The origin of E-V13 is north West Africa

[Halgurd]

The oldest E-M78 we have are from North-West Africa, from Taforalt in modern day Morocco. These are:
E-M78 (15077-13908 ybp)
E-M78 (x4) (15077-13908 ybp)
E-M78 (15077-13908 ybp)

There are also lot of samples with E-M78 from the Gran Canaria dated 1410-750 ybp. I think north-west Africa seems to be the likely origin of E-M78. Lack of ancient samples of E-M78 from north east Africa, and the abundance of ancient E-M78 from north west Africa, makes me skeptical about the current theory of origin.
The oldest E-V13 we have is from north east Spain from the Avellaner cave (Cardium Pottery culture) -7000ybp

I’m not an expert but I think the current theories about E-V13 being born in west Asia or the Balkans is outdated. I think it might have originated in south west Europe around the Iberian peninsula, or perhaps in north west Africa, and it gradually migrated eastwards. I think it’s probable though E-M35 was somewhere around Eastern Africa.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=46.15873186015129%2C23.963886054679058&z=6

What does everyone else think?

[Luso]

While the very basal root of the branch of the HAPLOGROUP E is African, this particular subclade can be attributed to farmers-- at least that is what I think. I wouldn't be surprised if it originated in northwest Africa. There most have been some major migrations. Since the 7,000-year-old Neolithic farmer from northern Spain had E1b1b V13, he has been in Europe for quite a long time. I bet it spreads to forestry, but I don't know it happened earlier. This does not clarify that the high volume of E1b1b in central France is 10-15% and 15-20%. This explains, however, all the E1b1b in that stretch from Romania to Germany and southern Sweden and Norway. However, about 10% of South-Eastern Europe still does not belong to E1b1b V13. Its distribution seems quite similar to that of Linear potter culture and Rossen from our migration maps of Europe. But mainly because of the spread of the Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 and the spread of the Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 which significantly changed the Y DNA in Eastern and Western Europe. Who knows what the percentages for each haplogroup might have been before that. And those Indo European groups may have modified the prominence of E1b1b, I2a, and G2a in some regions.

Y-DNA hg 'E' is a weird haplogroup! Maybe there's some correlation between this hg and the Mediterranean-admixture?

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/late_neolithic_europe.gif

[Halgurd]

Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in north-eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13

[catgeorge]

Its one of the oldest haplos in Europe - it is also likely that I + J came from Africa as well.

[Adamm]

Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in north-eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13

E-V13 with Iberomaurusian origins is the most logical theory at the moment.

[Synapsid]

E-V13 with Iberomaurusian origins is the most logical theory at the moment.

As I said in the pevious taforalt thread, E came from ANA in Iberomasurian

[Halgurd]

The mtdna of the Taforalt skeletons was almost exclusively u6, except for 1 individual. Maybe this was the original mtdna paired with E-M78/E-V13?

[Joso]

I always knew it!
I could have done a bet.

[Synapsid]

The oldest E-M78 we have are from North-West Africa, from Taforalt in modern day Morocco. These are:
E-M78 (15077-13908 ybp)
E-M78 (x4) (15077-13908 ybp)
E-M78 (15077-13908 ybp)

There are also lot of samples with E-M78 from the Gran Canaria dated 1410-750 ybp. I think north-west Africa seems to be the likely origin of E-M78. Lack of ancient samples of E-M78 from north east Africa, and the abundance of ancient E-M78 from north west Africa, makes me skeptical about the current theory of origin.
The oldest E-V13 we have is from north east Spain from the Avellaner cave (Cardium Pottery culture) -7000ybp

I’m not an expert but I think the current theories about E-V13 being born in west Asia or the Balkans is outdated. I think it might have originated in south west Europe around the Iberian peninsula, or perhaps in north west Africa, and it gradually migrated eastwards. I think it’s probable though E-M35 was somewhere around Eastern Africa.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=46.15873186015129%2C23.963886054679058&z=6

What does everyone else think?

Natufians got E from Taforalt admixture, via the mashubians. Its was the dominated Y-DNA (with some Anatolian_N Y-DNA such as T and G on the side) until the Bronze, when Iran_N/Iran_Chl/CHG linages began to dominated the rest of the middle with J. I see Levent_N/PPNB carrying E males as the spreaders of Afro Asiatic languages

[Joso]

I always knew it!
I could have done a bet.

Ok maybe not exactly from "northwest africa" but i always had knew highly that it came from a very northern place in Africa

[Synapsid]

The mtdna of the Taforalt skeletons was almost exclusively u6, except for 1 individual. Maybe this was the original mtdna paired with E-M78/E-V13?

U6 was found in Dzudzuana samples, Taforalt was 55% Dzudzuana related and 45% ANA.

[Halgurd]

Natufians got E from Taforalt admixture, via the mashubians. Its was the dominated Y-DNA (with some Anatolian_N Y-DNA such as T and G on the side) until the Bronze, when Iran_N/Iran_Chl/CHG linages began to dominated the rest of the middle with J. I see Levent_N/PPNB carrying E males as the spreaders of Afro Asiatic languages

Yes but Natufians were a different clade. They were E-M123 which is not ancestral to V13.

[Synapsid]

Yes but Natufians were a different clade. They were E-M123 which is not ancestral to V13.

I was talking about E-M215 in general not just M123. Natufians had other E clades aswell. Either way, they detected omotic and taforalt releated ancesty in Natufians. I believe pre-E levatine hunter gatherers was CT* before the mashubian intrusion

[Daos777]

As I said in the pevious taforalt thread, E came from ANA in Iberomasurian

So pure ANA would have been almost exclusively E? Also can you post a link that shows taforalt samples score dzudzuna? I thought Iberomaurusians were like 80 percent plus pure ANA.

[Synapsid]

So pure ANA would have been almost exclusively E? Also can you post a link that shows taforalt samples score dzudzuna? I thought Iberomaurusians were like 80 percent plus pure ANA.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1

Natufians were 20% CT, I believe pre-E levatine hunter gatherers was CT* before the mashubian intrusion

[Daos777]

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1

Natufians were 20% CT, I believe pre-E levatine hunter gatherers was CT* before the mashubian intrusion

That link doesn’t really say anything about Iberomaurusian genetics. I remember reading somewhere else that Iberomaurusians were mainly ANA and some sub Saharan admixture. Genetically they were different from natufians. Natufians did have a good chunk of admixture from North Africa but either way they were different due to local hunter gatherer admixture and other admixtures. They were also phenotypically different from skeletal comparisons made between them. Iberomaurusians were pure mechtoids and natufians weren’t. And natufians aren’t important in the conversation of where E-V13 comes from because not a single Natufian sample was found to be carrying E-M78.


