Kurds: Rank from closer to further

[Zoro]

Here's another trivia question to give me an idea of what people think about Iraqi Kurmanji Kurds. Rank the following populations from closer to further from Kurmanji Kurds. Don't worry about guessing wrong.



1- Chechens
2- Bulgarians
3- Adygei
4- N Ossetians
5- Brahui
6- Iranian Baloch
7- Armenians
8- Georgians
9- Assyrians
10- Druze

I'll post the answers tomorrow according to Reich lab ADMIXTOOLS (formal stats)

[Kyp]

1. Armenians
2. Assyrians
3. Georgians
4. Baloch
5. Ossetians
6. Druze
7. Chechen
8. Brahui
9. Adygei
10. Bulgarians

[Zoro]

1. Armenians
2. Assyrians
3. Georgians
4. Baloch
5. Ossetians
6. Druze
7. Chechen
8. Brahui
9. Adygei
10. Bulgarians

You almost got Bulgarians correct they're no 9. The rest were slightly off. Here's a hint Armenians and Assyrians are not the top 2.

[FinalFlash]

You almost got Bulgarians correct they're no 9. The rest were slightly off. Here's a hint Armenians and Assyrians are not the top 2.

Bruh when are you gonna show us that calc and how it works?

[harutsafaryan07]

..

[Trouble]

1. Armenians
2. Assyrians
3. Druze
4.Chechen/Adygei/N-Ossetian(all the same roughly)
5.Georgians
6. Iranian Baloch
7. Brahui
8. Bulgarians

Eagerly awaiting the answer. I picked mine on the (rough) idea of my experiences modeling various populations using G25. I understand different tools might give different answers.

[Zoro]

Bruh when are you gonna show us that calc and how it works?

Patience bro. In the meantime you can do online search for the qpWave program to get some ideas of how it works. It's an ingenious concept that is very different from the Admixture or PCA concept.

[Zoro]

1. Armenians
2. Assyrians
3. Druze
4.Chechen/Adygei/N-Ossetian(all the same roughly)
5.Georgians
6. Iranian Baloch
7. Brahui
8. Bulgarians

Eagerly awaiting the answer. I picked mine on the (rough) idea of my experiences modeling various populations using G25. I understand different tools might give different answers.

Interesting but I already hinted that Bulgarians are no 9 and Assyrians and Armenians are not top 2. It may be helpful to think of ancient populations and branching points to get to the correct answers or in other words the TOTAL history of Kurd ancestors and not just their whereabouts in historical times.

[Zoro]

Hints:

Druze no 10
Bulgarians no 9
Georgians no 6
Assyrians no 7
N. Ossetians no 8

[Lucas]

Ok, educataed guess



Adygei
Chechens
Armenians
Iranian Baloch
Brahui

[Eline]

You almost got Bulgarians correct they're no 9. The rest were slightly off. Here's a hint Armenians and Assyrians are not the top 2.Compared to the Kurds, the Armenians and the Assyrians are much more shifted toward the Levant

I expected Georgians to be in the top 3.

1- Iranian Baloch
2- Adygei
3- Armenians
4- Chechens
5- Brahui

Georgians
Assyrians
N. Ossetians
Bulgarians
Druze

[Eline]

Iranian Baloch have their roots in West Asia (Kurdistan). That's why they are at the first place.

Kurds (Gutians) have a lot links with Maykop/Kura-Araxes and that's why NorthWest Caucasian Adygei people cluster very close to the Kurds.

Armenians are Kurdish neighbors, but while Armenia as land is above Kurdistan, still Armenians cluster closer to the Levant (Mediterranean). Armenians have more 'Semitic' in them than the Kurds.

Chechens have also a lot Maykop ancestry.

Brahui are connected with the Kurds because of the ancient Iranian_NEO farmer admixture in both groups

[FinalFlash]

Compared to the Kurds, the Armenians and the Assyrians are much more shifted toward the Levant

I expected Georgians to be in the top 3.

1- Iranian Baloch
2- Adygei
3- Armenians
4- Chechens
5- Brahui

Georgians
Assyrians
N. Ossetians
Bulgarians
Druze

Yeah, not really. Armenians and Kurds seem to be roughly equal in their Levant shiftedness. Assyrians are a different story altogether.

[Eline]

Yeah, not really. Armenians and Kurds seem to be roughly equal in their Levant shiftedness. Assyrians are a different story altogether.No, Armenians are really shifted more toward the Levant or the Mediterranean Sea. Kurds are more shifted toward the Caspian Sea (Leyla Tepe) and Maykop.

1- Iranian Baloch (original homeland of Baloch is Kurdistan)
2- Adygei (Maykop/Kura Araxes/Leyla Tepe connection)
3- Armenians (Urartu-Hurrian connection)
4- Chechens (Maykop + ChL_Iran)
5- Brahui (Iran_NEO)

[FinalFlash]

No, Armenians are really shifted more toward the Levant or the Mediterranean Sea. Kurds are more shifted toward the Caspian Sea (Leyla Tepe) and Maykop.

1- Iranian Baloch (original homeland of Baloch is Kurdistan)
2- Adygei (Maykop/Kura Araxes/Leyla Tepe connection)
3- Armenians (Hurrians)
4- Chechens (Maykop + ChL_Iran)
5- Brahui (Iran_NEO)

Armenians are more EEF shifted than Kurds, yes but Levantine affinities of Armenians and Kurds are roughly about the same. Assyrians are a different story as I've mentioned earlier.

[Eline]

Armenians are more EEF shifted than Kurds, yes but Levantine affinities of Armenians and Kurds are roughly about the same. Assyrians are a different story as I've mentioned earlier.Armenians have more EEF or ANF, Anatolian Neolithic Farmer admixture. But the ancient Anatolian Neolithic Farmer admixture had aleady a lot Levant admixture. This is the main reason why Armenians are shifted more toward the Levant than the Kurds.

The reason why Armenians have more Levant admixture than Kurds is due to higher Anatolian Neolithic Farmer admixture.

Also don't forget that Armenians and Assyrians are more mixed with each other, because Christianity connects both groups.

[Hapanuwa]

1. Druze
2. Armenians
3. Assyrians
4. Iranian Balochs
5. N Ossetians
6. Chechens
7. Georgians
8. Brahui
9. Adygei
10. Bulgarians

[FinalFlash]

Armenians have more EEF or ANF, Anatolian Neolithic Farmer admixture. But the ancient Anatolian Neolithic Farmer admixture had aleady a lot Levant admixture. This is the main reason why Armenians are shifted more toward the Levant than the Kurds.

The reason why Armenians have more Levant admixture than Kurds is due to higher Anatolian Neolithic Farmer admixture.

Also don't forget that Armenians and Assyrians are more mixed with each other, because Christianity connects both groups.

Only the southernmost Armenians may have contributed to the modern day Assyrian genepool. This doesn't apply to those from the current republic and surrounding areas. As far as EEF admixture, I'm not too sure if it contains much neolithic Levantine admixture. If anything ancient Levantine samples seem to contain large portions of EEF, not the other way around.

You also have to remember that while Armenians are more EEF shifted than Kurds, they are also more CHG shifted than Kurds as well hence a much stronger genetic connection to Northeastern black sea natives, Laz included when compared with Kurds. Something that's also lacking among Assyrians.

[Eline]

1. Druze
2. Armenians
3. Assyrians
4. Iranian Balochs
5. N Ossetians
6. Chechens
7. Georgians
8. Brahui
9. Adygei
10. BulgariansRead post #9

Druze are at the last place.

[Hapanuwa]

Read post #9

Druze are at the last place.

I just read. But this was my initial thought

[Eline]

Only the southernmost Armenians may have contributed to the modern day Assyrian genepool. This doesn't apply to those from the current republic and surrounding areas. As far as EEF admixture, I'm not too sure if it contains much neolithic Levantine admixture. If anything ancient Levantine samples seem to contain large portions of EEF, not the other way around.

You also have to remember that while Armenians are more EEF shifted than Kurds, they are also more CHG shifted than Kurds as well hence a much stronger genetic connection to Northeastern black sea natives, Laz included when compared with Kurds. Something that's also lacking among Assyrians.Not really. Kurds have much more CHG than the Armenians. Armenians have more EEF/ANF.

Kurds are mostly Iran_ChL and Iran_CHL is mostly CHG with some Iran_NEO & Anatolian_NEO in it.

[Eline]

I just read. But this was my initial thoughtYour instinct is wrong. :thumb001:

Even Turks are closer to Druze.

[FinalFlash]

Not really. Kurds have much more CHG than the Armenians. Armenians have more EEF/ANF.

Kurds are mostly Iran_ChL and Iran_CHL is mostly CHG with some Iran_NEO & Anatolian_NEO in it.

Kurds universally on any calculator I've ever ran are far more Iran_N than CHG whereas Armenians seem to score a good amount of both. If Kurds were more CHG-like then the closest genetic relatives of Kurds wouldn't be Iranic speakers and Azeris. Also, you're completely ignoring the Armenia MBA contribution to the Armenian gene pool.

[Eline]

Kurds universally on any calculator I've ever ran are far more Iran_N than CHG whereas Armenians seem to score a good amount of both. If Kurds were more CHG-like then the closest genetic relatives of Kurds wouldn't be Iranic speakers and Azeris. Also, you're completely ignoring the Armenia MBA contribution to the Armenian gene pool.Kurds are the original people of the West Iranic race and they are still the most 'archaic' one. Proto-West-Iranics were mostly Iran_ChL people and Iran_ChL is mostly CHG.

Armenians have a lot Levant-Anatolian stuff in them.


Iran_ChL = 63,1% CHG + 20,2% Anatolia_ChL + 16,7% Iran_N.


https://i.postimg.cc/x87shMRV/Iran-ChL.jpg

[Hapanuwa]

Your instinct is wrong. :thumb001:

Even Turks are closer to Druze.

Yes, i didn't expect to be right. Ones read a theory about Druzes having Kurdish origins.

Nvm got mixed up with Yezidis lol

[FinalFlash]

Kurds are the original people of the West Iranic race and they are still the most 'archaic' one. Proto-West-Iranics were mostly Iran_ChL people and Iran_ChL is mostly CHG.

Armenians have a lot Levant-Anatolian stuff in them.


Iran_ChL = 63,1% CHG + 20,2% Anatolia_ChL + 16,7% Iran_N.


https://i.postimg.cc/x87shMRV/Iran-ChL.jpg

Again, the Levant stuff is overstated. Besides, how do you figure Kurds are more CHG oriented when Armenians have lots of contribution from Armenia MBA? Not to mention Armenians having closer affinity to CHG-heavy populations relative to Kurds?

[Eline]

Yes, i didn't expect to be right. Ones read a theory about Druzes having Kurdish origins.

Nvm got mixed up with Yezidis lolI think it is a very false theory that Druze have Kurdish-Yezidi DNA. It is possible that Druze have some West Asian DNA, but that mostly because of the Urartu/Hurrians and later because of Saladin/Kurds who ruled the Levant.

But at the end of the day Druze are the Semitic speaking people.

[Halgurd]

There are some Druze clans (like the Janpolad/Jumblatt) who claim Kurdish origins though. Surely that would bring them closer to us?

[Halgurd]

I think it is a very false theory that Druze have Kurdish-Yezidi DNA. It is possible that Druze have some West Asian DNA, but that mostly because of the Urartu/Hurrians and later because of Saladin/Kurds who ruled the Levant.

Someone from the Jamblutt family in Lebanon tested E-V13, E-CTS1273 —> Z40644 which seems to be a Kurdish clade.

http://corduene.blogspot.com/2016/03/kurdish-tribes-y-dna-haplogroups.html

[Eline]

Again, the Levant stuff is overstated. Besides, how do you figure Kurds are more CHG oriented when Armenians have lots of contribution from Armenia MBA? Not to mention Armenians having closer affinity to CHG-heavy populations relative to Kurds?As you can see Armenia_MLBA is only 34.4% CHG, while Iran_ChL is 63.1% CHG. Kurds are mostly Iran_ChL people + some minor DNA from the Northern Caucasus. That's why Kurds are mostly CHG people, more than Armenians are.

Armenia_EBA = 60.3 % CHG. Still less than Iran_ChL.

[Eline]

Someone from the Jamblutt family in Lebanon tested E-V13, E-CTS1273 —> Z40644 which seems to be a Kurdish clade.

http://corduene.blogspot.com/2016/03/kurdish-tribes-y-dna-haplogroups.html'Some' means very, very small minority and that has to be to do with Saladin. But Kurdish admixture in this Semitic group is already heavily diluted.

[FinalFlash]

As you can see Armenia_MLBA is only 34.4% CHG, while Iran_ChL is 63.1% CHG. Kurds are mostly Iran_ChL people + some minor DNA from the Northern Caucasus. That's why Kurds are mostly CHG people, more than Armenians are.

Armenia_EBA = 60.3 % CHG. Still less than Iran_ChL.

I'm not too sure about that. If Kurds are mostly CHG people then why not use CHG when making runs for Kurds? Surely if they are mostly CHG then it would show, would it not? Surely they wouldn't cluster with Iranic speakers but with Kartvelians for example or even Northeastern natives of Turkey? That doesn't seem to be the case. I fail to see how Kurds are more CHG shifted when genetics and phenotypes suggest the exact opposite.

[Eline]

Here you can see that the ancient 'Armenia' is more shifted southwards toward the Mediterranean Sea than Iran_ChL

https://i.postimg.cc/63L8YTXt/wykres-PCA.png

[Kyp]

I'm not too sure about that. If Kurds are mostly CHG people then why not use CHG when making runs for Kurds? Surely if they are mostly CHG then it would show, would it not? Surely they wouldn't cluster with Iranic speakers but with Kartvelians for example or even Northeastern natives of Turkey? That doesn't seem to be the case. I fail to see how Kurds are more CHG shifted when genetics and phenotypes suggest the exact opposite.

It's probably because CHG and Iran_Neo doesn't plot far from each other?

[Eline]

I'm not too sure about that. If Kurds are mostly CHG people then why not use CHG when making runs for Kurds? Surely if they are mostly CHG then it would show, would it not? Surely they wouldn't cluster with Iranic speakers but with Kartvelians for example or even Northeastern natives of Turkey? That doesn't seem to be the case. I fail to see how Kurds are more CHG shifted when genetics and phenotypes suggest the exact opposite.See the PCA above.

CHG in Kurds is hidden in their Iran_ChL. Iran_ChL is derived mostly from CHG

[Eline]

It's probably because CHG and Iran_Neo doesn't plot far from each other?
CHG = 71.6% Iran_NEO + 21.4% EHG + 7% WHG

https://i.postimg.cc/SsW4dQ7r/123.jpg

[FinalFlash]

It's probably because CHG and Iran_Neo doesn't plot far from each other?

Our friend was talking about Iran_Chl being mostly CHG. If that's the case then there should be no reason for Kurds not to score lots of CHG on those calculator runs if indeed they have real CHG ancestry. CHG-heavy populations would also likely cluster closest with Kartvelian groups as well which doesn't seem to be the case for Kurds or any Iranic speaker for that matter.

[Kyp]

Our friend was talking about Iran_Chl being mostly CHG. If that's the case then there should be no reason for Kurds not to score lots of CHG on those calculator runs if indeed they have real CHG ancestry. CHG-heavy populations would also likely cluster closest with Kartvelian groups as well which doesn't seem to be the case for Kurds or any Iranic speaker for that matter.

I think Iran CHL is basically a mix of Iran_Neo and some Anatolian/CHG related stuff making it plot very close to CHG.
Modern Iranians are a mix of Iran_Chl + [Steppe+Iran_Neo]

[Zoro]

Ok, educataed guess



Adygei
Chechens
Armenians
Iranian Baloch
Brahui

You and Eline seem to have the closest guesses.

[Eline]

Our friend was talking about Iran_Chl being mostly CHG. If that's the case then there should be no reason for Kurds not to score lots of CHG on those calculator runs if indeed they have real CHG ancestry. CHG-heavy populations would also likely cluster closest with Kartvelian groups as well which doesn't seem to be the case for Kurds or any Iranic speaker for that matter.
I don't understand why the fuss? Armenians have less of CHG than Kurds, mostly because Armenians have more Anatolian admixture., just like the ancient Hittites, Mycenaeans etc. who were also more Anatolian shifted.
Kurds have more CHG/Iran_ChL/Iran_Neo than the Armenians. That's a fact. On PCA charts Kurds and other 'pure' NorthWest Iranic people cluster closer to the Caucasus people than the Armenians do.

Where do you DNA in Kurds is from at the first place??


Kurds cluster even much closer to the Caucasus groups than the so called 'Iranians'

https://i.postimg.cc/GtKqwck1/Naamloos.png

[FinalFlash]

I don’t know why the fuss. Armenians have less of CHG than Kurds, mostly because Armenians have more Anatolian admixture., just like the ancient Hittites, Mycenaeans etc. who were also more Anatolian shifted.
Kurds have more CHG/Iran_ChL/Iran_Neo than the Armenians. That’s a facts. On PCA charts Kurds and other ‘pure’ NorthWest Iranic people cluster closer to Caucasus people than the Armenians do.

Where do you Kurds DNA in Kurds is from at the first place??


Kurds cluster even much closer to the Caucasus groups than the so called 'Iranians'

https://i.postimg.cc/GtKqwck1/Naamloos.png

Then why do Armenians cluster closest to(often times) Pontic Greeks and Trabzon Turks who are CHG-heavy populations(less so than Georgians of course)? Why are Armenians relatively closer to Kartvelian groups like the Laz than Kurds are to them? Is G25 or Vahaduo wrong?

[Zoro]

Ok here we go I have also included other populations for reference. Populations shaded red are close enough to Kurds to almost be considered a single group. Think of p-values as something like probabilities that Kurds and that group can be sister clades. Scientific papers consider anything above p-value 0.05 as significant.

So basically the top couple populations can almost be modelled as 100% Kurds



<colgroup width="166"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="140"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpWave – Test, Kurd-Kurmanji-Iraq Cladiness Check – Rank 0


SAMPLE
CHI SQ
P-value
SNPs USED


.Kurds_Feyli_IQ
4.73
0.981
90184


.Kurd_Kurmanji
6.61
0.921
303019


Iranian.DG
6.73
0.916
279965


.Kurd_Yazidi
8.03
0.842
247231


.Iranian_NW
10.09
0.687
182540


.Kurd_Sorani
10.25
0.673
248590


Adygei.DG
17.83
0.164
281434


Lezgin.DG
18.84
0.128
282336


.Baloch_IR
19.65
0.104
188079


Chechen.DG
21.51
0.063
379199


Brahui.DG
21.69
0.060
279141


Armenian.DG
22.25
0.052
282186


Greek.DG
27.02
0.012
282225


Jew_Iraqi.DG
28.13
0.009
281309


Georgian.DG
28.24
0.008
281674


Cretan.DG
28.51
0.008
281398


.Assyrians
28.67
0.007
186187


Russia_NOssetian.DG
30.88
0.004
280617


Bulgarian
33.62
0.001
280566


Druze.DG
35.79
0.001
282786


Balochi.DG
41.60
0.000
280097


.Pashtun_Afg
42.45
0.000
182127


Polish.DG
53.19
0.000
376550


Basque.DG
66.30
0.000
280394


Sardinian.DG
68.97
0.000
232474


Kalash.DG
69.77
0.000
283488


Sindhi.DG
72.71
0.000
278658


BedouinB.DG
91.63
0.000
284854


Estonian.DG
92.70
0.000
278977


Finnish_1000G
132.82
0.000
81992


Bashkir.DG
151.11
0.000
243901


Saami.DG
166.78
0.000
278445


Turkmen.DG
223.08
0.000
385491


Gujarati_1000G
269.19
0.000
80458


Irula.DG
310.61
0.000
275351


Kazakh.DG
477.04
0.000
243031


Buryat.SG
806.49
0.000
373197


Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG
807.67
0.000
222557


Yakut.DG
944.80
0.000
275842


Burmese.DG
962.59
0.000
272387


Somali.DG
1,006.77
0.000
355138


Mongola.DG
1,107.77
0.000
275062


Dai.DG
1,243.92
0.000
200559


Chinese_Han_1000G
1,653.02
0.000
101885


Bougainville.DG
1,869.35
0.000
283417


Esan.DG
2,680.72
0.000
251172

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[Kyp]

Then why do Armenians cluster closest to(often times) Pontic Greeks and Trabzon Turks who are CHG-heavy populations(less so than Georgians of course)? Why are Armenians relatively closer to Kartvelian groups like the Laz than Kurds are to them? Is G25 or Vahaduo wrong?

