Central Germans

[Peterski]

I wonder if anyone has ever seen a "genetically Central German" - meaning about equally close to North/South/East?

I have never seen one! I think they are like Dodo birds. I challenge everyone to find a "Central German" kit on GEDmatch.

I mean a kit that gets in Top 3 distances: North German, South German, East German (not necessarily in this order).

[Synapsid]

I wonder if anyone has ever seen a "genetically Central German" - meaning equally close to North/South/East Germans.

I have never seen one! I think they are like Dodo birds. I challenge everyone to find a "Central German" kit on GEDmatch.

I mean a kit that gets in Top 3 distances: North German, South German, East German (not necessarily in this order).

They do exist but not common because Germany before 1870 was highly balkanized, with two spheres of influence; The Protestant Franconian branch that became the Hohenzollern who originated in pre-reformation swabia before mixing with eastern ostsiedlung Germans from N. Germany proper with significant baltic and NW Slavic influence.
And The catholic Austro-Bavarian spheres of influence who were influenced by Romance/Italians and Catholic SE Europeans like Slovenes and Croats

[Leto]

Mitteldeutsche are those from the former GDR. It's called Mitteldeutschland because Ostdeutschland is now lost to Poland and Czechia.

[Peterski]

Mitteldeutsche are those from the former GDR. It's called Mitteldeutschland because Ostdeutschland is now lost to Poland and Czechia.

But they are genetically the same as Far Eastern Germans. They are not close to Northwestern or Southwestern Germans.


They do exist but not common

Evidence?

[Kyp]

Maybe my mother is kind of central and slightly southern , also doesnt get distances below 5:

Distance to: MotherKyp(Franconian)
5.99438904 West_German
6.14463994 South_Dutch
6.33061608 Austrian
6.53508990 Bavarian_German
7.10468859 East_German
7.35611310 Swiss_German
8.19727394 North_German

k15:
Distance to: MotherKyp
5.64120554 German_Bavarian
6.28038215 South_Dutch
6.52300544 North_German
6.95739175 East_German
8.14263471 Belgium
9.04901652 West_German
9.97499875 Southwest_English

[Götterfunke]

I have never known anyone from central Germany, I don't think these people exist in general. They are like unicorns.

[Jana]

My German ancestry is from central Germany, but they seem genetically closer to southerners.
Hesse was said to be Faelid hotspot along with Westphalia and I agree with that because my mother is Faelid (as is her brother) and she got it from her German part.

[Götterfunke]

My German ancestry is from central Germany, but they seem genetically closer to southerners.
Hesse was said to be Faelid hotspot along with Westphalia and I agree with that because my mother is Faelid (as is her brother) and she got it from her German part.

It is indeed. One of the biggest bodybuilders is from Hessen, Markus Rühl: https://images.gutefrage.net/media/fragen/bilder/findet-ihr-markus-ruehl-ist-ein-guter-bodybuilder/0_big.jpg?v=1571513558947

Predominantly Faelid I'd say.

[Kyp]

I have never known anyone from central Germany, I don't think these people exist in general. They are like unicorns.

What part would you consider Central Germany?

[Götterfunke]

What part would you consider Central Germany?

Mitteldeutschland, East Germany is where my maternal grandmother was born (Upper Silesia or Oberschlesien).

So, Thuringia, Saxony etc.

I don't know anyone from there, which isn't unusual for people living as close to the Dutch border as I do, I guess.

[Jana]

To me central Germany is Hesse and Thuringia. Franconia too, it isn't really southern.

[Kyp]

Mitteldeutschland, East Germany is where my maternal grandmother was born (Upper Silesia or Oberschlesien).

So, Thuringia, Saxony etc.

I don't know anyone from there, which isn't unusual for people living as close to the Dutch border as I do, I guess.

This is East Germany now though. I think OP meant people who are in the middle of West-East and North-South.

[Jana]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Mitteldeutsche_Mundarten.png

[Götterfunke]

To me central Germany is Hesse and Thuringia. Franconia too, it isn't really southern.

Hessen is the "new" central Germany, due to the "new" borders of Germany.