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[Cristiano viejo]

It seems that Rocinante was banned for saying the truth after all :fest42::fest42:

[catgeorge]

It seems that Rocinante was banned for saying the truth after all :fest42::fest42:

Except R1b is Afroasiatic which he did not like to mention only troll people with E like a wild monkey.

[Daos777]

While the very basal root of the branch of the HAPLOGROUP E is African, this particular subclade can be attributed to farmers-- at least that is what I think. I wouldn't be surprised if it originated in northwest Africa. There most have been some major migrations. Since the 7,000-year-old Neolithic farmer from northern Spain had E1b1b V13, he has been in Europe for quite a long time. I bet it spreads to forestry, but I don't know it happened earlier. This does not clarify that the high volume of E1b1b in central France is 10-15% and 15-20%. This explains, however, all the E1b1b in that stretch from Romania to Germany and southern Sweden and Norway. However, about 10% of South-Eastern Europe still does not belong to E1b1b V13. Its distribution seems quite similar to that of Linear potter culture and Rossen from our migration maps of Europe. But mainly because of the spread of the Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 and the spread of the Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 which significantly changed the Y DNA in Eastern and Western Europe. Who knows what the percentages for each haplogroup might have been before that. And those Indo European groups may have modified the prominence of E1b1b, I2a, and G2a in some regions.

Y-DNA hg 'E' is a weird haplogroup! Maybe there's some correlation between this hg and the Mediterranean-admixture?

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/late_neolithic_europe.gif

To which farmers though? E-V13 was the least represented haplogroup among Neolithic farmers. Almost non existent.


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[Joso]

Except R1b is Afroasiatic which he did not like to mention only troll people with E like a wild monkey.

R is proto-australoid from Mongolia, there is a thread on it

[Luso]

To which farmers though? E-V13 was the least represented haplogroup among Neolithic farmers. Almost non existent.


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There was a sample found in Spain 7,000 yrs ago. Neolithic age and farming were prevalent. That is my prediction at least. What do you think?

[Daos777]

There was a sample found in Spain 7,000 yrs ago. Neolithic age and farming were prevalent. That is my prediction at least. What do you think?

Yeah, but that says nothing about how it entered Europe. What we do know is that it was for sure not a major Neolithic farmer lineage like G and assimilated hunter gatherer I2. Out of 69 samples it appeared 1 time. To me all this means is that it entered Europe somehow else. Not with Neolithic farmers.


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[Coastal Elite]

Yeah, but that says nothing about how it entered Europe. What we do know is that it was for sure not a major Neolithic farmer lineage like G and assimilated hunter gatherer I2. Out of 69 samples it appeared 1 time. To me all this means is that it entered Europe somehow else. Not with Neolithic farmers.


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It moved from North Africa into Europe through elites. Might have started when Cleopatra banged a Euro dude and infused his Y-DNA with superhuman Egyptian vag fluid. Outside the Balkans, it's a high class, above the fray halplogroup.

[Daos777]

It moved from North Africa into Europe through elites. Might have started when Cleopatra banged a Euro dude and infused his Y-DNA with superhuman Egyptian vag fluid. Outside the Balkans, it's a high class, above the fray halplogroup.

That might have happened but Cleopatra's vag juice most likely had a E-V22 smell to it, so more research needs to be done to know for sure.

[PaleoEuropean]

Its one of the oldest haplos in Europe - it is also likely that I + J came from Africa as well.

Not really IJ split from IJK which split in West Asia. Even GHIJK is West Asian.

[Coastal Elite]

Not really IJ split from IJK which split in West Asia. Even GHIJK is West Asian.

I and E are OG haplogroups. We can't let R1b hold us down

[PaleoEuropean]

I and E are OG haplogroups. We can't let R1b hold us down

Joking aside E probably doesn't come from Africa either, most recent hypothesis put all the earlier splits somewhere in Asia, even I's ancestor that split from R's probably happened somewhere near India.

[Daos777]

Joking aside E probably doesn't come from Africa either, most recent hypothesis put all the earlier splits somewhere in Asia, even I's ancestor that split from R's probably happened somewhere near India.

Yeah I agree with that. E split from the others in Asia and back migrated to Africa. Iberomaurusians couldn’t have U6 mtDNA if that didn’t happen. The only true native African Y-DNA is A and B.


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[PaleoEuropean]

Yeah I agree with that. E split from the others in Asia and back migrated to Africa. Iberomaurusians couldn’t have U6 mtDNA if that didn’t happen. The only true native African Y-DNA is A and B.


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Even that could change in the future unfortunately ancient samples are rare, we base everything we know from the Copper age to the beginning of time based off less than 100 skeletons; with the massive changes the earth has had since the beginning of humanity we may never know, if people lived in Doggerland which is now ocean, where else could they have lived?

[catgeorge]

Not really IJ split from IJK which split in West Asia. Even GHIJK is West Asian.

Possibly - but also likely it mutated in West Asia originally in Africa - E went straight to Europe

[PaleoEuropean]

Possibly - but also likely it mutated in West Asia originally in Africa - E went straight to Europe

I split in most likely in Anatolia or the Caucus, it is virtually non-existent outside of Europe. The only non-Euro population to carry it was Iranians and in tiny amounts in the Levant. If it originated in Africa it would still exist there outside European colonizers. The likelihood I originated anywhere but Western Asia is pretty much nil with what we know about the evolution of haplogroups.

https://i.imgur.com/EmbCLSi.png

[catgeorge]

I split in most likely in Anatolia or the Caucus, it is virtually non-existent outside of Europe. The only non-Euro population to carry it was Iranians and in tiny amounts in the Levant. If it originated in Africa it would still exist there outside European colonizers. The likelihood I originated anywhere but Western Asia is pretty much nil with what we know about the evolution of haplogroups.

https://i.imgur.com/EmbCLSi.png

Thats only a theory though. Oldest known human settlement is 300k years in North Africa and the origins of the middle stone age https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2017Natur.546..293R/abstract
we also know early homo spaien admixture with neanderthals in west asia some 270k years ago https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500885/

No matter how one looks at it - middle paleolithic was mostly out of Africa.There would have only been only a handful of homo sapiens then.

