracles (50% Lebanese + 50% Russian, 75% English + 25% Russian) , or something very similar to that, at least. there are no "northern" and "southern" genetics.

[Konstantinos]

All of Romania is covered in Slavic toponyms, especially in the South. It's very obvious that people mixed a lot and out of that mix Romanian language and people came out.

Toponyms suggest presence. Other than that you have to look at the type of presence, density and interrelations. Greek and Latin toponyms exist in a lot of places in West Eurasia that are accompanied by zero/negligible genetic influence. Of course Romanians are mixed to a degree with Slavs, but toponyms aren't a guarantee of how much. As you mentioned South Romania has more Slavic toponyms(I take your word for it since I don't know about it), whereas genetics and most importantly logic dictates Wallachians, the core of Romanians, received the least influence.

[Konstantinos]

that doesn't seem to be the case. Apulia works best as the pre-Slavic proxy for both of them.

Romania_Transylvania
"49.4 % Apulia + 50.6 % Ukrainian" "1.3145"

Bulgaria
"57.9 % Apulia + 42.1 % Ukrainian" "1.89"



no, you are wrong. even in a simple gedmatch calculator like Eurogenes k13, those 2 persons would get exactly that in the oracles (50% Lebanese + 50% Russian, 75% English + 25% Russian) , or something very similar to that, at least. there are no "northern" and "southern" genetics.

These are best fits according to the available sets. Doesn't mean anythin beyond that. I'm sure you know many Serbs show 1st result something like "75% Croatian + 25% Albanian". Are those Serbs 0% Serb or just their personal variation can best be described like that? The same way 50% Lebanese + 50% Spaniard will be read as 100% South Italian. I can go on and on.

There was even a very recent paper arguing about the need to not consider the first approximation as the best, you actually have to search for the most plausible scenario according to other sources(archaelogy, history, etc.). Modern population approximations don't equal same ancestral populations, since we may well not have ancients correctly represented in moderns. So the model has to compensate for the other half too.

Obviously I'm talking about "southern" and "northern" on the same axis. Replace the previous example with "50% Greek + 50% Pole" and "75% Bulgarian + 25% Russian". The Greek-Pole will end up more "southern" even though he has more actual "northern" ancestry. I hope this is understandable otherwise I cannot help much more.

[vbnetkhio]

These are best fits according to the available sets. Doesn't mean anythin beyond that. I'm sure you know many Serbs show 1st result something like "75% Croatian + 25% Albanian". Are those Serbs 0% Serb or just their personal variation can best be described like that? The same way 50% Lebanese + 50% Spaniard will be read as 100% South Italian. I can go on and on.

There was even a very recent paper arguing about the need to not consider the first approximation as the best, you actually have to search for the most plausible scenario according to other sources(archaelogy, history, etc.). Modern population approximations don't equal same ancestral populations, since we may well not have ancients correctly represented in moderns. So the model has to compensate for the other half too.

i agree, but these 2 are not first approximations, they are first approximations which include Ukraine.
So i'm actually susbstracting Ukraine and checking what remains, because Ukraine is a good proto-Slavic proxy.

the distances are very small, 1-2% so Apulia is an excellent proxy for an ancient sample.


Obviously I'm talking about "southern" and "northern" on the same axis. Replace the previous example with "50% Greek + 50% Pole" and "75% Bulgarian + 25% Russian". The Greek-Pole will end up more "southern" even though he has more actual "northern" ancestry. I hope this is understandable otherwise I cannot help much more.

but pre-Slavic Balkanians weren't on the same axis as Slavs, so that doesn't work.

[Konstantinos]

i agree, but these 2 are not first approximations, they are first approximations which include Ukraine.
So i'm actually susbstracting Ukraine and checking what remains, because Ukraine is a good proto-Slavic proxy.

the distances are very small, 1-2% so Apulia is an excellent proxy for an ancient sample.



but pre-Slavic Balkanians weren't on the same axis as Slavs, so that doesn't work.

It's not so simple. Let's say Bulgarians' base was Apulian. Romanians' base could well have been 90% Apulian + 10% Ukrainian. Add to Bulgarians x Ukrainian and Romanians y Ukrainian. So Bulgarians are Apulian + x Ukrainian and Romanians are (90% Apulian + 10% Ukrainian) + y Ukrainian = Apulian + (11% Ukrainian + 111%y Ukrainian). We can have a situation where x Ukrainian > y Ukrainian, but 111%x Ukrainian < 11% Ukrainian + 111%y Ukrainian. Falsely suggesting that the base is same and the addition is more on Romanians.

This is assuming Apulians/Ukrainians represents both sides well. 50% East Pole + 50% West Ukrainian is probably the most accurate modern mix in my view for Proto-Slavs but this is only a prediction until we get Proto-Slav samples. That would mean Ukrainians are slightly more "eastern + northern" than Proto-Slavs in this model, so Apulians are slightly more "western + southern" than natives.