It used to be considered as a part of West Germany, as you probably know Germany had very different borders just a few decades ago:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Deutsches_Reich_%281871-1918%29-de.svg

Germanic people have been living in Silesia before the birth of christ, which is one of the reasons why it's still universally viewed as German territory by German nationalists.

[Götterfunke]

This is East Germany now though. I think OP meant people who are in the middle of West-East and North-South.

It's the East of the BRD or Federal Republic of Germany.

Eastern territory of the Federal Republic just takes too long and sounds stupid so people say East Germany.

[Jana]

Hessen is the "new" central Germany, due to the "new" borders of Germany.

It used to be considered as a part of West Germany, as you probably know Germany had very different borders just a few decades ago:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Deutsches_Reich_%281871-1918%29-de.svg

Germanic people have been living in Silesia before the birth of christ, which is one of the reasons why it's still universally viewed as German territory by German nationalists.

Yeah, that's true. Maybe central part can be divided into west-central and east-central.

[Götterfunke]

Yeah, that's true. Maybe central part can be divided into west-central and east-central.

Makes significantly more sense than the way it is handled now. According to most DNA-tests I'd be a quarter Eastern European because my grandmother was from "Poland" (Upper Silesia, German territory for millennia)

[Kyp]

This is what I would consider geographical Central Germany (but of course there is no such thing culturally):
Edit could have included all of Franconia actually

https://i.imgur.com/ouDW2uy.png

It's also not a very populated area

[Leto]

It's the East of the BRD or Federal Republic of Germany.

Eastern territory of the Federal Republic just takes too long and sounds stupid so people say East Germany.
Hey Mensch, are you really from the BRD? Why did you not answer Teutone's question in German? I personally don't like the guy myself but he is actually from Germany.

[Satem]

Makes significantly more sense than the way it is handled now. According to most DNA-tests I'd be a quarter Eastern European because my grandmother was from "Poland" (Upper Silesia, German territory for millennia)

If DNA test would show you such result you would have most likely Polish ancestry, but as you don't have any Eastern European ancestors then proboably you would get a result typical for a German person

[Götterfunke]

If DNA test would show you such result you would have most likely Polish ancestry, but as you don't have any Eastern European ancestors then proboably you would get a result typical for a German person

Well 23andme considers me 12% Polish, and AncestryDNA says something about 26% Eastern European ... I've always considered it to be misinterpreted Upper Silesian DNA though (Upper Silesia is close Katowice)

It'd make sense as one of my grandmothers (25% of my DNA) was born there.

We also have no knowledge of Polish names in our family tree at all. It might be theoretically possible that her mother (my great-grandmother) was Polish though as I know nothing about her. She fled to the US after the war and let her children behind, her husband (my great-grandfather) died in battle.

[Token]

Most Germans here in Brazil are Central Germans, more specifically Moselle Franks. I personally know tons of them. I even know a word or two of Hunsruckisch Moselle Franconian, which is almost extinct in Germany but alive and well in south Brazil.

[Finnish Swede]

Are most of Central Germans dark haired and dark eyed?

[Jana]

Well 23andme considers me 12% Polish, and AncestryDNA says something about 26% Eastern European ... I've always considered it to be misinterpreted Upper Silesian DNA though (Upper Silesia is close Katowice)

It'd make sense as one of my grandmothers (25% of my DNA) was born there.

We also have no knowledge of Polish names in our family tree at all. It might be theoretically possible that her mother (my great-grandmother) was Polish though as I know nothing about her. She fled to the US after the war and let her children behind, her husband (my great-grandfather) died in battle.

Germans from Silesia are mixed with Slavs. It's very old admixture from medieval times.

[Jana]

Are most of Central Germans dark haired and dark eyed?

ofcourse not

[Finnish Swede]

ofcourse not

Are they mostly dirty blonds?

[Götterfunke]

Germans from Silesia are mixed with Slavs. It's very old admixture from medieval times.

That ancient admixture shouldn't appear on 23andme or AncestryDNA though as they only check recent ethnicities with rather young control groups.

[Götterfunke]

Germans from Silesia are mixed with Slavs. It's very old admixture from medieval times.