[catgeorge]

I split in most likely in Anatolia or the Caucus, it is virtually non-existent outside of Europe. The only non-Euro population to carry it was Iranians and in tiny amounts in the Levant. If it originated in Africa it would still exist there outside European colonizers. The likelihood I originated anywhere but Western Asia is pretty much nil with what we know about the evolution of haplogroups.

https://i.imgur.com/EmbCLSi.png

Thats only a theory though. Oldest known human settlement is 300k years in North Africa and the origins of the middle stone age https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2017Natur.546..293R/abstract
we also know early homo spaien admixture with neanderthals in west asia some 270k years ago https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500885/

No matter how one looks at it - middle paleolithic was mostly out of Africa.There would have only been only a handful of homo sapiens then.

[yamagi]

In one word the Balkans was a BBCpie

[catgeorge]

In one word the Balkans was a BBCpie

Sure - Greeks were kings of the world for a total of 2700 years - America has barely stumbled passed year 50. DOn't know where you are - but likely even regionally you were insignificant.

[TheLigurian]

Its one of the oldest haplos in Europe - it is also likely that I + J came from Africa as well.

Ooooh hoho wait there little fella, don't compare a predominant african foreigner haplogroup with I, please.

[yamagi]

Sure - Greeks were kings of the world for a total of 2700 years - America has barely stumbled passed year 50. DOn't know where you are - but likely even regionally you were insignificant.

Big ol' Pelasgian BBC monster freaks terrosized the Balkans for 2000 years

[catgeorge]

Ooooh hoho wait there little fella, don't compare a predominant african foreigner haplogroup with I, please.

Suck it up princess. homo sapiens then werent africans so don't sweat it.. you can sleep safely at night .

[catgeorge]

Big ol' Pelasgian BBC monster freaks terrosized the Balkans for 2000 years

Then kneeled to the dick swinging Myceneans..... such is life.

[TheLigurian]

Suck it up princess. homo sapiens then werent africans so don't sweat it.. you can sleep safely at night .

E countries are pred. African admixed and are part of the called third world, I societies alongside with J, O and R1 are part of the first world. Don't compare and don't insult me.

[catgeorge]

E countries are pred. African admixed and are part of the called third world, I societies alongside with J, O and R1 are part of the first world. Don't compare and don't insult me.

I didnt insult you - but you need to harden up to facts if you want to contribute - if you can do better than harvard then be my guest.

I am R1b - but still prefer facts over ones preferred biased fantasies.

[yamagi]

E countries are pred. African admixed and are part of the called third world, I societies alongside with J, O and R1 are part of the first world. Don't compare and don't insult me.

All your great emperors were sissygasm on that BBC, that's how the Southern half of your country ended up being an extension of Afro Hellenic-Levantine diaspora.

[TheLigurian]

I didnt insult you - but you need to harden up to facts if you want to contribute - if you can do better than harvard then be my guest.

I am R1b - but still prefer facts over ones preferred biased fantasies.

If you see a map of haplogroup distribution, and one of GDP per capita, it would almost match perfectly, i think that the haplogroups is the most important genetic marker and not that lie of 23andme or ancestrydna, that's why i am not really into genetics and since my cousin told what is our paternal haplogroup, i had enough information.

[catgeorge]

If you see a map of haplogroup distribution, and one of GDP per capita, it would almost match perfectly, i think that the haplogroups is the most important genetic marker and not that lie of 23andme or ancestrydna, that's why i am not really into genetics and since my cousin told what is our paternal haplogroup, i had enough information.

If not from Harvard or known university then bust. You can use it for your own monkey spanking.

[TheLigurian]

All your great emperors were sissygasm on that BBC, that's how the Southern half of your country ended up being an extension of Afro Hellenic-Levantine diaspora.

I know that the southern part of my extraordinary country is highly hellenic influenced, and that's why i feel a brotherhood with greeks, one of my best friend is from Greece actually. But afro? The only afro in Europe is Albania, it's a fact.

[Axios]

It moved from North Africa into Europe through elites. Might have started when Cleopatra banged a Euro dude and infused his Y-DNA with superhuman Egyptian vag fluid. Outside the Balkans, it's a high class, above the fray halplogroup.

Wasn't Cleopatra greek?

[Axios]

If you see a map of haplogroup distribution, and one of GDP per capita, it would almost match perfectly, i think that the haplogroups is the most important genetic marker and not that lie of 23andme or ancestrydna, that's why i am not really into genetics and since my cousin told what is our paternal haplogroup, i had enough information.

haplogroups dont tell your full origins, only a little part of them.

[TheLigurian]

haplogroups dont tell your full origins, only a little part of them.

Are you just serious you immigrant? Of course they say only a small part of your ancestry.

[Axios]

Are you just serious you immigrant? Of course they say only a small part of your ancestry.

Woah! we have an italian Cristiano Viejo. Go fucking cook some pasta for me boy.

[TheLigurian]

Woah! we have an italian Cristiano Viejo. Go fucking cook some pasta for me boy.

Get the hell out of Barcelona, you fucking muslim immigrant. You should be licking my balls instead of stealing wallets there, in Rome or in Paris. We have enough of your kind.

[Axios]

Get the hell out of Barcelona, you fucking muslim immigrant. You should be licking my balls instead of stealing wallets there, in Rome or in Paris. We have enough of your kind.

Shut ur racist ass mouth and go cook some pasta for me boy while i steal your jobs and your women and blablabla. Fucking braindead nerd.

[Bosniensis]

Are you just serious you immigrant? Of course they say only a small part of your ancestry.

Greetings I2 neighbor, why u allowed those R1b's to eat you alive?

[Axios]

Are you just serious you immigrant? Of course they say only a small part of your ancestry.

Btw ur ancestors are ashamed of you, who the fuck are u to talk about immigrants? America is full of italian immigrants. People like you tend to end like this in your own country, remember:

https://www.lavanguardia.com/r/GODO/LV/p7/WebSite/2020/04/28/Recortada/img_tamiguet_20200425-172536_imagenes_lv_otras_fuentes_no_archivables_mu ssolini-kk3C-U487110075126IB-992x558@LaVanguardia-Web.jpg

[TheLigurian]

Shut ur racist ass mouth and go cook some pasta for me boy while i steal your jobs and your women and blablabla. Fucking braindead nerd.