For the record, I think Maniots/Tsakones to be virtually free from Slavic influence. They could be used as proxy for pre-Slavic Peloponnesians or Greeks more roughly(though no guarantee pre-Slavic North Greeks were identical to Peloponnesians). Pre-Slavic "Bulgarians" and Romanians were almost surely more "northern", but if we use Maniots to check how more "northern" they are today, we can then try to estimate the already preexisting shift to gauge the Slavic percentage.

[Jana]

for the entire Balkans, or for Croatia? Tuscany works well only for some Croatian regions, but for the bulk of the Balkans, Apulia or Molise is the best match:

Croat_Herzegovina
"32.1 % Apulia + 67.9 % Ukrainian" "1.3137"

Bulgaria
"57.9 % Apulia + 42.1 % Ukrainian" "1.89"

Apulia is very good as well, also Abruzzo. So yes basically south/central Italy but not the deepest south like Calabria/Sicily.

Would you agree? Apulia is really fine since it has Illyrian input.

[Jana]

For the record, I believe pre-Slavic base of majority of Romanians and Bulgarians has been the same or with minimal differences.

[Jana]

And yes Ukraine is purest Slavic proxy. I tested this on G25 with 3 early Slav samples (check my Balto-Slavic scale thread).

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316531-Balto-Slavic-scale

[Dušan]

for the entire Balkans, or for Croatia? Tuscany works well only for some Croatian regions, but for the bulk of the Balkans, Apulia or Molise is the best match:

Croat_Herzegovina
"32.1 % Apulia + 67.9 % Ukrainian" "1.3137"

Bulgaria
"57.9 % Apulia + 42.1 % Ukrainian" "1.89"

I tried with only Ukraine and Apulia, but distance was high - 5.4632%.

Then I added more eastern reference for Slavic component - East Ukraine and Ukrainian Belgorod, and all Italian references in K15.


Ukrainian,22.35,14.20,27.31,18.61,7.81,3.90,2.75,0 .42,0.78,0.46,0.58,0.54,0.16,0.09,0.05
Ukrainian_Belgorod,17.90,15.05,29.66,22.16,3.76,6. 41,2.58,0.64,0.68,0.21,0.21,0.31,0.12,0.14,0.17
Ukraine_East,18.08,13.38,31.97,22.31,6.69,2.68,1.1 0,0.14,1.86,0.29,0.40,0.42,0.36,0.20,0.12


Italy_Aostavalley,26.62,25.03,7.48,4.39,17.71,6.75 ,9.38,1.80,0.00,0.02,0.17,0.19,0.14,0.15,0.16
Italy_Piedmont,21.38,25.13,7.86,4.01,19.32,6.70,12 .69,2.19,0.11,0.01,0.06,0.12,0.24,0.13,0.03
Italy_Trentino,21.92,21.72,11.28,5.55,18.46,5.83,1 3.09,1.32,0.00,0.03,0.11,0.16,0.47,0.06,0.00
Italy_Abruzzo,11.25,15.03,6.36,2.91,16.39,15.65,26 .38,5.48,0.00,0.08,0.00,0.00,0.23,0.17,0.07
Italy_Apulia,9.50,14.93,6.66,2.94,17.44,14.90,27.2 4,4.99,0.03,0.05,0.00,0.18,0.58,0.55,0.01
Italy_Calabria,8.07,12.92,4.55,1.98,17.48,15.12,31 .66,6.46,0.13,0.11,0.04,0.09,0.36,0.97,0.07
Italy_Campania,8.83,15.10,5.33,2.06,18.31,14.96,29 .68,5.57,0.12,0.14,0.04,0.06,0.13,0.56,0.08
Italy_Central_Sicily,8.94,14.64,4.78,1.31,17.60,14 .12,29.14,6.68,0.05,0.15,0.03,0.14,0.20,1.84,0.36
Italy_East_Sicily,8.07,12.81,4.41,1.82,18.07,15.44 ,30.59,6.26,0.22,0.18,0.13,0.07,0.23,1.20,0.48
Italy_West_Sicily,9.37,13.38,4.79,1.71,18.12,13.93 ,30.01,5.89,0.32,0.25,0.05,0.16,0.21,0.98,0.85
Italy_Emiliaromagna,17.94,19.13,7.04,3.17,20.08,8. 91,19.65,3.29,0.03,0.12,0.00,0.04,0.29,0.15,0.02
Italy_Friuli,19.00,21.50,10.42,6.03,17.50,7.38,14. 76,2.41,0.28,0.15,0.02,0.34,0.06,0.13,0.00
Italy_Lazio,15.18,17.36,7.06,2.43,19.99,9.92,23.83 ,3.74,0.07,0.14,0.03,0.10,0.03,0.05,0.09
Italy_Liguria,18.23,21.71,6.84,3.24,20.21,7.98,17. 82,3.03,0.11,0.17,0.07,0.23,0.24,0.03,0.08
Italy_Lombardy,21.50,22.45,6.34,2.73,20.71,6.38,16 .91,2.27,0.11,0.21,0.08,0.06,0.16,0.07,0.00
Italy_Marche,15.34,17.26,5.97,2.22,19.56,11.73,22. 54,4.32,0.21,0.10,0.00,0.37,0.10,0.27,0.07
Italy_Tuscany,17.25,20.05,6.52,2.79,20.41,9.07,19. 20,3.54,0.57,0.25,0.02,0.06,0.14,0.08,0.02
Italy_Veneto,21.07,21.37,8.50,5.45,18.65,7.15,14.6 9,2.42,0.14,0.18,0.05,0.08,0.15,0.09,0.00
Sardinian,5.54,21.19,3.23,0.15,48.23,1.01,17.48,2. 56,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.32,0.20,0.05