That ancient admixture shouldn't appear on 23andme or AncestryDNA though as they only check recent ethnicities with rather young control groups.

My guess is that I fit the remaining Germans who still live in Silesia and were used for the control groups, and that they count this as Eastern European.

Although I don't know for sure-the mother of my great-grandmother could have been Polish as well. It's just rather unlikely.

[RandomGuy20]

Are most of Central Germans dark haired and dark eyed?

In a sense imo my family from Central-West Germany have darker hair and darker (more "olive" when tanned) complexion compared to their Northern counterparts, blue eyes though.
Generally differing headshape/features in general from what I have observed from central Germans.

[Jana]

That ancient admixture shouldn't appear on 23andme or AncestryDNA though as they only check recent ethnicities with rather young control groups.

They have Polish like admixture.

[Kyp]

Are they mostly dirty blonds?

yes

[Götterfunke]

In a sense imo my family from Central-West Germany have darker hair and darker (more "olive" when tanned) complexion compared to their Northern counterparts, blue eyes though.
Generally differing headshape/features in general from what I have observed from central Germans.

There is a slight "Western" (Mediterranean) influence in West Germany. Joseph Goebbels for example was born not too far from my place, West of Cologne, and he could pass as an Italian: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1968-101-20A%2C_Joseph_Goebbels.jpg

That influence might explain your ancestors olive skintone. Other than that, the Faelid (Phalian), nordic and alpine race used to be dominant here.

[Bender1999]

Google says it’s Thüringen, Sachsen and Sachsen Anhalt, Wikipedia says it includes the „equator“ of Germany. I mean Germany is more known for West/East or South/North differentiation. For the specific areas Germans has specific terms, like Oberbayern, Schwaben, Sauerland etc. The area of Mitteldeutschland is simply known as Thüringen/Erzgebirge.

[RandomGuy20]

There is a slight "Western" (Mediterranean) influence in West Germany. Joseph Goebbels for example was born not too far from my place, West of Cologne, and he could pass as an Italian: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1968-101-20A%2C_Joseph_Goebbels.jpg

That influence might explain your ancestors olive skintone. Other than that, the Faelid (Phalian), nordic and alpine race used to be dominant here.

Yeah definitely agree. My grandma has similar features (Alpine-Med) -

https://i.imgur.com/UbOOTKW.jpg

Central/Western Germany has a very interesting history ay - Celts, Germanics, Romans and some later Italian immigration. Makes for an interesting mishmosh of phenos :D

[andre]

There is a slight "Western" (Mediterranean) influence in West Germany. Joseph Goebbels for example was born not too far from my place, West of Cologne, and he could pass as an Italian: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1968-101-20A%2C_Joseph_Goebbels.jpg

That influence might explain your ancestors olive skintone. Other than that, the Faelid (Phalian), nordic and alpine race used to be dominant here.

Wtf, no he couldn’t pass as italian. He has a very strange face for italy.

[Götterfunke]

Yeah definitely agree. My grandma has similar features (Alpine-Med) -

https://i.imgur.com/UbOOTKW.jpg

Central/Western Germany has a very interesting history ay - Celts, Germanics, Romans and some later Italian immigration. Makes for an interesting mishmosh of phenos :D

Indeed. Although I wouldn't overestimate the Celtic and Roman influence-they were non-Germanics and it was certainly not common practice to marry them (like it is these days where no one cares about ethnicity anymore) ... the same goes for the Slavs in East Germany-they were considered "unfrei" or "unfree" - literally slav(e)s, and a marriage between them and a Germanic person was not legitimate up until the 18th century or so.

Although rape and the occasional mingling surely happened-also the other way around.

[Finnish Swede]

ofcourse not


yes

So they are not mainly dark haired, dark eyed but dirty blonds? So which one (type) they are?

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EX6M0K/nazi-party-wall-chart-pictures-german-races-1-1935-display-boards-EX6M0K.jpg

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b52927413cc0926b3d37e2ca1c7955af.webp




https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-904d6243707d6b40372de933c046cc35

[Götterfunke]

So they are not mainly dark haired, dark eyed but dirty blonds? So which one (type) they are?