Genetically, you don't have the capacity to steal the job i have actually, you have the capacity and the guts to steal, rape and kill, might be due your 50% negroid blood. You said before the name of what seems to be the leader of the spaniards here and who defend his people and country here in this forum, i hope he reads you soon, because he actually has the worst part: Having you, raper, in his country. Do not cross to Italy.

[Axios]

Genetically, you don't have the capacity to steal the job i have actually, you have the capacity and the guts to steal, rape and kill, might be due your 50% negroid blood. You said before the name of what seems to be the leader of the spaniards here and who defend his people and country here in this forum, i hope he reads you soon, because he actually has the worst part: Having you, raper, in his country. Do not cross to Italy.

I might have the capacity to kill you with my fingers, little weazel, unlike you, that keeps talking stupid stuff after a keyboard hidden in his little house, with scoliosi, i eat mongrels like CV alive, stupid right wing cunts from Vox, and what are you? a delusional incel angry at his life because some immigrant fucked your crush? get a life u nerd. Luckily i know real italians are not like you. La Sporca Dozzina.

[TheLigurian]

Greetings I2 neighbor, why u allowed those R1b's to eat you alive?

Heeey mate, good to see an I2. My haplo must be from balcanic intercourse in North Italy, but i'm not sure. The people i know in Genova and Rome that has tested is either R1b or J, i'm "alone" on this.

[TheLigurian]

Btw ur ancestors are ashamed of you, who the fuck are u to talk about immigrants? America is full of italian immigrants. People like you tend to end like this in your own country, remember:

https://www.lavanguardia.com/r/GODO/LV/p7/WebSite/2020/04/28/Recortada/img_tamiguet_20200425-172536_imagenes_lv_otras_fuentes_no_archivables_mu ssolini-kk3C-U487110075126IB-992x558@LaVanguardia-Web.jpg

Are you seriously comparing the italian diaspora in all America with your murderer diaspora in this century you fucking subhuman? This is incredible... And judging by your shit talking, you are leftie as fuck, like the communist mexican with the simpson username.

This forum has a real issue with non-european members.

[Axios]

Are you seriously comparing the italian diaspora in all America with your murderer diaspora in this century you fucking subhuman? This is incredible... And judging by your shit talking, you are leftie as fuck, like the communist mexican with the simpson username.

This forum has a real issue with non-european members.

Lmao, italian mafias really didnt murder at all pal. fucking idiot. They caused more problems that current "subhuman muslim immigrants" you dream off every day.

[Axios]

Also, Stormfront might be the forum you are looking for. I still can't believe admins here dont take action against neonazi scum like you. One of the reasons i leaved this forum.

[Daos777]

Y’all some fags


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[Caballero]

The precursor to that Spanish E-V13 (let's say the parent mutation of E-V13 which is E-L618) was found in Cardium Pottery culture in Dalmatia, and we all know that the first occurrence of Cardium Pottery Culture happened in Epirus, then in Southern Albania > Albania > Croatia > Italy and Spain. Despite that, archeologists, long time ago noted some similiraties of Cardium Pottery with Natufian and Iberomaurusian cultures. Originally, the parent of E-V13 was probably a minority among either Natufians or lived somewhere inbetween Natufians and Anatolian Farmers.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Cardial_map.png

[Daos777]

The precursor to that Spanish E-V13 (let's say the parent mutation of E-V13 which is E-L618) was found in Cardium Pottery culture in Dalmatia, and we all know that the first occurrence of Cardium Pottery Culture happened in Epirus, then in Southern Albania > Albania > Croatia > Italy and Spain. Despite that, archeologists, long time ago noted some similiraties of Cardium Pottery with Natufian and Iberomaurusian cultures. Originally, the parent of E-V13 was probably a minority among either Natufians or lived somewhere inbetween Natufians and Anatolian Farmers.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Cardial_map.png


It being found among Cardium pottery culture only confirms that it had presence in Southern Europe. It doesn’t confirm that it came from the Levant with the originators of the culture. So far there is nothing linking E-V13 to the Levant because no E-M78 has ever been found in Levant or Anatolia. So all of this is just speculation that doesn’t conform to actual physical evidence. I prefer to use physical evidence approach and the only conclusion is that it came directly from North Africa(Iberomaurusians) to Southern Europe.

[Caballero]

It being found among Cardium pottery culture only confirms that it had presence in Southern Europe. It doesn’t confirm that it came from the Levant with the originators of the culture. So far there is nothing linking E-V13 to the Levant because no E-M78 has ever been found in Levant or Anatolia. So all of this is just speculation that doesn’t conform to actual physical evidence. I prefer to use physical evidence approach and the only conclusion is that it came directly from North Africa(Iberomaurusians) to Southern Europe.

We have a very limited amount of aDNA.

[PaleoEuropean]

It being found among Cardium pottery culture only confirms that it had presence in Southern Europe. It doesn’t confirm that it came from the Levant with the originators of the culture. So far there is nothing linking E-V13 to the Levant because no E-M78 has ever been found in Levant or Anatolia. So all of this is just speculation that doesn’t conform to actual physical evidence. I prefer to use physical evidence approach and the only conclusion is that it came directly from North Africa(Iberomaurusians) to Southern Europe.

I agree people confuse culture and language as being definitive of genetics. The archaeological records only represent what is found not what hasn't been found yet. I don't think it came from South or West Africa though.

[Daos777]

I agree people confuse culture and language as being definitive of genetics. The archaeological records only represent what is found not what hasn't been found yet. I don't think it came from South or West Africa though.

Where do you think it came from?

[PaleoEuropean]

Where do you think it came from?

Probably somewhere near Egypt or some part of land that is now submerged in that region. E radiates from the sea in the region in terms of concentration.

[Brutus]

We have a very limited amount of aDNA.

It's not necessary to retain some of the North African admixture. In every place, after 3-4 generations of mixing the descendants become autosomally related to the populations in the area they live in. So while your paternal lineage links your paternal ancestors to a migration from northwest Africa, you're still autosomally from where you are.

[Brutus]

Duplicate

[Caballero]

It's not necessary to retain some of the North African admixture. In every place, after 3-4 generations of mixing the descendants become autosomally related to the populations in the area they live in. So while your paternal lineage links your paternal ancestors to a migration from northwest Africa, you're still autosomally from where you are.