The way I see it Armenia has more direct recent CHG ancestry. But if you combine all CHG/Iran Neo etc. maybe Kurds cluster closer to CHG on PCA charts.

[Eline]

Then why do Armenians cluster closest to(often times) Pontic Greeks and Trabzon Turks who are CHG-heavy populations(less so than Georgians of course)? Why are Armenians relatively closer to Kartvelian groups like the Laz than Kurds are to them? Is G25 or Vahaduo wrong?Pontic Greeks and Trabzon Turks have a lot Anatolian in them. Greeks are Mediterranean people. Like Armenians they are also shifted more toward the Levant. Like ancient Hittites and Mycenaeans

When I think of CHG, I think of Adygei people and no the Pontic Greeks, lmao.


Really, Kurds are shifted more toward the Caucasus and the Caspian Sea than the Armenians do, mostly because Armenians have more Anatolian_NEO in them.

[FinalFlash]

The way I see it Armenia has more direct recent CHG ancestry. But if you combine all CHG/Iran Neo etc. maybe Kurds cluster closer to CHG on PCA charts.

I can see Kurds clustering closer to Ossetians and Dagestan Azeris because of the Iran_N input in the aformentioned groups, yes. But I don't see how they would be closer to the general Caucasus region as a whole.

[FinalFlash]

Pontic Greeks and Trabzon Turks have a lot Anatolian in them. Greeks are Mediterranean people. Like Armenians they are also shifted more toward the Levant. Like ancient Hittites and Mycenaeans

When I think of CHG, I think of Adygei people and no the Pontic Greeks, lmao.


Really, Kurds are shifted more toward the Caucasus and the Caspian Sea than the Armenians do, mostly because Armenians have more Anatolian_NEO in them.

The most CHG rich groups are Kartvelians and Armenians are closer to them than Kurds are. So how exactly can that be?

[FinalFlash]

Ok here we go I have also included other populations for reference. Populations shaded red are close enough to Kurds to almost be considered a single group. Think of p-values as something like probabilities that Kurds and that group can be sister clades. Scientific papers consider anything above p-value 0.05 as significant.

So basically the top couple populations can almost be modelled as 100% Kurds



<colgroup width="166"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="140"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpWave – Test, Kurd-Kurmanji-Iraq Cladiness Check – Rank 0


SAMPLE
CHI SQ
P-value
SNPs USED


.Kurds_Feyli_IQ
4.73
0.981
90184


.Kurd_Kurmanji
6.61
0.921
303019


Iranian.DG
6.73
0.916
279965


.Kurd_Yazidi
8.03
0.842
247231


.Iranian_NW
10.09
0.687
182540


.Kurd_Sorani
10.25
0.673
248590


Adygei.DG
17.83
0.164
281434


Lezgin.DG
18.84
0.128
282336


.Baloch_IR
19.65
0.104
188079


Chechen.DG
21.51
0.063
379199


Brahui.DG
21.69
0.060
279141


Armenian.DG
22.25
0.052
282186


Greek.DG
27.02
0.012
282225


Jew_Iraqi.DG
28.13
0.009
281309


Georgian.DG
28.24
0.008
281674


Cretan.DG
28.51
0.008
281398


.Assyrians
28.67
0.007
186187


Russia_NOssetian.DG
30.88
0.004
280617


Bulgarian
33.62
0.001
280566


Druze.DG
35.79
0.001
282786


Balochi.DG
41.60
0.000
280097


.Pashtun_Afg
42.45
0.000
182127


Polish.DG
53.19
0.000
376550


Basque.DG
66.30
0.000
280394


Sardinian.DG
68.97
0.000
232474


Kalash.DG
69.77
0.000
283488


Sindhi.DG
72.71
0.000
278658


BedouinB.DG
91.63
0.000
284854


Estonian.DG
92.70
0.000
278977


Finnish_1000G
132.82
0.000
81992


Bashkir.DG
151.11
0.000
243901


Saami.DG
166.78
0.000
278445


Turkmen.DG
223.08
0.000
385491


Gujarati_1000G
269.19
0.000
80458


Irula.DG
310.61
0.000
275351


Kazakh.DG
477.04
0.000
243031


Buryat.SG
806.49
0.000
373197


Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG
807.67
0.000
222557


Yakut.DG
944.80
0.000
275842


Burmese.DG
962.59
0.000
272387


Somali.DG
1,006.77
0.000
355138


Mongola.DG
1,107.77
0.000
275062


Dai.DG
1,243.92
0.000
200559


Chinese_Han_1000G
1,653.02
0.000
101885


Bougainville.DG
1,869.35
0.000
283417


Esan.DG
2,680.72
0.000
251172

</tbody>
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Are these all the populations available in the calc? I see a lot of populations that are excluded here.

[Eline]

Ok here we go I have also included other populations for reference. Populations shaded red are close enough to Kurds to almost be considered a single group. Think of p-values as something like probabilities that Kurds and that group can be sister clades. Scientific papers consider anything above p-value 0.05 as significant.Kurds are really very close to the Caucasus people. Kurds cluster between the NorthWest Iranian population and the Caucasus people. Armenians even further down than I thought.

Early proto-Indo-European admixture is still very strong in Kurds!

[Eline]

The most CHG rich groups are Kartvelians and Armenians are closer to them than Kurds are. So how exactly can that be?Kartvelians? Kartvelians don't exist.

If you mean Georgians, than some Georgians cluster closer to the Kurds than to Armenians.

People who live in Turkey are already full of ancient Anatolian admixture. This is why they cluster close to Armenians. Anatolian admixtures is a determining factor here.


Armenians are not really 'CHG' people, since Armenians are much more the 'Anatolian' people. Kurds are also not 100% CHG people, but there is more CHG in Kurds than in Armenians.

[FinalFlash]

Kartvelians? Kartvelians don't exist.

If you mean Georgians, than some Georgians cluster closer to the Kurds than to Armenians.

People who live in Turkey are already full of ancient Anatolian admixture. This is why they cluster close to Armenians. Anatolian admixtures is a determining factor here.


Armenians are not really 'CHG' people, since Armenians are much more the 'Anatolian' people. Kurds are also not 100% CHG people, but there is more CHG in Kurds than in Armenians.

Anatolian admixture is also prevalent in the Caucasus as well, especially among Georgians. Either way, the purest CHG group being Kartvelians(Laz, Kakhetians, Imeretians etc they do exist lol) are closer to Armenians than they are to Kurds. The only Caucasus groups Kurds have some affinity to are Ossetians and Dagestan Azeris because of shared Iran_N ancestry, not actual CHG my friend.

Neither Armenians nor Kurds are pure "CHG" people mainly because pure CHG people do not exist but the difference is that Armenians show more affinity to CHG-heavy people than Kurds do. This is the entire point here. I'm not debating whether Kurds are closer to certain Caucasus ethnic groups. I'm simply stating that Armenians have a bit more affinity to ethnic groups who score lots of CHG than Kurds do.

[Eline]

Anatolian admixture is also prevalent in the Caucasus as well, especially among Georgians. Either way, the purest CHG group being Kartvelians(Laz, Kakhetians, Imeretians etc they do exist lol) are closer to Armenians than they are to Kurds. The only Caucasus groups Kurds have some affinity to are Ossetians and Dagestan Azeris because of shared Iran_N ancestry, not actual CHG my friend.

Neither Armenians nor Kurds are pure "CHG" people mainly because pure CHG people do not exist but the difference is that Armenians show more affinity to CHG-heavy people than Kurds do. This is the entire point here. I'm not debating whether Kurds are closer to certain Caucasus ethnic groups. I'm simply stating that Armenians have a bit more affinity to ethnic groups who score lots of CHG than Kurds do.Once again, you are talking about the Southern Caucasian groups. Trans Caucasian groups have already a lot Anatolia admixture in them.

Northern Caucasian groups such as Adyghe people (Maykop) cluster closer to the Kurds than to Armenians. Adyghe language is Northwest Caucasian and not Northwest Iranic.


In general what I have seen, Kurds are very close to the Northern Caucasian groups such as Adyghe people. Maykop - Leyla-Tepe/Northern Mesopotamia connection?

[Zoro]

Are these all the populations available in the calc? I see a lot of populations that are excluded here.

The ones you see here for the most part (there are some exceptions) are the ones publically available with 1,240,000 SNPs genotyped to maximize overlap. The 1240K dataset doesn't include as many populations as the 600K SNP datasets. Also keep in mind that each sample is run separately and takes about 5 minutes each.

[Zoro]

A word about the qpWave methodology. There are 2 sources; Kurd, test. Kurd and test are compared to the following outgroups using f4s. I both Kurd and test have the same relationship to the ALL the outgroups then that must mean Kurd and test are sister clades and the p-value will be close to 1.

Here are the outgroups used:

Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Onge_1000G
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Israel_Natufian
Iberia_ElMiron
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG

[FinalFlash]

Once again, you are talking about the Southern Caucasian groups. Trans Caucasian groups have already a lot Anatolia admixture in them.

Northern Caucasian groups such as Adyghe people (Maykop) cluster closer to the Kurds than to Armenians. Adyghe language is Northwest Caucasian and not Northwest Iranic.


In general what I have seen, Kurds are very close to the Northern Caucasian groups such as Adyghe people. Maykop - Leyla-Tepe/Northern Mesopotamia connection?

The most CHG-rich group is in the South Caucasus(Kartvelians!). North Caucasians are diluted with various other components like Iran_N, Steppe, and some other minor stuff like East Asian and South Asian admixture. You can't use North Caucasians as a template for CHG affinity the way you can use Georgians! That's my point here dude.

[Halgurd]

@Zoro

How comes you make the distinction between Kurmanjis and Soranis? These are linguistic terms and in the case of Soran it's also a geographic term centred around Dyana (a town of Kurmanji/Badini and Sorani speaking Kurds).

[Trouble]

Baloch and brahui closer to Kurds than Armenians and Assyrians? How ??

[Eline]

The most CHG-rich group is in the South Caucasus(Kartvelians!). North Caucasians are diluted with various other components like Iran_N, Steppe, and some other minor stuff like East Asian and South Asian admixture. You can't use North Caucasians as a template for CHG affinity the way you can use Georgians! That's my point here dude.I have already shown you PCA graphs made by Reich and co that Kurds cluster closer to the (northern) Caucasus groups than Armenians do. Kurds cluster closer to the Caucasus CHG cluster, Armenians are shifted more toward the southwest. Why and how is not relevant here. This is the reality and this is how it is.

You can have the last word if you want, I'm out.

[FinalFlash]

I have already shown you PCA graphs made by Reich and co that Kurds cluster closer to the (northern) Caucasus groups than Armenians do. Kurds cluster closer to the Caucasus CHG cluster, Armenians are shifted more toward the southwest. Why and how is not relevant here. This is the reality and this is how it is.

You can have the last word if you want, I'm out.

Irrelevant. Northern Caucasus groups are not the purest CHG population. Many are heavily Iran_N and significantly steppe influenced whereas Georgians are not hence why Georgians should be the default CHG group. If Kurds were in fact more CHG influenced than Armenians then Kurds would be closer to Georgians, which they obviously are not. Everything else is just minor irrelevant details.

[Eline]

Baloch and brahui closer to Kurds than Armenians and Assyrians? How ??The language of Baloch people is NorthWest Iranic and it was related to the ancient Gutians/Medes. There was a Gutian (Aryan) migration from Kurdistan into Baluchistan in the past

Kurds and Armenians are much less mixed with each other than people think. Assyrians as Semitic speakers have a lot Semitic admixture in them.

[Halgurd]

The language of Baloch people is NorthWest Iranic and it was related to the ancient Gutians/Medes. There was a Gutian (Aryan) migration from Kurdistan into Baluchistan in the past

Kurds and Armenians are much less mixed with each other than people think. Assyrians as Semitic speakers have a lot Semitic admixture in them.

So you think Baloch are closer to Kurds than some Durze families which have an established Kurdish paternal lineage?

[Zoro]

The language of Baloch people is NorthWest Iranic and it was related to the ancient Gutians/Medes. There was a Gutian (Aryan) migration from Kurdistan into Baluchistan in the past

Kurds and Armenians are much less mixed with each other than people think. Assyrians as Semitic speakers have a lot Semitic admixture in them.

Yes, Kurdish is closest to Balochi from the Iranian languages and they shared much of their ancient ancestors. The biggest difference is Kurds received additional ENF via Iran-Chl that pushed them further.

Pakistani Baloch are furthest due to additional ASI

[Trouble]

The language of Baloch people is NorthWest Iranic and it was related to the ancient Gutians/Medes. There was a Gutian (Aryan) migration from Kurdistan into Baluchistan in the past

Kurds and Armenians are much less mixed with each other than people think. Assyrians as Semitic speakers have a lot Semitic admixture in them.

There might be some shared ancestry with Baloch and Kurds via a NW Iranian mediator but overall they are rather distinct.

Assyrians/Armenians have closer ANF/Iran_N/CHG ratios to Kurds which is why they should be closer to them.

[Eline]

So you think Baloch are closer to Kurds than some Durze families which have an established Kurdish paternal lineage?Yes. Those Druze are Arabs now. Kurds who are assimilated within the Semitic populations are not Kurds (Iranics) anymore.
This is what ‘assimilation’ is. It is destroying an ethnic group. Once there were some Kurds in that part of the world, now they are not, they are destroyed, assimilated and vanished.

On the other side we have some groups in Balochistan who still speak a NorthWest Iranic (Gutian) language. But those Baluchi people have assimilated many native South Asian groups, that's why Balochi people are shifted more toward South Asia (India). But the ancient core of those Baloch people is still from Kurdistan.

The core of Druze is Semitic/Arabic. Semites/Arabs have nothing to do with the Kurds/Gutians.

I think Baloch should also have a lot Y-DNA from Kurdistan, like J2a, G2a, L etc

[Zoro]

@Zoro

How comes you make the distinction between Kurmanjis and Soranis? These are linguistic terms and in the case of Soran it's also a geographic term centred around Dyana (a town of Kurmanji/Badini and Sorani speaking Kurds).

You are absolutely correct. Genetically there's no difference between most Kurmanjis and Soranis. I think it just depends on the samples used. I'm 100% sure there are Kurmanji Kurd samples that would be further from this particular Kurmanji sample (my mom) than many Sorani samples. It just comes down to the particular sample available.

[Zoro]

Irrelevant. Northern Caucasus groups are not the purest CHG population. Many are heavily Iran_N and significantly steppe influenced whereas Georgians are not hence why Georgians should be the default CHG group. If Kurds were in fact more CHG influenced than Armenians then Kurds would be closer to Georgians, which they obviously are not. Everything else is just minor irrelevant details.

In the case between Adygei and Kurds I believe that they share more steppe with each other (more steppe shifted) vs Kurds-Armenians but if you look at the table I posted Adygei are not too much closer than Armenians. I wouldn't call it significantly so.

[FinalFlash]

In the case between Adygei and Kurds I believe that they share more steppe with each other vs Kurds-Armenians.

Possibly considering that Kurds and Armenians probably got their steppe from different sources.

[Zoro]

Possibly considering that Kurds and Armenians probably got their steppe from different sources.

Like I said the difference is not statistically significant. It's pretty close.

[Trouble]

According to G25 Kurds are much closer to Assyrians than to Balochi or even S. Iranians let alone Iranian Baloch.

Sample Details Fit Map Kurdish
1 Assyrian:Average 3.2846 Open Map 100
2 Balochi:Average 11.9038 Open Map 100
3 Iranian_Bandari:Average 8.0661 Open Map 100
4 Makrani:Average 11.0276 Open Map 100

[Eline]

There might be some shared ancestry with Baloch and Kurds via a NW Iranian mediator but overall they are rather distinct.Both groups are distinct because they are already separated from each other more than 2500 years ago!

But Iran_ChL (CHG) and Iran_NEO are admixtures that bring Baluch and Kurds together. Kurds have also some ancestry from Southcentral Asia (BMAC) via Parthians as mediators. So, I think you are underestimating the BMAC admixture in this equation.

[Trouble]

"sample": "Assyrian:Average",
"fit": 3.772,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 51.67,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 35.83,
"GEO_CHG": 10.83,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 1.67,
"Paniya": 0,

"sample": "Balochi:Average",
"fit": 2.6518,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 55.83,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 18.33,
"Paniya": 15,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 10.83,
"GEO_CHG": 0,

"sample": "Makrani:Average",
"fit": 2.5356,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 58.33,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 20.83,
"Paniya": 12.5,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 8.33,
"GEO_CHG": 0,

"sample": "Kurdish:Average",
"fit": 3.0513,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 43.33,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 38.33,
"GEO_CHG": 12.5,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 5.83,
"Paniya": 0,

[Zoro]

According to G25 Kurds are much closer to Assyrians than to Balochi or even S. Iranians let alone Iranian Baloch.

Sample Details Fit Map Kurdish
1 Assyrian:Average 3.2846 Open Map 100
2 Balochi:Average 11.9038 Open Map 100
3 Iranian_Bandari:Average 8.0661 Open Map 100
4 Makrani:Average 11.0276 Open Map 100

Undoubtedly there will be a difference between G25 and formal stats. Scientists use formal stats and not G25. There are so many issues with G25 which I have written about and I don't feel like writing about them anymore

[Zoro]

Ok here we go I have also included other populations for reference. Populations shaded red are close enough to Kurds to almost be considered a single group. Think of p-values as something like probabilities that Kurds and that group can be sister clades. Scientific papers consider anything above p-value 0.05 as significant.

So basically the top couple populations can almost be modelled as 100% Kurds



<colgroup width="166"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="140"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpWave – Test, Kurd-Kurmanji-Iraq Cladiness Check – Rank 0


SAMPLE
CHI SQ
P-value
SNPs USED


.Kurds_Feyli_IQ
4.73
0.981
90184


.Kurd_Kurmanji
6.61
0.921
303019


Iranian.DG
6.73
0.916
279965


.Kurd_Yazidi
8.03
0.842
247231


.Iranian_NW
10.09
0.687
182540


.Kurd_Sorani
10.25
0.673
248590


Adygei.DG
17.83
0.164
281434


Lezgin.DG
18.84
0.128
282336


.Baloch_IR
19.65
0.104
188079


Chechen.DG
21.51
0.063
379199


Brahui.DG
21.69
0.060
279141


Armenian.DG
22.25
0.052
282186


Greek.DG
27.02
0.012
282225


Jew_Iraqi.DG
28.13
0.009
281309


Georgian.DG
28.24
0.008
281674


Cretan.DG
28.51
0.008
281398


.Assyrians
28.67
0.007
186187


Russia_NOssetian.DG
30.88
0.004
280617


Bulgarian
33.62
0.001
280566


Druze.DG
35.79
0.001
282786


Balochi.DG
41.60
0.000
280097


.Pashtun_Afg
42.45
0.000
182127


Polish.DG
53.19
0.000
376550


Basque.DG
66.30
0.000
280394


Sardinian.DG
68.97
0.000
232474


Kalash.DG
69.77
0.000
283488


Sindhi.DG
72.71
0.000
278658


BedouinB.DG
91.63
0.000
284854


Estonian.DG
92.70
0.000
278977


Finnish_1000G
132.82
0.000
81992


Bashkir.DG
151.11
0.000
243901


Saami.DG
166.78
0.000
278445


Turkmen.DG
223.08
0.000
385491


Gujarati_1000G
269.19
0.000
80458


Irula.DG
310.61
0.000
275351


Kazakh.DG
477.04
0.000
243031


Buryat.SG
806.49
0.000
373197


Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG
807.67
0.000
222557


Yakut.DG
944.80
0.000
275842


Burmese.DG
962.59
0.000
272387


Somali.DG
1,006.77
0.000
355138


Mongola.DG
1,107.77
0.000
275062


Dai.DG
1,243.92
0.000
200559


Chinese_Han_1000G
1,653.02
0.000
101885


Bougainville.DG
1,869.35
0.000
283417


Esan.DG
2,680.72
0.000
251172

</tbody>
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Most people I'm sure are focused on the top of the table but the bottom deserves some attention too. Notice the E. Asian population closest to Kurds and compare it with Somalis and Esan.

[Trouble]

Undoubtedly there will be a difference between G25 and formal stats. Scientists use formal stats and not G25. There are so many issues with G25 which I have written about and I don't feel like writing about them anymore

I understand but the thing is that distances between modern populations are consistent with the differences between the ancient populations these groups owe their ancestry to.