This is result:

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.8004% / 1.80041009
65.6 Ukrainian_Belgorod
14.8 Sardinian
9.8 Italy_Apulia
8.6 Italy_Abruzzo
0.8 Italy_Aostavalley
0.4 Italy_Piedmont

[Ion Basescul]

As you mentioned South Romania has more Slavic toponyms(I take your word for it since I don't know about it), whereas genetics and most importantly logic dictates Wallachians, the core of Romanians, received the least influence.

If they are mixed with Bulgarians then the Slavic influence could be way more serious than we are all thinking.

[Ion Basescul]

I tried with only Ukraine and Apulia, but distance was high - 5.4632%.

Then I added more eastern reference for Slavic component - East Ukraine and Ukrainian Belgorod, and all Italian references in K15.


Ukrainian,22.35,14.20,27.31,18.61,7.81,3.90,2.75,0 .42,0.78,0.46,0.58,0.54,0.16,0.09,0.05
Ukrainian_Belgorod,17.90,15.05,29.66,22.16,3.76,6. 41,2.58,0.64,0.68,0.21,0.21,0.31,0.12,0.14,0.17
Ukraine_East,18.08,13.38,31.97,22.31,6.69,2.68,1.1 0,0.14,1.86,0.29,0.40,0.42,0.36,0.20,0.12


Italy_Aostavalley,26.62,25.03,7.48,4.39,17.71,6.75 ,9.38,1.80,0.00,0.02,0.17,0.19,0.14,0.15,0.16
Italy_Piedmont,21.38,25.13,7.86,4.01,19.32,6.70,12 .69,2.19,0.11,0.01,0.06,0.12,0.24,0.13,0.03
Italy_Trentino,21.92,21.72,11.28,5.55,18.46,5.83,1 3.09,1.32,0.00,0.03,0.11,0.16,0.47,0.06,0.00
Italy_Abruzzo,11.25,15.03,6.36,2.91,16.39,15.65,26 .38,5.48,0.00,0.08,0.00,0.00,0.23,0.17,0.07
Italy_Apulia,9.50,14.93,6.66,2.94,17.44,14.90,27.2 4,4.99,0.03,0.05,0.00,0.18,0.58,0.55,0.01
Italy_Calabria,8.07,12.92,4.55,1.98,17.48,15.12,31 .66,6.46,0.13,0.11,0.04,0.09,0.36,0.97,0.07
Italy_Campania,8.83,15.10,5.33,2.06,18.31,14.96,29 .68,5.57,0.12,0.14,0.04,0.06,0.13,0.56,0.08
Italy_Central_Sicily,8.94,14.64,4.78,1.31,17.60,14 .12,29.14,6.68,0.05,0.15,0.03,0.14,0.20,1.84,0.36
Italy_East_Sicily,8.07,12.81,4.41,1.82,18.07,15.44 ,30.59,6.26,0.22,0.18,0.13,0.07,0.23,1.20,0.48
Italy_West_Sicily,9.37,13.38,4.79,1.71,18.12,13.93 ,30.01,5.89,0.32,0.25,0.05,0.16,0.21,0.98,0.85
Italy_Emiliaromagna,17.94,19.13,7.04,3.17,20.08,8. 91,19.65,3.29,0.03,0.12,0.00,0.04,0.29,0.15,0.02
Italy_Friuli,19.00,21.50,10.42,6.03,17.50,7.38,14. 76,2.41,0.28,0.15,0.02,0.34,0.06,0.13,0.00
Italy_Lazio,15.18,17.36,7.06,2.43,19.99,9.92,23.83 ,3.74,0.07,0.14,0.03,0.10,0.03,0.05,0.09
Italy_Liguria,18.23,21.71,6.84,3.24,20.21,7.98,17. 82,3.03,0.11,0.17,0.07,0.23,0.24,0.03,0.08
Italy_Lombardy,21.50,22.45,6.34,2.73,20.71,6.38,16 .91,2.27,0.11,0.21,0.08,0.06,0.16,0.07,0.00
Italy_Marche,15.34,17.26,5.97,2.22,19.56,11.73,22. 54,4.32,0.21,0.10,0.00,0.37,0.10,0.27,0.07
Italy_Tuscany,17.25,20.05,6.52,2.79,20.41,9.07,19. 20,3.54,0.57,0.25,0.02,0.06,0.14,0.08,0.02
Italy_Veneto,21.07,21.37,8.50,5.45,18.65,7.15,14.6 9,2.42,0.14,0.18,0.05,0.08,0.15,0.09,0.00
Sardinian,5.54,21.19,3.23,0.15,48.23,1.01,17.48,2. 56,0.00,0.00,0.03,0.00,0.32,0.20,0.05