We already know that, but a NW African origin is far-fetched. Taforalt/Iberomaurusians were dead-end lineages. E-V13 has brother clades in Egypt. Its ancestor left Egypt hypothetically somewhere 10 thousand years ago, so the most probable route is Levant/Anatolia/Balkans.

[PaleoEuropean]

It's not necessary to retain some of the North African admixture. In every place, after 3-4 generations of mixing the descendants become autosomally related to the populations in the area they live in. So while your paternal lineage links your paternal ancestors to a migration from northwest Africa, you're still autosomally from where you are.

Thats very true. Autosomal dna isn't deffinitive of indicating origin. DNA inheritance is also 100% random. You get a 100% random half from each parent, you could be 90% Amerindian when your parents are like 20% in theory.

[Brutus]

Thats very true. Autosomal dna isn't definitive of indicating origin. DNA inheritance is also 100% random. You get a 100% random half from each parent, you could be 90% Amerindian when your parents are like 20% in theory.
The issue here is also that, autosomal estimations are not exactly accurate when tested by the usual companies (23andme, FTDNA, Ancestry etc.).

[Daos777]

We already know that, but a NW African origin is far-fetched. Taforalt/Iberomaurusians were dead-end lineages. E-V13 has brother clades in Egypt. Its ancestor left Egypt hypothetically somewhere 10 thousand years ago, so the most probable route is Levant/Anatolia/Balkans.

How do you know Taforalt/Iberomaurusians were dead-end lineages? When the only direct parent to European E-V13 was found there? No where else. Egypt in ancient times was dominated by E-V22 and other E subclades and like I said in Anatolia and Levant E-M78 was NEVER found let alone E-V13. As well as its absence among neolithic farmers? If the most probable route was Levant—>Anatolia—>Balkans the only migration that matches this is that of the Neolithic farmers. Meaning if E-V13 ancestor was present amongst them it should have been present in decent quantities among Neolithic samples in Balkans. But as i said out of 69 samples only one E-V13. That makes 0 sense.

[PaleoEuropean]

The issue here is also that, autosomal estimations are not exactly accurate when tested by the usual companies (23andme, FTDNA, Ancestry etc.).

Very true, they use an algorithm which says it all. Statistics, algorithms etc. are all estimations, they are not meant to be read as absolute fact. I deal with statistics all the time, take statistics to a bank without capital and see if they give you a loan. Every calculator/chip is an anecdotal estimation.

[yamagi]

It's been known that E isn't a European haplogroup, neither J, Q, and certain cubclades of R1a/b

[Daos777]

Probably somewhere near Egypt or some part of land that is now submerged in that region. E radiates from the sea in the region in terms of concentration.

This is where E comes from? Like the oldest samples of it? Because the oldest samples of E are found in North West Africa and until an older sample is found in Egypt the only logical explanation is that E migrated east from north west Africa. This is logical with historical migrations Iberomaursians>Capsian>Natufians and the age of subclades. But that is where the relationship with European E-V13 ends because starting from Capsians their subclades are downstream and parent Clade to European E-V13 being much older than these subclades so E-V13 cant be from here in my opinion.

[PaleoEuropean]

This is where E comes from? Like the oldest samples of it? Because the oldest samples of E are found in North West Africa and until an older sample is found in Egypt the only logical explanation is that E migrated east from north west Africa. This is logical with historical migrations Iberomaursians>Capsian>Natufians and the age of subclades. But that is where the relationship with European E-V13 ends because starting from Capsians their subclades are downstream and parent Clade to European E-V13 being much older than these subclades so E-V13 cant be from here in my opinion.

E-v13 could have came from North West Africa like Morocco, but not Western Africa which is completely different.

[Nassbean]

This is where E comes from? Like the oldest samples of it? Because the oldest samples of E are found in North West Africa and until an older sample is found in Egypt the only logical explanation is that E migrated east from north west Africa. This is logical with historical migrations Iberomaursians>Capsian>Natufians and the age of subclades. But that is where the relationship with European E-V13 ends because starting from Capsians their subclades are downstream and parent Clade to European E-V13 being much older than these subclades so E-V13 cant be from here in my opinion.

It's iberomaurusians who went east and spread their haplogroups in the Near east (that explains the presence of E among natufians) but capsians went to NWA from the Near East

[Halgurd]

The way I see it, and from what current ancient DNA shows which would also explain todays distribution

E-M78 evolved in NW Africa
E-V13 evolved in SW Europe and migrated east
Clades downstream of E-V13 evolved somewhere more Central Europe or most likely the Balkans
E-CTS1273 in particular evolved in East Europe and was carried by Eurasian nomads across Central Asia, Caucasus and West Asia where it's found today. Most if not all non European E-V13 belongs to this clade so that's the only explanation I can think of.

Seems like the only logical explanation rn

[Adamm]

The way I see it, and from what current ancient DNA shows which would also explain todays distribution

E-M78 evolved in NW Africa
E-V13 evolved in SW Europe and migrated east
Clades downstream of E-V13 evolved somewhere more Central Europe or most likely the Balkans
E-CTS1273 in particular evolved in East Europe and was carried by Eurasian nomads across Central Asia, Caucasus and West Asia where it's found today. Most if not all non European E-V13 belongs to this clade so that's the only explanation I can think of.

Seems like the only logical explanation rn

But E-V13 was already found in NW Africa before it evolved in Europe.

[Halgurd]

But E-V13 was already found in NW Africa before it evolved in Europe.

where?

[Caballero]

How do you know Taforalt/Iberomaurusians were dead-end lineages? When the only direct parent to European E-V13 was found there? No where else. Egypt in ancient times was dominated by E-V22 and other E subclades and like I said in Anatolia and Levant E-M78 was NEVER found let alone E-V13. As well as its absence among neolithic farmers? If the most probable route was Levant—>Anatolia—>Balkans the only migration that matches this is that of the Neolithic farmers. Meaning if E-V13 ancestor was present amongst them it should have been present in decent quantities among Neolithic samples in Balkans. But as i said out of 69 samples only one E-V13. That makes 0 sense.

lol, we have so little aDNA from North Africa. BWY, that sample was wrongly assigned to parent clade of E-V13. Taforalt were basal E-M78. They left no descendant.

And it's well known that archeologically, they came from somewhere near Egypt.

[MiloshN]

But E-V13 was already found in NW Africa before it evolved in Europe.

E-v13 originated in Europe and spread from there.

[Adamm]

where?