Look at the modeling on the previous page. CHG/EHG/ANF/Iran_N ratios for Kurds are most similar to Assyrians hence they are closest to them. Meanwhile they are rather different from south Iranians+Makrani on top of the latter two having more south eurasian. It just makes sense.

Unless some recent admixture is weighted more heavily in formal stats(for example Baloch receiving ancestry from a NW Iranian population recently) I don't know how it can work around this.

[Zoro]

I understand but the thing is that distances between modern populations are consistent with the differences between the ancient populations these groups owe their ancestry to.

Look at the modeling on the previous page. CHG/EHG/ANF/Iran_N ratios for Kurds are most similar to Assyrians hence they are closest to them. Meanwhile they are rather different from south Iranians+Makrani on top of the latter two having more south eurasian. It just makes sense.

Unless some recent admixture is weighted more heavily in formal stats(for example Baloch receiving ancestry from a NW Iranian population recently) I don't know how it can work around this.


That's one of the reasons namely formal stats account for the whole population history and branching points and not just recent admixture. Notice the outgroups chosen are all pretty ancient. There is a reason for that

[FinalFlash]

That's one of the reasons namely formal stats account for the whole population history and branching points and not just recent admixture. Notice the outgroups chosen are all pretty ancient. There is a reason for that

Never understood why only recent ancestry was taken into account on most of those calculators. Doesn't seem to me like it paints the full picture.

[Eline]

Most people I'm sure are focused on the top of the table but the bottom deserves some attention too. Notice the E. Asian population closest to Kurds and compare it with Somalis and Esan.What is the difference between .Baloch_IR and Balochi.DG?

Because Balochi.DG comes right after Druze.DG and therefore much more further away from Kurds than .Baloch_IR.

.Baloch_IR is from Iran right? And therefore maybe less mixed with South Asian groups from India.

[Zoro]

What is the difference between .Baloch_IR and Balochi.DG?

Because Balochi.DG comes right after Druze.DG and therefore much more further away from Kurds than .Baloch_IR.

.Baloch_IR is from Iran right? And therefore maybe less mixed with South Asian groups from India.

Yes Baloch-IR are two Iranian Baloch samples and they would be more similar to the original baloch that split from kurd ancestors. Baloch.DG are to Pakistani Baloch samples and therefore more ASI admixed

[Eline]

Yes Baloch-IR are two Iranian Baloch samples and they would be more similar to the original baloch that split from kurd ancestors. Baloch.DG are to Pakistani Baloch samples and therefore more ASI admixed
So, Baluch are heterogeneous groups and only some Baluchi from SouthEast Iran cluster closer to Kurds, while Balochi from Pakistan are different from Baluch in Iran.

There are 7 million Baloch people in Pakistan and only 2 million in Iran. That means than most Balochi are not so similar to Kurds after all.

Also, how do you know that those Balochi from Iran don't have some recent Persian ancestry?

[Eline]

I understand but the thing is that distances between modern populations are consistent with the differences between the ancient populations these groups owe their ancestry to.You are right!

Only some Balochi groups from Iran are close to Kurds. Balochi in Pakistan (majority of Balochi) are much further away from the Kurds. Kurds are even closer to Druze than to Balochi people from Pakistan.

[Zoro]

So, Baluch are heterogeneous groups and only some Baluchi from SouthEast Iran cluster closer to Kurds, while Balochi from Pakistan are different from Baluch in Iran.

There are 7 million Baloch people in Pakistan and only 2 million in Iran. That means than most Balochi are not so similar to Kurds after all.

Also, how do you know that those Balochi from Iran don't have some recent Persian ancestry?

Yes it would be a fair statement that as Baloch migrated east they picked up more ASI and became more different to Kurds. It would be logical to assume that when Baloch originally migrated to SE Iran they were more similar to current Kurds and have picked up a litte more IVC admixture over time as they interacted with whoever the locals were. Keep in mind eastern Iran has had ASI for a long time. Remember the Shahr-e-Sokhteh Bronze Age samples from Sistan

The most recent migration of Kurds to Khash Balochistan was about 500 years ago.

[Synapsid]

Most people I'm sure are focused on the top of the table but the bottom deserves some attention too. Notice the E. Asian population closest to Kurds and compare it with Somalis and Esan.

I understand Esan, but don't Somalis have Levent_N ancestry that make up half their ancestry and thus have stronger affinity with Kurds (since Levent_N is ANF+Natufian both populations were PGNE/Dzudzuana related).

[Zoro]

I understand Esan, but don't Somalis have Levent_N ancestry that make up half their ancestry and thus have stronger affinity with Kurds (since Levent_N is ANF+Natufian both populations were PGNE/Dzudzuana related).

yes I just wanted to point out where Somalis who I believe are 50% SSA fall with regards to E. Asians

[Synapsid]

yes I just wanted to point out where Somalis who I believe are 50% SSA fall with regards to E. Asians

SSA is really an outdated term. You should check out the shum laka paper in 2019/20. The non-west eurasian in Horners is non-Yoruba based.

[Zoro]

SSA is really an outdated term. You should check out the shum laka paper in 2019/20. The non-west eurasian in Horners is non-Yoruba based.

I understand but I wasn't using the term in the sense of Yoruba based but rather in the broader sense of non-Eurasian admixture

[lameduck]

So, Baluch are heterogeneous groups and only some Baluchi from SouthEast Iran cluster closer to Kurds, while Balochi from Pakistan are different from Baluch in Iran.

There are 7 million Baloch people in Pakistan and only 2 million in Iran. That means than most Balochi are not so similar to Kurds after all.

Also, how do you know that those Balochi from Iran don't have some recent Persian ancestry?

baloch_DG could be seraiki baloch from DG khan in south Punjab, probably not representative of balochs from balochistan proper.

[Trouble]

You are right!

Only some Balochi groups from Iran are close to Kurds. Balochi in Pakistan (majority of Balochi) are much further away from the Kurds. Kurds are even closer to Druze than to Balochi people from Pakistan.

I don’t think any baloch groups in Iran are closer to Kurds than south Iranians are unless my understanding is sorely mistaken.

I see it as a gradient where Persians>south Iranians>makrani>baloch

In terms of decreasing ANF and increasing south Asian ancestry as you go right

[Zoro]

baloch_DG could be seraiki baloch from DG khan in south Punjab, probably not representative of balochs from balochistan proper.

No that's not the case. Notice that many samples have DG suffix. It means that they were shotgun sequenced

[Eline]

I don’t think any baloch groups in Iran are closer to Kurds than south Iranians are unless my understanding is sorely mistaken.

I see it as a gradient where Persians>south Iranians>makrani>baloch

In terms of decreasing ANF and increasing south Asian ancestry as you go rightYes, Iranian Baluchs are closer to the Persians than to the Kurds. I'm sure there is a lot recent Persian 'gene flow' into Baluch population of Iran.
I don't think that Balochis have a 'special' relation with the Kurds, most likely Baluchs of Iran are related to all WestIranic speaking people in general.

From a peer reviewed academic paper!


https://i.postimg.cc/BnQnPHJX/baloch.jpg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/

[Zoro]

I don’t think any baloch groups in Iran are closer to Kurds than south Iranians are unless my understanding is sorely mistaken.

I see it as a gradient where Persians>south Iranians>makrani>baloch

In terms of decreasing ANF and increasing south Asian ancestry as you go right

You are correct SW Iranians and even Kermanis (SE Iran) are sometimes indistiguishable from Kurds. In the case of SW Iran it's because of Kurdish ancestral homelands in the S. Zagros and in the case of Kerman it's due to Kurdish migration waves some during Shah Abbas's time (500 years ago) and some during Karim Khan Zand's time.

In fact, the Iranians.DG group you see in the top of the table are most likely SW Iranians

[Eline]

From a peer reviewed academic paper!


https://i.postimg.cc/BnQnPHJX/baloch.jpg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/As you can see, Iranian Baluchis are very diverse people, since they have own long oval cluster. But those who are close to the Western Iranian people are actually very, very close to them!

Although Baluchis are not part of the proto-Western Iranian/Mesopotamian Iran_ChL 'CIC' admixture.

[Zoro]

Yes, Iranian Baluchs are closer to the Persians than to the Kurds. I'm sure there is a lot recent Persian 'gene flow' into Baluch population of Iran.
I don't think that Balochis have a 'special' relation with the Kurds, most likely Baluchs of Iran are related to all WestIranic speaking people in general.

From a peer reviewed academic paper!


https://i.postimg.cc/BnQnPHJX/baloch.jpg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759149/


I think what is confusing for most people is that they don't understand that Baloch are not one uniform group that migrated from western Iran at the same time.

First you have the groups that migrated from western Iran 1500-2000 years ago.

Second, you have actual Kurdish tribes that migrated to SE Iran within the last 500- 1000 years some of which can trace their roots. There are a few good books out there on them. Since they were a minority they did attempt to strengthen their positions by intermarriage with Baloch and most are now know as Baloch.

The same scenario with Brahui in Pakistan. Doesn't it strike you as odd that Brahui.DG is all the way up in the table. I mean no other Pakistani group including Pashtuns are that high in the table. Now some of these Brahui tribes fall under the Brahui Kurd tribe just like some of the Baloch fall under the Kurd Baloch tribe.

Many Baloch and Brahui have last name Kurd.

Even some articles on Baloch tribes reference Kurdish tribes https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Yarahmadzai_tribe


The Yarahmadzai (Shahnavazi) is a Baloch tribe from the Iranian Balochistan. The main population of the tribe is settled in an area called Sarhad in the city of Khash. The population of the Yarahmadzais are about 30,000 and they are divided into three big factions (Sohrabzai, Hossenzai and Rahmetzai).[1]


History

The origin of the tribe is from the hills of Sibi (located in East Balochistan) the same place where Mir Chakar Khan Rind (The great Baloch king) comes from they migrated to the Sarhad plateau somewhere during the beginning of the 18th century and since then they have expanded, increased and becoming one of the most prominent and powerful tribes of Sarhad. Before the arrival of the Yarahmadzais the area (Taftan/khash) was organized and controlled by the Kurds. The Kurds were originally sent to the Sarhad of Baluchistan by Shah Abbas the great as a part of his policy of weakening dangerous baloch tribes by removing them from their local territories. As the Yarahmadzai tribe established themselves in Sarhad the tribe grew larger, and become more powerful and more ambitious they were a big threat to the hokomats (representatives of the rulers) established in Iranian/Baluchistan as well in south (Bampur) as north (Taftan/Khash). The Yarahmadzai unlike the other tribes (particularly in southern Baluchistan) never recognized the hakoms (governed as agents of the crown they received support and encouragement from the crown) of the hokomats as leaders to whom they would serve. Instead they established their own political leader, the Sardar who was a representative for the tribe, several disputes occurred between the Yarahmadzais and the Kurds which resulted in one time that the Kurds where driven out from Sarhad and they lost the control of the area to the Yarahmadzais.[2]

[Zoro]

<colgroup width="166"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="140"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpWave – Test, Kurd-Kurmanji-Iraq Cladiness Check – Rank 0


SAMPLE
CHI SQ
P-value
SNPs USED


.Kurds_Feyli_IQ
4.73
0.981
90184


.Kurd_Kurmanji
6.61
0.921
303019


Iranian.DG
6.73
0.916
279965


.Kurd_Yazidi
8.03
0.842
247231


.Iranian_NW
10.09
0.687
182540


.Kurd_Sorani
10.25
0.673
248590


Adygei.DG
17.83
0.164
281434


Lezgin.DG
18.84
0.128
282336


.Baloch_IR
19.65
0.104
188079


Chechen.DG
21.51
0.063
379199


Brahui.DG
21.69
0.060
279141


Armenian.DG
22.25
0.052
282186


Greek.DG
27.02
0.012
282225


Jew_Iraqi.DG
28.13
0.009
281309


Georgian.DG
28.24
0.008
281674


Cretan.DG
28.51
0.008
281398


.Assyrians
28.67
0.007
186187


Russia_NOssetian.DG
30.88
0.004
280617


Bulgarian
33.62
0.001
280566


Druze.DG
35.79
0.001
282786


Balochi.DG
41.60
0.000
280097


.Pashtun_Afg
42.45
0.000
182127


Polish.DG
53.19
0.000
376550


Basque.DG
66.30
0.000
280394


Sardinian.DG
68.97
0.000
232474


Kalash.DG
69.77
0.000
283488


Sindhi.DG
72.71
0.000
278658


BedouinB.DG
91.63
0.000
284854


Estonian.DG
92.70
0.000
278977


Finnish_1000G
132.82
0.000
81992


Bashkir.DG
151.11
0.000
243901


Saami.DG
166.78
0.000
278445


Turkmen.DG
223.08
0.000
385491


Gujarati_1000G
269.19
0.000
80458


Irula.DG
310.61
0.000
275351


Kazakh.DG
477.04
0.000
243031


Buryat.SG
806.49
0.000
373197


Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG
807.67
0.000
222557


Yakut.DG
944.80
0.000
275842


Burmese.DG
962.59
0.000
272387


Somali.DG
1,006.77
0.000
355138


Mongola.DG
1,107.77
0.000
275062


Dai.DG
1,243.92
0.000
200559


Chinese_Han_1000G
1,653.02
0.000
101885


Bougainville.DG
1,869.35
0.000
283417


Esan.DG
2,680.72
0.000
251172

</tbody>
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[Zoro]

Balochi and Kurdish on the Parthian language branch

https://i.imgur.com/vDuXrQM.png

[Trouble]

If there's a very western shifted subset of Baloch then I can see them being closer than some of the populations on the list, but you have Brahui being closer than Armenians as well Assyrians(who are actually supposed to be the closest to Kurds).

Thats where im lost

[Eline]

I think what is confusing for most people is that they don't understand that Baloch are not one uniform group that migrated from western Iran at the same time.

First you have the groups that migrated from western Iran 1500-2000 years ago.

Second, you have actual Kurdish tribes that migrated to SE Iran within the last 500- 1000 years some of which can trace their roots. There are a few good books out there on them. Since they were a minority they did attempt to strengthen their positions by intermarriage with Baloch and most are now know as Baloch.

The same scenario with Brahui in Pakistan. Doesn't it strike you as odd that Brahui.DG is all the way up in the table. I mean no other Pakistani group including Pashtuns are that high in the table. Now some of these Brahui tribes fall under the Brahui Kurd tribe just like some of the Baloch fall under the Kurd Baloch tribe.

Many Baloch and Brahui have last name Kurd.

Even some articles on Baloch tribes reference Kurdish tribesYes, I found out that Baluchis are very diverse people, just look at their own long oval cluster. But from the academic paper on Iran I learned that even the most Western shifted Baluchis inside Iran are still closer to the Persians than to the Kurds.

I don't know about the individuals or individual clans/families or something like than though.

[Eline]

If there's a very western shifted subset of Baloch then I can see them being closer than some of the populations on the list, but you have Brahui being closer than Armenians as well Assyrians(who are actually supposed to be the closest to Kurds).

Thats where im lostWhere do you get the idea that Assyrians should be the closest to Kurds?

Assyrians are much closer to the Armenians than to the Kurds. Assyrians are to much more shifted toward the Levant. Kurds and Assyrians are not related.


1st level of kinship:

Other West Iranian people: such as Gilakis, Mazanderanis and of course Persians


2nd level of kinship:

Caucasus people: Adyghe, Ossetians, Georgians


3rd level of kinship:

Armenians and the Eastern Turks who are actually assimilated Armenians and Georgians.

[Mingle]

Undoubtedly there will be a difference between G25 and formal stats. Scientists use formal stats and not G25. There are so many issues with G25 which I have written about and I don't feel like writing about them anymore

How come there aren't any academic papers that show the Baloch/Brahuis that close to Kurds relative to Armenians/Assyrians? Besides you, I've yet to see Kurds shown to be closer to the former than to the latter. Since you claim academics don't use G25 but use your method, then we should be able to see them coming to the same conclusions as you.

Even though ancient ancestry is important, you can't just ignore recent ancestry and all the genetic drift that's happened. If we ignore genetic drift, then maybe your values could make sense.

[Eline]

How come there aren't any academic papers that show the Baloch/Brahuis that close to Kurds relative to Armenians/Assyrians? Besides you, I've yet to see Kurds shown to be closer to the former than to the latter. Since you claim academics don't use G25 but use your method, then we should be able to see them coming to the same conclusions as you.

Even though ancient ancestry is important, you can't just ignore recent ancestry and all the genetic drift that's happened. If we ignore genetic drift, then maybe your values could make sense.Yes, very true.

But can you explain me why Persians are closer to the Western shifted Baluchis in Iran than to let say Pashtuns in Afghanistan?

[Trouble]

Where do you get the idea that Assyrians should be the closest to Kurds?

Assyrians are much closer to the Armenians than to the Kurds. Assyrians are to much more shifted toward the Levant. Kurds and Assyrians are not related.


1st level of kinship:

Other West Iranian people such as Gilakis, Mazanderanis and of course Persians


2nd level of kinship:

Caucasus people, Adyghe, Ossetians


3rd level of kinship:

Armenians and the Eastern Turks who are actually assimilated Armenians and Georgians.

Basing it off similar ratios of neolithic components such as Anatolian Farmer, CHG, Iran_N, EHG, and so forth which I indicated in the previous pages.

These ratios are the most important and then after that more modern admixtures come into play. Kurds and Assyrians may not have direct ancestry with one another but through whatever coincidence of history they ended up with similar proportions of those above components. That's more important than a more recent link that accounts for who knows how much shared ancestry between any two groups.

I hope this makes sense...

[Trouble]

Yes, very true.

But can you explain me why Persians are closer to the Western shifted Baluchis in Iran than to let say Pashtuns in Afghanistan?

Pashtuns have higher ASI than Baloch, more steppe, and a bit less ANF(I believe).

[FinalFlash]

Still having a hard time deciding which methods and calculators are the more 'correct' ones. Whatever new tool you guys are using seems completely different to the g25/vahaduo tools as far as admixture and oracles are concerned.

[Eline]

Basing it off similar ratios of neolithic components such as Anatolian Farmer, CHG, Iran_N, EHG, and so forth which I indicated in the previous pages.

These ratios are the most important and then after that more modern admixtures come into play. Kurds and Assyrians may not have direct ancestry with one another but through whatever coincidence of history they ended up with similar proportions of those above components. That's more important than a more recent link that accounts for who knows how much shared ancestry between any two groups.

I hope this makes sense...Of course it makes sense.

But compared to the Assyrians, Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (CHG) and Iran_NEO.

On the other side, Assyrians as Semitic people have much more Levant_NEO/Natufian admixture.


But it is true that Assyrians have also some Anatolian and some Iran_ChL (CHG)/Iran_NEO admixutre, but of course more of Anatolian_NEO that makes them closer to the Armenians.

And Kurds have also a lot ANF + some Natufian, but also much more ANF than Levant. Kurds don't have a lot Assyrian direct Levant_NEO/Natufian admixture. Most of Levant_NEO admixture is from ANF source.


Once again, Assyrians are much more related to the Armenians and they cluster closer to the Armenians than to Kurds.

[Zoro]

How come there aren't any academic papers that show the Baloch/Brahuis that close to Kurds relative to Armenians/Assyrians? Besides you, I've yet to see Kurds shown to be closer to the former than to the latter. Since you claim academics don't use G25 but use your method, then we should be able to see them coming to the same conclusions as you.

Even though ancient ancestry is important, you can't just ignore recent ancestry and all the genetic drift that's happened. If we ignore genetic drift, then maybe your values could make sense.

Well, I have yet to see any paper modelling the relationship between Kurds and Baloch/Brahui using formal stats. Obviously, linguistically Baloch are much much closer to Kurds than to Armenians or Assyrians.

As far as recent admixture you can see hints of it too even with the simplistic ADMIXTURE based calculators. For example in Dodecad K12 have you ever thought about why Kurds score 27 or 28% Gedrosian when the groups right next to them including Armenians and Assyrians only score 15% or so Gedrosian. I mean shouldn't Kurds also score 15% or less Gedrosian just like Armenians and Assyrians if they are not much more related to Baloch or Brahui.

Then you have the linguistics, you remember when you wrote that Kurdish sounds more similar to Pashto, and even there are many Kurdish-Pashto similar words not even found in Farsi. Same applies to Kurdish-Balochi. Nevermind Pashto/Balochi-Assyrian/Armenian. This only makes sense if the connection between Kurds and Pashtuns/Baloch is much stronger than the connection between Assyrians/Armenians and Pashtuns/Baloch


Kurds are documented in Balochistan but not Assyrians or Armenians

[FinalFlash]

Of course it makes sense.