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EX6M0K/nazi-party-wall-chart-pictures-german-races-1-1935-display-boards-EX6M0K.jpg

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b52927413cc0926b3d37e2ca1c7955af.webp




https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-904d6243707d6b40372de933c046cc35

All these races are present in all of Germany (and Europe) ...

South West Germany (Baden-Württemberg) has more alpine (ostisch) influence, South East Germany (Bavaria) has alpine (ostisch) and dinarid (dinarisch) influence.

North Germany has more nordic (nordisch) influence, albeit not extremely much so.

West Germany (Hesse, North Rhine-Westphalia) has faelid (fälisch) and mediterranean (westisch) influence, although nordic (nordisch) and alpine (ostisch) people are present here too.

The very East of Germany (Silesia and Königsberg or "Kaliningrad", nowadays considered parts of Poland and Russia) have east baltid (ostbaltisch) influence.

All of these races can be found anywhere in Germany, especially in modern times, so it's nearly impossible to give you a clear distinction of what people in German areas look like.

One can only try to narrow it down a bit.

[Finnish Swede]

All these races are present in all of Germany (and Europe) ...

South West Germany has more alpine (ostisch) influence, South East Germany has alpine (ostisch) and dinarid (dinarisch) influence.

North Germany has more nordic (nordisch) influence, albeit not extremely much so.

West Germany (Hesse, North Rhine-Westphalia) has faelid (fälisch) and mediterranean (westisch) influence, although nordic (nordisch) and alpine (ostisch) people are present here too.

The very East of Germany (Silesia and Königsberg, nowadays considered parts of Poland and Russia) have east baltid (ostbaltisch) influence.

All of these races can be found anywhere in Germany, especially in modern times, so it's nearly impossible to give you a clear distinction of what people in German areas look like.

One can only narrow it down a bit.


Some looks pretty ''wierd'' to say nicely.

[Kyp]

So they are not mainly dark haired, dark eyed but dirty blonds? So which one (type) they are?



They don't have a dominant type. I wonder when people will realize...
Differences in Germany are gradual and cannot be judged on indiviudal basis. For example people like Mats Hummels, people on TA automatically assume he is Southern German but he is North/Western.

Especially in Central Germany there are not dominant types.

[Harald Meller]

Makes significantly more sense than the way it is handled now. According to most DNA-tests I'd be a quarter Eastern European because my grandmother was from "Poland" (Upper Silesia, German territory for millennia)

https://archive.org/details/diepoleninobersc00webeuoft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Upper_Silesia#Historical_population

https://i.imgur.com/3Aq6me1.png

[Harald Meller]

^^^
As you can see most of Upper Silesia were Wasser Polacken. Only these parts were majority German in the 1800s:

Kreis Neustadt O.S. - 50% German (1867 census)
Kreis Falkenberg O.S. - 79% German (1834 census)
Kreis Leobschütz - 82% German (1831 census)
Kreis Grottkau - 98% German
Kreis Neisse - 98% German

In all other counties ethnic Germans were minority, so Slavic genetics had to be predominant all over this territory.

[Lucas]

^^ Hi Peterski:))))

[Immanenz]

They don't have a dominant type. I wonder when people will realize...
Differences in Germany are gradual and cannot be judged on indiviudal basis. For example people like Mats Hummels, people on TA automatically assume he is Southern German but he is North/Western.

Especially in Central Germany there are not dominant types.

This- it will take a long time for people to sink in. Germans are pretty diverse, even though there are some phenos that are stereotypical.

[Proud Celt]

Indeed. Although I wouldn't overestimate the Celtic and Roman influence-they were non-Germanics and it was certainly not common practice to marry them (like it is these days where no one cares about ethnicity anymore) ... the same goes for the Slavs in East Germany-they were considered "unfrei" or "unfree" - literally slav(e)s, and a marriage between them and a Germanic person was not legitimate up until the 18th century or so.

Although rape and the occasional mingling surely happened-also the other way around.

Doesn't nearly everyone east of the elbe has some slavic ancestry? Just look at the surnames there.

[Harald Meller]

Most Germans here in Brazil are Central Germans, more specifically Moselle Franks.

But genetically they are West Germans. Are there Central Germans in a genetic sense?