The "Long s" (ſ)

[The Lawspeaker]

The Long s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s) was once in common use in several European languages like Dutch and English and disappeared in the 19th century.

An example. From the King James Bible of 1611:

37. Pilate therefore ſaide unto him, Art thou a King then? Ieſus answered, Thou ſaieſt that I am a King. To this end was I borne, and for this cauſe came I into the world, that I ſhould beare witneſſe unto the trueth: euery one that is of the trueth heareth my uoice.
38 . Pilate ſaith unto him, What is trueth? And when hee had ſaid this, he went out againe unto the Iewes, and ſaith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

A Dutch example (Statenbijbel of 1637):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Statenvertaling_title_page.jpg

Title page of the Dutch Statenvertaling (State Translation).
English transcript:

BIBLE, that is: The entire H. Scripture, containing all the Canonical Books of the Old and the New TESTAMENTS. Now first, by order of the High LORDS STATES GENERAL of the United Netherlands, and according to the Decision of the National Synod, held at Dordrecht, in the Years 1618 and 1619. From the Original languages into our Dutch language faithfully translated. With new added Clarifications of the dark passages, notes of the paralleled Texts, and new Indexes of both TESTAMENTS.

[The Lawspeaker]

If I were to write the name Gronsveld ( a village in Limburg) or Sassenheim would it be Gronſveld and Saſſenheim or would it be written as Sasſenheim ?

[Odoacer]

Some additional information: Long s still appears, in ligatured form, in the the German "letter" Eszett ß, which evolved from the combination ſz. The sound represented by this combination was once distinct from that of ſſ (medial form) & ſs (final form), but as the language changed the sounds merged, & ß began to be used to differentiate long vowels from short vowels, or "sharp s" [s] from the [z] sound represented by a single s. Nowadays, official German orthographical rules suggest ß only following diphthongs & long vowels.


If I were to write the name Gronsveld ( a village in Limburg) or Sassenheim would it be Gronſveld and Saſſenheim or would it be written as Sasſenheim ?

It would be Saſſenheim, since it's medial. To my knowledge, sſ was never used, while ſs would only occur finally. There are some other odd rules; note on the Statenbijbel title page: laſt ("order") & van Ravenſteyn (the printer), but duystere ("dark") & Registers ("Indexes"). These are all the same /st/ sound! (TESTAMENTS & TESTAMENTEM aren't considered since these are printed entirely in majuscule.) Apparently st was used medially, but ſt when it began or ended a complete word-component. Thus it is possible Gronsveld would not be written the the long s at all. On the other hand, some Dutch patronymics used ſ, e.g., Jacobſzoon - I don't know enough to say whether here it is a genitive inflection, thus not strictly final to the first component Jacob, or something else.

[The Lawspeaker]

Some additional information: Long s still appears, in ligatured form, in the the German "letter" Eszett ß, which evolved from the combination ſz. The sound represented by this combination was once distinct from that of ſſ (medial form) & ſs (final form), but as the language changed the sounds merged, & ß began to be used to differentiate long vowels from short vowels, or "sharp s" [s] from the [z] sound represented by a single s. Nowadays, official German orthographical rules suggest ß only following diphthongs & long vowels.
Makes me wonder whether we shouldn't ressurect the letter and use it to denote the use of a dual S so that Sassenheim would be written as Saſenheim. As we have an awful lot of the dual s combination: wassen, tussen, lossen etc etc. Words that for a long time (until after the Second World War) were written as tuschen, lossen. Which shows all too clearly that German and Dutch were very closely alligned.




It would be Saſſenheim, since it's medial. To my knowledge, sſ was never used, while ſs would only occur finally. There are some other odd rules; note on the Statenbijbel title page: laſt ("order") & van Ravenſteyn (the printer), but duystere ("dark") & Registers ("Indexes"). These are all the same /st/ sound! (TESTAMENTS & TESTAMENTEM aren't considered since these are printed entirely in majuscule.) Apparently st was used medially, but ſt when it began or ended a complete word-component.
I can understand why they dropped it. They had some really peculiar spelling back then and the worst thing was that wasn't standardised at all.


Thus it is possible Gronsveld would not be written the the long s at all.
Actually Dutch wikipedia (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lange_s) stated here that it is named Groesselt in Limburgic dialect and that the spelling back in the day was Groesſelt which got mistaked a lot for Groesfelt ( as the f and the ſ look a lot like each other) and thus ended up being spelled as Gronsveld.




On the other hand, some Dutch patronymics used ſ, e.g., Jacobſzoon - I don't know enough to say whether here it is a genitive inflection, thus not strictly final to the first component Jacob, or something else.
That's indeed possible although in the written form it was usually written as Jacobsz (to make things even more complicated).

[Odoacer]

Makes me wonder whether we shouldn't ressurect the letter and use it to denote the use of a dual S so that Sassenheim would be written as Saſenheim. As we have an awful lot of the dual s combination: wassen, tussen, lossen etc etc.

Resurrecting it would produce a lot of problems unless it were more strongly differentiated from f.


I can understand why they dropped it. They had some really peculiar spelling back then and the worst thing was that wasn't standardised at all.