This is result:

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.8004% / 1.80041009
65.6 Ukrainian_Belgorod
14.8 Sardinian
9.8 Italy_Apulia
8.6 Italy_Abruzzo
0.8 Italy_Aostavalley
0.4 Italy_Piedmont

Belgorod guys are anything but Ukrainian from an ethnic perspective. Those are fairly recent Russian settlers, who arrived following the Russo-Turkish wars.

[Jana]

For my father who is 100% south Slavic best proxy is Veneto, which is way more NW than Apulia or even Tuscany and Lombardy. But it could be Germanic from his NW Croat side actually? He always gets around 10% Norwegian in breakdown.

Village in NW Croatia where his roots lie has been populated by German miners in the past. But as I said, his all surnames are completely Croatian.

Vbnethkio what do you think, is Veneto in his results maybe result of that and not actual pre-Slavic base?

[Dušan]

Belgorod guys are anything but Ukrainian from an ethnic perspective. Those are fairly recent Russian settlers, who arrived following the Russo-Turkish wars.

Ok. If I exclude them, distance get higher.

[Jana]

Ok. If I exclude them, distance get higher.

If I remeber correctly, you always get something more NE than Slavic like Ezrya or minor Volga-Ural in your results.

[Konstantinos]

For the record, I believe pre-Slavic base of majority of Romanians and Bulgarians has been the same or with minimal differences.

How would you rate the differences? Say 1 is modern Greeks(take Thessaly) and 10 is modern Serbia(take Central Serbia). Based on that scale what you would ascribe to pre-Slavic inhabitants of North Greece(meaning Macedonia and Thrace-Western, East assumed together except if you think they differed), South Bulgaria/Northern Thrace, North Bulgaria, South Romania? Attribute degrees to each region, starting from 1 for more "southern"(this doesn't mean they were equal to modern Thessaly so doesn't need to reach 10 if you think the differences weren't that big).

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
| | | | | | | | | |

[Dušan]

If I remeber correctly, you always get something more NE than Slavic like Ezrya or minor Volga-Ural in your results.

Yes, in 4-mode K13 I got Erzya.

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
1 Erzya + Moldavian + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.963264
2 Bulgarian + Erzya + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 4.019377
3 Bulgarian + Erzya + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.135350
4 Erzya + Sardinian + Serbian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.149005
5 Erzya + Moldavian + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 4.169669

And in K36 Volga-Ural 4.36%.

[Konstantinos]

If they are mixed with Bulgarians then the Slavic influence could be way more serious than we are all thinking.

I need more info. The Slavic influence in Greece is thought to be swift right after the migrations. Is that the case for Romanians or Wallachians more specifically? If there was more gradual mixing, in extreme case even up to end of Ottoman times, we need IBD since the border region is practically identical genetically. My intuition tells me though it would also be older, at least before Ottomans, I await more input on this from you and any Romanian knowledgeable about the details of the region.

[Jana]

How would you rate the differences? Say 1 is modern Greeks(take Thessaly) and 10 is modern Serbia(take Central Serbia). Based on that scale what you would ascribe to pre-Slavic inhabitants of North Greece(meaning Macedonia and Thrace-Western, East assumed together except if you think they differed), South Bulgaria/Northern Thrace, North Bulgaria, South Romania? Attribute degrees to each region, starting from 1 for more "southern"(this doesn't mean they were equal to modern Thessaly so doesn't need to reach 10 if you think the differences weren't that big).

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
| | | | | | | | | |

Really not sure. We don't know how significant Roman input was in Balkans. In Iberia it was significant, more than expected.

What population do you think spread E-V13?