But compared to the Assyrians, Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (CHG) and Iran_NEO.

On the other side, Assyrians as Semitic people have much more Levant_NEO/Natufian admixture.


But it is true that Assyrians have also some Anatolian and some Iran_ChL (CHG)/Iran_NEO admixutre, but of course more of Anatolian_NEO that makes them closer to the Armenians.

And Kurds have also a lot ANF + some Natufian, but also much more ANF than Levant. Kurds don't have a lot Assyrian direct Levant_NEO/Natufian admixture. Most of Levant_NEO admixture is from ANF source.


Once again, Assyrians are much more related to the Armenians and they cluster closer to the Armenians than to Kurds.

Assyrians are much more related to Kurdish and Iranian Jews than to either one. Overall, I think they show as much genetic affinity to Kurds as they do to Armenians. Remember, Assyrians have a lot of Iran_N(more than Armenians).

[Zoro]

Of course it makes sense.

But compared to the Assyrians, Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (CHG) and Iran_NEO.

On the other side, Assyrians as Semitic people have much more Levant_NEO/Natufian admixture.


But it is true that Assyrians have also some Anatolian and some Iran_ChL (CHG)/Iran_NEO admixutre, but of course more of Anatolian_NEO that makes them closer to the Armenians.

And Kurds have also a lot ANF + some Natufian, but also much more ANF than Levant. Kurds don't have a lot Assyrian direct Levant_NEO/Natufian admixture. Most of Levant_NEO admixture is from ANF source.


Once again, Assyrians are much more related to the Armenians and they cluster closer to the Armenians than to Kurds.

Yes and also don't forget the higher steppe admixture and R1a in Kurds vs Armenians and Assyrians

[Eline]

Pashtuns have higher ASI than Baloch, more steppe, and a bit less ANF(I believe).Yes, and that makes the Western shifted Baluchis of Iran less ASI, less Steppe and more ANF.

That makes Baluchis more shifted toward West Asia and therefore closer to the Persians and even the Kurds.

Baluchis are somewhere between West Asia and SouthCentral Asia.


So at the end what Zoro is saying makes some sence, that the most Western shifted Baluchis (who speak a West Iranian language) are closer to the Persians than the Eastern Iranics (such as Pashtuns) are. Although I don't agree with him that they are closest 'relatives' of the Western Iranians.

The closest relatives of the Western Iranians are other NorthWest Asiatic people.

[Eline]

Assyrians are much more related to Kurdish and Iranian Jews than to either one. Overall, I think they show as much genetic affinity to Kurds as they do to Armenians. Remember, Assyrians have a lot of Iran_N(more than Armenians).Kurdish Jews and Iranian Jews are Semitic speaking people.

On Assyrian DODECAD K12b Armenians are higher in hierarchy than the Kurds are. Assyrians and Armenians are more related to each other and a lot of time even overlapping each other's cluster.

[FinalFlash]

Kurdish Jews and Iranian Jews are Semitic speaking people.

On DODECAD K12b Armenians are higher in hierarchy than the Kurds are. Assyrians and Armenians are more related to each other and a lot of time even overlapping each other’s cluster

On Vahaduo, Assyrians have more Iran_N admixture hence why Kurds are closer to Assyrians than you may think. Remember Kurds are more Levantine/Anatolian shifted compared to other Iranic speakers hence greater affinity to Assyrians vs other Iranics.

[Mingle]

Well, I have yet to see any paper modelling the relationship between Kurds and Baloch/Brahui using formal stats. Obviously, linguistically Baloch are much much closer to Kurds than to Armenians or Assyrians.

So basically we should trust you on this but ignore all academics, G25, GEDmatch, etc.


As far as recent admixture you can see hints of it too even with the simplistic ADMIXTURE based calculators. For example in Dodecad K12 have you ever thought about why Kurds score 27 or 28% Gedrosian when the groups right next to them including Armenians and Assyrians only score 15% or so Gedrosian. I mean shouldn't Kurds also score 15% or less Gedrosian just like Armenians and Assyrians if they are not much more related to Baloch or Brahui.

Then you have the linguistics, you remember when you wrote that Kurdish sounds more similar to Pashto, and even there are many Kurdish-Pashto similar words not even found in Farsi. Same applies to Kurdish-Balochi. Nevermind Pashto/Balochi-Assyrian/Armenian. This only makes sense if the connection between Kurds and Pashtuns/Baloch is much stronger than the connection between Assyrians/Armenians and Pashtuns/Baloch


Kurds are documented in Balochistan but not Assyrians or Armenians

Geography/history plays a bigger role in ancestry than language.

[Zoro]

Yes, and that makes the Western shifted Baluchis of Iran less ASI, less Steppe and more ANF.

That makes Baluchis more shifted toward West Asia and therefore closer to the Persians and even the Kurds.

Baluchis are somewhere between West Asia and SouthCentral Asia.


So at the end what Zoro is saying makes some sence, that the most Western shifted Baluchis (who speak a West Iranian language) are closer to the Persians than the Eastern Iranics (such as Pashtuns) are. Although I don't agree with him that they are closest 'relatives' of the Western Iranians.

The closest relatives of the Western Iranians are other NorthWest Asiatic people.

Let the table guide you. Let's pretend for now that Kurdish is not the closest language to Balochi and also let's pretend that Baloch/Brahui tribes and Kurd presence in Balochistan is nothing but science fiction


<colgroup width="166"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="140"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpWave – Test, Kurd-Kurmanji-Iraq Cladiness Check – Rank 0


SAMPLE
CHI SQ
P-value
SNPs USED


.Kurds_Feyli_IQ
4.73
0.981
90184


.Kurd_Kurmanji
6.61
0.921
303019


Iranian.DG
6.73
0.916
279965


.Kurd_Yazidi
8.03
0.842
247231


.Iranian_NW
10.09
0.687
182540


.Kurd_Sorani
10.25
0.673
248590


Adygei.DG
17.83
0.164
281434


Lezgin.DG
18.84
0.128
282336


.Baloch_IR
19.65
0.104
188079


Chechen.DG
21.51
0.063
379199


Brahui.DG
21.69
0.060
279141


Armenian.DG
22.25
0.052
282186


Greek.DG
27.02
0.012
282225


Jew_Iraqi.DG
28.13
0.009
281309


Georgian.DG
28.24
0.008
281674


Cretan.DG
28.51
0.008
281398


.Assyrians
28.67
0.007
186187


Russia_NOssetian.DG
30.88
0.004
280617


Bulgarian
33.62
0.001
280566


Druze.DG
35.79
0.001
282786


Balochi.DG
41.60
0.000
280097


.Pashtun_Afg
42.45
0.000
182127


Polish.DG
53.19
0.000
376550


Basque.DG
66.30
0.000
280394


Sardinian.DG
68.97
0.000
232474


Kalash.DG
69.77
0.000
283488


Sindhi.DG
72.71
0.000
278658


BedouinB.DG
91.63
0.000
284854


Estonian.DG
92.70
0.000
278977


Finnish_1000G
132.82
0.000
81992


Bashkir.DG
151.11
0.000
243901


Saami.DG
166.78
0.000
278445


Turkmen.DG
223.08
0.000
385491


Gujarati_1000G
269.19
0.000
80458


Irula.DG
310.61
0.000
275351


Kazakh.DG
477.04
0.000
243031


Buryat.SG
806.49
0.000
373197


Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG
807.67
0.000
222557


Yakut.DG
944.80
0.000
275842


Burmese.DG
962.59
0.000
272387


Somali.DG
1,006.77
0.000
355138


Mongola.DG
1,107.77
0.000
275062


Dai.DG
1,243.92
0.000
200559


Chinese_Han_1000G
1,653.02
0.000
101885


Bougainville.DG
1,869.35
0.000
283417


Esan.DG
2,680.72
0.000
251172

</tbody>
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[Zoro]

So basically we should trust you on this but ignore all academics, G25, GEDmatch, etc.



Geography/history plays a bigger role in ancestry than language.

Please show me a scientific paper using formal stats that directly negates what I said and shows Baloch more related to Assyrians and Armenians. Let's also pretend that Dodecad k12 Gedrosian is irrelevant.

[Trouble]

The problem with a lot of these gedmatch components is that they're based on modern populations. So Iran_N can and is mixed between multiple different categories and the fact that one group is scoring higher Gedrosia on a calculator doesn't mean they have a lot more Iran_N necessarily. Kurds do have a some more Iran_N but not that much more than Assyrians.

Armenians by contrast have more CHG and less Iran_N relative to those two groups.

[Zoro]

The problem with a lot of these gedmatch components is that they're based on modern populations. So Iran_N can and is mixed between multiple different categories and the fact that one group is scoring higher Gedrosia on a calculator doesn't mean they have a lot more Iran_N necessarily. Kurds do have a some more Iran_N but not that much more than Assyrians.

Armenians by contrast have more CHG and less Iran_N relative to those two groups.

I agree about the ancient components but show me some numbers based on formal stats (not G25)

[FinalFlash]

The problem with a lot of these gedmatch components is that they're based on modern populations. So Iran_N can and is mixed between multiple different categories and the fact that one group is scoring higher Gedrosia on a calculator doesn't mean they have a lot more Iran_N necessarily. Kurds do have a some more Iran_N but not that much more than Assyrians.

Armenians by contrast have more CHG and less Iran_N relative to those two groups.

I wish Armenians had more samples on G25 that is representative of real people as opposed to those questionable 'academic' samples.

[Eline]

Let the table guide you. Let's pretend for now that Kurdish is not the closest language to Balochi and also let's pretend that Baloch/Brahui tribes and Kurd presence in Balochistan is nothing but science fictionFirst of all, I don't know how legit your source material is. Who are these .Baloch_IR and are they really Baluchis from Iran, where do you get their DNA.

Other Balochi.DG is not really related to the Kurds.

Let say that .Baloch_IR is very close to the Kurds. But it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be even closer to the Persians or other Western Iranians. I am sure than .Baloch_IR is closer to Persians than to Kurds.

Also, I see Northern Caucasus groups such as Adygei.DG and Lezgin.DG rank higher in hierarchy than .Baloch_IR. That makes Kurds closer to other NorthWest Asians than to .Baloch_IR (from Iran).


Baluchis are somehow an intermediate population between the Western Asian Western Iranians and SouthCentral Asian Eastern Iranians.

[Trouble]

I wish Armenians had more samples on G25 that is representative of real people as opposed to those questionable 'academic' samples.

Yeah sampling bias is an everpresent phenomenon. Might turn out that we have it slightly wrong in that Armenians are actually slightly more related to Kurds than assyrians. But I cant envision a scenario where Baloch are.

[FinalFlash]

Yeah sampling bias is an everpresent phenomenon. Might turn out that we have it slightly wrong in that Armenians are actually slightly more related to Kurds than assyrians. But I cant envision a scenario where Baloch are.

Using real samples on EUK15 custom calc I discovered that Armenians are in fact closer to Kurds than Assyrians(at least Eastern Armenians are) and are even closer to Northeastern peoples of Turkey as well as Eastern Turks than to Kurds. Make of that what you will...The sampling bias is mind boggling to me.

Also, I can't see how Kurds would be more related to Baloch than to Assyrians either. That sounds very strange to say the least.

[Mingle]

Please show me a scientific paper using formal stats that directly negates what I said and shows Baloch more related to Assyrians and Armenians. Let's also pretend that Dodecad k12 Gedrosian is irrelevant.

In the paper that Eline linked; they used PMRA, PLINK, AAS, etc. and their results were similar to those on G25. It didn't include Armenians or Assyrians but everything else was the same and they showed Iranian Balochis and Kurds as extremely distant.

Regarding formal stats, we don't even know if its better than everything that academics use and if you're applying it correctly. You seem to be focusing too much on ancient ancestry when recent ancestry is more important due to drift (though both are important of course).

At the moment, we don't have any reason to trust your methods over those used by academics, G25, GEDmatch, etc. when their credentials are far higher and they all consistently get more or less similar results. Kurds being closer to Brahuis than to their Assyrian neighbors just sounds insane, sorry.

[Mingle]

Using real samples on EUK15 custom calc I discovered that Armenians are in fact closer to Kurds than Assyrians(at least Eastern Armenians are) and are even closer to Northeastern peoples of Turkey as well as Eastern Turks than to Kurds. Make of that what you will...The sampling bias is mind boggling to me.

Many of the samples on G25 are just inexcusably bad. Its almost like Davidski did this on purpose to get us to purchase G25 from him and create our own averaged samples.

[FinalFlash]

Many of the samples on G25 are just inexcusably bad. Its almost like Davidski did this on purpose to get us to purchase G25 from him and create our own averaged samples.

Well that SOB sure is pushing me towards purchasing coordinates from him because at this rate idk when this guy will finally add normal quality samples or even enough samples to begin with. It's been at least 2 years since G25 has been out and nothing has changed, at least for samples from our region.

[Eline]

The problem with a lot of these gedmatch components is that they're based on modern populations. So Iran_N can and is mixed between multiple different categories and the fact that one group is scoring higher Gedrosia on a calculator doesn't mean they have a lot more Iran_N necessarily. Kurds do have a some more Iran_N but not that much more than Assyrians.

Armenians by contrast have more CHG and less Iran_N relative to those two groups.We don't need gedmatch or Gedrosia that Kurds have almost twice as much as Armenian/Assyrians. We have PCA from Reich and co group.

Even Iranians who are actually less CHG than Kurds are more shifted toward Caucasus than the Armenians. Just like the Assyrians, Armenians are more shifted SouthWest (Anatolia/Levant)

https://i.postimg.cc/GtKqwck1/Naamloos.png


Also, Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (CHG) than the Armenians or Assyrians do

https://i.postimg.cc/63L8YTXt/wykres-PCA.png

[FinalFlash]

We don't need gedmatch or Gedrosia that Kurds have almost twice as much as Armenian/Assyrians. We have PCA from Reich and co group.

Even Iranians who are actually less CHG than Kurds are more shifted toward Caucasus than the Armenians. Just like the Assyrians, Armenians are more shifted SouthWest (Anatolia/Levant)

https://i.postimg.cc/GtKqwck1/Naamloos.png


Also, Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (CHG) than the Armenians or Assyrians do

https://i.postimg.cc/63L8YTXt/wykres-PCA.png

Kurds have less CHG than even Assyrians do. Even those crappy Armenian samples on G25(of which I'm certain that chart uses) has more proper CHG than Kurds.

[Eline]

Using real samples on EUK15 custom calc I discovered that Armenians are in fact closer to Kurds than Assyrians(at least Eastern Armenians are) and are even closer to Northeastern peoples of Turkey as well as Eastern Turks than to Kurds. Make of that what you will...The sampling bias is mind boggling to me.Even accroding to Lazaridis, Reich and co. there is an OVERLAP between the Armenians and the Jews in Iran/Caucasus who are more shifted toward the Levant.

https://i.postimg.cc/90LCbmdn/nature13673-f2.jpg

[Zoro]

In the paper that Eline linked; they used PMRA, PLINK, AAS, etc. and their results were similar to those on G25. It didn't include Armenians or Assyrians but everything else was the same and they showed Iranian Balochis and Kurds as extremely distant.

Regarding formal stats, we don't even know if its better than everything that academics use and if you're applying it correctly. You seem to be focusing too much on ancient ancestry when recent ancestry is more important due to drift (though both are important of course).

At the moment, we don't have any reason to trust your methods over those used by academics, G25, GEDmatch, etc. when their credentials are far higher and they all consistently get more or less similar results. Kurds being closer to Brahuis than to their Assyrian neighbors just sounds insane, sorry.


Ok I'll dumb it down. Forget everything I said including linguistics and history. Since you like Gedmatch and we know Balochi is a western Iranian language most related to Kurdish with roots in W. Iran

What population in the West Iran area (Azeri, Armenians, Assyrians, Abkhazians, Syrians, Iraqis, Kurds) score the highest Gedrosian (which is based on Baloch/Brahui) in Dodecad k12?

Whichever population it is will have to be the population that shares ancestors with Baloch. End of discussion!

[Trouble]

We don't need gedmatch or Gedrosia that Kurds have almost twice as much as Armenian/Assyrians. We have PCA from Reich and co group.

Even Iranians who are actually less CHG than Kurds are more shifted toward Caucasus than the Armenians. Just like the Assyrians, Armenians are more shifted SouthWest (Anatolia/Levant)

https://i.postimg.cc/GtKqwck1/Naamloos.png


Also, Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (CHG) than the Armenians or Assyrians do

https://i.postimg.cc/63L8YTXt/wykres-PCA.png

Not talking about the Caucasus here. I dont care if some Iranians are closer to them than Armenians are.

Can you show where you get that Kurds have twice the amount of Iran_N or Iran_Chl as Assyrians?

[Eline]

Kurds have less CHG than even Assyrians do. Even those crappy Armenian samples on G25(of which I'm certain that chart uses) has more proper CHG than Kurds.According to Lazaridis, Reich and co. Armenians fall in the smae cluster as Levant shifted Georgian- and Iranian Jews.

Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (mostly CHG) than Armenians. CHG in Kurds is from Iran_ChL. Armenians have much more Anatolian admixture.


CHG itself is from Iran_NEO. So at the end Kruds have much more CHG/Iran_NEO than the Armenians do!

[FinalFlash]

Even accroding to Lazaridis, Reich and co. there is an OVERLAP between the Armenians and the Jews in Iran/Caucasus who are more shifted toward the Levant.

https://i.postimg.cc/90LCbmdn/nature13673-f2.jpg

According to like 5 faulty samples, sure. But in reality Kurds are closer to Armenians than any Caucasus jew.

[FinalFlash]

According to Lazaridis, Reich and co. Armenians fall in the smae cluster as Levant shifted Georgian- and Iranian Jews.

Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (mostly CHG) than Armenians. CHG in Kurds is from Iran_ChL. Armenians have much more Anatolian admixture.


CHG itself is from Iran_NEO. So at the end Kruds have much more CHG/Iran_NEO than the Armenians do!

Again, crappy samples that are not representative of real Armenians. Real Armenians cluster with Eastern Turks and Northeastern natives of Turkey! As a matter of fact, they are closer to Kurds than to Jews and Assyrians. What are you not understanding here? Those charts are all totally wrong for they don't use real samples. I don't understand what you aren't getting here. And for the last time, in no universe do Kurds score more CHG than Armenians. That is just a flat out lie.

[Eline]

Not talking about the Caucasus here. I dont care if some Iranians are closer to them than Armenians are.

Can you show where you get that Kurds have twice the amount of Iran_N or Iran_Chl as Assyrians?The Kurdish closest relatives are other Western Iranians, such as Gilakis and Persians. Of all West Iranian speakers Kurds are the closest to the Caucasus group.

On Dodecad K12b Kurds have around 28% Gedrosia, just like other Western Iranians. It is almost 50% more ‘Gedrosia’ than in Armenians/Assyrians.


If you connect Assyrians to the Kurds, than you have to connect the Assyrians also the Persians, Gilakis, Mazaderanis and other West Iranian populations. It doesn't make any sense. Gilakis or Mazaderanis have nothing to do with the Assyrians. Don't try to link Assyrians to Kurds, you will lose. Because we have also the 'other' Western Iranians very close to the Kurds who have zero (0) connection to the Assyrians. End of story!

[Trouble]

According to Lazaridis, Reich and co. Armenians fall in the smae cluster as Levant shifted Georgian- and Iranian Jews.

Kurds have much more Iran_ChL (mostly CHG) than Armenians. CHG in Kurds is from Iran_ChL. Armenians have much more Anatolian admixture.


CHG itself is from Iran_NEO. So at the end Kruds have much more CHG/Iran_NEO than the Armenians do!

Iran_CHL is Hajji Firuz correct?

I just modeled it as only 15% CHG and about half ANF and the rest Iran_N

"sample": "IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:Average",
"fit": 3.5148,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 48.33,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 37.5,
"GEO_CHG": 14.17,

[Eline]

Again, crappy samples that are not representative of real Armenians. Real Armenians cluster with Eastern Turks and Northeastern natives of Turkey! As a matter of fact, they are closer to Kurds than to Jews and Assyrians. What are you not understanding here? Those charts are all totally wrong for they don't use real samples. I don't understand what you aren't getting here. And for the last time, in no universe do Kurds score more CHG than Armenians. That is just a flat out lie.I don't understand you at all. What the hack are you talking about?!? Like the Hittites and Mycenaeans, Armenians are the natives to Anatolia.