Well, apart from the troubles that the Normans caused to the English language, it was after all some Dutch printers that permanently ruined English spelling. ;) (To be fair, English printers trained in the Low Countries.)



Actually Dutch wikipedia (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lange_s) stated here that it is named Groesselt in Limburgic dialect and that the spelling back in the day was Groesſelt which got mistaked a lot for Groesfelt ( as the f and the ſ look a lot like each other) and thus ended up being spelled as Gronsveld.

Ah, very interesting. Does this name have any meaning? It is groes + selt?


That's indeed possible although in the written form it was usually written as Jacobsz (to make things even more complicated). [/FONT]

Right, so Jacobſz. Incidentally, how would that be pronounced?

[The Lawspeaker]

Resurrecting it would produce a lot of problems unless it were more strongly differentiated from f.
It might create a problem for high school students so maybe the letter would need to be altered with a stripe pointing the other way.




Well, apart from the troubles that the Normans caused to the English language, it was after all some Dutch printers that permanently ruined English spelling. ;) (To be fair, English printers trained in the Low Countries.)
And that must have been a lot then as the Netherlands were the printing capital of the world. But then English spelling was just being standard and it seemed to have given a lot of trouble back then.




Ah, very interesting. Does this name have any meaning? It is groes + selt?
It is uncertain but Groêselt or Groéselt probably means "green field" or "green pasture".




Right, so Jacobſz. Incidentally, how would that be pronounced?
Hmm Dutch pronunciation is impossible for foreigners. Try this (http://nl.forvo.com/word/jacob_de_gheyn/). And the O in zoon like in Obama as it is a long O. But less pronounced.

[Odoacer]

It might create a problem for high school students so maybe the letter would need to be altered with a stripe pointing the other way.

Frankly I think ß would probably be better for this purpose than ſ. But to be honest, ss isn't all that bad. ;)


And that must have been a lot then as the Netherlands were the printing capital of the world. But then English spelling was just being standard and it seemed to have given a lot of trouble back then.

Indeed!


It is uncertain but Groêselt or Groéselt probably means "green field" or "green pasture".

Well, if that's the case, isn't veld standard Dutch for "field"? So Gronsveld could just be a translation? Although I suppose grons is a rather irregular form for "green." :confused:


Hmm Dutch pronunciation is impossible for foreigners. Try this (http://nl.forvo.com/word/jacob_de_gheyn/). And the O in zoon like in Obama as it is a long O. But less pronounced.

Hey now, if I can learn to pronounce Mandarin, surely I can learn Dutch pronunciation. :lol: So would you still say "Jacobszoon" even though you write Jacobsz? Is the latter just an abbreviation? From what I can tell, the IPA transliteration of the Dutch pronunciation should be [ˈjɑkɔbˌzoːn]. The difference you hear in the o in Obama is probably because in English our long o is a diphthong, [oʊ].

[The Lawspeaker]

Frankly I think ß would probably be better for this purpose than ſ. But to be honest, ss isn't all that bad. ;)
While Dutch and German are closely alligned and while I think that the spelling should be brought back (for a large part) to a simplified version of the De Vries and Te Winkel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_orthography#The_De_Vries_and_Te_W inkel_spelling_.281864.2C_Belgium.3B_1883.2C_The_N etherlands.29) - spelling of 1883, I still think that we should have a slightly different letter to reflect our linguistic independence. ;)



Well, if that's the case, isn't veld standard Dutch for "field"? So Gronsveld could just be a translation? Although I suppose grons is a rather irregular form for "green." :confused:
Yes, veld means field, pasture.
"Grons"is probably a corrupted form of the local word at the time.



Hey now, if I can learn to pronounce Mandarin, surely I can learn Dutch pronunciation. :lol: So would you still say "Jacobszoon" even though you write Jacobsz? Is the latter just an abbreviation?
Then I am quite sure you will be alright. The sz. was an abbrevation but the full name although the abbrevation was also used and corrupted to Jacobs. Patronymics were replaced by compulsory fixed last names (for the most part.. some were of course much older like mine) while we were under French rule so to meet a woman called Jacobs would be quite funny if you would understand the origins as zoon means son - son of.. :D

[Odoacer]

While Dutch and German are closely alligned and while I think that the spelling should be brought back (for a large part) to a simplified version of the De Vries and Te Winkel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_orthography#The_De_Vries_and_Te_W inkel_spelling_.281864.2C_Belgium.3B_1883.2C_The_N etherlands.29) - spelling of 1883, I still think that we should have a slightly different letter to reflect our linguistic independence. ;)

Fair enough! That point - linguistic independence - did cross my mind.


Yes, veld means field, pasture.
"Grons"is probably a corrupted form of the local word at the time.

If so, then I still favor the theory that Gronsveld would not use the long s, at least not in the standard Dutch form. :D

[The Lawspeaker]

Fair enough! That point - linguistic independence - did cross my mind.
:D Just some Dutch nationalism.




If so, then I still favor the theory that Gronsveld would not use the long s, at least not in the standard Dutch form. :D
While I would prefer that it would unless we would use the ſ to denote a dual S.