[vbnetkhio]

Romanians' base could well have been 90% Apulian + 10% Ukrainian.

i understood you, but there is absolutely no reason to believe it was like that. There are north-shifted ancient Balkan samples, but they are steppe shifted, not Balto Slavic.

check out this sample, nothing like Slavs:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280459-Bronze-Age-Bulgarian-R1a-Z93


This is assuming Apulians/Ukrainians represents both sides well. 50% East Pole + 50% West Ukrainian is probably the most accurate modern mix in my view for Proto-Slavs

Ukrainian average works the best for all Slavs, after that Belarusian. East Germans get "Ukrainian+West German", for example. And more importantly, East Poland and West Ukraine weren't a part of the Slavic core.


but this is only a prediction until we get Proto-Slav samples.

we have 4 medieval Slavs, from Czechia, Russia and Hungary. from 7-12th century. all very similar to each other, meaning they were still proto-Slavs with little to no admixture.

[vbnetkhio]

Apulia is very good as well, also Abruzzo. So yes basically south/central Italy but not the deepest south like Calabria/Sicily.

Would you agree? Apulia is really fine since it has Illyrian input.

yes.


I tried with only Ukraine and Apulia, but distance was high - 5.4632%.

Then I added more eastern reference for Slavic component - East Ukraine and Ukrainian Belgorod, and all Italian references in K15.



Apulia works for the average Balkanite, individuals can be different, of course. i get Ukrainian + Sardinian as the best fit.

[Konstantinos]

Really not sure. We don't know how significant Roman input was in Balkans. In Iberia it was significant, more than expected.

What population do you think spread E-V13?

Roman input in Balkans is probably negligible, even in Romania. Maybe West Balkans has some.

E-V13 is more ancient than that I guess, by classical times it was mostly distributed except later colonization.

[vbnetkhio]

For my father who is 100% south Slavic best proxy is Veneto, which is way more NW than Apulia or even Tuscany and Lombardy.

that's nothing weird, the pre-Slavic part can vary a lot between individuals. btw, Zagorje Croat average gets Ukrainian + Swiss_German, and French after that.


Vbnethkio what do you think, is Veneto in his results maybe result of that and not actual pre-Slavic base?

it's impossible to say, k13 is a too simple tool for that. g25 too probably.

[Konstantinos]

i understood you, but there is absolutely no reason to believe it was like that. There are north-shifted ancient Balkan samples, but they are steppe shifted, not Balto Slavic.

check out this sample, nothing like Slavs:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280459-Bronze-Age-Bulgarian-R1a-Z93



Ukrainian average works the best for all Slavs, after that Belarusian. East Germans get "Ukrainian+West German", for example. And more importantly, East Poland and West Ukraine weren't a part of the Slavic core.



we have 4 medieval Slavs, from Czechia, Russia and Hungary. from 7-12th century. all very similar to each other, meaning they were still proto-Slavs with little to no admixture.

The samples we have from pre-Slavic Balkans are way back to make conclusions. We need samples from first centuries AD.

The proposed proto-Slav samples are variously described admixed in different degrees. Again we need samples from the first centuries AD from the proposed Slavic urheimat, preferably identifiable as Slavs. Until then we can't say anything for sure without repeating the same things ad nauseam.

[bained]

Simple calculator for simple people:

Target: BaiNed
Distance: 2.8662% / 2.86617211 | ADC: 0.5x
40.8 R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
35.2 DA195_Hungary_Scythian.SG_2553_ybp
24.0 AED513_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1528_ybp

Target: BaiNed
Distance: 1.8379% / 1.83785370 | ADC: 0.25x
48.0 R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
28.6 AED513_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1528_ybp
20.2 DA195_Hungary_Scythian.SG_2553_ybp
3.0 vik_kal009_Sweden_Viking.SG_900_ybp
0.2 MJ14_West_Scythian_R1a_Z645_

7.58159614 SZ1.SG_longobard_hungary
7.67220307 SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
7.95602916 DA195_Hungary_Scythian.SG_2553_ybp
8.14158461 NW54_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
8.40565881 I4124_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4284_ybp
9.42774628 AED513_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1528_ybp
9.56970741 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
9.63768644 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
9.87278076 R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
9.93372538 SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
9.94376186 STR310_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1430_ybp
10.69829426 R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
10.71572209 R61_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
10.94588050 R105_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
11.41887910 SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
11.51587166 I7043_Hungary_BA_4000_ybp
11.54190192 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
11.63073944 STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
11.74808069 I2165_Bulgaria_EBA_4908_ybp
11.75855433 scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp
11.87781546 R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
11.92279749 CL49_longobard_north_italy
11.94287235 scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
12.59824591 SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
12.86243367 scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp

[vbnetkhio]

The samples we have from pre-Slavic Balkans are way back to make conclusions. We need samples from first centuries AD.