And because Armenians have more of the ancient Anatolian ancestry than the Kurds, while Kurds have more Iran_NEO/Iran_ChL (CHG) ancestry, the Armenians are more shifted toward the Levant and Medeterranean Sea.


Are you trying to say that Armenians are actually LESS shifted toward the Medeterranean Sea/Levant tha Kurds?

[Eline]

Iran_CHL is Hajji Firuz correct?

I just modeled it as only 15% CHG and about half ANF and the rest Iran_N

"sample": "IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:Average",
"fit": 3.5148,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 48.33,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 37.5,
"GEO_CHG": 14.17,Your calculations are wrong

According to Lazaridis, Reich and co. Iran_ChL = 63.1% CHG :thumb001:

Iran_ChL = 63,1% CHG + 20,2% Anatolia_ChL + 16,7% Iran_N.

https://i.postimg.cc/x87shMRV/Iran-ChL.jpg

[Trouble]

The Kurdish closest relatives are other Western Iranians, such as Gilakis and Persians. Of all West Iranian speakers Kurds are the closest to the Caucasus group.

On Dodecad K12b Kurds have around 28% Gedrosia, just like other Western Iranians. It is almost 50% more ‘Gedrosia’ than in Armenians/Assyrians.


If you connect Assyrians to the Kurds, than you have to connect the Assyrians also the Persians, Gilakis, Mazaderanis and other West Iranian populations. It doesn't make any sense. Gilakis or Mazaderanis have nothing to do with the Assyrians. Don't try to link Assyrians to Kurds, you will lose. Because we have also the 'other' Western Iranians very close to the Kurds who have zero (0) connection to the Assyrians. End of story!

On Dodecad K12b Assyrians get 18% Gedrosia, Kurds get 28%. 18 multiplied by two is 36.

You also conveniently dont mention how the lack of "Gedrosia" so-called is made up by a surplus in Caucasus among Assyrians relative to Kurds on that same spreadsheet. So it events out as Caucasus and Gedrosia are connected. I don't take these gedmatch components seriously anyway.

Yes, west Iranian populations are connected to Assyrians as well. Mazanderanis are more eastern shifted but thats neither here nor there. It's almost like neighboring populations are closely related to one another? Dont live in denial

[Mingle]

Ok I'll dumb it down. Forget everything I said including linguistics and history. Since you like Gedmatch and we know Balochi is a western Iranian language most related to Kurdish with roots in W. Iran

What population in the West Iran area (Azeri, Armenians, Assyrians, Abkhazians, Syrians, Iraqis, Kurds) score the highest Gedrosian (which is based on Baloch/Brahui) in Dodecad k12?

Whichever population it is will have to be the population that shares ancestors with Baloch. End of discussion!

I didn't deny any connection between the two. I know Balochis have origins there. But they're not gonna be closer to Kurds than Armenians or Assyrians are. There are more components than Gedrosian/Iran N.

[FinalFlash]

I don;t understand you at all. What the hack are you talking about?!? Like the Hittites and Mycenaeans, Armenians are the natives to Anatolia.

And because Armenians have more of the ancient Anatolian ancestry than the Kurds, while Kurds have more Iran_NEO/Iran_ChL (CHG) ancestry, the Armenians are more shifted toward the Levant and Medeterranean Sea.


Are you trying to say that Armenians are actually LESS shifted toward the Medeterranean Sea/Levant tha Kurds?

No, I am saying that Armenians score more CHG admixture than Kurds. I am also saying that Armenians score higher EEF than Kurds. And no, Armenians are NOT more Levant shifted than the Kurds because whatever Levantine affinities present in Armenians are exactly present in Kurds in similar measure. The reason Armenians shift more west relative to Kurds is because of EEF, not Levantine components! The reason why Kurds shift more eastwards is because of excess Iran_N(not CHG).

Also, Armenians are not Anatolian people. Armenians are native to the Armenian Highlands, not Anatolia or anywhere else.

[Trouble]

Your calculations are wrong

According to Lazaridis, Reich and co. Iran_ChL = 63.1% CHG :thumb001:

Iran_ChL = 63,1% CHG + 20,2% Anatolia_ChL + 16,7% Iran_N.

https://i.postimg.cc/x87shMRV/Iran-ChL.jpg

Ive heard there are two different samples for CHG, and the one on G25 is the one more relevant to north Caucasus pops.

Kurds and Iranians aren't getting a lot of CHG anyway on G25.

[FinalFlash]

Ive heard there are two different samples for CHG, and the one on G25 is the one more relevant to north Caucasus pops.

Kurds and Iranians aren't getting a lot of CHG anyway on G25.

I've heard from the user Token that the lone CHG sample used as a reference is far too old that predates the Neolithic hence why it isn't run accurately for many populations which could explain why Kurds barely score any CHG. This begs the question- what is a good substitute component to use to replace CHG to make these runs?

[Trouble]

I've heard from the user Token that the lone CHG sample used as a reference is far too old that predates the Neolithic hence why it isn't run accurately for many populations which could explain why Kurds barely score any CHG. This begs the question- what is a good substitute component to use to replace CHG to make these runs?

Kura araxes perhaps? Im unsure. CHG always confused me.

[FinalFlash]

Kura araxes perhaps? Im unsure. CHG always confused me.

Kura Araxes I believe isn't entirely CHG and has a bunch of other shit in it. Maybe Maykop_late since apparently this one has no steppe affinities?

[Eline]

On Dodecad K12b Assyrians get 18% Gedrosia, Kurds get 28%. 18 multiplied by two is 36.

You also conveniently dont mention how the lack of "Gedrosia" so-called is made up by a surplus in Caucasus among Assyrians relative to Kurds on that same spreadsheet. So it events out as Caucasus and Gedrosia are connected. I don't take these gedmatch components seriously anyway.

Yes, west Iranian populations are connected to Assyrians as well. Mazanderanis are more eastern shifted but thats neither here nor there. It's almost like neighboring populations are closely related to one another? Dont live in denialI said 50% more and not 100% more, hahaha. I am a girl and my math is better than yours, shame on you.

when you do 18 x 1,5 (50%) you wil get 27. So from the Assyrian perspective Kurds have 50% more Gedrosia.

But in reality it is actally around 36%. (18-28)/28*100 = 35.7%

Kurds have 35.7% MORE Gedrosia than the Assyrians do.

Yes, Assyrian as West Asiatic people are close to West Iranians who are also West Asiatic people, and not necessarily to the Kurds. Also, Kurds and Assyrians live next to each other in the Northern Mesopotamia for thousands of years. Also, here we have some connection.

But what I'm trying to say is that Kurds and Assyrians have different origin with different ancient history.

[Zoro]

I didn't deny any connection between the two. I know Balochis have origins there. But they're not gonna be closer to Kurds than Armenians or Assyrians are. There are more components than Gedrosian/Iran N.

Ok sorry i totally misunderstood what you were trying to say. I thought you meant Assyrians/Armenians and NOT kurds share ancestors with Baloch

I understand what you're saying now. I did address that in the beginning of the thread (more recent admixture vs total population history). As far as recent admixture you're right but qpWave based on those ancient outgroups is addressing total drift

[Zoro]

I wouldn't go by PCA because you only see 2 PCs and not the other 10 PCs. I do have formal stats on IranN CHG. Will dig up later

[Trouble]

Kura Araxes I believe isn't entirely CHG and has a bunch of other shit in it. Maybe Maykop_late since apparently this one has no steppe affinities?

hmm, let me try it.

"sample": "Armenian:Average",
"fit": 1.843,
"RUS_Maykop_Late": 55.83,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 18.33,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 16.67,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 9.17,
"RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 0,

"sample": "Assyrian:Average",
"fit": 1.9407,
"RUS_Maykop_Late": 45,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 23.33,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 17.5,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 14.17,
"RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 0,

"sample": "Kurdish:Average",
"fit": 1.8627,
"RUS_Maykop_Late": 42.5,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 24.17,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 16.67,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 12.5,
"RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 4.17

Seems to work well but Im not sure if the other groups are properly placed in terms of time period with it.

[Eline]

No, I am saying that Armenians score more CHG admixture than Kurds. I am also saying that Armenians score higher EEF than Kurds. And no, Armenians are NOT more Levant shifted than the Kurds because whatever Levantine affinities present in Armenians are exactly present in Kurds in similar measure. The reason Armenians shift more west relative to Kurds is because of EEF, not Levantine components! The reason why Kurds shift more eastwards is because of excess Iran_N(not CHG).

Also, Armenians are not Anatolian people. Armenians are native to the Armenian Highlands, not Anatolia or anywhere else.Armenians have more Levant/Natufian because Armenians have more ANF/EEF. There is some Levant/Natufian in ANF. So, Armenians do have more Levant/Natufian than Kurds because they have more ANF. What is so difficult to understand?

I have seen many charts and graphs and on all those graphs and charts Armenians are closer to the Levant than the Kurds are. Sorry, these are the facts.

CHG itself is derived from Iran_NEO. Kurds have a lot CHG/Iran_ChL in them, but somehow on amateur calculators it is showing as Iran_NEO.

There are many studies that say that Kurds actually don't have a lot Iran_NEO, but it is CHG.

[Eline]

Ive heard there are two different samples for CHG, and the one on G25 is the one more relevant to north Caucasus pops.

Kurds and Iranians aren't getting a lot of CHG anyway on G25.You can hear and believe whatever you want, but I'm just staying loyal to the peer review academic papers.

Iran_ChL makes a majority in Kurds and Iran_ChL is mostly CHG. End of story!

[Trouble]

I said 50% more and not 100% more, hahaha. I am a girl and my math is better than yours, shame on you.

when you do 18 x 1,5 (50%) you wil get 27. So from the Assyrian perspective Kurds have 50% more Gedrosia.

But in reality it is actally around 36%. (18-28)/28*100 = 35.7%

Kurds have 35.7% MORE Gedrosia than the Assyrians do.

Yes, Assyrian as West Asiatic people are close to West Iranians who are also West Asiatic people, and not necessarily to the Kurds. Also, Kurds and Assyrians live next to each other in the Northern Mesopotamia for thousands of years. Also, here we have some connection.

But what I'm trying to say is that Kurds and Assyrians have different origin with different ancient history.

My bad, I read it wrong in my mind as Assyrians having only 50% as much as Kurds did.

Are you really a girl? I somehow doubt it.


I admitted previously that it could well be that their history and origins are totally different but you can have situations where two groups end up plotting close to one another just because the ancient components line up by chance.

[FinalFlash]

hmm, let me try it.

"sample": "Armenian:Average",
"fit": 1.843,
"RUS_Maykop_Late": 55.83,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 18.33,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 16.67,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 9.17,
"RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 0,

"sample": "Assyrian:Average",
"fit": 1.9407,
"RUS_Maykop_Late": 45,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 23.33,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 17.5,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 14.17,
"RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 0,

"sample": "Kurdish:Average",
"fit": 1.8627,
"RUS_Maykop_Late": 42.5,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 24.17,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 16.67,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 12.5,
"RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 4.17

Seems to work well but Im not sure if the other groups are properly placed in terms of time period with it.

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
Distance: 1.1770% / 0.01177036
48.2 GEO_CHG
24.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.0 RUS_Catacomb
8.4 Levant_Natufian
1.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
Distance: 3.4862% / 0.03486215
54.0 GEO_CHG
20.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.4 RUS_Catacomb
8.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
Distance: 1.4203% / 0.01420347
59.4 GEO_CHG
23.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.2 Levant_Natufian
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.0 RUS_Catacomb

Target: RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
Distance: 1.4897% / 0.01489715
63.4 GEO_CHG
20.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
8.0 Levant_Natufian
6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
Distance: 1.8652% / 0.01865180
30.4 GEO_CHG
29.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
Distance: 1.8843% / 0.01884275
38.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
31.0 GEO_CHG
17.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 RUS_Catacomb
3.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
Distance: 1.9992% / 0.01999158
37.0 GEO_CHG
31.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
18.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.6 RUS_Catacomb
4.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
Distance: 1.7664% / 0.01766387
30.6 GEO_CHG
28.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
21.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 RUS_Catacomb
5.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
Distance: 1.3208% / 0.01320752
49.0 GEO_CHG
25.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.8 Levant_Natufian
6.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: RUS_Maykop_Late
Distance: 1.2173% / 0.01217304
43.2 GEO_CHG
27.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
10.4 RUS_Catacomb
10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: RUS_Maykop
Distance: 2.4003% / 0.02400256
36.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
25.4 GEO_CHG
9.4 RUS_Catacomb
2.2 Levant_Natufian


It seems as though Darkveti and North Caucasus is the best fit when looking for an alternative to CHG. Try these out. Also, you should probably use RUS_Catacomb for steppe admix which is likely where these groups got their steppe admix from.

[Trouble]

Target: UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
Distance: 1.1770% / 0.01177036
48.2 GEO_CHG
24.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.0 RUS_Catacomb
8.4 Levant_Natufian
1.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
Distance: 3.4862% / 0.03486215
54.0 GEO_CHG
20.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.4 RUS_Catacomb
8.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
Distance: 1.4203% / 0.01420347
59.4 GEO_CHG
23.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.2 Levant_Natufian
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.0 RUS_Catacomb

Target: RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
Distance: 1.4897% / 0.01489715
63.4 GEO_CHG
20.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
8.0 Levant_Natufian
6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
Distance: 1.8652% / 0.01865180
30.4 GEO_CHG
29.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
Distance: 1.8843% / 0.01884275
38.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
31.0 GEO_CHG
17.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 RUS_Catacomb
3.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
Distance: 1.9992% / 0.01999158
37.0 GEO_CHG
31.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
18.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.6 RUS_Catacomb
4.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
Distance: 1.7664% / 0.01766387
30.6 GEO_CHG
28.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
21.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 RUS_Catacomb
5.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
Distance: 1.3208% / 0.01320752
49.0 GEO_CHG
25.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.8 Levant_Natufian
6.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: RUS_Maykop_Late
Distance: 1.2173% / 0.01217304
43.2 GEO_CHG
27.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
10.4 RUS_Catacomb
10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: RUS_Maykop
Distance: 2.4003% / 0.02400256
36.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
25.4 GEO_CHG
9.4 RUS_Catacomb
2.2 Levant_Natufian


It seems as though Darkveti and North Caucasus is the best fit when looking for an alternative to CHG. Try these out. Also, you should probably use RUS_Catacomb for steppe admix which is likely where these groups got their steppe admix from.

98928

Im no expert but it seems to be a good fit. Also helps that its in the same geographic realm of CHG.

[Eline]

I admitted previously that it could well be that their history and origins are totally different but you can have situations where two groups end up plotting close to one another just because the ancient components line up by chance.Assyrians plot pretty close to Kurds, but Assyrians plot CLOSER to other populations such as Armenians.

Kurds and West Iranian people in general have a very different origin from the Assyrians, since Kurds evolved mostly from proto-West Iranian or Iranian_ChL component (Gutians) that they share with other West Iranian groups such as Persians. It is exactly that 'archaic' overlapping 'CIC' or Iran_ChL admixture that connects all Western Iranic people together. And that ancient pan-Western Iranian 'CIC' or Iranian_ChL component was very heavy on CHG.

[FinalFlash]

98928

Im no expert but it seems to be a good fit. Also helps that its in the same geographic realm of CHG.

You should probably use Levant_N as opposed to Jordan_EBA just so the time periods would match. Also, Jordan_EBA absorbs a lot of the Barcin_N too.

[Trouble]

You should probably use Levant_N as opposed to Jordan_EBA just so the time periods would match. Also, Jordan_EBA absorbs a lot of the Barcin_N too.

Levant_N on the webrunner was removed a while ago. Not sure what happened to it but from what I understand Jordan_EBA is the next closest thing.

[FinalFlash]

98928

Im no expert but it seems to be a good fit. Also helps that its in the same geographic realm of CHG.

Here you are, using Vahaduo.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.2983% / 0.01298339
31.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
28.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
18.6 RUS_Catacomb
12.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Assyrian
Distance: 1.7060% / 0.01705992
32.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
13.8 Levant_Natufian
12.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.7152% / 0.01715191
33.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.6 RUS_Catacomb
9.6 Levant_Natufian


As you can see, unlike what our friend Eline blurts out constantly, Levantine affinity between Kurds and Armenians are roughly similar with the main difference being that Kurds are considerably more Iran_N while Armenians are certainly more CHG-shifted in comparison. The reason Armenians drift westward relative to Kurds is because of relatively higher EEF in Armenians as opposed to Kurds which drifts Armenians a bit more towards the Mediterranean.

Keep in mind the steppe admix is a bit understated in Armenians on these g25/vahaduo kits. In reality steppe admix in Armenians is likely around the 15% range.

[Eline]

Keep in mind the steppe admix is a bit understated in Armenians on these g25/vahaduo kits. In reality steppe admix in Armenians is likely around the 15% range.Hahahah, so funny this. if Armenians score around 15% steppe, then you have to take some digits out from other components. So, your calculator is fake and doesn't work properly! Why should we use your calculator when you already acknowledged that it is not precise?

All I know is that Kurds cluster closer to Iran_ChL than the Armenians do. Iran_ChL consists mostly of CHG. And Iran_ChL was a very important admixture in the past. It was present among the ancient and maybe very, very influential people.

[FinalFlash]

Hahahah, so funny this. if Armenians score around 15% steppe, then you have to take some digits out from other components. So, your calculator is fake and doesn't work properly! Why should we use your calculator when you already acknowledged that it is not precise?

All I know is that Kurds cluster closer to Iran_ChL then the Armenians do. Iran_ChL consists mostly of CHG. And Iran_ChL was a very important admixture in the past. It was present among the ancient and maybe very, very influential people.

It's not the calculator that is the issue, it's the faulty so-called 'academic' samples that are being used that is my issue. I averaged the 'academic' samples on Eurogenes K15 for Armenians(Armenia86, Armenia279, etc.) and I got an average of like 38% West Asian, 42% East Med and a total of less than 8% Atlantic, Baltic, N. Sea, and East Euro.

I made an average of real people using at least 40 kits for Armenian_East and the scores were completely different at around 38-39% West Asian, 32-33% East Med, at least 12% Atlantic, Baltic, N. Sea and E. Euro and higher West Med. All these charts that you like to pull out use faulty 'academic' samples hence why they seemingly "shift towards the Levant/Anatolia".

[Trouble]

Here you are, using Vahaduo.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.2983% / 0.01298339
31.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
28.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
18.6 RUS_Catacomb
12.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Assyrian
Distance: 1.7060% / 0.01705992
32.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
13.8 Levant_Natufian
12.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.7152% / 0.01715191
33.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.6 RUS_Catacomb
9.6 Levant_Natufian


As you can see, unlike what our friend Eline blurts out constantly, Levantine affinity between Kurds and Armenians are roughly similar with the main difference being that Kurds are considerably more Iran_N while Armenians are certainly more CHG-shifted in comparison. The reason Armenians drift westward relative to Kurds is because of relatively higher EEF in Armenians as opposed to Kurds which drifts Armenians a bit more towards the Mediterranean.

Keep in mind the steppe admix is a bit understated in Armenians on these g25/vahaduo kits. In reality steppe admix in Armenians is likely around the 15% range.

Did you run using no penalty? I wonder why the results are so different. Im not sure what settings I had the run on but I usually use an outlier filter. One that doesnt exist on vahudo

[FinalFlash]

Did you run using no penalty? I wonder why the results are so different. Im not sure what settings I had the run on but I usually use an outlier filter. One that doesnt exist on vahudo

Not sure but I just ran them using the default settings. The fit distances seem to be pretty good.

[Eline]

It's not the calculator that is the issue, it's the faulty so-called 'academic' samples that are being used that is my issue. I averaged the 'academic' samples on Eurogenes K15 for Armenians(Armenia86, Armenia279, etc.) and I got an average of like 38% West Asian, 42% East Med and a total of less than 8% Atlantic, Baltic, N. Sea, and East Euro.

I made an average of real people using at least 40 kits for Armenian_East and the scores were completely different at around 38-39% West Asian, 32-33% East Med, at least 12% Atlantic, Baltic, N. Sea and E. Euro and higher West Med. All these charts that you like to pull out use faulty 'academic' samples hence why they seemingly "shift towards the Levant/Anatolia".Forget about all those fake calculators, really. We have already academic papers and we don't need more.