In one of the Taforalt samples if I'm not mistaken. At least 1 Iberomaurusian was positive for E-V13.

nvm, i think I was wrong.

[Halgurd]

In one of the Taforalt samples if I'm not mistaken. At least 1 Iberomaurusian was positive for E-V13.

" The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*). "

That's the parent lineage bro. E-V13 is E1b1b1a1b1a and the oldest sample for that is Spain.

[axel.aleman]

This are my paternal haplogroup that trace my lineage to the Canarian Islands

[Daos777]

lol, we have so little aDNA from North Africa. BWY, that sample was wrongly assigned to parent clade of E-V13. Taforalt were basal E-M78. They left no descendant.

And it's well known that archeologically, they came from somewhere near Egypt.

Why would there be any aDNA left if E-M78 entered Europe in late Mesolithic? That’s like saying people from Chad carrying R1b should have a good chunk of steppe dna.

Nobody wrongly assigned E-V13 to it. It’s just that is the PARENT clade to E-V13 and it wasn’t found anywhere else. How is it well known archeologically to be somewhere from Egypt when there are no parent clades ever found there? Makes 0 sense. All those E subclades in Egypt are downstream.


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[Caballero]

Why would there be any aDNA left if E-M78 entered Europe in late Mesolithic? That’s like saying people from Chad carrying R1b should have a good chunk of steppe dna.

Nobody wrongly assigned E-V13 to it. It’s just that is the PARENT clade to E-V13 and it wasn’t found anywhere else. How is it well known archeologically to be somewhere from Egypt when there are no parent clades ever found there? Makes 0 sense. All those E subclades in Egypt are downstream.


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Dude, opposing me for the sake of it would not help you. When we get aDNA from Ancient Egypt you'll see the whole picture.

[Daos777]

Dude, opposing me for the sake of it would not help you. When we get aDNA from Ancient Egypt you'll see the whole picture.

I’m not. Just what you’re saying has 0 proof and you’re so sure it’s true. From what period should the aDNA from Egypt be to see the whole picture?


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[Caballero]

I’m not. Just what you’re saying has 0 proof and you’re so sure it’s true. From what period should the aDNA from Egypt be to see the whole picture?


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I wanted to edit the post, but it's too slow. Prehistoric Egypt. Mesolithic mostly. Paleolithic/Mesolithic Egypt has the most advanced prehistoric cultures in the world, no wonder Natufians were partially an offshot of these Paleolithic Egyptians.

[Hashoeva]

all E haplogroups are from MENA origins. just accept the fact. dont be ashamed of your e-v13 north-african hamitic / semitic haplogroup.

[Daos777]

all E haplogroups are from MENA origins. just accept the fact. dont be ashamed of your e-v13 north-african hamitic / semitic haplogroup.

Thanks for your deep insight into this topic.

[Rocinante]

Incredibly i got banned just for saying the truth... People have to chill a bit, sharing a paternal line with Michael Jordan or Morgan Freeman is cool.

[Axios]

Incredibly i got banned just for saying the truth... People have to chill a bit, sharing a paternal line with Michael Jordan or Morgan Freeman is cool.

It aint cool to share it with Hitler tho xD

[Mingle]

Incredibly i got banned just for saying the truth... People have to chill a bit, sharing a paternal line with Michael Jordan or Morgan Freeman is cool.Welcome back. How did you get unbanned?

[Rocinante]

It aint cool to share it with Hitler tho xD

Exactly, that´s the problem, you share haplo with people like Will Smith or Obama, but also with Mussolini and Hitler, that´s not cool.

[Rocinante]

Welcome back. How did you get unbanned?

Thanks.

Because the support of all my friends in this forum, seems to be that all people like me, except albanians. Even greeks loves me, just ask Epirus DNA or catgeorge.

[Daos777]

Exactly, that´s the problem, you share haplo with people like Will Smith or Obama, but also with Mussolini and Hitler, that´s not cool.

Will Smith and Obama are I2a-Din.


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[Halgurd]

E-M78 found in Neolithic Jordan. Taken from anthrogenica. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18885-A-theory-about-the-origin-of-E-V13/page21&p=670899#post670899

E-P147-P177-P2-M215-M35-V68-M78-CTS675/PF2104


Genetiker

Y-SNP calls for I1710

Below are the Y-SNP calls for I1710, a Pre-Pottery Neolithic B sample from the site of ‘Ain Ghazal in Jordan. Positive calls are in bold, and negative calls are in non-bold.

The calls show that I1710 belonged to Y haplogroup E1b1b1a1-CTS675.

[Daos777]

E-M78 found in Neolithic Jordan. Taken from anthrogenica. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18885-A-theory-about-the-origin-of-E-V13/page21&p=670899#post670899

E-P147-P177-P2-M215-M35-V68-M78-CTS675/PF2104

What subclade is that? Related to V-22?

[Halgurd]

What subclade is that? Related to V-22?

Not sure if it can be ancestral to E-V13 but it’s defo e-M78.

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/interactive_tree.php?snps=PF2104%2B

[Daos777]

Not sure if it can be ancestral to E-V13 but it’s defo e-M78.

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/interactive_tree.php?snps=PF2104%2B

“a dead-end lineage (xL618,V22,V12,V65), also very likely not a fully developed M78 since it's CTS4138- (i.e. pre-M78), so it certainly couldn't have been the ancestor of L618. On the other hand, Taforalt samples had ~75% derived SNPs at M78 level, so by the following calculation:

(M78 formation date - TMRCA date) x (percentage of derived SNPs) = 6700 years x 0,75 = 5025 years

they should have been separated from the hypothetical ancestor of all living M78 ~5000 years after the formation of the clade, i.e. ~13000 BC. The sampled Taforalt individuals are dated 13150-11950 BC, which places them in the right time frame to belong to the lineage very closely related to the one to which the actual ancestor of all living M78 belonged.

I'm not saying there's no chance L618 came to the Balkans via Levant and Anatolia (or even via Gibraltar as Bane suggested), I'm just saying it's highly unlikely it originated in the Levant among Natufians. However, currently available aDNA samples from the Middle East don't go in favour of such a path for L618, so I'm still sticking to my Capsian pet theory that L618 came to Europe from the territory of modern Tunisia via Sicily and South Italy in the Late Mesolithic/Early Neolithic.”

I don’t know how correct that post is but yeah it’s most likely wasn’t. Interesting though. First time I’ve seen something even close to E-M78 being found outside of NA.