The proposed proto-Slav samples are variously described admixed in different degrees. Again we need samples from the first centuries AD from the proposed Slavic urheimat, preferably identifiable as Slavs. Until then we can't say anything for sure without repeating the same things ad nauseam.

the one from Czechia is identified as an Early Slav. the one from Russia is already Kievan Rusian. The ones from Hungary are "Avars", in the avar Khaganate there were real Asian Avars, Slavs and Romans, and these 2 plot with Belarusians, so we can be pretty sure they are Slavs too.

[Ljubic]

G25 isnt good for mixed populations or any "amateur" calculator for that matter. It cant even detect ancestry from 3 Generations ago.

[Jana]

Roman input in Balkans is probably negligible, even in Romania. Maybe West Balkans has some.

E-V13 is more ancient than that I guess, by classical times it was mostly distributed except later colonization.

I doubt it. East Balkans scores much more Italian ancestry in 23andme than western.

[Dušan]

Apulia works for the average Balkanite, individuals can be different, of course. i get Ukrainian + Sardinian as the best fit.

Are Sardinians more southern than Apulians?
Maybe thats the reason that I get in 4-mode Erzya es extreme northeast, and Sardinians as most southerners.
Erzya are in fact Russians by genetics, nothing non-European in them.

[bained]

I doubt it. East Balkans scores much more Italian ancestry in 23andme than western.

But muh slavic squatting identity...
9.1%
Eastern European
View report

7.2%
Italian
View report

7.6%
Broadly Southern European
View report

Can I get free trip to Dalmatia and small villa on the beach? 98913

[vbnetkhio]

Are Sardinians more southern than Apulians?
Maybe thats the reason that I get in 4-mode Erzya es extreme northeast, and Sardinians as most southerners.
Erzya are in fact Russians by genetics, nothing non-European in them.

they are completely outside the north-south Italian axis, because of their high neoltihic admixture. I get South Italian and Sicilian too, that's probably more realistic.

[Jana]

But muh slavic squatting identity...
9.1%
Eastern European
View report

7.2%
Italian
View report

7.6%
Broadly Southern European
View report

Can I get free trip to Dalmatia and small villa on the beach? 98913

What is your IQ, 70? Balkan group is based on modern South Slavs not Paleo balkan samples, some of who have almost 70% early slav input.

Get out of here paranoid self hater.

[bained]

What is your IQ, 70? Balkan group is based on modern South Slavs not Paleo balkan samples, some of who have almost 70% early slav input.

Get out of here paranoid self hater.

I failed my IQ exam.

[Dušan]

they are completely outside the north-south Italian axis, because of their high neoltihic admixture. I get South Italian and Sicilian too, that's probably more realistic.

Same.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.4% Moldavian + 6.6% Sardinian @ 3.52
2 60.5% Ukrainian + 39.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.89
3 67.8% Ukrainian + 32.2% Central_Greek @ 4.09
4 54.2% Bulgarian + 45.8% Ukrainian @ 4.12
5 94.6% Moldavian + 5.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.15
6 72.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 27.8% Sardinian @ 4.16
7 90.5% Moldavian + 9.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.16
8 71.1% Ukrainian + 28.9% South_Italian @ 4.17
9 84.3% Moldavian + 15.7% Bulgarian @ 4.19
10 93.9% Moldavian + 6.1% Ashkenazi @ 4.23
11 68.8% Ukrainian + 31.2% East_Sicilian @ 4.23
12 62.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 37.2% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.24
13 95.1% Moldavian + 4.9% Italian_Jewish @ 4.24
14 93.7% Moldavian + 6.3% Central_Greek @ 4.27
15 93.9% Moldavian + 6.1% East_Sicilian @ 4.27
16 94.6% Moldavian + 5.4% South_Italian @ 4.27
17 94% Moldavian + 6% West_Sicilian @ 4.28
18 95.9% Moldavian + 4.1% Cyprian @ 4.29
19 95.9% Moldavian + 4.1% Tunisian @ 4.29
20 96% Moldavian + 4% Moroccan @ 4.3

[vbnetkhio]

i made Bulgarian regional averages based on these borders:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Bulgarian_dialects_by_Todor_Bozhinov.png

mostly from the Bulgarian results posted by Kaspias on this forum.