Why don't you understand that the Armenians have more Levant DNA than Kurds and therefore are closer to the Levant. This is mostly because Armenians have MORE ancient Anatolian DNA in them. Anatolian and Armenian DNA had some Levant in it. The more Anatolian/Armenian you are the more Levant you get.


https://i.postimg.cc/639m6dZD/1.png

https://i.postimg.cc/2jdSKmjy/Iran-N-Levant-N-EHG-WHG.png

[FinalFlash]

Forget about all those fake calculators, really. We have already academic papers and we don't need more.

Why don't you understand that the Armenians have more Levant DNA than Kurds and therefore are closer to the Levant. This is mostly because Armenians have MORE ancient Anatolian DNA in them. Anatolian and Armenian DNA had some Levant in it. The more Anatolian/Armenian you are the more Levant you get.


https://i.postimg.cc/639m6dZD/1.png

https://i.postimg.cc/2jdSKmjy/Iran-N-Levant-N-EHG-WHG.png

Most of Anatolia_N is Farmer related stuff and WHG though. It has some Levantine affinities but please don't try to make it seem like Anatolia_N is mostly Levantine lol. Remember, Kurds score like 28% EEF too ;)

[Zoro]

Some of the most valuable charts based on formal stats that detail differences between Armenians and Kurds are here https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?318728-Detailed-specific-formal-study-of-IA-populations-affecting-Iranics&p=6713882#post6713882

One of the biggest differences between Armenians and kurds appears to be in steppe related ancestry and specifically Sarmatian type steppe ancestry this is consistent with kurds having one of the highest R1A in W Asia. Another one is how each population relates to the BMAC

Check out all the charts in the thread and make note of the ones where the Armenians and kurds differ the most

[Zoro]

I'm always interested in formal stats in scientific papers that are directly inconsistent with anything I post but if anyone has anything the onus is on them to post the page number with the table and a link to the publication. I'm fucking tired of wasting time going down rabbit holes to find out in the end that there was nothing relevant there. If anyone wastes my time with irrelevant stuff they will be placed on my troll list.

[Zoro]

To recap here's the table I originally posted. It's based on formal stats qpWave and the following outgroups were used. The relatedness to Kurds is highest on top. Some pointed out here that they are used to seeing Armenians and Assyrians cluster closer to Kurds than Brahui and Iranian Baloch. I replied that is because those admixture results or PCA they saw are skewed more recent admixture whereas this qpWave based table is genomewide and based on the entire population history and includes more ancient branching points as well

The problem here is that no one is very familiar with qpWave and knows how to interpret and run it so no one is able to fully understand what I'm talking about.

I thought about it a little to figure out how to make the casual hobbyists here understand a little.

Most are familiar with the following:

1- Balochi is a W Iranian language and most similar to Kurdish
2- Gedmatch calculators with Baloch/Brahui Gedrosian component show that from all W. Asians Kurds/Lurs and not other W Asians (Caucasus pops, Azeris, Syrians, etc etc ) score highest Gedrosian. This tells you Kurds/Baloch shared ancestors till recent past
3- In spite of Armenians living smack next to Kurds and Brahui living all the way in Pakistan if you go to Gedmatch you will be amazed to see that Brahui still almost share the same amount of DNA segments with Kurds as Armenians with Kurds.

To help you with this I went through the trouble of uploading one of the Brahui.DG and one of the Armenian.DG samples from this table and a Kurmanji Kurdish sample so you can see for yourself.

Use a 50SNP window with 3cM since Gedmatch will not let you go lower. It would have been nice to be able for you to go lower since Brahui ancestors split from Kurd a long time ago and the segments are now small but this should still give you an idea. The kit numbers are on the results below.

Don't take my word for it 1st check with admixture calculator to make sure Kurd , Brahui and Armenian are in fact those ethnicities then run them through the one-to-one tool comparing Kurd with both Brahui and Armenian.

Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Onge_1000G
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Israel_Natufian
Iberia_ElMiron
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG




Ok here we go I have also included other populations for reference. Populations shaded red are close enough to Kurds to almost be considered a single group. Think of p-values as something like probabilities that Kurds and that group can be sister clades. Scientific papers consider anything above p-value 0.05 as significant.

So basically the top couple populations can almost be modelled as 100% Kurds



<colgroup width="166"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="2"></colgroup> <colgroup width="140"></colgroup> <tbody>
QpWave – Test, Kurd-Kurmanji-Iraq Cladiness Check – Rank 0


SAMPLE
CHI SQ
P-value
SNPs USED


.Kurds_Feyli_IQ
4.73
0.981
90184


.Kurd_Kurmanji
6.61
0.921
303019


Iranian.DG
6.73
0.916
279965


.Kurd_Yazidi
8.03
0.842
247231


.Iranian_NW
10.09
0.687
182540


.Kurd_Sorani
10.25
0.673
248590


Adygei.DG
17.83
0.164
281434


Lezgin.DG
18.84
0.128
282336


.Baloch_IR
19.65
0.104
188079


Chechen.DG
21.51
0.063
379199


Brahui.DG
21.69
0.060
279141


Armenian.DG
22.25
0.052
282186


Greek.DG
27.02
0.012
282225


Jew_Iraqi.DG
28.13
0.009
281309


Georgian.DG
28.24
0.008
281674


Cretan.DG
28.51
0.008
281398


.Assyrians
28.67
0.007
186187


Russia_NOssetian.DG
30.88
0.004
280617


Bulgarian
33.62
0.001
280566


Druze.DG
35.79
0.001
282786


Balochi.DG
41.60
0.000
280097


.Pashtun_Afg
42.45
0.000
182127


Polish.DG
53.19
0.000
376550


Basque.DG
66.30
0.000
280394


Sardinian.DG
68.97
0.000
232474


Kalash.DG
69.77
0.000
283488


Sindhi.DG
72.71
0.000
278658


BedouinB.DG
91.63
0.000
284854


Estonian.DG
92.70
0.000
278977


Finnish_1000G
132.82
0.000
81992


Bashkir.DG
151.11
0.000
243901


Saami.DG
166.78
0.000
278445


Turkmen.DG
223.08
0.000
385491


Gujarati_1000G
269.19
0.000
80458


Irula.DG
310.61
0.000
275351


Kazakh.DG
477.04
0.000
243031


Buryat.SG
806.49
0.000
373197


Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG
807.67
0.000
222557


Yakut.DG
944.80
0.000
275842


Burmese.DG
962.59
0.000
272387


Somali.DG
1,006.77
0.000
355138


Mongola.DG
1,107.77
0.000
275062


Dai.DG
1,243.92
0.000
200559


Chinese_Han_1000G
1,653.02
0.000
101885


Bougainville.DG
1,869.35
0.000
283417


Esan.DG
2,680.72
0.000
251172

</tbody>
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[Zoro]

Regarding recent admixture here are the samples from the above table

Inspite of Kurd-Brahui ancestor splitting over 1000 years ago and Armenians living next to Kurds it's still close. I wonder if Gedmatch allowed smaller segments (for more ancient) what the results would have been



Kurmanji Kurd -Brahui.DG segments from Gedmatch


Comparing Kit (Kurd-Kurmanji3) [-] and HJ4889681 (Brahui-2.DG) [-]

Minimum segment threshold size to be included in total = 50 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM
Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.


Chr B37 Start Pos'n B37 End Pos'n Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
1 1,021,658 2,847,488 6.2 148
1 16,082,976 18,352,458 4.2 293
1 162,344,102 163,858,028 3.4 304
1 167,739,821 170,700,758 4.1 477
1 237,455,023 238,652,968 3.1 223
2 4,372,803 5,821,748 3.7 246
8 27,931,751 29,327,924 3.1 205
9 4,576,680 6,837,912 3.6 419
10 30,000,415 31,987,246 3.4 350
13 71,805,592 73,746,040 3.5 324
13 73,850,334 75,647,361 3.4 369
14 25,625,016 27,262,305 3.5 286
14 87,488,261 89,884,358 3.2 337
15 96,098,439 97,178,825 4.0 223
16 1,375,263 2,750,696 3.0 154
18 7,192,874 8,233,559 4.8 200
18 72,243,912 73,259,510 3.1 186
19 1,014,398 2,346,730 5.0 148
20 57,785,057 58,972,200 4.3 282
22 48,359,509 48,940,644 3.9 173

Largest segment = 6.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 76.4 cM (2.133 Pct)

20 shared segments found for this comparison.

425038 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.524 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 1.390 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.021 cpu seconds.

Ver: May 22 2020 05:40:04



Kurmanji Kurd Armenian.DG segments from Gedmatch

Comparing Kit (Kurd-Kurmanji3) [-] and PK6492837 (Armenian-1.DG) [-]

Minimum segment threshold size to be included in total = 50 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM
Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.


Chr B37 Start Pos'n B37 End Pos'n Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
1 235,112,899 236,672,004 4.0 208
2 6,966,583 8,028,725 3.4 201
2 130,668,819 133,269,261 3.6 114
3 3,176,301 4,101,356 3.6 228
4 73,637,861 77,139,510 3.6 422
5 8,062,748 9,579,341 3.2 345
6 212,595 1,098,413 3.1 242
6 6,873,602 8,292,791 3.2 306
6 134,087,290 137,324,655 4.8 455
9 18,920,357 21,054,507 3.5 462
9 26,626,081 27,882,653 3.5 302
9 138,474,785 139,534,703 3.2 132
13 112,248,533 113,324,324 3.4 168
14 30,064,026 31,958,761 3.1 229
14 76,005,557 77,545,470 3.2 301
15 34,090,911 35,439,826 3.0 232
15 92,472,330 93,588,080 4.2 304
15 97,688,099 98,672,792 3.6 171
16 1,997,614 3,999,584 3.3 222
16 83,423,397 84,433,034 4.2 412
17 128,389 978,653 4.1 121
18 4,847,173 6,274,885 5.4 298
18 7,382,672 8,343,765 4.2 194
19 29,882,508 31,699,729 3.7 291
19 32,600,350 34,574,223 3.3 326
20 59,062,102 59,637,542 3.1 153
22 17,939,816 18,523,214 3.2 134

Largest segment = 5.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 97.4 cM (2.715 Pct)

27 shared segments found for this comparison.

425040 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.456 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 1.043 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.096 cpu seconds.

Ver: May 22 2020 05:40:04

[Zoro]

If any kurds would like to get these Armenian and Brahui 1240k public samples So that they can upload them to Gedmatch and run them through calculators and compare them with themselves to see how many segments they share with each let me know

[Eline]

one of the biggest differences between Armenians and kurds appears to be in steppe related ancestry and specifically Sarmatian type steppe ancestry this is consistent with kurds having one of the highest R1A in W Asia. Another one is how each population relates to the BMACAfter so many years of research is this still the best model for the Kurds?

I mean Kurds are like 72 % Iran_ChL + around 28 % Pontic-Caspian steppe Iron Age migrants, right?

https://i.postimg.cc/nh73sGBx/377-CA70-B-CA59-460-E-9-C45-AD0669885-DAE.png

[Zoro]

After so many years of research is this still the best model for the Kurds?

I mean Kurds are like 72 % Iran_ChL + around 28 % Pontic-Caspian steppe Iron Age migrants, right?

https://i.postimg.cc/nh73sGBx/377-CA70-B-CA59-460-E-9-C45-AD0669885-DAE.png


I think you should ask the guy that wrote the article. He is one of my mentors but I think that the basic model of about 70% Iran Chl + 30% Sarmatian/Saka related still holds. His article shows that it has to be Saka related because Turkmenistan IA and Sintashta MLBA which lack the E. Asian Sarmatians/Sakas have did not produce good fits. You can also see this in his dstats also where the biggest difference between Kurds and Chalcolithic Iranians are with E. Eurasian dstats. The shift towards the east and central asia of kurds compared to armenians makes sense in this light as well as kurdish and balochi being on the parthian branch of indo-iranian whereas armenian is on its seperate branch of indo-european.


Anyways if you contact Dilawer directly he will be able to confirm for sure.

[Eline]

I think you should ask the guy that wrote the article. He is one of my mentors but I think that the basic model of about 70% Iran Chl + 30% Sarmatian/Saka related still holds. His article shows that it has to be Saka related because Turkmenistan IA and Sintashta MLBA which lack the E. Asian Sarmatians/Sakas have did not produce good fits. You can also see this in his dstats also where the biggest difference between Kurds and Chalcolithic Iranians are with E. Eurasian dstats. The shift towards the east and central asia of kurds compared to armenians makes sense in this light as well as kurdish and balochi being on the parthian branch of indo-iranian whereas armenian is on its seperate branch of indo-european.


Anyways if you contact Dilawer directly he will be able to confirm for sure.Didn't he make some progress after this?

Maybe I will contact him, but it is not proper to contradict him because I don't agree with him on many fields. But he is more knowledgeable about this than I am and sometimes he makes sense, but sometimes he does not. And I don't want to bother him and take his time when I’m not fully sure whether he is right or not.


I do agree with him and with you that Kurds have some ties with the Eastern Iranian people from SouthCentral Asia and especially the Balochi people who speak a Western Iranian language but genetically located somewhere between East and West Iranians.

But you are saying that Kurds have some E. Asian in them and then you mention Balochi people in the same sentence? Do Balochi also have E. Asian in them? I thought that Balochi had actually a lot Iran_NEO in them instead of E. Asian. I don't understand this, because there is some contradiction in it.


It is true that people like Armenians belong to a different language group, but nevertheless they are NorthWest Asians, just like the Kurds. People like Georgians don’t even speak an IEan language, but nevertheless Kurds are much closer to the Georgians than to people in Pakistan. Why? Very simple, for thousands of years people in Kurdistan share common history with people from the Caucasus. While people from Kurdistan broke their ties with SouthCentral Asia after the Parthians and Sogdians.

[Zoro]

Didn't he make some progress after this?

Maybe I will contact him, but it is not proper to contradict him because I don't agree with him on many fields. But he is more knowledgeable about this than I am and sometimes he makes sense, but sometimes he does not. And I don't want to bother him and take his time when I’m not fully sure whether he is right or not.


I do agree with him and with you that Kurds have some ties with the Eastern Iranian people from SouthCentral Asia and especially the Balochi people who speak a Western Iranian language but genetically located somewhere between East and West Iranians.

But you are saying that Kurds have some E. Asian in them and then you mention Balochi people in the same sentence? Do Balochi also have E. Asian in them? I thought that Balochi had actually a lot Iran_NEO in them instead of E. Asian. I don't understand this, because there is some contradiction in it.


It is true that people like Armenians belong to a different language group, but nevertheless they are NorthWest Asians, just like the Kurds. People like Georgians don’t even speak an IEan language, but nevertheless Kurds are much closer to the Georgians than to people in Pakistan. Why? Very simple, for thousands of years people in Kurdistan share common history with people from the Caucasus. While people from Kurdistan broke their ties with SouthCentral Asia after the Parthians and Sogdians.


I'm sure he doesn't care about being contradicted as long as you have a technical argument to support your position. The thing with him is he is extremely technical and he goes wherever the data takes him. But he doesn't rely on just one software or program. He double checks his work with other software to make sure it's all consistent. He also makes genetic software.

The ties of Kurds with E. Iranian people and Central Asia are pretty clear. Whether it be Parthians, Zoroastrianism, Steppe, East or Central Asian shift compared to their Assyrian, Armenian and Georgian neighbors and so on.

yes its true that Iranian Baloch and some of the lesser ASI admixed Pakistani Balochi and Brahui share the most ancestry with Iran-N just like the qpWave results I posted which showed Shahr-e-Sokhteh nearest followed by Balochi and Brahui. This however does not mean that Baloch don't have Parthian or steppe or E Asian ancestry. Formal stats show they do and in fact both Balochi and Kurdish are on the Parthian branch of IE. Granted some of the E. Eurasian shift comes from AASI. The problem is Admixture based calculators don't show older E. Asian. That's why you have to use formal stats. Again contact Dilawer for details.

Yes so Armenians and Kurds do share recent genetic drift because naturally all neighboring populations do but if you dig in to their pasts with formal stats you will see they do have quite different more distant past histories. Just like Baloch and Sindhi share recent genetic drift but if you dig into their pasts with formal stats they become closer and closer to Kurds and further and further from Sindhis.

[Eline]

I'm sure he doesn't care about being contradicted as long as you have a technical argument to support your position. The thing with him is he is extremely technical and he goes wherever the data takes him. But he doesn't rely on just one software or program. He double checks his work with other software to make sure it's all consistent. He also makes genetic software.

The ties of Kurds with E. Iranian people and Central Asia are pretty clear. Whether it be Parthians, Zoroastrianism, Steppe, East or Central Asian shift compared to their Assyrian, Armenian and Georgian neighbors and so on.

yes its true that Iranian Baloch and some of the lesser ASI admixed Pakistani Balochi and Brahui share the most ancestry with Iran-N just like the qpWave results I posted which showed Shahr-e-Sokhteh nearest followed by Balochi and Brahui. This however does not mean that Baloch don't have Parthian or steppe or E Asian ancestry. Formal stats show they do and in fact both Balochi and Kurdish are on the Parthian branch of IE. Granted some of the E. Eurasian shift comes from AASI. The problem is Admixture based calculators don't show older E. Asian. That's why you have to use formal stats. Again contact Dilawer for details.

Yes so Armenians and Kurds do share recent genetic drift because naturally all neighboring populations do but if you dig in to their pasts with formal stats you will see they do have quite different more distant past histories. Just like Baloch and Sindhi share recent genetic drift but if you dig into their pasts with formal stats they become closer and closer to Kurds and further and further from Sindhis.First of all, I read many papers on Western Eurasia and all those papers do agree that Kurds are predominately native to West Asia with some minor admixture from outside. Majority of Kurdish ancestors are from NorthWest Asia. So, actually Kurds didn't mixed much since the ancient times compared to their neighbors. It is simply not true that Kurds have a lot E. Asian DNA in them.

Some call ancient Kurdish ancestors proto-Hurrians, some call them Northern Mesopotamians, some call it proto-Western Iranics from Zagros. But I like the idea of proto-Sumerian Northern Mesopotamian the most.

There is evidence that the ancient Sumerians went to BMAC. Many artifacts in BMAC resemble the artifacts of the ancient Ubaidian Sumerians or maybe even Samarra culture Sumerians from the NorthEastern Mesopotamia. So there was already migration from West Asia into the SouthCentral Asia (BMAC). If people in SouthCentral Asia share some DNA with NorthWest Asians it is most likely that they got it from the NorthWest Asians. NorthWest Asians exported a lot Y-DNA haplogorups into SouthCentral Asia, think of J2a, G2a, L and many more.

So, Kurds are native to NorthWest Asia just like other native people of NorthWest Asia.

Kurds some admixture from outside, but so do other NorthWest Asians. They also have some non-native DNA in them. And unlike Dilawer I don’t think there is much E. Asian DNA in NorthWest Asian populations. He is really exaggerate the amount of it.

On the other side, people in SouthCentral Asia are just native to their region, but like I said they received NorthWest Asian DNA from BMAC and later maybe from the Medes and Persians. Plus They have got some specific Siberian Steppes admixture in them that people in NorthWest Asia lack.

What I'm trying to say is that Kurds are native NorthWest Asians with some non-native elements in their DNA, maybe more than Georgians. But on the other side, Eastern Iranians are native to SouthCentral Asia with some DNA from the Steppes and NorthWest Asia and they are influenced a lot by the Persians in recent times.

You see the difference, both groups with different deep roots.

So, it is simply not true when you say that Kurds have 'recent' genetic drift toward NorthWest Asia, because the most deepest roots of Kurds are in NorthWest Asia.

Kurds share some very archaic ancient history with people from the Caucasus. Iran_NEO and CHG are very deeply connected with each other.

Later after the Neolithic revolution there was some movement in all direction, but the last 2000 years there is more intensive contact between the Persians and SouthCentral Asians. And rhere was of course some major Mongol/Turkic migration after that, but it didn't affect the Kurdish genome much.


Conclusion: Dilawer is wrong on 2 points. a) Kurds don't have much E. Asian in them and their genome is mostly native to NorthWest Asia. b) SouthCentral Asians are native to their region and share their history with the Persians more than with the Kurds. Dilawer should better write and investigate more about the ties between the Persians and SouthCentral Asia instead. I don't understand why he is more focused on Kurds than on the Persians, because people in SouthCental Asia (including he Baluch people) are closer to the Persians than to the Kurds.

[Zoro]

How can Dilawer be wrong. Do you have any formal stats to suggest that Kurds are more than 70% native Iran-Chl? No of course not. So don't call someone wrong when you don't have formal stats to show that Kurds are more than 70 % native Iran-Chl. Admixture or G25 doesn't cut it buddy.