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[Jana]

So how did E-V13 spread so rapidly in Europe, especially since it is rare to nonexistant in ancient samples we have so far. What is current most logical theory?

[Daos777]

So how did E-V13 spread so rapidly in Europe, especially since it is rare to nonexistant in ancient samples we have so far. What is current most logical theory?

Well E-V13 is spread equally in both R1b and R1a areas and they also exist in areas where Neolithic lineages didn’t survive. So it was assimilated by indo-Europeans, where exactly is the question (most likely globular amphora and cucuteni area) and brought everywhere indo-Europeans went. Or it was more widespread in Europe than current ancient samples prove.

[Jana]

Well E-V13 is spread equally in both R1b and R1a areas and they also exist in areas where Neolithic lineages didn’t survive. So it was assimilated by indo-Europeans, where exactly is the question (most likely globular amphora and cucuteni area) and brought everywhere indo-Europeans went. Or it was more widespread in Europe than current ancient samples prove.

Intresting, but Globural Amphora was I2a2 as far as I know. Cucuteni is more tricky, I think some G2a was found there but also some older E lineages.
You think sea people/pelasgian diffusion is out of question? I'm just curious.

[Daos777]

Intresting, but Globural Amphora was I2a2 as far as I know. Cucuteni is more tricky, I think some G2a was found there but also some older E lineages.
You think sea people/pelasgian diffusion is out of question? I'm just curious.

I don’t believe in sea people theory because how would E be found in Central Asia and parts of Sweden?


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[Halgurd]

I don’t believe in sea people theory because how would E be found in Central Asia and parts of Sweden?


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The Indo European theory is the only one that can explain this tbh

[Halgurd]

Just came across this paper and there is more ancients of interest in Spain. But they are quite young compared to the samples in post 1.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/03/13/363.6432.1230.DC1/aav4040_TablesS1-S5.xlsx

I4269 (2473-2030 calBCE) - E1b1b1a(xE1b1b1a1) (cultural affiliation - Bell Beaker)

I12031 (500-600 CE) - E1b1b1a1b1a

I10853 (989-1153 cal CE) - E1b1b1a1b1

I7498 (1000–1100 CE) - E1b1b1a1b1a (cultural affiliation - Muslim)

I7457 (1100–1300 CE) - E1b1b1a1b1a (cultural affiliation - Muslim)

[Halgurd]

E1b1b1a1b1 in Croatia (6400-5500 BCE)

I3948
mtDNA: N1a1
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=42.21538539606525%2C16.59413952212257&z=7

[Halgurd]

According to yfull, the most recent common ancestor of all E-V13 lived 4800 ybp.
The most recent common ancestor of all E-CTS1273 lived 4500 ybp.

These dates coincide with the “Glinoe Scythian” that is E-CTS1273 dated to 4885-4632 ybp. He was actually not a Scythian though, as he lived a couple thousand years before them. He coincides with the Yamnaya culture, which extended to the western shores of the Black Sea (where Glinoe is located) so it’s possible he belonged to them.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Most E-V13 clades seem to fall under E-CTS1273 according to yfull. I’m thinking, was there a genocide of some sort? Did the invading Indo Europeans kill off most of the non E-CTS1273 clades? If so would that mean that most E-V13 today would actually be direct descendants of the earliest Indo European culture?

A lot of speculation I know. But I can’t think of anything else that explains the lack of non E-CTS1273 clades and so far that clade has only been found in 1 ancient, and that is the “Glinoe Scythian.”

[Joso]

So how did E-V13 spread so rapidly in Europe, especially since it is rare to nonexistant in ancient samples we have so far. What is current most logical theory?

E-V13 is obviously related with neolithic and/or tropical/desert adaptated features.

[TheMaestro]

Why would there be any aDNA left if E-M78 entered Europe in late Mesolithic? That’s like saying people from Chad carrying R1b should have a good chunk of steppe dna.

Nobody wrongly assigned E-V13 to it. It’s just that is the PARENT clade to E-V13 and it wasn’t found anywhere else. How is it well known archeologically to be somewhere from Egypt when there are no parent clades ever found there? Makes 0 sense. All those E subclades in Egypt are downstream.


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Does that even mean something, all people originate from Africa so do halogroups even matter lol

[TheMaestro]

Why would there be any aDNA left if E-M78 entered Europe in late Mesolithic? That’s like saying people from Chad carrying R1b should have a good chunk of steppe dna.

Nobody wrongly assigned E-V13 to it. It’s just that is the PARENT clade to E-V13 and it wasn’t found anywhere else. How is it well known archeologically to be somewhere from Egypt when there are no parent clades ever found there? Makes 0 sense. All those E subclades in Egypt are downstream.


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Does that even mean something, all people originate from Africa so do halogroups even matter lol

[Dorian]

Danaus ,Cadmus ,Pelops ..something of that kind.

[Daos777]

Does that even mean something, all people originate from Africa so do halogroups even matter lol

It does if you care about history and archeology and want to know which group of people or culture specifically your haplogroup is from. And all people originating in Africa doesn’t really say anything specific or meaningful. As people lived apart from each other for 10,000s of years very different phenotypes and cultures emerged even if there was a single ancestral source population. It’s like asking if it matters if a chihuahua is a chihuahua because all dogs come from wolfs.


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[TheMaestro]

It does if you care about history and archeology and want to know which group of people or culture specifically your haplogroup is from. And all people originating in Africa doesn’t really say anything specific or meaningful. As people lived apart from each other for 10,000s of years very different phenotypes and cultures emerged even if there was a single ancestral source population. It’s like asking if it matters if a chihuahua is a chihuahua because all dogs come from wolfs.


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I mean the thing calling us Africans, it's ironic, since everyone comes from Africa XD

[Rocinante]

Funny how E1b1 are using the fact that "everyone comes from Africa". Every haplogroup have it origin and history.

At least we have some worthy carriers of this haplogroup in this forum and in anthrogenica, all of them iberian and non-complexed.

[Daos777]

Funny how E1b1 are using the fact that "everyone comes from Africa". Every haplogroup have it origin and history.

At least we have some worthy carriers of this haplogroup in this forum and in anthrogenica, all of them iberian and non-complexed.

Coming from Africa means absolutely nothing though. North Africa, Paleolithic-Neolithic was mostly cacausoid anyways. That’s the main point to understand. All negroid E subclades are young, much younger than caucasoid cultures in North Africa who spread it to the negroids.