Bulgarian_central,22.44,22.94,18.65,11.23,19.38,2. 61,0.47,0.13,1.05,0.59,0.40,0.09,0.18
Bulgarian_Moesia,20.07,26.86,16.65,12.83,18.50,2.1 1,0.54,0.28,1.07,0.20,0.69,0.29,0.23
Bulgarian_northwest,20.43,28.99,17.57,9.97,17.06,2 .34,0.82,0.43,0.97,0.67,0.78,0.00,0.00
Bulgarian_southwest,24.57,23.99,17.24,10.73,18.29, 2.36,0.20,0.76,1.53,0.33,0.38,0.00,0.21
Bulgarian_Thrace,20.45,21.84,17.08,14.89,20.14,3.0 6,0.85,0.25,0.24,0.30,0.19,0.24,0.04
Bulgarian,21.59,24.93,17.44,11.93,18.68,2.50,0.57, 0.37,0.97,0.42,0.49,0.12,0.13


also, some related groups:



Gagauz,19.35,23.14,17.99,12.57,21.48,2.90,0.52,0.2 5,0.69,0.40,0.64,0.06,0.00
Torbesh,21.55,17.67,22.34,10.48,23.69,2.25,0.00,0. 51,0.48,0.79,0.25,0.00,0.00
Aromanian,22.79,20.37,18.82,11.31,21.00,3.85,0.00, 0.17,0.49,0.51,0.40,0.07,0.00
Pomak,18.95,24.66,16.75,13.16,20.92,2.53,0.41,0.84 ,0.71,0.38,0.35,0.05,0.06


Torbesh are practically identical to Albanians, Aromanians are the closest to FYROM Macedonians. Pomak and Gagauz are the closest to Moesian and Thracian Bulgarians and Greeks.

[Jana]

^^^ Great job, they should be added to K13 Vahaduo.

[Ion Basescul]

i made Bulgarian regional averages based on these borders:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Bulgarian_dialects_by_Todor_Bozhinov.png

mostly from the Bulgarian results posted by Kaspias on this forum.



Bulgarian_central,22.44,22.94,18.65,11.23,19.38,2. 61,0.47,0.13,1.05,0.59,0.40,0.09,0.18
Bulgarian_Moesia,20.07,26.86,16.65,12.83,18.50,2.1 1,0.54,0.28,1.07,0.20,0.69,0.29,0.23
Bulgarian_northwest,20.43,28.99,17.57,9.97,17.06,2 .34,0.82,0.43,0.97,0.67,0.78,0.00,0.00
Bulgarian_southwest,24.57,23.99,17.24,10.73,18.29, 2.36,0.20,0.76,1.53,0.33,0.38,0.00,0.21
Bulgarian_Thrace,20.45,21.84,17.08,14.89,20.14,3.0 6,0.85,0.25,0.24,0.30,0.19,0.24,0.04
Bulgarian,21.59,24.93,17.44,11.93,18.68,2.50,0.57, 0.37,0.97,0.42,0.49,0.12,0.13


also, some related groups:



Gagauz,19.35,23.14,17.99,12.57,21.48,2.90,0.52,0.2 5,0.69,0.40,0.64,0.06,0.00
Torbesh,21.55,17.67,22.34,10.48,23.69,2.25,0.00,0. 51,0.48,0.79,0.25,0.00,0.00
Aromanian,22.79,20.37,18.82,11.31,21.00,3.85,0.00, 0.17,0.49,0.51,0.40,0.07,0.00
Pomak,18.95,24.66,16.75,13.16,20.92,2.53,0.41,0.84 ,0.71,0.38,0.35,0.05,0.06


Torbesh are practically identical to Albanians, Aromanians are the closest to FYROM Macedonians. Pomak and Gagauz are the closest to Moesian and Thracian Bulgarians and Greeks.

How many samples do you have for each regional average?

[vbnetkhio]

How many samples do you have for each regional average?

Central 7
Moesia 3
Thrace 11
Southwest 4
Northwest 4

Pomak 9
Torbesh 3
Vlach 5
Gagauz 12 (this one is from academic samples, it's already on Vahaduo)

[vbnetkhio]

^^^ Great job, they should be added to K13 Vahaduo.

only if Kaspias agrees. the current Vahaduo averages were made by him.

[Jana]

only if Kaspias agrees. the current Vahaduo averages were made by him.

Ofcourse.

[Ion Basescul]

Central 7
Moesia 3
Thrace 11
Southwest 4
Northwest 4

Pomak 9
Torbesh 3
Vlach 5
Gagauz 12 (this one is from academic samples, it's already on Vahaduo)

Ah so, it's not representative at all basically. But it's still better than nothing I guess.

[Jana]

Ah so, it's not representative at all basically. But it's still better than nothing I guess.

Much better than current averages some of which are based on 1 sample.

[vbnetkhio]

Ah so, it's not representative at all basically. But it's still better than nothing I guess.

compare the 2 PCAs:

with the Vahaduo Bulgarian averages:
https://i.imgur.com/FrhhhXx.png

with these new ones:
https://i.imgur.com/8oT9TCD.png


The new Bulgarian cluster already makes much more sense. it will only get better with more results.

[Ion Basescul]

compare the 2 PCAs:

with the Vahaduo Bulgarian averages:
https://i.imgur.com/FrhhhXx.png

with these new ones:
https://i.imgur.com/8oT9TCD.png


The new Bulgarian cluster already makes much more sense. it will only get better with more results.