70% of Kurds ancestors are native + 30% of their ancestors are from the steppe and that's where the R1a and some of their other haplos are from. They are CLEARLY very Central Asia/Steppe/E. Asian shifted compared to Armenians/Assyrians/Iran-Chl ACCORDING TO FORMAL STATS. ADMIXTURE CALCULATORS DON'T PICK UP ON OLDER E. ASIAN ADMIXTURE. THAT'S WHY USERS LIKE SABA HAVE THE CLEARLY E. ASIAN EDAR GENE AND ADMIXTURE CALCULATORS DON'T SHOW MUCH E. ASIAN FOR HIM.

You and others have been too much brain washed by Gedmatch calculators and 23andMe and Ancestry DNA. Those things are NOT designed to pick up on older E. Asian.

Do yourself a favor and start understanding formal stats and how to run those tools and we will have much less disagreement.

Also history shows humans have travelled very far over 1000s of years. You wouldn't have guessed that Iran-N has 20% ANE if it wasn't for formal stats.

[Trouble]

How can Dilawer be wrong. Do you have any formal stats to suggest that Kurds are more than 70% native Iran-Chl? No of course not. So don't call someone wrong when you don't have formal stats to show that Kurds are more than 70 % native Iran-Chl. Admixture or G25 doesn't cut it buddy.

70% of Kurds ancestors are native + 30% of their ancestors are from the steppe and that's where the R1a and some of their other haplos are from. They are CLEARLY very Central Asia/Steppe/E. Asian shifted compared to Armenians/Assyrians/Iran-Chl ACCORDING TO FORMAL STATS. ADMIXTURE CALCULATORS DON'T PICK UP ON OLDER E. ASIAN ADMIXTURE. THAT'S WHY USERS LIKE SABA HAVE THE CLEARLY E. ASIAN EDAR GENE AND ADMIXTURE CALCULATORS DON'T SHOW MUCH E. ASIAN FOR HIM.

You and others have been too much brain washed by Gedmatch calculators and 23andMe and Ancestry DNA. Those things are NOT designed to pick up on older E. Asian.

Do yourself a favor and start understanding formal stats and how to run those tools and we will have much less disagreement.

Also history shows humans have travelled very far over 1000s of years. You wouldn't have guessed that Iran-N has 20% ANE if it wasn't for formal stats.

I'm a little confused, what do you mean by "older east asian"? What qualifies as east asian in your book?

[Eline]

How can Dilawer be wrong. Do you have any formal stats to suggest that Kurds are more than 70% native Iran-Chl? No of course not. So don't call someone wrong when you don't have formal stats to show that Kurds are more than 70 % native Iran-Chl. Admixture or G25 doesn't cut it buddy.

70% of Kurds ancestors are native + 30% of their ancestors are from the steppe and that's where the R1a and some of their other haplos are from. They are CLEARLY very Central Asia/Steppe/E. Asian shifted compared to Armenians/Assyrians/Iran-Chl ACCORDING TO FORMAL STATS. ADMIXTURE CALCULATORS DON'T PICK UP ON OLDER E. ASIAN ADMIXTURE. THAT'S WHY USERS LIKE SABA HAVE THE CLEARLY E. ASIAN EDAR GENE AND ADMIXTURE CALCULATORS DON'T SHOW MUCH E. ASIAN FOR HIM.

You and others have been too much brain washed by Gedmatch calculators and 23andMe and Ancestry DNA. Those things are NOT designed to pick up on older E. Asian.

Do yourself a favor and start understanding formal stats and how to run those tools and we will have much less disagreement.

Also history shows humans have travelled very far over 1000s of years. You wouldn't have guessed that Iran-N has 20% ANE if it wasn't for formal stats.Really, I don't want you to be annoyed. Not necessary at all.

I do agree with you that there was some (back)migration into Kurdistan from the Iron Age and on, but 70% of native DNA in Kurds is still a vast majority. A lot R1a-Z93 is not native. Compared to the Armenians or Georgians Kurds have a lot R1a, true. But compared to SouthCentral Asiatic people, Kurds don't have a lot R1a. Kurds have maybe between 20-30% of R1a and that reflects very well in their auDNA. But the other part is very native to Kurdistan

All the major DNA studies on Kurds do agree that Kurds are predominately native to their homeland, with some (back)migration.

Here is Belgium native people in Belgium are not 100% the same as in the Copper Age. A lot DNA in Western Europe also changed during the Iron Age. But nevertheless, there is some native Copper Age DNA left in Belgium.

In Kurdistan around 70% of DNA among people is native from Copper Age. That is a lot. And we can simply conclude that the people in Kurdistan are predominately native to their homeland. I don't understand why your focus lies on non-native DNA, while you should be focused on native NorthWest Asian DNA, since it is the majority of the Kurdish genome. And I'm not trying to irritate you.

[Zoro]

I'm a little confused, what do you mean by "older east asian"? What qualifies as east asian in your book?

E. Asian that was brought over by Iron Age steppe nomads and during medieval times by turkics. This E. Asian has been well incorporated into the Iranian/Kurdish gene pool and since most have it is considered "normal" Iranian/Kurdish genes and are picked up as West Asian and not East Asian by Admixture calculators.

[Zoro]

Really, I don't want you to be annoyed. Not necessary at all.

I do agree with you that there was some (back)migration into Kurdistan from the Iron Age and on, but 70% of native DNA in Kurds is still a vast majority. A lot R1a-Z93 is not native. Compared to the Armenians or Georgians Kurds have a lot R1a, true. But compared to SouthCentral Asiatic people, Kurds don't have a lot R1a. Kurds have maybe between 20-30% of R1a and that reflects very well in their auDNA. But the other part is very native to Kurdistan

All the major DNA studies on Kurds do agree that Kurds are predominately native to their homeland, with some (back)migration.

Here is Belgium native people in Belgium are not 100% the same as in the Copper Age. A lot DNA in Western Europe also changed during the Iron Age. But nevertheless, there is some native Copper Age DNA left in Belgium.

In Kurdistan around 70% of DNA among people is native from Copper Age. That is a lot. And we can simply conclude that the people in Kurdistan are predominately native to their homeland. I don't understand why your focus lies on non-native DNA, while you should be focused on native NorthWest Asian DNA, since it is the majority of the Kurdish genome. And I'm not trying to irritate you.

No disagreement on 70% native chalcolithic DNA

[Trouble]

E. Asian that was brought over by Iron Age steppe nomads and during medieval times by turkics. This E. Asian has been well incorporated into the Iranian/Kurdish gene pool and since most have it is considered "normal" Iranian/Kurdish genes and are picked up as West Asian and not East Asian by Admixture calculators.

Iron Age steppe nomads? Like Scythians?

I thought Scythians were mostly a genetic dead end. But either case, G25 is actually pretty good at picking up east eurasian ancestry. I highly suggest trying it out. You have the option of going back as far as you're able to to get the most ancient models you want. You can use groups that have been verified with formal stats to have no east eurasian and then pick an east eurasian proxy. You're not limited in this at all:

"sample": "Kurdish:Average",
"fit": 2.6501,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 36.67,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 33.33,
"GEO_CHG": 15,
"Levant_PPNC": 5.83,
"RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 5,
"Levant_Natufian": 3.33,
"RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N": 0.83


They barely get any at all. So small it might not even register.

[Trouble]

In any case, I don't think it's constructive to get all your information and mentoring from one person. Kurds and even Persians cluster firmly with WEST Eurasian populations on just about all PCAs I've seen with some eastern shift towards S/C Asia but this has more to due with Iran_N ancestry than anything else.

If Kurds were secretly 10% east Eurasian we would see something different.

[Eline]

If Kurds were secretly 10% east Eurasian we would see something different.Maybe when you dig deeper into ANE and other very old 'archaic' components you will find between 8-12 % E. Asian in Kurds. Kurds still cluster with other northwest Asians mainly because there is also some E. Asian in the ancient CHG and in other modern northwest asiatic people. At this moment I dont have models to show you, but i have seen it.

There is East Asian in Kurds, but a lot of it is from pre-history (ANE). There is also some E. Asian in other Northwestern Asiatic people. It is for sure not from the Turkic people.

[Trouble]

Maybe when you dig deeper into ANE and other very old 'archaic' components you will find between 8-12 % E. Asian in Kurds. Kurds still cluster with other northwest Asians mainly because there is also some E. Asian in the ancient CHG and in other modern northwest asiatic people. At this moment I dont have models to show you, but i have seen it.

There is East Asian in Kurds, but a lot of it is from pre-history. There is also E. Asian in other Northwestern Asiatic people.

Maybe 7-8% seeing as they get 30% MA1.

[Zoro]

Iron Age steppe nomads? Like Scythians?

I thought Scythians were mostly a genetic dead end. But either case, G25 is actually pretty good at picking up east eurasian ancestry. I highly suggest trying it out. You have the option of going back as far as you're able to to get the most ancient models you want. You can use groups that have been verified with formal stats to have no east eurasian and then pick an east eurasian proxy. You're not limited in this at all:

"sample": "Kurdish:Average",
"fit": 2.6501,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 36.67,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 33.33,
"GEO_CHG": 15,
"Levant_PPNC": 5.83,
"RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 5,
"Levant_Natufian": 3.33,
"RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N": 0.83


They barely get any at all. So small it might not even register.

This just proves that G25 is off. No one uses it in the scientific community. They use formal stats in scientific papers. So if we go by the qpAdm results that Eline posted on the previous page showing 30% Saka related admixture into Kurds and assume those specific Sakas were about 25% E. Asian then we get 0.25x0.3= 7.5% E Asian admixture for Kurds after the chalcolithic

Now if we cut through the chase and use Iran-Chl + Buryats we get 5 % Buryat with qpAdm details below. 13 outgroups were used and 700,000 SNPs in the calculation. The p-value for this model was an amazing 0.97! 1 is the max and standard errors were only 1.6%!


numthreads: 8
allsnps: YES
## qpAdm version: 634
seed: 1944317573

left pops:
.Kurd_Kurmanji-Iraq
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz
Buryat.DG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Onge_1000G
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Israel_Natufian
Iberia_ElMiron
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG

0 .Kurd_Kurmanji-Iraq 1
1 Iran_C_HajjiFiruz 3
2 Buryat.DG 2
3 Mbuti.DG 4
4 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1
5 China_Tianyuan 1
6 Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1
7 Russia_Sunghir3.SG 1
8 Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1
9 Onge_1000G 6
10 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 4
11 Israel_Natufian 1
12 Iberia_ElMiron 1
13 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
14 Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1
15 DevilsCave_N.SG 2
16 Papuan.DG 15
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 709309 indivs: 46
number of blocks for block jackknife: 711
## ncols: 709309
coverage: .Kurd_Kurmanji-Iraq 435168
coverage: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz 618520
coverage: Buryat.DG 709052
coverage: Mbuti.DG 690580
coverage: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 654138
coverage: China_Tianyuan 529629
coverage: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 548119
coverage: Russia_Sunghir3.SG 709077
coverage: Russia_Kostenki14.SG 643866
coverage: Onge_1000G 704593
coverage: Morocco_Iberomaurusian 674179
coverage: Israel_Natufian 269240
coverage: Iberia_ElMiron 369958
coverage: Russia_MA1_HG.SG 493659
coverage: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 492618
coverage: DevilsCave_N.SG 708905
coverage: Papuan.DG 690567
dof (jackknife): 622.622
numsnps used: 709309
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 12 chisq: 4.333 tail: 0.976639515 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: -4.333 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.455
China_Tianyuan 1.129
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.046
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.185
Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.195
Onge_1000G 1.177
Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.414
Israel_Natufian -0.575
Iberia_ElMiron -0.204
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.131
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.842
DevilsCave_N.SG 2.722
Papuan.DG 1.175
A:
scale 199.306
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz -0.069
Buryat.DG 1.413


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: 4.333 taildiff: 0.976639515
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.457 -0.350
China_Tianyuan 1.126 -0.212
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.045 -0.339
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.185 0.097
Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.195 2.268
Onge_1000G 1.179 -0.569
Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.416 0.250
Israel_Natufian -0.575 0.674
Iberia_ElMiron -0.205 -0.716
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.133 0.335
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.843 -1.030
DevilsCave_N.SG 2.720 -1.730
Papuan.DG 1.176 1.430
A:
scale 200.844 5873.595
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz -0.090 -1.206
Buryat.DG 1.411 -0.738


best coefficients: 0.953 0.047
Jackknife mean: 0.952966441 0.047033559
std. errors: 0.016 0.016

error covariance (* 1000000)
243 -243
-243 243


summ: .Kurd_Kurmanji-Iraq 2 0.976640 0.953 0.047 243 -243 243

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 12 4.333 0.97664 0.953 0.047
01 1 13 12.961 0.450808 1.000 0.000
10 1 13 2216.876 0 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.97664 - -
best pat: 01 0.450808 chi(nested): 8.628 p-value for nested model: 0.00331075

coeffs: 0.953 0.047

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000153 -0.342714
details: Buryat.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.003292 6.113104
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000008 Z: 0.018308

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz China_Tianyuan -0.000427 -0.875447
details: Buryat.DG China_Tianyuan 0.007969 13.828316
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000034 Z: -0.069814

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000014 0.046700
details: Buryat.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000337 0.980281
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000029 Z: 0.098589

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.000048 -0.092848
details: Buryat.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.001377 -2.455782
dscore: Russia_Sunghir3.SG f4: -0.000110 Z: -0.219164

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.000532 -1.089306
details: Buryat.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.001743 -3.094335
dscore: Russia_Kostenki14.SG f4: -0.000589 Z: -1.227673

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Onge_1000G -0.000429 -1.052436
details: Buryat.DG Onge_1000G 0.008415 17.482150
dscore: Onge_1000G f4: -0.000015 Z: -0.036316

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.000109 0.288440
details: Buryat.DG Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.002966 -7.312654
dscore: Morocco_Iberomaurusian f4: -0.000035 Z: -0.095631

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Israel_Natufian 0.000125 0.313437
details: Buryat.DG Israel_Natufian -0.004103 -10.625986
dscore: Israel_Natufian f4: -0.000073 Z: -0.186979

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Iberia_ElMiron 0.000220 0.478018
details: Buryat.DG Iberia_ElMiron -0.001371 -2.854726
dscore: Iberia_ElMiron f4: 0.000145 Z: 0.322854

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000195 -0.393757
details: Buryat.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000885 1.536543
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000144 Z: -0.296297

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000663 1.369161
details: Buryat.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.005736 -11.041204
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.000363 Z: 0.764107

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000894 -2.069117
details: Buryat.DG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.019330 36.504408
dscore: DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000054 Z: 0.126125

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Papuan.DG -0.000767 -1.835661
details: Buryat.DG Papuan.DG 0.008159 16.598805
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000348 Z: -0.850344

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.018
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -0.070
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.099
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.219
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -1.228
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Onge_1000G -0.036
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.096
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian -0.187
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iberia_ElMiron 0.323
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.296
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.764
gendstat: Mbuti.DG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.126
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -0.850
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.077
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.042
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.217
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -1.097
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Onge_1000G -0.049
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.090
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian -0.153
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iberia_ElMiron 0.258
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.283
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.656
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.090
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.767
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.115
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.129
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.937
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Onge_1000G 0.040
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.004
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian -0.072
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iberia_ElMiron 0.327
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.190
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.659
gendstat: China_Tianyuan DevilsCave_N.SG 0.173
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -0.641
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.249
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -1.171
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Onge_1000G -0.093
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.138
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian -0.216
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iberia_ElMiron 0.229
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.318
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.619
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.049
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.791
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.896
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Onge_1000G 0.187
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.142
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Israel_Natufian 0.065
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Iberia_ElMiron 0.456
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.059
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.761
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.307
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Papuan.DG -0.465
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Onge_1000G 1.136
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Morocco_Iberomaurusian 1.056
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Israel_Natufian 0.899
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Iberia_ElMiron 1.363
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.787
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.593
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG DevilsCave_N.SG 1.240
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Papuan.DG 0.485
gendstat: Onge_1000G Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.046
gendstat: Onge_1000G Israel_Natufian -0.117
gendstat: Onge_1000G Iberia_ElMiron 0.318
gendstat: Onge_1000G Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.252
gendstat: Onge_1000G Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.733
gendstat: Onge_1000G DevilsCave_N.SG 0.173
gendstat: Onge_1000G Papuan.DG -0.905
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Israel_Natufian -0.083
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Iberia_ElMiron 0.357
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.193
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.761
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian DevilsCave_N.SG 0.187
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Papuan.DG -0.707
gendstat: Israel_Natufian Iberia_ElMiron 0.428
gendstat: Israel_Natufian Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.123
gendstat: Israel_Natufian Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.797
gendstat: Israel_Natufian DevilsCave_N.SG 0.241
gendstat: Israel_Natufian Papuan.DG -0.547
gendstat: Iberia_ElMiron Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.497
gendstat: Iberia_ElMiron Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.377
gendstat: Iberia_ElMiron DevilsCave_N.SG -0.177
gendstat: Iberia_ElMiron Papuan.DG -0.961
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.852
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.357
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.384
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG DevilsCave_N.SG -0.581
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -1.368
gendstat: DevilsCave_N.SG Papuan.DG -0.996

## end of run

[Trouble]

This just proves that G25 is off. No one uses it in the scientific community. They use formal stats in scientific papers. So if we go by the qpAdm results that Eline posted on the previous page showing 30% Saka related admixture into Kurds and assume those specific Sakas were about 25% E. Asian then we get 0.25x0.3= 7.5% E Asian admixture for Kurds after the chalcolithic

Now if we cut through the chase and use Iran-Chl + Buryats we get 5 % Buryat with qpAdm details below. 13 outgroups were used and 700,000 SNPs in the calculation. The p-value for this model was an amazing 0.97! 1 is the max and standard errors were only 1.6%!


numthreads: 8
allsnps: YES
## qpAdm version: 634
seed: 1944317573

left pops:
.Kurd_Kurmanji-Iraq
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz
Buryat.DG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Onge_1000G
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Israel_Natufian
Iberia_ElMiron
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG

0 .Kurd_Kurmanji-Iraq 1
1 Iran_C_HajjiFiruz 3
2 Buryat.DG 2
3 Mbuti.DG 4
4 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1
5 China_Tianyuan 1
6 Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1
7 Russia_Sunghir3.SG 1
8 Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1
9 Onge_1000G 6
10 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 4
11 Israel_Natufian 1
12 Iberia_ElMiron 1
13 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
14 Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1
15 DevilsCave_N.SG 2
16 Papuan.DG 15
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 709309 indivs: 46
number of blocks for block jackknife: 711
## ncols: 709309
coverage: .Kurd_Kurmanji-Iraq 435168
coverage: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz 618520
coverage: Buryat.DG 709052
coverage: Mbuti.DG 690580
coverage: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 654138
coverage: China_Tianyuan 529629
coverage: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 548119
coverage: Russia_Sunghir3.SG 709077
coverage: Russia_Kostenki14.SG 643866
coverage: Onge_1000G 704593
coverage: Morocco_Iberomaurusian 674179
coverage: Israel_Natufian 269240
coverage: Iberia_ElMiron 369958
coverage: Russia_MA1_HG.SG 493659
coverage: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 492618
coverage: DevilsCave_N.SG 708905
coverage: Papuan.DG 690567
dof (jackknife): 622.622
numsnps used: 709309
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 12 chisq: 4.333 tail: 0.976639515 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: -4.333 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.455
China_Tianyuan 1.129
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.046
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.185
Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.195
Onge_1000G 1.177
Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.414
Israel_Natufian -0.575
Iberia_ElMiron -0.204
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.131
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.842
DevilsCave_N.SG 2.722
Papuan.DG 1.175
A:
scale 199.306
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz -0.069
Buryat.DG 1.413


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: 4.333 taildiff: 0.976639515
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.457 -0.350
China_Tianyuan 1.126 -0.212
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.045 -0.339
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.185 0.097
Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.195 2.268
Onge_1000G 1.179 -0.569
Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.416 0.250
Israel_Natufian -0.575 0.674
Iberia_ElMiron -0.205 -0.716
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.133 0.335
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.843 -1.030
DevilsCave_N.SG 2.720 -1.730
Papuan.DG 1.176 1.430
A:
scale 200.844 5873.595
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz -0.090 -1.206
Buryat.DG 1.411 -0.738


best coefficients: 0.953 0.047
Jackknife mean: 0.952966441 0.047033559
std. errors: 0.016 0.016

error covariance (* 1000000)
243 -243
-243 243


summ: .Kurd_Kurmanji-Iraq 2 0.976640 0.953 0.047 243 -243 243

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 12 4.333 0.97664 0.953 0.047
01 1 13 12.961 0.450808 1.000 0.000
10 1 13 2216.876 0 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.97664 - -
best pat: 01 0.450808 chi(nested): 8.628 p-value for nested model: 0.00331075

coeffs: 0.953 0.047

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000153 -0.342714
details: Buryat.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.003292 6.113104
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000008 Z: 0.018308