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[Adamm]

There is nothing wrong with carrying E haplogroup.

[Rocinante]

There is nothing wrong with carrying E haplogroup.


Coming from Africa means absolutely nothing though. North Africa, Paleolithic-Neolithic was mostly cacausoid anyways. That’s the main point to understand. All negroid E subclades are young, much younger than caucasoid cultures in North Africa who spread it to the negroids.


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Another 2 decent and worthy carriers of the E haplogroup, and doesn't get butthurted like little kids just because jokes.

[Rocinante]

All i know is:

E-M81 is the main berber haplogroup, E-M78 is the european and egyptian one. The other clades are more complicated to me, i need to learn more about this haplo.

[Adamm]

Is this one accurate?

https://i.imgur.com/DCodJXU.png

[Halgurd]

E-V13 is NOT an African haplogroup. It has never been natively found outside Europe and the modern distribution outside Europe is usually related to IE populations with the exception mainly for Turks. I made the title of the thread wrong it was meant to be E-M78.

E-M78 is African overall though.

[Daos777]

Is this one accurate?

https://i.imgur.com/DCodJXU.png

Dates are on the lower end of estimates but yeah overall pretty accurate. Where did you get this?


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[Halgurd]

Is this one accurate?

https://i.imgur.com/DCodJXU.png

Why are the Egyptians representative of E-M35? Back then there was no such thing as an Egyptian. Egyptian civilisation began around 5,000 years ago and by then E-V13 was already natively established in Europe for thousands of years. This creates the wrong notion that clades downstream of E-M35 all came from Egypt.

I get the idea behind it (its prevalence in Egypt) but we have to remember that haplogroups are much older than any civilisation.

[Adamm]

Why are the Egyptians representative of E-M35? Back then there was no such thing as an Egyptian. Egyptian civilisation began around 5,000 years ago and by then E-V13 was already natively established in Europe for thousands of years. This creates the wrong notion that clades downstream of E-M35 all came from Egypt.

I get the idea behind it (its prevalence in Egypt) but we have to remember that haplogroups are much older than any civilisation.

I think the pic is just for illustration purpose and not necessarily 'Egyptian'.

[Halgurd]

E-V13 is associated with a few southern European and central European pottery cultures. These range from the Iberian peninsula to Greece which means the mutation could have happened anywhere around this area.

The oldest E-V13 as I mentioned has been found in north east Spain, followed by some samples around the Balkans. It is not clear exactly where the mutation took place but certainly in between these areas. Might have even occured in N. Africa or West Asia but again its not clear.

There is an E-M35 sample from Catal Hoyuk (West Anatolia) which correct me if im wrong has not been tested for any more clades downstream. If it turns out to be E-M78 then it could be a game changer as the mutation of E-V13 occurred around this time.

Furthermore TMRCA of all E-V13 lived around 2900BC. This era is associated with the Yamnaya culture mainly and the expansion of the IE languages.

[Mingle]

E-V13 is associated with a few southern European and central European pottery cultures. These range from the Iberian peninsula to Greece which means the mutation could have happened anywhere around this area.

The oldest E-V13 as I mentioned has been found in north east Spain, followed by some samples around the Balkans. It is not clear exactly where the mutation took place but certainly in between these areas. Might have even occured in N. Africa or West Asia but again its not clear.

There is an E-M35 sample from Catal Hoyuk (West Anatolia) which correct me if im wrong has not been tested for any more clades downstream. If it turns out to be E-M78 then it could be a game changer as the mutation of E-V13 occurred around this time.

Furthermore TMRCA of all E-V13 lived around 2900BC. This era is associated with the Yamnaya culture mainly and the expansion of the IE languages.

Do you know where the E-V13 among Kurds comes from?

[Halgurd]

Do you know where the E-V13 among Kurds comes from?

No one knows for sure.

Initially it was thought that it may have been due to Alexander the Great and the Greek invasions but this has no basis anymore because Kurdish (as well as other west Asian) E-V13 clades are slightly different.

1 Kurd who did his big y is E-CTS5856* (or E-CTS1273) negative for all downstream clades. E-CTS5856 is ancestral to most European E-V13. His ftdna ID is 536478.

It is the same clade that was found in the ‘Glinoe Scythian’ who has been dated to 4885-4632 ybp. The paper admittedly states that the dates for this sample may be inaccurate but if true, it means this particular individual was not a Scythian and was most likely associated with the Western Yamna culture. The dates of this sample coincide with the most recent common ancestor of all E-CTS1273 which I find very interesting.

In other words E-V13 in West Asia and the southern Caucasus in general may be the result of incursions of Eurasian nomads into the region.

We are constantly getting new information about E-V13 though so probably in a few years time things will be much clearer.

[JQP4545]

If E-V13 originated in Northwest Africa then why don't we find much Northwest African DNA in Greeks and Albanians?

[Adamm]

If E-V13 originated in Northwest Africa then why don't we find much Northwest African DNA in Greeks and Albanians?

Autosomal DNA can be out-bred within 6 generations (200 years), EM78 entered Europe thousands of years ago.

[Caballero]

I believe the origin of E-V13 is in Late Neolithic Alpine region, it could be North-East Spain, France, Switzerland whatever. The reason for this is robust, the Cardial Croatian Dalmatian E-L618 sample is dated to 7600-7490 YBP (similar timeline in Lengyel/Sopot without the E-V13 mutation) then the Spanish Cardial Neolithic sample with actual E-V13 mutation is dated to 7000 YBP, so the difference in time is 400-500 years, and the trajectory of E-L618 was colonization to west mediterranean, so somewhere in between Croatian Dalmatia and Spain happened the E-V13 mutation. North of North Italy would be a safe bet.

Another reason is that, oldest E-V13 subclades so far are either Germans or Italians, so a region in between modern German living people and Italians is a good bet. Based on modern distribution and TMRCA chances for an origin from Neolithic Balkans, or from Eastern European Cucuteni-Trypillian civilizations are 0%, no E-V13 in Bulgarian EBA, no E-V13 in Northern Serbian EBA as well.

https://i.imgur.com/aOpngDA.png

[zebruh]

Autosomal DNA can be out-bred within 6 generations (200 years), EM78 entered Europe thousands of years ago.Exactly. Thats why autosomal dna is not always reliable alone.