Well, yes, it's definitely better than the old ones, if you guys are saying that those are made from one sample. But there's more work to be done for it to be considered representative. For example, I'm not even entirely comfortable with 100 samples for each region in Romania and Moldova. I would like to have at least 50 for each county/district and then I'd feel more comfortable about them being representative.

[Mingle]

i made Bulgarian regional averages based on these borders:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Bulgarian_dialects_by_Todor_Bozhinov.png

mostly from the Bulgarian results posted by Kaspias on this forum.



Bulgarian_central,22.44,22.94,18.65,11.23,19.38,2. 61,0.47,0.13,1.05,0.59,0.40,0.09,0.18
Bulgarian_Moesia,20.07,26.86,16.65,12.83,18.50,2.1 1,0.54,0.28,1.07,0.20,0.69,0.29,0.23
Bulgarian_northwest,20.43,28.99,17.57,9.97,17.06,2 .34,0.82,0.43,0.97,0.67,0.78,0.00,0.00
Bulgarian_southwest,24.57,23.99,17.24,10.73,18.29, 2.36,0.20,0.76,1.53,0.33,0.38,0.00,0.21
Bulgarian_Thrace,20.45,21.84,17.08,14.89,20.14,3.0 6,0.85,0.25,0.24,0.30,0.19,0.24,0.04
Bulgarian,21.59,24.93,17.44,11.93,18.68,2.50,0.57, 0.37,0.97,0.42,0.49,0.12,0.13


also, some related groups:



Gagauz,19.35,23.14,17.99,12.57,21.48,2.90,0.52,0.2 5,0.69,0.40,0.64,0.06,0.00
Torbesh,21.55,17.67,22.34,10.48,23.69,2.25,0.00,0. 51,0.48,0.79,0.25,0.00,0.00
Aromanian,22.79,20.37,18.82,11.31,21.00,3.85,0.00, 0.17,0.49,0.51,0.40,0.07,0.00
Pomak,18.95,24.66,16.75,13.16,20.92,2.53,0.41,0.84 ,0.71,0.38,0.35,0.05,0.06


Torbesh are practically identical to Albanians, Aromanians are the closest to FYROM Macedonians. Pomak and Gagauz are the closest to Moesian and Thracian Bulgarians and Greeks.

Are the averages you just posted made by combining the averages that Kaspias made or are they made by combining all the individual results that Kaspias posted before? As far as I know, Kaspias posted many averages without giving the results of the individuals that comprised the average (though I could be mistaken).

[Lioncourt]

Bulgarian_central,22.44,22.94,18.65,11.23,19.38,2. 61,0.47,0.13,1.05,0.59,0.40,0.09,0.18
Bulgarian_Moesia,20.07,26.86,16.65,12.83,18.50,2.1 1,0.54,0.28,1.07,0.20,0.69,0.29,0.23
Bulgarian_northwest,20.43,28.99,17.57,9.97,17.06,2 .34,0.82,0.43,0.97,0.67,0.78,0.00,0.00
Bulgarian_southwest,24.57,23.99,17.24,10.73,18.29, 2.36,0.20,0.76,1.53,0.33,0.38,0.00,0.21
Bulgarian_Thrace,20.45,21.84,17.08,14.89,20.14,3.0 6,0.85,0.25,0.24,0.30,0.19,0.24,0.04
Bulgarian,21.59,24.93,17.44,11.93,18.68,2.50,0.57, 0.37,0.97,0.42,0.49,0.12,0.13


Based on the number of samples for each regional group, the Bulgarian_average should be (for all components > 1%):



Bulgarian_average: 21.46 23.91 17.50 12.54 19.11 2.66


It's a bit of overrepresentation of Thrace + some doubtfully high Baltic for the Northwest.

[vbnetkhio]

Are the averages you just posted made by combining the averages that Kaspias made or are they made by combining all the individual results that Kaspias posted before? As far as I know, Kaspias posted many averages without giving the results of the individuals that comprised the average (though I could be mistaken).

mostly individual results, and some averages which are probably one result averages. (Stara Zagora, Veliko Tarnovo etc.)

[vbnetkhio]

Based on the number of samples for each regional group, the Bulgarian_average should be (for all components > 1%):



Bulgarian_average: 21.46 23.91 17.50 12.54 19.11 2.66


It's a bit of overrepresentation of Thrace + some doubtfully high Baltic for the Northwest.

i just averaged out the 5 averages. but this doesn't look too different.

[Lioncourt]

i just averaged out the 5 averages. but this doesn't look too different.

It's not too different, only Baltic score shows more than 1% difference. I multiplied each regional by the number of samples for its region, combined them and divided on total samples.

It is also very close to the current Bulgarian average.



21.75 24.06 17.91 11.91 20.12 1.93