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz China_Tianyuan -0.000427 -0.875447
details: Buryat.DG China_Tianyuan 0.007969 13.828316
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000034 Z: -0.069814

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000014 0.046700
details: Buryat.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000337 0.980281
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000029 Z: 0.098589

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.000048 -0.092848
details: Buryat.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.001377 -2.455782
dscore: Russia_Sunghir3.SG f4: -0.000110 Z: -0.219164

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.000532 -1.089306
details: Buryat.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.001743 -3.094335
dscore: Russia_Kostenki14.SG f4: -0.000589 Z: -1.227673

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Onge_1000G -0.000429 -1.052436
details: Buryat.DG Onge_1000G 0.008415 17.482150
dscore: Onge_1000G f4: -0.000015 Z: -0.036316

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.000109 0.288440
details: Buryat.DG Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.002966 -7.312654
dscore: Morocco_Iberomaurusian f4: -0.000035 Z: -0.095631

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Israel_Natufian 0.000125 0.313437
details: Buryat.DG Israel_Natufian -0.004103 -10.625986
dscore: Israel_Natufian f4: -0.000073 Z: -0.186979

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Iberia_ElMiron 0.000220 0.478018
details: Buryat.DG Iberia_ElMiron -0.001371 -2.854726
dscore: Iberia_ElMiron f4: 0.000145 Z: 0.322854

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000195 -0.393757
details: Buryat.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000885 1.536543
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000144 Z: -0.296297

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000663 1.369161
details: Buryat.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.005736 -11.041204
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.000363 Z: 0.764107

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000894 -2.069117
details: Buryat.DG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.019330 36.504408
dscore: DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000054 Z: 0.126125

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz Papuan.DG -0.000767 -1.835661
details: Buryat.DG Papuan.DG 0.008159 16.598805
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000348 Z: -0.850344

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.018
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -0.070
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.099
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.219
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -1.228
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Onge_1000G -0.036
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.096
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian -0.187
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iberia_ElMiron 0.323
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.296
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.764
gendstat: Mbuti.DG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.126
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -0.850
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.077
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.042
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.217
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -1.097
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Onge_1000G -0.049
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.090
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian -0.153
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iberia_ElMiron 0.258
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.283
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.656
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.090
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.767
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.115
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.129
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.937
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Onge_1000G 0.040
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.004
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian -0.072
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iberia_ElMiron 0.327
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.190
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.659
gendstat: China_Tianyuan DevilsCave_N.SG 0.173
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -0.641
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.249
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -1.171
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Onge_1000G -0.093
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.138
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian -0.216
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iberia_ElMiron 0.229
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.318
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.619
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.049
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.791
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.896
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Onge_1000G 0.187
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.142
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Israel_Natufian 0.065
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Iberia_ElMiron 0.456
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.059
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.761
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.307
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Papuan.DG -0.465
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Onge_1000G 1.136
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Morocco_Iberomaurusian 1.056
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Israel_Natufian 0.899
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Iberia_ElMiron 1.363
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.787
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.593
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG DevilsCave_N.SG 1.240
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Papuan.DG 0.485
gendstat: Onge_1000G Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.046
gendstat: Onge_1000G Israel_Natufian -0.117
gendstat: Onge_1000G Iberia_ElMiron 0.318
gendstat: Onge_1000G Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.252
gendstat: Onge_1000G Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.733
gendstat: Onge_1000G DevilsCave_N.SG 0.173
gendstat: Onge_1000G Papuan.DG -0.905
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Israel_Natufian -0.083
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Iberia_ElMiron 0.357
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.193
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.761
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian DevilsCave_N.SG 0.187
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Papuan.DG -0.707
gendstat: Israel_Natufian Iberia_ElMiron 0.428
gendstat: Israel_Natufian Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.123
gendstat: Israel_Natufian Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.797
gendstat: Israel_Natufian DevilsCave_N.SG 0.241
gendstat: Israel_Natufian Papuan.DG -0.547
gendstat: Iberia_ElMiron Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.497
gendstat: Iberia_ElMiron Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.377
gendstat: Iberia_ElMiron DevilsCave_N.SG -0.177
gendstat: Iberia_ElMiron Papuan.DG -0.961
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.852
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG DevilsCave_N.SG 0.357
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.384
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG DevilsCave_N.SG -0.581
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -1.368
gendstat: DevilsCave_N.SG Papuan.DG -0.996

## end of run

I have a hard time seeing how Kurds are 30% Scythian.

How can it be that Scythians left virtually no trace anywhere except in West Asia where they didn't even exist? They lived in the Eurasian steppe.

[FinalFlash]

I have a hard time seeing how Kurds are 30% Scythian.

How can it be that Scythians left virtually no trace anywhere except in West Asia where they didn't even exist? They lived in the Eurasian steppe.

Maybe the sample sizes are still too limited?

[Trouble]

Maybe the sample sizes are still too limited?

In terms of the Kurdish samples? Or the Scythians?

On G25 Kurds come out as 88% Iran ChL and 12% Saka Kazakh steppe. You might get variation here and there but I don't think you will get close to 30%.

Unless there were some Sakas that were much more BMAC/Iran_N shifted compared to the ones on G25.

[FinalFlash]

In terms of the Kurdish samples? Or the Scythians?

On G25 Kurds come out as 88% Iran ChL and 12% Saka Kazakh steppe. You might get variation here and there but I don't think you will get close to 30%.

Unless there were some Sakas that were much more BMAC/Iran_N shifted compared to the ones on G25.

Maybe the number of Kurdish samples aren't enough on G25? I mean are we really going to get an accurate image of like 5 samples for an entire ethnic group? Do we even know where these Kurds are from?

I mean if the Armenian 'academic' samples differ noticeably to their real life counterparts, then it's possible Kurds do as well. Or any ethnicity for that matter. Besides, on Vahaduo Kurds average around 20% Steppe which is more than what G25 indicates so how do we know which is more accurate, really?

[Trouble]

Maybe the number of Kurdish samples aren't enough on G25? I mean are we really going to get an accurate image of like 5 samples for an entire ethnic group? Do we even know where these Kurds are from?

I mean if the Armenian 'academic' samples differ noticeably to their real life counterparts, then it's possible Kurds do as well. Or any ethnicity for that matter. Besides, on Vahaduo Kurds average around 20% Steppe which is more than what G25 indicates so how do we know which is more accurate, really?

I understand what you're saying but the variation can't possibly be that massive. Also we would see some discrepancies if it were really the case.

And can you post that model from Vahaduo?

[FinalFlash]

I understand what you're saying but the variation can't possibly be that massive. Also we would see some discrepancies if it were really the case.

And can you post that model from Vahaduo?

Sure thing. Here you are.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.3381% / 0.01338135
32.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
30.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.2 RUS_Catacomb
10.4 Levant_Natufian
7.2 GEO_CHG
0.0 Saka_Kazakh_steppe

19.2% Steppe derived on average so about 20% as I've stated previously which is just about double what G25 suggests. That's a pretty big change imo. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Kurds on average had more than 20% steppe. I think steppe admixture in West Asia has generally been understated over the years on anthroforums. I think it depends on the samples and sample size as well. I don't think you'll get an accurate picture for an ethnic group of 10s of millions based off of 5-10 samples which ignores regional variations among other things as I've brought up before.

[Trouble]

Sure thing. Here you are.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.3381% / 0.01338135
32.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
30.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.2 RUS_Catacomb
10.4 Levant_Natufian
7.2 GEO_CHG
0.0 Saka_Kazakh_steppe

19.2% Steppe derived on average so about 20% as I've stated previously which is just about double what G25 suggests. That's a pretty big change imo. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Kurds on average had more than 20% steppe. I think steppe admixture in West Asia has generally been understated over the years on anthroforums. I think it depends on the samples and sample size as well. I don't think you'll get an accurate picture for an ethnic group of 10s of millions based off of 5-10 samples which ignores regional variations among other things as I've brought up before.

Ok it could be a result of not filtering outliers. I typically filter out anything at 25% or above the group average.

[FinalFlash]

Ok it could be a result of not filtering outliers. I typically filter out anything at 25% or above the group average.

Not sure if Vahaduo has that option or not but the kits seem to be fairly homogenous. What does it mean when something is at 25% or above group average?

[Trouble]

Not sure if Vahaduo has that option or not but the kits seem to be fairly homogenous. What does it mean when something is at 25% or above group average?

It is an outlier for whatever reason. Possibly due to contamination or being mixed/displaced.

[SharpFork]

I have a hard time seeing how Kurds are 30% Scythian.

How can it be that Scythians left virtually no trace anywhere except in West Asia where they didn't even exist? They lived in the Eurasian steppe.
Scythian-Cimmerians went through the Caucasus and invaded Assyria, Urartu and the Phrygians in the 8-7th century and later on the Steppe-admixed Parthians went on to conquer all the plateau and leaving local dynasties that ruled their territories for about 8 centuries until the Islamic invasion. Also Turks probably mediated some newer Steppe ancestry too. That could explain some amount of new Steppe ancestry.

I wouldn't call Scythians a genetic dead end, Turks definitely have been influenced by them everywhere they were and I imagine the modern genetics of Afghanistan and surrounds cannot be fully explained by the the initial Iranization, the Hazaras alone show how much Turks influenced an Iranian speaking ethnic group.

[Zoro]

I think you should ask the guy that wrote the article. He is one of my mentors but I think that the basic model of about 70% Iran Chl + 30% Sarmatian/Saka related still holds. His article shows that it has to be Saka related because Turkmenistan IA and Sintashta MLBA which lack the E. Asian Sarmatians/Sakas have did not produce good fits. You can also see this in his dstats also where the biggest difference between Kurds and Chalcolithic Iranians are with E. Eurasian dstats. The shift towards the east and central asia of kurds compared to armenians makes sense in this light as well as kurdish and balochi being on the parthian branch of indo-iranian whereas armenian is on its seperate branch of indo-european.


Anyways if you contact Dilawer directly he will be able to confirm for sure.


He just got back to me. He says that formal stats now shows that Sarmatian-Kazakhstan is a better proxy for the Steppe/E.Asian combo in Kurds. He didn't have those genomes when he did the article. As far as numbers he said that 70-80% native Iranian Chalcolithic + 20-30% Sarmatian depending on the individual Kurd.

Wrt to E. Asian admixture in Kurds he said that whether we use the Lake Baikal Shamanka-EN genomes or whether we use modern Buryats the formal models agree/are consistent with 5-9% E. Asian in Kurds again depending on the individual. I asked him to send me some outputs. He said he will send them later.

He also pointed out that its important to remove the low coverage samples from the run for maximum accuracy and to use as many SNPs as possible. He said there are 3 higher coverage Haji Firuz Chl samples and 7 Shamanka-EN samples that he uses in the run.

[Zoro]

I also asked him about Balochi/Kurdish being on the Parthian sub-branch of Median of Indo-Iranian. He says the events that distanced Kurds from Baloch the most is when after Kurds-Baloch split Kurds absorbed additional Anatolian related and Baloch absorbed additional ASI. These 2 events distanced them the most genetically. He says he can see this because when he removes Anatolia-N from the outgroups in qpAdm Kurds and especially Iranian Baloch converge.

[Zoro]

Maybe the number of Kurdish samples aren't enough on G25? I mean are we really going to get an accurate image of like 5 samples for an entire ethnic group? Do we even know where these Kurds are from?

I mean if the Armenian 'academic' samples differ noticeably to their real life counterparts, then it's possible Kurds do as well. Or any ethnicity for that matter. Besides, on Vahaduo Kurds average around 20% Steppe which is more than what G25 indicates so how do we know which is more accurate, really?

good points

[Eline]

I also asked him about Balochi/Kurdish being on the Parthian sub-branch of Median of Indo-Iranian. He says the events that distanced Kurds from Baloch the most is when after Kurds-Baloch split Kurds absorbed additional Anatolian related and Baloch absorbed additional ASI. These 2 events distanced them the most genetically. He says he can see this because when he removes Anatolia-N from the outgroups in qpAdm Kurds and especially Iranian Baloch converge.Not very smart to remove the Anatolian_NEO from Kurds since Kurds have that Anatolian_NEO already since 6500 BCE. That makes Anatolian_NEO in Kurds 8500 years old. Long before the Medes or Parthians.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?323969-Genomic-History-of-Neolithic-to-Bronze-Age-Anatolia-Northern-Levant-and-Southern-Caucasus


Without Anatolian_NEO there would be no proto-Sumerians and therefore Kurds.

[Zoro]

Not very smart to remove the Anatolian_NEO from Kurds since Kurds have that Anatolian_NEO already since 6500 BCE. That makes Anatolian_NEO in Kurds 8500 years old. Long before the Medes or Parthians.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?323969-Genomic-History-of-Neolithic-to-Bronze-Age-Anatolia-Northern-Levant-and-Southern-Caucasus


Without Anatolian_NEO there would be no proto-Sumerians and therefore Kurds.

What he means is that they both have Anatolia-N but the additional Anatolia-N related kurds received after the split and the additional ASI Baloch received after the split distanced them from before.


Ok the way qpAdm and qpWave work is each source population is compared with each of the 13 outgroups to see how they differ in their f4 scores with the outgroups.

Lets take an example:

Sources:

Kurds
Baloch


Outgroups
Devils-Gate-En
MA1
El Miron
.
.
.

So Kurds are compared with DevilsGate, MA1, ElMiron, etc, etc using f4s
Next Baloch are compared with DevilsGate, MA1, ElMiron, etc, etc using f4s

Now if Kurds and Baloch were brothers their f4 scores with ALL the outgroups would be identical so chi sq would be 0 and p-value1

If Kurds and Baloch are very very very different from each other their individual scores with all these outgroups would be way different from each other and chi sq would be maybe 1000 and p-value 0.0000000000001 in qpWave

What he's saying is the chi sq is very low between Iranian baloch and kurds since they score similar f4 with all those ancient outgroups EXCEPT when you introduce ANATOLIA-N to make 14 outgroups. Then their scores are quite different with regards to Anatolia-N meaning that Kurds and Baloch have similar relationships with MA1, Devilgate, El Miron, etc etc EXCEPT their relationship is different with ANATOLIA-N meaning Kurds received addiitional ENF after the split which caused them to drift apart a little.

Sorry but there no way to explain this without getting techinical

[Eline]

...You are talking about very archaic people. Iran_NEO in people of Baluchistan and in people of Kurdistan is very old. Shared Iran_NEO component in both groups could even predate the Anatolian admixture in Kurds of 6500 BCE. Only around 6500 BCE they detect mixing between Iran_NEO (CHG) and Anatolian_NEO somewhere in the Northern Mesopotamia.
It is possible that Balochi people had already that shared (Iranian) component with the Kurds already before the Gutians/Medes/Parthians.

What I am trying to indicate is that the major split between people of Kurdistan and people of Baluchistan could happen around 6500 BCE, when the Sumerians farmers migrated into SouthCentral Asia (including BMAC).

How much Anatolian_NEO do Balochis have at the first place.

[Zoro]

You are talking about very archaic people. Iran_NEO in people of Baluchistan and in people of Kurdistan is very old. Shared Iran_NEO component in both groups could even predate the Anatolian admixture in Kurds of 6500 BCE. Only around 6500 BCE they detect mixing between Iran_NEO (CHG) and Anatolian_NEO somewhere in the Northern Mesopotamia.
It is possible that Balochi people had already that shared (Iranian) component with the Kurds already before the Gutians/Medes/Parthians.

What I am trying to indicate is that the major split between people of Kurdistan and people of Baluchistan could happen around 6500 BCE, when the Sumerians farmers migrated into SouthCentral Asia (including BMAC).

How much Anatolian_NEO do Balochis have at the first place.

Do you realize how retarded this sounds?

Balochi and Kurdish are NW Iranian languages on the Parthian branch of Median. This means they split after the Parthians (247 BC - 224 AD). So they must have split about 1500 years ago. So in other words Baloch carried their NW Iranian language to Balochistan with them otherwise they would have spoken an E. Iranian language like Pashto. That's why Iranian Baloch are linguistically and genetically closer to Kurds than say Pashtuns to Kurds

As far as how much ENF they have I'll have to look into it but I know it's quite a bit higher than Pashtuns but lower than Lurs/Feyli Kurds which is lower than Kurmanji Kurds

https://i.imgur.com/vDuXrQM.png

[SharpFork]

If you have time you should also investigate Scythian/Iron Age Steppe influence in other Iranian speaking groups in Iran, to see if the admixture event was something that influenced most Iranians universally or if it affect Parthians and Medians more than Persians, which would also be possible and make sense.

[Zoro]

If you have time you should also investigate Scythian/Iron Age Steppe influence in other Iranian speaking groups in Iran, to see if the admixture event was something that influenced most Iranians universally or if it affect Parthians and Medians more than Persians, which would also be possible and make sense.

I tend to think majority of iranians but yeah that would be something I can look into. I know Sistan province in E. Iran is named after Saka as in Sakistan

[SharpFork]

I tend to think majority of iranians but yeah that would be something I can look into. I know Sistan province in E. Iran is named after Saka as in Sakistan
Were pre-Saka populations from Sistan west or east Iranic?

[Halgurd]

I tend to think majority of iranians but yeah that would be something I can look into. I know Sistan province in E. Iran is named after Saka as in Sakistan

Similar to the Kurdish town of Saqqez which is thought to be named after them.

[Zoro]

Were pre-Saka populations from Sistan west or east Iranic?

Well W. and E. Iran was under the Medes and Parthians from about 2700 years to 1800 years ago so during that time I would tend to think the language would have been closest to one of the Kurdish dialects. E. Iranian languages must have been spoken east of Khorasan and Sistan most likely in Bactria and Arachosia and Gandhara.

We have the Shahr-e-Sohkteh samples from about 4000 years ago that are very similar to Iran-N and those coincide with the Helmand and Jiroft cultures but that would have been before the east-west Iranian split. Did they speak Avestan or dravidian like Elamite? I think both W. and E. Iranian borrow from Avestan (which seems related to Sanskrit) but E. Iranian such as Pashto more so than W. Iranian

So the short answer in SE Iran probably Iran-N like whereas NE Iran BMAC like perhaps but based on whatever genetic analysis I have seen so far it seems that Pashtuns and Tajiks have more Saka DNA than Kurds and just like Kurds they also likely have some Parthan ancestry

[Zoro]

Similar to the Kurdish town of Saqqez which is thought to be named after them.

yes

[SharpFork]

Well W. and E. Iran was under the Medes and Parthians from about 2700 years to 1800 years ago so during that time I would tend to think the language would have been closest to one of the Kurdish dialects. E. Iranian languages must have been spoken east of Khorasan and Sistan most likely in Bactria and Arachosia and Gandhara.

We have the Shahr-e-Sohkteh samples from about 4000 years ago that are very similar to Iran-N and those coincide with the Helmand and Jiroft cultures but that would have been before the east-west Iranian split. Did they speak Avestan or dravidian like Elamite? I think both W. and E. Iranian borrow from Avestan (which seems related to Sanskrit) but E. Iranian such as Pashto more so than W. Iranian

So the short answer in SE Iran probably Iran-N like whereas NE Iran BMAC like perhaps but based on whatever genetic analysis I have seen so far it seems that Pashtuns and Tajiks have more Saka DNA than Kurds and just like Kurds they also likely have some Parthan ancestry
Arachosia blends into Sistan pretty neatly, there is no hard border so I wonder if there was even a stable linguistic border, maybe it's better to imagine it a linguistic continuum?

I believe we have 2 equally sized clusters in Shahr-e-Sohkteh, one with high ASI(15-40%) and another with low(0-10%), obviously the high ASI one is probably not representative of most iron age Eastern Iranian. Avestan is definitely Iranian and not Indo-Aryan, but it's place within the East vs West dichotomy is not clear.

We definitely need Afghani and SE Iran/SW Pakistan ancient samples, there are way too many migrations that can mask the ancient situation.